"It's hard for boys to write"---I've let this go on waaaay too long.

[yvonne]

Having seen boys in Kindergarten and First Grade classrooms waaaay back in my just-out-of-college days, I completely agree with the idea that writing is hard for boys and that writing should be decoupled from reading in the "early years" for boys.

 

The problem is, I never really determined exactly what was a reasonable period of time for those "writing is hard for boys" years. So... here my boys are almost 9, going into 4th grade, and I've let them get to this point without insisting that they do much writing at all. Never more than a 4 or 5 sentence paragraph. But, when they write their own stories, they somehow survive writing for an hour or more at a time, many pages at a time.

 

I was listening to a VP lecture on cd and one of the things the speaker mentioned, with trepidation she said, was that one problem she has consistently seen with homeschoolers is that that they don't write well. This seems to be a common observation. I wonder if we buy into the "it's too hard for boys to write" for too long, hampering them in the end?

 

Compared with what the VP students do and with what my niece & nephew produce at their private, CK school, I have really not been requiring enough of my boys. And, now, they're used to sliding by without having to write much. And, now, it's going to be painful for all of us to up the expectations.

 

Are we selling our boys short?!?

 

Anyone else successfully get themselves back on track after letting writing go too long?

Edited August 13, 2009 by yvonne

[justamouse]

You use R&S English and you don't find it has enough writing? I was going to order that for this year.

 

I upped my 9yo son's writing, too. He has to write a book report on all assigned books, and I have him do a good amount of copywork.

 

As far as HSers and writing, Dd is aiming for Sarah Lawrence which is heavy on the writing, and she's requiring more of herself as far as it's concerned.

[abbeyej]

And, now, it's going to be painful for all of us to up the expectations.

 

Well, you know, it's the beginning of the school year. And sometimes it's just easier to rip the band-aid off than gear up for it.

 

It might just be time to tell them, "Hey, you guys are older now, you're in 4th grade, and things are about to get a little bit tougher. I have great confidence that you can do it, and look forward to seeing you rise to the challenge."

[Imprimis]

 

Anyone else successfully get themselves back on track after letting writing go too long?

 

Yes, but only after I discovered that my son's difficulty with writing was directly related to issues with the mechanics of writing. He has always struggled with handwriting, and when I finally allowed him to type his writing assignments I was amazed at what he produced.

[JudoMom]

Well, you know, it's the beginning of the school year. And sometimes it's just easier to rip the band-aid off than gear up for it.

 

It might just be time to tell them, "Hey, you guys are older now, you're in 4th grade, and things are about to get a little bit tougher. I have great confidence that you can do it, and look forward to seeing you rise to the challenge."

 

Hey, were you at our house during our first day of school? This is the same speech I gave my older 2 boys this year (we're ramping writing WAY up this year, too).

[DarlaS]

Well, you know, it's the beginning of the school year. And sometimes it's just easier to rip the band-aid off than gear up for it.

 

It might just be time to tell them, "Hey, you guys are older now, you're in 4th grade, and things are about to get a little bit tougher. I have great confidence that you can do it, and look forward to seeing you rise to the challenge."

 

That's almost word for word what I told my 4th grader this year. She really took it in stride. So far, so good!

 

I have been going lightly on requiring writing for her since she's on the young side for her grade, but I have told her a couple times over the summer that 4th grade work requires more writing. Not "I'm going to have to make you work harder this year" or "We have been slacking off and really need to do more writing". Just "4th grade has more writing". I was really nonchalant about it--and so was she. Boys might take it a little harder though, but you never know...

[Colleen in NS]

Never more than a 4 or 5 sentence paragraph.

 

one problem she has consistently seen with homeschoolers is that that they don't write well.

 

I've still never been able to get ds to write more than a 4-6 sentence paragraph for a narration. But I'm wondering what the speaker meant - the quality or the quantity?

 

After hearing SWB talk about this in May, I quit worrying about ds' one-paragraph wonders. I realized that I wouldn't have known how, despite the R&S instruction, to teach ds to write more than a one paragraph narration right now, anyway. SWB's methods made more sense to me - let my 5th-6th grader keep writing a grammar-stage style narration (even if it's one really interesting, nicely summarized paragraph about something he read), while he learns to outline. As he learns to outline from someone else's writing (oh, and I let him learn to type this past spring), he can work up to outlining from several paragraphs. When he learns to outline up to 3 levels of a paragraph, he could do scads of paragraphs and then rewrite scads of paragraphs from his outlines. Then later on, I figure he'll be able to organize his notes from other sources into outlines of his *own* thoughts, and write essays full of paragraphs from that.

 

This way made so much sense to me - it helps kids gradually learn to think through what they are reading/writing, and shows them a practical way in which they can organize their own thoughts into compositions later on. After practicing seeing how others do that.

 

Yes, but only after I discovered that my son's difficulty with writing was directly related to issues with the mechanics of writing. He has always struggled with handwriting, and when I finally allowed him to type his writing assignments I was amazed at what he produced.

 

Ditto.

 

EDIT: I do realize I could tell ds to write 5-7 or 6-8 sentences in a paragraph, I'd just have to make sure he had more to read from in order to have more to write about. Hmmm....I could try this, this year. But I couldn't have done that at the beginning of his 4th grade - I tried and tried, told him he needed to "write more," and it was a ton of frustration, esp. because I just didn't get how to teach him to write more than a paragraph.

 

Anyway, I still think SWB's method will help ds to make the quality of his writing better, and I expect the quantity will come the further he goes in outlining/rewriting.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[pbajgrow]

I was concerned until this year. We started to use R&S and now have plenty of writing for English and then Saxon 54 is all hand written work too. This is on top of the spelling lists I make her do everyday, the actual handwriting worksheet for cursive, and any other geography or science writing she has to do.

 

When I asked my friend, a 4th grade teacher, what I should expect since this is so much work, she replied that if it isn't done to my liking hand it back to them without feeling bad. It will take them twice as long to do it if they have to redo it. My daughter's chicken scratch writing drastically improves when she has to do it over. A few time of having to do 26 math problems over or rewriting 15 sentences will cure the problem.

 

My friend also made sure that I had my daughter read back to me what she wrote. She catches her own mistakes this way and corrects a lot of them before I have to grade it. There's nothing wrong with drawing a line in the sand and standing your ground. If they have to work harder it will build dilegence. It's just tough on mom/teacher to keep checking where the line is:D

 

HTH, Jen

[gingersmom]

This is going to be our 3rd year homeschooling and I have attempted, repeatedly (to the point I am pulling out my hair or going gray or both!) to get my son to write.

 

The first year I cut him some slack because he was still decompressing after public school.

 

The second year I tried and tried and tried. I had little success but not what I was looking for.

 

The third year is going to be the year! There will be no peace in this house until that child writes me a paragraph that is longer than 2 sentences. :001_smile:

 

I don't think its a homeschool vs. public school thing either.

 

My daughter got away with doing very little writing or writing that was just barely writing.

 

There's a new sheriff in town!

[yvonne]

Well, you know, it's the beginning of the school year. And sometimes it's just easier to rip the band-aid off than gear up for it.

 

It might just be time to tell them, "Hey, you guys are older now, you're in 4th grade, and things are about to get a little bit tougher. I have great confidence that you can do it, and look forward to seeing you rise to the challenge."

 

Oh, that bandaid part had me laughing! :)

 

I think that is exactly the approach I'm going to take. I think they would be able to accept it as a "you're older now and you can do it" sort of challenge.

 

Thank you so much, Abbeyej. I do not know how you can always know exactly the thing to say.

 

yvonne

[yvonne]

(we're ramping writing WAY up this year, too).

 

Judomom... What are you going to be using with your 8 year old to ramp up the writing? (I tend to follow your posts because you have a boy the same age as my boys and seem to have a similar academic approach...)

 

Thanks,

yvonne

[yvonne]

You use R&S English and you don't find it has enough writing? I was going to order that for this year.

 

I upped my 9yo son's writing, too. He has to write a book report on all assigned books, and I have him do a good amount of copywork.

 

But see, I don't consider copywork to be writing. It's just mechanics of writing; it's not putting thoughts into words. It's just copying someone else's words.

 

We do use R&S. I made a big mistake last year with R&S 3.... All the writing sections are in the very LAST unit, at the END of the book! I thought that would be ok, but I should have done Unit 1, part of that last Unit on writing, Unit 2, the next section of the writing unit, Unit 3, the next section of the writing unit, etc. The writing Unit is very good. There's a lot in it and it's all very age appropriate. You really cannot fully benefit from it if you try to cram it all in at the END of the year, all at one time. If we'd done sections of it along the way, I could easily have leveraged our other subjects with writing work, supplementing the subjects AND getting more practice writing. :banghead:

 

My boys would have made much, much more progress in writing and I wouldn't be kicking myself now. :( That, and the sudden realization that I've had lower expectations for my boys, just because they're boys is just making me so mad at myself.

 

If you're going to be doing R&S 3, do try to intersperse that last writing section with the rest of the book! (If you're doing R&S 4, the writing lessons are already sprinkled throughout the book....)

 

yvonne

[yvonne]

Yes, but only after I discovered that my son's difficulty with writing was directly related to issues with the mechanics of writing. He has always struggled with handwriting, and when I finally allowed him to type his writing assignments I was amazed at what he produced.

 

But I _know_ that it's not the mechanics of writing for my boys.... I started off with that assumption because I know it's true of most boys at 5 or 6 or maybe even 7. But I never adjusted my assumption. They moan and groan about having to write anything, but maybe they were just playing into my expectations. They sit down and write their own "books" about their Bionicles' adventures, or their stuffed animal's adventures (when they were younger). They can write pages at a time when it suits them. And I know the third graders at the private schools around here produce quality one, two, page compositions.

 

I've sold my boys short. And I think it is a homeschooling thing for me. I'm their mama. If I had them as students in a classroom, I certainly would have expected more of them. AND they would have risen to the challenge and succeeded in meeting it.

 

Oh, well. We're starting a new year next week & I have much higher expectations now that all this has hit me over the head!

 

yvonne

[yvonne]

The third year is going to be the year! There will be no peace in this house until that child writes me a paragraph that is longer than 2 sentences. :001_smile:

 

I don't think its a homeschool vs. public school thing either.

 

My daughter got away with doing very little writing or writing that was just barely writing.

 

There's a new sheriff in town!

 

:lol: I'm right there with you! Even if it kills all of us! :lol:

 

I do think it's a homeschool thing, at least it is for me. I know I would have required more from students than I have from my own boys. Sad, but true.... One, other students wouldn't have bothered to complain. Two, if they had complained, I would not have had any sympathy. :) (I need a mean teacher icon.)

[yvonne]

When I asked my friend, a 4th grade teacher, what I should expect since this is so much work, she replied that if it isn't done to my liking hand it back to them without feeling bad. ... My daughter's chicken scratch writing drastically improves when she has to do it over. A few time of having to do 26 math problems over or rewriting 15 sentences will cure the problem.

 

 

Yes, yes, yes! This just hit me, too, thanks to that VP lecture. Boy, I am just kicking myself. I have sold my boys short on this, too. There is no reason they cannot do their work neatly, consistently.

 

And, again, this is something I would have had no problem expecting and insisting on from classroom students, but which I haven't done because I'm homeschooling and I'm first their mama and second their hs teacher. :banghead:

[Quad Shot Academy]

My son's writing is way behind where I think it should be, but the problem is that I can't find a curriculum that teaches the level I see PS kids at for his age/grade. I love R&S the most for how it teaches writing, but I think the writing lessons are 1 or 2 years behind the grammar. I figured that I would just start R&S 3 with my upcoming 2nd grader and speed through R&S 4 for my 4th grader, but some of the grammar in R&S 4 is very advanced and I can't imagine my daughter doing it in 3rd grade! So, I got Writing Strands and once again, it seems behind. At least with that one, I can speed through it, but honestly, I just don't like the way it teaches. So I am considering:

Stack The Deck Series

Experiences With Writing

 

I am looking for something that can be done every day and done independently. But now I am just thinking that maybe i will use the R&S writing exercises from the higher level books and review them while teaching grammar.

 

So, that is my long winded way to say, that I agree with what all of you are saying, but I don't have any answers!

[Sunshine State Sue]

I have nothing constructive to add to this thread, but I'm so glad that I am not alone. I heard a rumor somewhere that boys tend to develop their writing skills easier in junior high.

And, now, it's going to be painful for all of us to up the expectations.

 

Are we selling our boys short?!?

 

Anyone else successfully get themselves back on track after letting writing go too long?

Yes, it is painful. How can you blame us for procrastinating on the painful? I hoped that it would be less painful in 5th grade than it would have been in 4th grade. I don't think the pain can be avoided.

 

I used SOTW for all writing early on, bumbled around in 5th grade, and started with a program that was helpful in 6th grade. I do feel like we are making progress, maybe not necessarily up to speed yet.

 

sometimes it's just easier to rip the band-aid off than gear up for it.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

Yes, but only after I discovered that my son's difficulty with writing was directly related to issues with the mechanics of writing. He has always struggled with handwriting, and when I finally allowed him to type his writing assignments I was amazed at what he produced.

:iagree:

 

After hearing SWB talk about this in May...

 

This way made so much sense to me - it helps kids gradually learn to think through what they are reading/writing, and shows them a practical way in which they can organize their own thoughts into compositions later on. After practicing seeing how others do that.

I would love to hear SWB speak about writing. But, I totally fear that I would get great theoretical advice that I would not be able to put into practice due to my own inadequacies in this area. :crying:

 

she replied that if it isn't done to my liking hand it back to them without feeling bad. It will take them twice as long to do it if they have to redo it. My daughter's chicken scratch writing drastically improves when she has to do it over.

This helps, but it creeps back here regularly. :cursing:

 

And, again, this is something I would have had no problem expecting and insisting on from classroom students, but which I haven't done because I'm homeschooling and I'm first their mama and second their hs teacher. :banghead:

Really? Every singe one of the classroom students? We have to pick our battles, imo. :boxing_smiley:

 

This thread has me smiling and shaking my head. I have visions of all of us well-meaning hs moms bumbling around. The anti-hs'ers would have a field day with this thread. And yet, I have complete confidence that each one of us will find the way because we CARE more than anyone else.

 

My 2c.

[Cranberry]

I was listening to a VP lecture on cd and one of the things the speaker mentioned, with trepidation she said, was that one problem she has consistently seen with homeschoolers is that that they don't write well. This seems to be a common observation. I wonder if we buy into the "it's too hard for boys to write" for too long, hampering them in the end?

 

 

 

Do you happen to know if she was talking about handwriting, or actual ability to write an well thought out essay or something?

 

I have a 6yo son and I do expect a lot of writing from him (handwriting and story book making, that sort of thing). I push him a wee bit further than he wants to go, but not to the point of frustration and negativity. I've often heard the advice along the lines of "boys aren't good at it...so don't do it until they are older". Well, maybe boys aren't good at it because we expect them to be lousy so we don't give them practice? Just a thought...

My attitude is hey, it may not be fun, you may not like it 100%, but it's an important skill to have so we're going to practice it, and I promise you will be thankful when you are older. I always relate it to whatever field he is into at the moment. You want to be a builder? Great, here's the ways a builder needs to know how to write....

 

I have no advice to offer to get older boys back on track, but my guess is frequent daily practice is the way to go!

 

Good luck!

[Colleen in SEVA]

:lurk5:

 

No answers... I'm just here to listen and learn.

 

This is me teaching writing to my former 5th grade students: :banghead:

 

We are using WWE this year... I have hope. :)

[justamouse]

Well, you know, it's the beginning of the school year. And sometimes it's just easier to rip the band-aid off than gear up for it.

 

It might just be time to tell them, "Hey, you guys are older now, you're in 4th grade, and things are about to get a little bit tougher. I have great confidence that you can do it, and look forward to seeing you rise to the challenge."

 

 

One teacher I know from PS actually calls 4th grade the toughest year in Elementary school, because they have to start applying all the foundational stuff they've learned. So that's a great answer.

 

Yvonne, we differ in our writing definitions. I came around to SWB's way of teaching it. My son is in 5th and I just can't expect him to write me narrative non fiction or fiction. He needs to learn the fundamentals, and then master them.

 

I'm a fiction writer, and wrapping my head around SWB's way was a tough job, but when I sat down and actually thought about how I learned to write, she was correct. And I see noob writers jump into the deep end all the time not understanding the basics, then floundering about, mad that they are not gaining traction.

Edited August 13, 2009 by justamouse

[yvonne]

I would love to hear SWB speak about writing.

 

I love Susan. Her work has helped me more than anything else with homeschooling. I've heard her speak about writing. I agree with her thoughts on decoupling reading and writing in the beginning years, esp. for boys.

 

My problem is that I never got past the "it's too hard for boys to write" part. I mean, at some point we have to have the same expectations for our boys as for our girls, don't we? At some point, the boys have to learn to write well. I've been sitting back on my haunches for way too long, lazy in the thought that I shouldn't expect much writing from boys. _Happily_ lazy, I should add. It sure is easier on me not to have to push my boys.

 

Have we taken SWB's thoughts too far? Farther than she herself intended? I think I have, but I'm not saying everyone has.

 

The anti-hs'ers would have a field day with this thread. And yet, I have complete confidence that each one of us will find the way because we CARE more than anyone else.

 

Fodder for anti-hs'ers or not, I think this mentality about delaying writing is a real issue among homeschoolers. I do not think it is as much of a problem in a classroom situation because teachers don't have the option of putting writing off forever. Yes, done wrong, it can turn boys off to school, but to go to the other extreme and lower our expectations for too long is almost as bad.

 

 

Really? Every singe one of the classroom students?

 

Yep, for the most part, in the private schools I've seen /been involved with, the majority of children...including the boys.... are doing more and better writing than what I've had my kids doing.

 

Over and over, I hear the second refrain to this song..."but they're producing quantity, not quality work." And that's just not the case in the private schools I've seen in my area. Yes, _most_ of the students. Now, one could point at the students in the lower 10% of the class and say, "See, not every child can write so much or so well," but I wouldn't want to calibrate my expectations for my children to that lower end.

 

 

 

 

Do you happen to know if she was talking about handwriting, or actual ability to write an well thought out essay or something?

 

In this instance, she was talking about 2nd graders being "able" to write out answers on VP's Bible worksheets. I'm not saying I think that is useful writing, just that, if even boys can do that much writing, there's no reason they couldn't do other (perhaps more useful!) writing in other areas. Anyhow, she specifically raised the idea of hs'ers struggling with the idea of boys not being able to write much.....

 

Well, maybe boys aren't good at it because we expect them to be lousy so we don't give them practice?

 

:iagree: I keep coming back to the idea that I've sold my boys short.

 

And I wonder if, perhaps, it's a mentality that's crept into homeschooling overall that we should acknowledge and remedy.

[Tony'sMom]

Actual handwriting was ds problem. From day one he was resistant. He formed letters from bottom to top instead of top to bottom, his handwriting was impossible to read and he failed spelling tests at school despite the fact that we would practice the night before (spelling bee fashion) and he knew all the words.

 

One word DYSGRAPHIA. I felt so bad once he was diagnosed. I just thought he was being lazy. Suddenly everything feel into place and made sense. We purchased a laptop and started the typing lessons, we bought lock-laces for his shoes, and the teachers accommodated with oral spelling tests. The difference was amazing.

 

I am not saying that all these boys have dysgraphia! I just want to throw the word out there just in case there is one more frustrated boy out there like Tony. (It still brings tears to my eyes - to think I almost missed this.)

[yvonne]

One teacher I know from PS actually calls 4th grade the toughest year in Elementary school, because they have to start applying all the foundational stuff they've learned.

 

You know, this makes so much sense. Maybe this is why, facing 4th grade with my boys, I'm suddenly a little panicky about having let writing go & wondering if I've been lax in my standards & expectations.

 

Yvonne, we differ in our writing definitions. I came around to SWB's way of teaching it. My son is in 5th and I just can't expect him to write me narrative non fiction or fiction. He needs to learn the fundamentals, and then master them.

 

I'm not so much expecting substantial writing or narrative non-fiction/fiction. I've just suddenly realized that I should have been expecting and insisting on much more frequent, bite-sized writing work... every single week! I haven't done this. :(

 

I do agree with learning the fundamentals first. They need the tools, the basics, before they can ever do anything substantial. I do subscribe to SWB's methodology of teaching writing.... step-by-step. Copywork, narration and dictation are basic, solid steps toward ultimately being able to write summaries of information read and, later, to express one's own thoughts. All those beginning steps, I understand and they resonate with me. I've begun to wonder, though, if it's enough at the 4th grade and up levels. Maybe I'm just getting antsy.

 

But then, I do look at the writing produced by other children my children's age and think, wow, there's more potential there than I'm tapping into.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I see you have older children, justamouse..... Have you done SWB's approach to writing through into the higher levels? Does it "work"? Please tell me it works and that I'm worrying for nothing. (I am good at worrrying. :lol: )

 

Thanks for any light you can shine on the later stages!

yvonne

Edited August 13, 2009 by yvonne

[Wee Pip]

Just have to say, I'm in the same place with my almost 9yo dd (a GIRL, no less!) which makes me think it's a homeschool thing (although boys get a double whammy on this, I think). We homeschoolers always get the advice of - "as hs'ers we don't need to do things the ps way", "hs'ers don't have to do every single problem, or write every single sentence", "hs'ers can do assignments orally", and "if your child has trouble writing, find other ways to complete the assignments". After getting that message year after year, and seeing my dd throw tantrums over writing, I developed really low expectations - "maybe she really can't write". So we're in the same boat. Time to ramp up the writing! Watching her write a sentence is funny - she sits there forever, rewording the sentence she thought of in her mind, trying to figure out how to reduce it to 4 words instead of 10. If she had just set out to write the 10 word sentence that popped into her mind in the first place, she'd have it done already! You have to at least give some credit for creativity (trying to say the same thing in less words, LOL).

 

Quad Shot - boxed Christian curric like BJU (and I'm guessing Abeka) tends to have similar writing assignments & standards to public school writing. The methods BJU uses are pretty much the same to what I hear from ps kids' parents. It has a heavy emphasis on "creative writing" which TWTM warns against (unless your child happens to have an early knack for that sort of thing).

[abbeyej]

I've often heard the advice along the lines of "boys aren't good at it...so don't do it until they are older". Well, maybe boys aren't good at it because we expect them to be lousy so we don't give them practice? Just a thought...

 

I think the thing to remember there is that *some* boys struggle with writing and need a little extra time (but not forever!). Maybe even most boys. Maybe, as a general rule, it is true that "girls" can write well sooner than "boys".

 

But that doesn't mean that every individual boy will struggle to learn to write. Or that every individual girl will find that it comes more easily and smoothly. Some boys write (both the physical act and the composition of language) well from an early age, and simply need some direction and encouragement. Some girls find putting letters on a page painful. Just because *generally* groups of kids may lean one way or the other doesn't mean each of our individual kids will follow that pattern.

 

And I think we really can shortchange kids by assuming something will be difficult for them when higher expectations might be helpful. Just as we would shortchange them by not recognizing and addressing legitimate struggles (even if "most" kids don't have a problem with X or Y or Z)...

Edited August 13, 2009 by abbeyej

[yvonne]

Ok. I've found the missing link for me. This is where I've gone wrong. This is what I've been missing in transitioning from the "It's too hard for boys to write much" stage to the older, "it's time to be writing" phase...

 

SWB does suggest frequent, bite-sized writing assignments. If I'd been doing this all along, I think I'd have avoided my current panicked state.

 

In the second post in this thread JulieOfSardis pasted SWB's "'Nibbled to death by ducks' method of teaching boys to write: You do it EVERY DAY for a short period and yes, eventually they do GET it. "

 

The answer was right there all the time. Oh, well, I hope all my public angst about writing has helped someone else! :blushing:

[Tree House Academy]

I actually came here today searching for advice on this. My son is in 5th grade this year. He was in ps through 3rd grade and then our first year homeschooling him was last year. Currently, my 1st grader can dictate a better summary than my 5th grader can write! It is absolutely horrible. The ps never worked with him on writing - they don't write until 5th grade and even then, it is only because they have a "test." I am really disheartened. Oh, did I mention, I am a writer? Yeah - I have a degree in English with a focus in Technical Writing - so this issue really hits me hard. I went back last year and tried copywork and dictation with my son (we are still doing both). He can do those VERY well. No problems, at all. However, if I try to have him actually write something down, OMG. The spelling is absolutely ghastly - even the word "does," he spelled "dose." :( Currently, he is working (and I mean, as I type) on a summary for two chapters of the book Pocahontas. The first version I received was:

 

Pocahantas save a pale face man. he gose back to Jamestain (he means Jamestown) so Pocahontas brings food to him.

 

This child is 10 (as of Aug 5).

 

:( :( :( I want to CRY! I asked him to add more than that and he started adding quotes from the book...only he wasn't actually quoting them. He was making them up and putting quotes around them.

 

ETA: Version 2 had very little more detail than version 1. It was written better in the 1st half - the second half left something to be desired. And...the summary was still only 4 sentences long. He is currently working on Version3. I am wondering if this is what we should do ALL DAY? :(

Edited August 13, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[yvonne]

Oh, Treehouse, :grouphug::grouphug: It is going to get better. There are a lot of us climbing this hill.

 

Do check out that "Nibbled to death by ducks" thread !! I found it so helpful.

 

yvonne

[Quad Shot Academy]

Quad Shot - boxed Christian curric like BJU (and I'm guessing Abeka) tends to have similar writing assignments & standards to public school writing. The methods BJU uses are pretty much the same to what I hear from ps kids' parents. It has a heavy emphasis on "creative writing" which TWTM warns against (unless your child happens to have an early knack for that sort of thing).

 

I guess maybe that is why I am having such a hard time finding a curriculum, because I have been staying away from creative writing! I agree with SWB on that one. If I would just follow her advice and have them write a history and science report each week, I probably wouldn't need anything else but R&S! They both just really dig in their heels and don't want to write the reports, they would rather be told just what to write, but I guess maybe they should be required to put forth the effort to think about what they have studied that week!

[christielee7278]

Oh wow. I was really thinking my oldest's writing issues were public school related. But it's a boy thing??? YIKES! I have three more behind him!! :lol:

 

Really I'm hoping by having a jump start on my youngers, they won't have the same issues as the others. My oldest didn't get ANY writing instruction is ps, hardly any grammar. He didn't even know how to write a complete sentence!!

 

We're working on it though. I decided, too, that this is THE year.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I must agree with you..at least that's what I did.

 

Handwriting I made 3rd grade the end of grace. K-2 practice, 3rd+ get to work on handwriting.

 

As for writing, I neglected it for some time, also. Then I looked up and was like, WOW...we can't write.

 

I spent a year requiring "papers" about what we learned. 1 page at first (I had 4-6th graders at the time), and slowly built up the length by having them cover more than one Chapter per paper. This removed the intimidation of length, while doing a piece at a time removed the intimidation of content requirements.

 

The second year, we initiated a writing program (Writing Aids) and have now accomplished many genres. I thought getting basic factual papers down was a good place to start. From my review, what I see of others, and other peoples reactions to their writing, I'd say the approach has worked very well.

 

1 important key is understanding the writing process (edits, revisions, works in progress) and the other was simply assigning and following through with assignments.

 

You can break the short-change cycle! lol ;)

[johnandtinagilbert]

I actually came here today searching for advice on this. My son is in 5th grade this year. He was in ps through 3rd grade and then our first year homeschooling him was last year. Currently, my 1st grader can dictate a better summary than my 5th grader can write! It is absolutely horrible. The ps never worked with him on writing - they don't write until 5th grade and even then, it is only because they have a "test." I am really disheartened. Oh, did I mention, I am a writer? Yeah - I have a degree in English with a focus in Technical Writing - so this issue really hits me hard. I went back last year and tried copywork and dictation with my son (we are still doing both). He can do those VERY well. No problems, at all. However, if I try to have him actually write something down, OMG. The spelling is absolutely ghastly - even the word "does," he spelled "dose." :( Currently, he is working (and I mean, as I type) on a summary for two chapters of the book Pocahontas. The first version I received was:

 

Pocahantas save a pale face man. he gose back to Jamestain (he means Jamestown) so Pocahontas brings food to him.

 

This child is 10 (as of Aug 5).

 

:( :( :( I want to CRY! I asked him to add more than that and he started adding quotes from the book...only he wasn't actually quoting them. He was making them up and putting quotes around them.

 

ETA: Version 2 had very little more detail than version 1. It was written better in the 1st half - the second half left something to be desired. And...the summary was still only 4 sentences long. He is currently working on Version3. I am wondering if this is what we should do ALL DAY? :(

 

I'd really point out regularly as you do copy and dictation work that these are the parts that make up writing. Stress them so he sees the pieces of the puzzle fit together. He may need you to point out relationships between the subgroups of language arts.

 

Here's an idea:

1. Take the paper and make 3 photo copies.

 

2. Grade 1 on content.

 

3. Grade another on grammar.

 

4. Grade the last one on spelling.

 

Sit down one day at a time with each graded copy and discuss only that portion of the assignment. This will also help his "see" how they all go together. At the end of the week, give him back all copies (including original) and tell him the next time he has a writing assignment you will be looking for all of the areas to be stronger.

 

Once the papers start coming out with at least a C grade quality, then you can really focus on the specific content only portions and leave the grammar and spelling as either you other school topics, or use his writing for those areas.

 

Since writing is a process (edit, draft, edit, next draft, edit...) when you really get down to it, you only make about 3-5 corrections per page, generally focusing on one troubled area, beyond content. You may, for example, see 50 things wrong, but notice a ton of comma splices. Grade to that this time. Grading writing is a process too! Next time, comment on his improvement in the splices and say, so now let's work on subject verb agreement.

 

It took him 6 years to get here, it will take some time to get him where you want him!

You can do it! What a blessing to have an english major for a momma...I'm green with envy!:D

[johnandtinagilbert]

I would say the balance b/t gentle and adequate schooling is very difficult to find in the first 3 years of home schooling. It is also difficult to compare, or not, our goals with ps expectations. Truly a difference in quality vs. quanity, but at some point, you do have to look and make honest, personal assessments on level of mastery.

 

We all do this...no matter what the subject, I do think, though, that writing does seem to be mentioned greatly in this area b/c writing tends to be the culmination of other subject areas. It's a test for mastery, if you will, of spelling, grammar, dictation, copywork...that's a big can of worms to pile into the one subject we call writing!

[Colleen in NS]

I would love to hear SWB speak about writing. But, I totally fear that I would get great theoretical advice that I would not be able to put into practice due to my own inadequacies in this area. :crying:

 

When she presented her new workshops in May at the PHP conference, they were filled to the brim with practical "how-to" advice. She explained the theory behind each stage of writing (grammar, logic, rhetoric, in 3 separate workshops), and then told us how we could practice the theories and what we could expect to happen, AND how to adjust production expectations for our individual kids.

 

I've begun to wonder, though, if it's enough at the 4th grade and up levels. Maybe I'm just getting antsy.

 

But then, I do look at the writing produced by other children my children's age and think, wow, there's more potential there than I'm tapping into.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I see you have older children, justamouse..... Have you done SWB's approach to writing through into the higher levels? Does it "work"?

 

Ok. I've found the missing link for me. This is where I've gone wrong. This is what I've been missing in transitioning from the "It's too hard for boys to write much" stage to the older, "it's time to be writing" phase...

 

SWB does suggest frequent, bite-sized writing assignments. If I'd been doing this all along, I think I'd have avoided my current panicked state.

 

You do it EVERY DAY for a short period and yes, eventually they do GET it. "

 

You know, it's not too late! :D Put your panic away, now that you have found the missing link. OK, so you weren't consistent. Well, now you know what you need to do, and it's OK to do small assignments as you start up a consistent routine. If you like SWB's way of doing things, then I *highly* recommend getting a copy of her Writing With Ease book. All that copywork/dictation and narration practice is in there, all progressively laid out for you. Read through the book, figure out where each kid needs to start, and begin. When a child reaches the end and can do the things easily at the end (take a 25-30 word dictation easily, write - on their own - a 3-4 sentence summary from a fiction or non-fiction that's about 2 chapters long), move to the next phase of teaching outlining and rewriting from outlines. And if they don't get to the end of WWE by grade 5, that's OK, too.

 

In Susan's workshops, she presented the ideal progression for being able to write persuasive papers in high school. But she also emphasized that even if you don't get that far - even if you have to spend all of high school working on outlining/rewriting from an outline (after putting the copywork/dictation and narration foundation in place at whatever age) and never get to persuasive writing, that it would still be a far better foundation for college than she sees in a lot of her William and Mary freshmen. That really struck me and helped me relax. She said if your kids are well-practiced in putting thoughts into words, words on paper, outlining someone's writing and rewriting from that outline, then she (as a professor) could take your child and teach them persuasive writing easily, because they are prepared to learn how (I guess not all her students are prepared to learn this, even in college!). Hearing this from a professional writer/college English professor/homeschooling Mom/former homeschooled student-who-has-seen-what-many-homeschoolers-can't-do really made an impact on me.

 

She also wrote in the front of WWE, to not compare what your kid is doing, with another kid who is producing reams of writing in a school setting. Don't worry that that 7th grader is doing research papers and yours isn't, *as long as you are teaching skills in that progression.* They will be able to do research papers if they follow that progression, was my impression of what she was saying.

 

I know my oldest is only 11 1/2, but I can say that he has come a *long* way from where he was at, at the end of 3rd grade. Like I said before, he is one of those boys who hated putting pencil to paper. I went back and forth with how much writing (meaning narration and dictation) to require from him, and didn't quite know how to conduct the whole narration thing, for four years!:D Taking him through WWE last fall (the bits where I thought he needed help) was the best thing to help him know how to think through a narration, and then it helped me to see what the important thing was - to be able to write out a few sentences about the most important details in a passage - not to write multiple paragraph papers about it. So, after he got comfy with the narration bit, and was relieved at only having to write about 4 sentences for narrations, I started teaching him how to write one-level narrations, on about 5 paragraphs (so, five sentences). After doing narration, this came pretty easy, because he now knew how to look for the important ideas. A few weeks ago, I started teaching him how to do two-level narrations - again, after a few stops and starts (and with the great helps in the new WTM), he pretty much has the idea and we'll stick with this all year long so he gets really good at it. (He is also continuing to write simple narrations, to practice the paragraph-writing lessons and grammar material from R&S) I figure 3 level-outlines should be a breeze after this, and then all he has to do is start practicing rewriting from them. It's almost like it's a no-brainer process once I got how to teach it to him, yet it *really* teaches him how to sift through what he's reading, to figure out what he's going to write. I am starting to see some things come together for him - writing narrations comes pretty easily to him now, one-paragraphers though they are. But he is subconsciously now putting into practice the picking out of important ideas, and merging that with all the grammar knowledge/paragraph writing lessons from R&S, and coming up with some very interestingly written paragraphs for his narrations - this is a huge leap for him in the past year. I expect that this will translate well when he starts rewriting from his outlines, into several nicely written paragraphs for each composition.

 

I know this is pretty long-winded, but after hearing all of Susan's new material at the PHP conference, so many things came together in my brain and I was able to translate it into teaching, and have seen great improvements, AND, I can see the big picture now, which I couldn't for about 5 years.

 

hth

Edited August 13, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[LizzyBee]

So... here my boys are almost 9, going into 4th grade, and I've let them get to this point without insisting that they do much writing at all. Never more than a 4 or 5 sentence paragraph. But, when they write their own stories, they somehow survive writing for an hour or more at a time, many pages at a time.

 

IMO, your boys are right on track. Many schools these days are requiring a ton of writing before a foundation is laid, so it's really an exercise in futility. When my oldest dd went back to ps last year, I asked one of the English teachers what my dd should know before starting school (5 paragraph essay, research, etc.) Now this school is in a district where the standard is that Kindergartners will be able to compose and write 3 sentences independently; by 2nd grade, the writing requirements are really ramped up; and by 5th or 6th grade, the students are writing "research papers." So I was shocked by the teacher's response: "We assume they know nothing. We teach them what they need to know." The schools feeding into this high school require A LOT of writing; yet kids are coming into the school unprepared for the type of writing required by high schools and colleges.

 

This particular high school teaches the 5 para essay, lit analysis, and basic research skills in 9th grade; abstracts and 10 para essay in 10th grade; 25 para essay in 11th grade, and an extensive research project in 12th grade. Last year, 100% of the students were accepted to college. The list of colleges where students were accepted is impressive and includes Ivy League schools.

 

All that to say that if you are laying a good foundation of grammar, vocabulary, and general knowledge, and your kids can write a good sentence, you are right on track for rising 4th graders. If they can write a coherent paragraph, they are ahead of the game.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't ramp things up a notch this year; I'm just saying that there's no need to stress because they are not behind. :001_smile:

[Colleen in NS]

I actually came here today searching for advice on this. My son is in 5th grade this year. He was in ps through 3rd grade and then our first year homeschooling him was last year. Currently, my 1st grader can dictate a better summary than my 5th grader can write! It is absolutely horrible. The ps never worked with him on writing - they don't write until 5th grade and even then, it is only because they have a "test." I am really disheartened. Oh, did I mention, I am a writer? Yeah - I have a degree in English with a focus in Technical Writing - so this issue really hits me hard. I went back last year and tried copywork and dictation with my son (we are still doing both). He can do those VERY well. No problems, at all. However, if I try to have him actually write something down, OMG. The spelling is absolutely ghastly - even the word "does," he spelled "dose." :( Currently, he is working (and I mean, as I type) on a summary for two chapters of the book Pocahontas. The first version I received was:

 

Pocahantas save a pale face man. he gose back to Jamestain (he means Jamestown) so Pocahontas brings food to him.

 

This child is 10 (as of Aug 5).

 

:( :( :( I want to CRY! I asked him to add more than that and he started adding quotes from the book...only he wasn't actually quoting them. He was making them up and putting quotes around them.

 

ETA: Version 2 had very little more detail than version 1. It was written better in the 1st half - the second half left something to be desired. And...the summary was still only 4 sentences long. He is currently working on Version3. I am wondering if this is what we should do ALL DAY? :(

 

See what I bolded? *This is a good thing!!* Take heart!

 

It looks like he just needs to work on spelling (are you doing separate spelling lessons? If so, then try to force yourself to be nonchalant when correcting his spelling in a narration - just do it and move on.) Something SWB mentioned in her workshops was that you usually start to see spelling improvement *in writing* in the middle grades, so not to panic.

 

And if you want to improve his ability to grasp important parts of what he's reading so he can write a well-thought-out narration, get WWE. Then you won't need to rewrite and rewrite all day. You'll show him how to organize his thoughts before/as he writes, instead. It's more efficient.

 

I think Tina is right - writing is made up of a bunch of other skills, so it's freaky when we see grammar/spelling/thinking mistakes in a piece of writing! But really I think it means we just have to keep working on the skills separately and patiently incorporate them, tiny bit by tiny bit, watching for the day when our kids incorporate them easily themselves.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[Sunshine State Sue]

Watching her write a sentence is funny - she sits there forever, rewording the sentence she thought of in her mind, trying to figure out how to reduce it to 4 words instead of 10.

:lol: Yes, and she's also thinking about how to change big words into small words, like enormous -> big. Ask me how I know.

 

Oh, well, I hope all my public angst about writing has helped someone else! :blushing:

It's been an amusing way to spend the morning. :seeya:

 

However, if I try to have him actually write something down, OMG. The spelling is absolutely ghastly - even the word "does," he spelled "dose." :( Currently, he is working (and I mean, as I type) on a summary for two chapters of the book Pocahontas. The first version I received was:

 

Pocahantas save a pale face man. he gose back to Jamestain (he means Jamestown) so Pocahontas brings food to him.

 

This child is 10 (as of Aug 5).

 

:( I want to CRY! I asked him to add more than that and he started adding quotes from the book...only he wasn't actually quoting them. He was making them up and putting quotes around them.

 

ETA: Version 2 had very little more detail than version 1. It was written better in the 1st half - the second half left something to be desired. And...the summary was still only 4 sentences long. He is currently working on Version3. I am wondering if this is what we should do ALL DAY? :(

:lol: You'll work it out. I think part of our problem is that we don't remember when our writing was that bad, and we don't have any idea if what our student is producing is within the bounds of 'normal'.

[abreakfromlife]

After hearing SWB talk about this in May, I quit worrying about ds' one-paragraph wonders. I realized that I wouldn't have known how, despite the R&S instruction, to teach ds to write more than a one paragraph narration right now, anyway. SWB's methods made more sense to me - let my 5th-6th grader keep writing a grammar-stage style narration (even if it's one really interesting, nicely summarized paragraph about something he read), while he learns to outline. As he learns to outline from someone else's writing (oh, and I let him learn to type this past spring), he can work up to outlining from several paragraphs. When he learns to outline up to 3 levels of a paragraph, he could do scads of paragraphs and then rewrite scads of paragraphs from his outlines. Then later on, I figure he'll be able to organize his notes from other sources into outlines of his *own* thoughts, and write essays full of paragraphs from that.

 

This way made so much sense to me - it helps kids gradually learn to think through what they are reading/writing, and shows them a practical way in which they can organize their own thoughts into compositions later on. After practicing seeing how others do that.

 

I have CW Aesop and I just started reading it last night, and this sounds a lot like their method......I have WWE too and now I'm wondering if I have 2 books teaching me the same thing :D But as far as needing a curriculum to teach it, and to teach me how to teach it, CW looks like it's going to hit the mark for us.

[Testimony]

I have two boys. Just to tell you I had my older son do formal writing at 8 years old and my younger at 9 years old. They both enjoy writing.

 

When my older son was 5 years old, he started writing these little stories. He went from little stories to big stories. He is trying to write more and more. He always enters the library's writing contest. He never wins. He is still trying. We are not giving up. He wants to win that writing contest.

 

I would say, never give up. Don't think it is too late. Take baby steps to get them there, but they will soar.

 

By the way, this is just my experience.

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[NancyNellen]

LOL. I like the "rip the band-aid off" analogy, and I completely agree.

[MerryAtHope]

Well, I actually think that copywork is an important part of learning to write well. I also don't think that going into 4th grade is late by any means. Kids in school may write more, but how many of them have learned to hate it? On the other hand, you have boys who will write stories for an hour for fun. In my opinion, I think it's more important to preserve a love of writing than make them write tons. Show young kids that their words are valuable and important, that we want to hear them and read them, rather than make them write tons just for the sake of saying they did it, and having them grow up without the joy that can accompany writing.

 

Copywork and Narration are two critical components to good writers, and you've likely had your boys do lots of both--I say good for you!

 

I transitioned my son to more independent writing in 5th grade. Before that age, he had done mostly oral writing. I did these things:

 

1, we had brainstorm days. I wrote down his thoughts & he copied them. He wrote some of them too, gradually was writing more as the year went on.

 

2, I began having him copy what I typed up that he had orally written. Sometimes it took a couple of days, that was ok by me. He got to see his own words in his own handwriting.

 

3, by around November of that year, I let him try a writing assignment without me. I told him I wouldn't read it--so spelling, grammar, punctuation etc... didn't count--he would read it to me instead. This took the pressure off, and he actually asked for extra time to write.

 

4, I separated the editing process from the writing process. I don't think every single freewrite needs to be revised and edited. I don't edit every piece I write as an adult, only those I consider worthwhile. Let them choose one piece every 6-8 weeks to revise, and then edit.

 

5, We continued to work on editing, mechanics, spelling etc... through copywork and dictation, as well as other LA materials.

 

HTH! Merry :-)

[rafiki]

 

.

[HappyGrace]

One teacher I know from PS actually calls 4th grade the toughest year in Elementary school, because they have to start applying all the foundational stuff they've learned. So that's a great answer.

 

This was a huge lightbulb moment for me!!!! DING DING DING! I have a rising 4th grader and just can't wrap my head around the planning (every subject). This never happened to me before! But that's it exactly, the application years are starting, and that changes everything. So this helped me beyond just writing-got to the core of the issues I'm having, and I feel better now! Thanks!

 

Love this thread, btw!

 

And to QuadShot-I've been looking for something meaty and substantial too-take a look at Apologia's Jump In. Rainbow Resource has it but you can get a better look at it on the Apologia website. It seems to cover various types of writing in an appealing way, and it's written to the student. It looks like a good transitional stage book. I ordered this and I'm hoping it will help! ETA: Oh, never mind-I see she's third grade-Jump In would be too much. But something to keep in mind for later! Third grade is tough that way-we did IEW and that was a great fit-I could see it working with an advanced or newbie writer. I will do it again with my younger ds when he gets to third grade. We will always continue to use many elements of this great program! I know momof7 (board's writing guru) likes imitative writing for 3rd grade, IIR. Writing Tales is superb for imitative writing too; I have that here and we used parts of it. IEW and WT are both meaty programs! You can tweak them to be quite independent, and WT is all scheduled out for you already. Neither one would actually be "creative" writing. And the IEW you could (and I do) easily use in a cross-curricular fashion-with your history, etc.

Edited August 14, 2009 by HappyGrace

[pbajgrow]

LOL. I like the "rip the band-aid off" analogy, and I completely agree.

 

I told my 4th grade teacher friend about this thread. She laughed and said this is exactly what we need to do. She said there are so many things that are ironed out if you draw the line in the sand at the beginning. It's easier to do it from the beginning of the year than to go back and change what's expected.

[BlsdMama]

 

The problem is, I never really determined exactly what was a reasonable period of time for those "writing is hard for boys" years. So... here my boys are almost 9, going into 4th grade, and I've let them get to this point without insisting that they do much writing at all. Never more than a 4 or 5 sentence paragraph.

 

I wonder if we buy into the "it's too hard for boys to write" for too long, hampering them in the end?

 

Are we selling our boys short?!?

 

Anyone else successfully get themselves back on track after letting writing go too long?

 

I'd say yes and no.

I almost swear Ana was born with a pencil in her hand. She started handwriting around 3-4 and moved onto copywork, naturally, and just began writing long, detailed stories. She writes chapters now, reports, amazing things.

 

Christian was born ALLERGIC to pencils. He had speech issues which slowed down his learning of phonics. The difficulty of reading for him really slowed down his ability to read and read well and enjoy reading. We taught him late and just spent last YEAR getting him to read AT grade level and enjoy it. He now reads well beyond his grade level AND loves it. This year is for writing and spelling and punctuation. Math? He absorbs it like a sponge? History and Science? Loves them. But still, writing is a huge obstacle for him. So we'll really focus on it and as it becomes easier, he'll enjoy it more.

 

But there definitely IS this inborn difference in most (NOT all) genders.

 

Our 7yo GIRL, 5yo GIRL, and almost 3yo GIRL don't have to be encouraged to copy letters, try to write, try to write stories, etc. They just DO it. They're very verbal.

 

Our 4.5 yo BOY? He'd rather use a pencil as something to launch or as some type of weapon.

 

Boys and girls ARE very different. Should we use these difference to EXCUSE us from teaching them? No. I think it's something to digest, take into account, utilize to our advantage, but not to abuse. Do I think it harmed Christian by waiting to work on writing? No, because I think before this point he would have been frustrated and it would have really caused him to resent and / or hate writing. As it is it's going to be a challenge but a WORKABLE challenge which he'll overcome. Same as it was for him with reading and he now deeply enjoys it.

[Testimony]

Well, I actually think that copywork is an important part of learning to write well. I also don't think that going into 4th grade is late by any means. Kids in school may write more, but how many of them have learned to hate it? On the other hand, you have boys who will write stories for an hour for fun. In my opinion, I think it's more important to preserve a love of writing than make them write tons. Show young kids that their words are valuable and important, that we want to hear them and read them, rather than make them write tons just for the sake of saying they did it, and having them grow up without the joy that can accompany writing.

 

Copywork and Narration are two critical components to good writers, and you've likely had your boys do lots of both--I say good for you!

 

I transitioned my son to more independent writing in 5th grade. Before that age, he had done mostly oral writing. I did these things:

 

1, we had brainstorm days. I wrote down his thoughts & he copied them. He wrote some of them too, gradually was writing more as the year went on.

 

2, I began having him copy what I typed up that he had orally written. Sometimes it took a couple of days, that was ok by me. He got to see his own words in his own handwriting.

 

3, by around November of that year, I let him try a writing assignment without me. I told him I wouldn't read it--so spelling, grammar, punctuation etc... didn't count--he would read it to me instead. This took the pressure off, and he actually asked for extra time to write.

 

4, I separated the editing process from the writing process. I don't think every single freewrite needs to be revised and edited. I don't edit every piece I write as an adult, only those I consider worthwhile. Let them choose one piece every 6-8 weeks to revise, and then edit.

 

5, We continued to work on editing, mechanics, spelling etc... through copywork and dictation, as well as other LA materials.

 

HTH! Merry :-)

 

:iagree:

As I wrote a post for another person, I wrote how I started with copywork and dictation. I totally forgot that I started my sons from age 6 with copywork. How could I have missed this vital point. You know, Ben Franklin learned to write by copying the entire newspaper. He was much older too. He was about 17 years old. He would spend hours copying the paper until he was good at it.

 

Never give up copywork and dictation. It is one of the most valuable tools in writing.

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[Robin in DFW]

We've done copywork...off and on...

 

We've done dictation...of and on...

 

He does write narrations from History.

 

We have attempted so many writing programs I can't even remember all of them anymore.

 

He can write decent enough...his narrations are actually more of a "report" on the section he read...he usually writes at least a page...so he's really not doing narrations in the true sense.

 

I have WriteShop to try for this year, but it seems SO complicated with all those checklists. It seems to make the whole process more difficult rather than simplify.

 

Would it be beneficial to get the WWE book and just work from that at his level? Meaning take from the book what would be appropriate for his age, not use the workbooks as those are intended for younger kids???

 

I also have Evan-Moor's "How to Teach Non-Fiction Writing", which simply explains processes and just has the kids write. I also have another book on outlining and one on how to write a paragraph.

 

Maybe these would be better than a full-fledged program like WriteShop???

 

I just don't know anymore. My dd16 writes like it's nothing...it's like breathing for her...no effort whatsoever...

 

PLEASE help me out here...our school year will be starting in a couple of weeks and I want to put writing at the top of our priority list!!!

 

Thanks,

Robin

[EKS]

I didn't insist on much writing either until my son went into fourth grade. We started that year with him dictating to me and then he would copy what I had written down. At the end of the year he was using the keyword outline approach, omitting the dictation step.

[justamouse]

Ok. I've found the missing link for me. This is where I've gone wrong. This is what I've been missing in transitioning from the "It's too hard for boys to write much" stage to the older, "it's time to be writing" phase...

 

SWB does suggest frequent, bite-sized writing assignments. If I'd been doing this all along, I think I'd have avoided my current panicked state.

 

In the second post in this thread JulieOfSardis pasted SWB's "'Nibbled to death by ducks' method of teaching boys to write: You do it EVERY DAY for a short period and yes, eventually they do GET it. "

 

The answer was right there all the time. Oh, well, I hope all my public angst about writing has helped someone else! :blushing:

 

Yes, that's the idea! That's how I worked it with mine.

 

(I had written out this long response, and it bleeped out!) but I'm glad you found that.

[Sahamamama]

So... here my boys are almost 9, going into 4th grade, and I've let them get to this point without insisting that they do much writing at all. Never more than a 4 or 5 sentence paragraph.

 

Just my 2 cents, but I don't see this as problematic for any student -- boy or girl -- who recently finished 3rd grade. ;) Really.

 

IF the student's writing is good "quality" -- that is, if he organizes & summarizes his thoughts well, if he truly grasps and restates the main point(s) of what he has read and is summarizing, if his mechanics, grammar, and spelling are all where they should be for that age (don't expect miracles), then I think a WELL DONE, FREQUENTLY DONE four to five sentence paragraph is a better teaching tool than a longer, but poorly done, infrequently done assignment. HTH.