Anyone read "Plan B: Skip College" in the NYT today?

[jld]

Any thoughts?

[MorganClassicalPrep]

Considering I am in school to get my PhD and become a college professor.... it might be considered ironic that I actually agree with this article. I've met so many people who are just struggling in college, because they were told this is what they should do. I've known quite a few people to drop out, leaving them with loans to pay and no degree. Many of these people would be better served by vocational schools or on the job training, etc.

 

Even the economic benefits aren't always there. Many degrees don't offer a good career track. The average starting salary of many people with a BA is somewhere in the 30-40K range... I was making almost 30K with no degree, and on track to make much more if I had stayed with my job.

 

Plus, someone has to do the non-degree jobs. Someone has to cut hair, serve in restaurants, clean buildings, take away the trash, etc. Universities weren't developed for *everyone*, they were meant to be for the best and the brightest (originally this meant the nobles of course, since they thought they were the best and the brightest...). I think universities should be much more stringent in selected their incoming class, and classes should be much tougher! I shouldn't be able to put in 75 percent effort and still get a 4.0.

 

Perhaps I should be quiet now... since my future job security depends on lots of college students :D

[dansamy]

DH went to a junior college and completed their training for Airframe and Powerplant. He still lacks the 2-3 credits to complete an Associate's of Applied Science. He completed what he needed to in order to take the FAA exams and is a licensed A&P mechanic. He makes a good living and has the potential to earn more if we were to relocate so he could work with a different company. However, we like where we are and his income is "good enough" for the socioeconomic environment in which we live. Many of the young men and women who take the classes choose to simply get their licensure and not worry about the Associate's degree that is available if they want it.

 

I guess I need to add that my own RN was earned through an Associate's degree. I do not presently have a BSN and haven't decided if I want it.

Edited May 17, 2010 by dansamy

[asta]

Considering I am in school to get my PhD and become a college professor.... it might be considered ironic that I actually agree with this article. I've met so many people who are just struggling in college, because they were told this is what they should do. I've known quite a few people to drop out, leaving them with loans to pay and no degree. Many of these people would be better served by vocational schools or on the job training, etc.

 

Even the economic benefits aren't always there. Many degrees don't offer a good career track. The average starting salary of many people with a BA is somewhere in the 30-40K range... I was making almost 30K with no degree, and on track to make much more if I had stayed with my job.

 

Plus, someone has to do the non-degree jobs. Someone has to cut hair, serve in restaurants, clean buildings, take away the trash, etc. Universities weren't developed for *everyone*, they were meant to be for the best and the brightest (originally this meant the nobles of course, since they thought they were the best and the brightest...). I think universities should be much more stringent in selected their incoming class, and classes should be much tougher! I shouldn't be able to put in 75 percent effort and still get a 4.0.

 

Perhaps I should be quiet now... since my future job security depends on lots of college students :D

 

No, don't be quiet, I agree with you - to a point. But they were developed for the ruling class. Since we aren't dealing with nobility any longer, why isn't it the same baseline any longer? I have been raving about this for quite some time. It becomes more of an argument for the failure of the K-12 system.

 

It is a hugely complex issue where the three legs of the stool are the unis becoming enterprises vs educational institutions, the compulsory K-12 failing to prepare the students to operate w/o further education, and societal expectation that anyone who does not receive a college education will not be successful in life.

 

The worst, IMO, are the high schools, who have completely abrogated their responsibility to prepare students in any way, shape or form. There is NO reason that a student completing high school should not be fully prepared to enter into society with a skillset that will allow them to be successful. Except that we have dropped our standards so far, and allowed high schools to push this responsibility off to colleges.

 

I find this pathetic.

 

I looked at the course schedules of 3 colleges I thought might be a good fit for my son, as they "followed the classical model". Guess what? He'd already done the work because we were following Susan's book. That is absurd (not Susan, that it was a "big thing" for a college to do this).

 

What a load of crap.

 

/rant.

 

 

a

 

 

p.s. - good luck on that professor thing - all of the ones I know who aren't tenured are either out of work, in the process of being pink slipped, or simply waiting for the tenured ones to die so a position will open up. The tenured ones who *were* planning on retiring pretty much all decided to stick around when the stock market crashed and their pensions went into the toilet. And now, with this economy...

[Peela]

My mum earned more than my dad, when I was a kid. She had left college when she got married and pregnant with me. She got work with a cottage industry that allowed her to work from home and employ the neighbourhood housewives- so she ended up basically running her own business and doing very well, through my whole childhood, even though the work was fairly "menial". My dad was an astrophysicist with a PhD who was employed by Sydney University to teach, and given research time and grants. His job had status- mum's job didnt. But she earned more. She has mentioned he really, really didnt like that and it contributed to their breakup.

 

He mentioned to me recently how low his pay was, and it has left him without a huge retirement fund, but he was definitely passionate about his work and a born academic. It was right for him.

 

They are trying to divide kids into different streams here, so that when they are 14 or 15 they need to decide if they are going to university or a different path. That's sad too. Who knows what they want to do at 14 or 15? Some, but not many.

[Brigitte]

They are trying to divide kids into different streams here, so that when they are 14 or 15 they need to decide if they are going to university or a different path. That's sad too. Who knows what they want to do at 14 or 15? Some, but not many.

 

True, many kids that age don't know exactly what they want to do at that age, but most (not all) have a pretty good sense of whether college is their track or going to work after high school is. Our current system lumps them all together and neither group is truly prepared.

 

I can tell you right now, that with the exception of my brother who is a doctor, my sister with the 2 year RN degree makes the most money of all us. THe plumber who just put in the new sewer line at my rental house lives in a VERY nice home, completely paid for.

[TravelingChris]

I don't think everyone should be going to college. I think a lot less people should be going to college and many more should be going to actual vocational schools. That said, for my family, advanced education makes sense. My dh did much better by his education than by not having one and I did the same (since I married dh and met him at college). My one kid who has the skills to be something well paid but not needing college is most definitely going to college. Yes, she could become a plumber or electrician or repair person of some kind, but she will become, most probably, an engineer. There are two main reasons for that- a) she is not interested in being an entrepreneur at all and doesn't like selling and the best jobs for skilled workpeople is when they are self=employed b) she actually wants to get married and live a certain lifestyle and not many college educated or professional men marry not college educated skilled technician women. My other two desire professions that require degrees and have no particular talents that would give them good livings without degrees.

[Gratia271]

It becomes more of an argument for the failure of the K-12 system. It is a hugely complex issue where the three legs of the stool are the unis becoming enterprises vs educational institutions, the compulsory K-12 failing to prepare the students to operate w/o further education, and societal expectation that anyone who does not receive a college education will not be successful in life.

 

The worst, IMO, are the high schools, who have completely abrogated their responsibility to prepare students in any way, shape or form. There is NO reason that a student completing high school should not be fully prepared to enter into society with a skillset that will allow them to be successful. Except that we have dropped our standards so far, and allowed high schools to push this responsibility off to colleges.

 

I find this pathetic.

 

I looked at the course schedules of 3 colleges I thought might be a good fit for my son, as they "followed the classical model". Guess what? He'd already done the work because we were following Susan's book. That is absurd (not Susan, that it was a "big thing" for a college to do this).

 

What a load of crap.

 

/rant.

 

 

a

 

:iagree:

 

DH and I often conjecture about whether our children will even learn anything new in the college context.

[creekland]

I guess we're of the old school way of thinking... as for me and my house, my boys will go to traditional 4 year schools that fit them as I feel there is much more than the degree to be gained. They also have the academic ability to do so (and desire). I loved my college years - hubby too. We both use our degrees.

 

That said, my nephew never was college material and is a working mechanic. There's nothing wrong with that. It suits his ability and gifts.

 

Raise up a child in the way that THEY should go. Pushing college on everyone just isn't right - nor is denying college to those that want it.

[creekland]

Interestingly enough, when looking over that list of "Occupations with the Largest Job Growth," it makes more of a reason for academically inclined students to GO to college.

 

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_104.htm

 

Many of the jobs on there just wouldn't appeal to my boys nor pay a good living wage (fast food, retail, receptionist, customer service, etc).

 

Some pay a reasonable wage, but still wouldn't appeal to them.

[creekland]

And, interestingly enough, here's today's NYT article showing correlation of pay, etc, on an overall basis. There will always be individuals that are outside of correlation statistics, but, how many fast food employees will earn more than their peers with college degrees working in a degreed job?

 

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/17/the-value-of-college-2/

 

Money is not everything, a good fit is worth a lot, but sometimes, money is a factor in the equation too. My oldest is planning on a low pay career AFTER he gets his 4 year college degrees (double majoring)... but it's a job that should fit him well AND he got scholarships to graduate with very low debt. I wouldn't have let him get high debt with his plans. If he changes his mind, his degree will work well with higher paying jobs too.

[MorganClassicalPrep]

The worst, IMO, are the high schools, who have completely abrogated their responsibility to prepare students in any way, shape or form. There is NO reason that a student completing high school should not be fully prepared to enter into society with a skillset that will allow them to be successful. Except that we have dropped our standards so far, and allowed high schools to push this responsibility off to colleges.

 

I find this pathetic.

 

I agree with this. High schools are so focused on getting students into college that vocational courses are falling by the wayside. Even programs like art and music have been cut, because they aren't seen as crucial. What? Art and music have proven benefits to a child, and what about the child who would have been a musician but never gets the exposure needed?

I know plenty of people who graduated from high school unable to do simple things like balance a checkbook, read above a 6th grade level, create a resume or write a business letter. It is definitely ridiculous.

 

 

p.s. - good luck on that professor thing - all of the ones I know who aren't tenured are either out of work, in the process of being pink slipped, or simply waiting for the tenured ones to die so a position will open up. The tenured ones who *were* planning on retiring pretty much all decided to stick around when the stock market crashed and their pensions went into the toilet. And now, with this economy...

 

Thanks, I'll need the luck. It is definitely a hard field to get into! I'm in 2 honor societies, the honors program in my college, and will be graduating Summa Cum Laude. I've done everything I can to make sure I have a competitive application for the best graduate schools, which will *hopefully* translate into job opportunities. With all these kids being pushed into going to college, hopefully jobs will open up! :tongue_smilie:

But there's nothing else I'd rather do. I love history, and the world of academia is definitely the best place for me.

[elegantlion]

No, don't be quiet, I agree with you - to a point. But they were developed for the ruling class. Since we aren't dealing with nobility any longer, why isn't it the same baseline any longer? I have been raving about this for quite some time. It becomes more of an argument for the failure of the K-12 system.

 

It is a hugely complex issue where the three legs of the stool are the unis becoming enterprises vs educational institutions, the compulsory K-12 failing to prepare the students to operate w/o further education, and societal expectation that anyone who does not receive a college education will not be successful in life.

 

The worst, IMO, are the high schools, who have completely abrogated their responsibility to prepare students in any way, shape or form. There is NO reason that a student completing high school should not be fully prepared to enter into society with a skillset that will allow them to be successful. Except that we have dropped our standards so far, and allowed high schools to push this responsibility off to colleges.

 

I find this pathetic.

 

I looked at the course schedules of 3 colleges I thought might be a good fit for my son, as they "followed the classical model". Guess what? He'd already done the work because we were following Susan's book. That is absurd (not Susan, that it was a "big thing" for a college to do this).

 

What a load of crap.

 

/rant.

 

 

a

 

.

 

:iagree: and I think until we (rhetorical) start to view people without college degrees as viable employees nothing is going to change. My dh is a professional carpenter, no college degree. Because in this area it is often a job for high school drops out and anyone willing to swing a hammer, he gets no respect for his position and experience. :glare: Thankfully not all of his clients are that way.

 

I keep going back to the post (sorry forget who it was ...maybe you, A) that talked about people in Europe training to be waiters and that being seen as a respected and viable career option.

 

Not having attended college myself (for a plethora of reasons), I sometimes feel like people think I quit or that I can't be successful.

 

I think there should be more opportunity for on the job training, in areas where that makes sense. Apprenticeships even. Construction can not truly be learned in a classroom, some jobs just require hands on experience. I wish there were programs where experienced blue collar workers could receive a benefit (money) for training those out of high school in their field. As it is dh can't take the time to do that because he's working hard to bring home a paycheck each week. He doesn't have the luxury to stop and explain the details of what he is doing.

[FaithManor]

I agree with Creekland. A lot of what is on that list isn't a profession one could make a living at. In our area, childcare workers, retail workers, constructions workers except electrical journeyman and plumbers, customer service, home health aides, nursing home aides, housekeeping for medical institutions as well as commercial buildings, etc. are all minimum wage jobs. As much as I would love to only consider that which would be a good fit or something my children would just love to do, there is the practicality that must be addressed. At some point, we need them to be independent of us financially so that dh does not have to be supporting kids and grandkids while he is elderly.

 

Accounting is not just a bachelor's degree, it is a bachelor's plus two years of apprenticeship to a licensed accountant and one is hardly paid enough money during the apprenticeship years to even pay for the student loans; auditing is a level up from that with more schooling and internship in order to get licensed.

 

Physicians and surgeons would depend on the specialty. General practitioners and pediatricians rarely make more in private practice than an eletrical journeyman due to the cost of keeping a practice open and liability insurance. Given that the average med student graduates with $150,000.00 or more of debt, I don't see how this would be lucrative except for in some of the prime specialties. I suppose this is why general practitioners, pediatricians, and obstetricians are getting harder and harder to find. Our chiropractor makes much more than my obsetrician did!

 

Food industry workers are paid less than minimum wage because of tips. I wouldn't want to be dependent on that in this economy. A friend of ours is the sous chef at a fine restaurant, he only makes $15.00 an hour and went to a $25,000.00 per year cooking school. That was all he could get and says this is normal although not at all disclosed when he signed up for the program. It takes years of just about slave labor in a kitchen to work up to master chef and get paid serious money. He loves what he does but when he entered the program he thought that he would be able to support a family on his skill. Nope, though they'd love to homeschool, she has to work a full-time job. He doesn't get health benefits. The restaurant makes sure that everyone except he, the restaurant manager, and the master chef work less than 30 hours so they are all part-timers. If they are forced by the current legislation to provide health benefits, the restaurant will close. Their margins in the recession are too tight.

 

I just don't see how people would make a reasonable living in many of the jobs on this list. That's pretty sad. This country is only 234 years old and the generation coming up is not going to be able to participate in the American dream.

 

DD is going to make it okay as a paramedic. She is worried about meeting "Mr. Right". All of her relatives (dh and I included) met in college going the traditional four-year live in the dorms route. She'd like to be married someday. But, I told her that this is something she needs to leave in God's hands. I have a feeling she will meet a good man in the medical profession in the course of her work.

 

Ds 13 loves English and cooking. That's a conundrum.

 

Ds 11.5 wants to ranch and farm. That would be lovely if we only owned enough land or had a half million dollars to purchase a farm for him. One thing we are considering is ferrier and sheep shearing classes. These are available at reasonable prices through M.S.U. and our ferrier gets $35.00 per horse and the shearer gets $10.00 per head for shearing or negotiates a bulk rate for a flock. He gets more for alpacas and llamas. Of course, the sheep shearing is very much a seasonal job. But, he can take the classes at age 16 and might be able to start his own little business and save some money towards getting himself into ranching.

 

Ds 10 on Saturday, could easily go into aviation mechanics if not aeronautical engineering. There are positions open for aviation mechanics at two airports in Michigan and a bunch of openings out of state. The aviation mechanics program is a two year course and requires FAA licensing but there is a very good school not too far from here where he could get his training for less than $10,000.00. The salary range is excellent. He has the math and logical thinking skills to make a go of such a career. We will also have him take the air traffic controllers exam. Dh nearly aced this when we were first married but opted not to go into the field. He is now regretting that decision and will consider taking the exam again if his current job continues to be awful.

 

I know one young lady who just missed a perfect S.A.T. score and was able to enlist in the Navy in her field of choice. She is in the nuclear physics program all expenses paid. Yes, she has to deal with military life, but not in the same way that most military people do. She suffered through basic, but from there on out has had it pretty reasonable since she is purely an academic.

 

I agree so much with this article. I have watched the incomes and job security of many degreed individuals continue to decline year after year, while their stress levels have gone up and yet our non-degreed friends that have other types of specific skill sets have done very well and like their jobs. I am leaning much more towards non-traditional avenues for my kids and hope that those with degrees won't look down on them. DD is already experiencing just a little of this nonsense from individuals in church who just can't comprehend her not going the "normal" avenue. Of course, after 16 months of study, if hired into MMR and the director has just about guaranteed her a job, she will make more than many of those who have looked down on her.

 

Faith

[Mergath]

Don't have time to read the article right now, but I do think that everyone can benefit from some kind of higher education. My problem with the system is that I don't understand why we push kids to go to college straight out of high school. I don't know how many people I've heard say that, if they had only waited several years to go to college, they'd be much better off, because they'd have known what they really wanted to do.

 

I think it's ridiculous to expect someone under the age of twenty to be able to choose what they want to do for the rest of their life. I don't know why there's stuch a stigma attached to waiting five or even ten years to go to college.

[Mejane]

Don't have time to read the article right now, but I do think that everyone can benefit from some kind of higher education. My problem with the system is that I don't understand why we push kids to go to college straight out of high school. I don't know how many people I've heard say that, if they had only waited several years to go to college, they'd be much better off, because they'd have known what they really wanted to do.

 

I think it's ridiculous to expect someone under the age of twenty to be able to choose what they want to do for the rest of their life. I don't know why there's stuch a stigma attached to waiting five or even ten years to go to college.

 

:iagree: Totally.

[6packofun]

There are too many fields out there where mainly those with degrees get hired even when a degree means little. It's still an expectation of the *workplace*. Now, in hard sciences and math-related fields it makes sense. But some places just want a degreed person and years of hard work and success in some other work instead doesn't seem to count. It's very disheartening. This is one of those "the whole system is flawed" kind of things that doesn't have a quick fix and so people continue to go to college so that they have the best *chance* at getting hired by anyone doing anything, related to their degree or not! Maybe not some blue collar jobs, but a LOT of jobs are tied to education when they don't need to be.

[Faithseed]

:iagree: and I think until we (rhetorical) start to view people without college degrees as viable employees nothing is going to change. My dh is a professional carpenter, no college degree.

 

I think this is key.

[at the beach]

Any thoughts?

 

Customer service jobs? :001_huh: Aren't many of those being outsourced? Home health aides? Can one pay their bills doing that? Pharmacy Techs? Hmm, at our local pharmacy, they start at minimum wage and never really get above $10 hour. If they're going to write an article about skipping college and doing vo-ed, they ought to at least not insult the intelligence of people by suggesting that these aforementioned jobs (excluding the nurse) are trades that one can earn a living wage doing. I'm surprised that only 15% of mail carriers have degrees as a pp stated. I'd have thought it would be more. I wonder if many have been working at the job for a long, long time? I bet new hires are more likely to have degrees than not and degrees that they should not need to a job as a mail carrier IMO. And in any case, the USPS is in trouble and they'll be downsizing, too, right?

 

I don't think college will necessarily make one's future rosy, either. It just depends on what the student undertakes. For many college grads, I fear the jobs talked about in the article will be as good as it gets. We need to readjust our thinking about what is needed for people to succeed in our country. We also need to focus on what's being made here as opposed to being a place where many jobs are service jobs. We need to support local artisans, carpenters, food growers, bakers, manufacturers, etc. If we support businesses that require vocational/apprenticeship training instead of a four-year or more degree, maybe that would help shift people's minds about the benefits of that college degree. But I do get it, right now, how can anyone afford to do that in the current economic climate when many can't even pay their utility bills let alone support local businesses that cost more than the trip to Wal-Mart? :confused: Good grief, we are bringing in apple juice from China, aren't we?

 

Many high schools seem to be getting away from vocational education all together, but there are now more and more vocational schools (many for jobs that aren't even going to pay well) that are charging tuition and kids are paying the tuition via government loans and grants only to come out and find they can't find a job, either. I don't get why high school has become this place where no one accomplishes much of anything anymore. And I'm pretty sure many college programs aren't requiring any deeper or critical thinking of any kind from the people enrolled. I made it through undergrad with an alarming number of classes that required nothing more than filling in bubble sheets with questions pulled straight from the text. Undergrad has (in some cases) become what high school used to be (or worse). One never used to need a degree of any kind of be a physical therapy assistant but now it takes two years to earn that degree and it's supposedly required. Why wasn't apprenticing on the job good enough? They have eliminated physical therapy master's programs I believe and they are all doctoral level now. You can't become a pharmacist without a Pharm.D. now, either. I see Pharmacy Tech programs cropping up. I'm sure the tuition isn't cheap, and it's a minimum wage starting salary without any real opportunity for growth. Going onto become a pharmacist takes years and it is a tough program to get into.

 

My daughter is in pharmacy school. Yes, I think her degree will be worth it for her. A friend has a Master's in English. Teaching part-time. I suppose she could supplement her income by working weekends as a home health-aide. :001_huh:

 

There are no good jobs for many Americans anymore with or without college degrees. Education is a big business, and as consumers, we need to be very aware of what we are buying.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Violet

[Mommy22alyns]

:iagree: and I think until we (rhetorical) start to view people without college degrees as viable employees nothing is going to change. My dh is a professional carpenter, no college degree. Because in this area it is often a job for high school drops out and anyone willing to swing a hammer, he gets no respect for his position and experience. :glare: Thankfully not all of his clients are that way.

 

I keep going back to the post (sorry forget who it was ...maybe you, A) that talked about people in Europe training to be waiters and that being seen as a respected and viable career option.

 

Not having attended college myself (for a plethora of reasons), I sometimes feel like people think I quit or that I can't be successful.

 

I think there should be more opportunity for on the job training, in areas where that makes sense. Apprenticeships even. Construction can not truly be learned in a classroom, some jobs just require hands on experience. I wish there were programs where experienced blue collar workers could receive a benefit (money) for training those out of high school in their field. As it is dh can't take the time to do that because he's working hard to bring home a paycheck each week. He doesn't have the luxury to stop and explain the details of what he is doing.

 

 

:iagree: wholeheartedly!! Thank you for saying these things!

[Parrothead]

There are too many fields out there where mainly those with degrees get hired even when a degree means little. It's still an expectation of the *workplace*. Now, in hard sciences and math-related fields it makes sense. But some places just want a degreed person and years of hard work and success in some other work instead doesn't seem to count. It's very disheartening. This is one of those "the whole system is flawed" kind of things that doesn't have a quick fix and so people continue to go to college so that they have the best *chance* at getting hired by anyone doing anything, related to their degree or not! Maybe not some blue collar jobs, but a LOT of jobs are tied to education when they don't need to be.

This is true. Dh could have started his job at a higher pay grade if he had a 4-year degree. (The degree did not even have to be in his field.) But, now, after 8 years on the job it doesn't matter. His willingness to move to remote parts of the country is what helped his advancement the most.

[elegantlion]

This is true. Dh could have started his job at a higher pay grade if he had a 4-year degree. (The degree did not even have to be in his field.) But, now, after 8 years on the job it doesn't matter. His willingness to move to remote parts of the country is what helped his advancement the most.

 

My dad worked without a college degree for over 35 years as a broadcast engineer at a TV station . In the late 80s they made it a requirement for new hires that they have at least a bachelor's degree. After they were hired, who trained them? Yup, my dad without the degree. :lol:

[Meriwether]

Maybe not some blue collar jobs, but a LOT of jobs are tied to education when they don't need to be.

 

 

My mom went to a private high school that tracked the students. Students could choose a basic, business, or college prep track. Mom took the business track and was hired by a bank right out of school. She worked at 5 different banks in three states (approx. 15 years of experience) before my sister was born. When my family moved to a dinky little town in Kansas, she applied for a position at the bank. They wouldn't hire her because she didn't have a degree. Nevermind she was used to serving more customers on one Friday than that bank saw in a month.

 

Both my husband and I have college degrees. Both of us could have been trained on the job.

[Heidi]

I am going to an online school to get a bachelors, not for the knowledge really, not for the supposed preparation it is supposed to give me in my desired career, but for the paper that says I have a bachelors degree. Unfortunately, it's almost like the BA has become the new diploma. I think it's a joke. ANYONE with cash in hand can attend college today, so it seems (at least online college). Some of the discussions I read from my online "classmates" astound me. I don't know if these people pass the class, but I'm assuming they do because there is a handful of them in every class I've taken so far. If I can get my children through third grade, they'll be all set for college.

[Audrey]

I think this is key.

 

 

:iagree:My dh is a farmer, a profession that is routinely ridiculed.

 

But if there were no farmers, most people wouldn't survive more than a week, now would they?

 

Story for you: Several years ago, when we still had hogs on a large scale, dh and I were at a breakfast in the "city" for a political group. There was this guy at our table going on and on about "those nasty hog farms" and those "classless hog farmers."

My dh, who is a very, very quiet person, said nothing until we were about to leave, at which point he leaned over and asked the guy if he liked the breakfast. "Oh yeah," says the guy.

 

"Well," says my dh, "you're welcome for the sausage. I'm a classless, nasty hog farmer."

 

At any rate, it probably didn't change the guy's attitude, and it will probably be a cold day in Hades before most people change their attitudes. Frankly, I couldn't give a d*mn anymore. I know that my own kid will have a positive attitude towards all kinds of work. Between my farmer dh and me with a now unused Ph.D, we've covered the spread. There are many opportunities for him to explore. In the end, I just want him to be able to pursue what calls to him and his own unique talents. I don't care if that's at university, vo-tech, or on his own.

[creekland]

Wow... I talked with a senior yesterday while at work at school... They are going to an expensive, prestigious college for a music theory and performance degree. They will have $200,000+ in debt when they graduate as they didn't get anything in scholarships from the school - minor ones otherwise (all figures freely told to me - so hearsay from the student). But they are thrilled that they got into such a prestigious school... and went on to say how they couldn't believe people that were capable of so much more would "settle" for "lower" schools. I couldn't say a thing - blown away - plus I wondered about my role in "guidance" on this being in an official capacity at school instead of me as a person.

 

There's no way I'd let any of my kids do that... (so much debt for such a low demand degree). They'll be paying it off forever.

 

Yes, I think college is important for many people today - assuming they are academically inclined. However, budgeting in the real world needs to count for something.

[Firefly]

Until recently, I'd always assumed the dc would go to college. It's just what has always been done in our family and it never occurred to me that they might not go. But over the years (and I think homeschooling has something to do with that), I've changed my view. If they decide to go into a field where a college degree is an advantage then by all means they will go. But if not, I don't plan to push them into it. I just want them to find something they love to do and pursue that, whatever it is. For me college is no longer part of the ultimate goal of our homeschool education; finding something fulfilling and being happy doing it is.

[spradlin02]

That said, my nephew never was college material and is a working mechanic. There's nothing wrong with that. It suits his ability and gifts.

 

Raise up a child in the way that THEY should go. Pushing college on everyone just isn't right - nor is denying college to those that want it.

 

I absolutely agree with giving people tools to be successful in a university atmosphere if that's what they want, but I would caution against assuming our children will be mechanics (nothing wrong with that) without a college degree. I suggest doing some research into the many people who have had successful professional lives because of their decision to not go or drop out.

[spradlin02]

Frankly, I couldn't give a d*mn anymore. I know that my own kid will have a positive attitude towards all kinds of work. Between my farmer dh and me with a now unused Ph.D, we've covered the spread. There are many opportunities for him to explore. In the end, I just want him to be able to pursue what calls to him and his own unique talents. I don't care if that's at university, vo-tech, or on his own.

 

Amen, sister. How many people in our society chase money because it's either what it's what we're told bring us happiness, or they have to because of the debt they incur; it seems a form of indentured servitude to the capitalistic system.

 

As for me, I want my children to explore and to do what makes them happy (within boundaries of expectation).

[LauraGB]

So much wisdom in this thread :). The only way I want my dc going to college is they absolutely need to to follow their dreams - I don't want dd operating on my heart without the proper training ;). Aside from specific training, I don't buy the whole "gotta go to college" thing.

 

Neither dh's nor my parents went to college. They are/were all successfully self-employed until retirement. Neither dh nor I went to college (although, both of us have taken a few classes as needed from the technical college). We are also successfully self-employed. And what is even more interesting is that dh works with metal to design his product - he had absolutely no training with technical design or metal work prior to wanting to learn it on his own. At this point in his life and career, it might not be a bad idea to take some CAD classes.

 

I will support my dc if they have a purpose for going to college. If they just want to go because it's expected (all their friends do, or because it might be fun), well, I might be a hard sell there. Also, I'm not completely convinced a decision for what you want to do for the rest of your working life should be made at 17 or 18 years old. If they want to go to college after they have a little "life" under their belts, then that might be a good time to consider it. IRL, I don't think I know anyone who is employed in an occupation that requires their earned degree. But I do know that they have to work pretty hard to pay for that degree after the fact, and I find it ironic that they earn the money doing something other than where their training lies.

[creekland]

IRL, I don't think I know anyone who is employed in an occupation that requires their earned degree. But I do know that they have to work pretty hard to pay for that degree after the fact, and I find it ironic that they earn the money doing something other than where their training lies.

 

Interesting... IRL hubby absolutely uses his degree as a Civil Engineer and the majority of our friends that have degrees use theirs too - from English to MD. (We also have friends without degrees too, but that's a different issue.) I wonder how much our IRL experiences are due to the groups we naturally hang out with...

 

All that said, I still say one of the biggest factors for us is to be sure our boys have the ability to earn a decent living wage while doing something they are talented at and enjoy. I DO want them going to four year schools, but that is partially because that also suits them. Their degree will be their choice - and we won't let them get into $200,000 of debt! (Or even 1/4th of that.)

[LauraGB]

Interesting... IRL hubby absolutely uses his degree as a Civil Engineer and the majority of our friends that have degrees use theirs too - from English to MD. (We also have friends without degrees too, but that's a different issue.) I wonder how much our IRL experiences are due to the groups we naturally hang out with...

 

 

 

Oh, I'm definitely not saying no one uses theirs! Just not anyone I personally know. And most of our peers have a degree of some sort.

 

Actually, I did just think of someone who does use her degree. She is a RN, but she just recently went back to nursing - she did something completely different for almost 15 years.

[MorganClassicalPrep]

Also, I'm not completely convinced a decision for what you want to do for the rest of your working life should be made at 17 or 18 years old. If they want to go to college after they have a little "life" under their belts, then that might be a good time to consider it.

 

I completely agree with this statement. I'm 24 and just now finishing up my 2nd year of college. When I was 17 or 18, I wasn't thinking about issues such as children, working hours, flexibility of the job, etc.etc. I would have made my decision based on what I wanted to do at the time.

 

When I started college last year I was able to consider things like my daughter, and realize that I needed a job with a flexible schedule, making enough to support the two of us. I was also more aware of my true interests and not just whatever was a passing fancy.

 

I'd like my DD to do some travelling after high school. Maybe be a nanny in another country for a year, or work with a church missionary, or... something exciting! :001_smile:

[NanceXToo]

Not only did my husband not go to college, he is a high school dropout. Today he owns his own business (after apprenticing himself first), and while we are not rich by any means, he's doing well enough that we can afford for me to be a stay-at-home, homeschooling mom and to have the things we need and a decent amount of what we want.

 

I only have a two-year degree myself from when I attended a business college to learn how to be a secretary. For a while I worked as an administrative assistant, a legal secretary, now I'm home with my kids and not using that degree. I've had a few articles published in a homeschooling magazine and I'm starting to explore whether I can branch out with that a little bit. It's mostly still just for fun and for a little bit of extra pocket money but when I write something and get something published, it stems from natural talent, not a college education.

 

I have a cousin who has been going to college for what seems like forever, very smart, good grades, more specialized field- she can't find a job.

 

College is not the be all, end all. It just isn't. I agree that it's not the only, and sometimes not even the best, way. Especially for the amount of debt it puts you into and the difficulty you could have finding work anyway. Of course, it depends largely on the individual and what they want to do with their lives to begin with.

[justamouse]

My next door neighbor's kids all go to technical school AND then to college (normally with a free ride) but they're in college with a license. It also gave them the opportunity to not go to college if they so wanted.

 

Here's the thing-a waiter/ress a GOOD one, has a set of skills and talent a lot of people don't have. Think a high end NYC water who brings in 100k. No way, no how I could do their job.

 

I couldn't do a lot of jobs people think are menial. I watch Holms on Homes and my head spins. I have no talent for 'swinging a hammer" and it's so NOT 'swinging a hammer'. Granted, in every field there are people who shouldn't be there-but the ones that should? They are artists in their own right. And as a society we do ourselves a disservice to think otherwise. We also do our children a disservice when we don't let them realize their own potential, with or without a college degree. If we're doing our job (as Asta has found) they will have already done thier college work and can go on to be productive well adjusted people no matter what they choose to do.

 

Dh and I have no degrees yet make 6 figures and are set for retirement (with 7 kids and I'm a SAHM). Wisdom doesn't come with a piece of paper.

Edited May 19, 2010 by justamouse
spelling

[asta]

I'm going to get "tomatoed" for this one, but I don't see Engineering as something that even belongs at a university. I see it as belonging at a polytechnic institute - along with things like drafting and architecture (and yes, I see where art comes into architecture, but the reality is, a huge number of architects really don't give a hoot about that aspect, they take their one designated class and are done with it).

 

I think society has "university-ized" a huge number of degrees that don't really belong there any longer simply because the required course progression for said degrees don't even allow for a standard "university core" if the student is to finish within a reasonable time frame. And if the student dares to not declare their major the first semester of their first year - they are completely off track.

 

Like I said - throw the tomatoes - but look up your alma mater and see what the course requirements and course progression are now for the degree you took back then.

 

 

a

[jld]

I don't really understand your second paragraph, asta. Would you please give an example? Thank you!

[creekland]

I don't see Engineering as something that even belongs at a university. I see it as belonging at a polytechnic institute - along with things like drafting and architecture (and yes, I see where art comes into architecture, but the reality is, a huge number of architects really don't give a hoot about that aspect, they take their one designated class and are done with it).

 

a

 

Hubby's Engineering degree is from Va Tech - whose full name is Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University. The College of Engineering is one of several colleges that is distinct within the overall heading. Civil Engineering is ranked in the top 10 in the nation. Architecture is there too - sometimes ranked #1 in the nation. Does that make you feel better? ;)

[Mejane]

I agree with you and it shouldn't take 4 years.

 

I agree with both of you. There's no reason training to become an engineer, teacher or nurse (just to name a few) should take more than two years. There is so much fluff involved in four years of college. Folks who want to be purposefully academic can pursue a liberal arts education and years of english lit, latin, or whatever their heart desires. It's just not necessary for the majority of people who simply wish to work. Cut the fat and train them for the job already.

[asta]

I don't really understand your second paragraph, asta. Would you please give an example? Thank you!

 

"I think society has "university-ized" a huge number of degrees that don't really belong there any longer simply because the required course progression for said degrees don't even allow for a standard "university core" if the student is to finish within a reasonable time frame. And if the student dares to not declare their major the first semester of their first year - they are completely off track. "

 

Certainly.

 

Let's look at the #1 ranked civil engineering program in the United States, UC Berkeley. To matriculate, a student needs a whopping six classes in the humanities (which, to them, means language and history). To take more "non-major" coursework means the student must spend more time (and $$) at the university and not matriculate "on time".

 

I ask you, why bother? If the premise behind "going to uni" is "learning how to think, broadening one's horizons" - how is that happening in such an insular environment? Would a person, desiring to become a civil engineer, not be better served, then, by attending a polytechnic institute? It is, after all, the place one goes to get specialty training in sciences, engineering, computing, etc.

 

Perhaps I am just old, but when I attended uni, everyone walking through the doors had to do a common core of coursework that included a broad spectrum of classes from throughout the uni - not just "well, you're already taking a ton of math and science, so here: take some English and History and we'll call it even". We had to take 30 hours of a liberal studies common core. I believe that, in this manner, students were forced out of a singular mindset and into a more global one, which is my personal belief of what one should be doing when one goes to uni.

 

"Becoming educated" is not the same as "I think I'll get this degree so I can get a job". But then again, I don't think unis should be viewed as job training factories, either. And that discussion has already been had on this board.

 

 

a

[creekland]

I agree with both of you. There's no reason training to become an engineer, teacher or nurse (just to name a few) should take more than two years. There is so much fluff involved in four years of college.

 

Wow... this is so not true for Civil Engineering anyway... wow. Do you have any idea how much "stuff" a Civil Engineer has to know? And still feel it can all be learned in two years? I'd like to see you try. Hubby was continuing to study AFTER working for a few years just to get his PE license. And if he were to make a mistake, there's a lot on the line at times. There's not much "fluff" in engineering.

 

While I can agree that some classes offered at college make one go, "huh," a lot of what people call fluff many of the rest of us call a "well rounded education" not so terribly unlike TWM.

[asta]

Hubby's Engineering degree is from Va Tech - whose full name is Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University. The College of Engineering is one of several colleges that is distinct within the overall heading. Civil Engineering is ranked in the top 10 in the nation. Architecture is there too - sometimes ranked #1 in the nation. Does that make you feel better? ;)

 

And before that, Agricultural and Mechanical College and Polytechnic Institute, and before that, Virginia Agricultural and Mechanical College. I have always found the history of the Land Grant schools to be fascinating. Per Wiki:

 

"The mission of these institutions as set forth in the 1862 Act is to focus on the teaching of agriculture, science and engineering as a response to the industrial revolution and changing social class rather than higher education's historic core of classical studies."

 

It is amazing how they have morphed over the years due to societal expectations, no?

 

 

a

[Mejane]

Wow... this is so not true for Civil Engineering anyway... wow. Do you have any idea how much "stuff" a Civil Engineer has to know? And still feel it can all be learned in two years? I'd like to see you try. Hubby was continuing to study AFTER working for a few years just to get his PE license. And if he were to make a mistake, there's a lot on the line at times. There's not much "fluff" in engineering.

 

While I can agree that some classes offered at college make one go, "huh," a lot of what people call fluff many of the rest of us call a "well rounded education" not so terribly unlike TWM.

 

Ok, relax. I wasn't denigrating engineers. My husband is one; I know how difficult it is. I meant that all the english, history, and other general ed requirements take a lot of time and are really unnecessary to most degrees. Those skills should have been mastered in high school. This has been discussed ad nauseum on this very board. College is not TWTM, and I dare say most people go to college to get a degree so they can get a job. As I said, there's always liberal arts for those who want to be especially "well-rounded."

Edited May 19, 2010 by Mejane

[creekland]

And before that, Agricultural and Mechanical College and Polytechnic Institute, and before that, Virginia Agricultural and Mechanical College. I have always found the history of the Land Grant schools to be fascinating. Per Wiki:

 

"The mission of these institutions as set forth in the 1862 Act is to focus on the teaching of agriculture, science and engineering as a response to the industrial revolution and changing social class rather than higher education's historic core of classical studies."

 

It is amazing how they have morphed over the years due to societal expectations, no?

 

 

a

 

Some of it actually hasn't changed all that much, but they have certainly added and added and added...

 

I think part of the "issue" on this post is partially that there are two differing ideas. Engineers do usually just get trained for their job as there is so much they have to learn and know (or else people get mad at "stupid engineers that don't know their job and make mistakes). Other liberal arts degrees are more varied and more WTM "ish." Hubby's the first. I'm the latter. Same overall University. Both get sloshed together in "are college degrees worthwhile" threads.

 

Universities often offer both, but generally under separate "colleges." Colleges generally specialize. Even that's not a hard rule though. Just as there is no hard rule/answer to the "worthwhile" question. It all depends on variables.

[TravelingChris]

My dh is a physicist but works with lots of engineers. He sees a great need for many scientists and engineers to have better communication skills both in writing and speech. Now for him personally, the fact that he has both the math/science skills and the communication skills works very well to his advantage and even more so for as long as others are not so similarly skilled. But for the future of our country, he sees some more humanities and social science courses for science/engineering grads to be a good thing.

 

Oh, and Paula, I had previously posted about how workers in Europe were proud of their professions, even if not college educated since majority isn;t. We had the best movers there we have ever had and we move frequently. It wasn't a temporary job for them. It was a true profession and our service was so much better because they had that view.

[creekland]

Ok, relax. I wasn't denegrating engineers. My husband is one; I know how difficult it is. I meant that all the english, history, and other general ed requirements take a lot of time and are really unnecessary to most degrees. Those skills should have been mastered in high school. This has been discussed ad nauseum on this very board. College is not TWTM, and I dare say most people go to college to get a degree so they can get a job. As I said, there's always liberal arts for those who want to be especially "well-rounded."

 

Granted, where your hubby went things could be different, but as Asta pointed out, even at the #1 Engineering school, only 6 classes are required outside of the major. That's less than one year of time. It's practically one semester. At VT, hubby didn't take any English or History or Languages, etc, etc, unless you count Technical Writing - which is a course he definitely needed and produced skills he uses on a daily basis. I think now students need more than then, but it's still not much.

[elegantlion]

 

Oh, and Paula, I had previously posted about how workers in Europe were proud of their professions, even if not college educated since majority isn;t. We had the best movers there we have ever had and we move frequently. It wasn't a temporary job for them. It was a true profession and our service was so much better because they had that view.

 

Thank you, now I know who to credit.

[justamouse]

Ok, relax. I wasn't denigrating engineers. My husband is one; I know how difficult it is. I meant that all the english, history, and other general ed requirements take a lot of time and are really unnecessary to most degrees. Those skills should have been mastered in high school. This has been discussed ad nauseum on this very board. College is not TWTM, and I dare say most people go to college to get a degree so they can get a job. As I said, there's always liberal arts for those who want to be especially "well-rounded."

 

That's the money sentence, right there. By the time you get to 'college' you should be able to focus on something specific if you choose, not be taught the lessons you were supposed to learn in HS.

[spradlin02]

At our local community college, you can take college credit level courses starting in the sophomore year of high school. It's cheaper in the short and long. While I don't advocate the necessity of college, I will strongly encourage my children to go in that direction while they have the opportunity.

 

What strikes me is the oft quoted metric that the value of college rests in an increase in income earning potential. That to me is one of the fundamental flaws of our educational system. We're not raising children to think creatively and be drawn into their natural areas of interest and intelligence, but instead, we hang the fetid, evanescent carrot of wealth in front of them.

 

Don't even get me started.

[spradlin02]

Ok, relax. I wasn't denigrating engineers. My husband is one; I know how difficult it is. I meant that all the english, history, and other general ed requirements take a lot of time and are really unnecessary to most degrees. Those skills should have been mastered in high school. This has been discussed ad nauseum on this very board. College is not TWTM, and I dare say most people go to college to get a degree so they can get a job. As I said, there's always liberal arts for those who want to be especially "well-rounded."

 

Wow... this is so not true for Civil Engineering anyway... wow. Do you have any idea how much "stuff" a Civil Engineer has to know? And still feel it can all be learned in two years? I'd like to see you try. Hubby was continuing to study AFTER working for a few years just to get his PE license. And if he were to make a mistake, there's a lot on the line at times. There's not much "fluff" in engineering.

 

While I can agree that some classes offered at college make one go, "huh," a lot of what people call fluff many of the rest of us call a "well rounded education" not so terribly unlike TWM.

 

So...

A pastor, a doctor and an engineer were waiting one morning for a particularly slow group of golfers. The engineer fumed, "What's with these guys? We must have been waiting for 15 minutes!" The doctor chimed in, "I don't know, but I've never seen such ineptitude!" The pastor said, "Hey, here comes the greens keeper. Let's have a word with him."

"Hi, George. Say, what's with that group ahead of us? They're rather slow, aren't they?" The greens keeper replied, "Oh, yes, that's a group of blind firefighters who lost their sight saving our clubhouse from a fire last year, so we always let them play for free anytime."

 

 

 

The group was silent for a moment. The pastor said, "That's so sad. I think I will say a special prayer for them tonight."

 

 

 

The doctor said, "Good idea. And I'm going to contact my ophthalmologist buddy and see if there's anything he can do for them."

 

 

 

The engineer said, "Why can't these guys play at night?"

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

 

What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers?

Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

:lol::lol::lol: