S/O regarding submissive wives for non-Christians.

[KidsHappen]

I am really non even sure how to word this question. I am not a Christian and this is a completely foreign concept to me. To me this seems like a power struggle issue and I can not imagine any situation in which I would submit to my hubby. My question is how other non-Christians deal with issues in which the Christian answer would be for the wife to submit to the husband. If wifely submission is not an option then what are the options? :confused:

[Tammy]

because I find it such a foreign concept. The thought of 'submitting' to my dh would never happen in my world, LOL!

[OnTheBrink]

I think if you read Dr. Laura's books, you'll get a good idea of the concept. She does drag in some scripture occasionally, but it's a lame attempt (IMO) to reach the Christians who may be reading her stuff. Her suggestions aren't really off from what Christian writers say regarding submission, but she doesn't call it that (IIRC). As Rosie said in the other thread, it's really more relational than a specific Christian concept, even though it's discussed in the Bible.

 

Basically, it's treating your dh and doing things for him that make him happy, even if you think they're goofy or silly. (These don't include anything that is demeaning) The point is to serve EACH OTHER, not for the woman to be a doormat. It's NOT OK for the man to take advantage of the woman or treat her as a second class citizen. He's to put her first; she's to put him first. It's more of a circular thing, not a ladder, if that makes any sense. I think the concepts can be applied regardless of one's spiritual convictions. :)

[theresatwist]

KidsHappen, did you catch this article last year?

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/15/magazine/15parenting-t.html?scp=1&sq=parenting%20equal&st=cse

 

Parents who split everything equally (or try to)...mother also works...father also changes diapers and does laundry

 

I do fall far closer to this end. However, I for me making a chart might be a little too much!

[Mabeline]

I think if you read Dr. Laura's books, you'll get a good idea of the concept. She does drag in some scripture occasionally, but it's a lame attempt (IMO) to reach the Christians who may be reading her stuff. Her suggestions aren't really off from what Christian writers say regarding submission, but she doesn't call it that (IIRC). As Rosie said in the other thread, it's really more relational than a specific Christian concept, even though it's discussed in the Bible.

 

Basically, it's treating your dh and doing things for him that make him happy, even if you think they're goofy or silly. (These don't include anything that is demeaning) The point is to serve EACH OTHER, not for the woman to be a doormat. It's NOT OK for the man to take advantage of the woman or treat her as a second class citizen. He's to put her first; she's to put him first. It's more of a circular thing, not a ladder, if that makes any sense. I think the concepts can be applied regardless of one's spiritual convictions. :)

I think this is an excellent description of how it works. A marriage is a two way relationship, with both people having their own roles. It is not one above the other but both loving each other like they need to be loved. I hope that makes sense.

[KarenNC]

I am really non even sure how to word this question. I am not a Christian and this is a completely foreign concept to me. To me this seems like a power struggle issue and I can not imagine any situation in which I would submit to my hubby. My question is how other non-Christians deal with issues in which the Christian answer would be for the wife to submit to the husband. If wifely submission is not an option then what are the options? :confused:

 

I think it would be more accurate to say "a Christian answer would be for the wife to submit to the husband". The teaching of wifely submission as it is often represented in many of the threads is far from a universal concept in Christianity. There's also not a universal concept of what "submission" looks like even among Christians who practice it. For some it is indeed a power struggle, for others not.

 

For us, those issues would mean discussion and coming to agreement. There are definitely times when I *defer* (a term that doesn't carry the baggage "submit" does though the end result may look similar) to my husband's judgment for one reason or another, and times when he does so to me.

[dangermom]

I think a lot of us hear the word "submission" and get an image that is not actually what people mean when they talk about it. Maybe it would help if we had a different word!

[Evergreen State Sue]

I can not imagine any situation in which I would submit to my hubby.

 

Maybe it is the word "submission" that is the problem. Are you saying that you and your husband agree on everything? That there isn't a time that you would defer a decision to him after you've both discussed it? This can be the easy ones like what restaurant you'll go to or major purchases like buying a car. Submission to me doesn't mean I'm a doormat. We talk it over, I give my reasons, he gives his. Submission goes both ways. I defer to him sometimes and he defers to me. If it is a major decision that the other can't defer, then maybe the decision is "wait" until the emotions aren't running high and the decision becomes clear.

[Lovedtodeath]

This is the way I see it: A ship cannot have two captains. At some point, someone has to have the final decision on their shoulders. This final decision is the husband's responsibility. He is required to consider the opinion and needs of his wife and children.

[Tammy]

Why is the final decision the husband's?

[Lovedtodeath]

Sorry Tammy, I should have explained that is the way it works for Christians, including in my family.

 

For your family, maybe it would be best to have the final decision be on the wife's shoulders. Or to discuss who should make the decision due to the area of "expertise". My DH allows me to make the final decision on matters of schooling and health care, but I always ask for his opinion.

[Melinda in VT]

Well, whether or not I'm a Christian is a somewhat tricky question, but I know I'm not a submissive wife! ;)

 

So how do we handle disagreements since I don't automatically submit to his opinion/decision? It depends on the situation.

 

Sometimes, one of us feels passionately about the matter and it's just not as important to the other person. The one who feels passionately gets to make the decision.

 

Sometimes the decision impacts one partner more than the other. (For example, it's a decision about the kids and one of us is a SAHP.) The partner impacted most gets to make the decision.

 

Sometimes it's a huge decision that impacts everyone equally and we both feel passionately. We usually wait and discuss and wait until we come to an agreement. It's rare that we have to make a big decision *right then.*

 

We also talk, a lot. We try to be kind. We try to show the other person how much we love them. (Different things speak more loudly to us than others.)

 

It's worked surprisingly well for 15.5 years.

[KidsHappen]

I think if you read Dr. Laura's books, you'll get a good idea of the concept. She does drag in some scripture occasionally, but it's a lame attempt (IMO) to reach the Christians who may be reading her stuff. Her suggestions aren't really off from what Christian writers say regarding submission, but she doesn't call it that (IIRC). As Rosie said in the other thread, it's really more relational than a specific Christian concept, even though it's discussed in the Bible.

 

Basically, it's treating your dh and doing things for him that make him happy, even if you think they're goofy or silly. (These don't include anything that is demeaning) The point is to serve EACH OTHER, not for the woman to be a doormat. It's NOT OK for the man to take advantage of the woman or treat her as a second class citizen. He's to put her first; she's to put him first. It's more of a circular thing, not a ladder, if that makes any sense. I think the concepts can be applied regardless of one's spiritual convictions. :)

 

Thanks Michelle. This concept is something I can wrap my head around and certainly makes sense to me. :)

[Julie in Austin]

Well, whether or not I'm a Christian is a somewhat tricky question, but I know I'm not a submissive wife! ;)

 

So how do we handle disagreements since I don't automatically submit to his opinion/decision? It depends on the situation.

 

Sometimes, one of us feels passionately about the matter and it's just not as important to the other person. The one who feels passionately gets to make the decision.

 

Sometimes the decision impacts one partner more than the other. (For example, it's a decision about the kids and one of us is a SAHP.) The partner impacted most gets to make the decision.

 

Sometimes it's a huge decision that impacts everyone equally and we both feel passionately. We usually wait and discuss and wait until we come to an agreement. It's rare that we have to make a big decision *right then.*

 

We also talk, a lot. We try to be kind. We try to show the other person how much we love them. (Different things speak more loudly to us than others.)

 

It's worked surprisingly well for 15.5 years.

 

:iagree:

 

(I could have written this absolutely verbatim, except 13.5 years here!)

[Desert Rat]

Hmm, I read that thread because submission is a foreign concept to me as well and I always like to learn new things. LOL I don't agree with it either but I did get that kindness and selflessness is a big part of the whole submissive wife movement.

Basically, I play nice and I try not to grumble about doing stuff that I really don't want to do. This is just common sense, IMO. I find that if I b*tch and moan about all the housework and making special meals for him, etc, he feels resentful. If I'm nice, then things are lots smoother. It's the same with him.

I think after 15 years of marriage, we've worked out a system that's unique to us. Now that I stay home, bills, making calls about doctors, insurance, etc, cleaning and cooking fall on me. Car repairs, lawn care and picking up dead birds is all him. :o)

Submission doesn't play a part because I don't "defer" decisions to him. It's NOT his decision because we're in this together. This is the part of the submissive movement the I personally don't feel has a place in modern society. Marriage is a partnership and we run it as such. We each have final say in what happens and if can't agree, then we work it out until we reach a compromise. It's all about communication.

I don't know if this is what you were looking for but this is how our marriage works, and works well!

[chaik76]

Maybe it is the word "submission" that is the problem. Are you saying that you and your husband agree on everything? That there isn't a time that you would defer a decision to him after you've both discussed it? This can be the easy ones like what restaurant you'll go to or major purchases like buying a car. Submission to me doesn't mean I'm a doormat. We talk it over, I give my reasons, he gives his. Submission goes both ways. I defer to him sometimes and he defers to me. If it is a major decision that the other can't defer, then maybe the decision is "wait" until the emotions aren't running high and the decision becomes clear.

We actually use something called "enthusiastic agreement" where we must both enthusiastically agree before we decide to do something.

[SherryTX]

Well, I have to tell you I grew up in a religion where the husband got the final say in pretty much EVERYTHING - unless he was an "unbelieving mate" and the wife should still go to church whether he wanted her to or not.

 

Anyway, I don't agree with that form of submission. I knew too many families where a stupid husband made awful decisions for the family, and the wife went along whether she agreed with him or not. I also knew a few husbands that got frustrated because they really could have used someone's input - wanted their wives' input - but the women believed that the responsibility wasn't theirs so would shrug it off and say "your the head of the house - what you decide is best."

 

I also knew of two cases - extreme cases - where two wives had way more kids than they could handle because the husband refused to let her use birth control (birth control was not prohibited in this religion) because they wanted to keep having kids no matter what their wives wanted.

 

Anyway - I wouldn't use the term submissive when describing myself, except when talking about specific subjects. For example, I will "submit" to the final word my husband has on things like computer purchases and repairs because that is his area of expertise and he has never steered me wrong. However, unless it is a purchase or repair effecting only him, he always gets my input. Edited to add: He always checks with me before making major purchases, even if they are related to his areas of expertise because I have the task of managing the budget.

 

He also has the final say on car repairs (since he does most of them and knows more than me). Regarding home repair, he does most of it, and I will go with what he decides for repairs, but on decorating, we decide that TOGETHER.

 

If he asks me to do something, I usually will do it. If I won't I would have a very good reason and explain, and we may make a compromise, or he will have to do it. This rarely happens.

 

I am working on doing a better job of being responsible for my share of the load. I don't work full time right now, and I have been slacking around the house because I have felt beat down by illness, overwhelmed at times with some family issues, and job hunting like crazy. No good excuses, but while Christians may say I need to be more submission, I say I need to be more responsible.

 

I do my husband's laundry some times - it depends on how crazy work has been for him. But if he asks me to do it for him, I will, and I usually try to go ahead and do it for him without him asking. But if I don't, it isn't the end of the world. However, if we agreed that I am responsible for the house not being a mess, etc., and keeping the kids on track, and I don't - it isn't me being non-submissive, it is me being irresponsible.

 

I remember when I told a family friend that I was getting married. He was at my former church. He started talking about how I needed to be a submissive wife and I stated "NO! We both view marriage as a partnership - that is how we will handle it!"

 

I am glad I left religion altogether. There is no WAY I would be happy being married to a husband that expected me to be "submissive". A marriage based on reason than blind submission is a happier one, but that is just my opinion.

[KingM]

This is the way I see it: A ship cannot have two captains. At some point, someone has to have the final decision on their shoulders. This final decision is the husband's responsibility. He is required to consider the opinion and needs of his wife and children.

 

A marriage is not a ship though, it's a friendship, a romance, a partnership, and a series of negotiations. Like any marriage, my wife and I sometimes come to an intractable position, where neither of us wants to yield. So why should it be me who gets to say, "That's the way it is, and your duty is to submit?"

 

Instead, if the issue is more important to my wife, I yield, and if it's more important to me, I yield.

 

If not, well, you can call it submission, but that's just another word for domination.

[KingM]

Well, whether or not I'm a Christian is a somewhat tricky question, but I know I'm not a submissive wife! ;)

 

So how do we handle disagreements since I don't automatically submit to his opinion/decision? It depends on the situation.

 

Sometimes, one of us feels passionately about the matter and it's just not as important to the other person. The one who feels passionately gets to make the decision.

 

Sometimes the decision impacts one partner more than the other. (For example, it's a decision about the kids and one of us is a SAHP.) The partner impacted most gets to make the decision.

 

Sometimes it's a huge decision that impacts everyone equally and we both feel passionately. We usually wait and discuss and wait until we come to an agreement. It's rare that we have to make a big decision *right then.*

 

We also talk, a lot. We try to be kind. We try to show the other person how much we love them. (Different things speak more loudly to us than others.)

 

It's worked surprisingly well for 15.5 years.

 

Oh, I should have read this first, since I could have just said that I agreed.

 

Hi, honey. :seeya:

[Audrey]

because I find it such a foreign concept. The thought of 'submitting' to my dh would never happen in my world, LOL!

 

 

Nor in mine. My dh views the whole submission thing as "weak women lorded over by men who use dominant behaviour to make up for their lack of self-esteem." It is such a huge turn-off. I happen to agree with that. I don't do weak and insecure. Just. Not. Going. To. Happen.

 

We make most decisions together. Some things are more his bailiwick; other things are more mine. For ex., I don't try to make decisions regarding farm machinery, crop rotation and such because although I understand them a little, I certainly don't understand them to the depth dh does. Likewise, he doesn't try to make decisions on our budget because that's my area of expertise. While he certainly knows what the budget is and uses it as much as I do, he leaves decisions on changes up to me.

 

I think it is thoroughly unhealthy for children to be in a situation where parents are not mutually respectful and cooperative with each other. Stereotypes in roles are not just passé, they set kids up for unrealistic expectations. As a human being, you need to be able to take on any role that is required of you. You never know when it may suddenly all be up to you to manage everything.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Audrey

[Kissy]

Well, whether or not I'm a Christian is a somewhat tricky question, but I know I'm not a submissive wife! ;)

 

So how do we handle disagreements since I don't automatically submit to his opinion/decision? It depends on the situation.

 

Sometimes, one of us feels passionately about the matter and it's just not as important to the other person. The one who feels passionately gets to make the decision.

 

Sometimes the decision impacts one partner more than the other. (For example, it's a decision about the kids and one of us is a SAHP.) The partner impacted most gets to make the decision.

 

Sometimes it's a huge decision that impacts everyone equally and we both feel passionately. We usually wait and discuss and wait until we come to an agreement. It's rare that we have to make a big decision *right then.*

 

We also talk, a lot. We try to be kind. We try to show the other person how much we love them. (Different things speak more loudly to us than others.)

 

It's worked surprisingly well for 15.5 years.

 

I am a Christian and very devout but this is how we work too. I believe in any relationship there has to be give and take marriage is no different. If I do not feel passionately or do not care then my hubby will make the decision but if I do then he steps back and let me make the decision. If later on a decision goes bad the other person always shares in that too..there is never this well you made the decision so I guess it is your fault. We both feel equal. Because of how we do things I can truly say my husband is my best friend and I trust him so much. I don't think I could feel that way if I just let him make the decisions or override mine.

[Lovedtodeath]

Nor in mine. My dh views the whole submission thing as "weak women lorded over by men who use dominant behaviour to make up for their lack of self-esteem." It is such a huge turn-off. I happen to agree with that. I don't do weak and insecure. Just. Not. Going. To. Happen.

Yes, that is where people are not applying the principle correctly. Like in Sherry's examples, it can lead to unhappy marriages and worse. If "submission" in this way is Biblical, then why did Abraham's God tell him to listen to his wife?

 

We make most decisions together. Some things are more his bailiwick; other things are more mine. For ex., I don't try to make decisions regarding farm machinery, crop rotation and such because although I understand them a little, I certainly don't understand them to the depth dh does. Likewise, he doesn't try to make decisions on our budget because that's my area of expertise. While he certainly knows what the budget is and uses it as much as I do, he leaves decisions on changes up to me.

 

I think it is thoroughly unhealthy for children to be in a situation where parents are not mutually respectful and cooperative with each other. Stereotypes in roles are not just passé, they set kids up for unrealistic expectations. As a human being, you need to be able to take on any role that is required of you. You never know when it may suddenly all be up to you to manage everything.

I actually agree with all of this! :D Edited July 11, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Audrey]

Yes, that is where people are not applying the principle correctly. Like in Sherry's examples, it can lead to unhappy marriages and worse. If "submission" in this way is Biblical, then why did Abraham's God tell him to listen to his wife?

 

 

 

Yes, that may be the 'biblical' principle of it, but the OP was addressing submission and NON-christians. The way THIS non-christian views it, submission is about male emotional and physical domination over a woman. IMO, that equals oppressive male and weak woman. From the outside, looking in, that is how "submission" appears to me.

[SherryTX]

Yes, that is where people are not applying the principle correctly. Like in Sherry's examples, it can lead to unhappy marriages and worse. If "submission" in this way is Biblical, then why did Abraham's God tell him to listen to his wife?

 

I actually agree with all of this! :D

 

I think that is why there are sooo many different types of marriages even within Christianity. Because different ones have a different interpretation about what submission is from a biblical standpoint.

 

Know what I think is funny? In the movie, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, the father ran the show - even to where his children were working. However, when the main character wanted to go to college (she was like 30) she went to her mom and was upset she didn't think her father would allow it. Her mother looked at her and said something like "The husband man be the head of the family, but the wife is the neck and makes the head turn" hahah.

 

Anyway - yeah God told Abraham to listen to his wife -but in my book it is pretty sad that a man would have to have his pastor or God tell him to ever listen to his wife.

 

Personally, I blame all this on apostle Paul...I personally think he was a women hater and took things way too far when it came to keeping the women down in Christianity. I think there are more strong women examples in the Old Testament than the New Testament. But I guess that would be for another thread.....

[dragons in the flower bed]

I am really non even sure how to word this question. I am not a Christian and this is a completely foreign concept to me. To me this seems like a power struggle issue and I can not imagine any situation in which I would submit to my hubby.

 

 

How about this one? Your MIL is coming over for dinner, and your husband calls from work to say, "Oh, by the way, don't make bread! I hate eating it in front of my mom. She always looks pointedly at the crumbs on my shirt." Now, you've already made bread, in fact, you made it just so his mom could have your yummy fresh bread, so you...

 

1) Skirt the subject, then at dinner stick it on the table anyway.

 

2) Suggest that he could just not eat it. His mom won't notice if he skips your fresh bread.

 

Number 1 would be passive aggressive and mean. Number 2 would be, I think, normal and healthy.

 

But there's an issue with 2. He thinks his mom will notice he's not trying your bread and say something snarky. You think he's being ridiculous. Do you...

 

A) Argue until you have to get on with your day, then both come to dinner tense.

 

B) Accept that he is weird about this, explain that you already made it, and ask him if he thinks you should wrap the bread up and leave it in the bread box or send it home with his mom as a gift.

 

B would be submissive behavior. A would be power struggle behavior.

 

My partner and I tend to be submissive to each other. Neither of us have much stomach for conflict, and we're both forgiving of each others' quirks and insanities.

 

 

 

My question is how other non-Christians deal with issues in which the Christian answer would be for the wife to submit to the husband. If wifely submission is not an option then what are the options? :confused:

 

It would depend on the situation. There's a whole arsenal of conflict resolution tools available to anyone who can Google. Submission is just one of them.

[Melinda in VT]

A marriage is not a ship though, it's a friendship, a romance, a partnership, and a series of negotiations. Like any marriage, my wife and I sometimes come to an intractable position, where neither of us wants to yield. So why should it be me who gets to say, "That's the way it is, and your duty is to submit?"

 

Instead, if the issue is more important to my wife, I yield, and if it's more important to me, I yield.

 

If not, well, you can call it submission, but that's just another word for domination.

 

[bolding mine]

 

*cough* Uh, Sweetheart? Is there something we need to talk about?:D

 

Those Freudian slips will get you every time.

[swimmermom3]

This is the way I see it: A ship cannot have two captains. At some point, someone has to have the final decision on their shoulders. This final decision is the husband's responsibility. He is required to consider the opinion and needs of his wife and children.

 

I have really struggled with the "submission" threads. I also don't see the one ship-one captain deal. Lovedtodeath-I'm not arguing or putting the concept down. I really don't see it when applied to a marriage-or at least my marriage.

 

When a decision needs to be made, if there is uncertainty, the "specialist" makes the decision. This could be dh or myself depending on the type of decision and usually who has the most information. This man can do laundry and I know where the dipstick is on my car. I've hung sheetrock and stacked firewood and dh is a far superior cook. We both just do what needs to be done, regardless of whose job it is.

 

Love and mutual respect, I get. Submission to the captain? Nope. Submission and needing a designated leader imply an atmosphere of strife to me. Does this just mean I want to be captain. No way! Historically, captains and CEOs are the guys who go down with the ship or who go to jail when things go wrong.:D

[dragons in the flower bed]

[bolding mine]

 

*cough* Uh, Sweetheart? Is there something we need to talk about?:D

 

Those Freudian slips will get you every time.

 

I saw this too and wondered if he did it on purpose. Either way, it made me LOL! :lol::D

[lionfamily1999]

How about this one? Your MIL is coming over for dinner, and your husband calls from work to say, "Oh, by the way, don't make bread! I hate eating it in front of my mom. She always looks pointedly at the crumbs on my shirt." Now, you've already made bread, in fact, you made it just so his mom could have your yummy fresh bread, so you...

 

1) Skirt the subject, then at dinner stick it on the table anyway.

 

2) Suggest that he could just not eat it. His mom won't notice if he skips your fresh bread.

 

Number 1 would be passive aggressive and mean. Number 2 would be, I think, normal and healthy.

 

But there's an issue with 2. He thinks his mom will notice he's not trying your bread and say something snarky. You think he's being ridiculous. Do you...

 

A) Argue until you have to get on with your day, then both come to dinner tense.

 

B) Accept that he is weird about this, explain that you already made it, and ask him if he thinks you should wrap the bread up and leave it in the bread box or send it home with his mom as a gift.

 

B would be submissive behavior. A would be power struggle behavior.

 

My partner and I tend to be submissive to each other. Neither of us have much stomach for conflict, and we're both forgiving of each others' quirks and insanities.

 

 

 

 

 

It would depend on the situation. There's a whole arsenal of conflict resolution tools available to anyone who can Google. Submission is just one of them.

You missed one option :)

 

Plop the bread on a plate and put it in the living room (or other room) as something to munch on while you wait. That's what I would've done. Then, they can both eat it and enjoy it, but dh can eat his in the kitchen, hiding from his mom, which would, frankly, irritate the bejeeminies out of me, but be better than having her being snarky during dinner.

 

ETA... where in the world would that put me???

Edited July 11, 2009 by lionfamily1999

[swimmermom3]

A marriage is not a ship though, it's a friendship, a romance, a partnership, and a series of negotiations. Like any marriage, my wife and I sometimes come to an intractable position, where neither of us wants to yield. So why should it be me who gets to say, "That's the way it is, and your duty is to submit?"

 

Instead, if the issue is more important to my wife, I yield, and if it's more important to me, I yield.

 

If not, well, you can call it submission, but that's just another word for domination.

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol: I should have read both of your posts before I responded. You've accurately described the way things work in our home too (except for dh yielding on all accounts:D).

[stripe]

But there's an issue with 2. He thinks his mom will notice he's not trying your bread and say something snarky. You think he's being ridiculous. Do you...

 

A) Argue until you have to get on with your day, then both come to dinner tense.

 

B) Accept that he is weird about this, explain that you already made it, and ask him if he thinks you should wrap the bread up and leave it in the bread box or send it home with his mom as a gift.

 

B would be submissive behavior. A would be power struggle behavior.

 

I think B would be a further attempt at negotiation/clarification. I'd imagine that "submitting" in this situation would be to say, "Yes, dear" and put the bread away. I don't imagine "submitting" has room for argument or discussion. But that's how I interpret it. In at least some cases, I can imagine that someone would say, "Oh -- you already made it -- never mind then," or something along those lines, since it wasn't clear he even knew you'd made the bread.

[KidsHappen]

Well, whether or not I'm a Christian is a somewhat tricky question, but I know I'm not a submissive wife! ;)

 

So how do we handle disagreements since I don't automatically submit to his opinion/decision? It depends on the situation.

 

Sometimes, one of us feels passionately about the matter and it's just not as important to the other person. The one who feels passionately gets to make the decision.

 

Sometimes the decision impacts one partner more than the other. (For example, it's a decision about the kids and one of us is a SAHP.) The partner impacted most gets to make the decision.

 

Sometimes it's a huge decision that impacts everyone equally and we both feel passionately. We usually wait and discuss and wait until we come to an agreement. It's rare that we have to make a big decision *right then.*

 

We also talk, a lot. We try to be kind. We try to show the other person how much we love them. (Different things speak more loudly to us than others.)

 

It's worked surprisingly well for 15.5 years.

 

This is very similar to how we handle things. Sometimes I really have no opinion so he makes the decision. Other times it is the other way around. When we disagree then we usually defer to whomever feels the strongest about the matter. I have no idea how we would handle it if we felt equally strongly about something that we disagreed on as I can't recall it ever happening. That's not to say that we never have problems or that all decisions are made quickly and easily. Some issues take time and lots of discussion and work but neither of us would arbitrarily submit to the other. Sometimes the most difficult decision are ones which must be made and neither of us care to make the decision.

 

We do have a very traditional distribution of labor and our own spheres of influence. We also break up some chores non traditionally as one of us may have a really distaste for a certain chore that the other does not mind at all. For instance, I do not make phone calls therefore my hubby takes on that task whereas I handle all bugs, mice snakes and haunted bathtubs. I handle late night problems whereas my hubby handles early morning issues. This is pretty much the way we have always done things and it has worked for us for 19 years now.

[KidsHappen]

[bolding mine]

 

*cough* Uh, Sweetheart? Is there something we need to talk about?:D

 

Those Freudian slips will get you every time.

 

 

:lol:

[kiana]

Although the captain may be in ultimate charge of the ship, if the engines break down, he tells the engineer to fix them ASAP. He doesn't tell the engineer *how* to fix them. :)

[swimmermom3]

 

I think it is thoroughly unhealthy for children to be in a situation where parents are not mutually respectful and cooperative with each other. Stereotypes in roles are not just passé, they set kids up for unrealistic expectations. As a human being, you need to be able to take on any role that is required of you. You never know when it may suddenly all be up to you to manage everything.

 

This part is so important. Several years ago, I developed an unstoppable nosebleed (I was 5 months pregnant) just before our guests arrived for Thanksgiving dinner. This resulted in a couple of trips to ER and 4 days in the hospital. When I came home, the bathroom and the clothes I had been wearing in ER were spotless. Our two young ones had been well-cared for. Knowing that my dh was fully capable of caring for our children was a huge relief for me.

 

On the other hand, my dh has traveled extensively through the years. He knows that while he is in Japan, the yard work will still get done and he won't be overwhelmed when he gets home. Being able to do both jobs doesn't make us feel that the other person is unnecessary. It just makes us much more grateful to have each other.

[KidsHappen]

"The husband man be the head of the family, but the wife is the neck and makes the head turn"

 

 

Whenever my dc come to me and ask to do something that I don't think their father will agree to or support this is always their reply. :tongue_smilie:

[dragons in the flower bed]

I think B would be a further attempt at negotiation/clarification. I'd imagine that "submitting" in this situation would be to say, "Yes, dear" and put the bread away. I don't imagine "submitting" has room for argument or discussion. But that's how I interpret it. In at least some cases, I can imagine that someone would say, "Oh -- you already made it -- never mind then," or something along those lines, since it wasn't clear he even knew you'd made the bread.

 

Well, yes, but cooperative husbands aren't helpful for demonstrative purposes. :D

 

I guess I think of that, "Yes, dear," scenario as theatrical submission, something you'd do if you were pretending to be Jane Cleaver, if you were eager to make your partner feel like a Dominant Man. But it's not a way to get along every day on the day to day stuff. And really, even when I'm feeling like a Dominant (Wo)Man, and I admit I have such mood swings, I still want all the facts so I can make a decision. So, it wouldn't be continued negotiation; it would be offering extra clarification while letting the other know you were willing to submit in this.

 

For example, with my kids, something like the following would not be okay.

 

Me: "No, no more cookies for you."

Kid: "WHYYYY??!!"

 

But the following would be okay.

 

Me: "No, no more cookies for you."

Kid: "Okay. May I ask why?"

 

One seeks to change the other person's mind; the other seeks to understand the other person's mind.

[KingM]

Instead, if the issue is more important to my wife, I yield, and if it's more important to me, I yield.

 

 

Oops. How embarrassing. :blushing:

[BlsdMama]

I can not imagine any situation in which I would submit to my hubby.

 

Really?

 

So are you saying you always get your way or you always agree? Because someone IS submitting in any relationship.

 

For us submission isn't having a voice... It's when a decision ultimately needs to be made. To be fair, I have one of those dh's that I could trust to the ends of the earth to make a GOOD choice for our family and in their best interests. If there is something he's insistent on I can assume he has their best interests at heart, even if it wasn't something I was excited about.

 

I don't know that you would notice what submission is in our house. So many people think it looks like whipped puppy with it's tail between it's legs.

:) What it really looks like? A husband who loves his wife and a wife who loves her husband and both are willing to give some. And when there is just no easy decision to be made? When both have firm beliefs on a matter? Well then it's having faith IN GOD that He has confirmed something to our husbands He has not yet confirmed in us and we follow out of love of God. I'd like to say it's because I like my husband so darn much (I do) BUT when you really, really want to push an issue and get your way, it's the love of God that inspires you to give in, not love of your husband. But the love of husband goes a good long way to soothing the pride, lol. ;)

[stripe]

I think it's not healthy if either partner is brow-beaten into "submission." That's not the sort of marriage I am aiming for, anyway. Hopefully both appreciate their spouse's intelligence and good judgment, and neither feels that the other must be told what to do or else all will collapse.

[OnTheBrink]

I think that sometimes (a lot of times) submission is thought of as being the same as being dominated. I think many times one spouse will dominate the other, and that's how submission is viewed--one is dominating, one is cowering. That's really not what true marital submission is. It's too bad the word has gotten such a bad connotation. People submit every day. EX: Mary and Jane go to lunch. Mary really wants Mexican, Jane wants Chinese. Someone has to give and submit to the wishes of the other. In a healthy friendship, whoever submitted will pick the restaurant next time. Submission isn't domination. In a healthy scenario, it goes both ways. Any time someone gives in and doesn't demand their own way, they've submitted to the wishes or needs of someone else.

 

I think more people practice this than what they think. ;)

[Dobela]

I think that sometimes (a lot of times) submission is thought of as being the same as being dominated. I think many times one spouse will dominate the other, and that's how submission is viewed--one is dominating, one is cowering. That's really not what true marital submission is. It's too bad the word has gotten such a bad connotation. People submit every day. EX: Mary and Jane go to lunch. Mary really wants Mexican, Jane wants Chinese. Someone has to give and submit to the wishes of the other. In a healthy friendship, whoever submitted will pick the restaurant next time. Submission isn't domination. In a healthy scenario, it goes both ways. Any time someone gives in and doesn't demand their own way, they've submitted to the wishes or needs of someone else.

 

I think more people practice this than what they think. ;)

:iagree: As a Christian I will say in Christian circles that I submit. For most Christians that just means we negotiate and respect each other. My dh makes some decisions, I make others. For that 3rd category, we discuss and come to a decission together. For really tough decisions, or ones I dont really care about, I gie him the responsibilty of the final choice. We know our strengths and weaknesses and consider those in making decisions. No where in the Bible does submision mean we as women are to have no opinion, or that the husband is not to respect the wife, or that the wife is lowly. The woman in Proverbs 31 that so many refers to is a business woman and a good manager of the home - that means she has to be making lots of decisions on her own. To me it's like being the CEO of a company. The CEO is the head and makes most decisions - but only after being given the up to date information of the experts within the company. In our family I decided that my dh would be the CEO. I present him with all sorts of facts, we then come to a decision together, and I go with it. Now, since I am the most verbal and outspoken of the two of us, most people think I rule the nest LOL.

[HRAAB]

Both my dh and I come from a Christian background, but the idea of wifely submission was not something either one of us were familiar with. For a short while I toyed with the idea, mainly due to outside influences of a homeschooling group. My dh was not at all impressed with it. (I was going through quite a faith crisis at the time which has landed me outside traditional Christianity.) It was not the principle upon which we married. However, I have seen marriages thrive under those principles, and I have also seen a couple marriages suffer. In the cases where the marriage suffered, I would say it wasn't being implemented as I understood it should. And that's where it gets tricky.

 

Anyway, from the beginning we viewed our marriage more as a partnership, both of us equally responsible for working towards the good of our marriage and family. We both agreed that pride and wanting our own way would only ruin our marriage, so we try (and fail) to keep pride out of it. Many times my dh takes the lead, and then there are many times I take the lead and he steps back. As he has said many times, he trusts my judgment; and I trust his. If I felt extremely passionate about something, he would not say 'no'. In fact, he has never said 'no' to me in 24 years of marraige, as I have never told him 'no'. He's a grown adult man, I'm a grown adult woman. But if the something I was really passionate about was detrimental to family life, he would point it out as I would do for him. That's where selfishness doesn't fit in - you don't always get your way. There's been many times I know he has given up what he truly wanted at the moment because it wasn't in the best interest of our family. That's maturity.

 

I also try hard to meet his needs. When dh was working, he left around 5 AM. I would get up to get his breakfast and put his lunch together. I often times fix his favorite meal or do little things I know he likes. Not because some Biblical principle said I had to, but because I love him. Now under ideal circumstances, those Biblical prinicples are there to guide you in such matters, but love should be the overarching principle. Or that's my take. If a wife is only doing it because it's what she has to do to be Godly or accepted by her church community, etc., I think there's a good chance there will be negative repercussions. The good marriages I know of where the wife is submissive, I see it being done out of love, not duty. Oh, and all those little extra things I do get repaid many times over.

 

I do detest the word submission. It reminds me of a hierarchial relationship which I do not believe is marriage. Marriage is between two adults with free will. Submission, to me, implies that one party has less free will, or at least buries her free will, in order to give all the authority to another. Of course, the Christian women I knew believed they were being obedient to Christ by being obedient to their husbands, so it all gets tied up in Biblical interpretation, etc. Anyway, when dh takes the lead, I don't call it submission, but working together, or putting my personal needs on the back burner temporarily, for the good of the whole family. Dh has no problem with letting me take the lead, and I'm sure he would never define himself as submissive, just doing what is best.

 

Janet

Edited July 11, 2009 by Ishki
Typo

[TXMomof4]

Nor in mine. My dh views the whole submission thing as "weak women lorded over by men who use dominant behaviour to make up for their lack of self-esteem." It is such a huge turn-off. I happen to agree with that. I don't do weak and insecure. Just. Not. Going. To. Happen.

 

We make most decisions together. Some things are more his bailiwick; other things are more mine. For ex., I don't try to make decisions regarding farm machinery, crop rotation and such because although I understand them a little, I certainly don't understand them to the depth dh does. Likewise, he doesn't try to make decisions on our budget because that's my area of expertise. While he certainly knows what the budget is and uses it as much as I do, he leaves decisions on changes up to me.

 

I think it is thoroughly unhealthy for children to be in a situation where parents are not mutually respectful and cooperative with each other. Stereotypes in roles are not just passé, they set kids up for unrealistic expectations. As a human being, you need to be able to take on any role that is required of you. You never know when it may suddenly all be up to you to manage everything.

 

 

Wow. I never thought of myself as weak or insecure and I guarantee you my husband has pretty good self-esteem. If you read any of the responses on the other thread about submission - it isn't that the husband gets his own way and the wife bows down to his superior wisdom. That isn't even a biblical example. It's that a husband honors his wife and she honors him in return. I hate the word submission because it brings up exactly the response above. I am a perfectly capable woman who runs this household - dh does bring home the paycheck, but I'm the one who pays the bills, makes sure things are invested wisely, arrange for repairs if needed, dr. visits, etc. DH has his own responsibilities within the marriage - when he's not deployed. However, I respect his wishes and desires. I take his advice when he offers it, I value and honor his input. I try very hard to make this a home he is glad to come home to because I love him and respect him. There's not the thought anywhere that he's better than I am or superior to me. And I would say we have a very scripturaly based marriage. Surely you've heard of the Prov. 31 woman - the verse about a woman of noble character is also translated as a woman of courage. I like that translation much better and feel it's much more accurate in my case.

[HRAAB]

I think that sometimes (a lot of times) submission is thought of as being the same as being dominated. I think many times one spouse will dominate the other, and that's how submission is viewed--one is dominating, one is cowering. That's really not what true marital submission is. It's too bad the word has gotten such a bad connotation. People submit every day. EX: Mary and Jane go to lunch. Mary really wants Mexican, Jane wants Chinese. Someone has to give and submit to the wishes of the other. In a healthy friendship, whoever submitted will pick the restaurant next time. Submission isn't domination. In a healthy scenario, it goes both ways. Any time someone gives in and doesn't demand their own way, they've submitted to the wishes or needs of someone else.

 

I think more people practice this than what they think. ;)

 

Now see, the way you describe submission is common sense, charity, give and take. The issue I have is that it's always referred to as 'wifely submission'. Of course, the husband is commanded to love his wife as Christ loved the church, which is a huge command. Still, only the wife is commanded to submit although I know many Christians who interpret it as mutual submission, but I do not gather that from my reading of Scripture. I still see a difference between the two friends eating lunch - who are on entirely equal footing, one not being commanded to submit - and in a marriage where the wife is the one commanded to submit.

 

Anyway, I like your definition of submission.

 

Janet

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Yes, that may be the 'biblical' principle of it, but the OP was addressing submission and NON-christians. The way THIS non-christian views it, submission is about male emotional and physical domination over a woman. IMO, that equals oppressive male and weak woman. From the outside, looking in, that is how "submission" appears to me.

Okey Dokey! and you are right, it is what most people think submission means.

[swimmermom3]

Both my dh and I come from a Christian background, but the idea of wifely submission was not something either one of us were familiar with. For a short while I toyed with the idea, mainly due to outside influences of a homeschooling group. My dh was not at all impressed with it. (I was going through quite a faith crisis at the time which has landed me outside traditional Christianity.) It was not the principle upon which we married. However, I have seen marriages thrive under those principles, and I have also seen a couple marriages suffer. In the cases where the marriage suffered, I would say it wasn't being implemented as I understood it should. And that's where it gets tricky.

 

Anyway, from the beginning we viewed our marriage more as a partnership, both of us equally responsible for working towards the good of our marriage and family. We both agreed that pride and wanting our own way would only ruin our marriage, so we try (and fail) to keep pride out of it. Many times my dh takes the lead, and then there are many times I take the lead and he steps back. As he has said many times, he trusts my judgment; and I trust his. If I felt extremely passionate about something, he would not say 'no'. In fact, he has never said 'no' to me in 24 years of marraige, as I have never told him 'no'. He's a grown adult man, I'm a grown adult woman. But if the something I was really passionage about was detrimental to family life, he would point it out as I would do for him. That's where selfishness doesn't fit in - you don't always get your way. There's been many times I know he has given up what he truly wanted at the moment because it wasn't in the best interest of our family. That's maturity.

 

I also try hard to meet his needs. When dh was working, he left around 5 AM. I would get up to get his breakfast and put his lunch together. I often times fix his favorite meal or do little things I know he likes. Not because some Biblical principle waid I had to, but because I love him. Now under ideal circumstances, those Biblical prinicples are there to guide you in such matters, but love should be the overarching principle. Or that's my take. If a wife is only doing it because it's what she has to do to be Godly or accepted by her church community, etc., I think there's a good chance there will be negative repercussions. The good marriages I know of where the wife is submissive, I see it being done out of love, not duty. Oh, and all those little extra things I do get repaid many times over.

 

I do detest the word submission. It reminds me of a hierachial relationship which I do not believe is marriage. Marriage is between two adults with free will. Submission, to me, implies that one party has less free will, or at least buries her free will, in order to give all the authority to another. Of course, the Christian women I knew believed they were being obedient to Christ by being obedient to their husbands, so it all gets tied up in Biblical interpretation, etc. Anyway, when dh takes the lead, I don't call it submission, but working together, or putting my personal needs on the back burner temporarily, for the good of the whole family. Dh has no problem with letting me take the lead, and I'm sure he would never definie himself as submissive, just doing what is best.

 

Janet

 

Thanks Janet. You expressed beautifully what I have struggled to find the words for. I was wondering if you, or KingM, or any of the other posters who don't base their marriage on Biblical precepts reach that point in the decision-making process that some of the Christian posters have described. I had to ask my dh (his memory is much better than mine) if in the 20 years we've been married, he could remember a serious decision that required a leader stepping forward. He couldn't.

 

I don't think this is because we have a perfect marriage. We can easily bicker about the little things. But when it comes to a major decision, we usually come at it from similar backgrounds, beliefs, likes and dislikes, and goals for our family. It's usually easy to stand as one one on large issues, but not about burping at the table.:D

[HRAAB]

Oh, I had one more thought on this submission thing. I truly believe the man has the biggest and most difficult commandment - according to my understanding of the Biblical teaching. Not only was he commanded to love his wife as Christ loved the church, which could literally mean stretching out your arms and being crucified - interpret that to mean whatever in today's world, but that he has to constantly guard against his own pride and ego and desire to put himself first. What a temptation not to let his own ego and pride get the best of him and take advantage of that submissive wife. To always put the family first and not let the authority go to his head, I believe, takes a very strong, dedicated and humble man.

 

And therein lies my biggest issue with wifely submission...

 

Janet

[swimmermom3]

Wow. I never thought of myself as weak or insecure and I guarantee you my husband has pretty good self-esteem. If you read any of the responses on the other thread about submission - it isn't that the husband gets his own way and the wife bows down to his superior wisdom. That isn't even a biblical example. It's that a husband honors his wife and she honors him in return. I hate the word submission because it brings up exactly the response above. I am a perfectly capable woman who runs this household - dh does bring home the paycheck, but I'm the one who pays the bills, makes sure things are invested wisely, arrange for repairs if needed, dr. visits, etc. DH has his own responsibilities within the marriage - when he's not deployed. However, I respect his wishes and desires. I take his advice when he offers it, I value and honor his input. I try very hard to make this a home he is glad to come home to because I love him and respect him. There's not the thought anywhere that he's better than I am or superior to me. And I would say we have a very scripturaly based marriage. Surely you've heard of the Prov. 31 woman - the verse about a woman of noble character is also translated as a woman of courage. I like that translation much better and feel it's much more accurate in my case.

 

You are describing a marriage similar to several of those posted here. We (my dh) and I just don't think of ours as Christian-based. If I have a negative attitude towards "wifely submission" it is because of my personal view regarding religion and women. Too often, I think human interpretation by men who don't like women or who do view them as property or as inferior beings has come into play in religious writings of numerous faiths. I think many of the religious beliefs regarding a "woman's place" are humanly dictated, not divinely-inspired.

[HRAAB]

Thanks Janet. You expressed beautifully what I have struggled to find the words for. I was wondering if you, or KingM, or any of the other posters who don't base their marriage on Biblical precepts reach that point in the decision-making process that some of the Christian posters have described. I had to ask my dh (his memory is much better than mine) if in the 20 years we've been married, he could remember a serious decision that required a leader stepping forward. He couldn't.

 

I don't think this is because we have a perfect marriage. We can easily bicker about the little things. But when it comes to a major decision, we usually come at it from similar backgrounds, beliefs, likes and dislikes, and goals for our family. It's usually easy to stand as one one on large issues, but not about burping at the table.:D

 

Do you mean where one or the other steps forward and says, "I'm taking over, that's final."?? No, that's never happened. It's never gone that far. There have been times where either dh or I have stepped back and given the other the reins. One time we were really on opposite ends about a financial investment, we both had strong feelings. I finally told him to think it over carefully (he always does), remember my feelings and then go with his gut. Primarily I did this because he was the sole wage earner, and since he was the one out there breaking his back earning money so I could stay home, it seemed reasonable that after voicing my opinion (I'm not quiet), that he should have the final say. He has done the same thing and given me the reins when we weren't getting anywhere. So I suppose someone could say I submitted, or he submitted, but I don't see it as submission, but choosing to step back. But then again it could just be semantics.

 

You are describing a marriage similar to several of those posted here. We (my dh) and I just don't think of ours as Christian-based. If I have a negative attitude towards "wifely submission" it is because of my personal view regarding religion and women. Too often, I think human interpretation by men who don't like women or who do view them as property or as inferior beings has come into play in religious writings of numerous faiths. I think many of the religious beliefs regarding a "woman's place" are humanly dictated, not divinely-inspired.

 

The bolded part describes my feelings also. However, it wouldn't be accurate to say our marriage isn't based on Christian principles, even I can no longer call myself a Christian, since both dh and I were raised Catholic and had instilled in us the belief in the sanctity of marriage. Even though my theology has done a 180, I still have very strong feelings about marriage and they come from my upbringing, and faith was a big part of that.

 

When we married, we spent many hours discussing what we believed about marriage. We both agreed that we would eventually end up letting the other one down somehow, simply because we're human. You can argue original sin and all that, but whatever the cause, humans tend to fail occasionally. We both felt we were 100% committed to marriage, or as Catholics, to the Sacrament of Marriage. When dh failed me, or I failed him, we were still committed to the marriage. Of course, if both spouses aren't committed to the marriage, it isn't going to work. It takes two. Fortunately, nothing so major ever happened that I felt I could no longer be committed to the marriage. The few times that things were very rough in our marriage, I always came back to being committed to the marriage and it kept me going forward. It is also that belief that helps me back off when I need to, and helps dh to step down when he needs to. So there are Christian principles involved in our marraige along with what I consider a lot of common sense.

 

Janet