S/O -- Christian Marriage Wife Submission

[Nestof3]

Recent conversations have got me to thinking about this. I have seen where some ladies' husbands were glad their wives threw away books that emphasized wife-only submission. There are far more, it seems, who are desperate to get the message out that one of the biggest problems in a marriage is a lack of submission on the wife's part.

 

I've been thinking about how much of a help I am to my husband (helpmeet).

 

I am smart. I homeschool and do the accounting for the business and take care of all of our personal financing. I fix the computers, and I even diagnosed a problem with our furnace (bad ignitor) and helped diagnose a problem with my husband's truck. I hold a bachelor's degree.

 

I am creative -- I scrapbook, make cards and other crafty things.

 

I do almost all of the shopping, plan the meals, cook them, etc.

 

I am rather spiritually mature (though of course no where near what I could be), have studied the Scripture for years and even know some Greek from doing word studies.

 

Clearly, any sane man would truly value my opinion on most matters.

 

Now, aside from a man expecting his wife to submit for fear of not obeying Scripture, why else would a man expect his wife to be the only submissive one?

 

If a man has a smart, hard-working, spiritually mature wife, why would he want a woman who is expected to obey as an adult might expect a child to obey? Why wouldn't a man marry a woman that he considers his equal in both mind and spirit?

 

Is it because they are control-hungry? Is it because all of us prefers to have our own way?

 

This post isn't really about whether a man has the Scriptural basis to demand submission, it's about why would he want to (other than fear of disobeying Scripture?)

 

Does this make sense? And no, the question really isn't specific to my marriage -- it's really just something I've been wondering about.

 

If a man treats me like a woman who has much to bring to the table -- whose opinion matters, and if a man walks as though he is trying to please the Lord, it causes me to repsect him. When he doesn't, it is much harder to respect him.

Edited February 28, 2010 by nestof3

[BMW]

I like your line of questioning. I love the concept of mutual submission. I believe it is very God honoring. I believe that wives, no matter what their educational level and whether or not they can do a household repair (congratulations!) should be respected and honored by their husband. They should be appreciated and treated as adults. I am my husband's peer. I am his life partner. We both have great ideas. When we disagree, we should take a time out (so to speak) and re-address it later, if at all possible.

 

Many proponents of wife submission state that "someone" has to be in charge and have a final say in matters and that it is the husband's place. I believe that we each have a final say in certain matters. When it comes to schooling or childcare or nutrition... if I am more qualified, I get the final say. I don't say that pridefully... it just makes sense! And when it comes to cars, vans, or my husband's strengths, it would make the most sense for him to have a final say.

 

I believe we are walking together. We should honor and respect each other. I've lived the wife only submission in my first marriage and it was abusive and horrible to the extreme. I was belittled and my children learned to ignore their mom and place very little value on her. Nope. Not any more. And I was told that I had friends because I "was allowed" to have them. I was told that I was not to question his decisions and authority. My children were literally told that they didn't need to obey/listen to me. I was told that any good part of me that received positive recognition was because he made me who I was. No identity. All about him.

 

Now, I am not so naive to think that wife submission results in the same nonsense for everyone out there. It may work fine for some people. But I was married to an abusive narcissist. Not a good concept.

 

I teach my daughters that they should respect a husband. And I teach them that they should have an education and know how to support themselves. And that they have a voice and a value that is beyond any man out there. And I love my husband... he is kind, thoughtful, caring and fills my dreams with such contentment... and I make my own decisions a lot of the time and he respects that.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

lack of self esteem, ego, fear

[Ruthie]

Honestly...it is because they have no understanding of the nature of God. They have blind eyes to Scripture.

 

Whenever I hear someone try to compare marriage to a corporation, with the dh being CEO and the wife president or something or other, I always say, can you truly hear Christ saying that? "I am the CEO"?!!!

 

My dh agrees. He is a very strong man. Which is why he can raise me up over himself.

[ereks mom]

If a man has a smart, hard-working, spiritually mature wife, why would he want a woman who is expected to obey as an adult might expect a child to obey?

 

This is NOT the Biblical model of submission. It is wrong for a man to expect his wife to obey him as if she were a child. Submission is not supposed to be something the husband demands; it's something the wife does voluntarily. If she is forced to do it, she isn't submitting. Submission involves a conscious choice on the part of the wife. She CHOOSES to give her husband her respect. She chooses to allow him to have the final say in a matter, although he should listen to her opinion because she is supposed to have an advisory role.

 

If a man treats me like a woman who has much to bring to the table -- whose opinion matters, and if a man walks as though he is trying to please the Lord, it causes me to repsect him. When he doesn't, it is much harder to respect him.

 

This is what the Bible means when it says (I Peter 3) that the husband is to give honor to the wife as a weaker vessel. Many people wrongly interpret this passage to mean that the wife is less important than the husband, or is in some way flawed. What it actually means is that she is valuable and therefore treasured, as a porcelain vase would be when compared to a frying pan. The pan is stronger, but the vase has value because of its delicate nature. When a husband treats his wife as valuable, and treasures her, it is easy for her to respect him and submit to him as I described above.

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is NOT the Biblical model of submission. It is wrong for a man to expect his wife to obey him as if she were a child. Submission is not supposed to be something the husband demands; it's something the wife does voluntarily. If she is forced to do it, she isn't submitting. Submission involves a conscious choice on the part of the wife. She CHOOSES to give her husband her respect. She chooses to allow him to have the final say in a matter, although he should listen to her opinion because she is supposed to have an advisory role.

 

 

 

This is what the Bible means when it says (I Peter 3) that the husband is to give honor to the wife as a weaker vessel. Many people wrongly interpret this passage to mean that the wife is less important than the husband, or is in some way flawed. What it actually means is that she is valuable and therefore treasured, as a porcelain vase would be when compared to a frying pan. The pan is stronger, but the vase has value because of its delicate nature. When a husband treats his wife as valuable, and treasures her, it is easy for her to respect him.

 

Well said. :iagree:

[Peela]

 

If a man has a smart, hard-working, spiritually mature wife, why would he want a woman who is expected to obey as an adult might expect a child to obey? Why wouldn't a man marry a woman that he considers his equal in both mind and spirit?

 

Is it because they are control-hungry? Is it because all of us prefers to have our own way?

 

 

 

Perhaps in different cultures of the past, it was a survival issue at times?

I don't know. We have had many generations of patriarchal based culture and suppression of womens' natural power- which has been a loss for both women and men. I believe that is changing.

It seems obvious that a man wouldn't want a submissive wife, in the most obvious sense of the work submissive, unless he was somehow insecure inside himself. However, it takes two to tango, and a woman who is submissive in the sense of a child surrendering to an adult's authority, is getting some sort of payoff also. They get to not be responsible for themselves- to remain childlike, actually.

I dont know what's wrong with plain old mutual respect- the term submissive just stinks. Each bring their own gifts to the table, and as they both mature, each bring more gifts. They negotiate. Each have their areas of strength and wisdom and each naturally defers to the other's areas of expertise as they fit. They both grow.

I keep thinking the whole submissive thing harks back to eras of small kingdoms and patriarchal based cultures and petty wars and survival issues...it wouldnt do to have men and women fighting for control in the family when the tribe is at war with the next tribe in the next valley. However, I feel humanity has matured somewhat since then and we dont need to bring those absolute type of "rules" to these times- we can use out intelligence to respond to our present times.

Men should realise that a woman standing in her own absolute power and grace and authority is a wonderful thing for the whole of mankind.

[MSNative]

I think men who think like that (that a woman should obey like a child) misunderstand scripture. There is a very good commentary on submission here: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/not2obey.html I think the writer does a pretty good job of answering a lot of questions.

 

If you really want to get into it, or just want to read a fantastic book on marriage, try Love and Respect in Marriage. http://www.amazon.com/Love-Respect-Desires-Desperately-Needs/dp/1591451876

[ciyates]

 

 

 

This is what the Bible means when it says (I Peter 3) that the husband is to give honor to the wife as a weaker vessel. Many people wrongly interpret this passage to mean that the wife is less important than the husband, or is in some way flawed. What it actually means is that she is valuable and therefore treasured, as a porcelain vase would be when compared to a frying pan. The pan is stronger, but the vase has value because of its delicate nature. When a husband treats his wife as valuable, and treasures her, it is easy for her to respect him and submit to him as I described above.

:iagree:

[Pamela H in Texas]

Dawn, I have read the other answers, but it seems the whole problem is that there is a question about what submission really is. And I think that is how come some so-called Christian families have sick control issues going on between hubby and wife as well as parents and children. And why some churches and others in position of authority weild such sick power over people. Both the controllers and those being led have an awful idea of what submission is.

 

AND THEN, when you, an intelligent and mature woman, look in, you say, "there is no way on earth I could act like their idea of ideal." And then men cannot stand to have their wives acting like that.

 

I don't know if there is a how-to book for a more balanced and reasonable approach. I kinda guess there probably is! I read a book years ago (don't want to mention it as my faith has since changed and I don't know if I'd still agree and feel it is as helpful) that was VERY intellectual. It was Christian (mainstream), but gave science and practical advice on applying scripture. I liked that it didn't seem to twist things into an unhealthy version of what God said. And seriously, if God is the creator of marriage, all knowing, and the very essence of LOVE, then certainly he knows how things should be so would not have had the scriptures to tell us to do something sickening.

 

I'm not a very good writer, but I guess I have two points:

 

1) God's ways are perfect so his standards and "advice" is perfect. We need to be humble to follow His ways. His ways are greater than ours. We don't want this world deciding how we're going to behave.

 

2) But just as we don't want this world to influence us not to follow his standards, we also don't want to allow this world to twist his standards for us. We don't want to be unhealthy EITHER direction. We don't want to be non-compliant in either direction.

[jld]

Ruthie, your last sentence is absolutely beautiful!

[smrtmama]

Frankly, I think the whole idea is pretty sick and wrong. As an adult, I'm not submitting to another adult.

[kalanamak]

 

If a man has a smart, hard-working, spiritually mature wife, why would he want a woman who is expected to obey as an adult might expect a child to obey?

 

My off the cuff thought is that it is a "cheap" way of figuring out who "wins" in a dead lock, of keeping a superficial calm in the house, of taking the efforts of the family from a power struggle to getting on with life.

 

Not everyone is cut out to negotiate more subtle forms of human interaction.

 

Personally, I think when it comes to marriage, manners is the most important thing. If you can be as polite to your spouse as you would to the person next to you in line, always, you have taken a big step. Part of the challenge for me is how hubby would treat the person next in line is different than I would treat the person next in line. :)

[Nestof3]

From Ephesians:

 

Wives, {be subject} to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

 

But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives {ought to be} to their husbands in everything.

 

Again in Peter,

 

In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any {of them} are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,

 

I understand you can argue that men should mutually submit because all people should submit to one another out of deference, but the emphasis on wives submitting seems rather clear.

 

Those verses, though, seem pretty straightforward. It seems that many people have a problem with wives being that submissive, so they say that it is misinterpreted. But, it has been interpreted that strictly in many cultures through many times. Another poster on a previous thread touched on some men's views of women -- for example Augustine.

 

Some marriage books stress that women desire love while men desire respect, based on these Ephesians verses. Well, in truth, I desire both. I want my opinions respected. I want my person respected. I also think I have to present myself as a person worthy of respect.

 

But, my thought process has been why a man would want that sort of relationship as opposed to one of mutual respect and love.

[jld]

Your post made me laugh out loud, smrtmama. And I'm really enjoying your blog, too!

[Pamela H in Texas]

As an adult, I'm not submitting to another adult.

 

You willingly submit to people all the time. Everyone does. You just willingly agree to it, see the benefit in doing so, believe you'd do X whatever anyway, etc.

[angela in ohio]

This is what the Bible means when it says (I Peter 3) that the husband is to give honor to the wife as a weaker vessel. Many people wrongly interpret this passage to mean that the wife is less important than the husband, or is in some way flawed. What it actually means is that she is valuable and therefore treasured, as a porcelain vase would be when compared to a frying pan. The pan is stronger, but the vase has value because of its delicate nature. When a husband treats his wife as valuable, and treasures her, it is easy for her to respect him and submit to him as I described above.

 

Beautiful! :001_smile: My dh treasures me, I respect him, and we have a fabulous marriage where we are both perfectly happy and desire to spend all of our time with each other (of course, life gets in the way. :glare:)

 

Personally, I think it is even MORE glorifying to God when a smart, capable woman submits to her dh. ;)

 

My dh is an amazing man; he has no need to have 'control' over me. He is a leader in his career and our community, and he does it with humility and a servant's heart. He actually gets his way very few times. That's the point. He is laying down his life for his family. He doesn't spend his time on boyish pursuits and his own way like so many men; he sacrifices day in and day out. That is what the respect of a wife inspires in a man.

 

I think many people misunderstand submission like many people misunderstand leadership. I know a lot of people who want to be a leader so that they can call all of the shots and do little of the work. When I lead anything, I expect to compromise and do a larger share of the work. So it is with leading a family.

[TXMary2]

Submission is very misunderstood, not to mention twisted by so many. There are control freak men out there who have their wife under their heel. Those men, no matter how one tries to spin it, are not Godly husbands. So many love to quote the scripture that addresses wives being submissive, but they conveniently leave out the command to the husbands.

 

I consider myself "submissive" in a helper sort of way. My dh works hard so that I can be home with the children. I do have some side businesses to help bring in money, but we could never depend on it for survival unless they were all I focused on. I make sure the bills get paid, clean the house with the kids help, shop, cook, laundry and the biggest task of all, educate my children. DH takes care of the cars, the garage, the yard and the garden. He changes light bulbs, ac filters and makes repairs or does anything I put on a "honey do" list. We make financial decisions together. This is the way my husband likes it. If he likes it and is fine with it then I am being submissive. I once had a women's bible study leader tell me that my husband should be in charge of the finances etc....when I told her my dh has no desire to do the bills she told me we weren't being biblical. :001_huh:

[Lovedtodeath]

It is because a man wants respect above all us. Women want love, but men want respect. Men see a submissive wife as a way to get respect.

[Blossom'sGirl]

I have not read the other replies but I think of DH as the leader of the house. I am smart and actually more educated than him (on paper) but I feel that although we are a partnership someone has to be the ultimate leader. If we need to make a big decision I may offer my opinion but ultimately I leave the final decision to him. From what I have read men need respect and I think that when I go against him I disrespect him in a big way. To be honest, I don't like to be the one the buck stops with.

 

I know I would not do well with a controlling husband. I think it is my DH's selflessness, wisdom and hard work ethic that has earned my respect. I would also not respect him if I could order him around. He has my submission because I choose to marry him and give it to him. Not many men would get that from me.

[smrtmama]

You willingly submit to people all the time. Everyone does. You just willingly agree to it, see the benefit in doing so, believe you'd do X whatever anyway, etc.

 

To what people am I submitting, exactly, as you seem to know my mind?

[6packofun]

If a man has a smart, hard-working, spiritually mature wife, why would he want a woman who is expected to obey as an adult might expect a child to obey? Why wouldn't a man marry a woman that he considers his equal in both mind and spirit?

 

Is it because they are control-hungry? Is it because all of us prefers to have our own way?

 

This post isn't really about whether a man has the Scriptural basis to demand submission, it's about why would he want to (other than fear of disobeying Scripture?)

 

I don't know too many men who DO want this. I'm not sure where the whole "treat his wife like a child" thing comes from because the Bible doesn't express that, women surely don't want that and the vast majority of men wouldn't think to IMPOSE submission. I sincerely think that it's much ado about nothing, fear based on some really out of whack marriages which claim biblical mandates that are skewed, selfish and wrong.

 

Submission is something that one offers--man or woman--not something that is demanded and there are few good, godly marriages out there where that demanding attitude is really going on. I think women are so intent on protecting themselves from wrong based on past injustices (unrelated to marriage most of the time) that when they see marriages acting this out they create an almost activist-like crusade against "submission". I really want a woman to show me where it says in the actual Bible that her opinions and talents will be and should be subjugated. Does it *happen*? Yes! But it's NOT there and most men are smart enough to get that. Really, they are. It's also not some men's faults that their wives make an IDOL out of being meek or submissive in a way that was not intended. There are women martyrs in marriage out there, too.

 

I also find it interesting that in making the "case" for mutual submission--which is a biblical truth, of course--women like to offer all of the ways in which they are worthy of equality, all of their talents and intelligence. We don't need to make this case. We ARE worthy, God says so. The Bible has several passages which show God's respect for, love and high regard for women of all kinds.

 

Submission is difficult at times for both men and women, particularly because Christian wives are called to it in a very specific way. But the struggle with it does not automatically mean that we are being subdued or enslaved. The *choice* to submit on some occasions is hard. Difficult does not mean that my spirit is trying to throw up red flags and that my independence is being crushed! More often, the difficulty is simply in our flesh or our pride.

 

If a man treats me like a woman who has much to bring to the table -- whose opinion matters, and if a man walks as though he is trying to please the Lord, it causes me to repsect him. When he doesn't, it is much harder to respect him.

 

Here's the thing, though. We all do things that are disrespectful and/or unloving. God is telling us that we don't get to choose when to dole out respect--even respect in disagreement, arguing, whatever, as long as God's commands and intent are not being hindered. Respect and love are not negotiable in a Christian marriage. TOO many wives are into the "I'll respect him when he's deserving of my respect!" mentality because darn it, they are empowered women who aren't going to be doormats! Well, that sounds fabulous, but also kinda unloving so I guess you don't deserve to be loved right now. Is THAT the truth? Heck no! It's respect and love in the face of one another's sin that gives glory to God.

 

God does say that the husband is head of the home. When he gets married he does not have to apply for the position, he HAS it. God says that the wife IS manager/keeper of the home; how these roles play out in every marriage is different. It's more a spirit of cooperation and divvying up responsibilities in the ways that God has gifted--not *exclusively*, don't go there!--men and women differently. Am I a mushy, gooey romantic woman? NO. But deep down, I do have this desire for dh to take care of me. Not because I'm incapable of doing it myself, and we BOTH know that! LOL These roles are what is GOOD for us and will GROW us most. I truly believe that. Don't wanna grow in your marriage, keep doing it in your own power! lol

 

I think that since it's clear God is all about mutual service and submission that he has in his word distinct instructions for wives and for husbands BECAUSE he knows the unique weaknesses. Who are usually the ones crying foul about not being loved (through respect or romance or whatever)? Women. So who does God advise about being loving? HUSBANDS. Who wishes they were respected even in the face of mistakes and longs for admiration (most)? Husbands. So, of course, God tells the wives to respect them! Do we really think that God is saying that wives DON'T have to love their husbands or that men don't have to respect their wives? Come ON. (This is general frustration, not at the OP. LOL)

 

Take the submission thing in the context of the WHOLE about what God has to say. Don't be like the non-Christians who refuse to enter a relationship with Christ because his *followers* are dopes! Don't assume that submission is about force or belittling or disrespect just because you've seen the mangling of the truth by others.

 

The end! LOL Sorry, this was a treatise of general ramblings. All "you" references are general, too! :tongue_smilie:

[HRAAB]

If a man has a smart, hard-working, spiritually mature wife, why would he want a woman who is expected to obey as an adult might expect a child to obey? Why wouldn't a man marry a woman that he considers his equal in both mind and spirit?

 

Is it because they are control-hungry? Is it because all of us prefers to have our own way?

 

 

I have known several families quite well who appear to have this type of marriage. In two of the cases, I always felt the woman was really the driving force. The husband just seemed to go along with the idea. The feeling I got was that these two women felt the more they submitted, denied their own wants and desires in favor of their dh's wants and desires, the better they were serving Christ. By being totally obedient to their husbands, they were being obedient to God. Of these two I was very close friends with one. I've known her for almost 20 years. Over that time I have seen her dh become more and more demanding. When I first met them, I didn't notice him being unreasonable, but as time went on, those dynamics really changed. He did become the arrogant, I'm always right, I'm the king type husband we sometimes picture. But, I think the wife encouraged it. This has not been a happy marriage for quite a few years.

 

Of course, how well can an outsider ever know the details of someone else's marriage so I could be totally off base here.

 

eta: I just wanted to point out that it might not be the husband, but the wife, as odd as that might seem.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Ishki
another though

[tenoraddict]

But, my thought process has been why a man would want that sort of relationship as opposed to one of mutual respect and love.

Frankly, not all men want mutual respect and love. The man who wants power and control must have absolute obedience from a wife (and children); he's really not interested in her opinion, or what she brings to the table (besides his dinner). Obviously, this man is probably not truly a believer...or if he is, he's very spiritually immature and not listening to the Holy Spirit.

[kmacnchs]

To what people am I submitting, exactly, as you seem to know my mind?

 

Two that come to mind right away: When you worked, your boss; To the gov't.

[Guest janainaz]

I think that more often than not, any successful, long-term relationship requires some level of submission. To me, submission is equivalent to grace, mercy, and love. It's agreeing to disagree, it's not insisting on your own way, turning the other cheek, etc. I don't think submitting is being a doormat without an opinion, but it is, at the heart, an attitude of considering others above yourself (which is not that they are better, just that your focus is on being a peacemaker). You learn when to step-off and step-back.

 

I'm a strong personality in many ways and I am just as much a voice in my house as my husband. There is a mutual submission - acceptance. We accept each other and know each other very well. I know his limitations, he knows mine, he knows when to yield in my direction and I know when to yield in his. It's not perfect, by far, but it is the attitude and heart of our marriage. The word submission feels threatening to even hear and I wish another word for it would be used.

 

Any man that is insitent on his wife being "submissive" in a way that builds his ego, is not displaying love. I also don't think it's healthy to be a wife that submits in that way to a man that is not leading in the right direction. Women were given a voice, and I don't believe it's Gods will or desire for any of them to be abused. I've seen several women end up divorced because they thought they were doing the right thing by "submitting" - when what they needed to be doing was standing up and having some self-respect and dignity.

[TXMary2]

To what people am I submitting, exactly, as you seem to know my mind?

 

Unless you regularly break laws, you are submitting every day to the men and women who made the laws. Employees submit everyday as well.

[HRAAB]

Unless you regularly break laws, you are submitting every day to the men and women who made the laws. Employees submit everyday as well.

 

I agree to some extent that everyone submits to others, however, the examples of employment and police or law officials aren't the same type of relationship as a marriage. It doesn't seem like a good example. Your husband is not your employer. Your husband isn't a police officer who can write you a ticket or a judge who can send you tel jail. Totally different dynamics.

[smrtmama]

Two that come to mind right away: When you worked, your boss; To the gov't.

 

I'm not in the "power" of a boss (I always have the freedom to leave an employer and I have left employers who tried to exert power over me). I'm not in the power of the government (because I'm not one of those anti-government people who feels oppressed by paying taxes or following just laws, and because I will will either break or make efforts to change laws that are unjust). I don't surrender my authority, my power, or my right to make decisions for myself to either a boss or the government.

[smrtmama]

Unless you regularly break laws, you are submitting every day to the men and women who made the laws. Employees submit everyday as well.

 

And the men and women who made the laws were vote into power by the people who follow the laws. That's not submission. We vote people in to make laws. This is what we asked them to do when we voted. I vote in every election, including the rinky-dink local stuff, so I feel pretty confident in saying that I'm not submitting to laws, I'm a party to making them.

 

I think we must have different ideas of "submission." It suggests, to me, an unequal balance of PERSONAL power (not being lower on a work hierarchy or following laws of the country in which you reside).

Edited February 28, 2010 by smrtmama

[kmacnchs]

I agree to some extent that everyone submits to others, however, the examples of employment and police or law officials aren't the same type of relationship as a marriage. It doesn't seem like a good example. Your husband is not your employer. Your husband isn't a police officer who can write you a ticket or a judge who can send you tel jail. Totally different dynamics.

 

no, but you can't always be in charge. It has been difficult for me to learn to submit to employers, to the law, to my dh, all of them were difficult to do happily b/c I was taught to be self-sufficient and to "stick up for myself" - which means, be a know-it-all. That's why I am so strict in my disciplining of my children (not this thread, I know, but it is relevant) - I don't want them to struggle to submit when they get older (SO hard to break a bad habit or a frame of mind).

 

My dh does not demand that I submit but the Lord does and I am submitting my will to the Lord when I submit to my dh. I have to answer to the Lord whether or not I obeyed his commands or thought that I knew better than my creator. In the same way, my dh has to answer to the Lord on how he lead, the decisions he made, how he treated me, how he raised his children, how he worked (w/integrity, as unto the Lord, etc), etc.

 

So, I even though I think the OP was about why a man would want a woman to submit, I can't help but answer it from my perspective, since that is the only one I have :) But to take a stab, if I were a man, if my wife submitted to me, I would see that she valued the Lord's opinion over the world's...just a thought...

[smrtmama]

no, but you can't always be in charge. It has been difficult for me to learn to submit to employers, to the law, to my dh, all of them were difficult to do happily b/c I was taught to be self-sufficient and to "stick up for myself" - which means, be a know-it-all. That's why I am so strict in my disciplining of my children (not this thread, I know, but it is relevant) - I don't want them to struggle to submit when they get older (SO hard to break a bad habit or a frame of mind).

 

Sticking up for yourself doesn't mean being a know-it-all. It means not allowing someone to wield power over you or treat you inappropriately.

[smrtmama]

Your husband isn't a police officer who can write you a ticket.

 

Mine is. ;)

[kmacnchs]

I'm not in the "power" of a boss (I always have the freedom to leave an employer and I have left employers who tried to exert power over me). I'm not in the power of the government (because I'm not one of those anti-government people who feels oppressed by paying taxes or following just laws, and because I will will either break or make efforts to change laws that are unjust). I don't surrender my authority, my power, or my right to make decisions for myself to either a boss or the government.

 

so this is a self-reflective question (not like you need to answer *me*): do you struggle submitting to the Lord? You seem very strong-willed (like a 90's woman ;) I don't know how else to describe it :))...do you find it difficult to submit to what He says in His Word? (I guess you could only answer this if you are Christian - I don't remember if you mentioned this or not)

 

I ask this b/c I was brought up to be that woman and it *is* difficult for me to submit but I know it is what He wants and He is changing me everyday so that it is easier to do so now than it was at the beg. of our marriage (only 4.5 yrs ago)... (I put that in to show that I am not judging - I have asked that Q of myself MANY times!) :tongue_smilie:

[Mergath]

I think this is one of the problems with having the view that the bible is absolutely infallible no matter what. There is a great deal of wonderful advice in there, and those who reject it as a whole because they don't like modern Christianity are throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but it was written by those who held the cultural perspective that women were property, and should be treated as such.

 

That's not to say that men in that time period never respected any woman, but women were expected to do what men told them. So, to try to read layers of nuance into the whole idea of submissiveness is missing the point, imho. Yes, the bible does advocate for women to submit to their husbands, but we live in a completely different time and culture, and that simply doesn't hold true anymore.

[sarawatsonim]

And the men and women who made the laws were vote into power by the people who follow the laws. That's not submission. We vote people in to make laws. This is what we asked them to do when we voted. I vote in every election, including the rinky-dink local stuff, so I feel pretty confident in saying that I'm not submitting to laws, I'm a party to making them.

 

I think we must have different ideas of "submission." It suggests, to me, an unequal balance of PERSONAL power (not being lower on a work hierarchy or following laws of the country in which you reside).

 

:iagree:

 

That's really well put.

 

In my home we are both strong willed individuals who work together for the same goals.

[kmacnchs]

Sticking up for yourself doesn't mean being a know-it-all. It means not allowing someone to wield power over you or treat you inappropriately.

 

That's why I put it in ""s - it's not like I was taught to not let someone touch me inappropriately - I was taught to basically tell what I thought with no concern for the other person; to only respect someone if they "deserved" it (imo - as a 5yo :glare:) so I talked back CONSTANTLY to teachers and was affirmed at home for doing so b/c they were "wrong" in my eyes. Guess what? That doesn't cut it as an employee and it also does not help a marriage to constantly have the last word, etc., etc....i digress - that was really off topic - sorry :tongue_smilie:

[6packofun]

I totally agree about this. In these cases, the wife makes an idol of sorts out of submissiveness and really believes that it makes her more godly. We show people how we want them to treat us and these women create an atmosphere of power/control that need not be there. The husband doesn't *have* to follow her lead...and hence, behold, the husband is no longer the leader and see where that gets them on that front. LOL Both are at fault.

[smrtmama]

so this is a self-reflective question (not like you need to answer *me*): do you struggle submitting to the Lord? You seem very strong-willed (like a 90's woman ;) I don't know how else to describe it :))...do you find it difficult to submit to what He says in His Word? (I guess you could only answer this if you are Christian - I don't remember if you mentioned this or not)

 

I ask this b/c I was brought up to be that woman and it *is* difficult for me to submit but I know it is what He wants and He is changing me everyday so that it is easier to do so now than it was at the beg. of our marriage (only 4.5 yrs ago)... (I put that in to show that I am not judging - I have asked that Q of myself MANY times!) :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm not a Christian and I don't believe God needs me to submit. I don't believe the Bible is literal. I don't think it's an accurate barometer for how I should live my life. I choose my behaviors based on what I think the moral, ethical thing to do (based on a combination of evidence and instinct), not because I think a higher power requires it of me.

 

I don't think I'm "strong-willed like a 90's woman." If anything, I identify much more with the second wave of Feminism (60s and 70s) than with the rather self-centered third wave of Feminism (90s and beyond). I think an empowered woman is timeless and has existed throughout history.

[smrtmama]

:iagree:

 

That's really well put.

 

In my home we are both strong willed individuals who work together for the same goals.

 

We also divvy up the work and decision making based on who has the most past experience or best skills for the job. I respect my husband's intelligence and his personal power, so if he's the best man for the job, he should be the one to do it. It doesn't mean I'm submitting to his power, but I respect that he HAS power and skills, and it makes sense that he uses them when it's appropriate. He does the same for me. It doesn't take away my power or make me less of a equal for us to each handle the jobs we're best at doing.

[Renee in NC]

I have known several families quite well who appear to have this type of marriage. In two of the cases, I always felt the woman was really the driving force. The husband just seemed to go along with the idea. The feeling I got was that these two women felt the more they submitted, denied their own wants and desires in favor of their dh's wants and desires, the better they were serving Christ. By being totally obedient to their husbands, they were being obedient to God. Of these two I was very close friends with one. I've known her for almost 20 years. Over that time I have seen her dh become more and more demanding. When I first met them, I didn't notice him being unreasonable, but as time went on, those dynamics really changed. He did become the arrogant, I'm always right, I'm the king type husband we sometimes picture. But, I think the wife encouraged it. This has not been a happy marriage for quite a few years.

 

Of course, how well can an outsider ever know the details of someone else's marriage so I could be totally off base here.

 

eta: I just wanted to point out that it might not be the husband, but the wife, as odd as that might seem.

 

This is what happened in our marriage, but it took maybe a couple of months for it to fall apart. It took way more than a couple of months to go back. Yes, it was driven by me, and by women on a couple of message boards. Things would happen, I would go ask, "What do I do?" there would be answers that pushed more and more into (what I see now) as the ridiculous! It was as if you were supposed to remove your brain and implant your dh's - even to the point of trying to determine what *he* would do in a certain circumstance so that you could "submit to his will."

 

He got depressed and nasty, and I began to get angry - why would God have given me a brain if he didn't want me to use it? We were miserable! And yes, I think we are still facing the repercussions today of my "checking out" in order to submit (as defined by people like the Pearls.)

 

And this is not isolated - there are a myriad of message boards and definitely churches that teach just this thing. The patriarchy movement is at the extreme end of this continuum (at least in the Christian world.) Sometimes we just want to do the right thing, and certain groups, authors, etc. use Scripture to back up their claim that this is the right thing. So you do it, and when it gets ugly, you think you must not being doing it right, so you try harder. And it gets worse.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Renee in FL

[Melinda in VT]

I always find these conversations simultaneously fascinating and frustrating.

 

I think we're all getting tripped up in our terms and talking past each other much of the time.

 

I don't believe in wifely submission. Just like I don't believe slaves should obey their masters. And I don't much care what the Bible has to say about it. :auto:

 

That said, all those rules of good behavior and friendship that apply to my other relationships also apply to my marriage. I don't nag or harp on my best female friend. I try to encourage her and support her. I don't insist on getting my own way all the time. When we are together, I sometimes put my wishes beneath hers. I see the movie she wants or eat at the restaurant she wants. And since it's a healthy relationship, she also does the same for me. It's mutual compassion and courtesy. And it does wonders.

 

I think some people hear that I don't believe in wifely submission and they imagine that I insist on winning every disagreement, fighting to the death to do things my way. :001_huh:

 

And I'm guessing that the mental image I get of what wifely submission looks like probably doesn't match their marriages very closely either. :tongue_smilie:

 

Back when I believed the man should be the head of the house, I would have told you that DH was the head of the family . . . but our day-to-day interactions looked remarkably similar to how they are today. I'm just no longer concerned with admitting that he's not. We are partners. There is no head.

[Renee in NC]

Seemed too snarky, so I deleted.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Renee in FL

[smrtmama]

I always find these conversations simultaneously fascinating and frustrating.

 

I think we're all getting tripped up in our terms and talking past each other much of the time.

 

I don't believe in wifely submission. Just like I don't believe slaves should obey their masters. And I don't much care what the Bible has to say about it. :auto:

 

That said, all those rules of good behavior and friendship that apply to my other relationships also apply to my marriage. I don't nag or harp on my best female friend. I try to encourage her and support her. I don't insist on getting my own way all the time. When we are together, I sometimes put my wishes beneath hers. I see the movie she wants or eat at the restaurant she wants. And since it's a healthy relationship, she also does the same for me. It's mutual compassion and courtesy. And it does wonders.

 

I think some people hear that I don't believe in wifely submission and they imagine that I insist on winning every disagreement, fighting to the death to do things my way. :001_huh:

 

And I'm guessing that the mental image I get of what wifely submission looks like probably doesn't match their marriages very closely either. :tongue_smilie:

 

Back when I believed the man should be the head of the house, I would have told you that DH was the head of the family . . . but our day-to-day interactions looked remarkably similar to how they are today. I'm just no longer concerned with admitting that he's not. We are partners. There is no head.

 

Exactly. The whole notion that because I'm not subservient, it must mean I'm dominant is just ludicrous. We're equals in our marriage. The amount of burden shifts back and forth. The amount of responsibility shifts back and forth. We always come back to a center of balance, equality, and mutual RESPECT. I don't see a need for one partner to submit to the other. The word for a person who is submitting is "submissive" and I don't think a marriage thrives when either party is submissive.

[sarawatsonim]

We also divvy up the work and decision making based on who has the most past experience or best skills for the job. I respect my husband's intelligence and his personal power, so if he's the best man for the job, he should be the one to do it. It doesn't mean I'm submitting to his power, but I respect that he HAS power and skills, and it makes sense that he uses them when it's appropriate. He does the same for me. It doesn't take away my power or make me less of a equal for us to each handle the jobs we're best at doing.

 

That's exactly how it works here. My husband and I both have extremely different educational backgrounds in schooling and in life experiences. So it makes sense to apply our strengths where they work best. No one feels submissive or more powerful because of this and if we did, I don't think our relationship would work.

[Tea Time]

And the men and women who made the laws were vote into power by the people who follow the laws. That's not submission. We vote people in to make laws. This is what we asked them to do when we voted. I vote in every election, including the rinky-dink local stuff, so I feel pretty confident in saying that I'm not submitting to laws, I'm a party to making them.

 

I think we must have different ideas of "submission." It suggests, to me, an unequal balance of PERSONAL power (not being lower on a work hierarchy or following laws of the country in which you reside).

 

Theoretically that is true. It is an ideal model. Theoretically it would work out always. But the fact is that despite my faithfulness about voting, I have never had the opportunity to vote at all on some of the issues that really matter to me. I have never voted for freedom of school choice, for example. I am forced to write a check every year to subsidize a public school system that I have absolutely no desire to support anymore. I submit because I have no earthy recourse not to. I can invent reasons in my head to support it, I can rationalize that it is a good thing that I support it, but it is definitely not what I really want to do with that money. Simple as that.

 

Theoretically the ideal model of wife submission works, too. It is an ideal model. When the women on this board talk about it in a supportive manner, it is in its ideal form just as the above you describe is an ideal form.

 

This discussion is always useless because the nay-sayers are always referring to the failed form while they describe an ideal form of their own views, and the supporters are always talking about the ideal form while focusing on the failed form of the other models of marriage.

 

It drives me nuts!

[MelanieM]

That's why I put it in ""s - it's not like I was taught to not let someone touch me inappropriately - I was taught to basically tell what I thought with no concern for the other person; to only respect someone if they "deserved" it (imo - as a 5yo :glare:) so I talked back CONSTANTLY to teachers and was affirmed at home for doing so b/c they were "wrong" in my eyes. Guess what? That doesn't cut it as an employee and it also does not help a marriage to constantly have the last word, etc., etc....i digress - that was really off topic - sorry :tongue_smilie:

 

Children can be taught to have manners, respect for others and their positions, and tact in presenting their personal opinions without needing to be taught submission. You can be strong, respectful, thoughtful, and stand up for yourself all at the same time. I think teaching young girls that they need to submit to the will of others because they are in a position of power is a good way to condition them for abuse, IMO. At least if you were allowed an opinion as a child you have the ability to discern and choose submission as an adult. Far better than never knowing any choice at all. (In other words, I think you were given a gift by your parents, even if it does mean you used it inappropriately at times.)

 

And :iagree:with everything smrtmama had to say!

[smrtmama]

Theoretically that is true. It is an ideal model. Theoretically it would work out always. But the fact is that despite my faithfulness about voting, I have never had the opportunity to vote at all on some of the issues that really matter to me. I have never voted for freedom of school choice, for example. I am forced to write a check every year to subsidize a public school system that I have absolutely no desire to support anymore. I submit because I have no earthy recourse not to. I can invent reasons in my head to support it, I can rationalize that it is a good thing that I support it, but it is definitely not what I really want to do with that money. Simple as that.

 

Theoretically the ideal model of wife submission works, too. It is an ideal model. When the women on this board talk about it in a supportive manner, it is in its ideal form just as the above you describe is an ideal form.

 

This discussion is always useless because the nay-sayers are always referring to the failed form while they describe an ideal form of their own views, and the supporters are always talking about the ideal form while focusing on the failed form of the other models of marriage.

 

It drives me nuts!

 

I don't think the "ideal" model of wifely submission works at all. I think it's debasing at its very root.

[smrtmama]

I think teaching young girls that they need to submit to the will of others because they are in a position of power is a good way to condition them for abuse, IMO.

 

:iagree:

[Mergath]

I don't think the "ideal" model of wifely submission works at all. I think it's debasing at its very root.

 

:iagree:

 

In my opinion, having any kind of power hierarchy in a personal relationship, be it a friendship or a marriage, is unhealthy. People have different strengths and weaknesses, obviously, but being in a relationship where one person is dominant and one is submissive, no matter how subtle and respect-filled, is generally going to lead to self-esteem issues and power trips.