Why do we start at 5?

[Spy Car]

Thanks for posting this.

 

I'm not terribly dogmatic either way, and I wouldn't accuse those who start early as ruining their children (assuming play is still a priority). However, I've seen enough unschooling families whose children are doing high school level math at about the same time as their age peers despite a "late start," that I also wouldn't accuse those in the better-late-than-early school of ruining their children either. :D

 

Remind us again how old your youngest (Miquon/MEP using) daughter is? ;) :D

 

Bill

[Imprimis]

I would also bet that those 'slow' Finnish kids (who outscore American kids) are learning tons of stuff before age 7, but it might not look like a heap of dull work worthy of head -banging.

 

Absolutely. I spent last weekend with my Finnish cousin, his wife, and their almost 8 yo son, who is just finishing up his first year of school in Finland.

 

Even though their son speaks very little English (although this will change--- most Finns end up learning at least 3 languages by the time they are finished with school), his intelligence, inquisitiveness, and love of learning was quite apparent.

 

My cousin and I have discussed the success of the Finnish education system, and much of what he told me is underscored in this article (and the one linked inside of it). http://educationalissues.suite101.com/article.cfm/what-is-the-key-to-finlands-educational-success

 

There is not the overwhelming sense of competition and "hurry up and learn everything" sentiment like there is here in some circles.

[nmoira]

Remind us again how old your youngest (Miquon/MEP using) daughter is? ;) :D

She's five, though we're obviously not unschoolers -- I never felt that I was cool enough to unschool. She loves the puzzle approach of MEP, but our major focus is working through a phonics book, primarily to help with her articulation issues. What she is driven to do is write, so she can add words to the comics and graphic novels she relentlessly draws (she hates having to rely on me), so I've tied the phonics to her writing: we do it as copywork, reading as she writes instead of reading from the book... I've typed half the darned phonics book out in the GDI font for her to be able to do this, but it's been worth it. She's worked up to "rum" and "grog" and "guts" if that gives you an idea where her interests lie ("blood" is I'm sure in the offing). :tongue_smilie:

 

Edited to add: Omigosh.. she'll be six in two months. And she has two loose teeth. I can't believe my baby has loose teeth.

Edited May 5, 2010 by nmoira

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

Absolutely. I spent last weekend with my Finnish cousin, his wife, and their almost 8 yo son, who is just finishing up his first year of school in Finland.

 

Even though their son speaks very little English (although this will change--- most Finns end up learning at least 3 languages by the time they are finished with school), his intelligence, inquisitiveness, and love of learning was quite apparent.

 

My cousin and I have discussed the success of the Finnish education system, and much of what he told me is underscored in this article (and the one linked inside of it). http://educationalissues.suite101.com/article.cfm/what-is-the-key-to-finlands-educational-success

 

There is not the overwhelming sense of competition and "hurry up and learn everything" sentiment like there is here in some circles.

 

Thanks for the article. I've watched some great youtubes about the Finnish school system as well.

[Spy Car]

She's five...

 

Yea, that's what I thought :lol:

 

She loves the puzzle approach of MEP...

 

Mmm hmm. Of course she does :D

 

Edited to add: Omigosh.. she'll be six in two months. And she has two loose teeth. I can't believe my baby has loose teeth.

 

Mine is only a month younger than yours, and he doesn't have any loose teeth yet. We must be failing him :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill :001_wub:

[nmoira]

Yea, that's what I thought :lol:

Ah, but I started with her this January (if you don't count some work with Singapore EB from last year, which she totally commandeered for her own evil designs), when did you start? :tongue_smilie:

 

BTW, she's not really a supervillain, she just needs something to do with her rather considerable down time. ;)

[Spy Car]

Ah, but I started with her this January (if you don't count some work with Singapore EB from last year, which she totally commandeered for her own evil designs), when did you start? :tongue_smilie:

 

OK, let's not count the work in Singapore math that she did when she was 4 :lol:

 

What a cutie BTW

 

What was the title of this thread again??? :tongue_smilie:

 

You are so busted!!!

 

Bill

[StartingOver]

OK, let's not count the work in Singapore math that she did when she was 4 :lol:

 

What a cutie BTW

 

What was the title of this thread again??? :tongue_smilie:

 

You are so busted!!!

 

Bill

 

:lol:

[nmoira]

OK, let's not count the work in Singapore math that she did when she was 4 :lol:

Five (I'm pretty sure)... she was five for half of last year. :)

 

What a cutie BTW

Ahem, evil... purest concentrated evil, and don't let her hear anything else (at least this month).

 

What was the title of this thread again??? :tongue_smilie:

 

You are so busted!!!

Yes, but busted for what? I just said that there's not only no harm in waiting, but that extended free periods of unfettered free play are of far more value than schooling for young children, and that only the former is *necessary.* It's not the idea of children starting at five (or earlier) that brought me into the thread, but rather your intimation that doing "nothing" was counter productive and (earlier in the thread) talking about missing windows.

 

I have started some work with DD the Younger at five (if she were going to ps, she was old enough for kindergarten last fall, though I would have redshirted her for non-academic reasons including play), but I didn't do a stitch of "pre-school" work with her before that. But to speak to the point of the thread, I wouldn't have felt at all uncomfortable waiting longer if I didn't think she was ready, and given her age, willing.

 

Your son's school sounds wonderful. Do you mind my asking if it's your neighborhood school?

[Spy Car]

Five (I'm pretty sure)... she was five for half of last year. :)

 

What's a few month between friends? :D

 

 

Yes, but busted for what?

 

Do we really need to go through the check-list again? :tongue_smilie:

 

I just said that there's not only no harm in waiting, but that extended free periods of unfettered free play are of far more value than schooling for young children, and that only the former is *necessary.* It's not the idea of children starting at five (or earlier) that brought me into the thread, but rather your intimation that doing "nothing" was counter productive and (earlier in the thread) talking about missing windows.

 

There are many ways for a child's mind to be stimulated and for their experience to be rich ones. Nothing to me is more valuable than those hors they spend creatively playing, being out-side in the sun-kissed air, running, climbing trees, observing polly-wogs, inventing scenarios in their own minds (that are completely mysterious to us).

 

I think our feeling on these things is virtually identical.

 

By *nothing* I mean doing *nothing*.

 

Setting up finger-painting (or whatever) is "contrived" by some measure. So what? I'm sure we both strive to give our children time that is truly "free-play" (and highly regard that time) but their is much adults can do to create enriching opportunities that capitalize on a child's curiosity and love of play, while at the same time (purposefully) incorporating things that will help build skills they will need down the line, and provide just a little fun challenge to their cognitive skills so their little brains stretch and grow in the same ways they do during the best hours of creative free-play.

 

That's all I'm saying.

 

I have started some work with DD the Younger at five (if she were going to ps, she was old enough for kindergarten last fall, though I would have redshirted her for non-academic reasons including play), but I didn't do a stitch of "pre-school" work with her before that. But to speak to the point of the thread, I wouldn't have felt at all uncomfortable waiting longer if I didn't think she was ready, and given her age, willing.

 

We had to consider the "red-shirt" idea when my son was a toddler (being a summer-baby and a boy) and would have done so had we felt it was appropriate for him. As I said, many of the boys in my son's class were 6 and there is no shame in that.

 

But you can see a greater struggle in children whose parents have been largely absent in their lives, and those who've worked with their children before-hand. And age matters very little in this regard.

 

Your son's school sounds wonderful. Do you mind my asking if it's your neighborhood school?

 

We are really blessed. The school is close-by, but it is not our "home-school" (in the public school use of the term) which is a five minute walk (instead of a 12 minute drive).

 

Our home school is a very good school, and we were happily prepared to go there, but the one he attends instead is one of a very few in our massive school system that is truly exceptional. So when we were invited to attend we said: YES!!!

 

No regrets there.

 

Bill

[LG Gone Wild]

"I owe, I owe, so off to work I go"

 

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

 

:cheers2:

[nmoira]

What's a few month between friends? :D

It depends: DH is about a year and half younger than I, a fact he clings to with greater, almost frightening, intensity with each passing year. :lol:

 

I think our feeling on these things is virtually identical.

I suspect we're arguing a similar point from different sides of the glass.

 

We had to consider the "red-shirt" idea when my son was a toddler (being a summer-baby and a boy) and would have done so had we felt it was appropriate for him. As I said, many of the boys in my son's class were 6 and there is no shame in that.

When I was in K, it was almost entirely play based, with a few integrated art, gross-motor, and pre-literacy activities (alphabet, reading, memorizing nursery rhymes and songs, etc.). Kids that weren't ready to move on stayed for a second year of K. But it was fun (in spite of my enmity towards the teacher), and in retrospect, sensible. I don't see that fun in K today, at least not in our school system.

 

But you can see a greater struggle in children whose parents have been largely absent in their lives, and those who've worked with their children before-hand. And age matters very little in this regard.

On this, I absolutely agree, and it's a whole other question. I don't know about other areas, but our local Head Start is fantastic with caring and motivated staff (we cross paths often at the library and the park). I realize this is only one potential solution, but it's unfortunate they haven't the funds to cover all eligible children.

[Spy Car]

It depends: DH is about a year and half younger than I, a fact he clings to with greater, almost frightening, intensity with each passing year. :lol:

 

Wow a Cougar, who knew? :lol:

 

I suspect we're arguing a similar point from different sides of the glass.

 

Do you think? :D

 

When I was in K, it was almost entirely play based, with a few integrated art, gross-motor, and pre-literacy activities (alphabet, reading, memorizing nursery rhymes and songs, etc.). Kids that weren't ready to move on stayed for a second year of K. But it was fun (in spite of my enmity towards the teacher), and in retrospect, sensible. I don't see that fun in K today, at least not in our school system.

 

My kindergarten experience was much like yours. Mostly play and pre-literacy activities. Was that better? I don't know.

 

I know were are fortunate, and that not every kindergarten experience matches what our son is getting, but it is a fun class-room to be in. The very experienced (an still enthusiastic) teacher makes learning activity based. They sing songs, learn poems, read stories, do many (many, many) activities to build fine motor skills.

 

They split into small groups (5 or 6 kids) where they play math games, have phonic activities, art projects, free-play time, interesting "unit studies" and lot's of fun!

 

The amount of creative interesting activities that are brought into the class-room each and every day really astounds me. I may think more highly of our "home" math program, and be glad we've done our own phonics, but am I ever impressed with he wealth of energy and creativity brought into that class-room. Every time I work in the class I feel so grateful this is the school experience my son is having.

 

And the children (even the ones with what might be called "special needs") are thriving, happy and learning.

 

There is barely any "workbook" time. Mostly the children are learning through doing things. I think you would approve.

 

So is that a better situation than the one we had? Arguable, I suppose, but I think so. And if my son reads better than I did at 5 than I did at 7, or has a better grasp of the the basic of math and more enthusiasm for the subject than I ever did, and is still a happy kid who loves to play and loves learning, is that so bad?

 

I'm having a hard time thinking it is.

 

I have no doubts a well-intended parent or school could use inappropriate means and squash a child's natural creative impulse. That would be a shame. But as i've said repeatedly I think there is a 3rd way.

 

On this, I absolutely agree, and it's a whole other question. I don't know about other areas, but our local Head Start is fantastic with caring and motivated staff (we cross paths often at the library and the park). I realize this is only one potential solution, but it's unfortunate they haven't the funds to cover all eligible children.

 

My mother (who was a public school teacher) taught Head Start one summer when I was that age, and I tagged along. I remember it being a lot of fun.

 

Learning can be fun. Should be fun.

 

Bill

[Terabith]

What kind of school does your son go to? It sounds so fabulous!

[TracyP]

 

Learning can be fun. Should be fun.

 

Bill

 

:iagree: For full disclosure purposes: I am doing "school" with my 4 yo - at his insistence.

 

But Bill you must realize that your situation is the exception. My public school district is going to go to a 4 day school week next year. School hours will be 8-4:30. Three second grade teachers are being cut down to two. It seems we expect too much out of our 6 yo's and not enough out of our 16 yo's. (Sorry, off topic rant.)

 

The point is I do not think most kids are being well served by attending a brick and mortar school at age 5. Most schools just do not have the time, resources, priorities, etc. to make learning fun.

[Snowfall]

And if my son reads better than I did at 5 than I did at 7, or has a better grasp of the the basic of math and more enthusiasm for the subject than I ever did, and is still a happy kid who loves to play and loves learning, is that so bad?

 

I think your son's school sounds great and I'm new, so I obviously can't say I'm overly familiar with your opinion, but it sounds like in general I agree with you. However, I'm wondering how you can be so certain that your son's reading ability is better because of his school situation vs. your school situation. I started private school K at age 4 (gasp! lol). I tested in, so they let me go. It was a very strict, authoritarian Christian school and I don't remember what we used for everything, but I definitely know we used ABeka for phonics instruction and I was reading before the end of K. I remember the little readers fondly. :001_smile:

 

Fast forward to now and my own DD, who will be 6 in 8 days and is not yet reading fluently, despite my best, most gentle efforts. (If you read my other post you can see that I have tried to teach her.) She's just not ready. I was ready two years before she was and I'm pretty sure when I was 5 I was a better reader than she'll be at age 7, but I don't think it was because my authoritarian, take the fun out of everything, get spanked with a paddle for not trying hard enough, private school was a better learning environment than the one DD has at home.

 

It was just something I was thinking about.

[FlutterbyMommy]

It depends on whether you mean starting school (i.e. public/private) or homeschooling. We stared early because my daughter was interested. there is nothing forced or demanded. I provide learning options because she seeks these types of things.

 

Also, she is an only child and high needs. She demands a lot of one-on-one time from me. So it is only natural to provide learning exeriences through our time together.

 

If she begins to seem frustrated or taxed by what we are doing, I just ease off. I am not looking to burn my child out on academics by 7 or 8. Right now, it is mostly about learning through play and experiences.

 

I think what I provide as a homeschooler is a far different experience than what a child is experiencing at an academic institution. She is with me anyway, so why not explore her interests?

[Spy Car]

I think your son's school sounds great and I'm new, so I obviously can't say I'm overly familiar with your opinion, but it sounds like in general I agree with you. However, I'm wondering how you can be so certain that your son's reading ability is better because of his school situation vs. your school situation.

 

It's not. His reading is more advanced because my wife and I read him thousands of books, modeled reading ourselves, and I slowly worked with him on the precursor skill for phonics and then began an on-going phonics and reading program that's little or no different that what I imagine the average homeschooler on this forum is doing.

 

We used Explode the Code and Bob books and other early readers. Nothing magic. We just did a little every day.

 

He learned to read at home. That said, the teacher at his kindergarten has really brought along all the children over the course of the year. But it is nothing any of us could do one-on-one at home.

 

I also came from a family of readers (and my Mom was a teacher) but I went into kindergarten pretty "cold." And reading in First Grade (with the methods used then) came with more "anxiety" than need be. there was no advantage to it that I see.

 

Now it is true that I developed into a "voracious" reader as a child, but I think that was my nature and represented an "over-coming" of lousy teaching methods rather than some validation of "delay."

 

Fast forward to now and my own DD, who will be 6 in 8 days and is not yet reading fluently, despite my best, most gentle efforts. (If you read my other post you can see that I have tried to teach her.) She's just not ready. I was ready two years before she was and I'm pretty sure when I was 5 I was a better reader than she'll be at age 7, but I don't think it was because my authoritarian, take the fun out of everything, get spanked with a paddle for not trying hard enough, private school was a better learning environment than the one DD has at home.

 

It was just something I was thinking about.

 

No I agree. Children are different. That's the beauty of being able to homeschool. You take the time you need. I'm all for meeting the individualized needs of children.

 

I do think with may disciplines there are logical and fun ways to slowly build the enthusiasm for the subject. If I had a child who needed the time I'd have no problem reading book after book to them. And try to make them feel secure and loved, and do my best to help them. as I'm sure you are doing.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

:iagree: For full disclosure purposes: I am doing "school" with my 4 yo - at his insistence.

 

But Bill you must realize that your situation is the exception. My public school district is going to go to a 4 day school week next year. School hours will be 8-4:30. Three second grade teachers are being cut down to two. It seems we expect too much out of our 6 yo's and not enough out of our 16 yo's. (Sorry, off topic rant.)

 

The point is I do not think most kids are being well served by attending a brick and mortar school at age 5. Most schools just do not have the time, resources, priorities, etc. to make learning fun.

 

I do understand the reality of public school education generally, and how fortunate we are. I really do. Still we "home educate."

 

You simply can't replace parent involvement, no matter how enriching the school environment may be.

 

I'm just saying you do see a difference between children who have that parental (and yes, even school) enrichment in ways that are appropriate to the age (including playful means of learning) and those who don't have those opportunities.

 

And it is good to watch polly-wogs in the brook. But Sponge-Bob Square-Pants? Maybe not.

 

Bill

[stripe]

But Sponge-Bob Square-Pants? Maybe not.

Aww, but Sponge Bob is kind of cute. My kids think he's a hunk of Swiss cheese.