S/O regarding submissive wives for non-Christians.

[Peek a Boo]

Yeah.

 

When I read "submission" all I can think is BDSM.

 

 

as long as it's voluntary......:D

 

:: putting my whip away for now::

[swimmermom3]

maybe their family had already discussed doing something w/ the boys before ever coming to the reunion? something that might have stemmed from something that happened at home? maybe that the girls didn't have an interest in? and SIL figgered this would be a good time to let them go?

 

Sorry Peek a Boo. We were there a week. Each family had clean-up three times. Each time, the 5 guys were nowhere to be found-in the kitchen. But BIL was happily ensconced on the sofa opposite the kitchen, watching TV. I know that's their arrangement and that works for them. I wish I could have merrily sat on my backside and let my SIL clean up on her own, but that would have felt unkind. So I settled for helping and thinking unkind thoughts about my BIL.:blushing: I'm fairly sure he doesn't know how to wash dishes.

[swimmermom3]

I am really non even sure how to word this question. I am not a Christian and this is a completely foreign concept to me. To me this seems like a power struggle issue and I can not imagine any situation in which I would submit to my hubby. My question is how other non-Christians deal with issues in which the Christian answer would be for the wife to submit to the husband. If wifely submission is not an option then what are the options? :confused:

 

KidsHappen, did you get your question answered? It seems like we still had a lot of rehashing the Christian viewpoint even though there were two other threads already devoted to that.

 

Without getting too personal, did you have a specific situation in mind?

[Peek a Boo]

Sorry Peek a Boo. We were there a week. Each family had clean-up three times. Each time, the 5 guys were nowhere to be found-in the kitchen. But BIL was happily ensconced on the sofa opposite the kitchen, watching TV. I know that's their arrangement and that works for them. I wish I could have merrily sat on my backside and let my SIL clean up on her own, but that would have felt unkind. So I settled for helping and thinking unkind thoughts about my BIL.:blushing: I'm fairly sure he doesn't know how to wash dishes.

 

 

aha-- i thought you literally didn't know where they were. ;)

She might also HATE working with them and prefer their absence in the kitchen, lol. but you know them better than us.

 

I can't stand to watch dh clean the kitchen: the guy does a marvelous job and it looks wonderful when it's done, but he sloshes water everywhere [and wipes it all up afterwards], doesn't rinse or sort or stack the dishes properly, and does it all wrong! it drives me nuts, but I can't really complain cuz he Gets it Done. I just have to remove my bitten-off tongue from the room.....:tongue_smilie:

eta: all of the above rant typed knowing there's really no "wrong" way to get a room CLEAN! ;)

[Dobela]

 

This is what I think about. What if dh wants to make a really bad financial decision, or he believes in leaving a critical health care choice for a child to God's will (no medical intervention) and you don't agree. Do you go along with the decision trusting that God will take care of it? I've probably picked extreme examples, but neither of those actions are immoral or sinful in and of themselves.

I didn't marry a man that would make those kinds of decisions to begin with. Even as a Christian. I don't believe that a man should ruin us financially or that medical care is wrong. So, when I chose a man to be my dh, I made sure he could handle his finances and that we had similar religious beliefs. And I waited a long time to find that man- I was 28 and he was 33. If his beliefs suddenly changed, I would definately be speaking out, taking over, or something until he either came back to his right mind or was found to be suffering from dementia or othr mind altering disease and I could take over permanently.

[KingM]

I didn't marry a man that would make those kinds of decisions to begin with. Even as a Christian. I don't believe that a man should ruin us financially or that medical care is wrong. So, when I chose a man to be my dh, I made sure he could handle his finances and that we had similar religious beliefs. And I waited a long time to find that man- I was 28 and he was 33. If his beliefs suddenly changed, I would definately be speaking out, taking over, or something until he either came back to his right mind or was found to be suffering from dementia or othr mind altering disease and I could take over permanently.

 

I hear what you're saying and it makes sense, but isn't "being in your right mind" rather subjective? What if he became converted to a stricter brand of Christianity and suddenly decided that he should rely on God to decide if an ill child should live or die, rather than taking the child to the hospital. Or what if he decided it was all bunk and that he didn't want the kids going to church anymore?

 

There are sane people who believe these things, so it couldn't easily be attributed to dementia.

[Peela]

Originally Posted by angela in ohio

I've found, though, that if you treat a man like he is smart, capable, and respectable, he will generally rise up to it. Just like when dh treats me like I am a great wife, even if I'm not, I strive to be one.

 

 

And how many husbands have you tested that theory on? ;)

 

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[kalanamak]

I grew up in Philly. ;)

 

Even worse. Philly is even worse. Same traffic, but fewer people know how to drive in it.

[Peela]

I can imagine why some men would like this arrangement. What I don't understand is why so many women work so hard to preserve patriarchy.

 

Perhaps because it makes them feel safe? As far as I can tell, women are far harder on themselves, and other women, than men (in general) are on them anyway. Women on the one hand want the strong man with the income- I believe it is a primal instinct in order to bring up children safely- and on the other hand want to be free of it. We live in interesting times and I believe we are in some sort of cultural transition which is why we are even discussing it on message boards.

And I dont think all women do work hard to preserve patriarchy, by any means. The subculture on these boards is of a high percentage of conservative Christian element. I don't actually mix with people who think like that IRL.

There is a certain appeal to surrendering to a human higher power, I guess.

[Haiku]

If wifely submission is not an option then what are the options? :confused:

 

Respect and negotiation. Submission would never happen here. My husband and I expect there to be give and take in our marriage, not domination. We work with each other.

 

Tara

[kalanamak]

Now, if she becomes a Christian later (as I did,) or he becomes a jerk later (I've never seen a jerk husband who hadn't always been a jerk, but I guess it could happen,)

 

Live longer. One of the most distressing parts of growing deep into middle age is to find out that my (unconscious) belief that all people improve as they grow older is false.

 

I've know people who picked up drinking in their late 30's and were dead by 60. And I've certainly seen people broken by painful illnesses, by financial setbacks, and, most distressing, a slow sink into a kind of paranoia with a smaller and smaller circle of people they will talk to, and more and more interest in fringe politics. Angry politics.

 

Bright, loving, "the last person I would have expected this out of" people. I am not the only one perplexed.

[HRAAB]

I need to go help pack the car for our camping trip or dh is going to be looking for a submissive wife real soon. Anyway, as I read about our different marriages, they actually seem quite similar (excluding those who take the wifely submission teaching to radical extremes). Most Christians I know treat it as mutual submission, mutual respect, out of love. The very few marriages I know that I would consider unhealthy, take it to an extreme, and in one case, I would say my friend, the wife, created the monster her dh is. She lets him walk over her, boss her around, because she's being submissive. I think probably most of us would agree that isn't what submission means.

 

I think the main problem is the word submission. I understand how it is interpreted, but the word itself gives too much leeway for domination because of how it's understood in our society. 'The subjects submitted to the conqueror' type of thing. And then only the wife is told to submit. Even when I considered myself a Christian, I still thought Paul was writing in context of the time in which he lived, and we needed to apply it in the context in which we live. But, I still didn't like the word submit. Also, I personally didn't weigh Paul's words as heavily as I did the words of Jesus, but that's another whole topic.

 

I really don't think we're all that far off, but I maintain I am not a submissive wife, but I will give in for the good of the marriage if it's not a moral issue type thing - not because he's the man and has authority over me, but because I value our marriage and family. And he does the same.

 

I'm just rambling and need to get to work.

 

Janet

[Tammy]

I know how it works for Christians.....I asked that because this thread was asking NON Christians....and someone who I 'thought' was non Christian (since that was what the OP asked for) said the man has the final decision. So I asked her why..... She cleared it up in a follow up post.

[swimmermom3]

I need to go help pack the car for our camping trip or dh is going to be looking for a submissive wife real soon. Anyway, as I read about our different marriages, they actually seem quite similar (excluding those who take the wifely submission teaching to radical extremes). Most Christians I know treat it as mutual submission, mutual respect, out of love. The very few marriages I know that I would consider unhealthy, take it to an extreme, and in one case, I would say my friend, the wife, created the monster her dh is. She lets him walk over her, boss her around, because she's being submissive. I think probably most of us would agree that isn't what submission means.

 

I think the main problem is the word submission. I understand how it is interpreted, but the word itself gives too much leeway for domination because of how it's understood in our society. 'The subjects submitted to the conqueror' type of thing. And then only the wife is told to submit. Even when I considered myself a Christian, I still thought Paul was writing in context of the time in which he lived, and we needed to apply it in the context in which we live. But, I still didn't like the word submit. Also, I personally didn't weigh Paul's words as heavily as I did the words of Jesus, but that's another whole topic.

 

I really don't think we're all that far off, but I maintain I am not a submissive wife, but I will give in for the good of the marriage if it's not a moral issue type thing - not because he's the man and has authority over me, but because I value our marriage and family. And he does the same.

 

I'm just rambling and need to get to work.

 

Janet

 

Janet, I don't think you are prone to rambling.:D I think you've hit the nail on the head. Have a great camping trip!

Edited July 12, 2009 by swimmermom3
typo

[swimmermom3]

aha-- i thought you literally didn't know where they were. ;)

She might also HATE working with them and prefer their absence in the kitchen, lol. but you know them better than us.

 

I can't stand to watch dh clean the kitchen: the guy does a marvelous job and it looks wonderful when it's done, but he sloshes water everywhere [and wipes it all up afterwards], doesn't rinse or sort or stack the dishes properly, and does it all wrong! it drives me nuts, but I can't really complain cuz he Gets it Done. I just have to remove my bitten-off tongue from the room.....:tongue_smilie:

eta: all of the above rant typed knowing there's really no "wrong" way to get a room CLEAN! ;)

 

I hadn't thought about her not wanting to work with them. Hmmm.

 

So, your dh doesn't clean the kichen your way. How painful-you know-tongue and all.:D I use to like to control how everything got done in the house. I've gotten older, slower, and mellower. I'm hoping I've - er-become more gracious, but that might be stretching it a bit. Now, I'm grateful when things get done without my initiation. Besides, I learned long ago that my handsome dh has a protective shield around him - think Saran Wrap-that protects him from folly. Last week, he bought a new polo and wanted to wear it asap. So he laundered the yellow shirt with the few odds and ends left in the laundry room - khaki shorts and a new dark red t-shirt. Everything looked great. We all know if I had done that load, my boys would be wearing pink shorts.:001_huh:

[Holly IN]

I had tried several times. I believe my mum was in a bit of a panic. I needed to get her attention. I don't know if you've ever driven in mid-town, but you really need to concentrate.

 

Or in an area you never driven before. My dh didn't think I was disrespectful at all.

 

Holly

[Greta]

This could be us. Dh works really, really hard all year, and I take care of him (and his family) on vacation. I would have been very willingly doing the cleaning while he and the boys relaxed. If someone else offered to help, that would have been fine, but I wouldn't have minded doing it by myself or with my dd.

 

Part of this I can completely understand. My dh works very hard at his 10-hour per day high-stress job, AND here at home as well. I want his vacations to be as relaxing and enjoyable as possible, because he gets very few of them and they are very important! So I could see myself doing this kind of clean-up while dh relaxed, though I seriously doubt my dh would actually take advantage of it. Knowing him, my guess is he would say let's do it together so we get it done twice as fast and we can go relax together. But I digress.

 

The part I don't get is: why are the sons relaxing with dad? Mom has probably worked hard all year cleaning house, cooking their meals, etc, etc, etc. Maybe THEY should be the ones doing the cleanup while the parents BOTH relax!!! :D

[KidsHappen]

KidsHappen, did you get your question answered? It seems like we still had a lot of rehashing the Christian viewpoint even though there were two other threads already devoted to that.

 

Without getting too personal, did you have a specific situation in mind?

 

 

No I didn't have any specific situation in mind and I pretty much did get my question answered. It seems that many people, in general, of all kinds handle marital issue much the same way we do. A great deal of my difficulty in understanding the issue of submissive in wives may have to do with semantics. But even after a great deal of explanations by many Christians I am failing to see much distinction between ttheir descriptions and what I describe below here:

 

When I hear the term I always picture a parent/child relationship. There is no doubt that I am there for my children and that there is nothing I wouldn't do for them including torture, suffering and death. I gave birth to them natually without drugs, I brestfed, co-slept, attachment parented, and homeschooled the, and not always neccessarily because I wanted to but because I thought that it was the right thing to do for them. I fed them, cloth them, house them, provide for all of their needs and I do all of these things willingly, without reservation and without any expectations of anything in return. I treat my children as full human beings with rights of their own who deserve repect and understand the same as any other human. When I tell them something they are allowed to question, and plead their case but I have the final say. There is no doubt that I expect them to be submissive to me. They are not yet my equals and I require their obedience. I am their superior and they do answer to me. SO in my mind this is the essence of a submissive/dominant relationship and I simply can not imagine a relationship like that between husband and wife.

[Greta]

When you see a man who tells his wife that she has to do what he says because she's supposed to submit, um, he's NOT following the Biblical pattern or mandates for marriage. The Greek word translated submit means to voluntarily place oneself under. If a man demands submission, the submission he gets is not voluntary and therefore not Biblical. The Bible tells men to love, not dominate, their wives.

 

A Christian friend of mine pointed out something to me which I had never noticed/considered before. She said that the scripture about submission is addressed TO wives. It is NOT addressed to men, and any time a man quotes that scripture to his wife (in a controlling way), or uses it to dominate her, he is misusing it AND ignoring the scriptures that ARE addressed TO him. He has been commanded to love his wife as Jesus loved the church, which is a lot more difficult and humbling than the command that women were given. That was a take on the situation which I had never thought of before, and I found it very interesting.

Edited July 12, 2009 by GretaLynne
clarifying

[swimmermom3]

No I didn't have any specific situation in mind and I pretty much did get my question answered. It seems that many people, in general, of all kinds handle marital issue much the same way we do. A great deal of my difficulty in understanding the issue of submissive in wives may have to do with semantics. But even after a great deal of explanations by many Christians I am failing to see much distinction between ttheir descriptions and what I describe below here:

 

When I hear the term I always picture a parent/child relationship. There is no doubt that I am there for my children and that there is nothing I wouldn't do for them including torture, suffering and death. I gave birth to them natually without drugs, I brestfed, co-slept, attachment parented, and homeschooled the, and not always neccessarily because I wanted to but because I thought that it was the right thing to do for them. I fed them, cloth them, house them, provide for all of their needs and I do all of these things willingly, without reservation and without any expectations of anything in return. I treat my children as full human beings with rights of their own who deserve repect and understand the same as any other human. When I tell them something they are allowed to question, and plead their case but I have the final say. There is no doubt that I expect them to be submissive to me. They are not yet my equals and I require their obedience. I am their superior and they do answer to me. SO in my mind this is the essence of a submissive/dominant relationship and I simply can not imagine a relationship like that between husband and wife.

 

Well stated. Thank you so much. Your thread has prompted me to be even more appreciative of dh than usual.

Edited July 12, 2009 by swimmermom3
Afterthought

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I know how it works for Christians.....I asked that because this thread was asking NON Christians....and someone who I 'thought' was non Christian (since that was what the OP asked for) said the man has the final decision. So I asked her why..... She cleared it up in a follow up post.

I am sorry that you feel that I misrepresented myself. I am fairly sure that I was not the first Christian to post. I am glad that it was cleared up.

[Tammy]

Absolutely not......no misrepresentation at all. I was just confused because I looked at your sig line and assumed you were a non Christian (sorry about that). I see that plenty of Christians posted in the thread....LOL.

[Katrina]

A Christian friend of mine pointed out something to me which I had never noticed/considered before. She said that the scripture about submission is addressed TO wives. It is NOT addressed to men, and any time a man quotes that scripture to his wife (in a controlling way), or uses it to dominate her, he is misusing it AND ignoring the scriptures that ARE addressed TO him. He has been commanded to love his wife as Jesus loved the church, which is a lot more difficult and humbling than the command that women were given. That was a take on the situation which I had never thought of before, and I found it very interesting.

 

 

I think that line of reasoning is rather demeaning to women. It reads to me as if women aren't capable of more. Men are supposed to be spiritually better than women which is why they are given the harder commandment.

[Marylou]

If wifely submission is not an option then what are the options? :confused:

I think the answer is "pragmatism" (which we've seen from most of the posts) or perhaps "humanism".

 

 

A Christian friend of mine pointed out something to me which I had never noticed/considered before. She said that the scripture about submission is addressed TO wives. It is NOT addressed to men, and any time a man quotes that scripture to his wife (in a controlling way), or uses it to dominate her, he is misusing it AND ignoring the scriptures that ARE addressed TO him. He has been commanded to love his wife as Jesus loved the church, which is a lot more difficult and humbling than the command that women were given. That was a take on the situation which I had never thought of before, and I found it very interesting.

 

Exactly. Your friend would probably agree with this article/sermon:

http://www.cbmw.org/Resources/Sermons/Husbands-Who-Love-Like-Christ-and-the-Wives-Who-Submit-to-Them

[Marylou]

I think that line of reasoning is rather demeaning to women. It reads to me as if women aren't capable of more. Men are supposed to be spiritually better than women which is why they are given the harder commandment.

 

 

I'm sorry I haven't read every single post, so maybe someone has mentioned this already . . . "submissive" is not the same as "inferior", "incapable", "less worthy", "stepped on" etc. etc. There are many, many occasions where we all submit to others in our daily lives. In fact we "without question" submit (or at least we should) to the police office who pulls us over. We submit to our boss' orders. We even submit to the mom holding the "STOP" sign when the kids get off the bus on the corner! Yet, when it comes to submission in marriage it is "horrific" "degrading" "BSDM" whatever that is (I think I have an idea). And since true submission is a sign, a picture of how the Church (bride) is to relate to Christ (bridegroom) I don't see why a non-Christian would want to have any part of it, kwim?

[Katrina]

Frankly...I think the word "submissive" is at the heart of the matter. It doesn't matter what a marriage looks like from the outside, being submissive is more of an internal matter. Submissive wives view their husbands as the head of their households. Husbands view their wives as under their authority.

 

Just because on the outside some submissive households function like many other nonsubmissive households, it doesn't mean they are the same.

 

:grouphug:

[Katrina]

I'm sorry I haven't read every single post, so maybe someone has mentioned this already . . . "submissive" is not the same as "inferior", "incapable", "less worthy", "stepped on" etc. etc. There are many, many occasions where we all submit to others in our daily lives. In fact we "without question" submit (or at least we should) to the police office who pulls us over. We submit to our boss' orders. We even submit to the mom holding the "STOP" sign when the kids get off the bus on the corner! Yet, when it comes to submission in marriage it is "horrific" "degrading" "BSDM" whatever that is (I think I have an idea). And since true submission is a sign, a picture of how the Church (bride) is to relate to Christ (bridegroom) I don't see why a non-Christian would want to have any part of it, kwim?

 

I may be wrong, I'm just saying how it reads to me. AND growing up in a church where we were taught to be submissive to our husbands.

 

When I submit to the police officer, it's because I know I'm under his authority and he can put my rear in jail. I submit to my boss (when I worked) because he could fire me if I didn't perform my job well. I submit to the mom holding the stop sign because I recognize that the school that the mom is volunteering for has the authority and job of protecting the students in their care and I don't.

 

Also...in my family most probably have submissive type marriages and you would never call any of the women door stops or whatever. That's not the point. I just think that there's a lot of "equal but not equal" double talk when it comes to the subject of submissive marriage. And that's not what I've seen on this board, but from growing up in that atmosphere.

[fivetails]

It's not just Christian households/marriages that may have the husband as "head of the home" - although perhaps you would find it more often there...but it certainly exists in other households/marriages as well.

 

My father & stepmother were/are atheists - yet, growing up, I distinctly remember recognizing my father as the main decision maker, the top authority in the home, that sort of thing. Now, we were a military family - airforce. I don't know if that makes a difference - it does sometimes tend to be its own little 'culture', I think.

[muffinmom]

Haven't read the whole thread, but the bottom line in a marriage relationship (or any other one, really) is that when you come to a disagreement or point of contention: what is more important to you: to hold out for your way or to willingly give up your wishes for the sake of the other person or for the relationship?

 

Giving up your own desires for the sake of another *out of love (and consideration for the other)* is the most mature way to act in a relationship. And it can be terrifically hard to do because we all want our own way.

 

Word of caution: This "giving up" for someone will not work if you do it grudgingly or if you feel forced to do so. It only works when you do it willingly, out of love.

[muffinmom]

I think that line of reasoning is rather demeaning to women. It reads to me as if women aren't capable of more. Men are supposed to be spiritually better than women which is why they are given the harder commandment.

 

 

I think both commands are equally hard. They are IMO directed at the weaknesses of men and women. Women like to be in control...what we need for maturity is to learn how to give up some of that control. Men can be very unaware of how to live in relationship...don't have an understanding of how to love and often live by their "fleshly" desires. Here they are commanded to practice sacrificial love...the giving up of their selves for the other. Really, both husband and wife are asked to give up themselves for the other. I think it's a mature love that can do that.

[MOM24WONDERS]

Submission is not being a doormat. It's not being a broken down, weak woman. In fact, it takes much more strength of character to be submissive than it does to be bossy and aggressive.

 

I'm not sure why women think that "being in control" is so important. There isn't a control. Yes, the final decision belongs to my husband - he is the sole supporter of us - the priest, the protector, and the provider. However, he has NEVER made any decision without discussing it with me fully. That's love and respect.

 

Now, there have been a few times when he would make choices that I personally wouldn't have thought were the right way to go - but in the end it always worked out.

 

I believe that unless you fully understand what true submission is (not just doing what you're told or being the obedient little wife), that you can't fully understand the joy and peace that occurs in a home that follows this type of belief system.

 

Honestly, I am the happiest woman on earth. My husband is an amazing man who loves the children and I above all else. He is constantly caring for us and doing for us. I can't be thankful enough for the man that he is.

 

And in turn, I WANT to do things for him....cook his favorite meals, rub his back, etc. He's never demanded or even asked that I do those things, but I do because I love him. That's the same reason I'm submissive - because I have 100% faith and trust in him and in his beliefs....I know that he will NEVER make a decision that will harm us in any way. His every thought is for our well-being - and ours should be to him.

 

It's so important to me to show the utmost respect to him. If he wants to buy a new car and I really don't think we should - I won't say anything...however, he ALWAYS asks what I think and then I have the opportunity to share my qualms.

 

IF I had just went into a tirade over not being able to afford the car or whatever then he would have tuned out everything I said. I would have not shown any respect to him and honestly, I shouldn't expect him to sit there and listen.

 

Feminism has nearly ruined our world. It's ruining families and marriage and women. It's a sad state our world is in when a woman is made to feel less because she isn't like a man. I like being a woman!

 

I'm not sure how to explain this is non-Biblical terms...but for me, I constantly remember that it is better to live on the corner of the roof of the house than to have to live with a nagging, complaining wife. I'd rather have my man in the house ;)

[melissel]

In fact, it takes much more strength of character to be submissive than it does to be bossy and aggressive.

 

The opposite of submissive is bossy and aggressive? :confused: I think there are some here who would take issue with that.

[Katrina]

Submission is not being a doormat. It's not being a broken down, weak woman. In fact, it takes much more strength of character to be submissive than it does to be bossy and aggressive.

 

Um...I am so not in charge of my marriage. I had a passive agressive father, and that isn't what I wanted in my marriage. I didn't want to marry a child.

 

I'm not sure why women think that "being in control" is so important. There isn't a control. Yes, the final decision belongs to my husband - he is the sole supporter of us - the priest, the protector, and the provider. However, he has NEVER made any decision without discussing it with me fully. That's love and respect.

 

I think that this perception is part of the semantics problem. Submissive wives resent being called a doormat, while non submissive wives (or at least myself) resent the insinuation that we are bossy, in control, and our husbands bow down to our every whim. That is SO not my marriage.

 

 

Honestly, I am the happiest woman on earth. My husband is an amazing man who loves the children and I above all else. He is constantly caring for us and doing for us. I can't be thankful enough for the man that he is.

 

And in turn, I WANT to do things for him....cook his favorite meals, rub his back, etc. He's never demanded or even asked that I do those things, but I do because I love him. That's the same reason I'm submissive - because I have 100% faith and trust in him and in his beliefs....I know that he will NEVER make a decision that will harm us in any way. His every thought is for our well-being - and ours should be to him.

 

In a lot of ways I could have said the exact same things. I feel that I have the best marriage on earth, I enjoy doing things for him to show him I love him, and in return he does things to show me he loves me.

 

 

Feminism has nearly ruined our world. It's ruining families and marriage and women. It's a sad state our world is in when a woman is made to feel less because she isn't like a man. I like being a woman!

 

Actually, my husband is more of a professed feminist than I am, and I don't see how he's ruining the world. He lives up to his responsibilities and is a terrific husband and father. He likes the fact that I'm all woman, and I love the fact that he's all man. I love being a woman too! :lol:

 

I'm not sure how to explain this is non-Biblical terms...but for me, I constantly remember that it is better to live on the corner of the roof of the house than to have to live with a nagging, complaining wife. I'd rather have my man in the house ;)

 

Again...just because I'm not submissive doens't mean I'm a complaining, nagging wife. I have no more of a need to be in charge than he does.

[Firefly]

Also...in my family most probably have submissive type marriages and you would never call any of the women door stops or whatever. That's not the point. I just think that there's a lot of "equal but not equal" double talk when it comes to the subject of submissive marriage. And that's not what I've seen on this board, but from growing up in that atmosphere.

 

:iagree: This is what I feel too. I hear a lot of "it's being submissive, only it's not..." :confused: However the definition is twisted or interpreted, the outcome is the same: even if you submit willingly or your DH sometimes allows you to make a decision, it still is ultimately, HIS final decision (to let you choose).

 

These threads bum me out! Patriarchal religions have persuaded millions of women across the world to believe that they are somehow less, and to willingly submit to their husbands just because they are men. It seems like convincing a slave to truly believe he is better off letting his master have control of his life. I really don't get it. :( Honestly, I would love it if someone could make me understand this; maybe I wouldn't get so depressed reading these threads! LOL

 

I view my husband as my partner-- both our opinions get weighed equally. Sometimes I make the final decision, sometimes DH does. Some have implied in this thread that their marriages are happy because they submit to their husbands. I'm sure they are very happy, but it can work the other way too. DH and I were college sweethearts 23 years ago and have been happily married for 17, so I think marriage where the wife doesn't submit can be just as fulfilling.

[Rosie_0801]

Feminism has nearly ruined our world. It's ruining families and marriage and women. It's a sad state our world is in when a woman is made to feel less because she isn't like a man. I like being a woman!

 

 

*sigh* The media interpretation of feminism is what has caused the problems. Many of the original suffragettes were Christian, actually. From what I can gather, their version of equality was the positive model of the biblical marriage.

 

Firefly: Did you read the submission thread linked from the FIAR forum? That helped me wrap my head around the idea :)

 

Rosie

[Lovedtodeath]

It's so important to me to show the utmost respect to him. If he wants to buy a new car and I really don't think we should - I won't say anything...however, he ALWAYS asks what I think and then I have the opportunity to share my qualms.

DH actually called me the other day and told me to get the car all cleaned up, because we were going to trade it in.

 

This is the important part... I thought about it and called him back. I said that I really appreciate the thought of buying me a new car, but for $300 a month, I'd rather get new glasses and get my teeth cleaned instead of worrying about spending money on medical expenses. He saw my point and we didn't buy the new car. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

:iagree: This is what I feel too. I hear a lot of "it's being submissive, only it's not..." :confused: However the definition is twisted or interpreted, the outcome is the same: even if you submit willingly or your DH sometimes allows you to make a decision, it still is ultimately, HIS final decision (to let you choose).

 

These threads bum me out! Patriarchal religions have persuaded millions of women across the world to believe that they are somehow less, and to willingly submit to their husbands just because they are men. It seems like convincing a slave to truly believe he is better off letting his master have control of his life. I really don't get it. :( Honestly, I would love it if someone could make me understand this; maybe I wouldn't get so depressed reading these threads! LOL

 

I view my husband as my partner-- both our opinions get weighed equally. Sometimes I make the final decision, sometimes DH does. Some have implied in this thread that their marriages are happy because they submit to their husbands. I'm sure they are very happy, but it can work the other way too. DH and I were college sweethearts 23 years ago and have been happily married for 17, so I think marriage where the wife doesn't submit can be just as fulfilling.

I will give it a shot: Well, actually Christians believe that men and women both have the equal opportunity to rule as kings and priests alongside Jesus. So it isn't about being considered less. It is about structure and order. There are also a group of men in each congregation that make decisions. They are considered ministers of the congregation. The term minister implies servant. They are not more important than the other members, but they have the responsibility of making those types of decisions, and the other congregation members have the responsibility to support those decisions. (there is a scripture that describes congregation members as body parts and that they are all needed) I don't know if that helps at all. :o

[Renee in NC]

That's the same reason I'm submissive - because I have 100% faith and trust in him and in his beliefs....I know that he will NEVER make a decision that will harm us in any way. His every thought is for our well-being - and ours should be to him.

 

What if that were not true? How far does a wife follow her irresponsible, selfish dh? Right off the cliff?

 

This is what I have seen time and time again - if the dh is like yours, submission is much easier. What tends to happen when you are dealing with a different kind of man is that women with "easy" husbands are telling women in difficult circumstances to "pray, submit more, cater more, do what he wants, don't offer your opinion, etc." even when the dh is making decisions that are *fine* for his wants, but mean that the wife and dc don't even have their basic needs met.

 

I know many men who are NOT priests, providers, or protectors, and yet their wives are made to feel that if they were just submissive enough he would be those things. Heck, I used to *believe* that! I know better, though. No one is honored by allowing a man to be irresponsible, selfish, and sinful - not the man, not God, and not the wife and children. And a man with those tendencies can get absolutely out of control in these areas when the wife allows him (through some idea of submission) to be this way totally unchecked.

[Greta]

I think that line of reasoning is rather demeaning to women. It reads to me as if women aren't capable of more. Men are supposed to be spiritually better than women which is why they are given the harder commandment.

 

I think I didn't explain well -- my friend and I were specifically talking about men who use the "submission" scripture as an excuse for their chauvinism and bullish behavior. Her point was that these men are not truly understanding or following scripture -- that they are more concerned about the specks in their wives' eyes than the logs in their own, or however that other scripture goes! Now personally, the concept of submission makes my skin crawl, but I guess that's why it was interesting to me to hear her argument, which was new to me.

 

If men are given the harder commandment, does it follow that they must be spiritually superior? OTOH maybe it means they have more to do in order to catch up to where women are. :tongue_smilie:

[Firefly]

I checked out the link and have been considering Carmen's post (thank you both!) Carmen, you did give me some clarification! I can see what you're saying about the way a congregation operates... kind of like how a government is held accountable to its people (or is supposed to anyway ;)). I hope I have that right. And a healthy marriage should work in a similar way. I just don't understand why sometimes it can't be the woman who's the head of the household. (Though I actually do-- I think-- understand: the answer is because it's what the Bible says.)

 

I still struggle with the idea of the husband having a sort of paternal role over his wife. I lived in Saudi Arabia for many years. The women there let their men take care of them and are happy. They say their husbands adore them and put them on a pedestal. In fact if a woman commits a crime there, it's the husband that goes jail as he is "responsible" for his wife. Yet this responsibility is taken to the extreme there... women can not drive, can only be employed in certain careers, have special seating at the back of public buses, etc etc. ... Ack, sorry, I digress... :blushing:. These discussions just always make me think of my time there, not because women here live like that--obviously, but only because it's women submitting to men in the extreme.

 

Truly I appreciate your thoughts, Carmen. I will mull over them some more...

[LizzyBee]

What if that were not true? How far does a wife follow her irresponsible, selfish dh? Right off the cliff?

 

This is what I have seen time and time again - if the dh is like yours, submission is much easier. What tends to happen when you are dealing with a different kind of man is that women with "easy" husbands are telling women in difficult circumstances to "pray, submit more, cater more, do what he wants, don't offer your opinion, etc." even when the dh is making decisions that are *fine* for his wants, but mean that the wife and dc don't even have their basic needs met.

 

I know many men who are NOT priests, providers, or protectors, and yet their wives are made to feel that if they were just submissive enough he would be those things. Heck, I used to *believe* that! I know better, though. No one is honored by allowing a man to be irresponsible, selfish, and sinful - not the man, not God, and not the wife and children. And a man with those tendencies can get absolutely out of control in these areas when the wife allows him (through some idea of submission) to be this way totally unchecked.

 

I'm not sure where the line should be drawn from a Biblical standpoint. But personally, I cannot stand at the edge of the cliff waiting to go over. If my dh were making a decision that would have dire consequences for the family, I would have to do something about it, whether it's trying to make him see his error or fixing the situation on my own. Additionally, I think that if a dh is not protecting his children, their mom has to protect them. Children cannot speak for themselves, and as my kids' mother, I could not stand by and allow them to be abused or hungry.

Edited July 12, 2009 by LizzyBee

[Jenny in Atl]

Feminism has nearly ruined our world. It's ruining families and marriage and women. It's a sad state our world is in when a woman is made to feel less because she isn't like a man. I like being a woman!

 

 

 

:confused: Really, all that ails this world is the fault of a few bra burning babes from the 70's?

[Tammy]

I am sorry but your post doesn't come near to 'my life' at all. My relationship with my dh is nothing like what you describe the 'non submissive' woman to be. I think your post is a bit over the top.

[kalanamak]

 

Feminism has nearly ruined our world.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

I think you need to get out more.

 

Say, you're the poster whose name is shouting caps. Who didn't know what a "troll" was but knew lots of other terms and techniques of the net.

 

The longer you are here, the more I smell hairy toes under the bridge.

[Jenny in Atl]

:lol::lol::lol:

 

I think you need to get out more.

 

Say, you're the poster whose name is shouting caps. Who didn't know what a "troll" was but knew lots of other terms and techniques of the net.

 

The longer you are here, the more I smell hairy toes under the bridge.

 

I also noticed she has about cut hubby out of her picture (avi). Maybe a subliminal thing?

[KingM]

Feminism has nearly ruined our world. It's ruining families and marriage and women. It's a sad state our world is in when a woman is made to feel less because she isn't like a man. I like being a woman!

 

 

Thank goodness for feminism. Few developments have been such a step forward in the last hundred years. It has been liberating not just for women, but for men too. Even as I speak, my family is bugging me to eat the chocolate mousse that I made, after eating the homemade pizza on pizza crust that I made from scratch. What would a normal, heterosexual guy like me who liked to cook have done a hundred years ago? ;)

[angela in ohio]

And how many husbands have you tested that theory on? ;)

 

Would you believe three?

 

 

 

 

 

 

:D

First mine, and then two others whose wives I convinced to try it.

[Lovedtodeath]

Would you believe three?

 

 

 

 

 

 

:D

First mine, and then two others whose wives I convinced to try it.

Touche! :lol:

[Renee in NC]

I'm not sure where the line should be drawn from a Biblical standpoint. But personally, I cannot stand at the edge of the cliff waiting to go over. If my dh were making a decision that would have dire consequences for the family, I would have to do something about it, whether it's trying to make him see his error or fixing the situation on my own. Additionally, I think that if a dh is not protecting his children, their mom has to protect them. Children cannot speak for themselves, and as my kids' mother, I could not stand by and allow them to be abused or hungry.

 

I have a friend that is struggling greatly with a very bad situation that has at one time or another put her and her children in a bad place. Submission in the sense discussed on a message board would be TERRIBLE for her and her children. It would end up in abuse in a heartbeat.

[PineFarmMom]

I'm not sure where the line should be drawn from a Biblical standpoint. But personally, I cannot stand at the edge of the cliff waiting to go over. If my dh were making a decision that would have dire consequences for the family, I would have to do something about it, whether it's trying to make him see his error or fixing the situation on my own. Additionally, I think that if a dh is not protecting his children, their mom has to protect them. Children cannot speak for themselves, and as my kids' mother, I could not stand by and allow them to be abused or hungry.

 

I agree with you. I am a Christian who happens to have a dh that I really trust and love. I think the view of submission has become distorted and perverted, to be honest, over time and too much human input. Dh and I discuss and pray and think together. There are some issues I divert to him. He pretty much across the board leaves all school and household decisions to me. We'd be running an illogical dictatorship here otherwise.

 

A couple of months ago, he really, really wanted a boat. While it wasn't my first choice of purchases at the time, I thought and prayed about it and realized it would be a fun thing and would be something he'd enjoy. The submission there came from my love for him and my desire to see him happy.

 

I will say, though, that sometimes my emotions get so raw over an issue or I am too involved to make a wise decision. He can always pray and bring logic there. In those situations, I almost always defer to him because I trust him to assist in that weakness of mine. ;) He has consistently made wise decisions when I am being irrational. That is an admission of a fault of mine, but he strengthens me in that way.

 

I have a very dear and wonderful friend who endured years and years of physical, emotional, and mental abuse from a dh because she kept feeling she was supposed to shut up and submit. It took much prayer and separating herself from a messed-up church to see what God really wanted for her, and it was not to submit to an abusive man. She suffers still from post-traumatic stress disorder and many physical issues that could have been avoided had she seen what God really meant in the first place.

 

I'm just sayin'...I think this is a topic that has been placed way up there and twisted beyond recognition. In a healthy marriage, submission flows perfectly. :)