Money and Missionaries and Questions

[Heather in Neverland]

OK, please read my entire post before you skewer me....

 

Working at this school in Malaysia has given me the opportunity to meet and work with several missionary families. Most of them are here with certain mission organizations supported by the giving from people in their home churches...people like many of you.

 

But there is something bugging me and it's been bugging me and I just have to ask or I am going to burst. But first, some background...

 

My school is a christian school and we do offer 50% discounts on tuition to missionary families. However, we are NOT a missionary school like other missionary schools I know. The teachers get salaries (they aren't much but they do not have to raise their own funds). This is not some small school out in the bush somewhere. This is a prestigious international school with excellent academics, sports, arts, etc. We have an excellent reputation and our students go on to all the big name colleges. And it is expensive. It costs about $10,000 (USD) per year to send your kid here ($5,000 if you are a missionary family).

 

So now back to my issue... about half of our student body comes from missionary families. These families are here working to spread the gospel. I get it and I appreciate it. BUT these families are living in big 2500 sq ft homes, driving brand new cars and sending their kids to an expensive private school.

 

Why does that bother me? It is NOT because I think missionaries should live in a hut and eat grass. But I remember my grandma, living in the back woods of Alabama, barely getting by on social security, and her bony little fingers making pies to sell to raise money for missions. And I remember the little country church I attended in NC with about 70 members who were struggling to make ends meet and watching them give their last 5 dollars to the special missions offering we did each month. And I see the small church I go to here, full of locals...christians...who give money to missions every month and who would LOVE to be able to send their child to a christian school but the tuition is 3 times what they make in a year.

 

And I am troubled.

 

So we have people who have come to Malaysia to share the gospel with the Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims here and their standard of living is FAR superior to that of the people back home sending them money. I know people in my church in NC who could never dream of affording an education like this for their kids but they are paying for it for their missionaries.

 

Heck, if my kids didn't come here for free I couldn't afford it either!

 

We also have about 20% of our students who are boarding students whose parents are missionaries in an area where there are no schooling options for their kids so the mission organization pays to send them here. But that is an entirely different topic (I just can't see how sending your kids off to another country to be raised is something that would please God but maybe that is a spin-off thread).

 

Please help me understand or help me get a better attitude about this because it is really bothering me. I know there are many missionaries out there in rough areas and having a hard time but I can tell you that there are hundreds and hundreds of missionaries in Malaysia and they are NOT having a hard time. They live in beautiful homes, drive new cars and give their kids a pricey private education on the backs of less fortunate people supporting them and it just upsets me.

 

Can someone explain it or give me an attitude adjustment? :confused:

[Oakblossoms]

Can I be upset with you?

 

I have a problem with missions. I think we should share and teach the people to teach their own. Then we should get back home and take care of those in need.

 

But, hey that is me.

[specialmama]

Wow. Every mission I've heard of here (sent out from Canada) needs a thorough and public audit to be sure funds are going where they ought to. There are living expenses and even "luxery" expenses like entertainment and gift giving... but this is over the top. It sounds these missionaries and the churches sponsoring them are missing the accountability, the transparancy of finances. So sorry Heather. I'm mad with you.

[Brenda in FL]

That is disconcerting. It would be interesting to know a sample of the missions organizations they represent.

 

Are these missionaries ministering to those in the same financial class? Or to people groups that have considerably less than them? Are there other less expensive schooling options for there children?

 

Will their support buy a lot more in Malaysia than it would in the US (in regards to housing and vehicles - the school seems comparable)? Do they need newer, more reliable cars?

 

I'm hoping this is an exception - it seems that most of the missionaries I've heard speak - have been struggling financially, and not living way above the average folk.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My experience growing up on the mission field.

 

I went to a school like yours. My parents paid for it out of their mission "salary". Ie. they were allotted money for all living expenses and they put some of the money to the school. The money allotted them took into consideration that they didn't have any choice over where to send us, though. (At that time.) The mission valued a good education and wanted the mission children to be able to go to the colleges of their choice.

 

We had a nice house by native standards in the sense that it was a little bit bigger and was better made too. It stood up in all the earthquakes. Many of our neighbors had to rebuild their houses. So the mission "saved" by having good construction the first time. Our house was bigger because we held church in our house as well as other meetings.

 

We had a new car but not a fancy one. My dad oversaw 5 churches in diverse areas. Good transportation was very important for his work.

 

I went to college with some kids who grew up in Africa with a mission that did not believe in giving their missionaries those "perks". It has been shameful to see these missionaries come back to live in poverty, hoping to get government help in order to get medical care etc. On the other hand, their kids were able to go to college.

 

I don't know all the "shoulds" in this. I do know that my parents and other missionaries were called to share the gospel with people. They did teach the native people to teach their own people. My dad started a seminary to do just that. I know that my family lived comfortably but not extravagantly. They did not go there to get rich and did not get rich off of it.

[mktkcb]

Have you asked anyone there about this? My parents were missionaries in a 3rd world country. I would say our standard of living was better than most of the populace, but certainly not better than in the states LOL. We didn't have nice things in general, by our standards. Certainly not 2500 sq ft homes. My parents lived in a variety of types of houses, from cinderblock to mud brick, to even grass huts for a time with a tribe in the bush that my mom was doing language work with. I do know that many mission boards have a set amount of support that they require for their missionaries. The missionaries have to have that amount of monthly support before they are allowed to go. I totally understand the boarding school controversy....I went to an mk/international school for high school (my parents weren't willing before that...we did Calvert), but there were mission boards that *required* parents to send their little baby k-ers. Not sure I get that either. I don't know that it would have been considered "prestigious" necessarily, but we had very good teachers, and miscellaneous expat/diplomat's kids. I think I got a very good education. I confess I don't know what it actually cost, but I do know that the mission required missionaries to allot part of their support to education. Anyway....I think it would be very interesting and constructive for you to find someone amongst the missionaries there who is open enough to dialogue with you about this. You might find out things you never thought about before...things that might confirm the feelings you have now, but also things that might temper them as well. I would caution you to not condemn across the board until you have a bit more understanding and clarity. Then you can throw the book at em ;o). Just a bit of insiders perspective.

Kayleen

[mktkcb]

agree with Jean...this is very much how my parent's mission agency did things as well. Where my parents worked, there is now a seminary with mostly native teachers. There has been quite a bit of unrest and rebel activity, so many of the missionaries have been forced to leave (not all), but the native pastors have carried on the ministry quite well....a tribute to how well the missionaries there trained the people.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Popping back to this thread to say - in some of the larger missions - and ours was a larger one - they are very serious about managing the funds as well as they can. That made a huge difference in what they were able to provide for the missionaries. The people back "home" who are managing the money consider it their ministry to be the best stewards of that money that they could be. It was important to the mission that the missionaries not get sick. Good housing and food were important to that end. The missionaries worked very hard but the mission made sure to insist on vacations so that there would not be burn out.

[Tap]

Do missionaries have retirement funds, health care expenses (beyond what is just available locally), social security payments, taxes, unemployment payments and other 'typical' expenses taken out of their incomes?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Do missionaries have retirement funds, health care expenses (beyond what is just available locally), social security payments, taxes, unemployment payments and other 'typical' expenses taken out of their incomes?

 

My parents had a retirement fund. The missionaries I mentioned who came back home to poverty did not. It depends on the mission. I think it also was slightly up to them too how much they allotted to it. I know my mom said once that they put more of their "salary" to retirement than some of their colleagues did. Of course that meant that they had less available for other things.

 

My parents had to pay social security and taxes. I don't know about unemployment or other things.

 

P.S. - the reason I keep using "salary" in quotes is because it wasn't strictly a salary. It was money given that was then distributed monthly so that the missionaries could plan accordingly. All the monies had to be accounted for because some extra money was given specifically for certain ministries. My mom spent hours keeping accounts of how much was spent for food, clothing, transportation, the children's ministry, xyz church etc.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[Heather in Neverland]

I don't know the answer to every financial question and I don't want to feel this way. But I can tell you that they live MUCH MUCH better...light years better...than the people they minister to and they live better than my teachers do. And that is fine but when I think about people back in the U.S., many of whom have lost their jobs and who could never afford a prestigious private school education for their own kids, sending money to missionaries who live in luxury...it bothers me.

 

There is a family here who wanted to do missions here so they came on their own dime...no missions organization. I was in the room when they were talking to another missionary family who was recommending that they join THEIR mission organization (and I am not naming any names because I don't want to upset anyone). His reasons were "you should join XYZ mission organization! They pay for everything! You get a nice house, a nice car, they pay for your kid's school. It's great!" It just sounded like being a missionary was a "great gig", you know?

 

I don't like this feeling I have about it. It's yucky.

[Laura Corin]

I saw the same in China. It certainly reduced my respect for those people - an SUV was necessary for visiting some of the locations where missions were based, but did it have to be the highest spec, most up-to-date SUV?

 

Laura

[mazakaal]

Not all missionaries live like that. And yes, that would bother me too. But you should know that not all missionaries live that way. We've been driving an old Volvo station wagon with a pop-up seat in the back for our family of 6 for 4 years because it was given to us and we can't afford to replace it. I don't even like to drive anywhere as a whole family because we're so squished. I don't want to give a lot of details about our personal finances, but you need to know that we are missionaries and we struggle to make ends meet. We could never afford your private school. We can barely afford hs materials. LOL So please don't generalize. There are lots of missionaries that are making very real sacrifices so they can serve God.

[Rosie_0801]

My sister saw plenty of this sort of thing in Kenya with certain, highly regarded, aid agencies... Actually, she saw things I consider even worse.

 

 

Rosie

[mazakaal]

The more that I think about this thread, the more it disturbs me... the fact that everyone's experience with missionaries is negative. I mean, almost everything that we own we've gotten from freecycle or bought used. It's so bad that my 14yo is getting bitter that all his friends have stuff that we can't afford, that we have to get everything off freecycle. I'm growing concerned that he's going to walk away from the Lord because of the difficulties that we've had to endure, and yet so many missionaries are giving missionaries a bad name. I'm not upset with you all. I'm just upset that you've all had such bad experiences with missionaries.

[Heather in Neverland]

The more that I think about this thread, the more it disturbs me... the fact that everyone's experience with missionaries is negative. I mean, almost everything that we own we've gotten from freecycle or bought used. It's so bad that my 14yo is getting bitter that all his friends have stuff that we can't afford, that we have to get everything off freecycle. I'm growing concerned that he's going to walk away from the Lord because of the difficulties that we've had to endure, and yet so many missionaries are giving missionaries a bad name. I'm not upset with you all. I'm just upset that you've all had such bad experiences with missionaries.

 

As I mentioned in my first post, I know not all missionaries live like that. I have good friends who are missionaries in Papua New Guinea who cook over a wood stove and others in Honduras who sometimes can't reach a store for weeks during the rainy season. So I get it. I do. But that is not the case here. And again, it's not that I think it is somehow more righteous if you suffer more...it's just the disparity I see in the lifestyles of the people SUPPORTING the missionaries and the missionaries themselves.

 

I'm even struggling with the mission of our school. Sure we offer a christian education in a muslim nation...but only to the wealthy. I am not sure why this all bothers me so much. But it does.

[Melissa in Australia]

My sister saw plenty of this sort of thing in Kenya with certain, highly regarded, aid agencies... Actually, she saw things I consider even worse.

 

 

Rosie

 

I have a friend who spent quite a lot of time in other countries, and he told me many reports about how highly regarded aid agencies waste money. He is some top of the world rep tech , and had to do some work on private cruse ships that were above 5star owned by the top aid agencies, paid for by donations, so they could have a holiday!!

 

That is the reason I NEVER give money to any aid agency or missionary service.

Edited November 11, 2010 by melissaL

[mazakaal]

Well, I always knew that aid agencies wasted masses of money. It just bothers me that Christian missions organizations do the same. They should be held to a higher standard. Not that it's right in aid agencies either.

[Melissa in Australia]

Well, I always knew that aid agencies wasted masses of money. It just bothers me that Christian missions organizations do the same. They should be held to a higher standard. Not that it's right in aid agencies either.

 

Why would Christian missions be any better than aid agencies? I would expect them to be worse.

 

I am speaking in general terms, Of course I realize there are very dedicated individual people in both.

[laughing lioness]

We sacrificially (really) supported friends of ours from sem on the mission field for years. They came back to the states to buy a $360,000 home in Colorado Springs. (living a lifestyle that is worlds away from where we're at).

The other thing that really troubled me was that their kids had all gotten braces and have gone, on and off to various private schools, programs in CA and CO.

My perspective's changed a bit...

 

otoh, we have friends who are missionaries who started a company. AFter a couple of years they asked their supporters to give the money being sent to them to someone else becasue their biz was supporting them just fine. We still keep in touch with them.

[FaithManor]

Hi Heather,

 

It's hard to say on the surface. I know missionaries who have had to raise all of their money and their standard of living is below poverty. Their mission's organizations take so much of their fundraising for "operational" expenses that they are left with very, very little sometimes even struggling to have enough food to feed their families. I know missionaries who work for good organizations that don't take huge amounts of their fundraised dollars. They live comfortably as well they should but are just middle class. A decent roof over their heads, decent food on the table, decent car to drive.

 

However, I do know upper middle class and wealthy missionaries and so I want to throw this out to you. These missionaries were professionals in a variety of professions (some were very well to do businessmen, like my husband's cousin who goes to Haiti every two years to dig wells for villages and lives there for six months at a time. He probably lives as well as any of the rich Haitian politicians but doesn't fund raise one dime to be there), some are doctors who made pretty good money, sold their interest in their practices (or in the case of my OBGYN, kept his share but retired to the mission field and is backed by his portion of the profits of the business plus his savings and investments plus the proceeds of the sale of his home), etc. I also know missionaries who have gone to other countries (Thailand comes to mind right now) and who still have jobs in their professions earning very, very good income but then also do a huge amount of mission work for organizations such as Wycliffe and World Vision.

 

So, I don't think the answer on the lifestyle is easy to ascertain. Dh and I looked at moving to Thailand or Malaysia where he would maintain a computer job in the capitol city but we would be doing serious part-time work for Wycliffe. We would have been one of those families that had a big house on the beach, the kids in your school, hired household help, etc. The income offered dh for those two positions was the same as or better than what he is making here but the cost of living far lower and we would have sold our home here and had more savings to boot. But, moving there would have been because we wanted to work with Wycliffe not dh's profession. It didn't work out for us because we couldn't get the quality of pediatrict cardiac care we needed for ds on the insurance offered and we would have also left our 19 year old behind without medical insurance and aging grandparents would have had to house her until she graduated. As much as we wanted to do it for a few years, we had to decline.

 

Our very close, personal friend who is a doctor, is also a full time missionary. He works in his country both in the poor villages but also as a guest lecturer at universities and such and he is paid by that government for helping them set up better functioning ER departments in the city hospitals. He preaches on the weekends. Because he has a professional's income during the week, despite giving a huge amount of free care in a little "bush" clinic he operates, he lives quite well in that country because fundraising pays for the clinic, but he supports his family professionally within the country.

 

I think that probably, there is a combo of things that contribute to the abilities of these families to live this way. Oh, I also knew two missionaries who came from VERY wealthy families. They lived in the same manner but exclusively off their parents' estates. So again, fundraising may not be the sole source of income.

 

Faith

Edited November 11, 2010 by FaithManor

[Renee in NC]

My sister saw plenty of this sort of thing in Kenya with certain, highly regarded, aid agencies... Actually, she saw things I consider even worse.

 

 

Rosie

 

A few years ago I met the author of a book called "Blue Clay People" which was written about his years in Liberia with an international aid organization. He spent most of the summer near us and the dc spent a LOT of time with him. His depictions about how the aid workers lived and their extravagent lifestyles was much as Heather describes, too. They lived in HUGE houses in a gated community where they had servants to do their work for them (and not just regular house servants, which I know is normal in most parts of the world.)

 

However, I also know that there are TONS of people doing charitable work all over the world who do not live in luxury - most live much like the people they are serving (but probably with better access to healthcare.)

[Renee in NC]

I also want to say that I know a missionary family in Mexico that left one of the bigger missions organiztions because the required support (ie. budget for them to live on) was MUCH more than anything they had ever had in the U.S.! They decided to go through another organization that acted more as a clearinghouse and raised much less support than the first one wanted them to have.

[Harriet Vane]

I think you'll find the same range that you would within any sampling of people. Some will make better choices than others, and some organizations will operate more honorably than others. For example, I worked in Christian publishing for seven years--one company for which I worked was managed by people who who were genuinely driven by "the mission." Other companies for which I worked were far more profit-driven.

 

I can say that the missionaries I have known personally are not/were not living in the lap of luxury at all. In fact, I have long had a deep sympathy for both missionary families and pastor's families who are expected to make do on so very, very little--my sympathy is born of my relationships with friends in those roles.

 

You might find it interesting to read A Chance to Die, by Elisabeth Elliot, a biography of Amy Carmichael. The luxurious living standards of the missionaries in India bothered Amy a great deal, and she spent almost her entire career as a missionary bucking that system and choosing differently.

[Laura Corin]

I think you'll find the same range that you would within any sampling of people.

 

Of the missionaries I met in China (I met a lot) I would say that about one-third were seriously hardworking people, often with a specific skill to offer (water engineering, or whatever) in addition to their preaching duties. I'm not a big fan of missionary activities at the best of times, but I could see that they were committed to bettering people's lives in any way they could.

 

Another one-third were living pretty high (nice flats, new SUVs, regular flights 'home') but often didn't seem to do very much. There was an awful lot of aimless hanging out with other missionaries.

 

The final third seemed sincere but a little... lost. They often weren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, and didn't seem to know what they were doing or how to go about it.

 

So, a mix, but not a high proportion doing great, cost efficient and effective work. If I were advising anyone interested in supporting a missionary, I'd suggest asking some pretty serious questions about aims, personnel and achievements.

 

I should add that the missionaries I knew were figments of my imagination, because missionary activity is illegal in China.

 

Laura

Edited November 11, 2010 by Laura Corin

[mommaduck]

I should add that the missionaries I knew were figments of my imagination, because missionary activity is illegal in China.

 

Laura

:lol: But we know they are there. I knew one that went over with a legitimate job.

[TXMomof4]

Do missionaries have retirement funds, health care expenses (beyond what is just available locally), social security payments, taxes, unemployment payments and other 'typical' expenses taken out of their incomes?

 

The ones I know don't. They were paid from the US, but when they came home they realized taxes hadn't been taken and ended up owing thousands and thousands. I think they are still paying it off.

 

However, our church did pay to send their son to an American school there. He tried the local school and it was horrible. Homeschooling was not legal in that country so the church made the decision (with the approval of the congregation) to pay for the child's schooling. There was nothing else they received that set them above the local population financially.

 

We have other friends who are missionaries in S. America and they do live a lifestyle better than many people here, but it costs significantly less to live that way there. KWIM? Everyone there has domestic help unless they are living in poverty. The middle class is much 'nicer' than middle class here.

 

It really depends on where you get your support. The families who have to go raise their support from individual congregations are very much at the mercy of those congregations. If a church doesn't follow through with the promised support the families really hurt financially. If they manage to get the bigger churches to support them they have a better chance of security while they're in the mission field.

[Michelle in AL]

My church which is Methodist supports this. Dh went on a mission trip to Africa where our church sponsered a family of Missionaries. They too had a large house, driver, armed guards, cook, servant and their kids went to private school. What upset my husband most though, was that he was supposed to be there to set up a medical mission. All they did was parade them around from church to church. No effort was made to connect him with people who could work with him in the future. He called it "The dog and pony show.""

 

It turned him against church forever.

 

I do see the side though that the people there need to have the necessities to get their job done. I also think it's commendable provide a good education for the children. I do have a hard time with families with less giving to a situation that is different than what they expect.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that it used to be that missionaries had to sacrifice their children to their mission, to a large extent. They either had to send them to boarding schools or homeschool them with difficulty in a strange country, often with no libraries, electricity, or even reasonably abundant supplies. The kids did not know their native land and never were completely accepted in the mission country. My impression is that many of the earlier era missionaries were really gung ho for their work and didn't necessarily have much time for family life. Also, the difficulties of just keeping up with daily life made it challenging to have much conversation time--both the mission work and the cooking/cleaning/laundry under less technologically advanced conditions than at home were extremely time consuming. So what happens to the children in this circumstance? Do they grow up pretty isolated? I'm thinking so.

 

My impression is that now the pendulum has swung the other way, and that that is not so bad.

 

When I think about what it would be like to be a missionary, the effect on the children is the only thing that is really unacceptable to me. If they can't fit in anywhere when they are grown up, are the parents doing right by them? There has to be some provision for this, both educationally and socially in addition to spiritually. (I should add that I know perfectly well that not all families ended up like this, and that things are better now in many ways.)

 

I agree that living in tremendous luxury on mission dollars is unreasonable, but I also think that some level of lavishness to keep the children from being sacrificed is very reasonable.

[Starr]

Heather I'm with you. Moderation would serve the Lord much better! It sounds like this crowd is working the system.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know missionaries who work for good organizations that don't take huge amounts of their fundraised dollars. They live comfortably as well they should but are just middle class. A decent roof over their heads, decent food on the table, decent car to drive.

 

 

 

This was how we lived and every other mission family we personally knew on the mission field. Perhaps things have changed. . .

[vonfirmath]

Can I be upset with you?

 

I have a problem with missions. I think we should share and teach the people to teach their own. Then we should get back home and take care of those in need.

 

Except that Jesus told us to go -- to all the nations. Not just our own backyards.

[Laurie4b]

I think the key thing is accountability with the sending congregation. I think there is a leap in your logic: you are assuming that the people sending these missionaries have no idea of how they are living. If you have no means of knowing whether there are elderly women sending the last of their social security to support these missionaries nor any way of knowing whether they are knowledgeable about the state of living of the missionaries, then you really don't have a means of knowing whether they are betraying the donations of elderly women on social security or not. You also don't know whether family or friends in the US, for instance, send $$ specifically for the kids' education.

 

In our congregation, we have a standard that the church will not expect those we support to live below our average standard of living for a person their age. It is up to them to determine how they give, but we don't expect our pastor, etc. to be poorer than the rest of us. Our pastor lives in a very nice home, but by no means in an extravagant home. We have people on our missions team visit our missionaries regularly--none of them are somehow rolling in the dough while someone at home sacrifices their last cent; but neither are the missionaries destitute. I have sympathy for giving a child raised overseas an excellent western education. If that child is not called to live in the culture to which their parents were called, having a westernized education helps them reintegrate into US society. Reintegration is a large enough task without an educational handicap.

 

In short, unless you know that there is something going on that is unethical, i would be very hesitant to assume that there is.

[mommaduck]

Except that Jesus told us to go -- to all the nations. Not just our own backyards.

He also said to love your neighbour ;)

[FaithManor]

Yes, like Laurie said, the education of the children is VERY important and I think that in times past, a lot of people did not worry about the missionaries' children. My sister went to college at a private Christian university that offered 50% tuition/room/board scholarships to all MK's. Unfortunately, most had to drop out of school...they just couldn't cut the academics because they had either been barely homeschooled by their parents who were working themselves to the BONE for the cause and couldn't properly educate their children, were sent to a very poorly funded mission school where 28 kids shared a handful of textbooks and had almost no reading material, or even worse...were sent to the village school so they had a language barrier to overcome and the fact that in most 3rd world countries, government funded village schools are the pits when compared to industrialized nations.

 

So, I would personally feel that it is important for the mk's in Heather's area to be in her school. It is monumentally wrong for their future to be sacrificed on the altar of good works!

 

Though I can't speak directly to the housing and car situation though I suspect that these missionaries may have a source of income besides regular fund raising, I think that there is a very good chance that someone, somewhere is giving sizable dollars to them to subsidize the children's education. You can bet that if my dd decides to go to Malaysia, Papua New Guinea, or Vanuatu (all possibilities as EMS in our area is funding trips for paramedics to go to these countries and teach trauma care through interpreters) and she had children, grandma here would be going back to my professional music career and funding a school like Heather's for my grandbabies!

 

Faith

[Whereneverever]

I think the key thing is accountability with the sending congregation. I think there is a leap in your logic: you are assuming that the people sending these missionaries have no idea of how they are living. If you have no means of knowing whether there are elderly women sending the last of their social security to support these missionaries nor any way of knowing whether they are knowledgeable about the state of living of the missionaries, then you really don't have a means of knowing whether they are betraying the donations of elderly women on social security or not. You also don't know whether family or friends in the US, for instance, send $$ specifically for the kids' education.

 

In our congregation, we have a standard that the church will not expect those we support to live below our average standard of living for a person their age. It is up to them to determine how they give, but we don't expect our pastor, etc. to be poorer than the rest of us. Our pastor lives in a very nice home, but by no means in an extravagant home. We have people on our missions team visit our missionaries regularly--none of them are somehow rolling in the dough while someone at home sacrifices their last cent; but neither are the missionaries destitute. I have sympathy for giving a child raised overseas an excellent western education. If that child is not called to live in the culture to which their parents were called, having a westernized education helps them reintegrate into US society. Reintegration is a large enough task without an educational handicap.

 

In short, unless you know that there is something going on that is unethical, i would be very hesitant to assume that there is.

:iagree: I'm not going to touch the rest, but the kids attending a good school is really important.

[indigomama]

I am responding before I've read through all the posts, but I have been thinking about this very topic only in a very different way!

 

We (DH and I pre-kids) were briefly overseas as missionaries and just this weekend welcomed some friends into our home who are still currently at the same place. And their story is completely different!!! My friend was in tears because she has put off having kids because they cannot afford them! They just spent the last of their savings adding an indoor bathroom to their house and they largely went without meat this last winter! They have partnered very well with the community to help the people in their town, they have taught STD awareness classes, teach a Bible study and accountability class to former substance abusers, provided a monthly get together for the elderly and helped start a publishing company that has translated and distributed some amazing theological books to the entire country! But above and beyond they really truly love the people they serve and hope one day to leave the church in the hands of equipped national believers!

The last few days I have been thinking what could I sell to raise money (because I don't have any extra to give) so that my friend can put in a kitchen and finish house repairs enough that she would feel comfortable enough to have the child she longs for. DH and I would love to go on the mission field again fulltime but I think raising support would be the most difficult part. I just don't understand how the church (universally) isn't giving more.

Sorry this was so long but I just have been stewing on these thoughts and had to share.

[LizzyBee]

I used to live in Okinawa, and some of the missionaries there lived in very nice homes. However, their mission organization had purchased these homes decades earlier when real estate was cheap. Even though these missionaries lived in nice homes, their salaries were quite small. Might it be the same where you are?

[YourFidgetyFriend]

My stepfather is a missionary (first Sudan, and now Mozambique) and unfortunately, he has seen the same things the OP is talking about with missionary families that are there long term. He said almost every missionary family he has met is living an extravagant life. These are people who would be lower middle to middle class here the states. In Africa, they have nice homes, more than one car, best schools for the kids, servants, and drivers.

 

Before he went to Mozambique about a month ago, he seemed so torn. He kept asking was he doing the right thing. He wants to help the people, but the greater system is ridiculous. The first time he told me about it I was angry for weeks and I'm still angry everytime I think about it. I don't want to verbalize all the reasons it completely burns me up inside, but I just have to say you don't need an attitude adjustment. Most people don't want to say anything because they are either benefitting from the system or feel conflicted because missionaries are performing a service Christian people believe in.

[Teachaheart]

Do missionaries have retirement funds, health care expenses (beyond what is just available locally), social security payments, taxes, unemployment payments and other 'typical' expenses taken out of their incomes?

 

I was a missionary in Japan for a couple years, but I think my situation was a bit different than the typical missionary's situation. I was not paid through my sending organisation but through my local organisation-- a mission school catering to missionaries, families from Sri Lanka and India who were earning higher degrees at Japanese universities, Japanese nationals who wanted either an American or a Christian education for their children, and a few international professionals. Our tuition was very low, and since our salaries came from tuition, our salaries were also very low, especially by Japanese standards for teachers.

 

We were paid in local currency each month by bank transfer after our rent and health insurance fees had been deducted. We paid all taxes a typical Japanese person would pay, but our salaries were considered Foreign Earned Income by the US and were not taxable here. Our local organization did not offer a retirement plan, and I can't remember if the sending organisation did or not. If it did, I didn't participate in it.

 

Given our low salaries and the high cost of living in Japan, some of the other missionaries chose to raise support from home, which was disbursed through the sending organisation. I am not sure how US taxes and such worked for them considering I decided to earn extra money teaching private English conversation lessons and piano lessons instead of raising extra support. It was just easier for me that way, and I did report that income on my Japanese tax paperwork.

 

So, I guess, it really depends on the sending organisation and how it disburses funds, as well as the laws of the host country, as to what taxes and other such expenses missionaries pay.

[Sputterduck]

I am a missionary. I also live in a really big house. My standard of living is much better than it would be if I were living in the States. That is because the cost of living here is so incredibly low. I couldn't get a dirty, seedy apartment in the States for what I pay for in rent for my current house. I think my big house is a blessing because I have extra rooms to house short term missionaries for free. Otherwise, it would be harder for them to come down and help out here. My house is always open to anyone who feels called to come down here and lend a hand.

 

That said, I decided not to take donations from others at this time. I pay my own way so far. That may change in the future, I was just uncomfortable asking others for money.

 

My big house is not an indication that I am prosperous. It's cheap. Dirt cheap. By American standards, if you look at the money I have, I'm poor.

[Sputterduck]

Also, I want to add that the other missionaries here are living in not great conditions. One family lives on a bare concrete floor with a roof that leaks. Their washer, full of rust, finally died. Their car is no longer working.

 

Another missionary can't afford to fix his car. I don't know what his house looks like. I've never been there.

 

Another lives in a home with lots of mold and pieces missing out of the ceiling.

 

A married missionary couple that I just met live in a small one bedroom, but it rains in the bedroom when it's raining outside, so their bedroom is the living room. They are ecstatic to have this home because their place before it was worse apparently.

 

My current house is awesome and lets us house other people. Yay! My former house had unfiltered water truck water and I was tired of showering in unclean smelly water. This neighborhood has a reverse osmosis system for the residents and it is waaay awesome.

 

I hope this thread doesn't stop people from donating to missionaries. Some of us are living in bad conditions. All of us are helping those in need.

[Sputterduck]

Can I be upset with you?

 

I have a problem with missions. I think we should share and teach the people to teach their own. Then we should get back home and take care of those in need.

 

But, hey that is me.

 

 

Why should we be so myopic as to help only those in the area where we happened to be born?

 

In America there are social programs. I know of no area in America where the people live in the hell that the people I work with live in. My time and my efforts are best spent for those in the most need. The people here? They aren't allowed in the public schools. They can't get jobs enough to feed their families. And there are no programs to help them. They have no education. They have no way of getting better jobs. They are treated terribly by those around them. They live on the dirt under tarps or under roofs made of scrap wood they've managed to scavenge.

 

Missionaries do teach people to teach their own. What in the world else do you think missionaries do??

[Amber in SJ]

I have a couple of questions, and I want everyone to know that I am not asking to be rude, I really want to know.

 

My background is LDS (Mormon) In our church there is no paid clergy, nor paid missionaries. Our unmarried young men & young women serve 2 year missions that they (and their families) pay for themselves. Empty nesters are also encouraged to serve missions, and again they pay for it themselves.

 

DHs background is Evangelical Christian. His family is full of missionaries who live and are raising their families in the countries where they are serving. At this time he has cousins in Thailand, Singapore and India. Some of them have been there their entire married lives and raised their families there. They live in huge homes with household "helpers." They drive new cars and take side trips & vacations to other countries. We get letters every month pleading for money. They come back to the states once a year to do a fundraising tour. One family returned home for the husband to receive a doctorate in Theology at a college in Oregon. Their home church in the Bay Area bought them a piece of property and built them a huge house (granted, they have 7 children and need a huge house) something didn't work out in Oregon & he went to school in Kentucky, so the church paid for them to live there. I would love to have a huge house built for me somewhere, I would love for someone to pay for DH to go to school for the degree of his dreams, I would love to have a car paid for by someone else, and don't even get me started on how much I would love to have someone else pay for a housekeeper. :D This does seem like a great "gig," but I know that they fervently believe in what they are doing. My question is; what is the reasoning behind the givers at the home churches to give so much to keep the missionaries in what I consider to be a luxurious lifestyle for life when there is so much poverty at a local level? My DH works his 9-5 job to care for us and he puts in long hours of unpaid service every week in his church calling. It would never occur to him that he should be paid for his service to God. Do missionaries feel like they are doing a job and therefore deserve to be paid?

 

I hope this doesn't come off in a tone I don't intend. I really am interested in the comments of others.

 

Amber in SJ

[Sputterduck]

How is it that everyone here seems to know missionaries that live lavish lifestyles, yet I am a missionary, currently in the missions field, who knows Lots of missionaries, yet I've never met one?

[vonfirmath]

He also said to love your neighbour ;)

 

And how does sending missionaries overseas prevent this? This is a non-sequitor. The original post I was responding to said that we should not send missionaries overseas. I was responding to that idea. I said nowhere that we should not ALSO witness to our friends and neighbors.

[Kate CA]

They live in huge homes with household "helpers."

 

Just a note on this comment. A friend of mine is a missionary in Africa and in the place they live, her home is much larger than that of a normal African, but they didn't have a choice where they were going to live - it was part of the mission that is a school specifically for the local population and that is where they stay. Also, the "helpers" you speak of - they *had* to hire two people from the village or they would be looked upon as unwilling to mix with the locals. It also provides work for two families where there would otherwise be none. It wasn't something they had any choice with either, but works out as a benefit for both.

 

I point these things out because what you seem to see as "living high" may not be that at all. I cannot speak to your relatives as I don't know if they really *are* living high, but it isn't always what it seems to be on the outside.

[Kate CA]

How is it that everyone here seems to know missionaries that live lavish lifestyles, yet I am a missionary, currently in the missions field, who knows Lots of missionaries, yet I've never met one?

 

FYI - I am right there with you. I know our church's missionaries are not living high on the hog and the dangers my friends in Africa face are real and scary.

 

Sadly, there are going to be bad apples, but the missionaries we have had the privilege of knowing face hardships and give every day of their lives to share Christ with those around them.

 

This thread seems a bit out of place here as there are SO many different kinds of faiths and thoughts on the subject. Broad-brushing Christian missionaries is not productive at all.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Kate CA

[Sputterduck]

Just a note on this comment. A friend of mine is a missionary in Africa and in the place they live, her home is much larger than that of a normal African, but they didn't have a choice where they were going to live - it was part of the mission that is a school specifically for the local population and that is where they stay. Also, the "helpers" you speak of - they *had* to hire two people from the village or they would be looked upon as unwilling to mix with the locals. It also provides work for two families where there would otherwise be none. It wasn't something they had any choice with either, but works out as a benefit for both.

 

I point these things out because what you seem to see as "living high" may not be that at all. I cannot speak to your relatives as I don't know if they really *are* living high, but it isn't always what it seems to be on the outside.

 

Exactly. I do have a helper. It helps her family out and she wants to learn English. She is almost free by American standards and it does not mean that I am living a life of abundance. It means I'm a single mom and I can't do everything myself and I need help.

 

In many countries it is normal for people to hire house helpers. It's seen and awful to not hire them and it looks like you are refusing to offer jobs that mean the world to people who need them badly, but cost you almost nothing.

[mommaduck]

And how does sending missionaries overseas prevent this? This is a non-sequitor. The original post I was responding to said that we should not send missionaries overseas. I was responding to that idea. I said nowhere that we should not ALSO witness to our friends and neighbors.

I didn't take her as saying not to send anyone over, but rather pointing out the fact that many people are willing to help elsewhere, but unwilling to do anything for the homeless and impoverished in their own back yard...and I mean actually getting out there on the streets directly (btw, I'm not talking out my rear here...my husband and older children have done this in one of the worst areas of the country). People are willing to give money to their mission baskets, but unwilling to spend a few bucks to buy a homeless person a meal. This isn't directed at anyone particular and you may just be one of the people that actually do this...but as a whole more people are willing to support missionaries "over there" from the comfort of their homes, but not actually lift a hand here.

 

I think we should be willing to do both.'

 

 

Sputterduck, there are a lot of programs here, but they don't reach everyone and there are limitations. There are people here that do not even have a board shack to pull together (and the cities won't allow them to) and have no chance at ever finding a job. Yes, population wise in comparison, wherever you are is most likely much worse, I agree. But it's not all roses here either for some people.

 

I have an acquaintance that is a missionary. He lives no better than those around him other than some sanitation. He teaches health, sanitation, and I believe he is an RN as well. He's had malaria multiple times. It's not easy. He's back in the bush so far that there is no luxury.

Edited November 11, 2010 by mommaduck