Why aren't food stamps regulated like WIC?

[st_claire]

Yes, but if I have no money, and I can't buy snacks with FS, then where do I get the snacks to put in my purse?

 

Work? Friends? Family?

[caitlinsmom]

It won't be forever. It's a short term sacrifice. People on food stamps are not entitled to corn chips or soda pop on my tax dollar. I'm not trying to be rude here, really, I'm not.

quote]

 

It seems to me that there is an assumption being made that those of us on food stamps do not pay taxes and therefore should not have the right to buy what we wish. Taxes, SS and Medicare are the reason that we are on food stamps. We would be fine each month if it were not for those fixed deductions that we pay. So technically I should be able to buy chips and soda because it is my tax dollar also.

 

Now I realize that there are many people who abuse the system and do not contribute to the tax base (or society for that matter) but it has been in my experiance the exception not the rule. Maybe the abusers are the ones that we are talking more about but there are a lot more of us who use the system the correct way and contribute to it. You can not punish the masses because of a handful of abusers.

[st_claire]

We would be fine each month if it were not for those fixed deductions that we pay.

 

 

So instead of paying and getting it back, why not just not have it in the first place? No one is forced to pay, no one gets to tell someone else how to shop.

[caitlinsmom]

 

 

So instead of paying and getting it back, why not just not have it in the first place? No one is forced to pay, no one gets to tell someone else how to shop.

 

 

Using honest deductions that is how it comes out. Oh I am sure we could go and deduct another 10 kids or something and then we would be fine but for the sake of being honest that is how it works.

 

On another note also, we pay more in those deductions than we recieve in food stamps. We are no where close to reciveing the amounts that were previously posted in the thread.

[Crissy]

Here is an interesting article about The Food Stamp Program from The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

[TracyR]

Wow. Flordia recipents get a lot more then PA does. We don't get that much and we're a family of 6. I thought what we got was a lot. But we go through every bit of it.

We buy the healthy foods which take up a lot in food stamps because they are the most expensive foods.

There really are a lot of people out there that do not know how to eat healthy. Think about it. We have an obesity epidemic. So to them that is eating healthy.

Plus if you really check the prices on foods, all those unhealthy foods cost less then the healthy foods do. I wish it were the opposite. It cost less to get four boxes of mac and cheese then it does to buy a bag of apples.

Its really sad really. I know I depend on eating more natural foods due to blood sugar issues.

 

I don't think we're healthier because of WIC that's for sure. They need to cut out the juice, and instead provide families with more vouchers for fruit and veggies instead of the checks you get once a year to use at the farmers market. You need to eat fruits and veggies more then a few months out of the year.

 

I know here in PA you can purchase already made foods that are cold. But not warm foods. We aren't allowed to purchase anything that is not food on our food stamps.

 

As for the cake I can't really comment. I know a few times we actually bought small birthday cakes for our daughters when our youngest was really young , sick and in the hospital , and we didn't have a penny left to buy one ourselves.

Now if someone saw that they would of thought that we were being careless and buying birthday cakes with it with out truely knowing our story that we really didn't have any money left to buy our daughters a birthday cake at the time. Something to think about.

 

Again though I've seen people who paid out of pocket with their own money , and have had cartfulls of junk in their carts. Maybe we should start another thread on that too.

[Katrina]

I thought about reading this book, but the horrendous reviews on Amazon stopped me from ordering it. Does she talk like this in the whole book?

 

p. 175 "Ponytails are common, or, for the characteristic Wal-Martian beat up and hopeless look, straight shoulder length hair, parted in the middle and kept out of the face by two bobby pins."

 

(from a review) "I am pretty lefty in my politics and I couldn't stand this book. Here's an especially telling passage where she is describing the clothing sold in WalMart:

 

" ... sexless Russ and Bobbie Brooks lines, seemingly aimed at pudgy fourth-grade teachers with important barbeques to attend." "

 

It also said that she only worked for a month each time in three different states. I am wondering if anyone knows of an alternative book with more research and more compassion? I saw a recommendation for Scratch Beginnings as an alternative, but it sounds only slightly better-researched. Anything else out there? I would like my oldest dd and I to read a book on this together.

 

Well, I really liked this book. It's kinda hard to take out a couple of passages and get a real acurate feel for the book. Both my husband and I came away with a very different view point of the working poor in America. Since she lived it herself and reported on her experiences I don't see how her view point isn't valid. Anyway, I just thought I'd throw out that I like it! :001_smile:

[Impish]

This thread has been very interesting to me, looking from the outside in. Canada does not have a food stamp program at all. We have food banks instead. You are allowed to go once a month to a food bank, (as far as I know, others may operate differently) and that's it. Heaven help you the rest of the month if you can't make it stretch. Believe me, I've been in the position as a single parent when the food bank food was gone, the money was down to the last few dollars, and there was still more month to go. I would have loved to have had food stamps, and to have been able to get the bare necessities...milk, bread, fruit, vegetables. I've literally been in the position of having to debate between buying milk or bread because I couldn't afford both. I opted for bread, because it would fill tummies. I've gone without eating at all to ensure that my child would have another meal. Food stamps would have been a sheer Godsend to me. Thankfully, those days are more than a decade behind me now. I've since graduated college, went on to a career in health care, etc. But I'll never forget those days of hunger and terror, crying at night, wondering if I'd be able to pull us through, if my child would be better off if I'd placed them for adoption.

 

And folks are arguing about their rights to have snack foods. Honestly, I'm kinda stunned. You have no idea how lucky you are to have a program like food stamps at all.

[theresatwist]

i haven't read all the posts.

 

but, i remember reading in one of michael pollan's books that you can get take in a larger number of calories with less money if you buy junk food (processed foods) than if you buy produce, etc. the reason for that, he says, is because the government subsidizes corn, sugar, etc. however, the government does not subsidize the kinds of food they should be encouraging people to consume (e.g. fruits and vegetables). that's the reason a box of twinkies is less expensive than a package of carrots, even though if you think about it, it takes far more labor and ingredients to produce a twinkie.

 

the best way to change this? get rid of all these agricultural subsidies that we give to agribusinesses. we'd save far more tax dollars that way than we would preventing people on food stamps from buying wedding cakes.

 

in general, i agree with impish. there are certainly a few here and there who abuse the system. but, generally i'm happy to pay a little more in taxes so others can get enough to eat.

Edited May 29, 2009 by theresatwist

[Moxie]

Using honest deductions that is how it comes out. Oh I am sure we could go and deduct another 10 kids or something and then we would be fine but for the sake of being honest that is how it works.

 

 

 

This is OT but you should take as many deductions as you need to to pay your taxes without getting a big refund. There is nothing illegal or immoral about claiming 10 (or however many you need) deductions to keep from loaning the government money all year.

[ConnieB]

Do you have any family that you trust 100%? Give them the money. Then you qualify. They can give you "gifts" of money whenever you need it.

 

Hiding assets is fraud....I'd recommend thinking twice (or thrice) before doing this.

[ConnieB]

 

It is not illegal, it does not harm anyone, and it is working against an unjust system.

 

I beg to to differ...I responded to your original post, but now I'd like to clarify. If you have assets that you give to another person without compensation so that you can qualify for government aid, it's called Hiding Assets. And it is fraud.

 

If you were to sign over your house to someone else, but still live continue to live there, and then sign up for government aid....that too is hiding assets.

 

While this isn't food stamp related....another common way of Hiding Assets is when you think you might be sued, and so you sign over your house, car and bank accounts to another person to avoid having any assets with which the Plaintiff could collect against. Fraud.

 

 

And if you're caught Hiding Assets you can go to jail for it. Of course, that's the rub isn't it....IF you're caught. It comes back around to stopping the abuse of the system.

[Elaine]

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the idea of trying to regulate another person's lifestyle choices even when my tax money is involved.

 

 

 

I disagree. If you sign up to let the government take care of you, you are directly receiving another taxpayers money and that should be regulated.

 

Let me say up front that I think the whole system is broken and frankly, it's the governments fault. It's not the governments job to feed you or clothe you or house you or insure you, it's yours.

 

However, I WOULD love to see these agencies have more staff to investigate the abuses.

 

Noooo! Please!:001_smile: The gov't is big enough already. Make the people that are there do their actual job first, and then see what happens.

 

 

I am not without sympathy, I have been poor. I know what it is to sell my jewelry on Craig's List to pay for gas to drive to work. I know what it is to cry over there being no money to pay the mortgage. I know what it is to lose everything that you held dear. But the solution is not the government. It's dangerous.

 

 

I like what Benjamin Franklin has to say about it.

 

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."

[ConnieB]

You make a good point here. I have noticed that many low income families in our community buy their soap products and paper products from the Dollar Tree. I cringe at this, because ounce for ounce, sheet for sheet, item for item, these products are usually MORE expensive than what I purchase at the grocer's.

 

 

You know, I have such a hard time convincing people that it is RARELY a better bargain to buy things at the dollar store. Not only is the ounce for ounce not cheaper, but typically other items are of such poor quality that they don't last as long as a slightly more expensive item.

 

The other that I have a hard time understanding is people who shop at some of the more expensive stores in town....they're the same product in the same bag/can/box and yet they're more expensive....so what are you getting? The typical answer I get is that their store is prettier....or better lit. Ahhh ok, I'll pay more for that. Not.

 

It's down right funny when I take those stores' sales ads into my store and even their SALE price is higher (granted sometimes only by pennies, sometimes by much more).

 

Now I know some will say that the produce and meat are better quality at the expensive stores.....and that may be..... I rarely buy either at the grocery. I buy my produce directly from the farmer, so it's fresh and actually has real taste.....and I buy meat in bulk from a rancher......the meat I'm taking home today was walking around the fields I'm looking at just a couple days ago. And the taste is as good as a restaurant quality meat, which even the expensive stores can't match.

 

It all comes down to what is important to you and your family. I hope to never go back to buying peaches that have little juice and no flavor....I want my peach to dribble juice down my face and my mouth rejoice at the flavor. Others say they don't see a difference, which floors me. I can't imagine buying any of that to-go stuff at the deli....it looks like it's sat there all day and is all dried out. I'd rather go home, have one of those lucious peaches to tide me over and wait while I prepare a scratch meal. But....I'll bet others don't understand my jello addiction, lol. So, it probably all evens out. And...I guess that's why there are so many grocery stores in a 1 mile radius, lol.

[ConnieB]

I haven't read most of the replies, but if people start trying to tell food stamp recipients how to spend their benefits, then why not tell people on Medicaid and Medicare how they need to give up their bad health habits in order to have medical treatment paid by tax dollars? You could extend this to just about every government program that pays people a benefit.

 

(And I do not support telling food stamp recipients how to spend their benefits.)

 

On that same thought, maybe the government should tell people that they have so much money already saved and invested wisely that they don't need Social Security when they turn 65, and so we'll just give it to the food stamp program, lol. Or....tell you how you can spend your retirement.

 

It's a slippery slope when you started wanting regulation. Those of us old enough.....think de-regulation of the phone companies. Ack!

 

 

Yep...and maybe the government should tell all of us on this board how to educate our children. Yeah, that'd go over well, lol. Most of us homeschool so that the schools aren't telling us how to teach. But I guarantee you that I could find another board that would think this was an excellent idea and that they'd sign a petition for it right now, lol.

[ConnieB]

 

 

 

 

From there you could get really nit-picky and ask if you will allow people to eat white bread. It is not healthy by any stretch of the imagination, so why should they be allowed to buy it if not chips and coke? So restict them to only wheat bread. But wheat bread cost twice what white bread does, so would you then all an increase benefits to allow for higher quality food?.

 

For that matter, why do we even allow white bread to be sold? It can't even be thrown into the "occasional treat" category like soda and chips. It's worthless nutritionally, so perhaps we should ban it. LOL

 

 

As for your comment about not being able to afford the insulin that works better.....have you tried contacting the manufacturer of that insulin? Many of the pharm companies have programs to help low-income afford medication....especially life saving things like insulin. I don't have details, I just know several people who get their meds straight from the manufacturer at a fraction of the cost (and in some cases free) because they are low income, no insurance or both. It would certainly be worth a few phone calls to see if you qualify.

[Katrina]

i haven't read all the posts.

 

but, i remember reading in one of michael pollan's books that you can get take in a larger number of calories with less money if you buy junk food (processed foods) than if you buy produce, etc. the reason for that, he says, is because the government subsidizes corn, sugar, etc. however, the government does not subsidize the kinds of food they should be encouraging people to consume (e.g. fruits and vegetables). that's the reason a box of twinkies is less expensive than a package of carrots, even though if you think about it, it takes far more labor and ingredients to produce a twinkie.

 

the best way to change this? get rid of all these agricultural subsidies that we give to agribusinesses. we'd save far more tax dollars that way than we would preventing people on food stamps from buying wedding cakes.

 

in general, i agree with impish. there are certainly a few here and there who abuse the system. but, generally i'm happy to pay a little more in taxes so others can get enough to eat.

 

There a very interesting book I've just read, called It's a Long Road To a Tomato by Keith Stewart. It's more of a small collection of essays he's written about being a small organic farmer in this day and age. It's really enlightening.

 

Yes, I agree that we should get rid of the agricultural subsidies and single crop farming in this country as well.

[KingM]

Let me say up front that I think the whole system is broken and frankly, it's the governments fault. It's not the governments job to feed you or clothe you or house you or insure you, it's yours.

 

 

If it weren't for government aid, some people would literally starve to death. Maybe not many, maybe not usually, but some people--some children--would die if they weren't getting assistance. For every child who died, there would be a hundred who lived in aching hunger, with mental and physical growth stunted.

 

The government system isn't that great, encourages laziness in some people, and is rife with abuse.

 

The alternative is far worse.

[Crissy]

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."

 

I wonder if Benjamin Franklin could have even imagined the state of food production in the 2000s.

In his day what tiny percentage of the population did not have the space and the ability to grow much of their own food? Compared, of course, to so many of our people today who wouldn't have room to grow more than a couple of tomato plants even if they did have the know-how.

[ConnieB]

ithat's the reason a box of twinkies is less expensive than a package of carrots, even though if you think about it, it takes far more labor and ingredients to produce a twinkie.

 

.

 

Wow...not around here! I can buy a pound of carrots for less than a dollar, but a box of twinkies is several dollars.

 

I find in times of food budget crisis that heaping our plates with even more veggies and having the meat portion either non-existant or just an ounce or two for taste stretches the budget enormousely. Meat is the most expensive part of our food budget, bar none. We buy our meat in bulk directly from the rancher and it's cheaper per pound than the sales I see at the grocer....but it still averages about $2 a pound. And it's good quality too. The really icky ground beef (70% fat) is usually that much (maybe $1.80 on sale). Even London Broil which I consider the low end of steaks is $2.29 on sale around here. I miss living near the wharf and being able to go get fish literally off the boats......I haven't found anywhere in our land-locked state to buy it in bulk or cheap or even with a lot of flavor. Instead you spend $5 or more a pound for lifeless tasteless fish that requires a marinade before we want to eat it. When I lived in San Francisco, you could pick up a fish fresh off the boat go home and broil it and it was heavenly tasting with just a dab of butter and salt. Plain wasn't too bad either.

 

 

Vegetables are so cheap.....both at the grocer and at the farmer's market....a 5 lb sack of potatoes is a dollar; a pound of squash is rarely over $1.25 (and often on sale for under a dollar); carrots, celery, brocolli, all average a dollar a pound...some weeks up some down. Red/Green/Romaine lettuce is on sale every other week for 77 or 88 cents....regular price is 99. Jicama adds a lot of oomph to a stir fry and is well under a dollar a pound. Green peppers are always cheap, but the red/yellow/orange are often on great sales as well (and when they are I buy pounds and pounds of them, chop them up and freeze them for use in stir fry when the fresh price is too high. Fruits in season tend to be inexpensive, and if bought from a farmer's market are tasty enough to be dessert.

 

Rice and other grains are also cheap if bought in bulk...buy it at an Asian market and it's about $10 for 25 pounds. Buy it at the grocer at a one pound bag will cost you a dollar and change. We asked at the grocery bakery for an empty frosting bucket, it was free....cleaned it really well, and store our rice in that. Same with flour and sugar, buy in 20-25 pound bulk and it's dimes a pound instead of dollars.

[Impish]

:iagree:

You know, I agree that its our own responsibilities to feed and clothe ourselves. Absolutely.

 

But.

 

What of the child whose been bounced through the foster care system, who was preyed upon by her foster father, abused by him, seduced by him into an adult relationship at the age of 15, finally leaves him after years of physical, psychological, and sexual abuse just before she turns 20 with a six month old baby in tow? She has no job skills, no high school diploma...how would you suggest she support herself and her child without government assistance for a time? I'm not talking forever, but obviously she's not in a place to go out and get a job making enough money for rent, food and daycare the next day.

 

What of other women who finally leave abusive relationships after decades who are in similar situations, no job skills and more children?

 

What of families where the father has always had a good job and suddenly the company closes?

 

What of families where suddenly the main bread winner is cancer stricken?

 

What of families where there is suddenly divorce? Death? Disability?

 

There are a myriad of things in life that strike without warning, that through no fault of their own find families in need of government assistance. The key there is ASSISTANCE. Not lifestyle. Assistance. Welfare, foodstamps, etc are not meant to be for life, they're meant to be a temporary solution to a temporary problem...at least thats how I understand the situation to be.

 

I lived through one of the above situations. I came out the other side and have the scars on my soul to prove it. Without government assistance, abused women and their children would have no means of escape. None. Would you condemn them to a lifetime at the hands of their abuser? Many of them return to their abuser because the government assistance is so paltry here in Canada. Again, we don't have food stamps. Welfare is so disgustingly paltry that by the time you pay rent, you're lucky if you have $100 left over for food for the month...and that's strictly subtracting rent from the money you're given, not even looking at stuff like bills. Of course, I'm talking about the ppl that can't get into low income housing, because there's often a several YEAR wait for that. A single mother with 2 children gets $850 a month in my city, last I heard. Average rent on a 2 bdrm was running about $750 last I checked...probably higher now, since when I was looking was 6 yrs or so ago. With those numbers staring a desperate woman in the face, many choose to return to their abusers, because at least they can guarantee their children will eat.

[TraceyS/FL]

Wow...not around here! I can buy a pound of carrots for less than a dollar, but a box of twinkies is several dollars.

 

I find in times of food budget crisis that heaping our plates with even more veggies and having the meat portion either non-existant or just an ounce or two for taste stretches the budget enormousely. Meat is the most expensive part of our food budget, bar none. We buy our meat in bulk directly from the rancher and it's cheaper per pound than the sales I see at the grocer....but it still averages about $2 a pound. And it's good quality too. The really icky ground beef (70% fat) is usually that much (maybe $1.80 on sale). Even London Broil which I consider the low end of steaks is $2.29 on sale around here. I miss living near the wharf and being able to go get fish literally off the boats......I haven't found anywhere in our land-locked state to buy it in bulk or cheap or even with a lot of flavor. Instead you spend $5 or more a pound for lifeless tasteless fish that requires a marinade before we want to eat it. When I lived in San Francisco, you could pick up a fish fresh off the boat go home and broil it and it was heavenly tasting with just a dab of butter and salt. Plain wasn't too bad either.

 

 

Vegetables are so cheap.....both at the grocer and at the farmer's market....a 5 lb sack of potatoes is a dollar; a pound of squash is rarely over $1.25 (and often on sale for under a dollar); carrots, celery, brocolli, all average a dollar a pound...some weeks up some down. Red/Green/Romaine lettuce is on sale every other week for 77 or 88 cents....regular price is 99. Jicama adds a lot of oomph to a stir fry and is well under a dollar a pound. Green peppers are always cheap, but the red/yellow/orange are often on great sales as well (and when they are I buy pounds and pounds of them, chop them up and freeze them for use in stir fry when the fresh price is too high. Fruits in season tend to be inexpensive, and if bought from a farmer's market are tasty enough to be dessert.

 

Rice and other grains are also cheap if bought in bulk...buy it at an Asian market and it's about $10 for 25 pounds. Buy it at the grocer at a one pound bag will cost you a dollar and change. We asked at the grocery bakery for an empty frosting bucket, it was free....cleaned it really well, and store our rice in that. Same with flour and sugar, buy in 20-25 pound bulk and it's dimes a pound instead of dollars.

 

Where do you live? Not around here....

 

Heck, they weren't "cheap" when i lived in CA where it was local produce i was buying.

 

But not everyone has a good market to shop at either....

 

Bell Peppers here in FL - i'm happy to pay less than a dollar EACH.

[Carrie12345]

Wow...not around here! I can buy a pound of carrots for less than a dollar, but a box of twinkies is several dollars.

...

I Meat is the most expensive part of our food budget, bar none. We buy our meat in bulk directly from the rancher and it's cheaper per pound than the sales I see at the grocer....but it still averages about $2 a pound. And it's good quality too. The really icky ground beef (70% fat) is usually that much (maybe $1.80 on sale). Even London Broil which I consider the low end of steaks is $2.29 on sale around here. I miss living near the wharf and being able to go get fish literally off the boats......I haven't found anywhere in our land-locked state to buy it in bulk or cheap or even with a lot of flavor. Instead you spend $5 or more a pound for lifeless tasteless fish that requires a marinade before we want to eat it. When I lived in San Francisco, you could pick up a fish fresh off the boat go home and broil it and it was heavenly tasting with just a dab of butter and salt. Plain wasn't too bad either.

....

Vegetables are so cheap.....both at the grocer and at the farmer's market....a 5 lb sack of potatoes is a dollar; a pound of squash is rarely over $1.25 (and often on sale for under a dollar); carrots, celery, brocolli, all average a dollar a pound...some weeks up some down. Red/Green/Romaine lettuce is on sale every other week for 77 or 88 cents....regular price is 99. Jicama adds a lot of oomph to a stir fry and is well under a dollar a pound. Green peppers are always cheap, but the red/yellow/orange are often on great sales as well (and when they are I buy pounds and pounds of them, chop them up and freeze them for use in stir fry when the fresh price is too high. Fruits in season tend to be inexpensive, and if bought from a farmer's market are tasty enough to be dessert.

 

Rice and other grains are also cheap if bought in bulk...buy it at an Asian market and it's about $10 for 25 pounds. Buy it at the grocer at a one pound bag will cost you a dollar and change. We asked at the grocery bakery for an empty frosting bucket, it was free....cleaned it really well, and store our rice in that. Same with flour and sugar, buy in 20-25 pound bulk and it's dimes a pound instead of dollars.

 

Picture the housing projects of NY for a minute. Pan out a bit. How many farms are you picturing?

[Aggie]

:iagree:

You know, I agree that its our own responsibilities to feed and clothe ourselves. Absolutely.

 

But.

 

What of the child whose been bounced through the foster care system, who was preyed upon by her foster father, abused by him, seduced by him into an adult relationship at the age of 15, finally leaves him after years of physical, psychological, and sexual abuse just before she turns 20 with a six month old baby in tow? She has no job skills, no high school diploma...how would you suggest she support herself and her child without government assistance for a time? I'm not talking forever, but obviously she's not in a place to go out and get a job making enough money for rent, food and daycare the next day.

 

What of other women who finally leave abusive relationships after decades who are in similar situations, no job skills and more children?

 

What of families where the father has always had a good job and suddenly the company closes?

 

What of families where suddenly the main bread winner is cancer stricken?

 

What of families where there is suddenly divorce? Death? Disability?

 

There are a myriad of things in life that strike without warning, that through no fault of their own find families in need of government assistance. The key there is ASSISTANCE. Not lifestyle. Assistance. Welfare, foodstamps, etc are not meant to be for life, they're meant to be a temporary solution to a temporary problem...at least thats how I understand the situation to be.

 

I lived through one of the above situations. I came out the other side and have the scars on my soul to prove it. Without government assistance, abused women and their children would have no means of escape. None. Would you condemn them to a lifetime at the hands of their abuser? Many of them return to their abuser because the government assistance is so paltry here in Canada. Again, we don't have food stamps. Welfare is so disgustingly paltry that by the time you pay rent, you're lucky if you have $100 left over for food for the month...and that's strictly subtracting rent from the money you're given, not even looking at stuff like bills. Of course, I'm talking about the ppl that can't get into low income housing, because there's often a several YEAR wait for that. A single mother with 2 children gets $850 a month in my city, last I heard. Average rent on a 2 bdrm was running about $750 last I checked...probably higher now, since when I was looking was 6 yrs or so ago. With those numbers staring a desperate woman in the face, many choose to return to their abusers, because at least they can guarantee their children will eat.

 

 

My biggest issue is that the *government* is in charge of our FS, WIC, housing projects, Medicare, etc. Our government has a poor track record as far as stopping fraud and abuse.

 

What many people would consider as a viable option is a non-profit running the FS/housing programs. With a CEO, not a politician, running it. I think most US citizens would voluntarily contribute more than enough to stop hunger and homelessness.

 

A good example is St. Jude's Children's Hosp. As far as I know, they receive no gov't funds, and yet they are able to accept *every* child who needs care.

 

Another example is Habitat for Humanity. Gov't funds? No, I don't think so. Volunteers, contributions, and some accountability on the receiver's side.

 

The people in the US aren't uncaring and unkind and stingy. We just want less fraud and abuse with our hard-earned money.

[Elaine]

My biggest issue is that the *government* is in charge of our FS, WIC, housing projects, Medicare, etc. Our government has a poor track record as far as stopping fraud and abuse.

 

What many people would consider as a viable option is a non-profit running the FS/housing programs. With a CEO, not a politician, running it. I think most US citizens would voluntarily contribute more than enough to stop hunger and homelessness.

 

A good example is St. Jude's Children's Hosp. As far as I know, they receive no gov't funds, and yet they are able to accept *every* child who needs care.

 

Another example is Habitat for Humanity. Gov't funds? No, I don't think so. Volunteers, contributions, and some accountability on the receiver's side.

 

The people in the US aren't uncaring and unkind and stingy. We just want less fraud and abuse with our hard-earned money.

 

Excellent post! I could not agree more.

[KingM]

My biggest issue is that the *government* is in charge of our FS, WIC, housing projects, Medicare, etc. Our government has a poor track record as far as stopping fraud and abuse.

 

What many people would consider as a viable option is a non-profit running the FS/housing programs. With a CEO, not a politician, running it.

 

A CEO? So it can be run like Enron, GM, Bear Stearns, or Arthur Anderson? You might notice CEOs don't exactly have the best track record lately.

 

A good example is St. Jude's Children's Hosp. As far as I know, they receive no gov't funds, and yet they are able to accept *every* child who needs care.

 

They can do this in part because the government is doing most the heavy lifting. Would private charity really pay enough to keep the working poor in their homes, or to pay for free lunch for millions of hungry school children?

 

The people in the US aren't uncaring and unkind and stingy. We just want less fraud and abuse with our hard-earned money.

 

For thousands of years the only available aid was private or parochial. People starved, lived in the gutters, and died of disease by the tens of millions.

 

I'm all for rooting out abuse, but I think there is a role in a compassionate society for a government-run, taxpayer funded social safety net.

 

Also, let me point out that many private charities pay 80% or more of their income in "administrative" expenses. There are those that are well run, but many, many that pass along very little of what they collect.

[Aggie]

A CEO? So it can be run like Enron, GM, Bear Stearns, or Arthur Anderson? You might notice CEOs don't exactly have the best track record lately.

 

None of these are private charities, either. :) If a charity has a CEO, a board, and *accountability*, we can choose which charities to support. As it stands now, we can't choose to support or not support fraud. We're forced to support the gov't programs.

 

 

 

"They can do this in part because the government is doing most the heavy lifting. Would private charity really pay enough to keep the working poor in their homes, or to pay for free lunch for millions of hungry school children?"

 

I think if we had more of our tax money back, we would contribute even more to charities. The more our money is stolen from us by the gov't to poorly run more programs, the less we have to give to charity.

 

 

 

"For thousands of years the only available aid was private or parochial. People starved, lived in the gutters, and died of disease by the tens of millions."

But we're talking about the US right now.

 

"I'm all for rooting out abuse, but I think there is a role in a compassionate society for a government-run, taxpayer funded social safety net.

 

Also, let me point out that many private charities pay 80% or more of their income in "administrative" expenses. There are those that are well run, but many, many that pass along very little of what they collect."

 

But, see, we can choose which charities to contribute to. We are not forced to support one that has bad management, which our gov't is known to have.

 

And I'm not saying all the gov't programs are bad. I understand the basic reason they exist. But the programs are getting bigger and bigger with less accountability for both the programs' administrations and the people who receive benefits.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Aggie

[Cheryl in NM]

Okay, it all boils down to if you are taking money from the government they have the right to tell you what to do with it. If you don't like it figure out another way. This sense of entitlement is sickening. "I can't afford to feed my family so I'll take government aid, but I MUST be able to buy all the things that everyone else eats also." Really? Are you serious? What ever hapened to being thankful for what you have? Be happy you are receiving aid and make every penny count. Pretend you are spending someone else's money on YOUR food...because you are. I'm not saying those on fs are less, but quit telling me you are entitled to cokes and a bag of chips. Neither of which I can afford to buy for my family. It sounds as if there's a big gap between food stamps and being able to buy your own food. Many people on this thread have stated that they don't have food budgets as high as those receiving food stamps. If that's the case, why would anyone get off food stamps. It simply does not have the stigma it used to.

 

As far as being on foodstamps because of income tax, SS & Medicare taxes - most of those are refunded at the end of year if you are poor enough to qualify for food stamps. In fact, I would venture to guess that those that qualify for food stamps also qualify for Earned Income Credit, which is just a handout. Again, if you need it, great, but don't complain about all the taxes you pay.

 

Simplicity....I wasn't offended..you missed my point. I was not exagerating to make my point, but you felt you needed to exagerate to make yours. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

[joannqn]

Wow...not around here! I can buy a pound of carrots for less than a dollar, but a box of twinkies is several dollars.

 

Vegetables are so cheap.....both at the grocer and at the farmer's market....a 5 lb sack of potatoes is a dollar; a pound of squash is rarely over $1.25 (and often on sale for under a dollar); carrots, celery, brocolli, all average a dollar a pound...some weeks up some down. Red/Green/Romaine lettuce is on sale every other week for 77 or 88 cents....regular price is 99. Jicama adds a lot of oomph to a stir fry and is well under a dollar a pound. Green peppers are always cheap, but the red/yellow/orange are often on great sales as well (and when they are I buy pounds and pounds of them, chop them up and freeze them for use in stir fry when the fresh price is too high. Fruits in season tend to be inexpensive, and if bought from a farmer's market are tasty enough to be dessert.

 

Rice and other grains are also cheap if bought in bulk...buy it at an Asian market and it's about $10 for 25 pounds. Buy it at the grocer at a one pound bag will cost you a dollar and change. We asked at the grocery bakery for an empty frosting bucket, it was free....cleaned it really well, and store our rice in that. Same with flour and sugar, buy in 20-25 pound bulk and it's dimes a pound instead of dollars.

 

We don't see those prices here.

 

I can get carrots for 79lb so that's decent.

5lb bags of potatoes are $2.99.

Celery is $1.50lb.

Broccoli is $1.48lb.

Lettuce is usually $1.89 a head & sometimes the heads are 1/2 normal size.

Green bell peppers are currently $1.50 each.

Red/Orange/Yellow bell peppers are $2.50 each.

Jicama is $2.50 each (average 1.4lbs)

Apricots are currently $3.99lb.

Peaches are $2.98lb.

Apples are $1.50 to $3lb depending on variety (and I'm in the apple state).

Tomatoes are $1.50-$4lb depending on variety.

 

Frozen and canned veggies are much cheaper than fresh, especially if on sale and/or with a coupon. Canned fruit is cheaper than fresh.

 

As much as I love my homemade spaghetti, I buy bottled now as it is much cheaper. I can get Ragu for 75 cents a bottle on sale with a coupon. I can't beat the price of frozen lasagna either. Kraft Mac and Cheese can be bought for 50 cents a box but the pasta/cheese/milk needed to make it costs much more than that. I brought home 4 boxes of Capri Sun for free a couple of weeks ago where frozen condensed juice is $2 each.

 

ETA to say that we find pasta, rice, beans, and produce aren't very filling unless a decent chunk of meat is served with it so we need to eat double our normal portion of food. If I eat, say a huge pile of brown rice with lots of beans on top, a large salad, and a large ww roll, I'll be hungry again within an hour. Meat is not an option in our house.

Edited May 29, 2009 by joannqn

[KingM]

There are lots of countries with very little aid and lots of countries that provide aid to the poor. It's pretty easy to see what kind of aid the poor will or will not receive from private organizations by looking at countries without government assistance. Very little.

 

Again, I'm not claiming that the system is perfect and that there aren't people milking it. I'm happy, however, that a very small percentage of my taxes go to helping the poorest, most vulnerable segment of our society. A society that didn't try to help the poor is not one where I would like to live.

[Impish]

Aggie, my point was that there *is* a time and place for assistance. That doing away with it altogether is to do harm to the most vulnerable in society. Now, if its provided by the government, or by another body, I don't know which would be better...I wouldn't give up our health care for anything, but I definately envy your food stamp program, or at least would have when I was starving. Literally. Heck, I envy it now. The amount quoted for a family my size is just a few dollars shy of what I pay in rent! I can't imagine having $793 a month to spend on groceries! I'd think I'd died and gone to heaven, lol! And I'm pretty sure, from comparing grocery prices with friends in the States, that our groceries are more expensive than yours are!

 

We're not 'poor' per say, we're doing a little better than scraping by now in that we indulge in the odd pizza night, or 6 pack for dh, that sort of 'living large'. Still, our grocery budget is about $500 a month for a family of 5. Food stamps is almost $300 more than that.

 

I kinda feel ill, thinking about it.

[ConnieB]

Picture the housing projects of NY for a minute. Pan out a bit. How many farms are you picturing?

 

Doesn't necessarily mean that the farming is done in that neighborhood.....for us a few farms are within 30 minutes drive if you want to go pick yourself (thanks but not in this heat, lol).....and they and further away farms bring it in....but the difference is they picked it this week, when it was ripe and will be at market tomorrow to sell it. The grocery store stuff was picked a week or two ago and has been bouncing on a truck for days instead of an hour or two.

 

As for New York....you didn't say where you are specifically enough, but here is one that shows many farmer's markets in and around New York, divided by region.

 

http://www.nyfarmersmarket.com/regions.htm

[ConnieB]

We don't see those prices here.

 

I can get carrots for 79lb so that's decent.

5lb bags of potatoes are $2.99.

Celery is $1.50lb.

Broccoli is $1.48lb.

Lettuce is usually $1.89 a head & sometimes the heads are 1/2 normal size.

Green bell peppers are currently $1.50 each.

Red/Orange/Yellow bell peppers are $2.50 each.

Jicama is $2.50 each (average 1.4lbs)

Apricots are currently $3.99lb.

Peaches are $2.98lb.

Apples are $1.50 to $3lb depending on variety (and I'm in the apple state).

Tomatoes are $1.50-$4lb depending on variety.

 

Frozen and canned veggies are much cheaper than fresh, especially if on sale and/or with a coupon. Canned fruit is cheaper than fresh.

 

As much as I love my homemade spaghetti, I buy bottled now as it is much cheaper. I can get Ragu for 75 cents a bottle on sale with a coupon. I can't beat the price of frozen lasagna either. Kraft Mac and Cheese can be bought for 50 cents a box but the pasta/cheese/milk needed to make it costs much more than that. I brought home 4 boxes of Capri Sun for free a couple of weeks ago where frozen condensed juice is $2 each.

 

ETA to say that we find pasta, rice, beans, and produce aren't very filling unless a decent chunk of meat is served with it so we need to eat double our normal portion of food. If I eat, say a huge pile of brown rice with lots of beans on top, a large salad, and a large ww roll, I'll be hungry again within an hour. Meat is not an option in our house.

 

 

Wow....I'm floored at the cost of your produce. Those kinds of prices are just a little bit less than the "organic" stuff here.

 

I realized that prices vary state to state, but I didn't realize it was quite that bad (and I'm now glad DH didn't take the position in Tacoma several years ago....I didn't want it because of the constant rain, lol).

 

Funny, because when I watch the news and they talk about the "national average" for gas, we are ALWAYS above it.....sometimes as much as 30 or 40 cents a gallon, and back when it was creeping up to $4 we saw that long before the national news reported on it. I knew that our housing prices weren't quite as bad as other major cities (SF, LA, NY), but we have so many Californians coming here because they can't afford their state anymore, making our housing prices increase, I figured that was our only saving grace. Our housing prices are $10k or so below the national average last time I saw a report comparing them....but that was before the foreclosure too. And 4 houses on our street have been foreclosed on, and several more have for sale signs. Neighbor came over asking if DH's employer was hiring. It's getting scary, lol.

[TraceyS/FL]

Wow....I'm floored at the cost of your produce. Those kinds of prices are just a little bit less than the "organic" stuff here.

 

I realized that prices vary state to state, but I didn't realize it was quite that bad (and I'm now glad DH didn't take the position in Tacoma several years ago....I didn't want it because of the constant rain, lol).

 

Her prices are about what they are here in Central Florida too.

 

And the markets i have been too - at the flea market and then our town has a less than 5 table one now, those prices are the same or higher than the store.

[elegantlion]

Her prices are about what they are here in Central Florida too.

 

And the markets i have been too - at the flea market and then our town has a less than 5 table one now, those prices are the same or higher than the store.

 

:iagree:We're in south Louisiana and our cost of living is pretty low in comparison to other parts of the country, but our produce is about the same as joannqn listed. That doesn't even touch organic.

[lgm]

I'm a couple counties north of NYC, on the commuter rail line.

 

Prices similar to what Joannqn has posted on all the produce, except broccoli = never that low. Have bought 2 cauliflowers in the last five years; the rest are past their prime. Artichoke - you'd think it was a luxury. The price here is five times what is was in the downtown markets in Boston when we visited there (I so wanted to toss a few in my purse:) but they wouldn't have been edible by the time we arrived back home). Have never seen a jar of Ragu under $1.50 and that's only Walmart; everyone else is $2.38 or more. Hamburger has not been under $2.50/lb in ages; usually London Broil is cheaper.

Only one supermarket in this region doubles coupons...and they limit the double to $1 off...so if it's a 75 cents off, you get a dollar off.

The farmer's market here is priced for tourists, not locals. Pick your own is high too unless you go with the scouts and they give you a bag w/your admission to the entertainment stuff ( corn maze and such). We drive 20 miles to a local 3-store chain that buys from area farms and costs about the same as the other grocers, just fresher produce. (ie apples from NY, not WA and so forth)

Edited May 30, 2009 by lgm
spelling

[phathui5]

My point is that those recipes should be saved until the fs recipient is better off financially and can afford those ingredients. If I can't afford them without government assistance why in the world should the government pay for them for those on assistance?

 

Actually, "tortilla chip soup" is very healthy. But pretty lame without the actual chips.

 

White bread might not be nutional sound but it not in the same category as chips, sodas and candy!

 

I beg to differ. White bread has absolutely no nutritional value. They strip the wheat grain completely down and then add in some vitamins to make up for what they took out. Blue corn chips are more nutritious.

[phathui5]

*Phathui's husband*

 

A CEO? So it can be run like Enron, GM, Bear Stearns, or Arthur Anderson? You might notice CEOs don't exactly have the best track record lately.

 

Actually, the vast majority of businesses, both small and large, are corporations. All corporations have a CEO (in fact, all Corporations have a President, Vice-President, CEO, and Secretary. It's one of the things that makes a corporation a corporation). Picking a handful of them, out the thousands upon thousands that exist, is a little unfair.

 

My tax money goes to help these people. If they receive $100 of my money what do I care if they spend it on Coke or Pizza or Organic Produce. I hope and pray they make wise decisions with the money given them, but I don't want to limit them. In fact, I see no reason to limit them if it won't save taxpayers a penny. If they want to be frivolous then let them. I know that we did our best to support them. Let's not treat them like imbecile children. Who is to say what is junk food and what is not? What standard are we using? Let's not forget that in city many people lack grocery stores, they have corner stores which are little more than 7-11s. Sometimes people gotta grab whatever they can get.

 

It furthers the question if food stamps should exist at all. I believe that they largely should, despite my heavily libertarian tenancies. I see no reason why people should go hungry. If they choose to buy expensive crap and go hungry the last 10 days of the month, their bad. I did my part. I'm not their mother (or father).

[Kelli in TN]

I have read several pages of this thread. Pretty interesting opinions. I have never been on food stamps, but I have been behind people in checkout lines who are using the foodstamp card and many, many times their carts were full of chips and soft drinks and sweets. The closest there might have been to real food would be canned ravioli or hamburger helper. It's not a stretch for me to believe that cashiers see this a lot more than I do. I do believe using food stamps to buy a wedding cake is inappropriate.

 

I'm glad food stamps exist, however. A few years ago my brother and his wife were sent flying to the pavement when a woman in an oncoming car got distracted and hit their motorcycle almost head on. She was totally at fault, but it was nearly 3 years before they got the settlement. In that time my brother, whose lower leg and foot were crushed and whose shoulder was broken, was unable to continue his physically demanding job. My sister-in-law's entire leg was so damaged that it was some time before she could even walk unaided. Without food stamps I don't know what they would have done. Oh, yes I do. Their boys would have continued to live with me and my mother would have kept buying their groceries. Because of short term government help we were able to reunite their family and know that they could feed their family. They would not have had a problem with being limited to purchasing healthy foods, since that was the bulk of their shopping anyway.

[cathmom]

I don't know where you all live, but here a 5 lb bag of potatoes at a grocery store is $4.99. A bag of apples is $5. Produce is not cheap. Organic goes up from there.

[Joanne]

I've been told I take these threads too *personally*.

 

I used to believe all sorts of stereotypoes, generalizations and assumptions about people in "the system". Until I was one.

 

Last year, my DH, 3 children and I qualified for food stamps and my kids for medicaid. We soon improved enough that we no longer qualified for Food stamps.

 

And then we were laid off from the largest income source. School bus driving and bonus homeschool students end this month.

 

I am as I write at a job; I enjoy it but it's low paying. I will leave here to go @ 1 am to another low paying job.

 

We've had no less than 2 jobs while quslifying for food stamps.

 

I had a new interview today for food stamps. I drive a newish (but modest) minivan. I have a blackberry (donated by and paid for by my homeschool client). My dd's disease qualifies her as diabled and ONE of her meds cost 1500 a MONTH. My xh has paid $400 a month for 3 kids for 1.5 years while costing me more than that.

 

I can't sell this house. I have no equity. I do not have first and last month's rent. My credit rating is tanked.

 

Collection calls are constant as are disconnect notices.

 

How much *more* dignity can you/the government strip me of?

 

What's going to be the food police cut off?

 

Will pop tarts and toaster strudel be out but frozen quiche in?

 

Wonder bread, mayonaise and bologna out but whole wheat bread, turkey breast in?

 

Dried fruit ok but fruit coctail in heavy syrup and fruit roll ups not ok?

 

Regular block cheese ok but no velveeta?

 

Peanuts and popcorn ok but not Cracker Jacks?

 

Apples good but apple pie filling not so much?

 

Food pantries are wonderful things. They, too, are filled with less than nutritionally bountiful items. Items my family ate with gratitude. When the food pantry (for which I had to qualify) noticed my son's birthday, the included a cake mix, and a lego set. I stood there...crying heavily from gratitude, fear and hunility and - I'll say it - shame.

 

No, not everyone in the system is like me but today I believe the abuse is less than I used to and the amount of struggling, hard working types more. For that reason I will happily allow my tax dollars to go for some cakes and energy drinks if that means the rest of the people in the system can shop less conspicuoously, with less scrutiny and with a shred of dignity.

[KingM]

This thread reminds me a lot of the health care conversation. It seems that some people have philosophical difficulties with government involvement in providing a social safety net. I can respect that.

 

But I think it has been shown through numerous anecdotes of people on this board that in some cases, government aid--imperfect though it may be--is the only thing that works. In a world where resources are divided not by need but by skill, intelligence, and luck of birth, there needs to be a way to get resources to those people who truly need them. I can't see any better way to do it than a government-run system.

[Nestof3]

I've been told I take these threads too *personally*.

 

I used to believe all sorts of stereotypoes, generalizations and assumptions about people in "the system". Until I was one.

 

Last year, my DH, 3 children and I qualified for food stamps and my kids for medicaid. We soon improved enough that we no longer qualified for Food stamps.

 

And then we were laid off from the largest income source. School bus driving and bonus homeschool students end this month.

 

I am as I write at a job; I enjoy it but it's low paying. I will leave here to go @ 1 am to another low paying job.

 

We've had no less than 2 jobs while quslifying for food stamps.

 

I had a new interview today for food stamps. I drive a newish (but modest) minivan. I have a blackberry (donated by and paid for by my homeschool client). My dd's disease qualifies her as diabled and ONE of her meds cost 1500 a MONTH. My xh has paid $400 a month for 3 kids for 1.5 years while costing me more than that.

 

I can't sell this house. I have no equity. I do not have first and last month's rent. My credit rating is tanked.

 

Collection calls are constant as are disconnect notices.

 

How much *more* dignity can you/the government strip me of?

 

What's going to be the food police cut off?

 

Will pop tarts and toaster strudel be out but frozen quiche in?

 

Wonder bread, mayonaise and bologna out but whole wheat bread, turkey breast in?

 

Dried fruit ok but fruit coctail in heavy syrup and fruit roll ups not ok?

 

Regular block cheese ok but no velveeta?

 

Peanuts and popcorn ok but not Cracker Jacks?

 

Apples good but apple pie filling not so much?

 

Food pantries are wonderful things. They, too, are filled with less than nutritionally bountiful items. Items my family ate with gratitude. When the food pantry (for which I had to qualify) noticed my son's birthday, the included a cake mix, and a lego set. I stood there...crying heavily from gratitude, fear and hunility and - I'll say it - shame.

 

No, not everyone in the system is like me but today I believe the abuse is less than I used to and the amount of struggling, hard working types more. For that reason I will happily allow my tax dollars to go for some cakes and energy drinks if that means the rest of the people in the system can shop less conspicuoously, with less scrutiny and with a shred of dignity.

 

 

Joanne,

 

Yes, you probably do take these threads personally, but you are going to have to try to look at discussions like this -- should there be regulation -- as just that. Each of us has to make the most honorable choices, but we should never be beyond being teachable or beyond accountability.

 

Of course I am saddened to hear of various difficulties you and your family are having, and of course your story has merit.

 

But, your story does not nullify all of the stories from people who are NOT choosing to make honorable decisions yet accepting tax money. What bothers me is the lack of honor more than the money, truthfully. Shall I share my stories?

 

Young man (wreckless driving record, alcohol abuser) meets young lady (cocaine user) -- through church youth group. He impregnates girl, they're both on system now. They both still have money for drugs, alcohol and cigarettes. This is the man my husband hired. He needs a day off a week, on average, for driving improvement, court appearances, ultrasounds (plural -- my personal health insurance plan only covered one), etc. Sometimes he just doesn't show up for work. Instead of working in the evenings to make more money before the baby comes, he parties. He comes to work reeking of alcohol. They are living in a hotel right now because all family members have kicked them out for failure to respect their property.

 

My cousin. Three children from three different men, married none of them. They buy season passes to Busch Gardens, she buys these hundred dollar cars (through credit cards) to put on display in her house. They afford Nascar tickets. They are on all gov't services available to man.

 

Your story does not nullify these any more than their stories describe you.

 

We met a man at our old church who was always asking for money for his family. He was usually given it. My husband and I stopped giving to the church and gave our money on an individual basis because we did not agree with the way the church parcelled out money. He would start to moan about how he didn't have gas money to take his daughter to her ice skating lessons. One day I told him that his daughter was old enough to understand that sometimes there just aren't funds available for extracurricular activities. The men at the church offered to sit down with this man to go over his finances to see if they could offer wisdom. Nope -- he didn't want help, he only wanted the money.

 

For what it's worth, my Dad grew up in a family where for the new school year, you didn't get new shoes, my grandmother just shoe-polished the old ones. The hem on pants was let down for growing boys. Thrift stores obviously weren't big back then. My grandfather did not stop working to collect social security just because he was 62 or 65. He kept the role of provider until he could no longer work. They didn't have all the latest toys -- many years went by without the bike my Dad so wanted.

 

My mother's family was poorer. Meat was always mixed with, for example, bread to make it go farther. They had their own garden to help.

Edited May 30, 2009 by nestof3

[TXMomof4]

I agree that there are differences that make it hard to discuss these things without someone feeling shamed, humiliated, or embarrassed. But I think those emotions right there would tell you that you aren't taking the system for granted or abusing it.

 

My mother worked for years at a low income school and that definately has shaped my opinion of food stamp/welfare abuse. Watching those children come to school dirty and hungry while their parents drove BMWs and Lexus was infuriating. It wasn't just one or two kids - the well-fed and clothed children were the exception in every class she taught.

 

Now I'm watching a family member pull the same carp and it makes me want to pull my hair out. They are only getting WIC, but they are able to afford a $1000.00 television when they won't buy their own milk.

 

Joanne, I would be the first person in line to help someone in need. I have been hungry and wish I could find a way to prevent anyone from being hungry ever again, I am just a little cynical of the system overall because of my personal experiences with it. I think everyone agree that the system would be more efficient if it weren't abused, but how do you make it less able to be abused? Maybe regulation isn't the answer, but I'm not sure what the answer is.

[KingM]

Dawn,

 

There will always be people who make poor choices. When I'm in Mexico I see a lot of people begging around churches or in public squares whose main problem appears to be alcoholism. I also see widows with hunched backs and children in rags, but let's focus on the drunks and others who are dirty and starving because of their own bad choices.

 

Mexico is not a particularly poor country compared to many others around the world. A second tier country. There are millions of people living a middle class lifestyle and plenty of fabulously rich people as well. Carlos Slim is the third richest man in the world, after Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, and worth tens of billions of dollars.

 

But Mexico has very low taxes and very weak government spending as a percentage of GNP. As a result the infrastructure is poor, monopolies overcharge people for phone and telecommunications (that's how Carlos Slim made his fortune), the air and water are polluted due to poor regulations, and when the poor half of the country slips, it doesn't take much at all to turn them into beggars or send them fleeing across the northern border in search of a job in a foreign country.

 

Now for the United States, with so many more resources than Mexico, to roll back our social safety net, to continue to let tens of millions of people live without health insurance and just be one medical emergency from disaster...well, it doesn't matter what your political/religious persuasion, I consider that wrong. It's neither Christian nor Humanist.

[cathmom]

 

Now for the United States, with so many more resources than Mexico, to roll back our social safety net, to continue to let tens of millions of people live without health insurance and just be one medical emergency from disaster...well, it doesn't matter what your political/religious persuasion, I consider that wrong. It's neither Christian nor Humanist.

 

Hear, Hear!!!

 

:iagree:

[Nestof3]

Dawn,

 

There will always be people who make poor choices. When I'm in Mexico I see a lot of people begging around churches or in public squares whose main problem appears to be alcoholism. I also see widows with hunched backs and children in rags, but let's focus on the drunks and others who are dirty and starving because of their own bad choices.

 

Mexico is not a particularly poor country compared to many others around the world. A second tier country. There are millions of people living a middle class lifestyle and plenty of fabulously rich people as well. Carlos Slim is the third richest man in the world, after Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, and worth tens of billions of dollars.

 

But Mexico has very low taxes and very weak government spending as a percentage of GNP. As a result the infrastructure is poor, monopolies overcharge people for phone and telecommunications (that's how Carlos Slim made his fortune), the air and water are polluted due to poor regulations, and when the poor half of the country slips, it doesn't take much at all to turn them into beggars or send them fleeing across the northern border in search of a job in a foreign country.

 

Now for the United States, with so many more resources than Mexico, to roll back our social safety net, to continue to let tens of millions of people live without health insurance and just be one medical emergency from disaster...well, it doesn't matter what your political/religious persuasion, I consider that wrong. It's neither Christian nor Humanist.

 

And, where do these US tax resources come from? The people -- particularly people with money. (If a family is on several gov't programs, the reality is that they may be paying into social security and medicare -- of which they will most likely draw more than they contribute -- but very little of their income is actually taxed beyond that). These people should have the assurance that the money is not being squandered. This is impossible by gov't control, of course, and really, so is the accountability that is needed.

 

On a person level, my husband and I don't just give money to everyone who has an apparent need. We expect accountability and a teachability when someone comes forward with a need.

 

My husband's helper, for example, does not need more money. He needs to show up to work every day. He needs to make providing for his family a priority. He needs to stop squandering what he does have. Only once he acts with that integrity will he ever move beyond where he is now. My husband should have canned the guy a long time ago. I don't care to describe what he has cost our company so far. My husband has to mother him, check up on him, etc. Right now, he is acting as a taker and giving nothing back to the world. I have met many people like this, and they are costing our country in reputation, integrity and resources.

 

My husband has asked that his business be about more than just making money and mowing lawns, so he has chosen to keep this guy on hoping he can make a difference. He does so not by giving him extra money, but by exhorting him on a daily basis to change and providing him some stability which he earns.

[Joanne]

My mother worked for years at a low income school and that definately has shaped my opinion of food stamp/welfare abuse. Watching those children come to school dirty and hungry while their parents drove BMWs and Lexus was infuriating.

 

I'm sorry and I don't mean to disrespect your or your mom's experience. I find the flagrant disregard and abuse of the system represented in your post to be very, very rare.

[KingM]

I'm sorry and I don't mean to disrespect your or your mom's experience. I find the flagrant disregard and abuse of the system represented in your post to be very, very rare.

 

I agree and when such abuses do exist, the solution is to better regulate the system, not do away with it.

 

But in an event, I will put up with the occasional fraud if it means that people like Joanne aren't tossed into the street when life throws them a curve ball.

[Joanne]

Dawn,

 

Your husband is not doing this man any favors. (Or, incidentally, his own business). If you conduct yourself that way with regard to your employment, you should be fired. Period. Allowing jis continued employment enables him and you, in effect, become a system to be abused.

 

From the addiction standpoint, blocking this man from the consequences of his behavior will not hasten his bottom( should he ever admit one).