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How do you decide whether to bother applying to Ivies? (includes URochester discussion)


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#51 Jilly

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:25 PM

Having the stats to be competitive is really a given in the Ivy admissions process. I would actually focus on ECs and crafting his story. Why him? What does he bring to the school? Why is he a fit for this school? Why should they not pass him by? Because he is really smart and does well in his classes is not the correct answer. You need a theme that flows naturally through his activities, achievements, LORs, and essays. 

 

:iagree:

 

If you have the stats for the Ivies, this is what you really need. A story, a hook, great ECs - this is what will make the application stand out. 



#52 creekland

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:44 PM

What has been astounding to me as an outside observer has been that despite the number of witnesses and the severity of the complaints, the department chair and the president of the university responded in no uncertain terms that "no university policy was violated." They basically from the beginning bet their careers and reputation on defending this guy. (And the president Seligman eventually lost that bet.)

DD was visiting campus when the initial EEOC complaint dropped https://threadreader...63977282383873# It was the most bizarre campus tour, and since we hadn't read Mother Jones before heading to campus we had no idea what was going on other than "why are they showing us all six floors of the library and not taking us to explore the campus???"

When similar complaints came up at other U's the people in charge either swore they never heard a word about the guy or at least said, "we found him in violation of university policy and made him watch three hours of videos on sexual harassment" or something. The UR administration dug in hard in defense of this guy.

The persistence of UR saying "no university policy was violated here" (https://www.insidehi...-little-closure) has made the complainants dig in equally hard -- http://www.campustim...women-backward/

These things are usually settled quietly, and maybe with Seligman out of the way it can still be settled, but if it goes to court there will be lasting damage to UR. The text of the lawsuit shows that they are threatening to make it extremely ugly and personal -- check out paragraph 3 https://www.scientif...nt-allegations/


What bothers me is the desire to ruin the whole campus, including professors, research, and students who had absolutely no part in any of it. It's akin to burning a city down over the actions of a couple residents.

I have absolutely no respect for anyone who takes part in that and can't help but hope karma comes back to them. So many have no real info on top of that. They are merely passing judgment on hearsay, but even if it were all true, it hardly means everyone in the same zip code deserves punishment. What happened in BCS just doesn't affect everyone.

One would think educated people would know that, but apparently not.

I definitely have recommended capable students continue to consider UR. I can't fathom doing otherwise. They might find themselves having an edge this year...or not. Time will tell.

And, of course, if one believes what other places have said to be true in their situations, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying... All that has proven is denying things or giving pat answers is the best way to handle these things when they come up. The mob insists upon it and won't consider anything else. Their torches are lit to ignite the whole town and all innocent people in it.
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#53 kokotg

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:44 PM

Having the stats to be competitive is really a given in the Ivy admissions process. I would actually focus on ECs and crafting his story. Why him? What does he bring to the school? Why is he a fit for this school? Why should they not pass him by? Because he is really smart and does well in his classes is not the correct answer. You need a theme that flows naturally through his activities, achievements, LORs, and essays. 

 

Besides get good grades and test scores, what else has he done? What is he passionate about? Why? How did that passion come about? How has he demonstrated that passion? What does he hope to accomplish by attending this school? Why are they a fit for each other? Grades and test scores check one box. How does he check the others? 

 

I fear getting him to sell himself will be the biggest obstacle. It definitely doesn't come naturally to him. He doesn't have any ECs that really leap out at you on the surface, but I think there's a lot he could say to tie everything together and make for an interesting, likable, impressive narrative if he were willing to do it. He's a good writer, but not the least bit confessional. At a certain point I guess I just need to hand him a book about doing college applications, offer to proofread essays, and back away...



#54 JanetC

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 02:21 PM

What bothers me is the desire to ruin the whole campus, including professors, research, and students who had absolutely no part in any of it. It's akin to burning a city down over the actions of a couple residents.


The problem is that one of those "couple of residents" was the president of the university saying, "this behavior was unprofessional but not actionable by university policy." The president does speak for the entire campus, and it rightly provokes outrage campus wide.

Yes, the "pat answers" sound pat and sometimes even hard to believe, but at least they don't say "this is fine."
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#55 fralala

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 03:47 PM

I fear getting him to sell himself will be the biggest obstacle. It definitely doesn't come naturally to him. He doesn't have any ECs that really leap out at you on the surface, but I think there's a lot he could say to tie everything together and make for an interesting, likable, impressive narrative if he were willing to do it. He's a good writer, but not the least bit confessional. At a certain point I guess I just need to hand him a book about doing college applications, offer to proofread essays, and back away...

 

He should not try to make his application a sales pitch or a confessional but rather something he will feel proud of, even if he's "rejected." Which is really the wrong word. Mismatched.

 

As someone who attended an Ivy, I will strongly try to steer my own children away from them. I once took part in a discussion with one of the university administrators about things that could be done to improve the undergraduate experience. When he heard my suggestions (inspired by my experiences attending summer classes at other, less prestigious colleges), he laughed and said, "But see, we don't have to do that. We're _____. People will want to come here anyway."

 

Now, I don't mean to say that's the attitude at every Ivy, but it kind of summed up my experience there. Do the schools your child is interested in guarantee actual contact with professors, or do students vie to compete for a limited number of spaces in seminars? How much teaching and grading is done by TAs? Is undergraduate teaching and interaction a priority? Do the students seem happy and intellectually curious? Do they have mentors on the faculty?

 

I think the main thing for him to know if he does decide to apply is that he probably won't get in, but it will be very hard to turn them down if he does. Very hard. But if he isn't trying to sell himself, that may make him stand out in a good way!


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#56 kokotg

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 05:40 PM

Perhaps a balance between trying too hard to sell himself and being completely self-deprecating would be good, though ;).

 

I have no idea at this point if he's even going to want to apply anywhere like Harvard--I see him more at a small LAC, really--but we'll see. It's funny; my parents were totally hands off about college stuff, and pretty much just said, "go to UGA; it's cheap and close." So I did and had a great experience. But I always wonder what my life would have been like if I'd felt like there were all these CHOICES out there. 


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#57 creekland

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 06:32 PM

The problem is that one of those "couple of residents" was the president of the university saying, "this behavior was unprofessional but not actionable by university policy." The president does speak for the entire campus, and it rightly provokes outrage campus wide.

Yes, the "pat answers" sound pat and sometimes even hard to believe, but at least they don't say "this is fine."

 

Regarding what happened, even my guy who was in the department and knew very well several of the key "players" isn't making a total judgment on whether the University policy was actionable or not.  The independent investigators said it wasn't.  Working in a school district myself (not college, but still similar), I know very well that what the public would like to see happen vs what can legally happen can be vastly different things.  I'm willing to let the court settle that rather than people who likely wouldn't even know any of the key players in all of this if they sat down next to them at a bus stop.  They are making judgments solely off what they see written and what they are looking at is likely to be one sided vs those who look at both sides, but who knows?  Time will tell.  I'm not making the call.  I don't know.

 

I fully understand staying away from BCS until they get new (and totally different) profs/leadership in because what the dude did even by his own admission was unethical and like many  who did similar things he'd have chosen differently now.  It's a different era now - still 100% wrong before, but wink, wink, so many did it that many appeared to have taken that as "no big deal." 

 

But what's totally wrong is punishing the Engineering dept, or Bio, or Chem, or English, or ______ over what a couple of guys did - even if one was the President of the U.  It in no way, shape, or fashion diminishes the work anywhere else or what future students can get from those departments.

 

What was done seems to have been so common across many fields that I sincerely wish that ALL with lit torches (towards the wrong folks) get Karma coming back to them the next time someone else is outed - someone they didn't even know - but they get punished due to mere location of the offense, because that's all this is.  It's the mob out declaring everyone guilty and deserving of punishment.  It's worse than a witch hunt.


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#58 regentrude

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 06:45 PM

Regarding what happened, even my guy who was in the department and knew very well several of the key "players" isn't making a total judgment on whether the University policy was actionable or not.  The independent investigators said it wasn't.  Working in a school district myself (not college, but still similar), I know very well that what the public would like to see happen vs what can legally happen can be vastly different things.  I'm willing to let the court settle that rather than people who likely wouldn't even know any of the key players in all of this if they sat down next to them at a bus stop.  They are making judgments solely off what they see written and what they are looking at is likely to be one sided vs those who look at both sides, but who knows?  Time will tell.  I'm not making the call.  I don't know.

 

I fully understand staying away from BCS until they get new (and totally different) profs/leadership in because what the dude did even by his own admission was unethical and like many  who did similar things he'd have chosen differently now.  It's a different era now - still 100% wrong before, but wink, wink, so many did it that many appeared to have taken that as "no big deal." 

 

But what's totally wrong is punishing the Engineering dept, or Bio, or Chem, or English, or ______ over what a couple of guys did - even if one was the President of the U.  It in no way, shape, or fashion diminishes the work anywhere else or what future students can get from those departments.

 

What was done seems to have been so common across many fields that I sincerely wish that ALL with lit torches (towards the wrong folks) get Karma coming back to them the next time someone else is outed - someone they didn't even know - but they get punished due to mere location of the offense, because that's all this is.  It's the mob out declaring everyone guilty and deserving of punishment.  It's worse than a witch hunt.

 

I do not see it as punishing a department when students are advised not to attend a university that apparently does not have policies in place that protect students against such behavior. At my college, I am required to take annual sexual harassment training, and many of his behaviors clearly fall into this category.

If it is indeed correct that Jaeger's behavior "did not violate university policies", I am scratching my head why they do not have policies in place. In what universe is a prof sending pictures of his genitalia to students OK as per school policy? A student attending an institution that does not seem to have policies against sexual harassment is vulnerable to such behavior from other professors since apparently the school cannot do anything about it, so I would advise my daughter not to attend such an institution. That has nothing to do with "punishing" any department or with "witch hunt" -  it is simply prudent if females are not protected there. It is regrettable for all the people who work at this place.


Edited by regentrude, 18 February 2018 - 06:46 PM.

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#59 creekland

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 06:52 PM

I do not see it as punishing a department when students are advised not to attend a university that apparently does not have policies in place that protect students against such behavior. At my college, I am required to take annual sexual harassment training, and many of his behaviors clearly fall into this category.

If it is indeed correct that Jaeger's behavior "did not violate university policies", I am scratching my head why they do not have policies in place. In what universe is a prof sending pictures of his genitalia to students OK as per school policy? A student attending an institution that does not seem to have policies against sexual harassment is vulnerable to such behavior from other professors since apparently the school cannot do anything about it, so I would advise my daughter not to attend such an institution. That has nothing to do with "punishing" any department or with "witch hunt" -  it is simply prudent if females are not protected there. It is regrettable for all the people who work at this place.

 

And you seriously think this is going to be allowed to continue there???  That just because nothing was written into school policy before when no one ever thought something like this might happen - and therefore, it possibly wasn't actually punishable - that the policy won't (or hasn't already) changed?

 

Perhaps someone at your U has done it and will be outed too.  It's possible ANYWHERE.  Are you willing to be punished for it?  You think it's fine? Prudent even?  Parents shouldn't send their daughters to be taught by you because some idiot in a totally different department acted like an idiot?

 

Chances are it's even happened at U Chicago with some professor somewhere...  There are idiots everywhere - even in high schools.

 

Policies all over are changing NOW, but that doesn't fix things in the past.



#60 regentrude

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 07:01 PM

And you seriously think this is going to be allowed to continue there???  That just because nothing was written into school policy before when no one ever thought something like this might happen - and therefore, it possibly wasn't actually punishable - that the policy won't (or hasn't already) changed?

 

Perhaps someone at your U has done it and will be outed too.  It's possible ANYWHERE.  Are you willing to be punished for it?  You think it's fine? Prudent even?  Parents shouldn't send their daughters to be taught by you because some idiot in a totally different department acted like an idiot?

 

Chances are it's even happened at U Chicago with some professor somewhere...  There are idiots everywhere - even in high schools.

 

Policies all over are changing NOW, but that doesn't fix things in the past.

 

Yes, idiots are everywhere. Other people should not be punished for their behavior.

However, I cannot comprehend that a college at this day and age does not have thought it necessary to formulate a policy that makes it absolutely clear this is unacceptable. My issue is not that this case happened; such a person could indeed be everywhere. My issue  is that apparently, according to the report, the behavior was acceptable under university policy and has been allowed to continue for years. That is idiotic.

 

ETA: yes, policies may change now. After public fallout forces them to. But the nonexistence of a policy signals to me that the university administration must have thought that sexual harassment is no big deal and does not warrant having policies in place to protect people. 


Edited by regentrude, 18 February 2018 - 07:06 PM.

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#61 JanetC

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 07:35 PM

My issue is that apparently, according to the report, the behavior was acceptable under university policy and has been allowed to continue for years. That is idiotic.

ETA: yes, policies may change now. After public fallout forces them to. But the nonexistence of a policy signals to me that the university administration must have thought that sexual harassment is no big deal and does not warrant having policies in place to protect people.

Exactly: even the university's own investigators used words like unprofessional, offensive, and inappropriate to describe this person. The president saying, "but it's okay because our policies set the bar low" is what is so unfathomable. He totally misread his duty as president to say "just because this was not against policy didn't make it morally right" as well as the current #metoo historical moment that helped produce the backlash. The EEOC lawsuit will decide if university policy permitted behavior that is actually illegal under federal law.
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#62 Corraleno

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 07:54 PM

Yes, idiots are everywhere. Other people should not be punished for their behavior.

However, I cannot comprehend that a college at this day and age does not have thought it necessary to formulate a policy that makes it absolutely clear this is unacceptable. My issue is not that this case happened; such a person could indeed be everywhere. My issue  is that apparently, according to the report, the behavior was acceptable under university policy and has been allowed to continue for years. That is idiotic.

 

ETA: yes, policies may change now. After public fallout forces them to. But the nonexistence of a policy signals to me that the university administration must have thought that sexual harassment is no big deal and does not warrant having policies in place to protect people. 

 

One of the scariest aspects of the story to me is that the school retaliated against the faculty members who were brave enough to support the victims, so they were not only willing to dismiss the many complaints by students but also throw their own faculty under the bus in defense of Jaeger. Sick.


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#63 creekland

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 07:55 PM

Exactly: even the university's own investigators used words like unprofessional, offensive, and inappropriate to describe this person. The president saying, "but it's okay because our policies set the bar low" is what is so unfathomable. He totally misread his duty as president to say "just because this was not against policy didn't make it morally right" as well as the current #metoo historical moment that helped produce the backlash. The EEOC lawsuit will decide if university policy permitted behavior that is actually illegal under federal law.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that what was done was fine and dandy (by the former Pres or the Prof).  I could be wrong, but I don't see that. 

 

My beef is solely with those who think it's fine to punish the masses over it.

 

Personally, I never read a single college policy when checking out colleges nor do I plan to start now.  If one needs anything written to feel junior (lad or lass) is "safe," they probably aren't ready for sleep-away college.  So many colleges HAVE written policies over far more potentially dangerous things like alcohol, illegal substances, and even hazing, but it takes the student themselves to be on guard and choose wisely - then report and keep reporting up the chain (outside the college if need be) if necessary.

 

I still plan to tell students I talk with to choose a college based upon what's offered there academically, then fit (including finances, etc), not about what idiot (or two) might have been there in the past.  Chances are that colleges with outed idiots are going to be SAFER in the future due to the experience and precedent than those who have idiots still in the closet with no one yet willing to speak out.



#64 regentrude

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 08:00 PM

One of the scariest aspects of the story to me is that the school retaliated against the faculty members who were brave enough to support the victims, so they were not only willing to dismiss the many complaints by students but also throw their own faculty under the bus in defense of Jaeger. Sick.

 

and the handling of the emails was absolutely unprofessional.

 

The problem is not this one professor. The problem seems to pervade the entire university administration.

 

ETA: The allegation that both the university president and the provost were having relationships with subordinates is disturbing.


Edited by regentrude, 18 February 2018 - 08:34 PM.

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#65 creekland

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 08:40 PM

I just got back from CC looking at the threads there.  At least not everyone has been scared away from UR as per acceptances that just started going out.  I expect applications will likely be down considering how many are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but at least some are much smarter than that!  For some kids who otherwise might not have gotten the opportunity, it will be a fantastic opportunity to study at a great research U.  Every single time we visit there I've been super impressed by other students and what they've been able to get involved with and the multiple research "finds."

 

It never has been a school for everyone.  I guess that part hasn't changed!  ;)



#66 JanetC

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 10:06 PM

I don't think anyone was arguing that the entire university should be disbanded. Even the academic boycott was about professors refusing to provide letters of recommendation for graduate student applicants, not high school teachers refusing to support undergrad applicants. The stories probably hurt more with locals (since local news covered it regularly) but it's not clear to me this was a big national story outside academic circles. That being said, once the story was on our radar, it was rather astounding to follow, and when my kid decided not to apply, I didn't try to change her mind.
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#67 creekland

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:20 AM

I don't think anyone was arguing that the entire university should be disbanded. Even the academic boycott was about professors refusing to provide letters of recommendation for graduate student applicants, not high school teachers refusing to support undergrad applicants. The stories probably hurt more with locals (since local news covered it regularly) but it's not clear to me this was a big national story outside academic circles. That being said, once the story was on our radar, it was rather astounding to follow, and when my kid decided not to apply, I didn't try to change her mind.

 

And not having decent grad students coming through the pipeline somehow helps the professors actually doing ground breaking research how?

 

And if that ground breaking research is exactly what the intelligent future grad student wants to be doing, how does it help them if a prof won't write a LOR?

 

This is hardly like a case of an idiot working at McDonald's, so suggesting folks (including workers) leave it to go to the one down the street.  These are professors who had absolutely nothing to do with the event whatsoever now being punished simply due to some sort of idiotic boycott.  

 

One honestly would expect educators - esp those who know what a top Research U is - years of one's life put into research that generally can help all of us when they get positive results - to know better.  I'd expect something like this to come from those who think college is worthless and evil.

 

But I guess is someone is that dumb, it's good for others to get the chance to be there instead - except, of course, that doesn't help the future grad student if their idiotic prof (who I REALLY hope karma comes to) won't write the LOR.

 

From what I hear (via my son), the story didn't affect much with the local population and the school.  Folks there seem to be able to separate the good from the evil.  Same with what I saw among students and parents talking on CC.  It's only on this thread that I've heard it brought up elsewhere - and somehow supported.

 

That last part seriously has me considering whether I actually belong on this board any longer or not.  It can be downright frustrating to hear that others who one thought had reason and could see/differentiate facts... well, I'd best not continue that sentence.  I'm actually still contemplating if it is my time to leave, esp since my homeschooling years ended in 2012 and I'm moving into another phase of my life (esp after my mom passes away).

 

Regardless, It's definitely showed me an example of the lack of tolerance as mentioned by the author of Educated and I'm NOT meaning tolerance of the prof who was an idiot - I refuse to use his name.  I'm meaning tolerance of those who were in the same zip code he's in!  It's worse than the Pres throwing other profs under the bus.  This is wanting to throw everyone under the bus, but oh, one feels "sorry" for them!  It's so sad if their lifelong work is affected, but do it anyway!  We didn't hear what we wanted to hear (true or not).  

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...siness-43038598

 

"Tara says there is less tolerance of different opinions within middle-class, liberal academic circles than there ever was among the strict fundamentalists of her childhood."



#68 JanetC

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 12:10 PM

All I can say is the professors who signed the boycott letter were aware of what it meant, probably more than we are, and still decided it would be an appropriate way to apply outside pressure for UR to change. Unless it continues for multiple years, I don't think your concern that UR's research will stop will actually happen.
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#69 luuknam

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 12:43 PM

I don't have a clue what happened at UR other than what's been mentioned on this thread, but for various reasons people tend to prefer to join organizations (schools, companies, etc) with good leadership - heck, it seems more important than whether the dorms are new, and yet people take that into account when picking a university too. If you run a university, it makes sense to compare your policies (e.g. pay a lawyer or w/e to do that) with those of other places on a regular basis to keep up with best practices. People sending pics like that is not something that's new - people have been doing that since it became technologically possible, which was quite a long time ago.



#70 creekland

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 12:46 PM

All I can say is the professors who signed the boycott letter were aware of what it meant, probably more than we are, and still decided it would be an appropriate way to apply outside pressure for UR to change. Unless it continues for multiple years, I don't think your concern that UR's research will stop will actually happen.

 

I'm not actually fearful it will stop at this point.  There seem to be more intelligent reasoners out there than dumb ones. As I mentioned earlier, this thread is the only place I've even seen it come up in discussion (excepting with my son and other "insiders").

 

It just angers me what they are willing/trying to do to innocent people who they should be able to relate to, but I remind myself that there's no reason to expect those who signed it actually do understand what they are doing.  Many were probably just joining the mob and not thinking.  Humans tend to do that way too often.  Even educated humans.  One only needs a brief glance at even recent history to realize it's not just the uneducated who hop on bandwagons.

 

Personally, I think those who are THERE and involved knowing all sides and facets understand far more than the average person reading about it or someone only seeing one side (myself included since I only hear about it from my son who knows well many of the "players").  That's the way life always works. 

 

But that's still a different issue than lighting torches to burn the village over a single incident that is likely playing out in one's own backyard too - just more quietly with pat answers or still in the closet.



#71 creekland

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 12:55 PM

People sending pics like that is not something that's new - people have been doing that since it became technologically possible, which was quite a long time ago.

 

Well, it was a bit more than that, but FWIW, these pics are still being sent when they shouldn't be.  My sister works for Fed Ex and told me all about some she got from a co-worker.  She was in tears.  She contacted her boss, showing him the texts and they did... nothing... other than tell him to knock it off.  This was not his first bullying incident to her.  It's only stopped/paused now because she tore something in her knee and is out of work due to surgery.

 

Does this mean we all now boycott Fed Ex?  Poor leadership and all?  

 

I have yet to hear from a single student or parent asking me about the leadership of a college at any level.  It doesn't even make the list of minor things they worry about when looking at colleges.  Gyms, dorms, food,  finances, academics/research, graduation stats?  Yes.  What the President is doing?  Nada.



#72 luuknam

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:26 PM

Well, it was a bit more than that, but FWIW, these pics are still being sent when they shouldn't be.  My sister works for Fed Ex and told me all about some she got from a co-worker.  She was in tears.  She contacted her boss, showing him the texts and they did... nothing... other than tell him to knock it off.  This was not his first bullying incident to her.  It's only stopped/paused now because she tore something in her knee and is out of work due to surgery.

 

Does this mean we all now boycott Fed Ex?  Poor leadership and all?  

 

I have yet to hear from a single student or parent asking me about the leadership of a college at any level.  It doesn't even make the list of minor things they worry about when looking at colleges.  Gyms, dorms, food,  finances, academics/research, graduation stats?  Yes.  What the President is doing?  Nada.

 

 

Hearing that would make me hesitant about applying for a job at FedEx, yes. And no, people usually don't care to look into the leadership at a college... but they'll definitely take it into consideration when there is blatant evidence of incompetent leadership, such as the above. Often, good leadership is basically when you don't notice leadership because they make sure things keep going smoothly, without incidents, because they have policies about stuff and take appropriate actions when policies are broken, etc (etc because I'm not saying it's *just* about policies... obviously there's more to it... my point is that leadership is most noticeable when it's bad and bad stuff happens as a result (and no, I'm not talking about pics being sent... I'm talking about the response to pics being sent)). 


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#73 regentrude

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:58 PM

Well, it was a bit more than that, but FWIW, these pics are still being sent when they shouldn't be.  My sister works for Fed Ex and told me all about some she got from a co-worker.  She was in tears.  She contacted her boss, showing him the texts and they did... nothing... other than tell him to knock it off.  This was not his first bullying incident to her.  It's only stopped/paused now because she tore something in her knee and is out of work due to surgery.

 

She needs to file a sexual harassment complaint with the company. If her boss is not willing to act, her boss' boss may. Go up the chain. This is completely unacceptable, and they should fear getting their ass sued off.

 

And yes, if it turned out that there was a pattern of ignoring such conduct by the higher leadership of the company, customers who put their money where their mouth is may choose not to ship with FedEx. I know people who will not set foot into certain stores because they don't agree with the company leadership's touted "values". This is no different.


Edited by regentrude, 19 February 2018 - 02:00 PM.

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#74 creekland

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:29 PM

Hearing that would make me hesitant about applying for a job at FedEx, yes. And no, people usually don't care to look into the leadership at a college... but they'll definitely take it into consideration when there is blatant evidence of incompetent leadership, such as the above. Often, good leadership is basically when you don't notice leadership because they make sure things keep going smoothly, without incidents, because they have policies about stuff and take appropriate actions when policies are broken, etc (etc because I'm not saying it's *just* about policies... obviously there's more to it... my point is that leadership is most noticeable when it's bad and bad stuff happens as a result (and no, I'm not talking about pics being sent... I'm talking about the response to pics being sent)). 

 

And see, he was a very respected and pretty darn loved President until this.  He did many positive things for the school and was quite active with it.  For those who supported him, it was sad seeing a mistake (that everyone agrees was a mistake) end his career since he had done so much for the school.  I'm sure many wish they could turn back time and see a different outcome.

 

He supposedly had a cancer diagnosis, and if so, I'm sure that also went into his decision to step down.

 

She needs to file a sexual harassment complaint with the company. If her boss is not willing to act, her boss' boss may. Go up the chain. This is completely unacceptable, and they should fear getting their ass sued off.

 

And yes, if it turned out that there was a pattern of ignoring such conduct by the higher leadership of the company, customers who put their money where their mouth is may choose not to ship with FedEx. I know people who will not set foot into certain stores because they don't agree with the company leadership's touted "values". This is no different.

 

I have told her this, but she needs her job, so won't do it.  So many things that "should" happen in life don't in reality and reality pays the bills.  Her resume and people skills (or lack thereof) honestly don't leave her many choices.  I suspect that's true of her co-worker as well.  It seems many who "need" a job end up there as far as I can figure it out.  They need employees - any employee - so overlook a ton.

 

Her boss leaves a lot to be desired.  He seriously needs to take some business classes at his local CC because he's really clueless with many things (like, say, taxes) and has been fined by the state already for some of it.

 

But who am I to say it's not the same with UPS (esp for the area)?  Just because I have inside info about Fed Ex doesn't mean it isn't similar at UPS.



#75 luuknam

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 04:06 PM

But who am I to say it's not the same with UPS (esp for the area)?  Just because I have inside info about Fed Ex doesn't mean it isn't similar at UPS.

 

 

True, but the opposite isn't true either - that just because you don't have inside knowledge of UPS, it must be the same. Some organizations (companies, schools, etc) do have much better management, corporate culture, leadership, etc than others. Now, I typically don't boycott unless things are pretty bad (e.g. we won't fly United, but that's about the only thing that comes to mind), but, I'm not saying that things like this won't have an impact. E.g. if my kid was already attending UR, then this would not make them transfer, I don't think, and if they were already accepted and it was several thousand cheaper than the next cheapest option, then odds are that they'd attend UR. But, it would be a check in the negatives column, so if it was between UR and a similar school without a big financial difference, this could easily make the other school come out ahead. Or, in deciding where to apply, UR is barely on the list of places to automatically consider because it's barely within commuting distance, but, this combined with the 1.5 hour each way commute (worse in winter), could be just that little difference to shove it off the automatic consideration list. Now, that's if the kids were applying now, which they aren't... by the time they're old enough, I'll a) probably have forgotten all about this, and b) probably will consider it to be so long ago it doesn't matter. Either way, my point is that it has an impact, even if it's not enough for an outright boycott. 

 

ETA: again, everything I know about the UR thing is from this thread - if my kids were actually applying to places sometime soon, I'd read up more on it which might affect my exact stance... but odds are the above would still be true. 


Edited by luuknam, 19 February 2018 - 04:27 PM.

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#76 Selkie

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 04:19 PM

Interesting conversation. My dh went to grad school at UR. He's so disgusted by this situation that there's no way he'd encourage our three teens to apply there.



#77 Corraleno

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 04:36 PM

One honestly would expect educators - esp those who know what a top Research U is - years of one's life put into research that generally can help all of us when they get positive results - to know better.  I'd expect something like this to come from those who think college is worthless and evil.
 
But I guess is someone is that dumb, it's good for others to get the chance to be there instead - except, of course, that doesn't help the future grad student if their idiotic prof (who I REALLY hope karma comes to) won't write the LOR.

 
Are you seriously suggesting that the 450+ professors of Psychology, Cognitive Science, and related disciplines, from universities like HYP, Carnegie Mellon, JHU, Michigan, etc., who signed the letter saying they would not recommend their students attend grad school in those disciplines at Rochester until significant changes are made, are "dumb," "idiotic," and possibly "don't know what a top research U is"? And you hope they are somehow punished (by karma) for signing the letter??? Frankly the impulse to somehow punish or retaliate against the protestors sounds eerily similar to the approach of the administration at Rochester.
 

 

From what I hear (via my son), the story didn't affect much with the local population and the school.  Folks there seem to be able to separate the good from the evil.  Same with what I saw among students and parents talking on CC.  It's only on this thread that I've heard it brought up elsewhere - and somehow supported.
 
That last part seriously has me considering whether I actually belong on this board any longer or not.  It can be downright frustrating to hear that others who one thought had reason and could see/differentiate facts... well, I'd best not continue that sentence.  I'm actually still contemplating if it is my time to leave, esp since my homeschooling years ended in 2012 and I'm moving into another phase of my life (esp after my mom passes away).
 
Regardless, It's definitely showed me an example of the lack of tolerance as mentioned by the author of Educated and I'm NOT meaning tolerance of the prof who was an idiot - I refuse to use his name.  I'm meaning tolerance of those who were in the same zip code he's in!  It's worse than the Pres throwing other profs under the bus.  This is wanting to throw everyone under the bus, but oh, one feels "sorry" for them!  It's so sad if their lifelong work is affected, but do it anyway!  We didn't hear what we wanted to hear (true or not).

 
Referring to people who disagree with you as "idiotic," "dumb," intolerant, incapable of reason, incapable of separating good from evil or differentiating between fact and fiction, and implying that you don't know if you can even stand to be on a message board with people who are so incapable of reason, is pretty insulting.

Four professors in the department, including the founder (Richard Aslin), left or resigned in protest of the way the university handled this. Do you think they are dumb idiots who have no idea what's "true or not" regarding what happened in their own department?

I have no idea why you are taking this discussion so personally that you feel the need to insult everyone who disagree with you. If this sort of scandal had happened at a school I attended, I would have been on the front lines protesting, not defending the school. If it happened at a school one of my kids attended, I would hope they would do the same, and I sure as heck wouldn't be wishing for vengeance on those who are demanding change.


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#78 creekland

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:17 PM

Interesting conversation. My dh went to grad school at UR. He's so disgusted by this situation that there's no way he'd encourage our three teens to apply there.

 

And my guy and his peers who went there, recently graduated - IN the dept in question (as in, last year or within a couple of years, studying under this professor and others who left or didn't) are still glad they went and still are very pro UR.  They definitely dislike what happened (putting it mildly - as in, disliked what the prof did - pretty angry at him), but it hasn't changed their view of the school.  They do not wish they had attended elsewhere and still are my "go to" people to send prospectives to when they have questions.

 

 
Are you seriously suggesting that the 450+ professors of Psychology, Cognitive Science, and related disciplines, from universities like HYP, Carnegie Mellon, JHU, Michigan, etc., who signed the letter saying they would not recommend their students attend grad school in those disciplines at Rochester until significant changes are made, are "dumb," "idiotic," and possibly "don't know what a top research U is"? And you hope they are somehow punished (by karma) for signing the letter??? Frankly the impulse to somehow punish or retaliate against the protestors sounds eerily similar to the approach of the administration at Rochester.
 

 

 
Referring to people who disagree with you as "idiotic," "dumb," intolerant, incapable of reason, incapable of separating good from evil or differentiating between fact and fiction, and implying that you don't know if you can even stand to be on a message board with people who are so incapable of reason, is pretty insulting.

Four professors in the department, including the founder (Richard Aslin), left or resigned in protest of the way the university handled this. Do you think they are dumb idiots who have no idea what's "true or not" regarding what happened in their own department?

I have no idea why you are taking this discussion so personally that you feel the need to insult everyone who disagree with you. If this sort of scandal had happened at a school I attended, I would have been on the front lines protesting, not defending the school. If it happened at a school one of my kids attended, I would hope they would do the same, and I sure as heck wouldn't be wishing for vengeance on those who are demanding change.

 

Well, considering you seem very incapable of realizing exactly what has me peeved (according to what you wrote summarizing) even though I've spelled it out as clearly as possible, I guess I don't have an answer for you that is printable on this board.

 

I'll just add this thread to my ignore list.  It's not worth my time and IS making me think less of too many of you.  Yes, I hope you ARE on the receiving end of being 100% innocent and others trying to ruin you/your lab/research over something you had absolutely no control over or even knowledge of.  Maybe then you'll "get it."  Words don't seem effective.

 

It's not like these folks can up and move just because they dislike what happened there.  (One did, but even he wasn't sure until late spring that it would be possible.  If it hadn't, he'd have still been there.  Jobs aren't exactly plentiful and labs are difficult to relocate sometimes.)



#79 creekland

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:47 PM

Ps Even as a young kid I sided with the wee lad in The Emperor's New Clothes.

Sometimes someone needs to point out the obvious instead of jumping on the bandwagon rather than joining in because of perceived status of others.

#80 Corraleno

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 07:09 PM

BCS professor Bradford Mann:
"Seven faculty have either left or are in the process of leaving...It was not our plan to leave Rochester. We love this city...Academic work is the kind of work you pour your heart into...To leave, and come to the decision that you have to leave, is for us, is an incredibly painful decision that we had to come to."

BCS Professor Steven Piantadosi:
"The backing of this allegedly independent investigation is fundamentally incoherent if not fraudulent. Any researcher who tries to write a definitive paper without consulting the primary sources would be laughed out of the academy."

Former BCS department chair Elissa Newport:
"I built BCS from a brand-new department to a department that when I left, was ranked fourth in its field nationally. I’m sorry to say I think the department is dead. Half the faculty are leaving. It will not be possible to rebuild the department that we built.”

IMO it would be incredibly irresponsible for professors to encourage potential grad students to apply to a department that is currently experiencing such chaos and disarray, with half the faculty leaving and a major lawsuit pending, not to mention the fact that Florian Jaeger is still a member of the department and apparently still has access to campus and students, despite being "on paid leave."
 
I feel badly for the half of the department who are trying to stick it out, but (1) no one's research/lab/career is going to be "ruined" by having fewer grad students apply in the next couple of years, and (2) any damage that does occur is the direct result of the actions of Florian Jaeger and the administrators who backed him and retaliated against his accusers. Trying to blame professors at other institutions, who refuse to send potential grad students into such a dysfunctional environment, is absurd, and hoping that bad things happen to them as result is just vindictive.
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#81 Corraleno

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 07:56 PM

And you seriously think this is going to be allowed to continue there???  That just because nothing was written into school policy before when no one ever thought something like this might happen - and therefore, it possibly wasn't actually punishable - that the policy won't (or hasn't already) changed?


Florian Jaeger was promoted to full professor DURING the investigation, after all these allegations were public, and before the investigation (which never even interviewed the actual victims or their supporters) had concluded. The president of the university compared the accusations to the false rape story published by Rolling Stone, implying that the accusers, and their faculty supporters, were liars. The department chair accessed the private emails of other professors, without their knowledge or permission, and publicly reported private conversations as part of his effort to defend Jaeger.  The faculty who are appalled by the behavior of Jaeger and the university are leaving, and he and his defenders are staying.

 

UR has done absolutely NOTHING to make sure this will not happen again.


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#82 JanetC

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 08:30 PM

One of the things protests sometimes do by design is "afflict the comfortable." You just want to buy some chocolate for your
Valentine. I'm going to stand outside the candy shop with a sign reminding you that this shop buys chocolate from a supplier notorious for using child laborers. To use an example with direct economic consequences to "innocents", lunch counter sit-ins were designed to get business owners who maybe didn't want to be involved in politics and quietly made a decent living serving their all-white customers to have a stake in helping to abolish Jim Crow.

University researchers are sometimes myopic -- some (and I'm stereotyping/generalizing here) might just want to be in their labs and lecture halls and do their work and not get involved in campus politics. This could be a message to get out of the lab and show up at the faculty senate and do the work of making UR a better place.

The people who signed the letter were professors at other universities. They understand research and university life. To say that they somehow didn't know the possible impacts to their own labs (for being publicly "political") and to the UR (possibly impacting recruitment) is just not true.

The idea that people are saying "burn the village down" seems like an exaggeration to me. But yes, they are sending a message not just to the apparently guilty but to the entire UR academic community, that they need to clean the place up.

The lunch counter sit-ins were also controversial in their day. You don't have to agree with the boycott letter. But to me this is a legitimate form of protest.
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#83 kiana

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:53 AM

I sure wouldn't apply there for grad school and would recommend against it for students as well. I would expect a lot of professors to be packing up and leaving in the next couple of years and I would hate to have someone I was relying on to work with me vanish. If I were already there and working with an advisor, I would be doing my best to get them to tell me (in confidentiality) whether they were applying elsewhere so we could discuss backup plans. Being in a chaotic department is not good for the career and my responsibility is to advise my students to go somewhere that will be good for them, not to rescue someone else's program. 

 

I would not be at all surprised if faculty applications elsewhere are looked on with sympathy -- not enough to get them an interview if unqualified, but enough to rank them highly among equally qualified applicants. It also does a great job on the "why is this person applying here" which sometimes causes a qualified person to not receive an interview (there are vastly more qualified people than interview slots) because it is assumed that they aren't serious about applying and are only sending out applications for negotiating power at their current institution. 

 

I would also be very surprised if any stigma were attached to the students/former students there or most of the professors themselves. Dysfunction at the admin level is something everyone understands, and it very much appears that that is where most of the dysfunction was. 


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#84 *LC

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 10:46 AM

"Everyone" I know is successful, and no one went to an Ivy league school, so they were never on our radar.

During her senior year, my oldest was given grief, because her college of choice wasn't as selective as one her friends were going to attend. So, she wanted to apply somewhere even more selective and chose Columbia. She did not have any interesting in visiting let alone attending, it was all to show her friends. So, I would not pay the application fee, but I said she was welcome to apply if she wanted. She never did, even though her scores/grades were in the top 25 percent. (Because of this board, I know that doesn't mean much in terms of chances for acceptance there.)

In the 5 years since then, my younger kids have had 3 aquaintances/family members of friends who have started at Ivy League schools. I would even recognize one, so I now know someone who went to an Ivy league school.

#85 Heigh Ho

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 11:10 AM

You have to look at pocketbook and fit.  For us, there were some Ivys of interest, but we don't fit the demographic and really my dc wasn't interested in undergrad with students who are aiming for Wall Street or those who are doing a lot of gap filling...too much experience with that crowd at the high school.  A tech school was a much better fit. 



#86 Frances

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 11:27 AM

Between family members and close friends, my son knew people who had attended five of the Ivies. None recommended it for undergrad except the one who went to Brown. With his stats and ECs, he likely had a shot, but really wasn’t interested after hearing similar things from several people. However, I do think he still regrets not applying to Stanford.

I think looking at fit is the most important thing. My son pretty radically changed his mind about what he wanted between the time we started seriously looking at schools his junior year and when he had to make a decision late in his senior year.
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#87 Hoggirl

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 01:23 PM

OP, if your Ds is in range stats-wise and has an interest in applying to an Ivy or other elite school, by all means he should go for it. My Ds only applied to one Ivy (Princeton) and was rejected. He chose it because of its strength in an area which he, at the time, thought he wanted to study.

However, Stanford was always the "dream school," and ds was fortunate enough to gain admission there. He has been extremely happy and has a good launch career lined up (management consulting - not quite as derided as Wall Street, but close - ha ha!) for post graduation this year. I think it can be hard to keep kids from having a dream school. As long as they go in with the understanding of how difficult it is to gain admission and that financial circumstances have to be workable, I say go for it. But, go for it with purpose. Not just willy-nilly to see if you can get in or for bragging rights or to prove that you can or to please a grandparent or shut up a peer or whatever. Stanford appealed to ds for a variety of reasons - the opportunities, the school spirit, the location/weather, and the vibe. Yes, school spirit. We like football! I know some feel that is a silly factor to consider, but it wasn't for Ds. Look at what matters to your Ds and help him find the best fit he can that is potentially affordable. If that includes an elite school, great. If it doesn't, great.

To me, there are several perks that go along with attending an elite school. One primary one is the size of the endowment per student. Tons of money just draws all sorts of events, speakers, and opportunities to a school with a large endowment.
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#88 Heigh Ho

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 01:42 PM

For clarification, I am not deriding Wall Street as a goal..that's some people's cuppa, Ivy is a known ladder to onboard.  Just not our cuppa.


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#89 GoodGrief

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 06:38 PM

You have to look at pocketbook and fit.  For us, there were some Ivys of interest, but we don't fit the demographic and really my dc wasn't interested in undergrad with students who are aiming for Wall Street or those who are doing a lot of gap filling...too much experience with that crowd at the high school.  A tech school was a much better fit. 

 

I suppose it may depend on area of study. There seems to be a wide variety of personalities and backgrounds at my daughter's school. My daughter is definitely not a Wall Street type, and she's not hanging out with Wall Street types. She's the one wearing her free t-shirts and ill-fitting jeans, doing science-y nerdy things, running, and working on humanitarian projects.

 

I was joking with her about the social life there, and suggesting various activities she could initiate. She was not impressed with my thoughts, saying, "Mom, can you imagine how awkward electrical engineering speed dating would be?" :laugh: Social climbing in her crowd is perhaps plotting to be the most popular lab partner, or carving a few seconds off a race time.



#90 daijobu

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:02 PM

Between family members and close friends, my son knew people who had attended five of the Ivies. None recommended it for undergrad except the one who went to Brown.

 

 

I'm curious to know why they don't recommend Ivies for undergrad?  



#91 Frances

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:33 PM

I'm curious to know why they don't recommend Ivies for undergrad?


The primary reason most gave was that they thought for someone with his interest and goals an elite or very good LAC would be better for undergrad and then perhaps an Ivy or similar for grad school. Those that had gone that route highly recommended it. Those that hadn’t wished they had. I should note that this sample is in no way representative and leans heavily STEM.
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#92 FriedClams

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:52 PM

.

Edited by FriedClams, 20 February 2018 - 07:52 PM.


#93 MarkT

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 04:46 AM

The problem is that one of those "couple of residents" was the president of the university saying, "this behavior was unprofessional but not actionable by university policy." The president does speak for the entire campus, and it rightly provokes outrage campus wide.

Yes, the "pat answers" sound pat and sometimes even hard to believe, but at least they don't say "this is fine."

U of Rochester thread

That's why colleges need a strong "Board of Directors" (not sure of what they are called in academia) that can do a public reprimand of that behavior and get things refocused,

==============================================================

Our local CC went through a bunch of grief and accreditation issues ( 2 years of probation) due to the board's mishandling of sexual harassment complaints against the former Chancellor.  IMHO it had nothing to do with the CC academics and should not have brought in the accreditor,   



#94 Corraleno

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 01:05 PM

U of Rochester thread
That's why colleges need a strong "Board of Directors" (not sure of what they are called in academia) that can do a public reprimand of that behavior and get things refocused,


He was publicly and repeatedly criticized by the Faculty Senate. e.g.:

 

"(Seligman) has not implemented forceful revisions in university policies or practices that could reassure victims of harassment and sexual misconduct that they are safe. He has not taken decisive steps to protect complainants against the possibility of retaliation. He has not responded to the university community's crisis in confidence with a strong, renewed commitment to shared governance or with increased transparency in decision making. This lack of action must end with the release of the report."


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#95 LisaK in VA is in IT

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 01:18 PM

For my daughter, she'll only apply to an Ivy if she's being recruited to swim there, as this will be the only way she gets in (academics are competitive enough, but swimming is what sets her apart for most schools).  My oldest son didn't apply, and my younger son probably won't apply to one either.


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#96 RootAnn

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 04:54 PM

 She was not impressed with my thoughts, saying, "Mom, can you imagine how awkward electrical engineering speed dating would be?" :laugh: Social climbing in her crowd is perhaps plotting to be the most popular lab partner, or carving a few seconds off a race time.

Having known several electrical engineers & having married one of them, I'd say it would be really interesting and only awkward for the people who weren't intelligent enough to keep up with the fascinating and wide-ranging discussions these type of people have.  :thumbup1:  I know your daughter was saying this tongue-in-cheek, but more recent engineers are not as socially awkward as they perhaps used to be considered. They might not like people in general or crowds and have "low tolerance for stupid," but they are, in general, both well-read and considerate individuals.


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#97 Kassia

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 05:53 PM

One of my sons is an electrical engineer and he is one of the least nerdy people I know.  He has tons of friends and makes new friends wherever he goes.  He has so many interests - he loves traveling and he swims, cycles, runs, rock climbs, plays volleyball and basketball, lifts weights, just bought a piano and is teaching himself to play.  He cooks, reads, and he's very kind and thoughtful.  He's an amazing friend, son, and brother.  His electrical engineer friends aren't nerdy either.  

 

DH started as an electrical engineer and switched to computer.  Definitely not a nerd either.  :)  

 

 


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#98 GoodGrief

GoodGrief

    Hive Mind Larvae

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 08:00 PM

Having known several electrical engineers & having married one of them, I'd say it would be really interesting and only awkward for the people who weren't intelligent enough to keep up with the fascinating and wide-ranging discussions these type of people have.  :thumbup1:  I know your daughter was saying this tongue-in-cheek, but more recent engineers are not as socially awkward as they perhaps used to be considered. They might not like people in general or crowds and have "low tolerance for stupid," but they are, in general, both well-read and considerate individuals.

 

She was being self deprecating, for sure (and trying to get her mom off her back ;-) ) No offense intended to the electrical engineers of the world :-) Just a glimpse into a what  some non-Wall Street types are doing in her school.


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