Doing what's right and social success

[Jugglin'5]

I think it becomes harder to stand up for right and wrong the longer you wait to do it. It actually becomes more awkward.

[justasque]

In this situation, if Calvin calls the other kids out on their use of 'gay' to mean 'lame,' he might make a point, but he isn't going to make a difference. ... These boys aren't cornering someone with taunts of being gay, queer, faggot, they are simply assigning meaning to a word that Calvin doesn't agree with.

 

He will make a difference if one of the other kids actually is gay and/or struggling with same-sex attraction, something that he may not be aware of about that particular kid (nor may the other kids). He will make a difference if one of the other kids has a sibling or parent or close friend who is dealing with the issue. Whatever your politics or religious beliefs on the issue, treating kids for whom this is a personal issue (in one way or another), not a theoretical one, with kindness and sensitivity is appropriate. By saying something, Calvin is doing just that, and encouraging his peers to do the same.

 

Like I and previous posters have said, it doesn't have to be a morality lecture, just a brief "that is uncool" message (verbal or non-verbal) can make a difference.

 

Don't we all get uncomfortable when someone says something negative about homeschoolers in front of us, not realizing that we're one of "them"? Same thing, pretty much.

[Starr]

Didn't someone just say that boys this age are going through the defense attorney stage? Nuance may be a while in his future.

[Kate in Arabia]

I am simply saying that sometimes the reason particular people can't abide the use of certain words is because they are personally sensitive to the harms (whether perceived or actual) of their use.

Yes. I am uncomfortable with the British slang word "bint" as a pejorative for a girl or young woman. It's Arabic for girl (no pejorative), and I can't shake the impression that it came into the language as a racial slur. But any British person I've ever asked about it has never known where "bint" comes from, and don't use it with any kind of slur in mind, kwim?

 

Another one of those things where you wonder do you just let it go...

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Yes. I am uncomfortable with the British slang word "bint" as a pejorative for a girl or young woman. It's Arabic for girl (no pejorative), and I can't shake the impression that it came into the language as a racial slur. But any British person I've ever asked about it has never known where "bint" comes from, and don't use it with any kind of slur in mind, kwim?

 

Another one of those things where you wonder do you just let it go...

 

OT, but thank you for this! I was watching the scene from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" with Dennis the Political Peasant (educational moment with my teenager). Dennis uses that word, and I had no idea what it means.

 

And I'm too scared of Urban Dictionary to search. I assumed I'd never know, and here you are dropping it into conversation.

 

:001_smile:

[Kate in Arabia]

And I'm too scared of Urban Dictionary to search. I assumed I'd never know, and here you are dropping it into conversation.

Don't be afraid, lol!

 

1. Bint

 

English slang for a wh0re or b!tch. Similar to a tart.

 

"Look...you can't proclaim yourself king just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at you." -Monty Python, Holy Grail

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bint

 

..and glad I could help (inadvertently).

[katilac]

I just don't think anyone has sexual orientation in mind when they direct the word gay at an inanimate object, so I can't see this a hill to die on.

 

And while I think it's great for kids to stand up for others, I also think that some posters on this thread may be a bit naive when it comes to teens and the social situations at school. People have said they'd want their kids to speak up even if it means losing friends, but what if it means getting the holy crap beaten out of you? Or being taunted relentlessly, not just that day, but on and on?

 

Again, I do not think these kids have sexual orientation in mind when they use the word that way, and I don't think it's a great idea for the new kid to bring that meaning into play. Teen boys discussing sexuality is a minefield at the best of times, and bringing same sex orientation into the mix? Joking about it? High potential for disaster, imo.

 

He has to make his own decisions, but I think he needs to do it with his eyes open.

 

 

 

He will make a difference if one of the other kids actually is gay and/or struggling with same-sex attraction, something that he may not be aware of about that particular kid (nor may the other kids). He will make a difference if one of the other kids has a sibling or parent or close friend who is dealing with the issue. Whatever your politics or religious beliefs on the issue, treating kids for whom this is a personal issue (in one way or another), not a theoretical one, with kindness and sensitivity is appropriate. By saying something, Calvin is doing just that, and encouraging his peers to do the same.

 

Like I and previous posters have said, it doesn't have to be a morality lecture, just a brief "that is uncool" message (verbal or non-verbal) can make a difference.

 

Don't we all get uncomfortable when someone says something negative about homeschoolers in front of us, not realizing that we're one of "them"? Same thing, pretty much.

[Haiku]

I'm surprised to see people think using a slur is ok. As in my earlier example of retarded, where I think most people would agree that it's not ok to throw that word around, I'd expect people to feel the same way about the word gay. Am I out of touch?

 

FTR, my 16 year old has told her friends not to call things gay around her because she has friends/loved ones who are gay. None of the kids got all bent out of shape about it. She says they still use the word amongst themselves but usually don't around her and apologize when they do. I seriously doubt saying, "Someone I care about is gay, would you please not say that around me?" is going to get a kid beat up.

 

Tara

[Guest janainaz]

How is that not an attack, then? If gay people are being equated (in word) with something that is lame or stupid then how is that NOT an insult?

 

Most people are aware enough now to not use the word 'retarded' to mean 'something I do not like/something that is lame/stupid'. I think we can move beyond the pejorative use of the word gay as well.

 

I pay more attention to intent. The word 'gay' has been thrown around so much, and all I'm saying is that often when it's used, kids are not necessarily thinking about a 'gay' person - it's not an attack on or against a person. I'm not saying it's nice, I'm just saying that people like to read meaning into things. There are a lot of words that are used that could offend just about anyone.

[Guest janainaz]

I believe it is rude for others to constantly correct others failings...if they were their parent, their mentor, teacher...then they have a responsibility to correct this behavior..apparently, they're not correcting it. So, do we then allow our children to become societal correctness guards? No. If he develops a STRONG friendship with one of them, then one on one (not in a crowd that could bring humiliation) he has the responsibility to share his concerns.

 

He has the choice to not associate with those people...if it offends him that greatly, perhaps find a different crowd? I was very friendly to everyone in my school, but my circle of friends I gravitated toward would never say things like that...did I hear things like that? Yes, then I would just politely excuse myself or find something else to do.

 

It's the same thing with adults, if I don't appreciate what a company does/says then I don't shop there anymore....I don't watch their programming...I have choices..but if I sat there and forced my socially correct views on everyone, who is that helping/hurting?

 

Is he as equally offended when they throw a curse word around? Maybe you can work with him on his sensitivity to this particular issue..we need to know when our overreactions blur with social inequities....my son was very offended in Scouts by derogatory words they would call each other...he would say something because as a Scout they ALL agreed to uphold the code...'be kind, reverent, etc." and they were NOT doing that...but in a public school setting, there is no social code...they have freedom to express themselves..

 

Tara

 

:iagree: I think there is also an attitude behind the needing to correct that is condescending and 'holier than thou'.

 

When I go to the park in the afternoon (I should say when I USED to) - we would hear the ps kids talking about all kinds of stuff. Their language was horrific, they saw that I was there with two young(er) kids, and I felt that they were provoking me through their topic of conversation and choice of vocabulary. Many kids are very hard and desensitized due to very poor relationships with their families. They have learned to blend in with the culture around them and they really have not learned to care about others around them. Many are neglected by their own parents and it shows through the way they act, the things they say, and their lack of empathy towards others. The issue goes deeper than just using a slur or a bad word. Many of these kids just don't care - they are hard. So if my kids went to public school, I would not think that the best way to influence the other kids would be by walking around correcting them constantly. In fact, I honestly think that is the way to make the issue worse.

[hornblower]

Really? And when is it the right time to finally stand up for what you believe? When it's convenient & easy and comes with no risks, social or physical?

 

 

I just don't think anyone has sexual orientation in mind when they direct the word gay at an inanimate object, so I can't see this a hill to die on.

 

And while I think it's great for kids to stand up for others, I also think that some posters on this thread may be a bit naive when it comes to teens and the social situations at school. People have said they'd want their kids to speak up even if it means losing friends, but what if it means getting the holy crap beaten out of you? Or being taunted relentlessly, not just that day, but on and on?

 

Again, I do not think these kids have sexual orientation in mind when they use the word that way, and I don't think it's a great idea for the new kid to bring that meaning into play. Teen boys discussing sexuality is a minefield at the best of times, and bringing same sex orientation into the mix? Joking about it? High potential for disaster, imo.

 

He has to make his own decisions, but I think he needs to do it with his eyes open.

[Guest ME-Mommy]

:iagree: I think there is also an attitude behind the needing to correct that is condescending and 'holier than thou'.

 

When I go to the park in the afternoon (I should say when I USED to) - we would hear the ps kids talking about all kinds of stuff. Their language was horrific, they saw that I was there with two young(er) kids, and I felt that they were provoking me through their topic of conversation and choice of vocabulary. Many kids are very hard and desensitized due to very poor relationships with their families. They have learned to blend in with the culture around them and they really have not learned to care about others around them. Many are neglected by their own parents and it shows through the way they act, the things they say, and their lack of empathy towards others. The issue goes deeper than just using a slur or a bad word. Many of these kids just don't care - they are hard. So if my kids went to public school, I would not think that the best way to influence the other kids would be by walking around correcting them constantly. In fact, I honestly think that is the way to make the issue worse.

 

I politely disagree...

 

Really? And when is it the right time to finally stand up for what you believe? When it's convenient & easy and comes with no risks, social or physical?

 

and I firmly agree with Hornblower...

[hana]

He will make a difference if one of the other kids actually is gay and/or struggling with same-sex attraction, something that he may not be aware of about that particular kid (nor may the other kids). He will make a difference if one of the other kids has a sibling or parent or close friend who is dealing with the issue. Whatever your politics or religious beliefs on the issue, treating kids for whom this is a personal issue (in one way or another), not a theoretical one, with kindness and sensitivity is appropriate. By saying something, Calvin is doing just that, and encouraging his peers to do the same.

 

Like I and previous posters have said, it doesn't have to be a morality lecture, just a brief "that is uncool" message (verbal or non-verbal) can make a difference.

 

Don't we all get uncomfortable when someone says something negative about homeschoolers in front of us, not realizing that we're one of "them"? Same thing, pretty much.

 

:iagree: Nicely said!

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Really? And when is it the right time to finally stand up for what you believe? When it's convenient & easy and comes with no risks, social or physical?

 

Exactly!

 

And for the record, those of us who are advocating that kids stand up for what they believe aren't imagining a sit-down lecture or a soliloquy about the harms of using such words, including poignant examples with everyone tearfully hugging at the end and agreeing to never, ever use the word again (although that would, of course, be nice :D). Personally, I think an appropriately placed, "Dude, that's not cool" can serve the intended purpose of expressing dislike of the word's use and would be quite unlikely to get anyone beat up.

[In2why]

Regarding this specific use of the word, I have never actually seen anyone use it to imply that said object is gay like a homosexual is bad/wrong/whatever. Like you said, the word used like that means "lame" or something like that, and I remember hearing it as far back as when I was in middle school. Most of the kids I have known recently to call things/people gay are also very gay friendly, and would never even realize that someone else would consider usage like that demeaning.

 

I remember when dd first heard someone use the word like this, it was her coach and she *freaked* because her gay uncle who lived with us was one of her favorite people. Gay uncle told her not to let words have such power and once she realized that in her coach's mind it had no connection to hatred, she just didnt let it bother her. As much. After a long while.

 

There are ALL KINDS of words like this that kids use and never even give it a second thought. They call each other b*tch or n-word or fatty all of the time and never give a thought to offending anyone.

 

PLEASE don't get me wrong, I am not condoning it at all, I'm just saying it is commonplace among the upper/middle class kids I deal with and I don't even know if they would understand why Calvin was bothered.

 

Of course, if he did tell them, maybe shared some stories he heard, then they would be enlightened?

 

 

OT, I am excited the kids started school already! I do hope that you update us occasionally! Also, every once in a while when the day here is rough, I imagine your little post office in the most beautiful green hills...:D

 

 

 

I don't think those words are normal for middle class kids to use. I had kids in public schools and they were well liked and knew without a doubt that there were certain things that are not to be said. The 'N' word is one of them, and even black children in my house were told not to use it. Even to each other. They also knew that the word faggot is just as bad as the "N" word. As for saying "that's so gay". I would ask my younger kids what that even meant the first time they said it. Once they broke it down, they realized that the phrase was meant to degrade gay people and put them on the level of something stupid.

I raised a sailor and he talks like one at times. In fact when he gets off the ship, my youngest son makes a ton of cash, because we jokingly require a dollar for every "F" word to remind him that he is back in public company. My boys, now men, were popular, respected, and had lots of friends, and they were no angels by any means, but they also wouldn't have any problem telling their friends not to talk like that. My oldest son even corrects his adult friends when they curse around me, since he finds it disrespectful to his mother, which I find somewhat amusing because everyone knows one of my bad habits is to curse when I am really mad.

[In2why]

I almost can't believe that this is a conversation on a homeschooling board. I know part of the reason we home school is so that we can teach our kids what we believe is important, and our values.

 

Then there is the socialization issue. I can't count how many times I have read about not just socialization, but the right kind of socialization is what matters. The maturity to deal with different ages and different groups. The benefiet of being yourself, and having a strong identity.

 

We laugh at the idea of being sheep and kids needing a certain shoe to fit in. We worry about critical thinking skills and logic yet we want them to remain silent. Or taking the everyone else does it, track.

 

If saying certain things aren't important to you or yours, own it. I have been guilty of saying something is retarded. I wish someone had called me on it. I didn't even think about it because I do not equate learning disabilities or special needs with retardations anymore. But no excuses, it was wrong, stupid, and insensitive of me. Worse no one pointed out that it was wrong, so that I could stop and think about whether it was something I might want to change. I still curse and I own it. I don't dislike it, and I don't want to change it. But I do not blame it on the social norms or do it to fit in. But part of growing and maturing is trying on certain ideas and ideals and seeing what fits and more importantly what does not.

[justasque]

And while I think it's great for kids to stand up for others, I also think that some posters on this thread may be a bit naive when it comes to teens and the social situations at school. People have said they'd want their kids to speak up even if it means losing friends, but what if it means getting the holy crap beaten out of you? Or being taunted relentlessly, not just that day, but on and on?

 

I speak from experience.

 

I know (non-gay) teen boys in school. They have spoken out (in the "Hey dude, not around me!" kind of way). They have made *more* friends, not fewer. It's a leadership thing.

 

I also know some gay teens. I have seen the scenario play out, again and again, in various groups of kids (and sometimes adults) where *I* knew one of the kids was gay and the other people did not. It's ugly, and hurtful, and the gay kid will probably not risk saying anything about having been hurt by it. Most of the time, the speaker didn't mean anything by their comment, and didn't intend to hurt anyone. Saying something matters. It makes a difference, in ways the speaker may never know.

[Guest janainaz]

Really? And when is it the right time to finally stand up for what you believe? When it's convenient & easy and comes with no risks, social or physical?

 

I'm not saying that our children should not stand up for what is right at any cost. But I would rather my kids stand up in defense of a 'cause' or against personal attack, or the rights of someone else. Certain words have become as common as the articles, and like someone else said, you can choose who you hang out with and the company you keep. But there is a time and place and attitude in correction and most kids (and adults, including myself) are not as tactful as they could be and don't always have the right heart attitude necessary to make a true impact.

[Haiku]

So if my kids went to public school, I would not think that the best way to influence the other kids would be by walking around correcting them constantly.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that Calvin "constantly correct" these kids. People have advocated a "Dude, not cool" approach.

 

I disagree that there is a "holier than thou" need to correct people. I think it's a basic situation of calling a spade (slur) a spade.

 

Tara

[Guest janainaz]

I don't think anyone has suggested that Calvin "constantly correct" these kids. People have advocated a "Dude, not cool" approach.

 

I disagree that there is a "holier than thou" need to correct people. I think it's a basic situation of calling a spade (slur) a spade.

 

Tara

 

I was in no way referring to Calvin specifically. I was not suggesting that he was going around constantly correcting kids. I was speaking of the bigger picture and bringing up the attitudes of some of the kids in this culture. And yes, a "due, not cool" approach is fine. But that is not how some kids would approach the issue.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I'm not saying that our children should not stand up for what is right at any cost. But I would rather my kids stand up in defense of a 'cause' or against personal attack, or the rights of someone else. Certain words have become as common as the articles, and like someone else said, you can choose who you hang out with and the company you keep. But there is a time and place and attitude in correction and most kids (and adults, including myself) are not as tactful as they could be and don't always have the right heart attitude necessary to make a true impact.

 

 

This IS about a cause!! This IS about the rights of someone else!!

 

Gay people don't have to be equated with LAME/STUPID!

[silliness7]

I would do some role play to help him see how to correct peers with grace and without being condescending...an important life skill.

[Guest janainaz]

This IS about a cause!! This IS about the rights of someone else!!

 

Gay people don't have to be equated with LAME/STUPID!

 

Ok, whatever. I don't think that's how most kids mean it.

[Haiku]

Ok, whatever. I don't think that's how most kids mean it.

 

If people started saying lame/stupid things were "ni**er," would it matter whether they meant that they were literally African Americans?

 

Tara

[Tea Time]

Calvin just started at school, but this question could refer to any new social situation. He has a strong sense that people should not casually demean minority groups, for which I applaud him. Unfortunately, it has become common for teenagers to use the word 'gay' to mean 'pathetic, useless' referring to things ('These compasses are so gay') as well as people. Calvin hates this and picks people up on it.

 

Leaving aside how you feel about gay people, how do you think we should approach this? On the one hand, it's brilliant that he is standing up for what he believes in. On the other hand, he's in a new social situation that he can't escape for the next four years, so going in with (metaphorical) fists flying might not be wise.

 

In theory he doesn't care if people like him: he knows what is right. In practice he does want to have friends. I have no idea if there will be children who admire his stand, or whether he will be ostracised.

 

Thanks

 

Laura

 

That is such a sweet gesture, and that should be applauded. Good for him. Tell him to keep up the good work.

 

I haven't read any of the posts. I just don't have time right now. I just wanted to say that my dd is in college. Two of her very, very best friends are gay men. They use the term, too, occasionally, and they are not offended by it at all. They just really aren't as fragile as you might be led to believe. Oh, and something else. These guys are c.o.s.e.r.v.a.t.i.v.e. I know, right!? The real world just busts out all over the place surprising us all and crushing the silly stuff the media serves up on every front! Lol! These are smart kids at a classical, liberal arts college who do not lack vocabulary either.

 

That doesn't mean that I think it is a good term to use, BTW, or that I approve of it at all. My opinion is that it represents and over all degradation of the language and shows a coarseness in our culture, but that is just one tiny example. It is all over the place. My son is very bothered by all the cursing he has to put up with. I guess his strategy has been mostly to lead by example. That might be the safest and best approach. It is too bad, isn't it?

[Tea Time]

This IS about a cause!! This IS about the rights of someone else!!

 

Gay people don't have to be equated with LAME/STUPID!

 

What right is that? The right to be thought of in only certain, specific ways by other people? Wow. That is going to be a tough right to secure without some frightening powers being welded by someone.

[Guest janainaz]

If people started saying lame/stupid things were "ni**er," would it matter whether they meant that they were literally African Americans?

 

Tara

 

No, but people don't use that term in the same way.

 

My point was simply that if I was sending my kids into a ps environment, I'd warn them ahead of time that they are going to see and hear all kinds of things. People and kids are just plain mean sometimes, and then there are those who say things without really meaning to be cruel. I would tell them to pick their battles when calling something out, or even when using and "ahem..." when they hear something inappropriate. If they were standing with a kid that was gay or handicapped and heard kids throwing around a rude term *without* realizing that they were hurting someone elses feelings, it would all the more call attention to that person. So, my point was that there is a time, attitude and place to make a statment (in my opinion - and it's ok for others to disagree). The world can be an ugly place at times, but I would rather my kids lead by just being a kind-hearted person. I would not want them to get the idea that it's their job to start correcting kids on a regular basis or. I'm not just speaking about the word 'gay', but language in general.

[bettyandbob]

I am really surprised that some people don't get that using a word that has meaning to a group of people in a negative way has a very negative impact on the group whether or not the context directly refers to the group.

 

If you use the term gay to mean lame, that is negative. Are there positive slang uses of "gay". No. In slang it is only used as a negative. That has a negative impact on persons who identify with the gay community.

 

If you don't understand this, you clearly don't know what it's like to be part of a marginalized community. As I said before, one of my dc has a major disability. The current use of the word "retard" hurts. No, no one means to hurt persons who actually have a medical diagnosis of mental retardation, but to walk around using the word in a negative has a negative impact on a group of people telling them it's bad to be who they are.

 

Using these words in this way further marginalizes these groups. For people who don't interact with persons in these groups, it further distances them from being identified as a worthwhile person and justifies the marginalization. The person is no long a person.

[Nestof3]

I too hate it when words are used incorrectly like that. The one I hate, which I hear so many young people say, is, "that's retarded." I call them on it too. I just imagine that really being able to hurt someone's feelings. Unfortunately, I don't think many young people really think much about hurting feelings.

[stripe]

Yes. I am uncomfortable with the British slang word "bint" as a pejorative for a girl or young woman. It's Arabic for girl (no pejorative), and I can't shake the impression that it came into the language as a racial slur. But any British person I've ever asked about it has never known where "bint" comes from, and don't use it with any kind of slur in mind, kwim?

You're right, Kate. I looked it up in the OED:

A girl or woman (usu. derog.); girl-friend.

The term was in common use by British servicemen in Egypt and neighbouring countries in the wars of 1914-18 and 1939-45.

 

1855 RF Burton Pers. Narr. Pilgrimage to Meccah I. v. 121 ‘Allah! upon Allah! O daughter!’ cry the by-standers, when the obstinate ‘bint’ of sixty years seizes their hands. 1888 CM Doughty Trav. Arabia Deserta I. viii. 231 Hirfa sighed for motherhood: she had been these two years with an husband and was yet bint, as the nomads say, ‘in her girlhood’. Ibid. xiii. 374 The homesick Beduin bint. 1919 Athenæum 25 July 664/2 Bint, girl. 1930 E Raymond Jesting Army I. ii. 24 ****ed jolly little bint, that one, too! 1938 'R Hyde' Godwits Fly xi. 169 Fancy turning in a smoke for a bint. 1941 New Statesman 30 Aug. (list of war slang) BintGirl friend. 1942 N Streatfeild Table for Six 151 I'd like her to grow up a lush bint. 1946 Penguin New Writing XXVIII. 175 What are the bints like round here, Tom? 1958 K Amis I like it Here xiii. 162 As the R.A.F. friend would have put it, you could never tell with these foreign bints.

 

I think there are plenty of people who use "gyp" without even realizing it.

 

And when I was younger, everything was "lame."

 

I think there are two issues -- the rather predictable tendency of teenagers to complain everything on earth is boring and stupid, and the offensive nature of how that supposed stupidity is expressed. Ideally, your son would be around other kids who were not constantly complaining as well as not being offensive.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

What right is that? The right to be thought of in only certain, specific ways by other people? Wow. That is going to be a tough right to secure without some frightening powers being welded by someone.

 

 

The right to not be treated like crap? The right not to be insulted? That whole "life, liberty and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS" kinda' implies not being treatd like crap/like you are equal to something lame or stupid.

 

 

I'm seriously losing faith in humanity here. :glare:

[mama2cntrykids]

I don't have much to say and I haven't read all the replies. I just wanted to chim in and say I have always hated that term especially used in the context that most teens use it. It's seriously like nails.on.a.chalkboard to me!!!

 

Oh and good for your ds!! I wish more teens were like him!

[Catwoman]

I am amazed that this thread is still going strong.

 

I had no idea that it would turn into such a trainwreck, with emotions running so high.

 

I am usually the last person to say this, but it might be getting about time for the moderators to close this thread, before feelings are hurt on both sides.

 

I haven't expressed an opinion on this issue, but it seems to me that both sides have made their points, and perhaps it's time to just "agree to disagree."

 

Of course, no one has to listen to me; it's just a suggestion! :)

 

Cat

[Peela]

I think the word gay, even used towards inanimate objects, is definitely being used as derogatory towards gay men in particular, in this context- and i say that from experience of my two teenagers who have picked up that slang from their friends and have used it many times in front of me. When I call them on it- they just say no, it's fine mum, it's just slang, we dont mean anything...but when pushed to explain and defend their position, turns out they do mean it as a slant against gay people....who, basically, many teens are threatened by for some reason. I call them homophobic! My own son who has spent time with a family that is apparently quite anti- gay and it has rubbed off on him. His uncle is gay and we are working hard to "de-prejudice" him, but it has gone deep.

 

Good on Calvin for standing up for what he knows is right. As a mother I can really understand your desire to protect him and help him integrate well into the school system....but I think I wouldn't ask him to compromise. We need people like him. My kids need to see people like him stand up for themselves. However, from another angle...using any form of aggression to fight what is actually a form of violence, is not necessarily the right way to go either. I dont know what is. I would love to know how he handles it in the long run.

[Laura Corin]

Good on Calvin for standing up for what he knows is right. As a mother I can really understand your desire to protect him and help him integrate well into the school system....but I think I wouldn't ask him to compromise. We need people like him. My kids need to see people like him stand up for themselves.

 

I'm very torn, but I know that he needs to do what he believes to be right.

 

Laura

[Tea Time]

The right to not be treated like crap? The right not to be insulted? That whole "life, liberty and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS" kinda' implies not being treatd like crap/like you are equal to something lame or stupid.

 

 

I'm seriously losing faith in humanity here. :glare:

 

Ouch.

 

I think we are mis-communicating because we are thinking of the term "rights" in different ways. To me if you define a right, then I have the impression it should be defended through certain legal recourses. You are probably using it more loosely as a way to exert social pressure to get these kids to feel guilty (rightfully in this case) about being so inconsiderate of other people' feelings. You probably are not suggesting that we punish teens using slang because that would be completely impossible, which is what I pointed out.

 

I agreed that it is a distasteful term. I homeschooled my own children partly because I found the culture in general to be crass and often cruel, and I wanted my own children to not be overly influenced by it. That should not make you loose your faith in humanity. I agree it should disappear from use. How we make that happen immediately though, short of doing something that would be worse, is the question.

 

I think the word gay, even used towards inanimate objects, is definitely being used as derogatory towards gay men in particular, in this context- and i say that from experience of my two teenagers who have picked up that slang from their friends and have used it many times in front of me. When I call them on it- they just say no, it's fine mum, it's just slang, we dont mean anything...but when pushed to explain and defend their position, turns out they do mean it as a slant against gay people....who, basically, many teens are threatened by for some reason. I call them homophobic! My own son who has spent time with a family that is apparently quite anti- gay and it has rubbed off on him. His uncle is gay and we are working hard to "de-prejudice" him, but it has gone deep.

 

We have had similar conversation in our household about the term which is why I posted on this thread at all. I reported some things that I found interesting about young people and their POV. I did not, however, agree with it. I think it is important to remember that not everyone who shares a trait thinks the same way though, and it is demeaning to lump people together just because they share a characteristic.

 

And in my conversations with my teens I did not find what you found. You should not project your conclusions onto everyone because it is not accurate. Perhaps some teens feel threatened by gays because they are worried they will be described as "homophobes" if they do not respond to them "satisfactorily" in the opinion of someone in authority. Kids are pretty perceptive. But this is a complex social phenomenon, and I dislike seeing complex problems reduced to platitudes.

 

Good on Calvin for standing up for what he knows is right. As a mother I can really understand your desire to protect him and help him integrate well into the school system....but I think I wouldn't ask him to compromise. We need people like him. My kids need to see people like him stand up for themselves. However, from another angle...using any form of aggression to fight what is actually a form of violence, is not necessarily the right way to go either. I dont know what is. I would love to know how he handles it in the long run.

 

I think this is an excellent way to put what others in this thread were trying to say. Perhaps it speaks more clearly to people who think similarly so they relate to it better, but it has been said already.

 

My comment (involving rights) was pointing out that the idea of trying to suppress people's thoughts or ideas by force is violent. We have to be convincing. And nothing is more convincing than a good example.

 

I am very sorry if that was inflammatory. I am still working on being convincing and clear, but it is hard, hard work. Sometimes I feel like people purposefully try not to understand the point though, and that is frustrating, too.

 

So, how we teach to our children what we cannot yet do ourselves (apparently) is a very good question.

[unsinkable]

No, but people don't use that term in the same way.

 

My point was simply that if I was sending my kids into a ps environment, I'd warn them ahead of time that they are going to see and hear all kinds of things. People and kids are just plain mean sometimes, and then there are those who say things without really meaning to be cruel. I would tell them to pick their battles when calling something out, or even when using and "ahem..." when they hear something inappropriate. If they were standing with a kid that was gay or handicapped and heard kids throwing around a rude term *without* realizing that they were hurting someone elses feelings, it would all the more call attention to that person. So, my point was that there is a time, attitude and place to make a statment (in my opinion - and it's ok for others to disagree). The world can be an ugly place at times, but I would rather my kids lead by just being a kind-hearted person. I would not want them to get the idea that it's their job to start correcting kids on a regular basis or. I'm not just speaking about the word 'gay', but language in general.

 

I have heard the n word used as an adjective since I was a child. Not in my own house, but in the street.

 

I am sure I am not the only one to have heard it used that way. :confused:

[Haiku]

I have heard the n word used as an adjective since I was a child. Not in my own house, but in the street.

 

 

So have I, which is why I brought it up. I don't think it's the "big thing" to say, but who knows? Maybe one day it will be. And will we just stand by and say, "But the kids don't MEAN it THAT WAY"?

 

Tara

[unsinkable]

So have I, which is why I brought it up. I don't think it's the "big thing" to say, but who knows? Maybe one day it will be. And will we just stand by and say, "But the kids don't MEAN it THAT WAY"?

 

Tara

 

I agree with you.

 

Language is important.

 

The guy around here who is accused of murdering 4 and wounding 4 has had a nickname from before he was accused/arrested --- it's Murder Matt.

 

His family and friends say it was just a joke. It's not very funny anymore...and I would say it never was.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Ouch.

 

I think we are mis-communicating because we are thinking of the term "rights" in different ways. To me if you define a right, then I have the impression it should be defended through certain legal recourses. You are probably using it more loosely as a way to exert social pressure to get these kids to feel guilty (rightfully in this case) about being so inconsiderate of other people' feelings. You probably are not suggesting that we punish teens using slang because that would be completely impossible, which is what I pointed out.

 

I agreed that it is a distasteful term.

 

thank you for explaining further. It seems we actually agree more than we disagree. Yes, we were speaking in different contexts about the word "rights". To me, it doesn't have to be a legal definition. I was speaking more to the "how we treat people" aspect.

 

And, for full disclosure....I have a gay kid. I have a "dog in this fight" and what made me so angry was the whole "Oh, I'm sure they don't mean it that way" argument (not TeaTime, of course). It was so dismissive

of another human beings' feelings. :001_huh:

 

This isn't about being PC, it is about being KIND PERSON, a person of integrity, which the OP's son clearly is or strives to be. I respect that and am glad that she is not squelching that in him.

 

Thank you!:D

[Tea Time]

thank you for explaining further. It seems we actually agree more than we disagree. Yes, we were speaking in different contexts about the word "rights". To me, it doesn't have to be a legal definition. I was speaking more to the "how we treat people" aspect.

 

And, for full disclosure....I have a gay kid. I have a "dog in this fight" and what made me so angry was the whole "Oh, I'm sure they don't mean it that way" argument (not TeaTime, of course). It was so dismissive

of another human beings' feelings. :001_huh:

 

This isn't about being PC, it is about being KIND PERSON, a person of integrity, which the OP's son clearly is or strives to be. I respect that and am glad that she is not squelching that in him.

 

Thank you!:D

 

My dd's two best friends at college are young, gay men. They are delightful people, and she dearly loves them, and they look out for her, too. Being a bit young and homeschooled has marginalized her somewhat. But what they all have in common is a thick skin and a strong backbone, plus good judgment. Stuff really rolls off their backs. I am proud of them all.

 

They do joke around though in ways that make me squirm, and that was what I was pointing out. I guess I try not to be overly judgmental about how people use words because sometimes they are not thinking about it. I could say the same about the thread where people use the term "real school." It can be unkind, but most of the time it is not intended to be. This use of the word gay is worse than that, IMO, but is a similar idea.

 

You and I are older and wiser, and see things that they might not see at that age, or at least see in the same way. I'm sure that most teens will grow out of it, too. I hope anyway.

 

Now I am going to visit my dd at college today! Yay! Have a nice weekend everyone!

:auto:

[Haiku]

In light of the fact that five American teenagers have committed suicide in the past three weeks due to homophobic bullying, I thought this issue might be a good one to revisit. I know that there are people who simply see no connection between using the word gay to mean "lame" and homophobia, but I am willing to bet that if you asked any of those five boys who recently lost their lives, they would not agree. I have discussed this issue with my gay friends, and they don't agree that the use of that word is harmless.

 

Tara