S/O from dumped newspapers thread - entitlement vs self esteem

[Kate in Arabia]

I see far too many young people with zero work ethic, but a big fat sense of entitlement.

This quote from Audrey's post reminded me of an NPR program I was listening to the other day, they were talking about the sense of entitlement of today's young adults. They were tracking it back to being continually praised in school/by their parents, even when they perform at a mediocre level. They tied it in to the idea that we tell every child he/she is exceptional. What it was leading to, in their opinion, was this sense of entitlement. They quoted a university president who was giving a commencement speech; he said that out of the entire senior class, some huge number (I think it was more than half) had refused job opportunities, deeming them as below their expectations, so they would just move back home and wait for something better (which, because of their sense of entitlement, they were sure would be forthcoming).

 

I found it interesting this battle between wanting to build a child's self esteem, but not cross the line into creating a false expectation. The concern in the radio program was that in particular those college graduates who passed on a lower-level job would then have a gap in their employment record, which statistically was shown to lower future job opportunities.

 

I will also say that I don't think this is a US-only phenomenon, I see it here a lot as well.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Kate in Arabia
typo

[Ibbygirl]

This quote from Audrey's post reminded me of an NPR program I was listening to the other day, they were talking about the sense of entitlement of today's young adults. They were tracking it back to being continually praised in school/by their parents, even when they perform at a mediocre level. They tied it in to the idea that we tell every child he/she is exceptional. What it was leading to, in their opinion, was this sense of entitlement. They quoted a university president who was giving a commencement speech; he said that out of the entire senior class, some huge number (I think it was more than half) had refused job opportunities, deeming them as below their expectations, so they would just move back home and wait for something better (which, because of their sense of entitlement, they were sure would be forthcoming).

 

I found it interesting this battle between wanting to build a child's self esteem, but not cross the line into creating a false expectation. The concern in the radio program was that in particular those college graduates who passed on a lower-level job would then have a gap in their employment record, which statistically was shown to lower future job opportunities.

 

I will also say that I don't think this is a US-only phenomenon, I see it here a lot as well.

This is an interesting question. It's interesting that the NPR program linked the sense of entitlement to praise. I've always thought it had more to do with wealth and freely lavishing gifts rather than having a child work for something that lead to that sense of entitlement. Interesting thread. I'll be curious to hear other people's replies

[Laura Corin]

 

I will also say that I don't think this is a US-only phenomenon, I see it here a lot as well.

 

There was an excellent BBC documentary, made by a journalist whom I respect, about whether immigrants (in our case from other EU countries in eastern/southern Europe) are actually taking jobs that British workers would do. British unemployed people (in several cases long-term unemployed) were offered a trial of jobs previously done by immigrants - in all cases they went through an interview process to ensure that they were capable of the jobs. About half of the British people failed to last the two days - about a third didn't even turn up on the first day, citing illness or 'being too tired'. Those who dropped out talked about not taking just any job, or not liking to be treated that way - the treatment was fair, as far as we saw, but they were expected to work hard.

 

Laura

[Kate in Arabia]

 

I've always thought it had more to do with wealth and freely lavishing gifts.

Me too. But I've also heard about comments from my mom (a highschool administrator), for example, about how many parents consider their children "gifted", or should be in the advanced program, even if various assessments say otherwise. If they don't do well, it's not because of the child, it's the program/teacher/school. I guess for some this leads the child to believe he deserves more because he's always been told he's better, kwim? Maybe some tell their kids they can have/be whatever they want, but leave out the fact that they may have to work hard and sacrifice for it, and maybe even then they won't get it.

[Ibbygirl]

Me too. But I've also heard about comments from my mom (a highschool administrator), for example, about how many parents consider their children "gifted", or should be in the advanced program, even if various assessments say otherwise. If they don't do well, it's not because of the child, it's the program/teacher/school. I guess for some this leads the child to believe he deserves more because he's always been told he's better, kwim? Maybe some tell their kids they can have/be whatever they want, but leave out the fact that they may have to work hard and sacrifice for it, and maybe even then they won't get it.

 

I can see that, but I find it hard to believe that just verbal praise alone could lead to a sense of entitlement. I don't know, it just seems to me like there would have to be more factors than just praise. Like parents not teaching a child to work for things, or taking over tasks for them (i.e. science fair projects etc) and "bailing out" the kid so that they don't learn responsibility. I don't know. It's an interesting question. I think of my own dd who has Asperger's Syndrome. She is extremely bright academically and extremely lacking with common sense and social skills. I praise her often because she somewhat suffers from self esteem issues because of the way other kids her age react to her and treat her, but she also has a strong work ethic. She takes care of a neighbor's birds whenever she goes out of town and she does the job well and works hard for the money that she is earning, but I spent the time with her teaching her how to do it well and the value of doing a job well that you can be proud of.

 

And then on the other hand I know a 12 yo girl who has a normal self esteem. She doesn't seem to think of herself more highly than her peers. Seems pretty well adjusted socially. She is doing a fund raiser for an upcoming event in April and she gave me a flyer that was done up obviously by someone with computer skills. It was very nice and they even had an electronic account set up where a person could donate the money etc. I asked the girl later on what else she was doing to raise the funds. Was she washing cars, or raking lawns or any kind of work. She just said very naturally, "No. Just the flyer." I found it surprising that she had absolutely no plan for any work to raise the funds. I suspect also that probably one of her parents made up the flyer and I wonder to what extent she helped out in that effort as well. I don't know her parents well so I don't know how often they praise or don't praise her, but the fact that she expects the money to just come in because she is asking for it struck me as a sense of entitlement. But does she feel the entitlement because her parents praised her too much or built her up with unrealistic expectations or because they don't require her to actually do anything?? I don't know? It just seems to me that there would be more factors involved.

 

Did the NPR program mention any other factors or just praise as leading to the sense of entitlement?? It's an interesting question. :)

Edited March 2, 2010 by Ibbygirl

[Kate in Arabia]

Did the NPR program mention any other factors or just praise as leading to the sense of entitlement?? It's an interesting question

. I was able to find the exact program. The topic was the repercussions of the recession, you can read the whole transcript or listen here. But the whole thing isn't on education/parenting, so I'll put the relevant clip here. (I see that I misquoted them a bit on my OP, so please excuse that, sorry.)

 

CONAN: And indeed that there - because of the way this echo-boom generation or millennials or whatever you want to call them, was raised, you say, because these are the children whose self-esteem was built up very carefully by parents and schools, that indeed self-esteem unconnected to actual achievement creates a problem.

 

Mr. PECK: Yeah, this is a generation that's really been told throughout childhood that they're special, that they're destined for great things. As you say, self-esteem, often divorced from performance, has been emphasized in school curricula and in parenting.

 

And, you know, on one level, just psychologically, that makes this a very, very difficult time for this generation. I believe, in a national survey in 1999, about 80 percent of teens describe themselves as very intelligent. About 40 percent expected to be making $75,000 or more by the time they were 30. So this is a generation with very high expectations. It's a generation...

 

CONAN: To coin a phrase, where all the children are above average.

 

Mr. PECK: Exactly. All the children are above average, and they all expect to do very well materially and also to have work tailored to their interests and their lifestyles.

 

So it's a very difficult adjustment for...

 

CONAN: Turning down jobs that they don't consider good enough and then finding difficulty getting jobs they're interested in.

 

Mr. PECK: Yeah, the president of the University of Connecticut, at least year's commencement, found the phenomenon of students there turning jobs without alternatives because they didn't think the jobs were good enough so pervasive that he actually addressed it in the commencement speech.

 

And I talked to someone at career services at UConn who said that about a third of the seniors that he's dealt with, they're not even engaging with the job market. They're just planning on moving home and trying to wait the recession out.

 

Everything we know about the importance of the first couple of years in the job market would indicate that that's a big mistake.

[asta]

Me too. But I've also heard about comments from my mom (a highschool administrator), for example, about how many parents consider their children "gifted", or should be in the advanced program, even if various assessments say otherwise. If they don't do well, it's not because of the child, it's the program/teacher/school. I guess for some this leads the child to believe he deserves more because he's always been told he's better, kwim? Maybe some tell their kids they can have/be whatever they want, but leave out the fact that they may have to work hard and sacrifice for it, and maybe even then they won't get it.

 

I just read this article and found it to be very disturbing: Receiving ‘gifted’ label easier than ever in D.C. area.

 

In Montgomery County, nearly 40 percent of third-graders earned the “gifted and talented†designation after a round of tests and recommendations last spring. That is, nearly 4,000 Montgomery 9-year-olds have “the potential for extraordinary accomplishments,†according to most definitions.

 

At Bethesda’s Bannockburn Elementary, the numbers rise to 72 percent, relegating only 19 youngsters to a life of more average expectations out of a class of nearly 70.

 

In Fairfax County, students in its advanced academic centers — a refuge for the highly gifted — have nearly doubled in the past decade to 8,400 — 14 percent of all students in third through eighth grades. Another 26 percent of students receive gifted instruction at their home schools.

 

I'm sorry, there simply aren't that many Einsteins running around. I agree with the article that it IS a product of a narcissistic (my word) generation that is entirely too focused on their children.

 

My son currently has a paper route that makes him an unbelievable amount of money, as he only has to do it twice a month. The route was initially split with another kid, but that kid only did it one time, and then dumped the papers the next 2 times. I guess he thought no one would notice. This route pays almost $12 an hour! Why would a kid give that up? Especially in an area where there are no jobs for kids? Entitlement. The other kid is allowed to spend all of his "free" time (eg: any time not at PS) skateboarding with his pals. My son has been able to save money to buy himself some very high quality camping gear he wanted that will take him well into adulthood - stuff we said we would NOT fund. He decided to find a way to get it.

 

I really think that there are parents out there who honestly don't bother trying to instill a sense of "non-entitlement". It isn't even a "I want you to have it better than I had it" kind of thing, IMO. Of course the folks from the great depression wanted their kids to have a better life - that is just common sense.

 

What we are seeing now, IMO, is just an extension of what got the US in the economic mess it is in: more, more, more, gimme more on a macro scale. Everyone (I'm speaking in the aggregate, not necessarily about anyone here specifically) thought the "good times" would never end. That their homes would always increase in value, that the stock market would forever go up. That every kid could go to college. That each successive generation could/would/should make more money, make "more of themselves" than the previous one.

 

Sound familiar? It should. It is what happened in the 1920s, pretty much world wide. And then we had a massive socio-economic depression. People behave as if "things are different now" because: women are in the workforce, the world is more interconnected, we're not so agrarian, blah blah blah.

 

B. S.

 

Women and children were in the workforce at the turn of the century. In huge numbers. The "known" world was hugely interconnected. We had a whole bunch of small farms vs a few massive farming conglomerates (now). The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

I'll get off my soap box before I go completely off my economic history rocker.

 

 

a

[Jane in NC]

How interesting that you mention this! The guest on the NPR program was Don Peck who has an article in the March issue of Atlantic magazine. (Article here.) After hearing that program last week I had forwarded the article to a friend of mine who works with people overcoming substance abuse problems.

 

The passage in the article that initially struck me resonates with the OP's initial comments:

 

Many of today’s young adults seem temperamentally unprepared for the circumstances in which they now find themselves. Jean Twenge, an associate professor of psychology at San Diego State University, has carefully compared the attitudes of today’s young adults to those of previous generations when they were the same age. Using national survey data, she’s found that to an unprecedented degree, people who graduated from high school in the 2000s dislike the idea of work for work’s sake, and expect jobs and career to be tailored to their interests and lifestyle. Yet they also have much higher material expectations than previous generations, and believe financial success is extremely important. “There’s this idea that, ‘Yeah, I don’t want to work, but I’m still going to get all the stuff I want,’†Twenge told me. “It’s a generation in which every kid has been told, ‘You can be anything you want. You’re special.’â€

 

The article takes on much more than this though--as did the radio program. Probably time for another spin-off thread:

 

Forty years ago, Glen Elder, a sociologist at the University of North Carolina and a pioneer in the field of “life course†studies, found a pronounced diffidence in elderly men (though not women) who had suffered hardship as 20- and 30-somethings during the Depression. Decades later, unlike peers who had been largely spared in the 1930s, these men came across, he told me, as “beaten and withdrawn—lacking ambition, direction, confidence in themselves.†Today in Japan, according to the Japan Productivity Center for Socio-Economic Development, workers who began their careers during the “lost decade†of the 1990s and are now in their 30s make up six out of every 10 cases of depression, stress, and work-related mental disabilities reported by employers.

 

The Atlantic article is interesting and I was glad that the NPR program brought it (and the link) to my attention.

 

Jane

[asta]

See, this is my basic problem: IRL, I'm surrounded by vapid, uninteresting women. Here, I'm not. But if I don't get my arse off of the computer, I'm going to turn into something resembling a troll... :lol::lol::lol:

 

 

a

[Peela]

I wouldn't call what schools do, building self esteem. Real self esteem isnt thinking you are ok because you are good at various things, growing up showered with praise at your every correct answer or beautiful piece of child's artwork. It's just feeling ok in your own skin, not hating yourself for any reason, being able to feel remorse but not wallowing in guilt, just treating yourself with common respect and love. Many people in the west do not feel these things (I think its different in some countries)- they truly feel bad about themselves most of the time and feel they are less than others. Hence the swing to try and build self exteem in kids. To me self esteem is being able to have a go at something, because I am not terrified of failing. Its caring about myself as much as I care about others. It's just being OK with myself. It's not dependent on what I do, ever. Praise, at least excessive praise, doesnt build self esteem- it makes a child dependent on others for feeling good about themselves.

So, it doesn't surprise me that the whole thing backfires. A sense of entitlement comes from being spoiled, not having healthy self esteem.

I see the same thing in my own kids now that they are teens, by the way. They both have good paying part time jobs, now- better than average wages for their age. At first I wasnt so happy my dd15 in particular was getting paid so well. But there IS a place for not accepting crappy jobs for crappy pay. How low should we go just to make some money?

I think things are continually balancing and very rarely actually come into perfect balance for long. People mean well, trying to give kids self esteem. It's just often misguided. But then, I am not so keen on a traditional work ethic, either. I say work smarter, not more.

[Spy Car]

 

CONAN: To coin a phrase, where all the children are above average.

 

 

When a heard this on the air, I thought most NPR listeners (being above average) would know Garrison Keeler had already "coined" that phrase in his description of the children of Lake Wobegone

 

Play on!

 

Bill (who was impressed a child even had a paper route in the 21st Century)

[OHGrandma]

I remember hearing a prison chaplain speak similar words at our church some 25 years ago. He said the majority of prisoners he worked with did not have low self-esteem, they had a highly inflated sense of self-esteem with a huge sense of entitlement.

 

That sense of entitlement seems to be responsible for a lot of societal ills; stealing, 'white collar' crime, extra-marital affairs, much of it has its roots in the thought that "I deserve more than I have".

Edited March 2, 2010 by OHGrandma
typo

[Kate in Arabia]

I think part of the discussion was to say that parents/educators can sometimes set up kids to expect something, and then they are unable to let go of that ideal. For example I have a cousin who has completed her degree (a Masters), but has been unable to get the kind of job she wants using that degree. But instead of taking a job in a different field, or even taking a lower-level job (or, heaven forbid, a volunteer position) where she could advance over time or network to something more to her taste, she's sitting at home (her parents' home) waiting for the "right" opportunity to knock. What if it never comes (it's been over a year already)? There's something to be said for not selling yourself short, but at the same time one should be realistic.

 

And I think the larger idea from the piece was that kids who get into this problem, where they have a large gap of time while they wait expectantly for something bigger and better, have a hard time ultimately making up for lost time later.

[LibraryLover]

Weren't the paper route kids 11 or something, not young adults? I think there is a big difference between impulsivity in young children (which one addresses) , and a 20 yr wanting to have everything his parents worked decades to have.

[asta]

I think part of the discussion was to say that parents/educators can sometimes set up kids to expect something, and then they are unable to let go of that ideal. For example I have a cousin who has completed her degree (a Masters), but has been unable to get the kind of job she wants using that degree. But instead of taking a job in a different field, or even taking a lower-level job (or, heaven forbid, a volunteer position) where she could advance over time or network to something more to her taste, she's sitting at home (her parents' home) waiting for the "right" opportunity to knock. What if it never comes (it's been over a year already)? There's something to be said for not selling yourself short, but at the same time one should be realistic.

 

And I think the larger idea from the piece was that kids who get into this problem, where they have a large gap of time while they wait expectantly for something bigger and better, have a hard time ultimately making up for lost time later.

 

On the flip side of this is the matter of degree inflation that occurred during the last recession. So many people ended up accepting positions "beneath their education level" that it artificially inflated the "minimum qualifications" for those positions. What previously required a high school diploma suddenly required a Baccalaureate. A BA position suddenly needed an MA instead, etc. For no other reason than that the last person who held the job had that degree.

 

But now, the damage is done, so your friend might as well get a job wherever she can.

 

 

a

[Renee in NC]

I remember hearing a prison chaplain speak similar words at our church some 25 years ago. He said the majority of prisoners he worked with did not have low self-esteem, they had a highly inflated sense of self-esteem with a huge sense of entitlement.

 

That sense of entitlement seems to be responsible for a lot of societal ills; stealing, 'white collar' crime, extra-marital affairs, much of it has its roots in the thought that "I deserve more than I have".

 

This is very, very true. In the past week, a situation has happened between my dc and the neighbor's dc. There are 3 dc across the street - ages 8, 10, and 11. At Christmas time, my 12yo used his Christmas money to buy an Mp3 player (about $40.) In addition, my dh had an Ipod he had gotten as a gift a couple of years ago. My 16yo had them both on the bed in my 12yo's room when they both disappeared.

 

Turns out the neighbor kids stole them. We got one back, but the Ipod was traded for a Ghost Recon game.:glare: In the apology letter that the 10yo wrote to my 12yo and my dh, he said that he just wanted things that he didn't have. Yes, these kids are poor, but that isn't a good reason to steal! My dc know that if they want something, they have to work to earn the money. Obviously, someone forgot to tell the neighbor's kids this.

[KidsHappen]

This is an interesting question. It's interesting that the NPR program linked the sense of entitlement to praise. I've always thought it had more to do with wealth and freely lavishing gifts rather than having a child work for something that lead to that sense of entitlement. Interesting thread. I'll be curious to hear other people's replies

 

I was just thinking something along these lines last night (while not sleeping). I was looking at a list of traditional anniversary gifts compared to their modern counterparts. Many young couples are starting their marriages with things that couples did not traditionally get until they had been married many years. And then the gifts escalate into phenomenally expensive gifts fairly quickly.

 

 

 

Traditional/Modern

 

 

First: Paper / Clocks

Second: Cotton / China

Third: Leather / Crystal

Fourth: Fruit & Flowers / Appliances

Fifth: Wood / Silverware

Sixth: Candy / Iron or Wood

Seventh: Wool/ Copper Desk Sets

Eighth: Bronze or Pottery / Linens or Lace

Ninth: Pottery or Willow / Leather

Tenth: Tin or Aluminum / Diamond Jewelry

Eleventh: Steel / Fashion Jewelry

Twelfth: Silk or Linen / Pearls

Thirteenth: Lace / Textiles or Furs

Fourteenth: Ivory / Gold Jewelry

Fifteenth: Crystal / Watches

Twentieth: China / Platinum

Twenty-Fifth: Silver / Silver

Thirtieth: Pearl / Diamond

Thirty-Fifth: Coral / Jade

Fortieth: Ruby / Ruby

Forty-Fifth: Sapphire / Sapphire

Fiftieth: Gold / Gold

Fifty-Fifth: Emerald / Emerald

Sixtieth: Diamond / Diamond

[Kate in Arabia]

 

Weren't the paper route kids 11 or something, not young adults? I think there is a big difference between impulsivity in young children (which one addresses) , and a 20 yr wanting to have everything his parents worked decades to have.

Yes, but I wasn't referencing that to start this thread; rather it was something Audrey posted in that thread that triggered in my mind what I had heard on the radio. Not related to the OP of that thread at all. Sorry for any confusion.

[laughing lioness]

I think it's on the 2 million minutes web-site where they have stats regarding U.S. kids sense of "self-esteem" (very high) while also posting how well U.S. kids do on exams compared to kids in India and China (we're in the bottom pickins) on math, science, etc.

The conclusion is that our kids have very high self esteem and very low skills compared to the rest of the world.

I had a neighbor many years ago who was fighting the p.s. admin becasue she felt her dd deserved a gifted program ed. She CRIED over it. They based it on I.Q. tests and her dd scored a couple points below what they were looking for (I believe "gifted" begins aroudn 130-maybe even 135) and they were taking kids for the program at around 120.

Edited March 2, 2010 by laughing lioness

[Margaret in GA]

Me too. But I've also heard about comments from my mom (a highschool administrator), for example, about how many parents consider their children "gifted", or should be in the advanced program, even if various assessments say otherwise. If they don't do well, it's not because of the child, it's the program/teacher/school. I guess for some this leads the child to believe he deserves more because he's always been told he's better, kwim? Maybe some tell their kids they can have/be whatever they want, but leave out the fact that they may have to work hard and sacrifice for it, and maybe even then they won't get it.

 

 

This gifted thing is a real epidemic in my opinion. It's one of the main reasons we left our public school. In our school system you almost *have* to get your child into the gifted program. This is because (1) that's where all the kids who have involved parents are (2) that's where the fun learning takes place (3) the gifted kids actually take interesting field trips So, what happens is the school system tests the kids they think might be gifted. If your child doesn't make it, you take them to the nearby university and get them "evaluated" by someone that can basically say that your child can "handle" the gifted program- which is really just "enrichment" i.e. there is not more difficult work, just more interesting work. So, they have this huge, inflated gifted program made up of white, middle class kids (and I'm not exaggerating here, there is not a single kid in that program that's not) I just refused to be a part of that nonsense. Some of these kids are totally smart and they need to be pushed and they can't be because the school system has had to make the program "enrichment-based" for the kids in the program that aren't gifted. Not only that, but I have a friend with a child in the 5th grade that doesn't know their times tables. Why? Because in the gifted program, they do higher level math all day (remember, these kids are gifted! they need to be doing interesting math problems!) but don't want to get bogged down doing the basics. Totally frustrating.

 

 

Margaret

[stripe]

I think there must be something about modern conveniences making us value ourselves and our time more than in previous generations. It started with "big things" and now we're too busy to cut the ends off of green beans or wash lettuce (or even -- God forbid -- pour cereal into a bowl!) by ourselves. There seems to be no end to our need to save time, yet, still, now no one ever has time for anything important, much less the drudgery of doing sweaty work.

 

I was under the impression that Americans have been shown to have particularly high opinions of ourselves in virtually all areas, including parental views of our children's intelligence.

[KidsHappen]

My son ran into this in jail as well. He was taken from his child, the mother of his baby and a good paying job and thrown in jail for a traffic violation. He was in there with murderers and rapists who were complaining how life was unfair and they were being treated badly. My son in no uncertain terms told them that they were in jail because the put a gun to someone's head and that was no one's fault but their own. He told them to be a man, suck it up, serve their time, learn their lesson and then when they get out they need to earn what they wanted in life because they weren't entitled to anything. I just hope he heeds his own advice.

[Parrothead]

she's sitting at home (her parents' home) waiting for the "right" opportunity to knock.

One of the biggest reasons she is still sitting in her parents' home waiting is because her parents are letting her.

 

If she had to work to support herself, quite possibly then she would settle for a job outside of her field or an entry level job in her field.

[Nicole M]

This is a great topic. I don't have time to weigh in as completely as I would like, but I will say that I have a staff of 15 college students, in work-study positions, stage managers, ushers, recording managers. I have endless problems with these kids. I actually prefer the students who come from poorer families, because typically, they know how to work, but there have been exceptions. I feel like my job isn't just supervising them, but actually teaching them how to work. That is a very complicated thing.

 

The big issue I am facing this year with 7 freshman, several of whom just turned 18 this fall (so young freshmen), is that they don't know when it is appropriate to miss work, when it is not appropriate. If you have a concussion, please do not come to work and put your head on the table when you need to be moving chairs and music stands. If your grandfather has just died, and you need to fly out in the morning, please call me, or get someone to fill in for you. Showing up is good, but putting your body in the room when you are ill or mourning, is sometimes not helpful. If you miss work for a stupid reason, don't tell me, "I hope this won't happen again." Tell me, "This will never happen again."

 

I have only been at this ten years, so I don't have a huge amount of data collected, but the problem is just as bad if not worse than when I began (though I have a larger staff, so I don't know if the numbers have changed out there in the world, or if I just deal with more of these kids so I have a greater chance to encounter the goofs).

 

I guess my point, if I have one at this early hour before coffee, is that we talk at dinner all the time about this stuff, and my children know far, far more than I did when I was in high school about work, hard work, appropriate work behavior. I wonder what other parents are doing to help their children learn these lessons.

[TravelingChris]

Totally agree with other posters that high self-esteem is not good. Yes, criminals do have higher self esteem than non-criminals. Studies show this. Yes, students who have high self esteem score lower on many tests than students who think of themselves not that highly.

 

I didn't really see this with students since before this year, I only taught my three. This year I was teaching 11 others. The ones who are getting the best scores in my class are the ones who confessed they weren't that good. THis was not subjective grading but rather how well they did on quizes and exams. The ones who didn't do very well actually did better in speech and debate (not my subject) which suggests that they learned good speaking techniques but not the hard work behind it. My dd went up against one of them recently and said they borrowed someone else's evidence and didn't fully understand and lost. My dd who isn't as polished a speaker has been doing as well as she has because she is a very hard worker and always believes that she is inadequate. While as a parent I don't really like that attitude, I can see that compared with her much more confident sister, it is an attitude that leads to harder work and more results.

[Laurie4b]

When a heard this on the air, I thought most NPR listeners (being above average) would know Garrison Keeler had already "coined" that phrase in his description of the children of Lake Wobegone

 

Play on!

 

Bill (who was impressed a child even had a paper route in the 21st Century)

 

:iagree:

[Laurie4b]

I think the connection is being praised either for "being smart" or for mediocre work. When praise is directed at effort as opposed to "inborn talent", people's performance improves. Instead of "You're so smart!" praise that "You worked really hard on that" has a positive impact on performance. The other kind of praise has a negative impact on performance.

 

Studies done have shown that members of the US prison population have quite high rates of self-esteem. I'm guessing entitlement is quite high in that group as well. That is the opposite of "spoiled." Most in prison were abused/neglected. Poor little rich boys don't go to prison often.

[cathmom]

There's a book called "Mindset" that talks about this idea of praise and how it backfires. I catch myself now and instead of telling my children, "You're so smart!" I say, "You worked really hard on that!"

 

IMO self-esteem cannot be given. It comes from having achieved things through your own effort.

[Haiku]

I don't know her parents well so I don't know how often they praise or don't praise her, but the fact that she expects the money to just come in because she is asking for it struck me as a sense of entitlement.

 

I don't think that's a good example. I donate money to lots of good causes simply because they ask me to. They don't come and wash my car. In fact, it seems like your example illustrates the opposite ... if we donate money, we are entitled to get something for it.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

I don't think it's any one thing that causes kids to develop a sense of entitlement. I think it's a combination of cultural factors: too much focus on self esteem, too many toys, too few responsibilities, excusing stupid behavior based on ideas that teens are biologically programmed to go nuts and their brains are not fully developed, basically expecting kids to be somewhat less than fully contributing members of a family or society until they have attained a piece of paper or a magic number chronologically. We, as a society, have extended childhood to a ridiculous degree and have thereby removed opportunities for kids and teens to do meaningful work. I'm not surprised that kids rebel against this status by expecting that everything be taken care of for them.

 

We have a fifteen year old, and we expect a lot from her. We have to swim against the cultural tide that tells her that we are being mean and unfair in expecting her to exhibit self-control, responsibility, perspective, and moderation.

 

Tara

[myfunnybunch]

I've always thought it had more to do with wealth and freely lavishing gifts rather than having a child work for something that lead to that sense of entitlement. Interesting thread. I'll be curious to hear other people's replies

 

Unearned praise is much the same as unearned things, I think. If a person grows up constantly being told how wonderful and special and talented s/he is without having done anything in particular to earn it, I imagine it's quite a shock to get out into the world and find that one must actually do praiseworthy work to earn the praise of others.

 

Cat

[Jenny in GA]

This reminds me of when I was a music teacher in the public schools. All fourth and fifth graders were required to be in a "talent show" during music class time. (This was not my idea, by the way.) They could sing, dance, play an instrument, juggle, tell a joke, do a magic trick, whatever. It did not have to be a "musical talent."

 

It was just in the classroom -- not on a stage or as a school assembly or anything.

 

It was shocking how poor most of the "acts" were. That is a whole post in itself.

 

Anyway, one group of girls did a ... uh, performance ... to thesong "Yakkity Yak" (don't talk back). They had some cute props. One girl had an inflatable saxophone, wore a funny hat, and sunglasses. The other two girls stood on either side of her and sort of wagged their index fingers at her and bobbed a little bit to the music (while it played on CD).

 

That was it.

No singing, no real choreography, not even a true attempt at lip synching. Just basically swaying slightly to the CD.

 

Their mothers actually came to class and sat in the back, then presented the girls with bouquets of flowers at the end!

 

Completely inappropriate, since a) these girls had done literally next to nothing; b) the other kids in the class were also doing "performances" during the same class, and it felt very awkward for this ONE group to get showered with flowers as if it was Emmy Night.

 

Imagine kids giving an oral book report in class, and after one of the reports (not even a very good one), the mother comes running to the front of the class to proudly present them with roses -- ha!

 

I found it very interesting, since all three of these girls were the ones who regularly gave me "attitude" during classtime.

[LizzyBee]

My dh and I discussed this years ago when we still lived in Baltimore. From our friends who were teachers, we regularly heard the refrain that they had to build self-esteem before they could begin teaching anything. Dh and I believe that a healthy self-esteem comes at least in part from a sense of achievement, so it seemed to us that the teachers were putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. If they had begun teaching and helped their students succeed academically, the students' self-esteem would have begun to develop on its own, and it would have been based on something substantive.

[Jenny in GA]

Oh, here's another good one ...

 

I had an eighth grade boy student who obviously thought he was Something Special. (He could be somewhat entertaining, and he had apparently been in a couple commercials or something.

 

Anyway, in this class the kids had to keep a daily journal. (There was a prompt on the board each day.) I would collect and grade them about every two weeks.

 

When this boy turned his in, one day simply had the date, and then he wrote under it -- "ABSENT -- my birthday." So I deducted however many points that was worth from the total grade.

 

He was SHOCKED at his grade, and brought it to me, asking why he didn't get a one hundred. I pointed at that page and said, "You never did this one, so you lost a few points."

 

He stared at me indignantly and said, "I wasn't here! It was my birthday!"

 

Can you imagine?

[Aggie]

This reminds me of when I was a music teacher in the public schools. All fourth and fifth graders were required to be in a "talent show" during music class time. (This was not my idea, by the way.) They could sing, dance, play an instrument, juggle, tell a joke, do a magic trick, whatever. It did not have to be a "musical talent."

 

It was just in the classroom -- not on a stage or as a school assembly or anything.

 

It was shocking how poor most of the "acts" were. That is a whole post in itself.

 

Anyway, one group of girls did a ... uh, performance ... to thesong "Yakkity Yak" (don't talk back). They had some cute props. One girl had an inflatable saxophone, wore a funny hat, and sunglasses. The other two girls stood on either side of her and sort of wagged their index fingers at her and bobbed a little bit to the music (while it played on CD).

 

That was it.

No singing, no real choreography, not even a true attempt at lip synching. Just basically swaying slightly to the CD.

 

Their mothers actually came to class and sat in the back, then presented the girls with bouquets of flowers at the end!

 

Completely inappropriate, since a) these girls had done literally next to nothing; b) the other kids in the class were also doing "performances" during the same class, and it felt very awkward for this ONE group to get showered with flowers as if it was Emmy Night.

 

Imagine kids giving an oral book report in class, and after one of the reports (not even a very good one), the mother comes running to the front of the class to proudly present them with roses -- ha!

 

I found it very interesting, since all three of these girls were the ones who regularly gave me "attitude" during classtime.

 

Unbelievable.

 

In our local ps, the students have to audition for the "talent" show. This year the organizer asked the students who play the piano NOT to audition. They played while people were coming in and during intermission. My sister, a teacher and a mom with a piano playing ds, didn't realize this could be to make the lip-synching "talent" look better. Lower the competition.

 

While at a park one day, I saw a 4yo boy go down a little slide to be met by his mother's "AWESOME JOB!" remark. For going down a little slide. That poor kid will never have to do anything to get real praise from his mom. :(

[Heather in WI]

What a timely post!

 

I just started Generation Me: Why Today's Young Americans Are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled--and More Miserable Than Ever Before by Jean M. Twenge. I'm only a few chapters in, but it has been fascinating reading so far. And, it shows with research that most of the posts here are right on the mark!

 

It's not a socio-economic thing ... it's a generational thing.

[stripe]

While at a park one day, I saw a 4yo boy go down a little slide to be met by his mother's "AWESOME JOB!" remark. For going down a little slide. That poor kid will never have to do anything to get real praise from his mom. :(

Tell me about it. This is everywhere. My kids are regularly told "Good job!" at the doctor's office. I wouldn't mind it occasionally, but for things like opening your mouth so the nurse can see in your throat?! I honestly don't think they had any anxiety or concerns, but being told all the time that they did it right, starts to get on my nerves -- I wonder if it makes them anxious. I hope not, because no one seems ready to stop any time soon.

[Photo Ninja]

I think other posters have expressed it well.

 

Unearned praise is a huge problem. Children are praised for doing the bare minimum, and people assume that the praise will encourage them to perform better in the future. However, that usually backfires. If children are told that their minimum effort is "fantastic" and "wonderful", they learn not to work any harder than the minimum expectations. Why do more if what they already do is fantastic and wonderful?

 

Too many children are lavished upon with empty, meaningless praise and rewards.

 

Look at sports. All the children on a team receive trophies at the end of the season. Did they do anything special to receive a trophy? No. Their parents signed them up and paid the fee, which included a trophy for participating. Many of my dc's friends have shelves lined with trophies, but they are not a sign of any accomplishment, apart from having paid to be on a team. Where is the meaning? My children realized that the trophy meant nothing, and usually tossed it into a box in a closet or threw it away. The trophies and medals they display are the ones with meaning - winning the league championship, or taking first place in an event at the championship meet, or breaking a record. They worked hard to achieve their goal, and that symbol has a lot of meaning.

 

My husband coached my sons' soccer teams for several years and had parents angry at him because he didn't want to give out participation trophies. He finally opted for a participation ribbon or small medal only because some parents couldn't fathom their child not receiving a trophy for all that they would accomplish that season (and these had to be ordered before the season was even half over). They seemed to truly believe that giving their children a trophy for simply being on the team would build their children's self esteem and make them better players in the future. Empty praise. Some parents agreed with my husband and understood that giving all children a trophy devalued the achievement of the winning players and team.

 

When this attitude and expectation continues to grow throughout childhood and enters adulthood, we end up with college grads who assume employers will be lining up at their doors, competing for them and paying them lavish salaries for little work. We get students who complain that they received a low grade in a class, thinking they deserve an "A" because they showed up every day and paid a lot in tuition (and yes, I heard a college student say that). We end up with college grads who blame the university for not telling them that getting a degree in history won't necessarily mean they have job skills that apply to any jobs. Yes, I read that complaint by a graduate who said that the college should have told him that there are not jobs that require a history degree. He couldn't find any jobs that he qualified for, yet he blamed the college. He said that he paid a lot for tuition and should have had a job upon graduating, so the college was neglectful.

 

I still don't know what we can do to change this on a large scale, though. I can teach my children to be realistic, and I praise them when they it is deserved. I encourage them to do their best, then know that they can't do better than their best.

[Ibbygirl]

I don't think that's a good example. I donate money to lots of good causes simply because they ask me to. They don't come and wash my car. In fact, it seems like your example illustrates the opposite ... if we donate money, we are entitled to get something for it.

 

Tara

 

Fair enough, but in this particular case she is raising the money to send herself on a trip. It's not the same thing as donating to charity, but of course you are entitled to think whatever you want. :) I just felt like since the money was being raised to send her on a trip that it was surprising that she was doing no work, but that has to do with my own upbringing I suppose where I was taught that you always have to work hard for things. It's just my own opinion, take it for whatever it's worth. :)

[Ibbygirl]

Unearned praise is much the same as unearned things, I think. If a person grows up constantly being told how wonderful and special and talented s/he is without having done anything in particular to earn it, I imagine it's quite a shock to get out into the world and find that one must actually do praiseworthy work to earn the praise of others.

 

Cat

 

:iagree::iagree:

[Hockey Mom]

I don't think it's any one thing that causes kids to develop a sense of entitlement. I think it's a combination of cultural factors: too much focus on self esteem, too many toys, too few responsibilities, excusing stupid behavior based on ideas that teens are biologically programmed to go nuts and their brains are not fully developed, basically expecting kids to be somewhat less than fully contributing members of a family or society until they have attained a piece of paper or a magic number chronologically. We, as a society, have extended childhood to a ridiculous degree and have thereby removed opportunities for kids and teens to do meaningful work. I'm not surprised that kids rebel against this status by expecting that everything be taken care of for them.

 

We have a fifteen year old, and we expect a lot from her. We have to swim against the cultural tide that tells her that we are being mean and unfair in expecting her to exhibit self-control, responsibility, perspective, and moderation.

 

Tara

 

Mine's 17, and yes, we too are swimming against the tide.

 

Our DD has had a part-time job since she was 14. She worked at an indoor-inflatable playground (franchise) for 2 years, and now she works at Burger King. Both of her bosses have made comments to her regarding her work ethic in a positive way. So I assume we're doing something right by expecting "too much" from her.

 

I'm trying to raise kids who will contribute to society...not be another drain on it. Thus, I wear my "Meanest Mom in the World" title proudly. :D

[cathmom]

I just saw a commercial that reminded me of this thread. Apparently some card company is now making "encouragement" cards for kids. The commercial had a little girl who was about to take a Spanish test at school, and her parents had put a card saying "You can do it!" in her notebook.

[stripe]

Look at sports. All the children on a team receive trophies at the end of the season. Did they do anything special to receive a trophy? No. Their parents signed them up and paid the fee, which included a trophy for participating. Many of my dc's friends have shelves lined with trophies, but they are not a sign of any accomplishment, apart from having paid to be on a team. Where is the meaning? My children realized that the trophy meant nothing, and usually tossed it into a box in a closet or threw it away.

 

Yes, I was recently at a thrift shop and there were (literally!) dozens of trophies, all with the same person's name on them. I can't imagine someone would do that with, say, an Olympic medal or Oscar award.

[MBM]

My kids also think little of their *participation* trophies and certificates. If anything, they've found them to be insulting. A few of the trophies and medals have been quite nice. It's a shame the teams and schools dole them out so easily.