How do you talk to unschoolers?

[skueppers]

Yesterday, I was talking with an unschooler about my daughter's math obsession.

 

She has wanted a "math lesson" pretty much every day for the last three weeks. I joke that I've "fallen off the wagon," because I really didn't intend to do math lessons with her until next year (her K year). But if she's begging for it, I see no reason to deny her math instruction. We're mostly doing MEP year 1, with some other stuff thrown in.

 

So anyway, this unschooling father (whose only child is under 4), seemed to feel that even if my daughter was asking for math lessons, I shouldn't be providing anything one would normally think of as a math lesson. He seemed to think that I should only teach her math through day-to-day life activities.

 

I explained that my daughter has been very clear that this is exactly what she wants to be doing, that I don't have any learning objectives for this activity, and would be totally fine with it if she lost interest. All of which is true.

 

He is also aware that I plan a more formal academic program for my daughter next year, and that I'm not an unschooler. I encounter him on a regular basis, because our kids are involved in some of the same things.

 

How do you talk to unschoolers? I'm very secure in my own convictions about the education of my children, and don't mind talking with this guy about educational issues. I'm just baffled by the idea that even children who WANT formal teaching shouldn't have it...

[Ellie]

You talk about the weather, or the ball game, or whatever. You don't actually have to talk about how or what your dc is learning, do you?:)

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would save anecdotes like the one about your child's math obsession for someone else. Honestly, it's not like you aren't being child led in this instance!

[rafiki]

.

[Impish]

How do I talk to unschoolers? In English, with respect, just like anyone else :tongue_smilie:

 

Its a difference of parenting choices is all. *shrug* Do whats best for your dd, and let any contrary opinions slide.

[TravelingChris]

I haven't met unschoolers who object to their children asking for workbooks, textbooks, etc. IN the last place I lived, I was involved in three homeschooling groups. Two had a mix of very organized homeschoolers all the way to very relaxed. The third had many, many unschoolers. They did all kinds of structured programs if their kids requested them. They would laugh and talk about how Johnnie wanted to do workbooks or something else very structured. We talked more about resources like cool fieldtrip ideas or contests and less about actual curriculum.

[Mommy22alyns]

You just talk about anything. Unschoolers are people too! :D I agree with Jean - might want to save the math anecdotes for another person.

[IsabelC]

This guy clearly has some misconceptions about unschooling. Unschooling is not the same as avoiding formal instruction. Many unschooled students use curriculum material, and some - although usually older ones - take classes in subjects of interest. A 'normal' unschooling parent - if there is such a thing - would offer math lessons if the child has indicated her interest / readiness for it. You facilitate the child's pursuing of her own interests, and you strew so that she does not miss out on potential things of interest due to never coming across them.

 

If he makes negative comments about what you're doing, I'd simply say "This method is working well for Erika" and change the subject. It's probably not worth discussing in detail with somebody who thinks he knows more than you do about what's helpful for your child, whatever his educational philosophy.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Hotdrink

[Carol in Cal.]

Don't let them.

 

They are out of line.

 

You can listen politely, or change the subject.

[mrs.m]

For anyone who suggests something that I don't agree with I say, "I appreciate the suggestion." I don't try to change their minds and make them see my point of view. I change the subject to something not so personal. And later, I do what I plan to do.

[angela in ohio]

I went to a support group meeting where a mother was asking for help with her oldest son. She was an unschooler, as was almost every other mother at the meeting, and her son was asking for curriculum and scheduling; he is a get-it-done type guy and just wanted a list to work through. I know her son quite well (we ended up becoming close friends,) and that is his personality. Child-led in this case would be to get him the books! But everyone at the meeting was telling her how he was wrong and the only way to be child-led and unschool would be to deny him. It was like the Twilight Zone. I wanted to yell, "How is it child led when there's only one option and it has nothing to do with what the child wants?!!!"

 

I was also in a conversation on this same group's message board about how the only way to homeschool is to go out and play with frogs, not read about them. One other family had the same personality as ours; we are readers. My dc don't just want to see the frog and play with it; then they want to read about it, learn how it jumps, find out what it eats, etc.

 

What most unschoolers (at least the outspoken ones I know or read) consider acceptable is very limited. There is not much room for a child or a family that has a different personality or learning style in "real unschooling."

 

So, anyway, I don't know many unschoolers IRL anymore (every one I knew from the old group sent dc to school by junior high.) When I had to talk about education with them, I got along with them by talking about places we visited, extracurricular activities, or projects we had done. I usually tried to talk about other things, though.

 

 

ETA: Oh, and I would have told him that I never take advice from people with dc younger than mine and then changed the subject.

Edited January 5, 2010 by angela in ohio

[Hikin' Mama]

like you would talk to anyone else who has made different choices than you. If you can't discuss your different approaches without being told you're doing it wrong, then you tell them, "This is what works for our family." If they persist, you limit time spent with them.

 

Why can't we just all accept that we are individuals, and as such we will approach things differently? Most of the time, different isn't better or worse, it is just different. :001_smile:

[skueppers]

Oh, and I would have told him that I never take advice from people with dc younger than mine and then changed the subject.

 

I considered mentioning that I wouldn't have expected we'd be doing this if you'd asked me when my daughter was his daughter's age, but the conversation moved on before I got around to it.

 

I actually often find discussing education with this guy interesting, but this is the first time we've discussed something that was going on with my kids!

 

Thanks for the story about the support group meeting, it was informative.

[LibraryLover]

I have not experienced this IRL. My hsing group is lovey and diverse; we get along great and are always sharing ideas. Some use very formal curic, some are very relaxed, and some unschool. I can never move (at least until my children are all older).

 

The Dad in the OP probably considers himself a radical unschooler. There is a thriving community of radical unschoolers who do think it's wrong to teach anything unless the child specifically asks, as in "Dad, I would like to learn how to read", but even then it's less about using a systematic program and more about reading to the child, and perhaps pointing out print in everyday life in a csaual, 'natural' manner.

 

You can also offer information at times: "Would you like me to do A B or C?" If the child says no, it's no. You don't strew in hopes the child decides to take your suggestion, fi. That feels dishonest to many, so you wait, and observe. Some folks also object to flooding the child with information about something where she does show an interest unless the child has asked for that flooding. The idea is that the child is free to choose, and it's not fair that a parent try to make a lesson when the child is not looking for a lesson. It's better if the child herself goes to the library stacks and fills the library bag with books on dinos or frogs. The goal of a radical unschooling parent is not to turn the child onto to a particular thing, or take it further than the child has asked, it's to observe and support. It's never about 'lessons'. Well, it is about lessons if a child comes to you and has a goal of learning Algebra for whatever reason. But it is the child's goal, not the parent's goal.

 

Most unschooled peeps are less dogmatic about it, but some are very concerned about not 'intruding' into the child's head. I have read online discussions about whether it's right to tell a child what sound a particular letter makes if they have not asked. Some are quite adamant that one not even point letters in the child names before she asks, or say "Your name is David, the first letter make a Duh sound." Some folks have argued it's disrespectful to a child to offer information the child has no need for and/or has not asked for. That this sort of teaching is about parent goals, not child goals. I have heard frequently that children who have done no formal math whatsoever very quickly learn the Algebra they need to know once they are ready to learn it (if they have a goal of taking the SAT or or the like for college, fi).

 

Another discussion I have observed is whether a parent should have 'goals' for their children. Fi, playing a game that involves math should not have the outcome that the child does math. The game is the thing, not the outcome...learning some math. You play the game to have fun, to play. Some people are genuinely concerned about foisting their own educational insecurities, goals and needs onto their children. So, clear as mud...it's not that you can't play and enjoy Mancala, but that you do not play Mancala to 'do math".

 

Most radical unschoolers care very deeply about the emotional lives of their children, and want their children to have the absolute freedom to grow without pressure to perform or have their worth be tied up in parental goals of college etc. They see their job as supporting the child in whatever way the child needs at that moment, the present. There is much discussion about trusting the child to know what they need when they need it.

 

I am sure I have not explained this well as I would like, but I beg forgiveness if I offend anyone people out there with my attempt to explain something rather esoteric.

 

Most unschoolers are pretty flexible and understanding of family culture and style. Most folks understand there is no one perfect way to parent, educate or communicate with a child.

Edited January 6, 2010 by LibraryLover

[dirty ethel rackham]

This case isn't really about talking to unschoolers. It is about how this guy is being a pompous jerk (I had another word in mind, but chose not to use it:)). Most unschoolers I know are very cordial about respecting other people's choices.

 

Basically, like mentioned before, this guy is only good for small talk and only if he can be pleasant and cordial when discussing the weather. (I have met pompous jerks who would argue about whether or not it was cold outside. Yeeesshhh!)

[keptwoman]

Basically, like mentioned before, this guy is only good for small talk and only if he can be pleasant and cordial when discussing the weather. (I have met pompous jerks who would argue about whether or not it was cold outside. Yeeesshhh!)

 

Heeeeey! You've met my FIL!

 

I generally am learning NOT to discuss our schooling with my unschooling friends. I think they think I push my kids and I can't be bothered. Easier to stick to other topics.

[FairProspects]

ETA: Oh, and I would have told him that I never take advice from people with dc younger than mine and then changed the subject.

 

I do think this man was out of line, and I agree it would be a good idea not to discuss schooling with him in the future, but I disagree with the above idea and it seems to be a somewhat common opinion on this board (my point being that I'm not trying to single you out Angela ;)).

 

Just because someone doesn't have children a certain age, doesn't necessarily mean they have no expertise in the area. Dh and I don't have teenagers, but he counsels them 8-12 hours a day and has every day for his working career. He has loads of experience with teenagers on top of years of education in adolescent psychology. It would be a serious mistake to blow off his advice simply because he doesn't have teenagers yet. There are other ways of gaining expertise besides having every experience yourself.

[Trixie]

I have not experienced this IRL.

 

...

 

Most unschoolers are pretty flexible and understanding of family culture and style. Most folks understand there is no one perfect way to parent, educate or communicate with a child.

 

:iagree:

 

I agree with all of the preceding post. Many (most?) of the people I know fall somewhere on the unschooling spectrum, but I have only experienced the kind of approach/attitude mentioned in the OP from radical unschoolers, not from "run-of-the-mill" unschoolers (if there is such a thing as a run-of-the-mill any kind of homeschooler).

 

Funny aside: as I was reading the pp, I was thinking, "Wow! I agree with all of this! Who is LibraryLover and why haven't I seen her stuff before if she's got a gazillion posts?" and then I saw the sig line. :)

[stansclan89]

Just because someone doesn't have children a certain age, doesn't necessarily mean they have no expertise in the area.

 

He may have some expertise dealing with kids of that age, but it is always painfully obvious when someone has never had a child of their own that age. It just changes your outlook when you have the experience (good or bad) with your own child.

[Joanne]

OK, I am at the hospital (still) with my DH and I'm irritated and snarky.

 

But I find it....somewhat silly to be talking about "schooling" any kids under the age of 5 (or 6, or 7........) with any kind of authority or solid theory.

 

I was THE BEST parent when my kids were theory kids or beofre they reached whatever age I was talking about.

 

This guy the OP referenced suffers not only from unschooling myopia, but "I'm the first to ever really have a child and discover this exclusive, elitist group of superior minded parents that adopt unschooling." If you don't agree with him (agree = immediately adopt the words that drop from his mouth as though it were commands from the Creator Himself), you are clearly inferior, unenlightened, damaging your child and there is little hope.

 

Truly, you both have very young children. Do math if she wants to do math. Blow bubbles if she wants to blow bubbles. Take a nap. Read a book. Don't talk to dweebs.

[FairProspects]

He may have some expertise dealing with kids of that age, but it is always painfully obvious when someone has never had a child of their own that age. It just changes your outlook when you have the experience (good or bad) with your own child.

 

Maybe, but I disagree that not having a certain experience themselves invalidates someone's opinion or advice. There are a variety of ways to gain empathy and expertise, not all of which include having had exactly identical experiences.

[LibraryLover]

Don't talk to dweebs.

 

 

Gosh, I love you. :iagree:

 

Take care. Thinking about you.

[LibraryLover]

LOL Gads, I am not terribly proud of my gazillion posts. lol It would be so awesome if I could be paid for my ramblings!

 

It's just what to do while the kids do their thing, but need you close? My house is clean, there's a soup simmering, I read a book this week, my current knitting project is currently bugging me, the chickens are fed, the 4 yr old is sleeping, I am not looking for a cure for cancer, and I already went to college for a billion years, thanks.

 

lol The Internet is an evil thing. :tongue_smilie: Especially in winter.

 

What the heck did Ma & Pa Ingalls do all dang day in winter?

:iagree:

 

Funny aside: as I was reading the pp, I was thinking, "Wow! I agree with all of this! Who is LibraryLover and why haven't I seen her stuff before if she's got a gazillion posts?" and then I saw the sig line. :)

Edited January 6, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Jenny in GA]

It seems like there are two issues here:

 

1) Talking to someone who is being rude/making your uncomfortable. Frankly, when someone has a strong stance, I try to completely let them have the spotlight. "Oh really? How so? Tell me more." Gets you out of defensive mode. Plus they can't argue with you when you have no opinion to offer.

 

2) As far as unschooling ... we were unschoolers until my oldest child was seven. For many years I was actively involved in listening to unschooling conference tapes, reading unschooling books, and participating in unschooling lists.

 

Let me tell you, they are an extreme bunch. It's rather fascinating.

 

My one real-life unschooling friend was just telling me a few weeks ago -- with a big smile on her face -- that she and her husband had no problem with their kids playing World of Warcraft 6 hours a day, every day, if they wanted to. She was telling me much they learn from playing computer games. Her children are 12 and 14.

 

On one of the unschooling conference tapes I owned, a very well-known unschooler was talking about when her child was about 11 or 12, the child watched Roseanne episodes for about 5 hours a day, every single day, for about two months. The speaker was talking about how much she learned from that -- about script writing, about comparing it to other sit-coms, etc. It also led to interesting family discussions. She said it was a wonderful learning experience that the child wouldn't have had if they had rules about TV.

 

Another big thing was not making kids do chores -- in fact, not even picking up after themselves -- unless they wanted to. Yes, the well-known unschoolers say, you can do that, but unschooling is more pure and works better if you don't. The big advice is to ask them if they want to help, but always allow them to say no. I am not kidding. That is the exact wording.

 

So I'm sure there are different brands of unschoolers, but this might give you some insight to what many of them -- and certainly the most vocal of them -- are like.

 

Jenny

[stansclan89]

Maybe, but I disagree that not having a certain experience themselves invalidates someone's opinion or advice. There are a variety of ways to gain empathy and expertise, not all of which include having had exactly identical experiences.

 

Although their advice may be good or bad, they do not have the experience of being a parent of that age/gender/particular child. They can not understand until they do. They may think that they do...

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I would agree that there is a certain depth of knowledge gained by parenting through a certain stage/age. But it also only gains us experience in what worked for our own children (which their interests and learning styles and our teaching styles).

 

There is also a certain loss of perspective as one moves out of the stage. Not only do you tend to only remember the especially high and low moments and less of the daily grind, but the resources available change a lot.

 

I have had the experience of listening to someone whose detailed parenting advice was based on idealistic conceptions. But I've also had parents who thought that their own experience was the norm or the way that would work for most others (and I've probably been guilty of both myself).

[Jenn in Mo]

I think the response depends on how comfortable you are with the conversation. You know your daughter best and are comfortable with what is working for you guys. It sounds like you and I have similar educational philosophies, so I'm with you on this one, but I'm also all for sitting around and chatting about different philosophies. I'd probably pursue the conversation, with a tone that implied curiosity, not a tone of being intrigued for myself. I'd try to make it clear that what we were doing wasn't budging, but I'd probably ask him why he felt that way and ask him to explain his thoughts on education....just for conversation sake. And I'd be quite happy to tell him my philosophies right back if he was remotely interested.

 

 

I'd treat it as a discussion, not an attack. It's easy to get riled up (though you didn't sound offended) when someone counters our parenting decisions, but I think his intentions were to be helpful, albeit misguided. As a casual conversation, it could be an interesting discussion. I'd probably say something along the lines of, "Well, thanks, but we're pretty comfortable with this route. But I am curious...why would you not feel comfortable following the child's natural curiosity or enthusiasm?"

[LibraryLover]

Some folks might not like this, but I do.

 

Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWOGCg4sHTI&feature=related

[Trixie]

LOL Gads, I am so not proud of my gazillion posts.

 

LOL, well, not a gazillion, I guess. :D I just couldn't believe that someone I was so thoroughly agreeing with had posted so much and I'd never heard of her before!

 

What the heck did Ma & Pa Ingalls do all dang day in winter?

 

Made new Ingallses.

[Mommy22alyns]

What the heck did Ma & Pa Ingalls do all dang day in winter?

 

 

Made new Ingallses.

 

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Rosie_0801]

Although their advice may be good or bad, they do not have the experience of being a parent of that age/gender/particular child. They can not understand until they do. They may think that they do...

 

Quite true, but there are things you won't know or understand about your child because you *are* their parent.

 

Rosie

[lovemyboys]

This guy clearly has some misconceptions about unschooling. Unschooling is not the same as avoiding formal instruction. Many unschooled students use curriculum material, and some - although usually older ones - take classes in subjects of interest. A 'normal' unschooling parent - if there is such a thing - would offer math lessons if the child has indicated her interest / readiness for it. You facilitate the child's pursuing of her own interests, and you strew so that she does not miss out on potential things of interest due to never coming across them.

 

If he makes negative comments about what you're doing, I'd simply say "This method is working well for Erika" and change the subject. It's probably not worth discussing in detail with somebody who thinks he knows more than you do about what's helpful for your child, whatever his educational philosophy.

 

Actually, I think the biggest factor here is that the man's daughter is only 4. So her little life is all about her interests at this age. It might very well be a different conversation several years from now.

 

:iagree: Otherwise, this what I've found to be true too. The unschoolers I'm familiar with fall in the spectrum of very relaxed to very busy with classes, explorations, curriculum. A couple have very intense math whizzes and those families definitely do a lot of math -- somewhat formal, very advanced work because that's what their dc love and are skilled with.