Is this an indication of H.S graduate grammar knowledge these days?

[Nestof3]

I think poor grammar can be found across the board. I too have seen many homeschoolers, though, who write like that. We know homeschooled children who are ten years old and cannot read (because of lack of time, not a learning disability). We know many homeschooled children who start a sentence with, "me and her . . ."

 

I have found many moms who honestly do not have the time to educate their children -- at least not in academics.

 

I would guess, though, that there are many public schooled students who do likewise.

 

 

 

My niece just graduated from high school last month. I wanted to share with you the thank you card we received from her. This is not to bash her or put her in a bad light, but rather to show you the knowledge base for graduating - at least where grammar is concerned. But then again, perhaps this is how she expresses herself which has nothing to do with what she was taught, but what she chooses to apply. I don't know...what are your thoughts on this?

 

For the envelope addressed to us, in the upper left hand corner she has:

 

mrs (first name and last name)

999 Blah Blah dR.

city, state, zip

 

Now, she is not married, so obviously it should not say "Mrs." But it also was not capitalized nor was there a period. For her address, she did not capitalize the "D" in Dr. but capitalized the "r" (?).

 

OK, for the address to us, she has:

 

MR (husband's name)

999 S H___ F___ dRive

City, in zip

 

There is no period after the S in south, and again, what's up with the lower case d and capitol r in drive? And...the abbreviation for our state (IN) was in lower case letters.

 

Moving on, here is the card:

 

(husband, me (spelled Jenna), daughter (with a lower case I), son (with a lower case I), son spelled Attieus (I assume she wanted this to be a fancy "c", but it's clearly an "e"),

 

Thank you so much for the money & the card. i hope you all are doing well. i wish you could of Been there i miss you all very much. Thank you again

 

Love Always

(name)

 

What's with the lower case I's, the lack of punctuation, saying "of" instead of "have" and the capitol "b" in been?

 

I don't mean to nit-pick, but honestly, it does make me question how she graduated. My 11yo knows better than to do this. Please tell me this is how she expresses herself (poorly) and not a product of her lack of education. Any thoughts?

[Perry]

Sorry, but having poor grammar and being dyslexic are two completely different things.

 

Not necessarily. My dyslexic dd is a good reader (after major initial struggles) but has terrible difficulties with all kinds of written expression. It's more accurate to say she has an language based learning disability manifested as a disorder of written expression, but it's much easier, and basically correct, to say she's dyslexic.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Perry

[VanessaS]

A rant:

 

Please read the section below again. Remember, this is a thank you card, not an email. It is from a HS graduate who normally must be proficient in English in order to graduate.

Thank you so much for the money & the card. i hope you all are doing well. i wish you could of Been there i miss you all very much. Thank you again

She should know, at the least, that the letter at the beginning of a sentence should be capitalized and that there is a period at the end of it. Otherwise, how did she graduate?

 

My sister worked her rear off to teach herself such things (grammar, math, reading comprehension) that comes so easily to others and is rightly very proud of her accomplishment. She earned it through hard work and hours of studying/practicing every night and all weekend.

 

It makes me angry to see others receiving diplomas that are, IMO, undeserved. It cheapens her effort if they now give it to everybody who manages to stay in school for 12 years. I do not believe in social promotion. My own diploma is also devalued by this. Which is important as I do not have a college education.

 

I'm not merely nitpicking on the OP's niece. I see this everywhere. IMO, it's the schools' fault. They promote these children because otherwise it would become glaringly obvious that the schools are failing. Read this and feel your toes curl and your hair stand on end. It's true.

 

My mother (for whom English is a second language) works in an office where she is the only one without a college degree and the only one who is not an English native-speaker. She's also in charge of proof-reading all outgoing documents. The quality of their English and math skills is abysmal. I've seen examples and I was plainly shocked. And she works in a budget office and there are people there with Master's of Business Admin who cannot read a bar chart. I kid you not.

 

End rant.

 

There is a reason why we're homeschooling, after all. The thing that I find surprising is that America continues to run at all.

[KidsHappen]

I don't think it's slang -- I think most people don't understand that it's a contraction for "could have". When it's said aloud, it does sound a lot like "could of".

 

I concur. Yes, they are saying could've. Unfortunately, there is something lost in the translation as it makes its way to paper. This is one of those cases of the evolution of language due to laziness and my guess is that in another generation or so, it will become standard.

[VanessaS]

This is one of those cases of the evolution of language due to laziness and my guess is that in another generation or so, it will become standard.

 

But then it would become yet another irregularity in the English language. :glare:

Edited June 18, 2009 by VanessaS

[msjones]

A rant:

 

Please read the section below again. Remember, this is a thank you card, not an email. It is from a HS graduate who normally must be proficient in English in order to graduate.

 

She should know, at the least, that the letter at the beginning of a sentence should be capitalized and that there is a period at the end of it. Otherwise, how did she graduate?

 

My sister worked her rear off to teach herself such things (grammar, math, reading comprehension) that comes so easily to others and is rightly very proud of her accomplishment. She earned it through hard work and hours of studying/practicing every night and all weekend.

 

It makes me angry to see others receiving diplomas that are, IMO, undeserved. It cheapens her effort if they now give it to everybody who manages to stay in school for 12 years. I do not believe in social promotion. My own diploma is also devalued by this. Which is important as I do not have a college education.

 

I'm not merely nitpicking on the OP's niece. I see this everywhere. IMO, it's the schools' fault. They promote these children because otherwise it would become glaringly obvious that the schools are failing. Read this and feel your toes curl and your hair stand on end. It's true.

 

My mother (for whom English is a second language) works in an office where she is the only one without a college degree and the only one who is not an English native-speaker. She's also in charge of proof-reading all outgoing documents. The quality of their English and math skills is abysmal. I've seen examples and I was plainly shocked. And she works in a budget office and there are people there with Master's of Business Admin who cannot read a bar chart. I kid you not.

 

End rant.

 

There is a reason why we're homeschooling, after all. The thing that I find surprising is that America continues to run at all.

 

Haven't read all the replies, but wanted to pipe in here...

 

It is certainly possible that this graduate was quite capable of turning in good work to her teachers and still do a lazy, sloppy job addressing an envelope in the privacy of her own home. After all, the was a note written on her own time -- not an assignment that earned an 'A.'

 

It seems to be a big leap to blame a teacher and "social promotion" for her poorly addressed note.

 

I can say with certainty that no high school teacher I know would have rewarded that note with a good grade.

[EKS]

At least she wrote you a thank you note.

 

As for the unique capitalization, I'd give some leeway and say maybe she was being creative. Leaving periods off of abbreviations doesn't bother me either. But I agree that the other punctuation problems and grammatical mistakes are disturbing.

[VanessaS]

I can say with certainty that no high school teacher I know would have rewarded that note with a good grade.

 

Neither would one of mine, which is why my sister struggled so hard.

 

However, no two public school systems are alike. My cousin came to live with is (from SC to TX) and was way behind academically. He was literally years behind. He was literally illiterate.

[Staci in MO]

First of all, I have no idea whether or not the young woman who wrote the note is dyslexic. I'm certainly not an expert. Most of those errors do look like those of someone who was either very careless or very ignorant. The "could of" in the place of "could have", though, is something that I could see my dh (or dyslexic ds) doing.

 

And, I do realize that often written communication is the only thing we have to judge someone by. So is my husband. That's why he might agonize over making an error that I would shrug off as minor. He has no concept over what are the types of mistakes that anyone could make, and which are the types of things that everyone should know.

 

I realize that my initial reaction was overly sensitive. It just hit a nerve. Nobody knew my dh was dyslexic until an in-class essay he wrote in college tipped off his professor. And I realize this girl is never going to know how her note has been critiqued. But the idea that someone could take a note that he has written, show it to others, and pick apart all the mistakes is a very real worry of my dh's.

[bella_gitana]

1) Because she signed her name to it. As such, she should take personal responsibility for the content of it.

2) Because this was a "Thank You" note for a gift bestowed for graduation from HIGH SCHOOL. If I were OP, I might be wondering at this point if congratulations were really appropriate. Maybe offering condolences makes more sense? :confused:

3) Because misspelling of a relative's name that was almost certainly spelled correctly in the gift card should not happen. Clearly NO care was taken to get this spelling correct. This was not grammar error.

4) Because the lack of care shown in the writing of this "Thank You" note largely nullifies the function of the note. "If a job is worth doing, it is worth doing well."

Why? Did she ask for assistance? I seriously doubt it. She apparently does not care how OP might receive this message, which, to me, is the sad part of the entire situation.

 

:iagree:

"If a job is worth doing, it is worth doing well." Exactly!

It seems like she was *told* to write thank you notes. In other words, it was a chore for her, so why put a good effort into it.

[FlockOfSillies]

Ayup.

[FlockOfSillies]

Something tells me this girl has no idea how they do things in Britain. She might not even be able to find it on a map.

[VanessaS]

Actually, a lot of Americans can't find Britain on a map. Or Germany, despite fighting two wars against them.

 

Hee, hee. I actually found it really humourus when I lived in Germany and came home to the States for visits. When I'd tell people where I lived, some would nod and others would say (I kid you not!), "Germany? Isn't that where Hitler's from? Somewhere in Europe, right?"

Edited June 18, 2009 by VanessaS

[ChristineMM]

Sound to me like she is using text message type wording and capitalization, not using standard English and certainly not proper format for addressing a letter using USPS's requested format. Scary!

[Janna]

Thank you to all who have responded. I just want to let everyone who became offended or "ill" by reading this thread that that was not at all my intention. As I stated in my original post, this was not to slam my niece at any level, nor was it to embarrass her. I feel comfortable with posting what I did.

 

I also want to clarify that my niece is not dyslexic.

 

I posted this for two reasons. First, I think it's an obvious and sad blunder to write "mrs" when she is not married. That is something that is learned in elementary school. I still am really surprised that she wrote that. I mean, bless her heart, I'm sure she was trying to be formal, but the fact that she didn't know to say Miss or even Ms. is disturbing to me.

 

The 2nd thing is that it is offensive to me to not spell our names properly. To have mine be an obvious misprint and my other 2 children not have their names capitalized is offensive to me (I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt that the "e" in Atticus was supposed to be a fancy "c"). We are family. There is no reason why she should not know how to spell my name. It would be different if she spelled it with one "n" (Jana), because at least the sound of my name is the same and it's a common mistake. But to have it changed to "Jenna", competely changes my name, as if she doesn't know it. We're family. It's offensive.

 

Both of these points encompass the fact that this was a thank you card for her graduation. It's like her first effort using the written language as a graduate and it's...uncomfortable at best.

 

So I hold to my posting this because if this is not personal style (which I don't think it is, except *maybe* capitalizing the "r's"), then it's either sloppy or she was able to graduate with this kind of knowledge. Because this is a message board on education, I think it's appropriate to post.

 

Again, I'm sorry for inadvertantly offending anyone. I can assure you, too, that I don't scrutinize everything that comes across my eyes. When I receieved this note, not *once* did I think anything negative about my niece. I was disheartened that this is the level that is now ok to graduate with, and as I ponder my neice and who she is, I really believe that is the case in this situation.

[mazakaal]

I don't think she sent you a thank you note. It looks more like you received a thank you text message...on paper. It's quite sad that written communication is falling to this level.

 

:iagree:

 

I think text messaging is destroying the communication skills of the young.

 

Even my ds, who I was despairing of in another thread, could do better than that.

[chaik76]

The first statement is true, albeit very sad. The fact that our initial reaction is: "Wow! She sent a thank-you note!" shows how bad it has gotten.

 

 

Well...I don't send thank-you notes. I call, but I don't waste paper on thank you notes, mainly because I don't like to receive them (think it's a waste of paper). I do make sure that people know this though...that way if they think I'm terribly rude, they can choose not to give gifts to us.

 

ETA: I've always known people who have chosen not to capitalize or have capitalized random letters, so that doesn't bother me. Some people are just terrible at spelling, which may be why the names were misspelled.

 

FWIW, I was an English major and have a relatively good (though not perfect) grasp of language and grammar. This person's letter really doesn't bother me. Grammar and language is in flux right now. It happens every several hundred years. We are being influenced by the new methods of communication, and that is going to change how we speak and write. A hundred years from now I think our method of communication is going to be significantly different than it is right now.

 

To put all of this in context, take a look at letters that were written in the 1700s or early 1800s. Honestly, I wouldn't want to go back to writing that way.

Edited June 18, 2009 by chaik76

[Audrey]

 

That's a major reason why I'm homeschooling. I can hardly do worse... :tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

:lol: I am using that next time I get a question as to why we're homeschooling.

[LizzyBee]

In my opinion, it is very poor manners to misspell a person's name in any written communication.

 

I agree with you, but it's easier said than done for some people. Two of my kids are dyslexic. I kept trying to figure out why I would have 2 dyslexic kids and one of my sisters would have a dyslexic kid when no-one else in my family is dyslexic. Then I remembered that one of my sisters never spelled my kids names the same way twice even though they are common names. She also could never pronounce my brother's name and certain other words correctly. She got good grades in school, but worked very, very hard for them. Bingo, there's the genetic link! I know she tried to spell my kids' names correctly and I know she didn't misspell them from simple carelessness or failure to take the time to think about it. She died in 2005 and I wouldn't trade all those cards with misspelled names for anything.

 

ETA: I just finished reading the thread and wanted to clarify that I was not trying to imply that the OP's niece is dyslexic. I was only pointing out that I've known people (my sister, my dh's aunt) who honestly do/did try very hard and still misspell names.

Edited June 18, 2009 by LizzyBee

[CookieMonster]

Okay, how about this (and hopefully expressed without introducing my own grammar errors this time)? I would argue that manners are more lacking in our society than grammar skills. This girl showed good manners and should be commended for that.

 

As for the execution of the thank you note, I'm not surprised. A high school diploma means very little these days. Even a college degree is devalued by the sheer number of people obtaining them. This is why post-graduate work has become the new metric for measuring one's education. It won't be long until a doctorate is de rigueur.

 

:iagree:

 

I was in university - for an education degree that would allow me to teach others - with fellow students who didn't have even a rudimentary grasp of grammar, punctuation, or capitalization. They were nice girls. They had legitimately obtained their diplomas. They wanted to teach elementary school. And they didn't know a noun from a verb.

 

And they never had to learn grammar, punctuation, or capitalization in order to get their teaching degree.

[LizzyBee]

Sorry, but having poor grammar and being dyslexic are two completely different things.

 

They often go hand in hand. Dyslexia is a language processing disorder that often causes struggles with grammar, although not in every case.

[cathmom]

A rant:

 

Please read the section below again. Remember, this is a thank you card, not an email. It is from a HS graduate who normally must be proficient in English in order to graduate.

 

She should know, at the least, that the letter at the beginning of a sentence should be capitalized and that there is a period at the end of it. Otherwise, how did she graduate?

 

My sister worked her rear off to teach herself such things (grammar, math, reading comprehension) that comes so easily to others and is rightly very proud of her accomplishment. She earned it through hard work and hours of studying/practicing every night and all weekend.

 

It makes me angry to see others receiving diplomas that are, IMO, undeserved. It cheapens her effort if they now give it to everybody who manages to stay in school for 12 years. I do not believe in social promotion. My own diploma is also devalued by this. Which is important as I do not have a college education.

 

I'm not merely nitpicking on the OP's niece. I see this everywhere. IMO, it's the schools' fault. They promote these children because otherwise it would become glaringly obvious that the schools are failing. Read this and feel your toes curl and your hair stand on end. It's true.

 

My mother (for whom English is a second language) works in an office where she is the only one without a college degree and the only one who is not an English native-speaker. She's also in charge of proof-reading all outgoing documents. The quality of their English and math skills is abysmal. I've seen examples and I was plainly shocked. And she works in a budget office and there are people there with Master's of Business Admin who cannot read a bar chart. I kid you not.

 

End rant.

 

There is a reason why we're homeschooling, after all. The thing that I find surprising is that America continues to run at all.

 

I just wanted to point out that you have a sentence fragment (the bolded, underlined part) in your rant about proper English and grammar. :)

[ChemMommy]

It's text-message gibberish.

 

But, last summer, all of the faculty started receiving multiple grammatically-disastrous emails about class.

 

With my freshman classes, I have to explain to them that in emails to faculty and administrator, they need to write proper English and use good grammar.

 

At the end of their 3rd year in college, I have to write an evaluation of them as a person and as a student. Two of the categories are oral and written communication. I tell them, flat out, that continuing to receive text-message emails will guarantee a failing evaluation for any faculty member.

 

Most of the faculty just use the delete key and refuse to respond. Or, we reply that we can't understand the message because of the poor grammar/spelling/punctuation.

 

Trust me! After my "discussion" or after the comment on their email, the quality of the emails improve dramatically! They really CAN write better, but are too lazy to do it unless prodded.

 

So, when I get the emails this summer that begin, "Yo, Pam" instead of "Dear Professor M__", you know what I'll be doing with them! :lol: Cue "evil laugh" sound track!

[Happy]

It's text-message gibberish.

 

But, last summer, all of the faculty started receiving multiple grammatically-disastrous emails about class.

 

With my freshman classes, I have to explain to them that in emails to faculty and administrator, they need to write proper English and use good grammar.

 

At the end of their 3rd year in college, I have to write an evaluation of them as a person and as a student. Two of the categories are oral and written communication. I tell them, flat out, that continuing to receive text-message emails will guarantee a failing evaluation for any faculty member.

 

Most of the faculty just use the delete key and refuse to respond. Or, we reply that we can't understand the message because of the poor grammar/spelling/punctuation.

 

Trust me! After my "discussion" or after the comment on their email, the quality of the emails improve dramatically! They really CAN write better, but are too lazy to do it unless prodded.

 

So, when I get the emails this summer that begin, "Yo, Pam" instead of "Dear Professor M__", you know what I'll be doing with them! :lol: Cue "evil laugh" sound track!

 

One of the things we tried to teach our son was that different audiences require different presentations. To text a friend...speak and write in text language if you like. A letter to Grandmother...speak and write in coherent, friendly English. Applying for a job...please drag out all the formal language knowledge you own. ;)

 

This particular son just got through writing many, many thank you notes for his graduation gifts. We discussed that if people could take the time to write a check or shop for a gift (not even including wrapping or mailing said item) then he could spend several moments writing a clear, hand-written, and personalized thank you note.

 

As far as misspelling names...we just recieved a 'thank you' note from a local car dealership where we had our car serviced. I know the guy wanted to build up future business, but since he left three letters out of our last name, we worry about the attention to detail his shop has. :D

 

It only takes a few minutes to slow down and write a proper thank you note. Our society doesn't seem to appreciate slowing down in many ways.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We received an e-mail just tonight from another homeschooler. He is schooled using Abeka, which is a pretty traditional curricula, so I know that he knows proper grammar. But it really irks me that he doesn't capitalize his "I" and did the same thing about capitalizing letters at random! It seems to me that it would take extra time to do it wrong - it is so second nature to me to type things correctly.

[VanessaS]

Grammar and language is in flux right now. It happens every several hundred years. We are being influenced by the new methods of communication, and that is going to change how we speak and write. A hundred years from now I think our method of communication is going to be significantly different than it is right now.

 

To put all of this in context, take a look at letters that were written in the 1700s or early 1800s. Honestly, I wouldn't want to go back to writing that way.

 

It'll be like 1984. I can hardly wait. :glare: The truth is that grammar, spelling, and punctuation where standardized to make writing more effective. If everybody just writes however they want, it will complicate communication. I already read things where I ask myself, "What in the world are they saying?" What I see happening is that the population is splitting very dramatically into the educated and the uneducated. Perhaps this is one of the main reasons for the growing inequality?

[VanessaS]

I just wanted to point out that you have a sentence fragment (the bolded, underlined part) in your rant about proper English and grammar. :)

:001_huh: I know that you were just trying to be cute but I must admit that I found that comment a bit obtuse. That's like writing someone back to complain about a spelling error in an email. My point was that writing quality should fit the medium and that HS graduates should be capable of writing well when it is appropriate.

I'm currently typing with a toddler on my lap, BTW. Shall I now start grammar-checking my posts?

[cin]

:iagree:

 

As a mother of two dyslexic children, this thread is making me ill.

 

 

I understand your feelings, but knowing that your children have dyslexia, would you not work with them, proofread, and assist them in sending out their Thank Yous?

 

I don't know the family, but I have a feeling her mother would be mortified if she had seen these Thank Yous!

[cin]

We received an e-mail just tonight from another homeschooler. He is schooled using Abeka, which is a pretty traditional curricula, so I know that he knows proper grammar. But it really irks me that he doesn't capitalize his "I" and did the same thing about capitalizing letters at random! It seems to me that it would take extra time to do it wrong - it is so second nature to me to type things correctly.

 

I do random capitalization with my informal writing (notes, lists, journaling) but I do NOT do it when I am writing formally.

[LaxMom]

My eldest daughter graduated from public school, with "A" grades on papers rife with spelling and grammatical errors. She also seems to not understand what the wavy red line under certain words is designed to indicate when typing communications.

 

"Could of" is common, as are other phonetic interpretations. From my experience, the OP's niece probably does not understand the nuances of women's titles; all female teachers were referred to as "Miss X", regardless of known marital status, and despite what was clearly indicated by the name plate on their classroom doors and desks. I suspect she simply is unaware there is differentiation.

 

 

To me, this - as most other interpersonal things - falls into the category of basic ettiquette: one should always act with more concern for others' comfort than one's own, including taking the time to properly construct even a simple note (and have it proofread, if necessary), rather than subjecting the recipient to the pain of having to decipher one that is poorly constructed.

[Nestof3]

I understand your feelings, but knowing that your children have dyslexia, would you not work with them, proofread, and assist them in sending out their Thank Yous?

 

I don't know the family, but I have a feeling her mother would be mortified if she had seen these Thank Yous!

 

Hasn't it already been established that this girl is not dyslexic? Why are people still discussing dyslexia?

 

Adults without learning disabilities should be able to write a thank you note with capital letters and punctuation. It really is that simple.

 

There are many people homeschooling who are NOT teaching basic reading and writing skills. It seems people on this forum want to ignore that fact.

[LaxMom]

...

There are many people homeschooling who are NOT teaching basic reading and writing skills. It seems people on this forum want to ignore that fact.

I don't ignore that fact, but that I was battling against the implicit - and sometimes explicit - message from "official" (public school) teachers that grammar, spelling, etc. just doesn't matter is one of the primary reasons we chose to homeschool.

 

I think Cin was simply pointing out that, even with learning disabilities, one should make a concerted effort to make sure the communication is correct.

[Renee in NC]

Hasn't it already been established that this girl is not dyslexic? Why are people still discussing dyslexia?

 

Adults without learning disabilities should be able to write a thank you note with capital letters and punctuation. It really is that simple.

 

There are many people homeschooling who are NOT teaching basic reading and writing skills. It seems people on this forum want to ignore that fact.

 

Is the girl homeschooled?

 

ETA: I guess it doesn't matter either way. These threads always leave me feeling icky. Why is it necessary to put other people down all the time? It just makes me self-concious and even more nervous about meeting new homeschoolers when we move. Maybe we won't pass muster. Worse - maybe we won't pass muster and someone will go talk about all my faults on a homeschool message board.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Renee in FL

[Janna]

((Renee)),

 

I am sorry you are feeling like this thread is about the *person* and not the product. I am not sure how else to state that this was not about *my niece*, but about what she has and has not learned in school as a high school graduate.

 

I don't get the sense that my niece is being picked on per se, but that there is a realization that it doesn't take much to graduate these days, at least where grammar is concerned. Certainly it's pointed out that if she *did* know better, then laziness or lack of care is at play, which I think we could all be cautioned against without feeling like *we* are being picked on as a person, kwim? But somehow I get the feeling that a lot of this is the schooling. The texting aspect of this was interesting to me because I hadn't thought about that (not being a texter myself, or even a big cell phone user, though I am in love with the iphone, just not the price and therefore will never own one). The part about written communication evolving was also an interesting thought, so I've appreciated this thread.

 

I don't know what else to say about it. I've tried to reiterate that this isn't about my niece. I certainly hope that you are able to look past that so that you don't feel scrutinized everywhere you go. That would be a horrible feeling, and I'm sorry for contributing to it unknowingly.

 

((Renee))

[Melinda in VT]

I would be really curious to see what her homework was like. Did her high school graduate her for written work like this? Or is this a case of her writing to a different standard since no one is grading it?

 

I'm also a little surprised that addressing an envelope is considered a skill the school is responsible for teaching. To me, this a life-skill that parents teach, like doing the laundry or balancing a checkbook. (And my kids are in public school.)

[Renee in NC]

Janna - don't worry, once I quit reading these threads I feel normal again! I probably just shouldn't have read the thread at all.

 

ETA: I guess I know this isn't about the person, but the product, but I don't think it would be any consolation to her if she were to stumble across the thread and read the responses.

[Nestof3]

Janna - don't worry, once I quit reading these threads I feel normal again! I probably just shouldn't have read the thread at all.

 

ETA: I guess I know this isn't about the person, but the product, but I don't think it would be any consolation to her if she were to stumble across the thread and read the responses.

 

I think it's just that this is an education board, and most or all of the posters here are concerned about quality education. Sure, everyone has different opinions on what that means, but it's all worth discussing. There's a lot of gray area, but at some point, the gray turns black.

 

Consider the skill of reading (not for those with no learning disabilities but with no involvement/teaching from parent).

 

Most would say not reading by six years old is fine. Seven? Fine. Eight? less fine

 

The older the child gets, the less "fine" it typically becomes. It becomes more gray. 30 years old and not reading? very "not fine" (black).

 

I don't think this thread is about being perfect or about knowing everything. I think it is about the quality of education people receive and exhibit.

[elw_miller]

I don't ignore that fact, but that I was battling against the implicit - and sometimes explicit - message from "official" (public school) teachers that grammar, spelling, etc. just doesn't matter is one of the primary reasons we chose to homeschool.

 

I received a degree in Secondary English Education. I distinctly remember (and being horrified by) the proposition being put forth by some of my "education" professors that explicitly teaching grammar was unnecessary because the students would "pick it up" as they read books. Yeah, maybe they'll "pick it up" somewhat, but their ability to deftly use language and parse meaning is hampered without it. Even my Mechanical Engineering husband agrees. He was also never taught phonics and wishes he had been (I'm so glad I received an old fashioned education, at least in part).

 

Thankfully, I went on to teach in an excellent school district that taught grammar and spelling (etc.) despite the "prevailing wisdom" of some in the Ivory Tower.

[cathmom]

Plus, not knowing grammar severely hampers learning a foreign language. Of course, that's also considered unimportant.

[Karen sn]

This is exactly why I laugh when people worry about how we take our slow sweet time to get it right. My dd is 11 and has better letter writing skills.

 

A dear friend is in a magnet highschool (she is a junior) and lately I have been reading her awful spelling and grammar mistakes via facebook. I happen to know that this kid is smart and kind and beautiful. She's the whole package. BUT WHY is her spelling so atrocious? Not just a few mistakes either! I try not to be a snob, but I can't help it.

 

I am questioned all the time by people who wonder if I can teach my kid all she needs to know to graduate highschool and I ask them right back if they have seen the work from those who come out of those hallowed halls. These kids can not correctly use to, too, and two or there, their, and they're. Not to mention there are apostrophes all over the place in plural words!! And how many understand math or can count back change?

 

I would have expected your homeschooled niece to come out of it all with a much better understanding than she did. The homeschoolers I know are way ahead of their brick and mortar peers.....which isn't hard to do anymore!

 

BUT at least she did write a note. (I agree with the others who said it was a text message on paper).

[kiana]

I received a degree in Secondary English Education. I distinctly remember (and being horrified by) the proposition being put forth by some of my "education" professors that explicitly teaching grammar was unnecessary because the students would "pick it up" as they read books. Yeah, maybe they'll "pick it up" somewhat, but their ability to deftly use language and parse meaning is hampered without it. Even my Mechanical Engineering husband agrees. He was also never taught phonics and wishes he had been (I'm so glad I received an old fashioned education, at least in part).

 

Thankfully, I went on to teach in an excellent school district that taught grammar and spelling (etc.) despite the "prevailing wisdom" of some in the Ivory Tower.

 

I think one of the mistakes they make is because adults who have internalized grammar and phonics and vocabulary don't formally think about phonics and grammar, they think that children ought to be able to use the rules without thinking about them as well.

[Karen sn]

I think poor grammar can be found across the board. I too have seen many homeschoolers, though, who write like that. We know homeschooled children who are ten years old and cannot read (because of lack of time, not a learning disability). We know many homeschooled children who start a sentence with, "me and her . . ."

 

I have found many moms who honestly do not have the time to educate their children -- at least not in academics.

 

I would guess, though, that there are many public schooled students who do likewise.

 

My dd was 10 when she could read. Some kids are just slow.

No learning disability, she just had trouble with d and b. She has grown out of it.

The muscles in the eye can take a while to develop.

 

However, she has never used incorrect English because we do not speak it incorrectly.

In fact, when she hears others use it wrong, she will comment, "That doesn't sound right."

 

I remember in junior high some kids from Kentucky moved to Florida and they had an AWFUL time in English class because they had such thick accents they could not spell, and they grew up hearing atrocious grammar at home. It was really hard for them. It was then that I understood how lucky I was to have been taught correctly at home.

[Janna]

I would have expected your homeschooled niece to come out of it all with a much better understanding than she did. The homeschoolers I know are way ahead of their brick and mortar peers.....which isn't hard to do anymore!

 

 

 

She wasn't homeschooled...I'm not sure where you got that. :confused:

[Nestof3]

I tried to make myself clear that the non-reading issue is not a developmental one. The mom told me that her daughter asks for lessons, but the mom doesn't have time.

 

 

 

My dd was 10 when she could read. Some kids are just slow.

No learning disability, she just had trouble with d and b. She has grown out of it.

The muscles in the eye can take a while to develop.

 

However, she has never used incorrect English because we do not speak it incorrectly.

In fact, when she hears others use it wrong, she will comment, "That doesn't sound right."

 

I remember in junior high some kids from Kentucky moved to Florida and they had an AWFUL time in English class because they had such thick accents they could not spell, and they grew up hearing atrocious grammar at home. It was really hard for them. It was then that I understood how lucky I was to have been taught correctly at home.

[Nestof3]

She wasn't homeschooled...I'm not sure where you got that. :confused:

 

When I read the thread, I thought H.S. stood for homeschool, not high school. Perhaps she made the same mistake.

[Janna]

Ahhh...gotcha. Thanks.

[readwithem]

I don't think she sent you a thank you note. It looks more like you received a thank you text message...on paper. It's quite sad that written communication is falling to this level.

 

:iagree::glare: Sadly electronics have made old fashioned communication a thing of the past.

[mcconnellboys]

This looks like typical texting to me....

[Valerie in MI]

My niece, 20, sent out wedding invitations last summer full of mistakes like those. I think she may be smart as she intends to major in physics and become a high school teacher, however you'd never know it by her writing or spelling. She just doesn't care, nor did her mother back when she was in grade school and I urged her to buy a spelling program to supplement what she was learning in school. My other two public schooled nieces write just as poorly.

[cathmom]

I was just looking at my daughter's dyslexia testing results, and happened to notice this. This may be interesting to those who thought that dyslexia doesn't affect grammar, capitalization, or punctuation.

 

In her CAT last year, she scored (percentile scores):

81 in vocabulary

68 in comprehension

96 in language expression

28 in language mechanics

 

That is a forty point drop off from her second lowest to her lowest! This test was given without accomodations.