Why do we start at 5?

[EmilyGF]

Hi All,

 

I have a 5 year old and visit this board. Currently, I have a Japanese woman staying with me and she is *shocked* that I do school (30 minutes a day - 20 minutes Right Start A, 10 minutes phonics) with my son. In Japan, where the students are no slouches, school starts at 7. Finland starts at 7, too. What's up with this 5 years old stuff?

 

Any opinions?

 

Emily

[Jumping In Puddles]

:lurk5:

[EppieJ]

Who knows? Especially when you consider that, at least in this state, compulsory attendance is age 8! (At least it was the last time I checked) And I say this knowing full well that I was once a preschool teacher and was very anxious to begin preschool lessons with my ds when he was that age. It's just a fun age for me!

Edited May 1, 2010 by EppieJ

[Guest MarieM in PA]

hmm.... wiki says they start first grade at age 6

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_schools_in_Japan

 

that seems to be the age of most first graders here in the US.

 

Does Japan have kindergarten?

[EmilyGF]

Hmmm. My visitor (who has 12, 11, and 8 yo) said they go to school to learn reading and writing starting at 7. She told me there is preschool but reading and writing generally start after 7.

 

Emily

[Aubrey]

Because it's too much fun to wait longer? ;)

[Guest]

It's partly because the U.S. (and the U.K.) have this idea that bigger and faster always equals better. Surely we can ramp up education by starting younger -- despite the fact that studies have shown any advantage from beginning formal academics younger in general washes out by third grade, and despite the fact that pushing early reading and writing gives us, if i remember rightly, one of the highest rates (if not the highest) of learning disabilities and dyslexia in the world.

 

I think part of the reason also lies in the economics of our society and the heavy pressure to have dual-income families. Families with both parents working need their kids in full-time school as soon as possible, and they need before and after school care as well. My understanding is that formal, required schooling in some countries may begin at age 7, but many kids are in play-based preschools until then. I have no personal experience but have read a number of books about Japanese education, and I think many kids attend a kind of kindergarten that is focused on having the kids learn how to be ready to learn: practicing transitions from one activity to another, finding their work materials, knowing to quiet down when the teacher wants their attention, learning to play and work (not necessarily academic paperwork) in groups, etc. then when formal school starts, the control is already there and there is little wasted time compared to public school here.

 

I can truly understand the pressure to get kids in school so that parents can work. What I do not understand is the general cultural unwillingness to have play-based learning for kids who are still so young. Why sit them down at tables and make so much of their day paper-based and regimented? The only reasons I can come up with are that it makes it easier to control the kids, and that it all feeds into standardized testing, which begins at younger and younger ages.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Guest

[Ray]

"I owe, I owe, so off to work I go"

 

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

[In The Great White North]

Actually, we don't all start at 5.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167051

[Lori D.]

I would guess it is a historical/cultural decision in the U.S., based on the increased need by single-parents (or families in which BOTH parents began working full-time) to have a structured full-day situation for their children. Schools began to see they could compete for those daycare dollars by offering kindergartens, and then pre-school classes. And since you're calling it "school" and not just "daycare happening at a school building", you need to provide schoolwork, with the great marketing angle of: "We'll give your child an educational head start!"

 

However, more and more we are seeing that just because you offer formal education at a younger age does NOT mean the student is mentally and emotionally READY to do so, or will even benefit from it. In fact, most students who are "behind" in reading or other school subjects in the first few grades, have caught up by grade 5 -- and there is no discernible difference after grade 5 between a student who started formal education at age 5, vs. one who started at age 7 or 8 (unless it might be a weariness of school on the part of the one who started earlier! :tongue_smilie:).

 

Someone posted in a recent thread about a study that showed that the more physical and outdoor activities a young child can participate in, the more it helps their BRAINS develop, so that by ages 6-8 they are more physiologically mature/developed to be ABLE to learn math, reading, etc. more easily and quickly! Sounds like Japan, Finland and others are on the right track that sooner is NOT always better...

 

Just my 2 cents worth! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Lori D.]

LOL! Karen Anne we said basically the same thing -- you just beat me to it by 6 minutes! ;)

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

:lurk5:

[Rosie_0801]

I think there is a big difference between an half an hour of academics at the kitchen table with Mum and being away from Mum for six hours in a classroom setting. I started "doing school" with my dd a few days on/a few days off before she turned three because she and I get along better if we do that. Of course, being a barely verbal three year old, school is art, Auslan, talking about colours and numbers, and crashing blocks. Hardly academic stuff. She is very happy with this 'schedule' at home, but wouldn't be at all obliging if I sent her off to kinder to do the same things.

 

Rosie

[StartingOver]

Here mandatory isn't till 6. In our home we start when the kids are interested, be that 2 or 8.

[Barb_]

Someone posted in a recent thread about a study that showed that the more physical and outdoor activities a young child can participate in, the more it helps their BRAINS develop, so that by ages 6-8 they are more physiologically mature/developed to be ABLE to learn math, reading, etc. more easily and quickly! Sounds like Japan, Finland and others are on the right track that sooner is NOT always better...

 

Just my 2 cents worth! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

In addition to outdoor play, interactive imaginative play build up the executive function portion of the brain responsible for self-control, goal setting, planning and prioritizing. Here is an article on the importance of play: NPR: Creative Play Makes for Kids in Control

 

So it really depends on your household. If your child or children are dependent on you to entertain them or keep them out of trouble, then formal academics are a good way to focus them and create structure. If you are chomping at the bit and your kids enjoy the seatwork, then formal schoolwork is a way to spend time together without resorting to the 432nd game of Candyland. But if your kids aren't ready to be still, or they are some of your younger set and life is just too busy and exciting to give up imaginative play, they aren't going to be hurt at all by delaying academics. I learned this the hard way.

 

Let me give you an anecdotal example of our experience. My 10 almost 11 was finally diagnosed with ADHD and put on Ritalin last year after much soul-searching and resistance on my part. The decision was made in no small part because I was so worried about her academics. It's not only that she couldn't sit still long enough to learn something, but that concepts I knew were well within the range of her ability to comprehend were just escaping her. She was beginning the 3rd year of Singapore Math 3rd grade. Not only that, her 7yo sister had "caught" adhd, in the sense that she looked up to and was influenced by Sarah, so she was exhibiting adhd behaviors that I knew weren't natural to her.

 

Neither child had done much at all in the way of formal academics before last fall. But they had ample time to do the planned, imaginative play described in the above article. I started them slowly, both at the 3rd grade level for most of their subjects. We worked for about 2-3 hours a day. We are winding down our year and Sarah has jumped 2-3 grade levels this year. All of her leveled subjects are at 5th-6th grade level. Best of all, we finished 3rd grade and 4th grade Singapore and are halfway through 5th. Mia is at the 3rd to 5th grade level across the board. They are both 2/3 of the way though Latin I and we are working about 5-6 hours a day with no struggles and no burnout. I am totally thrilled. It's entirely possible to skip formal academics with a bright young child and end up pretty close to where you would have been anyway.

 

My oldest hid in her room for her entire 13th year and did nothing but read. She had been through Algebra I and half of Algebra II and just stalled out. She quit doing math for almost 18 months during this period. At 14, she emerged from hibernation, enrolled in college classes (taking and scoring an A in a 300 level German Civ class her first year), and joined the land of the living. She wound up going all the way though Calc III before graduation and went to college on scholarship as a NM finalist.

 

I'm not saying my way is for everyone, but it's a mistake to think that all learning is linear, stepped, and perfectly proportional. Children can start late and end up ahead. They can drop in at the middle place and pick up the material at a higher level. It all depends on what they are doing with their time. Exercise, imaginative play, household chores, and interactions with friends and siblings create neural connections where eventually math equations and reading comprehension will travel. The brain is mysterious.

 

Barb

Edited May 1, 2010 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[Classically Minded]

Who knows? Especially when you consider that, at least in this state, compulsory attendance is age 8!

 

It is 8 years old in the state of Washington.

[m4given]

Here mandatory isn't till 6. In our home we start when the kids are interested, be that 2 or 8.

:iagree: Also like and am in agreement with what Lori D posted.

[Barb_]

:iagree: Also like and am in agreement with what Lori D posted.

 

Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with starting early as long as it's fairly stress free and mostly pleasant for all parties involved. There is also nothing wrong with beginning later because starting 'behind' doesn't mean you must start with Kindergarten or even 1st grade materials at age age. You simply start them at their comprehension level.

 

Barb

[Guest]

 

My oldest hid in her room for her entire 13th year and did nothing but read. She had been through Algebra I and half of Algebra II and just stalled out. She quit doing math for almost 18 months during this period. At 14, she emerged from hibernation, enrolled in college classes (taking and scoring an A in a 300 level German Civ class her first year), and joined the land of the living. She wound up going all the way though Calc III before graduation and went to college on scholarship as a NM finalist.

 

I'm not saying my way is for everyone, but it's a mistake to think that all learning is linear, stepped, and perfectly proportional. Children can start late and end up ahead. They can drop in at the middle place and pick up the material at a higher level. It all depends on what they are doing with their time. Exercise, imaginative play, household chores, and interactions with friends and siblings create neural connections where eventually math equations and reading comprehension will travel. The brain is mysterious.

 

Barb

 

Wow, you have no idea how timely this is for me. My daughter tried, at her own request, an elite private school last fall and "stalled out" by November: a combination of stress, boredom, and mono. For several months afterwards she did nothing but read Star Trek books and go through the series on DVDs. I was so panicked, trying to figure out how we would ever get through high school at home. I still am panicked, truthfully. Despite the fact that she is slowly re-engaging in other things, writing creatively, going to musicals and plays, etc., she is not doing anything that would remotely resemble a typical or full 8th grader's schedule. Yet somehow, when she reads satires or spoofs on things ranging from journalism to movie-making to soccer, she has learned about them and understands the satire. I have no idea how.

 

You are so courageous and so wise to have given your daughter the time to work through that inwardness and solitary learning her own way. It gives me hope to know that my child's own internal schedule is part of a spectrum of ways that kids' learning unfolds. I've always felt learning is not linear and in my child neither is it incremental. Thanks for the validation of my own very shaky and unconfident intuitions about my child.

[Guest]

LOL! Karen Anne we said basically the same thing -- you just beat me to it by 6 minutes! ;)

 

We must be reading a lot of the same things!

[Kate CA]

Why do we start at 5?

 

 

I don't! :D

[LibraryLover]

Mostly so people can do this: :banghead::rant:

[Heather in VA]

Because young kids soak up the wonders of their world and crave the learning. Of course this isn't what happens in a full day industrial kindergarten but it's certainly what happens in many homeschool families. So it does kind of confuse me when those same homeschool families talk of early schooling as a detriment.

 

Heather

[Barb_]

Yet somehow, when she reads satires or spoofs on things ranging from journalism to movie-making to soccer, she has learned about them and understands the satire. I have no idea how.

 

It's crazy, isn't it? I don't know why, but some kids need to need a sabatical.

 

You are so courageous and so wise to have given your daughter the time to work through that inwardness and solitary learning her own way. It gives me hope to know that my child's own internal schedule is part of a spectrum of ways that kids' learning unfolds. I've always felt learning is not linear and in my child neither is it incremental. Thanks for the validation of my own very shaky and unconfident intuitions about my child.

 

Thank you for the kind words. It only looks wise in hindsight. Like you, I was just following my intuition about the needs of this particular child. At first I thought, "Well, she's ahead so some time off really can't hurt in the long run." Then when I'd decided enough was enough we had some struggles where she would promise to turn over a new leaf and then disappoint me and herself. It wasn't like she was lazy...it was like her brain ran out her ear. She just wasn't of this world. Out of desperation I let her finish out the year just reading, sleeping and thinking and thought I could always enroll her in high school if things didn't improve by the fall. Then I just backed off. During the summer, she asked if she could try college classes. I think she was as surprised as I was. She said she wasn't sure how it happened, but the fog lifted and she felt like herself again.

 

You know, some children have no interest in walking and simply sit until they are somewhere around 15 months and then just take off at a run. Others practice and practice and fall all over the place from 9-12 months until they get it. Still others climb before they walk. Some walk at 8 months but then they drive you crazy getting into everything because they are mobile before they are developmentally ready to understand "no". Kids are funny and development is highly individual. There's no reason to believe every child will benefit from early academics or will suffer from the lack thereof. There is also no reason to believe that every child will suffer from the early introduction of academics either. Individualization is a large part of why most of us homeschool.

 

Barb

[StartingOver]

Because young kids soak up the wonders of their world and crave the learning. Of course this isn't what happens in a full day industrial kindergarten but it's certainly what happens in many homeschool families. So it does kind of confuse me when those same homeschool families talk of early schooling as a detriment.

 

Heather

 

:iagree: In all my years of homeschooling I still haven't seen a family that expected their 5 or under child to sit at a table and do 6-8 hours of seat work. Most do a few minutes of phonics, then play outside, a few minute of reading, then get out the playdoh, a few minutes of math, lunch, more play outside, some read alouds, etc, etc, etc. Homeschooling in most homes I have seen is just an extension of parenting until later. Children learn from everything around them.

 

I just can imagine a child would sit still for lengthy formal lessons, at least any 2-5 year old I know. :D

 

These threads always make me laugh.

[Heather in VA]

:iagree: In all my years of homeschooling I still haven't seen a family that expected their 5 or under child to sit at a table and do 6-8 hours of seat work. Most do a few minutes of phonics, then play outside, a few minute of reading, then get out the playdoh, a few minutes of math, lunch, more play outside, some read alouds, etc, etc, etc. Homeschooling in most homes I have seen is just an extension of parenting until later. Children learn from everything around them.

 

I just can imagine a child would sit still for lengthy formal lessons, at least any 2-5 year old I know. :D

 

These threads always make me laugh.

 

LOL - this is what my 1st grader's day looks. Add to that list multiple trips outside to the trampoline to "bounce my wiggles out mom' - and you have our day LOL. Heck - even the 5th and 9th grader wanders out for a bounce or two every once in a while. :-)

 

Heather

[Spy Car]

I think you can have fun engaging playtime that is also "educational" and that can happen before the age of 5, because children's brains are already growing rapidly at that age.

 

And while it is great to let them have totally free-play, where they invent their own scenarios, there is much to be said for the kind of "guided discovery" a child can have with things such as Cuisenaire Rod play and adapted Miquon and Miquon-like activities.

 

Why miss this window when there are age-appropriate means of brain-building?

 

Bill

[Guest]

Because young kids soak up the wonders of their world and crave the learning. Of course this isn't what happens in a full day industrial kindergarten but it's certainly what happens in many homeschool families. So it does kind of confuse me when those same homeschool families talk of early schooling as a detriment.

 

Heather

 

Of course kids are eager, curious, and learning at this age; of course some kids are ready and begging to read -- or are already reading; and many enjoy a few colorful worksheets, a handwriting program, games, art, and other activities spread out during a day that also contains plenty of free play and running around.

 

I don't think this what some of the posters were warning against. Rather, we're talking about the developmental inappropriateness of full-day academic kindergarten where five-year-old kids are expected to be sitting, reading, writing, filling out worksheets and doing math workbooks for a number of hours during the day, being tested by the district, state, and nation several times during the year, etc. This is a very different creature.

[LibraryLover]

I think you can have fun engaging playtime that is also "educational" and that can happen before the age of 5, because children's brains are already growing rapidly at that age.

 

And while it is great to let them have totally free-play, where they invent their own scenarios, there is much to be said for the kind of "guided discovery" a child can have with things such as Cuisenaire Rod play and adapted Miquon and Miquon-like activities.

 

Why miss this window when there are age-appropriate means of brain-building?

 

Bill

 

 

There you go with age- apporpriate, Bill. Kids can't learn anything unless we force them to do developmentally inappropriate crapola. You know, that head-banging smilie. I can honestly say I have never felt that way (need to vent or band my head against the wall ) and my kids are smart cookies. I would also bet that those 'slow' Finnish kids (who outscore American kids) are learning tons of stuff before age 7, but it might not look like a heap of dull work worthy of head -banging.

Edited May 2, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Ellie]

Because parents need somewhere to stash their dc while they all go to work. Because the state gets $$ for children who are enrolled, so they encourage it and make us all think our dc will be functionally illiterate or socially unacceptable if they don't start school that young.

[LibraryLover]

Because parents need somewhere to stash their dc while they all go to work. Because the state gets $$ for children who are enrolled, so they encourage it and make us all think our dc will be functionally illiterate or socially unacceptable if they don't start school that young.

 

 

How do you explain the predictable and multitudes of posts here where mothers lament how lazy their 5 and 6 yr olds are, and how they don't 'get it!' and 'don't try!"

[Spy Car]

There you go with age- apporpriate, Bill. Kids can't learn anything unless we force them to do developmentally inappropriate crapola. You know, that head-banging smilie. I can honestly say I have never felt that way (need to vent or band my head against the wall ) and my kids are smart cookies. I would also bet that those 'slow' Finnish kids (who outscore American kids) are learning tons of stuff before age 7, but it might not look like a heap of dull work worthy of head -banging.

 

I bet you are right that the Finnish children are being enriched with developmentally appropriate means prior to starting school.

 

We never have never had any head-banging here either, but there was a heck of a lot of enriching play (child led and otherwise) between infancy and now (almost 6). And I couldn't be happier that we didn't "wait" until 6 or 7 to begin stimulating cognitive function beyond play (which was also facilitated and encouraged). There is always a 3rd way.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Because parents need somewhere to stash their dc while they all go to work. Because the state gets $$ for children who are enrolled, so they encourage it and make us all think our dc will be functionally illiterate or socially unacceptable if they don't start school that young.

 

Gosh, my son attends a kindergarten at a very fine public school where the children are thriving, where the parents are involved, and there is a lot of very fun learning going on.

 

This doesn't resonate with me at all.

 

Bill

[Sunkirst]

I haven't read many of the other replies, but after my first experience (with ds 12), I am a proponent of "delayed" academics.

 

At age 4, my ds was super interested in everything, could listen to lengthy stories with no pictures, had this incredible imagination, knew his letter sounds, loved to practice "kitty writing" and could count past 20. I was so excited to start teaching him (overzealous?), and I expected that he'd be reading and writing in no time flat.

 

Long story short, he wasn't ready for formal academics, and I didn't have the knowledge or gumption or trust to just stop and wait. I seriously believe that early academics was a causal factor in his dyslexia. Certainly, it affected our relationship.

 

My lesson? I will wait until my girls come to me. My 6 yo asked to learn to read at Christmas this past year, and is already at a 2nd grade reading level. I'm not an unschooler, or "interest-led," but I do believe that readiness is key, and that for most kids, preschool and K (and for some, 1 and 2) should be spent learning through imagination and play.

[Spy Car]

How do you explain the predictable and multitudes of posts here where mothers lament how lazy their 5 and 6 yr olds are, and how they don't 'get it!' and 'don't try!"

 

I think it's because they are using inappropriate methods that don't actually help a child learn, and this leads to frustration for both the parent and the child. "Waiting" doesn't solve the problem, it just kicks the can down the road. While ignoring the source of the problem.

 

Bill

[LibraryLover]

I think it's because they are using inappropriate methods that don't actually help a child learn, and this leads to frustration for both the parent and the child. "Waiting" doesn't solve the problem, it just kicks the can down the road. While ignoring the source of the problem.

 

Bill

 

 

Thank you, Dick Tracy. ;)

 

What does Ellie have to say.

[LibraryLover]

My 10 yr old, who has had intense content, and awesome exposure to whathaveyou, but who has never had to suffer though inapprproate busy or boring work said to me yesterday, "I was thinking about Behavioral Science today. It seems to me that a person could study any number of intersting topics and not have to go to medical school. You could do a PhD and never have to cut someone open. I was worried about that. I am so interested in how people think and why they think what they do, but I am not interested in medical school". ;)

 

I was 10000% supportive, as she had previosuly been consumed with the idea of psychiatry and medical shool. (And don't ask me why...she has had no experience in that area. lol )

 

"Babe, Behavioral Science is probably your bag! Except for a biology course ot two, you probably won't have to cut open a whole human cadaver".

 

I am telling you, she skipped away, happy as a skipping clam, before I could say, "But someday you might really want to open up the whole cadaver" LOL She has never learned that learning is boring or painful. She reads at a high school level (not talking about decoding-- she has no issues there--I am talking about her thought process), her math understanding nearly that. I could probably nudge her to that level, but she hasn't asked and I have no interest. There is so much time to do what ever she wants, when she wants. She is so smart...such a thnker. I really want her to stay her in a world where play is the thing. There is no turning back once a child leaves fantasy play behind. I don't want her readng books that would interfere with her childhood. Because a young child can read and understand everyting, does not mean they need to be burdened with such information. She might be able to tell you the theme of Animal Farm, but I am not going to put The Economist, or The Hunt For Bin Laden on her bedstand.

Edited May 2, 2010 by LibraryLover

[2squared]

I am telling you, she skipped away, happy as a skipping clam, before I could say, "But someday you might really want to open up the whole cadaver" LOL She has never learned that learning is boring or painful. She reads at a high school level (not talking about decoding-- I am talking about her thought process), her math understanding nearly that. I could probably nudge her to that level, but she hasn't asked and I have no interest. There is so much time to do what ever she wants, when she wants. She is so smart...such a thnker. I really want her to stay her in a world where play is the thing. There is no turning back once a child leaves fantasy play behind. I don't want her readng books that would interfere with her childhood. Because a young child can read and understand everyting, does not mean they need to be burdened with such information. She might be able to tell you the theme of Animal Farm, but I am not going to put The Economist, or The Hunt For Bin Laden on her bedstand.

 

Lovely, lovely post.

[DarlaS]

I would also bet that those 'slow' Finnish kids (who outscore American kids) are learning tons of stuff before age 7, but it might not look like a heap of dull work worthy of head -banging.

 

Count on it. Some of it probably looks like they're just watching TV.

 

They have subtitles on their TV (most of their programming is not broadcast in Finnish since they don't exactly have a big movie industry there) and these kids are motivated to learn to read so they can know what's going on.

Edited May 2, 2010 by darlasowders

[StartingOver]

I think you can have fun engaging playtime that is also "educational" and that can happen before the age of 5, because children's brains are already growing rapidly at that age.

 

And while it is great to let them have totally free-play, where they invent their own scenarios, there is much to be said for the kind of "guided discovery" a child can have with things such as Cuisenaire Rod play and adapted Miquon and Miquon-like activities.

 

Why miss this window when there are age-appropriate means of brain-building?

 

Bill

 

:iagree: and my older children who are now graduates, planning on homeschooling their own children agree. There is a balance between work and play.... or should be at every age from 2 to 92.

[Ellie]

How do you explain the predictable and multitudes of posts here where mothers lament how lazy their 5 and 6 yr olds are, and how they don't 'get it!' and 'don't try!"

Those kinds of comments make me crazy. :glare:

[Lori D.]

Of course kids are eager, curious, and learning at this age; of course some kids are ready and begging to read -- or are already reading; and many enjoy a few colorful worksheets, a handwriting program, games, art, and other activities spread out during a day that also contains plenty of free play and running around.

 

I don't think this what some of the posters were warning against. Rather, we're talking about the developmental inappropriateness of full-day academic kindergarten where five-year-old kids are expected to be sitting, reading, writing, filling out worksheets and doing math workbooks for a number of hours during the day, being tested by the district, state, and nation several times during the year, etc. This is a very different creature.

 

Exactly.

[Ellie]

Thank you, Dick Tracy. ;)

 

What does Ellie have to say.

:iagree: with Dick Tracy. :)

[Orthodox6]

Because parents need somewhere to stash their dc while they all go to work. Because the state gets $$ for children who are enrolled, so they encourage it and make us all think our dc will be functionally illiterate or socially unacceptable if they don't start school that young.

 

Cynical analysis ? Yes.

 

True ? I believe so.

[MissKNG]

Does anyone else have this? Our school district has "Early Developmental Kindergarten". If a child reaches K age of 5 by the cut off (Dec 1st) but isn't quite ready for K (may it be maturity or whatever), they attend EDK first. I didn't ask what happens after EDK or if EDK is all year long though.

[Ester Maria]

I barely consider kindergarten to be "school", honestly. What they do in American and in Italian kindergartens, content-wise, is largely similar, with the difference that K is not mandatory in Italy and isn't put in a school building, so people have this mental image of K belonging to the "daycare" sphere and 1st belonging to the "school" sphere. In reality, in both countries kids are approximately the same developmentally, they just don't call it "school", and some don't attend, so in 1st they study lots of "K things" at a faster pace for the sake of kids who didn't have the daycare experience, which might make it seem as if in Italy they start school a year later, but in reality, not at all.

 

You have to be careful not to confuse things with labels on those things. So in a country A kindergarten is placed in a school building and is a part of "school", but in reality the kids don't differ at all from the kids from the country B who do the same, but in a daycare setting, or through some other medium, so people don't consider it "school".

 

In Italy "school" is started at 6 or 7 years of age, graduated often at 19 as opposed to the American 18 due to the later start, but kids aren't slow with academics at all with regards to what's studied in America; on the contrary, Italian "1st grade" is often a lot developmentally quicker than the American one (e.g. both print and cursive were taught in 1st, while in the US they delay cursive for 3rd), even if it seems that they start from the scratch, they DO count on kids having some background.

 

It's just the matter of moving K from daycare to school and making it more "formal", it's not that the US kids are being forced to do anything unheard of in the rest of the world. In Italian daycare-K they also have worksheets and stuff, it's just less formal, with more running around.

 

I personally don't even know when I made a transition to "school", but it was somewhere around K. It was just so hard to do something different than what we were already doing to call it "school". I was actually lucky to have very calm, bright girls so they had no issues with extended periods of concentration on something even in K and nowadays they have amazing concentration spans for the kids of their age, so school at 5 was easy for us, and I took a full year of gradual shifting to "full school" system, which again corresponds to the age of 6.

 

Personally I'm not for delaying academics, even though I can see benefits of that too. Of course, I wouldn't sit a 4 y.o. down to "do school" for a "school day", but a 6 y.o., yes. Some children - especially boys - might be too immature at 6 and need it delayed until 7, but unless that's the case, I don't really see a reason for delaying school.

[susankenny]

Ester Maria,

 

Where I live, K is definitely considered school and is quite academic (sadly). Children have skills they need to have mastered prior to entering kindergarten. Upon leaving, they are expected to be able to read & write at a certain level. By the end of grade 1, children are reading simple chapter books. I'm almost 40, and the dynamics of school have changed drastically over the years (at least in my area). I don't like it at all personally.

 

This is my experience anyway.

Susan

[Spy Car]

What's wrong with knowing how to read when you finish kindergarten? Or being able to do sums? Or count money? Or write?

 

My son is in kindergarten. And I spend time in the class-room. And the kids are having a marvelous time. They are not being stressed out. They are being engaged in a joyful manner. The experiences and activities are rich and varied. And the children are learning and flourishing.

 

I don't see what's wrong with that.

 

Bill

[Mommyfaithe]

Hi All,

 

I have a 5 year old and visit this board. Currently, I have a Japanese woman staying with me and she is *shocked* that I do school (30 minutes a day - 20 minutes Right Start A, 10 minutes phonics) with my son. In Japan, where the students are no slouches, school starts at 7. Finland starts at 7, too. What's up with this 5 years old stuff?

 

Any opinions?

 

Emily

 

Parents have to go to work...daycare is expensive...school aT 5 SEEMS REASONABLE. We couldn't possibly be trying to get a head start on the world...not at this rate...sigh....

 

Faithe

[Ester Maria]

Children have skills they need to have mastered prior to entering kindergarten. Upon leaving, they are expected to be able to read & write at a certain level. By the end of grade 1, children are reading simple chapter books.

But that was my point - it's exactly the same as in Italy, it's just not called "school" in Italy, but they do the same things.

 

Most of the kids enter 1st grade being able to read and write to a certain extent (not to mention a rather big number of those who come actually knowing how to read and write), and those are the activities that are regularly a part of kindergarten "curricula" (in lack of better expression, since it's not as formal). By the end of 1st grade, children read well, or they are sent to repeat the 1st grade (not sure if that's still the practice, though, since it's been a while I've heard it happening, but when I went to school, it was like that).

 

There is, however, one thing we must take into account - it's significantly easier to read and write Italian than to read and write English as a first language. While most of the (at least public schooled) anglophone children are basically functionally illiterate prior to middle or even high school, due to the nature of the written language and the often inability to spell previously unknown words, in Italy that's not really the case - even though there are some "tricky" things as well, basically once you learn to read and write, you know how to read and write pretty much anything, and there is no need for years of practice of read-alouds after the child has learned to read, and similar methods to help to "attach" the written word to the sound and concept.

 

That being said, reading chapter books in Italian at 6-7, and doing the same in English, given the equal amount of time to master that, might not be "fair" to compare.

It's not my area of expertise teaching reading and writing English as a first language, but for Italian, I can surely tell you that reading chapter books at the end of first grade is a very reasonable goal for any academically average child with no serious learning disabilities. My daughters could do the same in English at that age, and their "English development" always followed their "Italian development", so I suppose the difference shouldn't be that huge, they just had the privilege of having the rather phonetic first language.

 

I might be wrong, but I always thought that the nature of the written English language had something to do with the fact it's preferred to start formal school earlier in the anglophone countries - it takes more time for children to learn to read, and they should be pretty independent readers in 2nd-3rd grade because of the content areas, so maybe that's why an early start is traditionally preferred?

In Italy there just isn't that stress, even if the child comes to the 1st grade not knowing letters (and that doesn't really happen, especially with the kids enrolled in some form of daycare before school), they can still learn to read confidently within a single academic year.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Ester Maria