SWB's MP article on reading: let's talk about a particular aspect of it

[Colleen in NS]

Can we talk about the "homeschooling moms in particular" part, where she talks about how caring more about little things makes us lose our intellectual appetites?

 

And the part about that when you read, you are asserting your worth (who you are vs. what you produce or do) by learning how to handle words properly because words are part of who we are and who we are is created in the image of God?

 

I heard her talk about this in Williamsburg in May, but seeing it in print is making it hit home for me. I guess after almost 12 years of being a SAHM, I am really sick of the "producing" part - the part of my mind that tells me that since I'm a SAHM and a homeschooler, I should make sure all the little things get "done." She is so right when she says that when you make your kitchen clean or when you change a diaper or make a meal, it is more gratifying instantly than reading a book. But wow, do I ever get it now when she says that when my kid is 17 and asking me what I think about something, it would be nice for *me* to be able to chat with him about it!!! Instead of saying something like, "Gee, I don't know, go ask so and so. I've been too busy over the years making meals and organizing cleaning schedules and planning school years to have really thought about that."

 

I get it and I love the idea, but it sure is hard to break out when in my mid to late teens (influential years for me) I was in a church that, um, modeled a different way....I don't want to start a debate about that, but for me, I realize that the whole idea of submissive-wife-who-cooks-cleans-homeschools-hostesses makes me feel worthless (not that dh does this to me - it's the influences I had before that, and some books I've read in my earlier marriage/motherhood, when trying to figure out this whole marriage/mothering thing). Then I worked with YWAM for six years and "found who I was", but I've gotten bogged down again and lost myself.:) Somewhat, anyway. This great article just fans a flame into fire in me again.

 

WE CAN THINK FOR OURSELVES!! WE CAN LEARN FOR OURSELVES!! WE CAN FORM OUR OWN OPINIONS AND EXPRESS THEM NICELY AND CLEARLY!!

 

Anyway, I'm feeling a little cabin feverish, with hardly being able to get out (no second vehicle) and desperately wishing for someone else to talk with about deeper things than the latest specials at the grocery store, or the latest pop-Christian culture book.

 

Oh, I should add that I have talked with dh at various times about all this, and he does share household/childcare chores with me more than he used to. I just still feel the weight of responsibility for them and don't know how to get rid of that feeling. So that I can be free to read/think/talk/write/enjoy my life.

 

I'm sorry, this post doesn't really have a clear path....just wondering if anyone else wants to talk about these particular aspects of her article, as it relates to your own life? If you have a hard time shaking that feeling, what do you think you'll do about it? If you have no problem ditching the "little things" for the deeper reading, how do you do that?? How do you rearrange your thoughts? How do you deal with the practicalities of rearranging your priorities, without sacrificing something else you need (like sleep or grocery money)?

[calandalsmom]

Im not a huge fan of SWB's work for a couple of reasons and i think this may epitomize why.

 

I dont know anyone IRL or even online who is truly so wrapped up in doing that they've lost the ability to think or the desire to go beyond the doing.

 

But I also do not surround myself with the insular christian stereotypes- those who isolate themselves in a like minded community.

 

I also have no problem ditching the little things bc Im lazy physically and Id much rather lie on my bed with a good thought provoking book and mutter mmmhhhmmm to the kids than clean my kitchen or make sure their clothing matches exactly.

[elegantlion]

Hum, interesting observations. I've never been one to get a kick out of cleaning or cooking. I like things that stay done, that's what excites and motivates me. I see those things as a necessary part of life, but it's not my entire life, if that makes sense.

 

I have a creative spirit and my dh is more practical. He enjoys cleaning and sees that as a sign of accomplishment. I've been working on several self-improvement projects, like reading more and writing. While I hope to publish a book one day the writing is for me at this point. I realized recently that writing is just a part of who I am, it's part of my life.

 

I told my dh if he came home and the house was spotless and everything was in its place then I've had a very bad day creatively. It means I didn't read or write, either by choice or circumstance. It also means I'm probably edgy. :D

 

I read Farhenheit 451 earlier this year and it only helped solidify my desire to spend more time reading and educating myself.

 

I also understand about the one car deal. We did that for two years and I thought I might lose my mind during that time. I survived, :grouphug:.

 

I look at it like this. When I am ready to leave this world, housework will still need to be done, dirt happens. However, if I can learn something or write something and pass it on to my ds I will have mattered and left something that will last much longer than an empty kitchen sink.

[Colleen in NS]

Im not a huge fan of SWB's work for a couple of reasons and i think this may epitomize why.

 

I dont know anyone IRL or even online who is truly so wrapped up in doing that they've lost the ability to think or the desire to go beyond the doing.

 

I guess I see the article as being a huge encouragement to people like me who do lean towards the doing rather than the thinking - although I do think more than I used to, and that is in large part because of the WTM book and the authors' articles through the years and this board.

[Colleen in NS]

I also understand about the one car deal. We did that for two years and I thought I might lose my mind during that time. I survived, :grouphug:.

 

 

Thanks for understanding this part.:) We've been a one car family our whole 15 year marriage - and we moved out of the public transportation area almost 5 years ago - ARRRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!! It's really bothering me now, but dh is working on finding a solution....

 

I'll come back later and post more to you - I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Gotta run for now.

[angela in ohio]

I think it is important for this point to be heard.

 

I listened for years to all in the homeschool community who said (loudly) that we need to be more Martha than Martha Stewart in order to be a real homeschooler.

 

Then I remembered that dh married me not for my cooking and cleaning (I didn't know how to do either when he met me,) but because I was smart and interesting and full of life. I still believe in my husband's authority, and I am a submissive wife, but I am a strong intelligent one. It is harder to be this type, because a legalistic list of rules to be a good wife is easy to follow. Finding out what it means to follow *my own husband's lead* is harder, but I think is the point.

 

Praise the Lord for that revelation. I almost didn't get it in time, and dh was bewildered by the woman who cooked and cleaned and cared about minutiae of home life and expected his gratitude for it, when he really just wanted the funny, sassy girl he married back. He didn't want a maid and a cook, he wanted a partner who challenges him intellectually, edits his work, helps him think through problems, etc.

 

I'm looking around at a bunch of frustrated smart homeschool moms I know IRL who have listened to those who value homemaking over thinking, and I see them searching for a way to be heard, and it isn't pretty. They end up bitter or critical or weary. I was getting there a few years ago, and it stunk. I ended up breaking down to dh, crying, "I just don't want to talk to other moms about crockpot meals anymore."

 

We work as a family to keep our home running. We spend the rest of our time on thinking and serving. It works for us. :001_smile:

Edited August 4, 2009 by angela in ohio

[WTMCassandra]

I dont know anyone IRL or even online who is truly so wrapped up in doing that they've lost the ability to think or the desire to go beyond the doing.

 

 

You are very fortunate. I am starved for people who dwell in the realm of ideas and want to discuss them.

 

I enjoy people from all points of view and walks of life who enjoy a rich intellectual life.

 

I have to keep some kind of intellectual pursuit on the side or I go crazy. When the children were little, it was indepth theology and homeschooling, now it's tutoring and homeschooling high school/college. In addition, I like to read novels and nonfiction books recommended on the boards.

[Jami]

That's exactly the dynamic here, Angela!

 

Though my dh is a bit of a foodie and cooking creatively for him goes over big. But that takes my being willing to branch out beyond meat and potatoes and learn new things! But the cleaning and daily house stuff...we just all pitch in and do it when it has to be done. I certainly have NO trouble leaving a messy kitchen to curl up with a good book (blog, MP3, etc.).

 

 

 

I think it is important for this point to be heard.

 

I listened for years to all in the homeschool community who said (loudly) that we need to be more Martha than Martha Stewart in order to be a real homeschooler.

 

Then I remembered that dh married me not for my cooking and cleaning (I didn't know how to do either when he met me,) but because I was smart and interesting and full of life. I still believe in my husband's authority, and I am a submissive wife, but I am a strong intelligent one. It is harder to be this type, because a legalistic list of rules to be a good wife is easy to follow. Finding out what it means to follow *my own husband's lead* is harder, but I think is the point.

 

Praise the Lord for that revelation. I almost didn't get it in time, and dh was bewildered by the woman who cooked and cleaned and cared about minutiae of home life and expected his gratitude for it, when he really just wanted the funny, sassy girl he married back. He didn't want a maid and a cook, he wanted a partner who challenges him intellectually, edits his work, helps him think through problems, etc.

 

I'm looking around at a bunch of frustrated smart homeschool moms I know IRL who have listened to those who value homemaking over thinking, and I see them searching for a way to be heard, and it isn't pretty. They end up bitter or critical or weary. I was getting there a few years ago, and it stunk. I ended up breaking down to dh, crying, "I just don't want to talk to other moms about crockpot meals anymore."

 

We work as a family to keep our home running. We spend the rest of our time on thinking and serving. It works for us. :001_smile:

[WTMCassandra]

We work as a family to keep our home running. We spend the rest of our time on thinking and serving. It works for us. :001_smile:

 

I like this philosophy. I think this is how we tend to operate as well.

[Robin in Tx]

Im not a huge fan of SWB's work for a couple of reasons and i think this may epitomize why.

 

I dont know anyone IRL or even online who is truly so wrapped up in doing that they've lost the ability to think or the desire to go beyond the doing.

 

But I also do not surround myself with the insular christian stereotypes- those who isolate themselves in a like minded community.

 

I also have no problem ditching the little things bc Im lazy physically and Id much rather lie on my bed with a good thought provoking book and mutter mmmhhhmmm to the kids than clean my kitchen or make sure their clothing matches exactly.

 

This seems ironic to me. I would think that this would be a reason why you *would* like SWB more... she's done a remarkable job at making a feminist voice heard amongst "christian stereotype" (i.e. very conservative) homeschoolers. Many of my acquaintances will not send their girls to college because they believe they are preparing their girls to be wives, mothers, and homemakers. There is nothinig wrong with that if that is your conviction, but that sort of "conviction" has a very strong foothold in the Christian homeschooling movement - almost to the point where you feel "odd" and "out of place" if you don't mesh.

 

One of the reasons I admire SWB so much is because of the way she has respectfully fought against this type of stereotyping, and has given people like me an encouraging nudge away from that model. I'd like to think I had it in me to blaze my own trail through the sea of stereotypes, but the brutal truth is without SWB I would probably still be wearing a denim jumper :). She's opened my eyes in many, many ways (not just this area).

 

Maybe you think it's a little silly that anyone would have to tell women that they can let go of their focus on the housework and pursue a rewarding life of the mind (or career or satisfying work/volunteerism), but the fact that she can do so in a way that encourages women in this vein HUGE, especially in the homeschool community. Contrast that to the response Hillary Clinton got when she made the comment about not being the kind of woman who stays home and bakes cookies. It's all in the delivery :). Besides, SWB would probably never underestimate the value of baking cookies :)

 

I think the point is let go of the aesthetics and busy work for appearance's sake and build up the person. Both you and your children. Don't let the busy work get in the way of continued growth and learning (both yours and your children). Model the life long learning habits you want your children to have. Take care of your responsibilities but don't make them your reason for living. Sorta like the epitath "here lies a man who wished he'd spent more time in the office" that is never true. Just because someone thinks that this is a no-brainer does not mean that it shouldn't be said :).

[Rhondabee]

Finding out what it means to follow *my own husband's lead* is harder, but I think is the point.

 

Praise the Lord for that revelation. I almost didn't get it in time, and dh was bewildered by the woman who cooked and cleaned and cared about minutiae of home life and expected his gratitude for it, when he really just wanted the funnrey, sassy girl he married back. He didn't want a maid and a cook, he wanted a partner.... :001_smile:

 

Regarding the 2nd paragraph, yes! I know that while my dh appreciates a clean house more than a messy house, he *doesn't* expect it to be immaculately clean. (Thank goodness!) The one thing I think I do that really irritates him is "cook and clean and care about minutiae of home life and expect his gratitude for it". It reminds of him of his mother!

 

However, please explain more about being "my own husband's lead". I've not heard that expression before.

 

I listened recently to SWB's CD about "Educating Ourselves" (which seems to have many of the same tho'ts that Colleen mentioned). The same week, a friend said something along the lines of a spouse will treat you as badly as you let them. Now, my friend is quite a bit more....brash?...than I am. But, I finally decided to take my dh's advice and just *ask* him, "Will you please...?"

 

Yes, it still makes me mad that I have to ask. But, I've been pleasantly surprised that he will actually help me cheerfully if I just ask! I'm not sure if that's related, or not.

 

Thanks!

[WTMCassandra]

Don't let the busy work get in the way of continued growth and learning (both yours and your children). Model the life long learning habits you want your children to have. Take care of your responsibilities but don't make them your reason for living. Sorta like the epitath "here lies a man who wished he'd spent more time in the office" that is never true. Just because someone thinks that this is a no-brainer does not mean that it shouldn't be said :).

 

Wise words here from Robin (as usual!).

 

What's funny is that I wear denim jumpers and I might not send my daughter *away* to college, but I agree fervently with Robin. I believe that ensuring both my children continue to learn and develop in all possible ways will make them better parents and people.

 

Because I'm trying to prepare my daughter to be a wife and homeschooling mother, that implies more and deeper intellectual training to me, not less!

 

And I am doing my best to model that. I have learning projects ongoing in at least half a dozen areas at the moment.

[dhudson]

I feel the need to add that there is a happy medium here. My house is clean and neat and I make sure that all the details of life happen smoothly but I am also educating myself and read 5 - 10 books a week. (admittedly Don Quixote took me a week or two longer than normal as I was summarizing as I went)

 

I don't think we have to be either/or. Either I am educating myself and my children and my home is an utter and complete wreck or my home is spotlessly clean and I haven't thought a deep thought in years. I think a well-rounded SAHM can do both. Do I get to spend as much time as I want reading? No, but my dh and kids can invite someone over with no notice and I don't have to scramble either.

 

I can also bake bread, cook a meal from scratch, sew a seam and think deep thoughts. My kids help clean and cook which is helpful to me and good training for them. These things all have value, the challenge is to find a balance.

 

I loved SWB's article. A friend ripped it out of her magazine to give to me as she knew I would enjoy it.

[Colleen]

Can we talk about the "homeschooling moms in particular" part, where she talks about how caring more about little things makes us lose our intellectual appetites?

I read the article and it made no particular impression on me. It was rife with generalizations that don't resonate with me, including this notion that caring about the so-called mundane tasks of daily life makes us lose our intellectual appetites. Stuff and nonsense.

 

I dont know anyone IRL or even online who is truly so wrapped up in doing that they've lost the ability to think or the desire to go beyond the doing.

I know plenty of content people who aren't thinkers in any deep sense of the word. They've not lost the ability to "think" (again, in that particular, intellectual sense); rather, they've never cultivated in the first place. On the flip side, I've known my share of "thinkers" who would do well to add tangible productivity to their list of accomplishments. One need not come at the expense of the other.

 

I'm looking around at a bunch of frustrated smart homeschool moms I know IRL who have listened to those who value homemaking over thinking...We work as a family to keep our home running. We spend the rest of our time on thinking and serving.

Again, I don't identify with this tendency to view "thinking" and "doing" as separate entities. Cooking and cleaning, caring for a family, laboring in the fields ~ none of this robs us of our intellect. On the contrary, genuinely working can often be a means of stimulating not only our bodies but our minds.

[Robin in Tx]

My apologies for furthering the stereotype... :). Denim jumpers are actually pretty comfortable. You can be "ultra" conservative (not intending a negative conotation there), but still value learning. That's what the article was about. You don't have to go to college, or be taught by someone else, to learn. Just because a young lady doesn't plan to go to college (or even a young man who decides on a trade) doesn't mean that they can't continue to learn throughout their adulthood. Who says a dairy farmer or auto mechanic can't appreciate Shakespeare? Talk about stereotypes... that's what SWB's article rails again - the cultural notion that there are experts and then there are the hopeless masses (i.e. blue collar or laboring work = redneck).

[calandalsmom]

I read the article and it made no particular impression on me. It was rife with generalizations that don't resonate with me, including this notion that caring about the so-called mundane tasks of daily life makes us lose our intellectual appetites. Stuff and nonsense.

 

I know plenty of content people who aren't thinkers in any deep sense of the word. They've not lost the ability to "think" (again, in that particular, intellectual sense); rather, they've never cultivated in the first place. On the flip side, I've known my share of "thinkers" who would do well to add tangible productivity to their list of accomplishments. One need not come at the expense of the other.

 

Again, I don't identify with this tendency to view "thinking" and "doing" as separate entities. Cooking and cleaning, caring for a family, laboring in the fields ~ none of this robs us of our intellect. On the contrary, genuinely working can often be a means of stimulating not only our bodies but our minds.

 

 

Colleen as always you make good points with style.

[Robin in Tx]

I agree with you, and I think SWB would too. Boy, can she bake, and she does so all the time!!

 

All she really says in the article is if you aren't in the habit of reading 20 minutes a day, give it a try. Do it first thing in the morning before you get busy with other stuff and it gets sidetracked. People say the same thing about devotions and bible study. Do it first thing or else you might get distracted by your day's work. It's just a recommendation for prioritizing continued learning, if you're not already doing so. Don't fall victim to the idea that if you aren't a college graduate then you don't possess the prerequisites to do this. All it takes is a commitment and a little bit of time every day. I really do think that was the main point of the article... although I am j ust as moved by the premise that we (as a society) often look to "authorities" and "experts" to tell us what is best and what to do, and that we don't exercise our own ability to evaluate and judge for ourselves because (partly because often we don't trust our ability to do so).

[Carol in Cal.]

Can we talk about the "homeschooling moms in particular" part, where she talks about how caring more about little things makes us lose our intellectual appetites?

 

And the part about that when you read, you are asserting your worth (who you are vs. what you produce or do) by learning how to handle words properly because words are part of who we are and who we are is created in the image of God?

 

WE CAN THINK FOR OURSELVES!! WE CAN LEARN FOR OURSELVES!! WE CAN FORM OUR OWN OPINIONS AND EXPRESS THEM NICELY AND CLEARLY!!

 

I'm sorry, this post doesn't really have a clear path....just wondering if anyone else wants to talk about these particular aspects of her article, as it relates to your own life? If you have a hard time shaking that feeling, what do you think you'll do about it? If you have no problem ditching the "little things" for the deeper reading, how do you do that?? How do you rearrange your thoughts? How do you deal with the practicalities of rearranging your priorities, without sacrificing something else you need (like sleep or grocery money)?

 

But it doesn't resonate for me in the same way that it does for you, Colleen. I think that my tendency is to read 'lightly' and/or 'currently' rather than reading the great books--not to go and do housework instead. And the tendency to read those books is because they make me think and give me pleasure or a sense of satisfaction.

 

Every time I look at TWEM, I shudder. I just don't want to read Don Quixote. I hate that book. I have started it over and over. It gives me no pleasure or satisfaction.

 

I don't feel guilty about having a less than perfect home. Even when I was not working fulltime and homeschooling, I had a nice home but not a perfect one. I know people who were raised the way you're mentioning, Colleen, and it's really, really hard to shake; but I was raised by someone who absolutely hated housework and cooking and found housework demeaning--so my issue is that it's hard for me to get around feeling put upon at ever being expected to do housework (and that's not right of me either). (I do like to cook, though. A lot!) I was never taught that this was my job--more that this was something that you might get stuck with if you weren't vigilant/educated/careful. A very negative POV that I do work at changing.

 

Now that I'm working fulltime, and homeschooling, frankly, I'm mad at my DH most of the time for not stepping in and doing more (or any) housework. You could pray for us if you feel so inclined:). I don't feel guilty for not doing it. No one could possibly do more than I do. I can't really do all that I do. So, right now, and for the last few years, yes, mad, not guilty. That would be me.

 

Just want to add that you have always always struck me as a clear, effective thinker. Intelligent AND nice. I'm glad that SWB has given you some food for thought, and I think that you're further down the path toward being pretty intellectual than you give yourself credit for.

[Colleen]

Many of my acquaintances will not send their girls to college because they believe they are preparing their girls to be wives, mothers, and homemakers. There is nothinig wrong with that if that is your conviction, but that sort of "conviction" has a very strong foothold in the Christian homeschooling movement - almost to the point where you feel "odd" and "out of place" if you don't mesh.

That's not my perception. In my experience, any attempt to stereotype homeschoolers is time wasted.

One of the reasons I admire SWB so much is because of the way she has respectfully fought against this type of stereotyping

Agreed! But it seems to me she perpetuated a stereotype by implying daily preoccupations of home and family drain us of our intellectual appetites.

(T)he brutal truth is without SWB I would probably still be wearing a denim jumper :).

Perhaps this is why her words didn't ring true for me. I don't identify with this mindset, this en masse, mindless behavior.

I think the point is let go of the aesthetics and busy work for appearance's sake and build up the person. Both you and your children. Don't let the busy work get in the way of continued growth and learning (both yours and your children). Model the life long learning habits you want your children to have. Take care of your responsibilities but don't make them your reason for living.

Yes, agreed. Again, though, it's all about balance.

 

Btw, nice to see you, Robin. I'm rarely here any more, so it's a treat to cross paths with you this day.:)

[Robin in Tx]

Good to see you too, Colleen!

 

Actually, I don't think she was saying that mundane tasks drain us of our intellectual appetites. I think she was saying that some people get so busy with their daily tasks that they don't take the time, or that they don't believe they can do it. I am definitely seeing a trend here... those who have no idea what it is like to be in the midst of a particular mindset have no idea what it's like to hear encouragement to move beyond it. Obviously, people like you were not her intended target, for which I am sure you feel very fortunate!

 

I think this is the first time I've posted on the general in months! I've enjoyed this week of catching up wtih all my imaginary friends! :)

[Jayne J]

I want to jump in quickly here, and add my .02$ Recently, on these boards, a poster asked about how hsers make it all work--how much, or if, spouses helped with school/house, and mentioned that she had read something stating that when you add hsing onto your load, something has got to give. (I'm in a bit of a rush, but I'll come back and search for the original post later.)

Many or most of the responders stated that their (mostly)dHs did nothing but fund the enterprise. (myself included, in the interests of tranparency...) But it got me to thinking a bit. If you are teaching your children and running a home almost exclusively alone, something DOES have to give and generally it is your own pursuits. The tyranny of the urgent--if I don't do laundry, we go naked, but if I don't read Herodotus, well, nothing much happens right now. It is not, I don't think, that we feel FULFILLED by the laundry, nor do we want not to think, but it certainly has less blow back in the immediate future if we do laundry/make dinner/do the shopping. And to be honest, we are probably more rewarded by others for doing those immediate things--if not our spouses than our in-laws, neighbors, parents, society at large. Not, again, that their approval is or should be our goal, but boy it feels nice... Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, but the upshot is, sometimes it is easier to do what we do not want to do, and not to do what we do want to do. (I studied writing from St. Paul...:D)

[WTMCassandra]

No problem, Robin. We now have found a church that is both conservative and a "thinking" church, but I grant you that those can be hard to find. In addition, the homeschool speaker I used to work for is very deliberate about encouraging Christian moms to be theologians and scholars to better further their own souls and teach their children.

 

Yes, valuing learning is the principle!

[Carrie12345]

I love the article and the idea, but I'm not sure how to change things yet.

 

It isn't so much that I put cooking and cleaning first (trust me, I don't!). I just have a serious lack of quiet time. Plenty of free time, but no peace to really dig into something complex.

 

Maybe it's the ADD, but I find how-to books relatively easy to read amidst the chaos, while fiction has become nearly impossible. For instance, I've read The Well-Educated Mind, but Don Quixote is collecting dust. Facts will stick in my head. Abstract new ideas will not.

 

Between the layout of our small house, the ages of my kids, and the hour at which the dogs insist upon waking everyone, there's just little chance for me to focus on good books these days. :glare:

[LibraryLover]

Where is this article?

 

I should read it before I comment, but here's one thought. I know some folks who have said to me that they haven't had time to read anything since they had kids. I've not been able to relate to that as I do prioritize reading over cleaning. When they were babies, a did a lot of reading while nursing, esp with the first. :tongue_smilie: Lemme grab some water, put up my feet: nurse away, son. One can do lots of reading & thinking during long nursing sessions & growth spurts.

 

Through 4 babies, I have never short-changed myself in the book department. My fav walking destination in nice weather when I had small children was the library. I'd often time naps for the jogging stroller, and that bought me at least an hour of peace at the library. It also gave me time to exercise. It's amazing how long my two middle babes (15 mos aprt in age) slept in that jogger. Best money I even spent.

 

I was never one to spend baby nap times cleaning. Although I have done that as well, many times.

[Colleen]

I don't think she was saying that mundane tasks drain us of our intellectual appetites. I think she was saying that some people get so busy with their daily tasks that they don't take the time, or that they don't believe they can do it.

Yes, she was also saying this, but she specifically noted (actually, referenced someone else who noted) that "the contemplation of little things puts us in danger of losing our intellectual appetite".

 

I would argue that "the little things" may or may not be at odds with intellectual stimulation. Watching (fill in the blank with mindless television program of your choice), for me, is on a whole 'nother plane than, say, planting lettuce seeds. The former requires little to no engagement on my part; the latter is a process with which I'm distinctly involved. One may argue, "But what about washing dishes? Now that's mindless!" Yes and no. Again, it's a little thing (well, not so little for those of us who don't own a dishwasher;)), but it's an act with a purpose ~ and one that allows me to think (more or less).

 

My point is just this: Many little things are above belittling and need not rob us of our thirst for the intellectual.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Colleen

[WTMCassandra]

I want to jump in quickly here, and add my .02$ Recently, on these boards, a poster asked about how hsers make it all work--how much, or if, spouses helped with school/house, and mentioned that she had read something stating that when you add hsing onto your load, something has got to give. (I'm in a bit of a rush, but I'll come back and search for the original post later.)

Many or most of the responders stated that their (mostly)dHs did nothing but fund the enterprise. (myself included, in the interests of tranparency...) But it got me to thinking a bit. If you are teaching your children and running a home almost exclusively alone, something DOES have to give and generally it is your own pursuits. The tyranny of the urgent--if I don't do laundry, we go naked, but if I don't read Herodotus, well, nothing much happens right now. It is not, I don't think, that we feel FULFILLED by the laundry, nor do we want not to think, but it certainly has less blow back in the immediate future if we do laundry/make dinner/do the shopping. And to be honest, we are probably more rewarded by others for doing those immediate things--if not our spouses than our in-laws, neighbors, parents, society at large. Not, again, that their approval is or should be our goal, but boy it feels nice... Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, but the upshot is, sometimes it is easier to do what we do not want to do, and not to do what we do want to do. (I studied writing from St. Paul...:D)

 

Yes, tyranny of the urgent is the problem, I think. And it does take fortitude to force oneself to sit down with something very mentally challenging when you are tired/worn out from petty, urgent stuff.

[LibraryLover]

I can understand that. I remember being hugely pregnant in those last days, &/or postpartum and not wanting to tackle certain dark or in-depth ideas. I first discovered Nora Roberts during my last pregnancy. :001_smile::p

 

 

Of course, all of my children have read HP (well, the 10 yr old is only on book 6) and my 16 has read Twilight.

 

I might not be the best person to comment on your post. Heh.

 

I love the article and the idea, but I'm not sure how to change things yet.

 

It isn't so much that I put cooking and cleaning first (trust me, I don't!). I just have a serious lack of quiet time. Plenty of free time, but no peace to really dig into something complex.

 

Maybe it's the ADD, but I find how-to books relatively easy to read amidst the chaos, while fiction has become nearly impossible. For instance, I've read The Well-Educated Mind, but Don Quixote is collecting dust. Facts will stick in my head. Abstract new ideas will not.

 

Between the layout of our small house, the ages of my kids, and the hour at which the dogs insist upon waking everyone, there's just little chance for me to focus on good books these days. :glare:

Edited August 5, 2009 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

I actually enjoyed the little things of motherhood. I believe the attention to such things during early childhood has given me a personal and human depth I wouldn't have otherwise.

[Caraway]

I want to jump in quickly here, and add my .02$ Recently, on these boards, a poster asked about how hsers make it all work--how much, or if, spouses helped with school/house, and mentioned that she had read something stating that when you add hsing onto your load, something has got to give. (I'm in a bit of a rush, but I'll come back and search for the original post later.)

Many or most of the responders stated that their (mostly)dHs did nothing but fund the enterprise. (myself included, in the interests of tranparency...) But it got me to thinking a bit. If you are teaching your children and running a home almost exclusively alone, something DOES have to give and generally it is your own pursuits. The tyranny of the urgent--if I don't do laundry, we go naked, but if I don't read Herodotus, well, nothing much happens right now. It is not, I don't think, that we feel FULFILLED by the laundry, nor do we want not to think, but it certainly has less blow back in the immediate future if we do laundry/make dinner/do the shopping. And to be honest, we are probably more rewarded by others for doing those immediate things--if not our spouses than our in-laws, neighbors, parents, society at large. Not, again, that their approval is or should be our goal, but boy it feels nice... Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, but the upshot is, sometimes it is easier to do what we do not want to do, and not to do what we do want to do. (I studied writing from St. Paul...:D)

 

:iagree:

 

I certainly ignore plenty of housework tasks, but it is never quiet around here. Reading Moby Dick while game pieces fly over my head is not exactly rewarding. Also, someone has to do all those undesirable tasks. If you are the only one doing them, even if you do a poor/speedy job, the time still all adds up.

 

Sometimes I wonder about what my kids will remember later... and I'm not really sure that I want our household legacy to be that there were never enough clean underwear and dinner always came out of a box.

 

I also lack a sense that anyone (now, in the moment) cares. If I turned to my friend, while we strolled around the zoo, and asked what she thought of the symbolism in Don Quixote she would think I had lost my mind.

 

I often wonder what the difference is between SWB and myself. Is it that she is more efficient? more intelligent? determined? she has help from her husband and her mother? her kids are older? How is she getting it all done?????

[Jayne J]

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117424

 

Here is the thread I referred to above. If we pride ourselves on doing it all, with no help, something will fall by the wayside, and it is likely to be our own interests and needs. Just sayin'....

[Colleen]

 

I often wonder what the difference is between SWB and myself. Is it that she is more efficient? more intelligent? determined? she has help from her husband and her mother? her kids are older? How is she getting it all done?????

She isn't getting it all done, as she herself is the first to admit. And yes, having an involved husband and parents ~ parents who live right next door, no less ~ is beyond helpful, I'm sure. Don't get me wrong. I absolutely believe SWB is highly intelligent, determined, and efficient, but it's downright silly to assume that anyone, ever, is "doing it all". And while it's worthwhile to get pointers from others, comparing yourself such that you feel lesser-than serves no good purpose.

 

[ladydusk]

Where is this article?

 

It was in the new Memoria Press Catalog and is available online here.

[i.love.lucy]

This is an interesting thread for me because I am still pretty new to hs'ing and those new friends that have come along with it. I feel MORE pressure now that I'm hs'ing to do. it. all. Educate the kids, keep the home, manage the bills, manage our lives (shopping, errands, playdates, field trips, vacations, outside family responsibilities), stay on top of current events, be intellectual and theological, be a sexy wife, have time for friends, the list goes on and on and on.

 

And I do get bogged down in the "tyranny of the urgent" and often feel like no one notices. If I put tons of pressure on myself to keep the house better for a few days, then I have forgotten the laundry and dh has no undershirts. If I focus on laundry and cooking then suddenly the floors are disgusting. I have struggled and struggled to find a schedule for this fall that will help us stay on top of this stuff so that I do create for myself some time to read or watch a movie or visit the board, whatever.

 

I did agree so much with Angela's post about dh wondering what happened to that fun and sassy girl he married. That girl didn't have so much on her plate! I'd like to find that girl again myself!

[Robin in Tx]

"the contemplation of little things puts us in danger of losing our intellectual appetite".

 

You know, part of me agrees with this. But I don't consider "little things" to be just ordinary housework. There are a lot of things we probably shouldn't spend our time contemplating.

 

But then again, I think the same can be said vice versa.

 

Bottom line, I don't think she presented as an either/or proposition. I doubt she intended to convince anyone *not* to do their dishes. :)

[Rosie_0801]

C If you have no problem ditching the "little things" for the deeper reading, how do you do that?? How do you rearrange your thoughts? How do you deal with the practicalities of rearranging your priorities, without sacrificing something else you need (like sleep or grocery money)?

 

Honestly? I neglect my kids. Neglect is a relative term, I suppose. To make it sound nice I could say I encourage independence. Truth is, I leave them to do their thing as much as I can. I'd like to spend more time with them because I feel unbalanced with it, but dh and I would rather I ignored them a bit more than we'd like so I have time for a bit of intellectualism than ditch that and go stark raving mad. Basically, my sanity takes priority because everything would be worse if I wasn't! I'm hoping life will go back into balance once the boy gets mobile. I was a much better mother in dd's first year. I read stories, chatted about stuff and still got enough intellectual time while she did her own thing. I don't know if environment has made her an independent type or she would have been anyway, probably both, but it worked well for us. I got enough intellectual time that I could be properly and ungrudgingly available when she wanted me.

Quite how far I've strayed from that working model was really highlighted to me the other day. We went down the street and dh took the baby off to do the shopping while dd and I went to the library. As soon as they left, I went back to my pre 2nd child level of patience and was plodding along with her, chatting about this and that. It was like flipping a switch.

Ds is 6 months old now, so it shouldn't be too much longer before he gets mobile and less dependent on my for entertainment. I think that'll leave room for me to be the sort of Mamma I want to and ought to be, and might even leave up enough space for a bit of housewifery! It sucks, the way it is atm, but I guess it's just how this season of life is. Of course I'm making a mental note to be available to my kids when they are having their own because I'm sure it needn't be quite so much like this...

 

Im not a huge fan of SWB's work for a couple of reasons and i think this may epitomize why.

I dont know anyone IRL or even online who is truly so wrapped up in doing that they've lost the ability to think or the desire to go beyond the doing.

But I also do not surround myself with the insular christian stereotypes- those who isolate themselves in a like minded community.

.

Well I have and I'm not part of any insular Christian stereotypical anythings. Seeing women who look as vibrant as a kids painting after they've upended the wash water over it is what makes me place such a high priority on my own needs. My kids aren't entitled to a perfect childhood, but my hubby is entitled to a functioning spouse!

 

Rosie

[Colleen in NS]

I like things that stay done, that's what excites and motivates me. I see those things as a necessary part of life, but it's not my entire life, if that makes sense.

 

I love the bolded part!! Things that "stay done" - hmmm, like the notes I took from reading a book, the ideas that stuck with me, the list of facts that I've gotten a good head start on writing for myself from the KF book - those all stay done, whereas the dishes and meals and laundry always need to be redone. Yes, you make sense.

 

frustrated smart homeschool moms I know IRL who have listened to those who value homemaking over thinking, and I see them searching for a way to be heard, and it isn't pretty. They end up bitter or critical or weary.

 

Weary would describe me right now. I can organize chores/meals/school/social life/etc. with the best of them, but sometimes I want to chuck it all out the door and just do what makes me/us fulfilled, whether it's spend days just reading, exploring, writing, talking about deeper things, etc.. OF COURSE practical things have to get done and money has to be earned, but I'm just so tired of the idea that if I just "do" things a certain way, I'm a "successful" person/Mom/wife/homeschooler.

 

I enjoy people from all points of view and walks of life who enjoy a rich intellectual life.

 

Me, too. When I worked with YWAM (Youth With A Mission, an international Christian missions organization) in the late 80s/early 90s, I had friends from all over the world and boy, do I ever miss that. You sure get lots of different perspective on things by talking to people from various countries.

 

One of the reasons I admire SWB so much is because of the way she has respectfully fought against this type of stereotyping, and has given people like me an encouraging nudge away from that model.

 

Me, too, and I need to hear it over and over.

 

But, I finally decided to take my dh's advice and just *ask* him, "Will you please...?"

 

Yes, it still makes me mad that I have to ask. But, I've been pleasantly surprised that he will actually help me cheerfully if I just ask!

 

I've added a little twist to this, in that I have tried to make myself think, "This is OUR home, these are OUR children, and WE are responsible to make it all happen." So I try to word things this way when talking with dh.

 

When we first got married, before we had kids, and even somewhat when I was in the baby/toddler stage, I *could* still do the "traditional" thing that I thought I was supposed to and thought I would like to do. But I just can't anymore. Gee, when my kids were babies, I could spend two hours in the afternoons sleeping and reading while they slept - now, my to do list is never ending, so I always feel I *should* be doing something from it, and half of it is pure drudgery to me.

 

this notion that caring about the so-called mundane tasks of daily life makes us lose our intellectual appetites.

 

"the contemplation of little things puts us in danger of losing our intellectual appetite"

 

I wanted to quote this part originally, but I'm not up on the legalities of quoting from an article...anyway...

 

It says puts us in danger, it doesn't say that it *makes* us lose our intellectual appetites - I understood from the article that it may or may not happen. I took it as a welcome caution, to me who sees myself in danger of losing my intellectual curiosity if I keep tending to the revolving tasks to the exclusion of reading and thinking. I do think while I'm washing dishes or cooking or whatever, but it's usually broken thoughts - that is frustrating to me, esp. if I don't get concentrated time to read and think and talk.

 

I know people who were raised the way you're mentioning, Colleen, and it's really, really hard to shake; but I was raised by someone who absolutely hated housework and cooking and found housework demeaning--so my issue is that it's hard for me to get around feeling put upon at ever being expected to do housework (and that's not right of me either). (I do like to cook, though. A lot!) I was never taught that this was my job--more that this was something that you might get stuck with if you weren't vigilant/educated/careful. A very negative POV that I do work at changing.

 

Just want to add that you have always always struck me as a clear, effective thinker. Intelligent AND nice. I'm glad that SWB has given you some food for thought, and I think that you're further down the path toward being pretty intellectual than you give yourself credit for.

 

The funny thing is, I was raised by a mother who also seemed to detest housework and cooking - she taught elementary school full time and raised 5 kids by herself, so you can imagine why. We all had to do chores every Saturday and tag along while she did the dreaded grocery shopping, we had to learn to slap some chicken pieces in the oven along with some potatoes, and nuke some peas to "cook supper." I guess when I was in the "influential church" from 16-20, I absorbed ideas of how my life could be different. HA! 21 years later, I am just tired out from that type of thinking. Just let me get a bigger perspective in life besides this set of Bible verses that I am "supposed" to apply in my daily life.

 

Thank you, Carol, for the kind compliment. That means a lot to me.

 

If you are teaching your children and running a home almost exclusively alone, something DOES have to give and generally it is your own pursuits. The tyranny of the urgent

 

This is my mindset that I want to change.

 

I love the article and the idea, but I'm not sure how to change things yet.

 

If you come up with anything, let me know!:)

 

If I turned to my friend, while we strolled around the zoo, and asked what she thought of the symbolism in Don Quixote she would think I had lost my mind.

 

I often wonder what the difference is between SWB and myself. Is it that she is more efficient? more intelligent? determined? she has help from her husband and her mother? her kids are older? How is she getting it all done?????

 

She doesn't do it all herself or even within her own family. She has written a post or two in the past about that. Very interesting. It made me see that we have choices in how we set up our lives to do the things we want to/feel called to do.

 

There *must* to be new friends out there yet to be made, or current friends with whom maybe we haven't made that deeper intellectual connection yet - mustn't there?? I just don't get out enough to find out.

 

It was in the new Memoria Press Catalog and is available online here.

 

Thanks for linking, I should have thought of that.

 

This is an interesting thread for me because I am still pretty new to hs'ing and those new friends that have come along with it. I feel MORE pressure now that I'm hs'ing to do. it. all.

 

I have struggled and struggled to find a schedule for this fall that will help us stay on top of this stuff so that I do create for myself some time to read or watch a movie or visit the board, whatever.

 

I'm so weary of tweaking schedules to accomodate everything and everyone. This tweaking is one of the things that falls under "tyranny of the urgent" even though supposedly it is to help me eliminate that.

 

Now, I'm going to hit post reply, and go reread my OP, so I can see if I've come up with any more thoughts after reading all of your wonderful posts!

[Colleen in NS]

To make it sound nice I could say I encourage independence.

 

I got enough intellectual time that I could be properly and ungrudgingly available when she wanted me.

 

I spent so much time making that long response that I didn't see yours.

 

I hear what you are saying. I think I'm caught between a rock and a hard place right now - feeling desperate from some regular down time (even with the kids' two hour naptimes each afternoon, I still feel tense, knowing that ds most likely is dawdling with finishing his math or whatever and I'll *still* have to deal with that at 3 p.m. AND shepherd him through his writing AND TRY to get us out for exercise before I have to cook supper and do the evening routine single-handed (dh doesn't come home til later).

 

and :lol::lol: about nicely saying "encouraging independence." I hear ya!

[Colleen in NS]

And the part about that when you read, you are asserting your worth (who you are vs. what you produce or do) by learning how to handle words properly because words are part of who we are and who we are is created in the image of God?

 

So, what has anyone to say about this part?

[Jayne J]

I am not sure how relevant this may be to your situation Colleen, but when I was experiencing something similar (Pretty Plastic Syndrome, wherein I had to do it all, perfectly, frugally, sweetly and wearing a freshly laundered skirt) I realized that all of the influences I surrounded myself with encouraged my behavior, everything from friends to magazines and blogs, to leisure reading. I had surrounded myself with people who valued the very thing I was coming to question, and so I felt even more alienated and alone.

Maybe trying something new, even just a magazine or book, might help. I stopped reading/participating in the activities that fed my anger and confusion and moved toward something else, no matter how haltingly. Blogs were a HUGE problem for me--just about every favorite I had bookmarked encouraged my PPS (Pretty Plastic Syndrome) I deleted them all, cancelled subscription to homemaking and homeschool magazines that aided and abetted my PPS, and reached out to all the things I missed from when I was a free young thang--art and writing blogs, magazines on creativity and the arts, books of peotry. It is amazing how just a very little time each day devoted to something completely impractical from a housekeeping/homeschooling/marriage/child-rearing point of view could completely revitalize me. (Just me. It didn't make me more effective, more scheduled or a better manager of my home. Just a better person.)

 

Finding time to tackle the major works of literature may not be feasible right now, but one article on poetry or one chapter of a book about your passion, one blog that values the same things you really do, or want to, well, it helped me feel more human and less plastic.

 

FWIW...;)

[LibraryLover]

It was in the new Memoria Press Catalog and is available online here.

 

Thank you for that link.

 

The questions she puts forth are questions our family contemplates together often. The Hitler /Hate question is nearly a weekly discussion. Sadly.

 

However, I appreciate & respect the little things. I am a better person because of them. To appreciate the blood and puke of life is to be fully human. I really don't think this is an Either Or thing.

Edited August 5, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Colleen in NS]

I am not sure how relevant this may be to your situation Colleen, but when I was experiencing something similar (Pretty Plastic Syndrome, wherein I had to do it all, perfectly, frugally, sweetly and wearing a freshly laundered skirt) I realized that all of the influences I surrounded myself with encouraged my behavior, everything from friends to magazines and blogs, to leisure reading. I had surrounded myself with people who valued the very thing I was coming to question, and so I felt even more alienated and alone.

Maybe trying something new, even just a magazine or book, might help. I stopped reading/participating in the activities that fed my anger and confusion and moved toward something else, no matter how haltingly. Blogs were a HUGE problem for me--just about every favorite I had bookmarked encouraged my PPS (Pretty Plastic Syndrome) I deleted them all, cancelled subscription to homemaking and homeschool magazines that aided and abetted my PPS, and reached out to all the things I missed from when I was a free young thang--art and writing blogs, magazines on creativity and the arts, books of peotry. It is amazing how just a very little time each day devoted to something completely impractical from a housekeeping/homeschooling/marriage/child-rearing point of view could completely revitalize me. (Just me. It didn't make me more effective, more scheduled or a better manager of my home. Just a better person.)

 

Finding time to tackle the major works of literature may not be feasible right now, but one article on poetry or one chapter of a book about your passion, one blog that values the same things you really do, or want to, well, it helped me feel more human and less plastic.

 

FWIW...;)

 

:lol::lol: about the PPS!!! I can totally relate to most of what you wrote!

 

Oh my goodness, an old friend of mine from that "influential church" found me on Facebook a couple of weeks ago - she was PPS back then, but after a 3 hour FB chat, I found out she is NOT anymore. It was so refreshing to see her as a real person, and all her flaws and failings as a mother/wife for the past 20 years. Boy, is she ever real and deep now. We both laughed and laughed at our computers for three hours!!!!

 

I did pick up several of my kids' library books this past weekend - one was about Copernicus, and the other was about Galileo. I had also read somewhere else recently about how Copernicus' and Galileo's thinkings about the earth, etc. were such HUGE events in their times, and it was fun reading more about that and thinking about why they were so scared to make their thoughts be known. Not great books, but making a bit of progress in reading. :) I then performed some visual experiments for myself in the van on the way to church Sunday morning - experiments I had read about in those two books, about how they thought planets moved. It was very cool to me, and I proceeded to explain it all to dh. I think he was somewhat impressed. He doesn't think about those things except when I bring them up. I think he's impressed that I *do* think about "unusual" things. Which apparently, in Copernicus' time, *were* usual.

 

However, I appreciate & respect the little things. I am a better person because of them. To appreciate the blood and puke of life is to be fully human. I really don't think this is an Either Or thing.

 

Me, too. I just need to be pointed back to the "being" in addition to the "doing" every so often.

[Rosie_0801]

Plenty of free time, but no peace to really dig into something complex.

Maybe it's the ADD, but I find how-to books relatively easy to read amidst the chaos, while fiction has become nearly impossible. For instance, I've read The Well-Educated Mind, but Don Quixote is collecting dust. Facts will stick in my head. Abstract new ideas will not.

 

I don't think it's the ADD :) I've read the Well Educated Mind, but Anna Karenina went back to the library with me having read only two pages. I really enjoyed those two pages, but that book was not meant to be read one page a day. That was meant to be read hour by hour in the bath with a punnet of strawberries as my only company.

I figure this is the season for collecting new ideas and thinking about them; and talking about them if I can find someone to listen :D I can read, think and talk with my arms full of baby, but the actual doing will have to wait until the baby has grown big enough to have other places to be. Anna Karenina will wait at the library for me, so for now I will contemplate grey water systems and research medieval Lenten recipes. When the baby has grown, I will build the grey water system and actually cook the recipes. "Food Not Lawns" might not be a 'Great Book' but it gave me some new ideas to think about. Agatha Christie may not make it onto the greatest authors of all time either, but I'd never read murder mysteries that I'd enjoyed, so they were a new discovery. :) And think what an idiot I'd feel if someone said "You've never read Agatha Christie? And you call yourself a reader!" Heheh.

 

Originally Posted by Colleen in NS

And the part about that when you read, you are asserting your worth (who you are vs. what you produce or do) by learning how to handle words properly because words are part of who we are and who we are is created in the image of God?

 

So, what has anyone to say about this part?

 

Ok, so the God bit doesn't apply directly but yes I do have something to say about that part :) I read a few months ago that the average person knows about 10,000 words, but only uses about two thousand in every day life, and the English language has something like 150,000 words. Don't quote me on the numbers, but taking the idea behind it, ouch! Learning a second language did dreadful things for my English vocabulary (so did having kids, er, where did those little grey cells go? I used to have more, I'm sure of it!) I can read uni level linguistics papers with few problems, but can I use more than two thousand words in my every day life? I'm not willing to survey myself, but I'll bet I don't. Worse, I'll bet I can't. I've also noticed that dh's language use has become worse while I've known him, and it's rather embarassing to think that's probably my influence.

I'm not sure how to improve my language production. Part of the trouble is having no one around who uses a higher level of language than I do. (I'm not talking about domain specific vocab like dh's programming talk.) The other part is I have to function on 7 hours of broken sleep per night so brain power is in short supply. I suppose time will solve both of those issues, and for now I'm memorising poetry. I'm not sure if that is going to help, but I'm feeling proud of myself :) I guess memory work is laying foundations for being able to absorb more vocab.

 

From urpedonmommy:

It is amazing how just a very little time each day devoted to something completely impractical from a housekeeping/homeschooling/marriage/child-rearing point of view could completely revitalize me. (Just me. It didn't make me more effective, more scheduled or a better manager of my home. Just a better person.)

I've seen enough to know this is entirely practical for marriage. My husband doesn't care about heirloom seeds but he'd rather hear about that at the end of the day than what I found under the couch cushions!!

 

Rosie

 

Edit: Just because I like reading my own thoughts on the screen, you know... I'm wondering about the part of the article where SWB talks about people not wanting to enter into dialogue. I know I avoid talking about anything deeper than the weather with a few of my relatives because I don't know their stance on whatever issue. Disagreeing with these people causes offense. It's not the manner in which I disagree, it's that I disagree. I will either get shouted at for being bossy and trying to inflict my pov on everyone else, or I'll be told that we'll have to agree to disagree so there's nothing to discuss. Maybe people don't discuss issues because they don't know if it's allowed?

Edited August 5, 2009 by Rosie_0801

[Marylou]

Love, love love this thread. Great responses. Too many to quote, so I won't.

 

Will just say--

 

1) some of my best thinking, praying, decision making happens at the kitchen sink (or over the stove eating a freshly baked oatmeal cookie).

 

2) even if we could afford a full-time maid to do the mundane I wouldn't do it; hard work is good for the soul (and mind :001_smile:) Not to mention a good example for the dc

 

3) even a bookworm finds it hard to "get into" a great read when there's a pile of clutter on the counter, or in the sink (and I've heard that it's a constant struggle [the mess] until the kids leave home :001_huh:)

 

Good article, good discussion

[Peela]

I love the spirit of the article. I dont think there need to be any conflict between the "little things" and the "big things"- its just that letting one get crowded out by the other, leaves one rather unfulfilled and basically, we are capable of much more. I love what she is pointing to- lets take our power back from institutionalised learning, and learn to think for ourselves. I think the world could do with a huge dose of that right now!

There are also seasons. I remember when my kids were little I was studying a chemistry (and biochemiostry) textbook as part of my naturopathy diploma...by correspondence. It was incredibly difficult because at that stage, having babies, my brain really felt like it turned to mush. I am sure its a hormonal thing. But it really made me feel good to work my way through this huge textbook, anyway.But I did feel I was going against the flow of what my body wanted to do.

Once the kids were a bit older, I got my brains back. I never stopped reading though.

[kalanamak]

You are very fortunate. I am starved for people who dwell in the realm of ideas and want to discuss them.

 

.

 

I remember one particularly depressing day at work when a PhD psychologist, whose kids were in college, and who had worked for the last 20 years, and two bright, fun MSW's and I were discussing something. After a minute or so, one brought up some spin-off that had to do with the "hit TV show" of that month, and the three lit up and started yabbling and so and so and his mother, etc. Four professional women, and the conversation went on for a minute before TV took over.

 

There is a janitoress, however, who has read everything. Her emotional issues have kept her in her job class, and she has days it is better to let her mop and not talk, but when she is "okay" inside, I have yet to bring up a book, and esoteric dish, a place, she is not familar with.

 

I am lucky to work with a lot of people from overseas. I know several Russians, Finns, Danish, Irish, etc. with a good background, who love to dredge up the German for "owl" out of their memory, or rack their brains for the name of that wonderful S. Maugham story about the man who spends all his annuity on Capri, and is ends up homeless. Since I work in such an international environment, one of my favourite games is to look at the handwriting before the signature, and try to guess where they learned to write. Sort of visual accents. I have gotten others hooked on this. It really is delightful.

 

And yet I clean kitchens and fuss over the recycling, and correct my son's grammar for the millionth time, and remember we need socks when I see a sale. The minutiae of parenting that is the last rack my brain has been stretched on, and I maintain one can do it, and still look far. It is a matter of what one values. Just today I was discussing the amount of firebombing the US did on Japan. Until I saw the Fog of War I was not aware of how many cities were bombed, as Hiroshima and Nagasaki do overshadow the rest of the war effort on mainland Japan. A nurse passing thought interrupted with "They deserved it for bombing Pearl Harbor" in a rather angry tone. After she left, I looked at the man I was speaking to and said, sotto voce, "and discussing one's limitations in history, and how they are overcome must necessarily amount to anti-Americanism?" and he nodded with a smile and we went on with our discussion. To me, to him (he is a HSing dad, BTW) we were discussing knowledge dispassionately. To her, anything but condemnation was anti-American, and even knowing too much about something may be too much like forgiving. It is a matter of what one values.

[MamaSheep]

I'm finding this thread fascinating to read through, especially today. In our church the women's organization does something called "visiting teaching" in which we are assigned, in pairs, to visit one another each month to deliver a spiritual message and to see if any help is needed. (It's such a blessing in so many ways, one of which for me is that it gives me the opportunity and incentive to get out of my own little bubble at home and makes me go out and socialize a little with people in other circumstances and with other opinions and viewpoints. It's really quite refreshing and educational.)

 

The point being, today I went on one of these visits, and it was my turn to do the "message". The topic is printed in the church's monthly magazine along with supporting quotes and scriptures, and we just pull from there whatever seems most useful to the woman we're visiting, along with whatever personal observations and experiences seem appropriate. It's short and sweet, and no big deal. Anyway, this month's topic for the message, that should be being discussed among the women of the church all over the world, is "Seek Education and Lifelong Learning". Some the quotes were:

President Henry B. Eyring, First Counselor in the First Presidency: “We will have to make some hard choices of how we use our time. … But remember, you are interested in education, not just for mortal life but for eternal life. When you see that reality clearly with spiritual sight, you will put spiritual learning first and yet not slight the secular learning. …

“… And since what we will need to know is hard to discern, we need the help of heaven to know which of the myriad things we could study we would most wisely learn. It also means that we cannot waste time entertaining ourselves when we have the chance to read or to listen to whatever will help us learn what is true and useful. Insatiable curiosity will be our hallmark†(“Education for Real Life,†Ensign, Oct. 2002, 18, 19).

Elder Robert D. Hales of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: “A few of the basic attributes needed to become a lifelong learner are courage, faithful desire, humility, patience, curiosity, and a willingness to communicate and share the knowledge that we gain. …

“My dear sisters, don’t ever sell yourself short as a woman or as a mother. … Do not let the world define, denigrate, or limit your feelings of lifelong learning and the values of motherhood in the home—both here mortally and in the eternal learning and benefits you give to your children and to your companion.

“Lifelong learning is essential to the vitality of the human mind, body, and soul. It enhances self-worth and self-actuation. Lifelong learning is invigorating mentally and is a great defense against aging, depression, and self-doubt†(“The Journey of Lifelong Learning,†in Brigham Young University 2008–2009 Speeches [2009], 2, 8–9).

 

So then I was doing a search on the church web site later and came across an article in the church magazine for teens and read this in a Q&A in an issue from 1978:

Q: In the church young women are encouraged to marry. How should this affect a girl's educational plans?

 

A: The fact that a young woman plans to marry should stimulate her to make education a way of life.

“Too great care cannot be taken in educating our young ladies. … Let the women of our country be made intelligent and their children will certainly be the same. The proper education of a man decides his welfare; but the interests of a whole family are secured by the correct education of a woman.†(George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, Deseret Book Co., 1974, 2:138.)

All wholesome skills and studies are useful and beneficial to a mother. She will be regarded by her young ones as the fountain of knowledge. A young girl should prepare a vast reservoir of knowledge prior to marriage and continue learning throughout her life. During child-raising years she will be drawing far more from this reservoir than she puts into it. A woman who puts her knowledge to use in the home produces an enriched home environment and becomes a wise, richly experienced woman.

I will list three things one can do to make education a way of life.

...

 

The three things listed were, in summary, 1) develop your curiosity, ask questions and strive to retain what you learn, 2) be prepared to learn good things from anyone (in other words, not just teachers, but the people around you), and 3) plan and save money for formal education, and whenever you have the opportunity to take a class or study a trade, sieze that opportunity.

 

Next was a brief discussion regarding balancing spiritual and secular education and physical health. It ended with this statement, which I find quite interesting:

Happy, healthy, and blessed is the home where the wife and mother has and is conscientiously taking care of her spiritual, physical, and secular education.

 

 

And then I came on here tonight and read this thread. It just seems like the topic keeps coming up today. Strange.

 

On a more practical note, one thing I have found is that I can often check out from the library, or download from the internet, good books, interesting lectures, and other intellectually stimulating material in an audio format. Then I can listen while I'm folding laundry or doing dishes and it both helps me keep up with the housework (though lately I could be doing better with that one...sigh) and gives me something worthwhile to think over, and often to discuss later with dh or ds...and increasingly with dd, though she's still quite little for too much depth. I don't think you have to choose between thinking, learning, and having an opinion on one hand, and keeping house on the other hand either. And in fact, to me "homemaking" has always meant something quite different from "housekeeping". Housekeeping certainly is something that needs to happen in a home, but clean clothes and dishes and spotless floors and furnishings are not what "makes" a house a "home". To me, homemaking is that other part, the part that makes it feel like a home and a family, instead of just a place to sleep and a bunch of people. And I think you NEED a thinking mind to do that--to really get to know each family member well enough to know what makes that person feel cherished and safe, and to discern ways in which to help each family member (including mom and dad) grow and develop into the kinds of people God has in mind for them. Seems to me that just about anybody can keep house, but it takes someone really on the ball to be a real homemaker. Someone with a heart and a spirit and a MIND. It baffles me that anyone would encourage a girl to take all that on without also teaching her to gather knowledge and wisdom at every opportunity.

 

Anyway...interesting discussion, thank you to everyone who has posted.

[elw_miller]

it's usually broken thoughts

 

Broken thoughts, broken conversations--nothing shatters a thought or a brewing eloquent turn of phrase faster than kids shrieking (for fun or otherwise), kids arguing with each other or kids interrupting you. I love my kiddos (ages 4, 2, and 6 mos.), but on some days they can sure drive out all ability to think! :)

 

I love quiet, contemplative (even mindless) tasks for alone time--planting and tending my garden, for instance, or baking bread. When I get that chance I thoroughly enjoy the peaceful contemplation. Yet, it is not the same as reading challenging material, wrestling with it, pausing to consider, rereading, and then sharing my questions, concerns, and impressions (in complete sentences) in writing or with my husband or a friend.

 

My idea of a good date night with my husband is a trip to a coffee shop for a good conversation. :)

 

I am a far cry from letting housework override my ability to think:blush:, but daily life still seems to get in the way of a complete thought unless I make time for it. I don't usually remember to make time for intellectual revitalization until I notice I'm getting stressed and edgy (which I could've avoided becoming had I scheduled a night out sooner). Rather than stay awake to all hours (like again tonight :)), I think I'd better heed SWB's advice and get some good reading accomplished early in the morning.

[Marylou]

My idea of a good date night with my husband is a trip to a coffee shop for a good conversation. :)

 

 

 

One of our best anniversary outings in 19 years happened last year. After dining at Red Lobster we walked across the street to B and N and browsed. Dh went his way and I looked at books that interested me. It seemed odd to be celebrating our 'togetherness' while going our own ways! Then we bought a cup of coffee and shared it as we showed each other snippets of what we liked/thought intersting in the various books.

 

It was one of our best anniversaries. And I didn't have to do dishes that night either :001_smile:

[Jayne J]

Just popped back in to check things out--this thread had me thinking all night and I wanted to see how things were developing...

 

Now, let me state right up front that I believe fully in the importance of homemaking and housekeeping. I believe it is a challanging and fulfilling job and value it very highly...but I wonder if we short change ourselves when we try to put it on the same level as serious reading and study. I know I have done it, so I speak from my own failing in this, but IS it really the same, or even close, to say that, well, I think about things while I dust and so that is somehow as good as serious study? Don't we deprive ourselves of the thought that our studies are just as important as those of our children if we tell them to sit and study/read, but we scrub the floors instead, and say it's ok because we try to have a few coherent thoughts as we do so?

 

What do you think?

Edited August 5, 2009 by urpedonmommy

[Marie in Oh]

I think it is important for this point to be heard.

 

I listened for years to all in the homeschool community who said (loudly) that we need to be more Martha than Martha Stewart in order to be a real homeschooler.

 

Then I remembered that dh married me not for my cooking and cleaning (I didn't know how to do either when he met me,) but because I was smart and interesting and full of life. I still believe in my husband's authority, and I am a submissive wife, but I am a strong intelligent one. It is harder to be this type, because a legalistic list of rules to be a good wife is easy to follow. Finding out what it means to follow *my own husband's lead* is harder, but I think is the point.

 

Praise the Lord for that revelation. I almost didn't get it in time, and dh was bewildered by the woman who cooked and cleaned and cared about minutiae of home life and expected his gratitude for it, when he really just wanted the funny, sassy girl he married back. He didn't want a maid and a cook, he wanted a partner who challenges him intellectually, edits his work, helps him think through problems, etc.

 

I'm looking around at a bunch of frustrated smart homeschool moms I know IRL who have listened to those who value homemaking over thinking, and I see them searching for a way to be heard, and it isn't pretty. They end up bitter or critical or weary. I was getting there a few years ago, and it stunk. I ended up breaking down to dh, crying, "I just don't want to talk to other moms about crockpot meals anymore."

 

We work as a family to keep our home running. We spend the rest of our time on thinking and serving. It works for us. :001_smile:

 

 

This is me to a "tee." :iagree: