Talk me back from the ledge...

[Mommy22alyns]

Please go easy on me... I'm already being hard on myself. But I need real, practical help here. I stupidly thought that by homeschooling we could miss out on some of the bad attitudes and behaviors that might be picked up in a school setting, but I am apparently wrong. I've had a rotten week with Rebecca and I'm at my wit's end.

 

She just doesn't know when to STOP. She doesn't GET when to quit pushing an issue. I can discipline her for one little thing and she will spend the rest of the night arguing and sulking and then the whole thing's spiraled out of control. Like last night - she snatched a little toy of Sylvia's and when Sylvie screamed, she threw it back and it hit me. So I took away Becca's little doll for the rest of the night. I told her exactly why. I told her exactly when she would get it back. But Becca sulked all through her bath, whined and cried that I didn't like her, and kept pushing it "Maybe when I get out of the tub I can have Lemon Meringue back." NO, I told her exactly when she'd get the doll back. She even wrote a note with bathtub crayon on the tub wall asking for it back. :glare: So she got quiet time in her room. I sent her in there with a timer and specific instructions. She popped back out at least 3 times before the timer went off. "I'm tired of reading. I can play quietly with my sister now. Why can't I come out?" I TOLD her! So this added to my frustration and anger, which had been building for about an hour and a half by then. I sent Becca directly to bed. Well that did it for her. She kept protesting that she was the oldest and she should go to bed second, she wasn't tired yet, she couldn't go to sleep without a story (she lost the story at some point with the attitude and disobedience)... on and on. She came back out 4 times before finally going to sleep. She lost the aquarium on her second trip out and her special fairy blanket on her third trip out. I had half a mind to drop that blanket at Goodwill.

 

I am just at the end of my rope with her. Where does, "You don't like me" come from??? And then I have poor Sylvia, caught in the middle of all this fussing, just trying to stay out of the way. We're in a tiny house, DH works full time and has a long commute and odd hours, I have no family or friends in the area. I also have treatment-resistant depression, compounded by a lot of difficulties in getting and keeping me on the right meds. So enough on my plate without a badly behaved kid.

 

It was so bad after last night that I told DH that maybe I should just put Becca in school. She can go be a gem for other people all day and I'll have fewer hours that I have to deal with the worst of her. This is the most serious I have been about it.

 

So please... I need help from the Hive mamas.

[Jean in Newcastle]

:grouphug: I'm sorry. It is hard. But she's six and they will try to push the boundaries. You just have to be consistent. You could try turning her questions around - "When did I say that you could get it back?"

[secular_mom]

You sound like my old self. I overreacted to things my dd did, (and I still do that with The Littles sometimes) and all I did was start a major power struggle over every. little. thing. It was a nightmare.

I had to stop and ask myself what was the point I was trying to teach. In your situation here's what I would do now:

I would tell dd that throwing things in the house is not okay, because it can hurt people or break things. I would say that taking toys from your sister is not okay, you wouldn't like for me to take your toy from you.

It doesn't feel good to have someone take your things. Then I would tell her she needs to say sorry to her sister, or do something nice for her. (sometimes kids AREN'T sorry for what they've done, so I don't force them to say it if they don't truly mean it).

I would not have taken her toy from her, that doesn't work for things like this, IME.

I would not have sent her to time out. When I do send my kids to a 'time out' I tell them they can come back out when they are capable of behaving (not screaming because they didn't get what they wanted, not being mean continuing to take things from siblings, not having a sulky attitude, etc.).

 

HTH

[kalanamak]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Sometimes this sticky business of parenting is so perplexing. I keep coming back to the fact that although kiddo can do some amazingly mature things, I can't count on them. He is little, still, especially emotionally.

[Jen in PA]

Amber, so often when I read your posts I think that our girls sound like twins separated at birth! I think that the same intensity that sets Becca apart academically is what makes the parenting angle so difficult.... all intense, all the time, with no off switch. I can't really offer much advice except to say that it sounds like the consistency you are providing will eventually pay off. At the very least, she will be forced to decide whether she is willing to live with the consequences of her behavior. My dd tends to swing in and out of this sort of behavior without any apparent cause -- hopefully this will be a temporary thing.:grouphug:

[Cera]

It's really (really, really, really) hard but try to ignore some of the pestering.

 

I agree with the above poster who said she wouldn't have taken the doll. I probably would have made my oldest pick up the doll and give it back to her sister nicely with an apology for taking it then I would have required her to apologize to me for throwing it at me and been done.

 

The sulking, begging, etc is all attention getting behavior and if you can ignore it it generally diminishes fairly quickly. It is not worth it to be obnoxious if there is no one there to witness it.

[joannqn]

The first thing that comes to mind when I read your post is that you are engaging her in the argument, and by doing so, giving her the impression that she can continue to discuss it. I would suggest disengaging. The simplest explanation I can give is the Super Nanny example...explain the time out rules before hand (when all is calm). Then when she is in trouble, put her in time out and walk away. Do no, under any circumstances, have a conversation with her during the time out. If she leaves the time out corner or chair, pick her up and put her back in it without saying a word. Repeat as many times as necessary until she completes the entire time out without leaving. Discuss why she was in time out after she has completed it properly.

[ma23peas]

So I took away Becca's little doll for the rest of the night. I told her exactly why. I told her exactly when she would get it back. But Becca sulked all through her bath, whined and cried that I didn't like her, and kept pushing it "Maybe when I get out of the tub I can have Lemon Meringue back." NO, I told her exactly when she'd get the doll back.

 

This is NOT about the doll, it's about control. Everytime you 'indulge' her by responding to HER requests, she's in control. As a Christian, pretty much 90% of my conversations even with a child this young come back to our faith...I can only say what I would have done. I would have sat next to her in the bathtub, I would have looked at her lovingly but firm and said nothing about the doll....but I would say "you are in here to take a bath, to get all the dirt off of you from this blessed day, you can remain here and finish your bath, or if you continue to act up...you will get your pajamas on and go straight to bed. I love you more than all the birds on this earth, but I wouldn't let them act up like you have been."

 

 

She popped back out at least 3 times before the timer went off. "I'm tired of reading. I can play quietly with my sister now. Why can't I come out?"

 

You let her have control again, 3x is in control, one time would have been the last time she poked her head out. Next time, don't let it go past the first peek out of the door...put her to bed then with no anger, just gentle/firm reminders of your role and her role...I go back to how God has blessed us with her and our one of our biggest responsibilities is to raise them as God wants us to.

 

I TOLD her! So this added to my frustration and anger, which had been building for about an hour and a half by then. I sent Becca directly to bed. Well that did it for her. She kept protesting that she was the oldest and she should go to bed second, she wasn't tired yet, she couldn't go to sleep without a story (she lost the story at some point with the attitude and disobedience)... on and on. She came back out 4 times before finally going to sleep. She lost the aquarium on her second trip out and her special fairy blanket on her third trip out. I had half a mind to drop that blanket at Goodwill.

 

Things don't mean a lot to kids, you're putting a pretty high value on those things, but you're allowing her to come out....she knows she can. You can be firm and not the horrid mother by setting boundaries..then when she starts respecting the boundaries you respond in praise and respect...not things.

 

I am just at the end of my rope with her. Where does, "You don't like me" come from???

 

It comes from...I get a response when I say this, I get more attention, kids will do anything for more attention, negative or positive. We have to teach them that WE require certain things of them because God requires certain things of us...these aren't my rules, but His rules...and we honor Him because of the amazing sacrifice made on our behalf....for 6 it may be hard to understand but my kids know my motivations. I'm not saying anyone who does not believe does not have great techniques, only can share what works for us...

 

And then I have poor Sylvia, caught in the middle of all this fussing, just trying to stay out of the way. We're in a tiny house, DH works full time and has a long commute and odd hours, I have no family or friends in the area. I also have treatment-resistant depression, compounded by a lot of difficulties in getting and keeping me on the right meds. So enough on my plate without a badly behaved kid.

 

She may be picking up on your frustration and she's modeling it through hers....

 

It was so bad after last night that I told DH that maybe I should just put Becca in school. She can go be a gem for other people all day and I'll have fewer hours that I have to deal with the worst of her. This is the most serious I have been about it.

 

So please... I need help from the Hive mamas.

 

Keep in mind that she is looking to you to know how to handle crises....if they see us escalating at each transgression (1st peek as compared to 3rd peek out of room) then they will escalate after each...the key is nipping it in the bud....but you CAN do this and still be firm and loving, when I screw up and escalate I almost always sit down and apologize but use it as a teaching moment to let them know that we are all fallible...and I don't correct them on EVERY transgression but when they're important I have to...

 

HTH!

Tara

[EKS]

The first thing that comes to mind when I read your post is that you are engaging her in the argument, and by doing so, giving her the impression that she can continue to discuss it. I would suggest disengaging. The simplest explanation I can give is the Super Nanny example...explain the time out rules before hand (when all is calm). Then when she is in trouble, put her in time out and walk away. Do no, under any circumstances, have a conversation with her during the time out. If she leaves the time out corner or chair, pick her up and put her back in it without saying a word. Repeat as many times as necessary until she completes the entire time out without leaving. Discuss why she was in time out after she has completed it properly.

 

:iagree:

[Guest janainaz]

My ds4 (almost 5) does the same thing to me and my dh always tells me to shut my mouth and quit engaging in the conversation. He reminds me that I made myself clear and ds is working me over. It's hard for me when he repeatedly badgers me, yet I see very clearly looking at the dynamic from another person's angle. I REALLY do need to take action and zip it. It is SO hard when they just keep it at, but I'm thinking silence is golden when they start to play games. :glare:

[RegularMom]

I go through this sometimes with my 6yo, too. I refuse to engage in the argument with her. I simply tell her "I already answered that question. I will not answer it again." Then I leave the room. If she follows me and continues to badger me, she goes to timeout. If she exits her timeout before it's over, she goes to bed.

 

This doesn't sound like a school kid vs. homeschool kid behavior. It's just her being six.

 

Hang in there.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Well, putting kids in school and outside activities does give us fewer hours to deal with them at home. But this cuts both ways. It also means that we have fewer hours to work on pruning the bad actions and attitudes and fewer hours to foster the good. It also means fewer hours to cherish our kids and build strong relationships with them.

 

Having your kids at home doesn't automatically mean there is never conflict. There are days when the main thing we accomplish is to address some heart issue rather than check off boxes on my academic to do list.

 

You've already gotten great observations.

 

Don't threaten with a consequence if you aren't willing to go through with it. I swear that my kids can tell when I'm bluffing. It doesn't do any good to say, stop or we're leaving if you really won't leave if the behavior continues.

 

I'm a huge fan of the Gary Chapman books about 5 Love Languages. I think that a lot of the kids that I notice in public who are misbehaving are looking for attention or have some basic need (they are tired, thirsty, scared etc). When my kids were younger, I had to remind myself to consider when we'd last eaten or what time it was when they started acting out.

[Remudamom]

Yep, quit debating and start ignoring. Don't let her push your buttons.

[LibraryLover]

I agree.The more you talk, the more she has to talk about. It goes on and on ,my friend.

 

Somethings can be ignored (imo) and some things need attention. You need to really decide in your own mind which things need your attention and which things do not.

 

It's not easy, but one of our jobs is not to escalate a nothing situation...the other job is to intervene when it's important to.

 

Little sibs argue and that's normal. You step in sometimes, sometimes you don't. 6 is older than 4, but 6 is not grown -up. They don't know very much more than 4 yr olds.

[jenL]

You are not alone. Your dd sounds like my 6yo ds. We are struggling with the same things at our house. The responses to this have been helpful to me as well. Sending you hugs :grouphug:

[KrissiK]

I have to agree with the rest of the posters. My six-year old son is very intense and loves an argument and tries to do everything to engage me when he's in trouble. It takes an effort, but I just have him look me in the eye, I say it once, and then ignore the rest. It is hard, but he's starting to learn. Slowly.:glare:

[Kirch]

I agree about refusing to engage in the arguing. It's HAAAAAARD, though! We've been having some of these same issues with ds5, and I finally realized that my emotional response was just fuel to the fire. What seems to be working for us is being clear ahead of time what consequences are for misbehaving/disobedience/disrespect, LOTS of talking about the fact that by choosing a certain action he also chooses the consequence (good or bad), and me making a concerted effort not to take it personally or get angry. The more matter-of-fact I am about it, the easier it is to resolve the whole thing. We start with a 5 minute time out, and time is added one minute at a time as needed if he refuses to go or continues to argue. Five minutes are added if he kicks/hits, throws things, etc. (five minutes each time he does one of those things). We've had two really long time-outs since starting this a few weeks ago, but he's gotten a lot better. It really helps if I can help him reason through the consequences in the middle of it and then give him a little space to make a choice (i.e., "If you don't obey mommy and pick up the toys in the living room, you're choosing the consequence of going to time out and we won't have time to read an extra story. If you do obey, you're choosing the consequence of getting to read an extra story before bed. I need to go put this cup in the kitchen--when I get back, you need to decide which consequences you're going to choose."). Giving him a little space helps him calm down a little and I think it makes him feel like he has more control over making his choice vs. feeling railroaded into it by me.

 

Sometimes he also continues to talk about/argue about something after a consequence has been enforced, and I'm learning to try to just disengage and ignore most of it. It's really hard sometimes! Last week he lost the privilege of going to the playground, and he insisted that when daddy and ds3 went, he was going to hide in the van and go too. :001_rolleyes: Sometimes we do insist that he stop (and send him to time out if he doesn't), but other times it's easier to just walk away and let him vent his frustrations.

 

Another thing that helps sometimes is to refuse to be sucked into an argument about or defense of the consequences but instead to ask him whose choices led to these consequences and tell him that maybe next time he'll remember and make different choices. The more we can help him "own it," the less he can blame us for it, and he knows it. Seems to take a bit of wind out of his "mommy is so mean" sails.

[Ruby]

reminds me of some super nanny episodes. She has a website with some ideas. You might try looking up some old episodes. So sorry for the struggles. I know when my boy act up its because I have not been consistent with my discipline and I've let a lot of little things slide until he is out of control. Then we have to spend some time reigning him back in with consistent expectations and limits followed up with the consequence. I get a lot of attitude and crying but after a couple of day or so he starts to realize that I'm serious and can out last him. Hang in there. Ruby

[Brenda in FL]

I pretty much agree with everyone else. But I want to offer one suggestion. Along with not engaging her in the arguements - I would let her know exactly what to expect. If she has been disciplined and sent to her room - before you leave tell her exactly what will happen if she comes out of her room, If she has been disciplined with a time out, before you leave her in time out, tell her exactly what will happen if she continues to argue/complain/moan about her situation.

 

In our home, prolonged/over the top sulky behavior is treated as sinful behavior. If the children engage in it, I remind them that that is what it is and if they do not stop there will be a consequence.

 

Parenting is hard work in these early years - but if you are consistent it will pay off!!!

[Mommy22alyns]

Thanks for the tips, everyone. I am really, really, really glad to know I'm not alone and I'm not a bad mom.

 

I have some more questions on how to deal with the constant questioning. Do I keep responding to repeated questions with, "I've already answered that and I'm not answering it again" or do I just go silent? Or...?

[tex-mex]

:iagree: with much that has been said... sounds like ds has a strong will? Hang in there. It will get easier. One day at a time. :grouphug:

 

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/parenting/effective_biblical_discipline/the_strongwilled_child.aspx

Edited September 28, 2009 by tex-mex

[Jean in Newcastle]

Thanks for the tips, everyone. I am really, really, really glad to know I'm not alone and I'm not a bad mom.

 

I have some more questions on how to deal with the constant questioning. Do I keep responding to repeated questions with, "I've already answered that and I'm not answering it again" or do I just go silent? Or...?

 

For that age, I would say "I've already answered that and I'm not answering it again".

[Joanne]

I have some more questions on how to deal with the constant questioning. Do I keep responding to repeated questions with, "I've already answered that and I'm not answering it again" or do I just go silent? Or...?

 

"Asked and answered".

[RegularMom]

It depends on each situation, really.

 

If I've told her that I won't answer the same question again, and she asks it again immediately after that, I start counting her, and she knows she's headed towards timeout. Eg:

 

"When can I have my toy back?"

"I already answered that question. I will not answer it again."

"Yeah but, WHEN can I have it?"

"That's 1."

 

But if some time has passed and she might have forgotten that she not supposed to ask the same question again, I'll repeat the "asked and answered" but gently, and then I'll offer a redirect, eg: "I've already answered that question, remember? The answer has not changed since the first time you asked it. Would you like to do [insert distracting activity here]?"

 

Most of the time, either one of those will solve it.

 

The funny thing is, they catch on very quickly that you're done debating. Within minutes of activating the Asked And Answered Mantra, both my girls will offer a mildly grumpy "ohhh-kay..." and stop badgering me. And nowadays, I catch them using it with each other, and on very VERY rare occasions, they use it as a joke on me.

 

HTH.

Edited September 29, 2009 by RegularMom
edited for clarity

[flyingmommy]

I definitely agree....do not engage her in arguing. A dear friend of mine struggles with this same issue and I have watched her do this with her daughter for years. Every time I see it happen, I can see that if she would just refuse to rise to the bait, so to speak, the problem could be solved. I've been watching her argue with her daughter since the child was 10. Now, she's 17 and her mother has no control over her behavior, including getting her to go to school every day. The child has learned that if she continues to badger her mother, she will get what she wants.

 

I know that your situation is not this bad, but I know that my friend's situation wasn't always this bad either.

 

If your daughter can read, you might consider writing her infraction on a white board and underneath it, write the punishment. If she gets her doll back at a certain time, write it down where she can clearly see it. If she's in a time out, give her a timer so she will know that it is over when the timer dings. If she continues to ask "when?" you can answer with, "Look at the board" or "What does the timer say?"

 

Anyway, just my two cents. Hang in there.

 

Jeannie

[Barb_]

Here is another trick to avoid escalations. Don't try to talk over her when she starts up with the whining and bargaining. Stop what you are doing, look directly at her with a completely straight "Oh really" face. If you can cock one eyebrow, that's even better. Let her completely wind herself down because she is expecting you to jump in and argue with her. Refuse to engage. When she gets quiet, ask, "Are you finished?" She says yes. Quietly you say, "No means no." She begins to argue again and you just shrug your shoulders, shake your head slightly, wait for her to wind down again and repeat, "No means no." Broken record. Then turn your back and walk away. Busy yourself doing something else. Find Sylvia and lavish attention on her rather than her misbehaving sibling. Once she calms down, toss her an invitation to join you, but don't make a big deal of it. Just a "Hey...you want to paint with us?"

 

Good luck. Here's a :chillpill: for your dd.

 

Barb

 

ETA: I use, "No means no" in addition to "Asked and answered" because kids who are in the habit of wheedling begin to see the word, "No" as a challenge from anyone. They are those kids we all know who have issues with boundaries and don't know how to take no for an answer. I want to be sure mine recognize the need to respect a firm no from a friend or a friend's parent, even when I am not there. I love them too much to allow them to act like jerks and cause people to avoid them. I want people to be generally happy they're around. Don't give up...you can do this!

Edited September 29, 2009 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[CherylG]

I think I engage with my daughter and she is 12. I have just chalked it up to that she was the "baby" and she pretty much has 5 of us at her beck and call. Thank you for all the insights...trust me OP-you do not want to have rules of engagement during math. ;)