National Opt-Out Day -- anyone participating?

[Mejane]

 

I've had many positive experiences with TSA agents, and I hope that continues - I feel badly that they're bearing the brunt of the frustration for decisions that are made by management. I doubt they like these changes, either.

 

 

 

 

:iagree: Right now they're one of the most despised groups in the US, but they are just doing their job. I don't like the new procedures either, but let's remember to focus our anger where it belongs - on the government.

[Harriet Vane]

Yes. But Mr. "Don't Touch My Junk" addressed this well -- saying he only lets his wife and maybe his doctor touch him in those places. Why should the government have a legal right to touch us there?

 

Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Thank you for saying this so well.

[msjones]

 

Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

This is why I'll be at the airport with my sign and my papers to hand out. I honestly think that many Americans don't know the 4th Amendment.

 

Or if they do know, they don't care. I am aghast that people are so willing to relinquish their constitutional rights.

 

Lots of people say this sort of thing: "I've been through the scanners, they're no big deal. It didn't bother me. The agents were really nice."

 

It's also not really that big of a deal to be randomly pulled over to have your car searched. Those nice, polite cops just look in your car for a few minutes and you're on your way.

 

A random home search wouldn't be such a big deal, either. They just knock on the door, come in and look around and then leave. And the cops would probably be really polite about it.

 

We're at the top of a slippery slope and I'm not going to just sit here and watch our country slide down it.

Edited November 20, 2010 by msjones

[....]

Unfortunately, it's the airlines who will be hurt financially, but this is not airline policy. It's government policy, and the government will not be financially harmed when people stop flying. The airlines will slide toward bankruptcy, and the government will bail them out.

 

Oh, you are probably absolutely correct. It would be more effective to contact your congressional rep or senator. This is just soooo irritating to me. I feel like our society has no concept of human rights and we are treating people like cattle. If we don't want our Grandmas or kids to go through something like this, then we should probably stop and think if what we're doing is OK. And, that's a totally oversimplified way of looking at things, but I think our society is becoming desensitized to people's right to be treated with respect.

[eternalknot]

If I chose to go through the nudie-scanner I would have to remove all of my jewelry? My three pairs of earrings? My wedding rings? My grandmother's diamond? My heirloom ring? And put them, I'm sure, in a bucket shared by zillions of people (germs!! and then the earrings get stuck back through my ears), and hope that I get them back when everything is done? (I'm sure that sort of stuff goes missing the same way laptops do when people don't get through X-ray fast enough).

 

I bought a $5 silk jewelry holder in Chinatown that rolls up everything - earrings, necklaces, bracelet, rings and my watch. It's very small and takes up less room in my purse than a sunglasses case (which might be another idea, now that I think of it). I pack it at home/hotel when I'm getting dressed, and don't put anything on until I've cleared security. I've seen so many of those little buckets tip over and spill, especially when the belt backs up. I've seen people drop watches and belts, but those are more easily found again - I'd never risk it for earrings or rings!

 

I'm probably a little reactionary right now having watched Iron Jawed Angels in class this week (the HBO story of women who fought -- many risking their lives -- for the right of women to vote in our country; I had no idea until now what they went through).

 

I'll bookmark that - sounds really interesting, and inspiring. Very timely lesson in civics and appreciation for those who cleared the road for 'rights' we sometimes take for granted.

 

I am guessing it's cause she is an employee. But no you can't refuse both. If you get chosen for a virtual strip search, and refuse, then it is Mr. Gropey & Feely for you.

 

While I admired EternalKnots post, I am rather irked that employees can bypass, seeing as members who took over the 911 planes were trained pilots in our training facilities. It wouldn't be that far of a stretch to be an employee....

 

I always wear my uniform through security, and I'm certain they've extended professional courtesy in allowing me to bypass a pat-down. I've only once ever set off the metal detector, and it was my ID that set it off (it has a metal clasp, and this MD was super-sensitive). They had me send the ID through the machine and allowed me a second chance to walk through without setting off the MD. I did not, and was allowed on my way; I'm sure to the great relief of us both. I bought a plastic ID holder that day.

 

The difference between now and pre-9/11 is that we've all been subjected to more thorough investigation (including mandatory fingerprinting) since then. We've been cleared enough that they allow us unrestricted access to the aircraft and facilities any how, you know? The 9/11 pilots weren't trained at airline facilities, nor were they posing as airline employees. Nor was Richard Reid. They didn't have to, then, and they don't have to now. If we can't be trusted to continue on about our jobs, we shouldn't be allowed to show up at all - much less, attempt to get through security several days each week.

 

I understand why we have to remove our shoes. I understand why they make us throw away our water bottles and hygiene products over 3oz, even though we can buy both on the other side of security. Those things are inconveniences (that crewmembers are also exempt from) but where they're coming from makes some sense if I try to see it from their POV. These scans and aggressive pat-downs make no sense to me, and I've spent a significant amount of time hoping to find some way that they would - even a tiny bit. Nothing; nada.

 

I keep an open mind, and I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm a generally compliant person, who comes from a generally compliant ethnicity and gender. If something can make a bit of sense, even if I don't agree with it, I'll comply. This doesn't, and I won't. Fortunately, I don't need the job. I know lots of others who do. A fine would be challenging to pay, but that's a hill I choose to die on.

 

I do see reason to do everyone, or no one - meaning, to include everyone (kids, elderly, nuns, crew) or no one at all. But I'm also being admittedly selfish, and if I can find a way to opt myself out - I will take it. Once I have my "oxygen mask" on, so to speak, I can better help those around me with theirs. And I will. The unions may not, but the airlines will (for whatever financial interest) and I will.

[FO4UR]

Was that supposed to be a joke? There's an $11,000 fine for not cooperating with the frisk (a guy was recently fined $10k just for telling them not to "touch his junk"). If you punch them, you'll be arrested and jailed for assault, plus probably face a civil suit.

 

This attitude of "Not me! I'd punch 'em!" just bothers me because it sort of veils the real issue here. The government has made you powerless. There is virtually nothing you could do to resist that would not result in grossly large fines and possible jail time. They have the ability to take away your rights and invade your privacy on a whim, and there is nothing you can do about it if you do not boycott the airlines entirely.

 

I'm also curious about your definition of "too frisky." Do I need to go into the sordid details of what a cavity search entails?

 

:iagree:

 

If the gov't can mandate a search of your genitals merely b/c it wants to, what else is there????

 

I don't kid myself...if this is allowed in airports it will soon be mandated for the subway, public buildings, etc...

 

I'm a reasonable person, I've flown to England the week after Lockerbie, flew to Orlando 8 days after 9/11 (on first flights that reopened..we were scheduled to fly out on 9/12)...I'm not a fearful flyer,

 

But!! When flying through Amsterdam this past May, I had 'THE PATDOWN'...it is WRONG!! You know when all those red flags hit you like a brick when you see a suspicious character lurking in a park or fair? I felt as though I was trapped and literally was being molested..I had to pretened to laugh it off so my kids would not see my fear, but if they tried for one second to pull that on my daughters or even my son, I would have vehemently REFUSED!

Their hands pushed into my private parts, they put their hands all over my breasts, under on top on side, several times!!!

Mine was a lady, but the expression on her face and her demeanor gave me NO comfort..I think she actually liked making others feel uncomfortable..that was a hard realization...it added to the whole molestation feel....we fly in March to LA and if they pull that, I will refuse.

 

Tara

 

I know saying this reminds me of Nazi Germany will make half the board laugh and ridicule me, but GEESH the bolded part certainly parallels the kind of desensitization that Nazi soldiers had to undergo in order to inflict the crimes they did to innocent people.

 

And, yes, I *do* think touching another persons genitals *is* criminal. The gov't hasn't reached the horrific level of the holocaust...but like the frog in the kettle...

 

(ducking for cover...grabbing my flame retardant suit:tongue_smilie:)

 

I'd also like to point out that the police cannot perform cavity searches without first obtaining a warrant from a judge. Just a little perspective on just how much of an infringement this really is.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

In fact, people go to jail for touching others genitals...it's called molestation.

 

Pedophiles everywhere have found a dream job!:ack2:

[milovany]

Oh, you are probably absolutely correct. It would be more effective to contact your congressional rep or senator.

 

I respectfully -- but wholeheartedly -- disagree. Writing to our representatives and senators is a good start (depending on your representatives), but just doing this is not going to cause the changes to be made. Maybe I'm jaded in this; I do contact our Senators, but always seem to get a nice form email back from them telling me why they're going to do the opposite of what I asked.

 

Was contacting representatives -- or were protests -- more effective in bringing about change through the civil rights movement? Was contacting representatives -- or were protests -- more effective in bringing about change in the suffragist movement? The women of the National Women's Association were the first ones ever to picket the White House -- and they were assaulted by the public while policemen watched, thrown in jail and then when they went on a hunger strike, all so you and I could VOTE, were force fed (have you seen this process? Check it out here beginning at 40 seconds).

 

To me, this is why we're in the position we're in where this type of thing can be put into place so easily -- we've abdicated our freedoms little by little by not doing much of anything and by not knowing our rights; the restrictions have gotten stronger and stronger, little by little. Throw off some innocent people's travel plans? I'm sorry but that might need to happen for change to take place. What better way to get MORE people behind the protests than for some to lose money and time with family?

 

Our family pretty much never flies anyway -- I'm sitting here asking myself how much can I do? What am I willing to do? And I'll be honest enough to say I don't know if I have what it takes to go to jail and leave my family over stuff like this. But I would like to think I do. And would.

Edited November 20, 2010 by milovaný

[Tammyla]

I'm not flying, but I wasn't going to anyway. I do find the enhanced searches disturbing.

[milovany]

I'm probably a little reactionary right now having watched Iron Jawed Angels in class this week (the HBO story of women who fought -- many risking their lives -- for the right of women to vote in our country; I had no idea until now what they went through).

 

I'll bookmark that - sounds really interesting, and inspiring. Very timely lesson in civics and appreciation for those who cleared the road for 'rights' we sometimes take for granted.

 

It is a good movie. You can find the whole thing on youtube in several parts. Feel free to skip the unnecessary (imho) masturbation-in-the-bathtub scene, LOL. I work on campus in the classroom and I couldn't believe the professor let this scene play as long as it did. :001_huh:

[....]

The women of the National Women's Association were the first ones ever to picket the White House -- and they were assaulted by the public while policemen watched, thrown in jail and then when they went on a hunger strike, all so you and I could VOTE, were force fed (have you seen this process? Check it out here beginning at 40 seconds).

 

Once again...human rights...does not even surprise me... :glare: (shaking head)

 

On a lighter note, one of my uncles is a former Cabinet member and I LIKE to think...maybe...possibly...that there are some good guys in the gooberment who have some common sense and are looking out for their constituents....

 

Or, maybe I have not left the post-college idealistic phase yet...:svengo:

 

Either way, milovany, you make a very good point.

[Faithseed]

Our freedoms have been slowly taken away over the past many years. Everyone has a line that they will not cross. Many people's lines were found long ago: the point when they decided that the government had overstepped its bounds. Mine certainly was long ago.

This is a line for many people.

 

What I can not for the life of me understand is why this is not a line for everyone.

 

I apologize for being harsh, but I have no respect whatsoever for the TSA employees. I simply cannot respect people who compromise civil or moral code for their jobs. Regardless of the fact that the government is allowing this molestation to occur. In any other business, groping the same or the opposite gender is illegal, and is therefore civilly wrong.

 

I only see all of this ending when three things finally happen:

 

1) People stop seeing everything as a "us" verses "them" issue. In no way is this a Rep/Dem issue. It doesn't matter who was in office, or which side started it. Face the facts- both sides are wrong a lot. The point is that the power needs to go back to the people. While there is little more than petty fighting over which side is right or wrong, that isn't going to happen.

 

2) People need to stop being so selfish. I'm absolutely dumbfounded every single time I hear "well, that doesn't effect me, so it's fine". Seeing as how I hear that way too often, and have for years....I'm pretty dumbfounded!! I don't get how a nation can be so selfish as to not even look at how an issue is blatantly against the highest law of the land, yet turn the other direction as long as the ramifications don't touch them. Stand up for what is legally right- whether it suits one's personal life or not.

 

3) The nation either upholds its own laws, or changes them. We have a national law that every person, and the government as an entity itself is held to. If it is not going to be obeyed, then why have it?? There should be only two choices: either obey the Constitution, or change it (legally- by majority vote). The government not obeying its own laws should never be acceptable.

[....]

In any other business, groping the same or the opposite gender is illegal, and is therefore civilly wrong.

 

 

Yeah, could you imagine if you had to go thru this to get into a Burger King or something...:glare: It's that "but it's for your safety" argument.

 

Edited to say: I'm thinking of all the lawsuits coming...

Edited November 20, 2010 by starrbuck12

[LizzyBee]

If the airlines start hurting financially because people are not flying THEY will put pressure on the govt -- and they have a lot more clout than the rest of us.

 

I agree... but I was pointing out that it is not the airlines that are doing this. I've gotten the impression that some people (not just in this thread) think the scanning and patdowns are airline policy rather than TSA/government policy.

[Elaine]

 

I apologize for being harsh, but I have no respect whatsoever for the TSA employees. I simply cannot respect people who compromise civil or moral code for their jobs. Regardless of the fact that the government is allowing this molestation to occur. In any other business, groping the same or the opposite gender is illegal, and is therefore civilly wrong.

 

 

 

I agree with everything that you wrote, especially this part. I do not feel badly for the TSA agents at all. Has all good sense gone out the window? Has no one said, "You know, I think we should not be doing this."

 

A friend and I were discussing this the other day and she said this about the situation, "I was thinking of that just last night, Elaine. Honestly, did we learn nothing from the fact that people were prosecuted after WWII for crimes when they were simply "doing their job"? Of course, I'm sure most TSA workers hardly knew there was a WWII.

 

I don't care if your boss tells you to handle a child in an illegal fashion, or view the unclothed body of a child, if you still do it, you are equally responsible. If TSA workers get uncomfortable enough, just maybe they will help put a stop to this."

[RanchGirl]

The whole thing is offensive and unconstitutional IMO. Actually the whole DHS/TSA thing is completely over the top. They have way too much power, power that they should not legally have, and they are neither efficient nor effective in their stated goals.

 

I would like to be respectful of individuals just doing their job and assume they don't enjoy it anymore than their victims do. But that respect stops when they are molesting people. If one has any integrity, one refuses to do that. Even if it means losing a paycheck. I could not come home to my children and look them in the eye after spending the day fondling other people's children.

 

And if it's not ok for someone to do to my children (and it's not), and it's not ok for someone to do to my grandma (and it's not), then it's not ok for them to do it to me. I will not fly until they have stopped both the pornographic radiation machines and the molestation of those who can't or won't accept the pornographic radiation machines.

Edited November 20, 2010 by RanchGirl
grammar

[Murmer]

I'm a reasonable person, I've flown to England the week after Lockerbie, flew to Orlando 8 days after 9/11 (on first flights that reopened..we were scheduled to fly out on 9/12)...I'm not a fearful flyer,

 

But!! When flying through Amsterdam this past May, I had 'THE PATDOWN'...it is WRONG!! You know when all those red flags hit you like a brick when you see a suspicious character lurking in a park or fair? I felt as though I was trapped and literally was being molested..I had to pretened to laugh it off so my kids would not see my fear, but if they tried for one second to pull that on my daughters or even my son, I would have vehemently REFUSED!

Their hands pushed into my private parts, they put their hands all over my breasts, under on top on side, several times!!!

Mine was a lady, but the expression on her face and her demeanor gave me NO comfort..I think she actually liked making others feel uncomfortable..that was a hard realization...it added to the whole molestation feel....we fly in March to LA and if they pull that, I will refuse.

 

Tara

 

Please please please if this happens to you and you feel it was over the top and inappropriate let them know with a comment card or on their website! There is a place for this. One of the lines TSA is using right now is that they are not getting a lot of complaints...probably because most people are too scared to tell or don't have enough time before their flight but complaints need to be done when it is this inappropriate.

[ma23peas]

I just want to add that those who say they've "been through it" and it's not a big deal may not have been through the most recent 'changes'...as of October 24th, they have updated and retrained those giving these searches, my only guess is that this invasive form was already in heavy use in Amsterdam in May..I have been searched before with the little wandy thing, have even had them use their hand to feel inside my inner legs, but this search is LONG, INVASIVE, and horrific...I see criminals go through less on a Cops show....and what did I do? Buy a ticket so I can take a Disney cruise? Does that make me ripe for molestation? You can bet if they ever try to do that to one of my children I will be demanding a supervisor...I will risk any fine, I will have my husband videotape our conversation, I will play it on every medium I can find, we can do something to stop this, I admire those doing the opt out...if I were a TSA, I'd demand they come up with options or sit out on my job...this is extreme folks, and I just LOVE that one of our 'government' officials is seriously looking at allowing a pass for muslim women b/c it offends them....give me a break.

 

Tara

[missesd]

For once in my life, I wish I were a man so I could display my True Scottish heritage.:lol: If I were a man, I might fly somewhere only for that purpose.

 

:rofl:

[Mejane]

I agree with everything that you wrote, especially this part. I do not feel badly for the TSA agents at all. Has all good sense gone out the window? Has no one said, "You know, I think we should not be doing this."

 

According to tonight's news, yes they have. They're as unhappy about it as the general public.

 

A friend and I were discussing this the other day and she said this about the situation, "I was thinking of that just last night, Elaine. Honestly, did we learn nothing from the fact that people were prosecuted after WWII for crimes when they were simply "doing their job"? Of course, I'm sure most TSA workers hardly knew there was a WWII.

 

I don't like the new scans either, but comparing TSA agents to Nazis (if that's what your friend meant) is a bit of a stretch.

 

I don't care if your boss tells you to handle a child in an illegal fashion, or view the unclothed body of a child, if you still do it, you are equally responsible. If TSA workers get uncomfortable enough, just maybe they will help put a stop to this."

 

In this economy expecting people to sacrifice their job is asking a lot. I think it's up to the flying public to demand this be stopped.

[Tea Time]

Was that supposed to be a joke? There's an $11,000 fine for not cooperating with the frisk (a guy was recently fined $10k just for telling them not to "touch his junk"). If you punch them, you'll be arrested and jailed for assault, plus probably face a civil suit.

 

This attitude of "Not me! I'd punch 'em!" just bothers me because it sort of veils the real issue here. The government has made you powerless. There is virtually nothing you could do to resist that would not result in grossly large fines and possible jail time. They have the ability to take away your rights and invade your privacy on a whim, and there is nothing you can do about it if you do not boycott the airlines entirely.

 

I'm also curious about your definition of "too frisky." Do I need to go into the sordid details of what a cavity search entails?

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I thought it was a bad idea when they implemented the shoe thing. There is something oddly demeaning in having to take your shoes off in this type of situation. It felt wrong to me. And it bothered me that ONE PERSON could make an entire industry implement a massive procedure like that. That seems like just as potent of a goal as killing people. Control is the goal, however strange the type of control might be. It is similar to a child wanting attention - any kind will do. So in effect, the more invasive procedures are not even really protecting us from terrorism, they are feeding it. In addition, I knew perfectly well that it would lead to needing to discover what might be hidden somewhere else. Like your undies.

 

Mostly people have been very patient with security measures that have increasingly threatened their civil liberties, but I found this quote about patience, and I think it applies to where this is going:

 

Beware of him that is slow to anger; for when it is long coming, it is the stronger when it comes, and the longer kept. Abused patience turns to fury.

Francis Quarles

[Mejane]

One of the lines TSA is using right now is that they are not getting a lot of complaints...probably because most people are too scared to tell or don't have enough time before their flight but complaints need to be done when it is this inappropriate.

 

According to news polls, 80% approve of the new procedures.

[missesd]

The one thing I have not seen here, si the mention of those of us that share custody and have a child flying this season. I do. She is 12, almost 13, and I am terrified for her!! I told her not to wear an underwore bra, and her dad will have to keep his cool and see her through on his end.... at McCarran National Airport in Las Vegas, Nevada. The reason I say that is because it's already ben mentioned they were a "test" airport for the new machines and procedures. So they are already in place. On my end, we do not yet have them at Austin. There is rumor the floor is not strong enough to handle them.... Thank God!!! My husband usually takes her when she leaves, but IF I take her I will have to watch her go through security to make sure nothing happens. She is no longer an "unaccompanied minor", so getting her "deselected" may not be possible. I KNOW I could not handle a pat down in any way shape or form, so I won't even enter. BUT, that does mean I have to watch on the sidelines and pray they don't do that to her :( It KILLS me that the only way I may get to see her, is to possibly make her endure something like this. I have almost thought about pausing for any visitation that can not be drive to and from, which would mean only in the summer. At least unless this stops. But I am just not sure that that is feasible or fair to her either...

 

The other thing that bothers me profusely is that if we feel "Whoa, wait this is wrong... I don't like how you just touched me, and THIS is not worth getting on an airplane", we don't have the RIGHT to just surrender our ticket and LEAVE. WHY should we have to be fined? We aren't doing anything wrong!! We're just saying we don't agree, it was worse or more then I thought it would be... I want out! It is a flight or fight reaction. Common amongst those that feel victimized. WHY should we then have to pay these ___________ $10-11,000??? Most of these people are probably just good citizens, with families. Why should we not be allowed to leave if we don't like what "giving up our rights" entails?? In effect, where do they get off?? It's one thing to require we submit to these things IF we want to board a flight.... it's another to say "Oh you don't like it?? Too bad... suck it up and endure it cause you can't leave!!.... Oh you don't want to board your flight now? You want to leave?? Well you CAN'T!! If you do we are going to SUE YOU for $11,000!!!" Where the hell do they get off?? Who do these people think they are? You can't tell someone since they are 2, not to let anyone touch you there, if it feels wrong get out of the situation, and then FORCE them to stay and endure your hands all over them, even if they no longer wish to get on the flight!! That's plain and simple BS!

Edited November 21, 2010 by missesd

[Dawn in OH]

 

The other thing that bothers me profusely is that if we feel "Whoa, wait this is wrong... I don't like how you just touched me, and THIS is not worth getting on an airplane", we don't have the RIGHT to just surrender our ticket and LEAVE. WHY should we have to be fined? We aren't doing anything wrong!! We're just saying we don't agree, it was worse or more then I thought it would be... I want out! It is a flight or fight reaction. Common amongst those that feel victimized. WHY should we then have to pay these ___________ $10-11,000??? Most of these people are probably just good citizens, with families. Why should we not be allowed to leave if we don't like what "giving up our rights" entails?? In effect, where do they get off?? It's one thing to require we submit to these things IF we want to board a flight.... it's another to say "Oh you don't like it?? Too bad... suck it up and endure it cause you can't leave!!.... Oh you don't want to board your flight now? You want to leave?? Well you CAN'T!! If you do we are going to SUE YOU for $11,000!!!" Where the hell do they get off?? Who do these people think they are? You can't tell someone since they are 2, not to let anyone touch you there, if it feels wrong get out of the situation, and then FORCE them to stay and endure your hands all over them, even if they no longer wish to get on the flight!! That's plain and simple BS!

 

Well said.

[phathui5]

:iagree: Right now they're one of the most despised groups in the US, but they are just doing their job. I don't like the new procedures either, but let's remember to focus our anger where it belongs - on the government.

 

But if the TSA agents refused to participate in this, it couldn't happen. Let's not let them get off with the "just doing their job" line. That's been used to excuse all sorts of horribleness in all different professions.

[phathui5]

One thing that we can all do is contact our senators about the issue:

 

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

 

I have emailed my local state senator and will be emailing the NY congressional representatives as well.

[Gwenhwyfar]

But if the TSA agents refused to participate in this, it couldn't happen.

 

i assume the workers would be fired and new ones hired ~ prolly pretty quick & easy to do given the high level of unemployment and people who are on the verge of losing their home & have next to nothing to feed their kids.

 

[and then THOSE workers would be the ones losing their homes and being unable to feed their kids]

 

i don't think anyone can blame the workers ~ truly, they are doing as they've been instructed....and they prolly have some kind of legal counsel somewhere that has stated that this does not, in fact, meet the definition of a sexual assault - so the workers have likely been told it's legal and to go ahead by their employer, whom they trust to have the correct information.

[Gwenhwyfar]

hey i wonder if you'd have to get a pat down if you showed up in a bikini? i mean...what's left to pat down? :p

[Tea Time]

The one thing I have not seen here, si the mention of those of us that share custody and have a child flying this season. I do. She is 12, almost 13, and I am terrified for her!!

 

I hate to break it to you, but I think keeping families apart will just be a side benefit for the terrorists, and the government isn't too keen on keeping families close either. Besides that, the government and our culture in general has not exactly been big defenders in keeping the sexual purity of our children, so....

 

You really have my sympathy. I can't imagine. But I do have a college student who will be traveling on the 24th. I am disgusted. I do not know if "the majority" really is okay with this, but I am beginning to think that it doesn't really matter what "the majority" wants in this country anymore. :sad:

[phathui5]

Gwenhwyfar,

 

These Mennonites seem to be thinking what you're thinking:

 

http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2010/11/19/an-idea-for-creative-resistance/#more-735

[Old Dominion Heather]

Bikini and kilt protest!

[Gwenhwyfar]

Gwenhwyfar,

 

These Mennonites seem to be thinking what you're thinking:

 

http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2010/11/19/an-idea-for-creative-resistance/#more-735

 

ha! love it! :D

 

...of course they'd prolly nail ya for "public nudity" or something.

 

pasties & a thong?

[Gwenhwyfar]

Bikini and speedo protest!

 

fixed. :p

[mommaduck]

Gwenhwyfar,

 

These Mennonites seem to be thinking what you're thinking:

 

http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2010/11/19/an-idea-for-creative-resistance/#more-735

Love it! Fine, you want to view my saggy self, I'll strip and let you view all the nice stretch marks and cellulite. This way there is no doubt and I'm not leaving anything to your perverted imagination...reality is not near as nice. ;)

[Elaine]

According to news polls, 80% approve of the new procedures.

 

I find that very hard to believe.

[Audrey]

A protest is okay, but it won't get the job done. It would take a lot more effort than that.

 

1. Write elected officials. All of them. Often.

2. Simply don't fly. The only place in the US you can't drive to is Hawaii. Re-evaluate how badly you need to go somewhere if you aren't willing/able to drive there.

3. Write to the airlines -- all of them -- telling them exactly why you won't be flying to your destinations. Make sure you tell them how much money your family would have spent with them if flying weren't such a violating experience. Eventually, if enough people refuse to cave, the airlines will get their lobbyist onto the elected officials to change stuff.

 

And, that's pretty much the only way you'll get change -- when the suits with money aren't getting yours anymore, they'll complain to Congress and things will get done to accomodate them. We're all a bunch of inconsequential consumers until we stop consuming -- then we're a force of change.

[K&Rs Mom]

Bikini and kilt protest!

 

Now that would make flying a little more interesting for everyone.... :lol:

[Dawn in OH]

According to news polls, 80% approve of the new procedures.

 

 

Sure, 80% of the people in the poll. I'm NEVER in the poll. Where you asked? Anyone here asked? You can get any result you desire if you look in the right place.

[mommaduck]

A protest is okay, but it won't get the job done. It would take a lot more effort than that.

 

1. Write elected officials. All of them. Often.

2. Simply don't fly. The only place in the US you can't drive to is Hawaii. Re-evaluate how badly you need to go somewhere if you aren't willing/able to drive there.

3. Write to the airlines -- all of them -- telling them exactly why you won't be flying to your destinations. Make sure you tell them how much money your family would have spent with them if flying weren't such a violating experience. Eventually, if enough people refuse to cave, the airlines will get their lobbyist onto the elected officials to change stuff.

 

And, that's pretty much the only way you'll get change -- when the suits with money aren't getting yours anymore, they'll complain to Congress and things will get done to accomodate them. We're all a bunch of inconsequential consumers until we stop consuming -- then we're a force of change.

#2 and #3 are fine. #1 you can forget about that ever making any kind of impact. I've done it. In my case, I got a nasty letter back stating why the person elected to "represent me" disagreed with me and had no problem attacking a particular ethnic group.

[FaithManor]

Maybe the poll went like this.

 

The pollsters went to the state prison and formulated this question, "Would you like a TSA job in which you get to look at naked scans of people all day or even pat down their genitalia?"

 

80% answered yes so therefore, 80% of those polled approve of the new security measures.

 

Faith

[phathui5]

My guess is that the poll was "Would you rather use the new scanners or risk being killed by terrorists?"

[FaithManor]

Oh, I wrote my senators. No response from one of them and a big fat "I'm smarter than you" - obviously couched in p.c. terms and let me tell you, the letter was so poorly written that I am of half a mind to write her another letter and put a 5th grade Abeka grammar book in with it plus study suggestions.

 

Yeah, she and her flunkies can't find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight but I'm supposed to just take her word for it that no liberties have been lost because she's so smart.

 

Sorry honey, my 5th grader is a h*ll of a lot smarter than you!!!!!

 

I'm now onto the attorney general. I'm kind of hoping that with all of the lawsuits that A.G.'s have launched against the health care bill, that they'll find something in our state constitution that they can use to sue the feds for stomping on state sovereignty.

 

They treat us all like sheep. I fully expect that the patdown begins with this instruction, "Spread your legs apart and say BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA."

 

Faith

[msjones]

I'm hatching a little plan myself.

 

Our family had planned to fly to DC this summer -- big family trip to top off our study of American history.

 

We just might drive -- drive across the whole darn U S of A with a big "OPTING OUT "sign on top of our minivan. We might just contact the local media in some of the little towns we'll be passing through.

 

I need to think it through and get my husband on board. He's not quite as willing to stick his neck out as I am.

 

It would be quite the example for my kids of our American freedoms, wouldn't it? We'd protest all the way across the country. :)

[Audrey]

Oh, I wrote my senators. No response from one of them and a big fat "I'm smarter than you" - obviously couched in p.c. terms and let me tell you, the letter was so poorly written that I am of half a mind to write her another letter and put a 5th grade Abeka grammar book in with it plus study suggestions.

 

Yeah, she and her flunkies can't find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight but I'm supposed to just take her word for it that no liberties have been lost because she's so smart.

 

Sorry honey, my 5th grader is a h*ll of a lot smarter than you!!!!!

 

I'm now onto the attorney general. I'm kind of hoping that with all of the lawsuits that A.G.'s have launched against the health care bill, that they'll find something in our state constitution that they can use to sue the feds for stomping on state sovereignty.

 

They treat us all like sheep. I fully expect that the patdown begins with this instruction, "Spread your legs apart and say BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA."

 

Faith

 

 

I write to my elected officials on various subjects often. Every single time I get one with errors, I pull out my red pen, make corrections and send it back to them, along with a note about how they need to do something about the sad state of education in this country which produces people who may be able to speak it, but who are literate in neither French nor English, as evidenced by the sorry state of their letter writing abilities.

 

I know it's incredibly snotty of me, but you know what? I expect and demand better of my elected officials than that. You should, too, so don't be afraid to let them know exactly that.

[pqr]

I know it's incredibly snotty of me, but you know what? I expect and demand better of my elected officials than that. You should, too, so don't be afraid to let them know exactly that.

 

Nothing snotty about it, everyone should do this.

[Murphy101]

Wait....

 

You have to take off ALL jewelry? Even wedding bands?

 

 

Seriously?

 

I literally cannot do that. I've worn my wedding ring since I was 16 years old. And um, my finger is not 16 anymore.

 

I literally cannot take my wedding ring off and haven't in ... Decades.

 

What would they do to me for that? I can't imagine I'm the only one. Lots of old folks surely have the same issue?

 

 

And don't say they will cut it off! Like heck they will over my cold dead body.

[Murphy101]

Oh and my poor dh gets the full treatment, scanners, metal detectors and pat downs every flipping time his flies. Because he has an insulin pump.:glare:

[FaithManor]

Here is a link to another Michigan horror story...I feel so bad for this man.

 

I have to say, having spent a great deal of time in the DTW airport, I can honestly say that the TSA there are notoriously known for their attitudes and by that, I don't mean cheery dispositions.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news/?GT1=43001

 

I feel so bad for this guy.

 

Faith

[Murphy101]

I don't doubt it. My dh has had to remove his entire pump, including the needle insert.

 

Which is also a huge expense. Because then he has to throw it away and get another insert before he can reattach his insulin.

 

Not to mention it's painful to have to tug and bump the needle stuck in him during pat downs.

[lionfamily1999]

nm

[kitten18]

Here is a link to another Michigan horror story...I feel so bad for this man.

 

I have to say, having spent a great deal of time in the DTW airport, I can honestly say that the TSA there are notoriously known for their attitudes and by that, I don't mean cheery dispositions.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news/?GT1=43001

 

I feel so bad for this guy.

 

Faith

 

Wow, that is REALLY upsetting.