NCMom Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) yeah --you're right! so.....The people that organize the Miss Black America pageant are a bunch of low life scum who deserve every bit of ridicule they get. Red herring. We are talking about a specific instance where racial prejudice may have motivated a club to kick out a day camp out of a pool. A day camp that they previously accepted money from, knowing the numbers etc. but possibly not the skin color of the campers. And I never said anything about anyone's character or ridiculed anyone, nor did I see anyone else do so on this thread. This sort of discrimination is allowed most everywhere. Every person, every club, and every pool makes their own choices about who they embrace and allow to use their facilities. The only thing it shows, if it is true is that this is part of the reason they kicked them out, is that prejudice is still alive and well out there. Most people already acknowledge that. That's all I am saying. And I think it bears saying 'cause for my childrens' sake it sometimes needs acknowledging. (Maybe not here and now, so this will probably be my last post! lol) Note that my girls are probably only slightly more likely to be allowed into the "Miss Black America" contest than they would be allowed into a whites only country club. Something to think about. :001_smile: Georgia Edited July 9, 2009 by Georgia in NC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessedfamily Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) ........ and if we're going to villify a private club for excluding black children, can we villify the private black organizations that exclude white children? i'm game for doing both. yeah --you're right! so.....The people that organize the Miss Black America pageant are a bunch of low life scum who deserve every bit of ridicule they get. I watched a man on Cspan who was the president of The National Association of Black Journalists?( I think that was the name, but I'm not sure). He was answering calls, and someone asked pretty much the same question. She asked, very respectfully, why you'd have an association of black journalists, and wouldn't it be racist if she started a national association of white journalists. The gentleman said the answer was that there already is an association of white journalists. It's called the National Journalists Association (again not sure about the name). It just left off the word "white" even though their bylaws expressly excluded blacks from joining. So they started the National Black Journalists Assoc for black people who were good journailsts. ( I'm not sure about the names of the organizations that were mentioned and I could have them wrong, but it had something to do with journalists.) So, most of these organizations were started because black people were excluded by organizations that call themselves national this or that professional organization. You wouldn't have needed "The Negro League" of baseball if the "American Baseball League" wasn't only for whites. The issues would then be: 1)Though many of these organizations did expressly exclude blacks, are they now open to all, and if so, do you need an alternative organization for blacks any longer? (Like you no longer need the Negro Leagues of baseball) There is actually much debate about this in the AA community. Some feel they aren't needed, but many feel they shouldn't be "tossed out". 2)This, to me, does not apply to organizations that just don't have many black people who are interested or who "made the cut". That's different from express exclusion. I do realize that exclusions can be done underhandedly, but sometimes that's just not the case. Edited July 9, 2009 by Blessedfamily Added info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Well, you can go on and on for pages about this, and knowing this board I'm sure that's what will happen. I think the bottom line is that it's too bad it happened but they have a right to keep their private pool private. I grew up in a private country club atmosphere/mindset/neighborhood. No one joined that wasn't approved. Yep, go ahead and holler about the kids' rights. Yeah, they have rights. Joining any club they want isn't one of them. If people want to be bigoted you aren't going to stop them by taking away their rights, you're just going to make them madder and more bitter and convince them they are right. Remudamom, your posts have a way of knocking me off my "high horse" before I can even get on.;) I have had to look at this from both sides. Discrimination like this, especially when it involves children, infuriates me. In my book, it's just wrong. However, the club is a private club and I believe they can do pretty much as they please. I think there is something about "public accommodation" - do they let the public use their facilities for weddings, fund raisers, etc., that can come into play. I doubt that's the case with this club. Like many facilities across the country, they may have found themselves short of cash and decided to rent the pool to the day camp during off hours. One of the things that intrigues me is the way this was handled. Club member tempers must have been hot to have actually had the kids get out of the water and leave. Managment (not the same as ownership) must have been under heavy pressure. They could have let the kids finish swimming, called the organization the next day, told them they were sorry that scheduling problems had come up, and then refunded their money (unless that messed up the contract). In that case, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in CA Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Here's how Anne responded in a p.m. "And when I was speaking of my white Northern European neighbors who chose to promote and display this sort of racism, I think vanilla is a suitable term for that kind of scum." Sooo...I guess that the terms "chocolate" and "vanilla" are out for me, because they are clearly racial epithets. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtroad Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Multiple issues.... private club (but had given group permission).... racist comments (by some at the club, employee and not)..... large group of outsiders (regardless of race, the sheer number of strangers overwhelmed some)... poor communication & planning by club to employees... poor communication & planning by campers leaders media always inflames (who knows what is most accurate) our area pools set up special swim times for large groups (why was this not done - regardless of race) sad mess of things! Thank God it wasn't done in Alabama! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlowetx Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Yeah, I agree that there are multiple issues here. Private clubs can have their own rules - my husband and I argue about this every year while he is watching the Masters in one room and I refuse to speak to him for 4 days...I don't understand it, but apparently racism and gender discrimination is alive and well and people tolerate it so well that we televise some "revered" course.. okay, I digress on my own little pet peeve, but the fact is that discrimination is allowed in private clubs.. the issue seems to be here the acceptance of the money for usage and their very poor, poor, poor handling of the situation... and the realization to so many people that discrimination of any kind exists. Its all so sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiloh Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I don't know if I can take this story at face value. Misunderstanding or poorly worded communication and then overreaction seems more likely. Philadelphia is a very AA friendly city. Less than half the population is white. The mayors have been black for a long time now. Congressional representation, City Council, loads of AA people in positions of authority and respect in the city. I lived in the city for several years and often had AA and non-AA people comment on my complexion and racial identity and I never got angry about that. If it truly did happen then lesson learned, I hope. But what if the truth is slightly different will that be a big national story, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Red herring. We are talking about a specific instance where racial prejudice may have motivated a club to kick out a day camp out of a pool. A day camp that they previously accepted money from, knowing the numbers etc. but possibly not the skin color of the campers. And I never said anything about anyone's character or ridiculed anyone, nor did I see anyone else do so on this thread. as Dot noted, i used her exact phrase. I wasn't being coy --i was being pretty darn blatantly clear. That would be me talking about the pool president's character; Peek was being coy or something and forgot to give me credit. I said that I thought they were scum and deserved all the ridicule they deserved. That's still my opinion. The pool was "private with open membership" they took the money, there were complaints about the "complexion". Sounds like a duck to me. And yes, her example was a red herring. a red herring is something that distracts attention from the real issue. Is the real issue not racial discrimination??:confused: or are y'all mostly just upset that kids were disappointed? dirtroad summed up the issues w/ this story very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 The issues would then be: 1)Though many of these organizations did expressly exclude blacks, are they now open to all, and if so, do you need an alternative organization for blacks any longer? (Like you no longer need the Negro Leagues of baseball) There is actually much debate about this in the AA community. Some feel they aren't needed, but many feel they shouldn't be "tossed out". 2)This, to me, does not apply to organizations that just don't have many black people who are interested or who "made the cut". That's different from express exclusion. I do realize that exclusions can be done underhandedly, but sometimes that's just not the case. Both of those points make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 We belong to a neighborhood swim club that has people from our neighborhood. Most are some type of European background but we also have Asians from several different ethnicities, and some children who are probably mixed race. My kids swim and dive against others who are off all races too. We attend a church which is multi-racial (which is rarer than many think). But as a person with European background, I was personally discriminated against openly at least twice in my life and probably more than that not quite as openly. In the first case, I was on a Metro bus as a teenager and the bus driver decided that me trying to get off the bus was unimportant. He ignored my bell, he ignored my plea. I was the only light colored person on the bus and thankfully an elderly black lady took pity on me and called the bus driver on it and insisted that he stop the bus for me. The second time was when I was in college and I asked a postal worker picking up mail from a mnailbox if he could take my letter too. He blew up at me and called me a honky and much worse things. Now I was very polite and he had no call to do this to me. So when I sometimes hear radicals proclaim that whites can['t experience racism, I think how wrong they are. It is an evil thing and I abhore it regardless of who you are discriminating against. I wouldn't have liked 60 day care kids come to my pool but it wouldn't have anything to do with color. We don't have parking for a bus and it would make it very hard for me to get to my house. But then my pool wouldn't advertise for that either. It all reminds me of when I was a little kid and there were white schools and black schools and white parks and black parks. For the poster in Alabama, I have found that there is much more overt racism in some of the areas that never had segregation than in areas that did. I think that those of us from areas that were segregated are usually much more sensitive to the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 We belong to a neighborhood swim club that has people from our neighborhood. Most are some type of European background but we also have Asians from several different ethnicities, and some children who are probably mixed race. My kids swim and dive against others who are off all races too. We attend a church which is multi-racial (which is rarer than many think). But as a person with European background, I was personally discriminated against openly at least twice in my life and probably more than that not quite as openly. In the first case, I was on a Metro bus as a teenager and the bus driver decided that me trying to get off the bus was unimportant. He ignored my bell, he ignored my plea. I was the only light colored person on the bus and thankfully an elderly black lady took pity on me and called the bus driver on it and insisted that he stop the bus for me. The second time was when I was in college and I asked a postal worker picking up mail from a mnailbox if he could take my letter too. He blew up at me and called me a honky and much worse things. Now I was very polite and he had no call to do this to me. So when I sometimes hear radicals proclaim that whites can['t experience racism, I think how wrong they are. It is an evil thing and I abhore it regardless of who you are discriminating against. I wouldn't have liked 60 day care kids come to my pool but it wouldn't have anything to do with color. We don't have parking for a bus and it would make it very hard for me to get to my house. But then my pool wouldn't advertise for that either. It all reminds me of when I was a little kid and there were white schools and black schools and white parks and black parks. For the poster in Alabama, I have found that there is much more overt racism in some of the areas that never had segregation than in areas that did. I think that those of us from areas that were segregated are usually much more sensitive to the issue. Which reminds me of this unhappy story... http://www.ohio.com/news/50172282.html It's about a white family attacked by black teenagers. I don't know what it more disturbing: the randomness of the attack, the racism, the mob violence, or that (other than the victim) nobody is calling it a hate crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in FL Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 My first reaction (I haven't read the article.) is that if this private club has any form of government oversight--is it a 501©(3), for example--then it is subject to antidiscriminatory laws. By denying access, private club or not, because of race, it risks losing its tax-favored status. Am I right? My father belongs to several "private clubs". And no, the government can not do anything about who they let in the door. His clubs all discriminate to a certain extent, some more than others. At one of them the wives are only invited very rarely, another the wives are allowed in every Friday night. That is what the word private means- private. I am fine with private clubs. Melissa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardening momma Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I know I would rethink my membership if 60 extra kids showed up at once and planned to do so regularly. Without knowing what the club is like/has been like in past years, it's hard to judge, but if this is the first time they've had a day camp join then that could be a shock to the families that have joined, regardless of color. There would have been a sign with the maximum # of occupants allowed in the pool. If you were a member there, you shouldn't be surprised (to the extent of cancelling your membership) if they fill the pool to capacity, even if you hadn't witnessed it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Just when you think we've made some progress in this nation. What a sad and depressing reminder that the work is not yet done. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardening momma Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) I'll add to the "filling to capacity" comment I made...my parents became members of a campground a couple of years ago. Since they joined, the campground really worked hard on selling memberships, and they are now filled to capacity, to the point that they won't let us get as many sites as they said we could in the beginning (my parents got a family membership so each of us dc can get sites too, but members come first before extra sites can be given out). Just because the campground wasn't full before doesn't mean that now everyone should complain and make the campground recind memberships that they've sold since then. Edited July 9, 2009 by gardening momma grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret in GA Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I think it's really *not OK* to discriminate on the basis of color whether your club is private or not. The country club in our town was white only until just a few years ago. I think they found it increasingly difficult trying to decide who, exactly the white people were. I mean, are hispanics white? Are Indians white? What about 1/4 AA? Is that white enough? What if your mother is Jewish? Are you still white then? A little idiotic in 2009. Oh yeah, and it's racist. Margaret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 What if your mother is Jewish? Are you still white then? A little idiotic in 2009. Oh yeah, and it's racist. Margaret Since when does religion ("What if your mother is Jewish?") have anything to do with the color of your skin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I think she was getting at the idea that European Jews were/are not considered "white" by some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeacherZee Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I don't know if I can take this story at face value. Misunderstanding or poorly worded communication and then overreaction seems more likely. Philadelphia is a very AA friendly city. Less than half the population is white. The mayors have been black for a long time now. Congressional representation, City Council, loads of AA people in positions of authority and respect in the city. I lived in the city for several years and often had AA and non-AA people comment on my complexion and racial identity and I never got angry about that. If it truly did happen then lesson learned, I hope. But what if the truth is slightly different will that be a big national story, too? Really minor point here (and I have quoted you because you talk about Philadelphia not to pick on you), but the club isn't actually in Philadelphia. It is in Huntingdon Valley which is in Montgomery county just outside Philadelphia. Montgomery county would definitely qualify as White :001_smile: From Wikipedia The racial makeup of the county was 86.46% White, 7.46% Black or African American, 0.11% Native American, 4.02% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 0.75% from other races, and 1.16% from two or more races. 2.04% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race. 17.5% were of German, 16.7% Irish, 14.3% Italian, 6.5% English and 5.0% Polish ancestry according to Census 2000. 90.5% spoke English, 2.0% Spanish, 1.1% Korean and 1.0% Italian as their first language. I used to live in Montgomery county and I personally think that this whole story is disgusting, but then again I don't like places that discriminate based on race/gender/religion etc so I guess I am biased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret in GA Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Since when does religion ("What if your mother is Jewish?") have anything to do with the color of your skin? It is common for racist organizations to refer to Jews as a racial category, rather than a religious one. Just to clarify, the club I'm speaking of did not allow Jewish members until the same time as it allowed AA and other people of color. It was not at all rare until fairly recently for golf clubs to exclude both AAs and Jews. I got this from the Institute for Jewish Policy Research's website: "Prejudice in the wider golfing community and its concomitant practice of exclusion were at the root of Whitefield Golf Club's formation. Golfing clubs were not alone in excluding or deterring Jews from joining. Both before and after the Second World War, the same pattern has applied in many middle-class recreational and sporting clubs.14 And so-called working-class sports were not exempt either." Margaret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber in SJ Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Anyone else slog through all 8 pages of this topic, follow the link about the campers finding another place to swim, then crack up upon seeing that the next news item was headlined; "Feds Investigate Death in Hot Chocolate Tank." Or was it just me? Amber in SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 are you talking about the 29 year old man who died when he fell into the vat of molten chocolate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I think she was getting at the idea that European Jews were/are not considered "white" by some people. Really? I'm shocked to discover some people don't think of me as "white". What color am I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleWMN Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 We belong to a neighborhood swim club that has people from our neighborhood. Most are some type of European background but we also have Asians from several different ethnicities, and some children who are probably mixed race. My kids swim and dive against others who are off all races too. We attend a church which is multi-racial (which is rarer than many think). But as a person with European background, I was personally discriminated against openly at least twice in my life and probably more than that not quite as openly. In the first case, I was on a Metro bus as a teenager and the bus driver decided that me trying to get off the bus was unimportant. He ignored my bell, he ignored my plea. I was the only light colored person on the bus and thankfully an elderly black lady took pity on me and called the bus driver on it and insisted that he stop the bus for me. The second time was when I was in college and I asked a postal worker picking up mail from a mnailbox if he could take my letter too. He blew up at me and called me a honky and much worse things. Now I was very polite and he had no call to do this to me. So when I sometimes hear radicals proclaim that whites can['t experience racism, I think how wrong they are. It is an evil thing and I abhore it regardless of who you are discriminating against. I wouldn't have liked 60 day care kids come to my pool but it wouldn't have anything to do with color. We don't have parking for a bus and it would make it very hard for me to get to my house. But then my pool wouldn't advertise for that either. It all reminds me of when I was a little kid and there were white schools and black schools and white parks and black parks. For the poster in Alabama, I have found that there is much more overt racism in some of the areas that never had segregation than in areas that did. I think that those of us from areas that were segregated are usually much more sensitive to the issue. I'm white and also have been discriminated against based on color several times in my lifetime. BUT I now have an AA daughter and it's a whole new ballgame. There is just no comparison. We are not allowed in certain family member's homes anymore. We've had comments - some innocent but still racist - that you just wouldn't believe. I am CERTAIN that if I were AA my life experience would be totally different and I'd not be able to count on one hand or two the racism I'd experienced. It certainly isn't right either way, but I don't believe you can know what an AA person experiences unless you are AA. eta: this story makes me sick. Two of my daughters would be allowed in that pool, one would not. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMamaBird Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Really? I'm shocked to discover some people don't think of me as "white". What color am I? I'd guess Ivory with touches of Beige and Pink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 When we moved in Birmingham, AL in 1985, we swiftly and warmly were welcomed by numerous long-time friends of our Greek family and relatives. I remember hearing stories from some of the older people who sometimes would reminiscence about "the early days in Birmingham", when they [Greeks] were barred from joining social clubs, or from buying homes in "certain" areas of Birmingham -- because they were Greek. Racism is colour-blind -- it assaults everybody ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber in SJ Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 OK, now I feel like I should explain what I thought was funny. I didn't read the news story, only the headline and of course I don't think someone's tragic death is funny, but after reading all the comments and hearing people referred to as "vanilla" and "chocolate" (which was new for me) reading the headline gave me a mental picture of all of those children who were ejected jumping into a hot tub at a country club onto rude, racist people. And that is why the emotionally immature (like myself) should think before posting. I didn't mean to offend, Amber in SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Really? I'm shocked to discover some people don't think of me as "white". What color am I? I think what they are trying to get at is that "private" clubs have often discriminated against Jews in the same fashion they have excluded African Americans. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamato4girls Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I'm sorry... was this a tweet from 1950? :001_huh::glare: Seriously, I often wonder how great the human capacity for justification is. Things like this reach new depths. :iagree: What in the H**# is wrong with people, that is terrible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 As a lawyer I do certainly understand the legal difference between a private club and a public club discriminating. This article about a community 10 minutes away from my home might help illustrate the problem. It remains a hideous problem it is just not overt any longer. http://www.thereader.com/cover.php?subaction=showfull&id=1233874358&archive=&start_from=&ucat=5& BTW the sole reason there are a plethora of Jewish country clubs is discrimination. Now many are in financial trouble as they are not a necessity any longer generally. An article in Golf Week is a wonderful read for those interested in the subject http://www.golfweek.com/business/coursemanagement/story/jewish-clubs-feature-062209 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (I'm a lawyer too, by the way, just not a very experienced one!) I'm thinking that this club entered into a contract - that agreed to have a certain number of kids swim at their club every Monday until August 10th (If I remember correctly). So maybe they forgot to mention that they have a "whites only" policy, or maybe they actually don't have a formal policy (which is what I suspect) but people complained when 60 kids descended on their club for the day, and their race intensified the complaints of some people. So management decided that the deal wasn't really be best idea. But in my mind, the club is bound by the contract. No? It seems to me that the camp could say, "Look, we had a deal, we lost a day of swimming, the kids' experience was spoiled, and we are suing for damages." I don't care what their policy is. They had a deal, they took the money, and returning it doesn't really remedy the pain these children are suffering knowing that their skin color was so offensive that they were asked to leave. I know that some kids look forward ALL SUMMER to their one week of summer camp, and what a nice start for these poor kids! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Well, you can go on and on for pages about this, and knowing this board I'm sure that's what will happen. I think the bottom line is that it's too bad it happened but they have a right to keep their private pool private. I grew up in a private country club atmosphere/mindset/neighborhood. No one joined that wasn't approved. Yep, go ahead and holler about the kids' rights. Yeah, they have rights. Joining any club they want isn't one of them. If people want to be bigoted you aren't going to stop them by taking away their rights, you're just going to make them madder and more bitter and convince them they are right. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 1. Any contract would be between the daycare and the club, not between the parents and the club, so neither the parents nor the kids have a right to sue under contract. 2. If the daycare had a contract with the club, they could sue for the daycare's losses which, if the club refunded the money and the daycare found another pool, are likely to be minimal or nonexistent. I find it disturbing that I already see headlines that the parents are considering legal action. There is not, nor should there be, a legal answer to every ill that may befall you or your child. Terri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 By MYCrazyHouse I'm sorry... was this a tweet from 1950? :001_huh::glare: Seriously, I often wonder how great the human capacity for justification is. Things like this reach new depths. __________________ :iagree::iagree: I abhor discrimination against race,religion (except for the like of satanism :)), gender, the elderly, disabled, and homosexuality. (Hopefully I did not forget any particular group:001_smile:) I know that there have been many instances of bigotry that I have witnessed or been told about throughout my life. I have heard otherwise intelligent people make racist remarks and the like with dismay.:confused: I know that sometimes people form these ideas based on the behavior of a few bad apples in a group so to speak, but I know in my heart that just as many bad apples can be found in all groups. So I pray that all Americans will see the dignity in all of us. One poster brought up African American groups such as journalists and implied that these groups were racist. I disagree since these groups were born out of the discrimination that they faced in the past and at times in the present. I hope that there will come the day when they will not see the need, but right now I respect that need. Obviously, as humans we do make judgements at times. For example, if someone appears or behaves threatening (no matter what race) when I am out in public, I take precautions. However, I also intellectually know that there have been many serial killers who would not raise alarms bells in most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezrabean2005 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 My children are mine by adoption and also black. I can tell you of multiple occassions they were not allowed to participate in something due to their skin color. More than once it was assummed they "wandered in from the neighborhood" and didn't have appropriate chaperone even though I was standing right there. Suddenly when I point out in some manner that they are my kids, they are suddenly accepted although no apology is usually given. We have had people working in restaurants like McDonalds refuse to take orders (even though they are standing there in line with money in hand), we have had families tell us that their children can't play with them, church members suggest we send them to a different church "so everyone may be more comfortable", and so on. The point about this article is that they were sent away because of their color. Every quote made by those involved at the club infers that the reason they sent the children away is because of their color first, then because of the large number of them. I'm so sorry that this happened to you and your children. That's terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtroad Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 1. Any contract would be between the daycare and the club, not between the parents and the club, so neither the parents nor the kids have a right to sue under contract. 2. If the daycare had a contract with the club, they could sue for the daycare's losses which, if the club refunded the money and the daycare found another pool, are likely to be minimal or nonexistent. I find it disturbing that I already see headlines that the parents are considering legal action. There is not, nor should there be, a legal answer to every ill that may befall you or your child. Terri We assume the club didn't have Whites Only or didn't communicate any policies... but what about the CAMP not giving all the details.... like 60 kids coming at one time! The media guides us to only assume one side of an arguement. There is always more to the story... and the more racial and nasty they can get it whipped up... the more people tune back in for more. Jesse Jackson might even show up. I don't care what color you are... we are out of there with that big of a group showed up. I just wonder did the daycare/camp reveal ALL they had going on to the group. You usually don't bring 60 kids to a pool or event without a special time or special arrangements ... for the safety of the children in your care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) Really? I'm shocked to discover some people don't think of me as "white". What color am I? I am not a proponent of racial purity and I don't believe terms like "white" have any real meaning, so I am not really the one to suggest a real answer to this, but perhaps you will find these discussions relevant: http://tonykaron.com/2005/12/05/are-jews-white/ http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/white01.htm http://www.presentensemagazine.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40 http://www.forward.com/articles/10985/ http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/06/jews-are-white.html http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/6932/jews-are-white/ http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/07/11/on-being-jewish-and-white/ (None of these are nazi type or otherwise hateful sites, several are Jewish publications.) Edited July 9, 2009 by stripe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I just wonder did the daycare/camp reveal ALL they had going on to the group. You usually don't bring 60 kids to a pool or event without a special time or special arrangements ... for the safety of the children in your care. But they did make special arrangements. They paid for the group to use the pool one day a week for a certain number of weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtroad Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 But they did make special arrangements. They paid for the group to use the pool one day a week for a certain number of weeks. I knew they made a deal to use the pool, but my question was regarding the number of children coming. There is a huge difference between 10-20 kids and 60 :eek:. It is possible that it was miscommunications on one or both sides.. that got blown out of proportion... then racial element enters in and the fire is kindled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I knew they made a deal to use the pool, but my question was regarding the number of children coming. There is a huge difference between 10-20 kids and 60 :eek:. It is possible that it was miscommunications on one or both sides.. that got blown out of proportion... then racial element enters in and the fire is kindled. 10-20 kids would be a very small camp around here, but maybe things are done differently in PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I find it odd that the group claims "The pool attendants came and told the black children that they did not allow minorities in the club and needed the children to leave immediately," and then in the same interview we read "Campers remain unsure why they're no longer welcome." :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in FL Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I don't care what color you are... we are out of there with that big of a group showed up. I just wonder did the daycare/camp reveal ALL they had going on to the group. You usually don't bring 60 kids to a pool or event without a special time or special arrangements ... for the safety of the children in your care. I totally agree. Here is an updated article about this: http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/070709_Swim_Club_Accused_Of_Discrimination This was not the only daycare they had agreed to let come. They rescinded all the daycares from coming. This pool costs people $395 to join as a family. You can bet that if we had joined this pool and 60 kids had shown up to use it while we were there (and I don't care what race they are) I would have thrown a fit! Two life guards on duty for 60 kids plus the members there? Lawsuit waiting to happen in my mind. I would have packed up and asked for my $395 back especially knowing that there were more groups coming from other camps during the week (if you only joined for swimming that would be almost $400 for barely 2 1/2 months of use). After doing my own research on this, I don't think this was a race issue. I think the members were ticked off that the quiet family pool they thought they were paying for was going to be overrun all summer with daycare kids. I think the director responded to the memberships outrage about all those extra kids. I used to work in daycare, for school age kids the ratio on field trips was 20 kids to 1 adult, no way would my kids stay at the pool. Melissa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamato4girls Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 In that case, I would be ticked too. That large of a party needs to reserve the pool, if possible, for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (I'm a lawyer too, by the way, just not a very experienced one!) I'm thinking that this club entered into a contract - that agreed to have a certain number of kids swim at their club every Monday until August 10th (If I remember correctly). So maybe they forgot to mention that they have a "whites only" policy, or maybe they actually don't have a formal policy (which is what I suspect) but people complained when 60 kids descended on their club for the day, and their race intensified the complaints of some people. So management decided that the deal wasn't really be best idea. But in my mind, the club is bound by the contract. No? It seems to me that the camp could say, "Look, we had a deal, we lost a day of swimming, the kids' experience was spoiled, and we are suing for damages." I don't care what their policy is. They had a deal, they took the money, and returning it doesn't really remedy the pain these children are suffering knowing that their skin color was so offensive that they were asked to leave. I know that some kids look forward ALL SUMMER to their one week of summer camp, and what a nice start for these poor kids! Absolutely it is a contract issue . You are correct. Of course there rarely is a formal policy...that way they cannot be called what they clearly are-racists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I agree that I would not be happy if our pool opened up to large outside groups like daycares or camps. It's not the number of kids as there are easily that many kids in the pool on any given day but it's the number of unsupervised kids. Even with whatever counselors they had with them and with lifeguards, it's not the same as that same number of kids with a much larger number of parents/adults watching them and being responsbile for behaviour. I wouldn't have a problem with kids from a daycare/camp/etc coming in smaller groups. I do feel bad for the kids who don't have the opportunity to enjoy the pool. It's hard to tell from the news stories who said what and what the real reasons were for not having these kids swim. If it was racial, it's inexcusable and horrible. Also, if this had been my pool I might have complained to the management about the large number of kids but I would have been just as bothered by them kicking the kids out in the middle of swimming. Sounds like the pool management made a mistake in allowing it...but it's not the kids fault and at the very least this was handled poorly. At the worst it's an incredibly ugly situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillieBoy Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I have been a victim of discrimination as well as a recipient of verbal and physical battery stemming from racial prejudices. These instances have been amongst the most humiliating and degrading experiences of my life. Though truly impossible to put someone else’s shoes on, and I in no way try to equate the following scenario to a hate crime, I wonder if some would swallow just a bit more bile if they could equate this situation on a more personal level. Say a private museum was displaying a very rare and exciting exhibit and they announced they were having a special day for school kids. You call a head of time and say you represent a group of students, you pay by credit card and are given tickets. You and your homeschool group get all organized, print out your study guides, pack your lunches and head out for a full, fun- filled, field day only to be turned down because by their definition homeschool kids do not qualify as students. You didn’t think to mention homeschool when you called because students are students to you. How irate would you be? How wrong would they be? Would we on this board finally unite, stomp our feet, and say “Not cool!� Just wondering. The sadness is that the children know there is a controversy surrounding them and, yes, more than likely they will think it’s because of the color of their skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Noazart, Well phrased. I absolutely love the analogy and recall not one but several times where a thread went wild due to "discrimination" against home educated children. It all depends on whose ox is getting gored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 inviting day care and camp kids and realized it after the sixty kids showed up. Perhaps they didn't have enough lifeguards or the club members complained about too many kids in the pool without their parents there to watch them. I took my son swimming yesterday at a lake and was alarmed to see a large group of elementary kids swimming with only one man to watch them with no lifeguards around. There were about half a dozen kids that looked like they were only six years and the other half dozen were obviously still in third or fourth grade. It made me quite nervous and I can imagine how the members might have felt with so many new kids in the pool with less supervision than normal. The club did disinvite the other groups also, not just this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 http://library.findlaw.com/2000/Oct/1/130527.html This summary is helpful in terms of circumstances where a court will intervene in a "private" club that is said to have discriminated against a protected group. The law is evolving in this area and I thought it germane to the discussion as several posts have erroneously stated that because a club is private they are protected against a charge of discrimination. Not so . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 inviting day care and camp kids and realized it after the sixty kids showed up. Perhaps they didn't have enough lifeguards or the club members complained about too many kids in the pool without their parents there to watch them. I took my son swimming yesterday at a lake and was alarmed to see a large group of elementary kids swimming with only one man to watch them with no lifeguards around. There were about half a dozen kids that looked like they were only six years and the other half dozen were obviously still in third or fourth grade. It made me quite nervous and I can imagine how the members might have felt with so many new kids in the pool with less supervision than normal. The club did disinvite the other groups also, not just this one. If it was a safety issue, they could have just said so. I don't think anyone would have had an issue with that. But instead they said this: "There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion … and the atmosphere of the club," John Duesler, President of The Valley Swim Club said in a statement. :confused: (According to this thread, anyway. I haven't read any of the articles and don't plan to.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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