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Flabbergasted by friends' lack of awareness of college costs - UPDATE in post #440


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#51 creekland

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:38 AM

Even if you get the largest package at a school like Furman it still might not be your best option financially unless you have a high enough income that you get no need based aid anywhere.  DD was only one of 8 students to be offered their top award (full tuition) but since their room, board, fees, etc are so expensive, it was still one of her most expensive choices over her need met schools.  I am sure this wouldn't be true for everyone and the bottom line at Furman with the top scholarship would have been coveted by some, particularly those who want their kids at private school, but for us we still hit that need based aid level at some schools (and we aren't exactly poor either) and every school offered her merit aid as well.  I think our bottom line at Furman with the full scholarship was still $17,000/year.  Our packages for need met schools were all around $10,000-$15,000.

 

Furman accepted my middle son.  No surprise considering his stats were so high.  Their package came in 33K more (per year) than three of his other acceptances and more than his fourth, but I forgot how much that one offered.  We took it as their being aware that he should be accepted, but he wasn't really wanted and it was the first school eliminated from his acceptances.  Later that spring, someone linked me to an alumni newsletter where it said they were changing their financial aid away from need based aid to try to get/maintain a different student body.  That sure matched what happened for us.  I no longer recommend the school to anyone in our district.  The vast majority of kids in our area aren't among those they are looking for.  Even those who could afford it likely wouldn't be a good fit as we definitely don't have a country club demeanor even in the local country club. 


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#52 teachermom2834

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:55 AM

There are deals out there to be had. Both mine that are at this age are ending up with decent merit and small bits of need based aid that are ending up about equivalent to full tuition.

But...and it is a big BUT...they have had to take these deals where they could get them. Not some dream school but schools that wanted them for whatever particular reason. And the second big BUT... room and board is still very expensive. So even the "full tuition" leaves a tab that many simply cannot pay or does not make sense.

I do tell people mine got good aid because they ask why they chose the schools they did or how we afford to send them. BUT I always clarify that it was a unique deal or the only choice they had at that price point AND that the remaining tab is still a significant amount. Yet I can see people only hear the "mine got good aid" and ignore the two big "buts".

Ah, what are you going to do? College dreaming is fun and exciting. Waking up is hard.
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#53 MarkT

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:58 AM

I am always that mom who goes on the official tour and asks the student guide a ton of questions.  What is your major?  Where else did you apply?  Why did you choose this school over the others?  What do you do for fun?  Party scene?  Do people live on campus after freshman year?  Do you use the library much?  What other resources/labs on campus do you use?  How are the class sizes?  What's your favorite class so far and why?  Favorite professor?  How's the food?

 

I also like to go to the official info session, even if I have already read the basics on the web site.  I like to see how the school presents itself.  (Football+Party Culture school strongly emphasized the Football Culture part in their presentation.  Very strongly.  Um, no thanks.  Not a good fit for us.)

 

 

You can get a lot of that info from College Niche without visiting first.

It is very good for that kind of "stuff".



#54 Hoggirl

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:58 AM

Oh you guys have to listen to this episode of revisionist History if you're interested in "perks" as they relate to choosing a university to attend (when you have those options).

It's SO good.

http://revisionisthi...s/05-food-fight


Thanks for sharing that. It was an interesting perspective.
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#55 Hoggirl

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 11:27 AM

While true, it definitely doesn't take hive-level skills.
I did all my "college tours" via catalog before websites were a thing. A lot bulkier and more time consuming. Still doable for a teenager. I can't imagine how a parent would be unable to figure it out. :huh:

My speculation is that there is a lack of communication coupled with too many assumptions going in many different directions. It is hard for me to imagine a school counselor (even a good one) delving too far into financial issues. I think a school counselor might *assume* parents and kids had already had these discussions and feel it isn't under their purview (aka any of their business) except for a cursory explanation of how aid and loans work. I think parents make false assumptions about costs. I think school counselors assume students are communicating with their parents what counselors are telling them. I think students assume mom and dad will pay for whatever. I think parents fail to communicate a budget to their children.

Let's face it - while the world is certainly a LOT more open about discussing MANY more topics that were historically taboo, personal finances are still considered, well, pretty *personal.*

I had a friend (no kids) who lives in SoCal accompany another friend from Texas and her daughter on a Pomona visit. The daughter got in the car at the end of the day and, as they were discussing the visit, asked her mother, "How much money do we make?" Aside from the humor of the "we" aspect of this question, at least the daughter had understood that answer might make a difference in whether or not she could attend. Friend with no kids was aghast, "You can't ask that question! That's none of your business!" Well, yeah, I get that. I mean, I certainly never knew how much money my dad made, and I certainly wouldn't have asked that question. But there is a way to for a parent to communicate a budget without handing over an income statement and balance sheet.

Too many assumptions, too little communication.
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#56 MarkT

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 12:24 PM

. But there is a way to for a parent to communicate a budget without handing over an income statement and balance sheet.

 

It was very simple - here is the maximum dollar amount that Dad is willing to fork over each year for four years college. DS eventually understood what that meant in choosing a college.



#57 creekland

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 12:48 PM

My speculation is that there is a lack of communication coupled with too many assumptions going in many different directions. It is hard for me to imagine a school counselor (even a good one) delving too far into financial issues. I think a school counselor might *assume* parents and kids had already had these discussions and feel it isn't under their purview (aka any of their business) except for a cursory explanation of how aid and loans work. I think parents make false assumptions about costs. I think school counselors assume students are communicating with their parents what counselors are telling them. I think students assume mom and dad will pay for whatever. I think parents fail to communicate a budget to their children.

Let's face it - while the world is certainly a LOT more open about discussing MANY more topics that were historically taboo, personal finances are still considered, well, pretty *personal.*

I had a friend (no kids) who lives in SoCal accompany another friend from Texas and her daughter on a Pomona visit. The daughter got in the car at the end of the day and, as they were discussing the visit, asked her mother, "How much money do we make?" Aside from the humor of the "we" aspect of this question, at least the daughter had understood that answer might make a difference in whether or not she could attend. Friend with no kids was aghast, "You can't ask that question! That's none of your business!" Well, yeah, I get that. I mean, I certainly never knew how much money my dad made, and I certainly wouldn't have asked that question. But there is a way to for a parent to communicate a budget without handing over an income statement and balance sheet.

Too many assumptions, too little communication.

 

This is why I tell kids to go home, get with their parents (or guardians or similar) and plug in their own numbers on an EFC calculator, then just get back to me with whether that is affordable or not.  Some share actual numbers.  Some don't.  That doesn't really matter.  I just need to know if it's affordable or not in their eyes (or maybe within a couple of thousand).

 

When they don't know they need to figure out their EFC, then there's a problem unless full pay, but I can only think of two who have fit that situation that I've talked with.  Both of those also chose colleges where they weren't full pay (due to merit aid for one and a parent working there for another).  There may have been others, of course, just not that I remember or who talked with me.


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#58 Heigh Ho

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 01:08 PM

What are the websites that show typical charge v family income??? I don't think I know this, but I'd like to!

We talked to a financial planner before we even had ds. We picked a random, private, elite-ish school - Duke. Financial planner predicted around $150,000. Actual cost at the time Ds was applying was around $240,000 or so (Ds didn't apply there). So he predicted about 60% of what the total cost actually was when the time came.

 

niche.com

nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/

 

I think there was another I stumbled over first, but can't recall. 

 

College navigator now has Duke listed as net price of 49k annually for those making over $110k.   For 75-110 it is $22k. That's what got us -- when the kids were infants, our salaries were much lower and the projection must have been for that. Then our pensions were cut and we were given higher salaries to manage 401k and HSA...but not high enough that we could also pay what people with that salary and options/pensions/subsidized retiree medical care can afford.  What people around me in the 110-150k income range do is retire on pension w/retiree medical before first fafsa, then go back to work after last fafsa, so they get the half price basically. Next choice is ROTC.


Edited by Heigh Ho, 20 January 2018 - 02:20 PM.

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#59 Tsuga

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 01:09 PM

There are deals out there to be had. Both mine that are at this age are ending up with decent merit and small bits of need based aid that are ending up about equivalent to full tuition.

I think if you have need AND talent you can get it covered.

But many middle and upper middle class families have zero need. They aren't saving for reasons that Hoggirl has pointed out are unfathomable. That's the clincher.

A big issue is COL differences on the coasts. We spent a year raising our incomes and changing our career paths because if we had not we would be in the bottom half of earners not just in our ZIP but the metro area. We made six figures together then and make a fair six figures now. We save like crazy, no new cars.

So you can make a lot and feel like you will have "need" when really they expect you to just frankly move two counties away to save. Fair enough.

Then you get the other side with families who are middle class in their milieu die to responsible choices, a low COL area, and a small circle of friends with one income families. They get far more need aid than a "middle class" family would expect but on paper, financially, they are quite poor.

If the well-off family in this scenario isn't saving they are going to be in for a shock. Moreover, aid sometimes is given based on zip code. So if your kid is in a top zip code with top schools, they better do well. A child with fewer activities and lower SAT scores in a very rural area or poor urban area (take the average household income in your zip, that is how they judge advantage) is pegged as "overcome opportunities" and gets more per point than a child with more opportunities.

The point is it pays to be realistic about what is expected of you and to maximize what you have. Sounds like you guys did that. If you qualified for need you aren't rich.

But if you don't qualify for need that can leave a gap for those who haven't saved.

Edited by Tsuga, 20 January 2018 - 01:10 PM.

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#60 Tsuga

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 01:21 PM

It was very simple - here is the maximum dollar amount that Dad is willing to fork over each year for four years college. DS eventually understood what that meant in choosing a college.


You can even make it grade dependent. All As, I pay all tuition. I pay 80% for a B, and so on.

They can fund housing.

I can't tell you how many parents demanded to see report cards to see "what they we're paying for". Demand access to the online transcript portal or don't pay.

My kids both asked me whether some.collefes are easier than others... lol. I said yes but you'd never know it because grade inflation happens so deal with it.

#61 Laura Corin

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 01:24 PM

You can even make it grade dependent. All As, I pay all tuition. I pay 80% for a B, and so on.

They can fund housing.

I can't tell you how many parents demanded to see report cards to see "what they we're paying for". Demand access to the online transcript portal or don't pay.

My kids both asked me whether some.collefes are easier than others... lol. I said yes but you'd never know it because grade inflation happens so deal with it.

 

Just a caveat.  Many people who suffer from mental illness start to develop it during late teenage and early twenties.  One would have to keep a careful eye to ensure that this kind of payment scale was causing productive rather than destructive stress.


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#62 DawnM

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 02:20 PM

N/M 

 


Edited by DawnM, 20 January 2018 - 02:22 PM.


#63 Tsuga

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 02:25 PM

Just a caveat. Many people who suffer from mental illness start to develop it during late teenage and early twenties. One would have to keep a careful eye to ensure that this kind of payment scale was causing productive rather than destructive stress.


What is the alternative, paying unlimited tuition for ant result?

They don't have to stress. They can pay themselves AND worry about grades if they find the pay-per-grade too stressful.

I won't blame myself if I pay for four years of D's at 65% tuition and that is too stressful for my child. If that isn't enough I probably can't help her anyway. More money and fewer boundaries are unlikely to solve that.

#64 Laura Corin

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 02:38 PM

What is the alternative, paying unlimited tuition for ant result?

They don't have to stress. They can pay themselves AND worry about grades if they find the pay-per-grade too stressful.

I won't blame myself if I pay for four years of D's at 65% tuition and that is too stressful for my child. If that isn't enough I probably can't help her anyway. More money and fewer boundaries are unlikely to solve that.

 

It's up to you if you want to pay for grades.  

 

I was just putting in a thought about seeing the student as an individual: some individual students begin to suffer from mental illness at that age and may find that system too much to cope with.  Personally, I'd rather my child graduated.


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#65 Tsuga

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 02:58 PM

It's up to you if you want to pay for grades.  

 

I was just putting in a thought about seeing the student as an individual: some individual students begin to suffer from mental illness at that age and may find that system too much to cope with.  Personally, I'd rather my child graduated.

 

I agree that we should support our kids.

 

But if my child needs mental health support then I will pay for mental health support--not a diploma without the grades and work experience to support it.

 

[omitted repeated text]

 

If my child cannot deal with performance-based incentives, then we will look into counseling and health care to support them in a low-stress environment while they prepare for independence.

 

Not tuition at a four-year university. I'm sensitive to the individual, but mental health issues are not "how do I pay for college" issues. They are "how do I pay for health care" issues.

 

I think college is an investment. The person is going into a highly competitive, 100% performance-oriented workforce. Nobody else is going to pay them based on hope in their potential. 

 

Edit... I think this is a social class issue as well. If you are a salaried worker, meaning, you are not independently wealthy, then making a $100k+ investment in an individual that is not able to work in a performance based environment may not be the best idea.

 

However, there are many people who are incredibly wealthy. In those cases, getting a child through school regardless of grades or performance is a worthwhile endeavor. That's because they probably have connections and means to set their kid up in an equally supportive work environment, even if that means funding the kid's art career for an indefinite period and I can see why anyone with the means to do so, would do that!

 

So I don't mean to imply it's not worth it for everyone. But for the working through middle classes, college is first and foremost an economic investment in their children. It's not a social class guarantor because a college degree isn't enough to maintain that social class status. In that case, the #1 thing you want to do is set them up for independence, and a college career in which they are funded irrespective of performance is not how you would do that.

 

And maybe I sounded harsher than I meant to be, and for that I apologize.


Edited by Tsuga, 20 January 2018 - 06:06 PM.

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#66 Attolia

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 03:18 PM

Furman accepted my middle son.  No surprise considering his stats were so high.  Their package came in 33K more (per year) than three of his other acceptances and more than his fourth, but I forgot how much that one offered.  We took it as their being aware that he should be accepted, but he wasn't really wanted and it was the first school eliminated from his acceptances.  Later that spring, someone linked me to an alumni newsletter where it said they were changing their financial aid away from need based aid to try to get/maintain a different student body.  That sure matched what happened for us.  I no longer recommend the school to anyone in our district.  The vast majority of kids in our area aren't among those they are looking for.  Even those who could afford it likely wouldn't be a good fit as we definitely don't have a country club demeanor even in the local country club. 

 

 

Yes, this is true.  They did shift to almost all merit a few years ago.  I read that too.  But, really, they just don't have a super competitive scholarship.  DD got the highest award they give with the James B Duke being full tuition.  They "wined and dined" her ... put us up for a weekend in a really nice hotel, covered everything, talked to us and talked to us (and to her), and we actually really liked the school. Had it been a full ride and not just full tuition she probably would have taken it.  I am actually super glad it wasn't though because she may have committed there before getting the full ride package offer from Duke.  She is so happy with where she is and Furman would have greatly compromised the things she was looking for in a college.  She wanted a very diverse school that was small enough that you always see people you know, but large enough to still see new faces too.  DD must text me once a week and randomly say "I am so glad I am here".  She almost committed to a small top ten liberal arts school before being offered the full ride from Duke.  She thinks she would have suffocated there or Furman.


Edited by Attolia, 20 January 2018 - 03:20 PM.

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#67 teachermom2834

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 04:00 PM

I think if you have need AND talent you can get it covered.

But many middle and upper middle class families have zero need. They aren't saving for reasons that Hoggirl has pointed out are unfathomable. That's the clincher.

A big issue is COL differences on the coasts. We spent a year raising our incomes and changing our career paths because if we had not we would be in the bottom half of earners not just in our ZIP but the metro area. We made six figures together then and make a fair six figures now. We save like crazy, no new cars.

So you can make a lot and feel like you will have "need" when really they expect you to just frankly move two counties away to save. Fair enough.

Then you get the other side with families who are middle class in their milieu die to responsible choices, a low COL area, and a small circle of friends with one income families. They get far more need aid than a "middle class" family would expect but on paper, financially, they are quite poor.

If the well-off family in this scenario isn't saving they are going to be in for a shock. Moreover, aid sometimes is given based on zip code. So if your kid is in a top zip code with top schools, they better do well. A child with fewer activities and lower SAT scores in a very rural area or poor urban area (take the average household income in your zip, that is how they judge advantage) is pegged as "overcome opportunities" and gets more per point than a child with more opportunities.

The point is it pays to be realistic about what is expected of you and to maximize what you have. Sounds like you guys did that. If you qualified for need you aren't rich.

But if you don't qualify for need that can leave a gap for those who haven't saved.


Oh sure. I understand and agree with all that. My point was just that some deals can be had for some kids at some schools in some situations. And that parents look at those cases and take that to mean it will apply to them too at the school their child wants to go to. I totally agree there is the large gap for most students and that our situation does not apply to most.
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#68 Corraleno

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 06:01 PM

While true, it definitely doesn't take hive-level skills. I did all my "college tours" via catalog before websites were a thing.  A lot bulkier and more time consuming.  Still doable for a teenager.  I can't imagine how a parent would be unable to figure it out.


What boggles my mind is the lack of even trying to figure it out. Last week the mom of a homeschooled senior told me he was still trying to decide where to apply. I mentioned that the regular decision deadline at a lot of schools was January 15th (we were having this conversation on the 13th), and she looked astonished and said "To start next fall? I thought it was like April."  :svengo: 

I've talked to a divorced mom whose daughter is planning to apply to lots of expensive private schools on the assumption that she will get 100% financial aid, since the mom is low income. No clue that (1) most colleges do not even claim to meet "full need," (2) the school's idea of "full need" and the parent's may be vastly different, and (3) all of the schools on her daughter's list use the CSS and count the noncustodial parent's income (which in her case is quite high). "Oh, her dad won't pay a dime for college, they can't count his income." Um, yes they can. They would be much better off looking at FAFSA-only schools, especially ones where the daughter's good-but-not-awesome stats might earn some nice merit aid. But the girl already has her hopes up for attending one of these top private schools. For free.  :001_huh:
 
The most egregious example though is a kid I've mentioned here before, who genuinely believes that he can just pick whichever Ivy he wants and his parents will write a check. He is not a top recruit in his sport, and he will have a very minimal transcript from an online school, with 3 yrs of science and history, 2 yrs of foreign language, and no APs or SAT2s. When I suggested he might look into schools like Penn State, Ohio State, and Stevens Institute (none of which are even safeties with his stats, but at least fencing would help at those), he literally wrinkled his nose and said no, his parents thought he should just focus on Ivies. I tried to gently talk to the mom about what the typical Ivy applicant looks like, and she insisted that once they interview him they'll see how brilliant he is. And, as if all that isn't bad enough, the online HS program they use states right on their website that they are not NCAA approved and students who need approval should not use their program. I cannot even comprehend how these people, who are far from stupid, have made so many shockingly bad decisions that will seriously limit this kid's options.  :blink:
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#69 MerryAtHope

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 06:04 PM

I remember those talks.  I always got the, "Well, he can get scholarships" comment.  Always.  As if you just pick which ones you want, and VIOILA!  You get to go to college for free.

 

LOL, yes, lots of misinformation about scholarships out there! On the one hand, they seem so prevalent--it can seem easy for an outsider to think, well, they're easy to get and you aren't paying much or anything after that. 

 

In reality, it's kind of like used-car shopping, where the student's GPA and ACT/SAT scores are the "trade-in" car that knocks so much $ off the price automatically. You still have to "buy the car" though! 

 

 

 

My speculation is that there is a lack of communication coupled with too many assumptions going in many different directions. It is hard for me to imagine a school counselor (even a good one) delving too far into financial issues. I think a school counselor might *assume* parents and kids had already had these discussions and feel it isn't under their purview (aka any of their business) except for a cursory explanation of how aid and loans work. I think parents make false assumptions about costs. I think school counselors assume students are communicating with their parents what counselors are telling them. I think students assume mom and dad will pay for whatever. I think parents fail to communicate a budget to their children.

Let's face it - while the world is certainly a LOT more open about discussing MANY more topics that were historically taboo, personal finances are still considered, well, pretty *personal.*

I had a friend (no kids) who lives in SoCal accompany another friend from Texas and her daughter on a Pomona visit. The daughter got in the car at the end of the day and, as they were discussing the visit, asked her mother, "How much money do we make?" Aside from the humor of the "we" aspect of this question, at least the daughter had understood that answer might make a difference in whether or not she could attend. Friend with no kids was aghast, "You can't ask that question! That's none of your business!" Well, yeah, I get that. I mean, I certainly never knew how much money my dad made, and I certainly wouldn't have asked that question. But there is a way to for a parent to communicate a budget without handing over an income statement and balance sheet.

Too many assumptions, too little communication.

 

I can understand a counselor not wanting to get deep into financials, but there's so much they could do without getting into it too much. 

"Do you know your EFC?"

"What's an EFC?"

"Have you and your parents filled out the FAFSA?"

etc...

 

Tons of schools require the FAFSA even if the student won't qualify for fin. aid--so it just seems really ridiculous to say they don't have to file. "File and find out" should be a no-brainer standard line. Let the family decide not to if they want, but the counselor should be more of an expert it seems.

 

LOL about asking about how much "we" make! Cute! 

 

I have friends whose kids do a class on "how much do I cost?" for high schoolers. Basically the student has to find out how much it costs to feed, clothe, house, educate, etc... them. I always thought that was a great idea!


Edited by MerryAtHope, 20 January 2018 - 06:07 PM.

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#70 Julie Smith

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 06:27 PM

It's up to you if you want to pay for grades.  
 
I was just putting in a thought about seeing the student as an individual: some individual students begin to suffer from mental illness at that age and may find that system too much to cope with.  Personally, I'd rather my child graduated.


I knew one parent whose rule was they would pay for any course that was passed, including books. So the student had to pay for the first semester, but if they passed all their classes they would get enough money from that to pay for the next semester. ... and so on.
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#71 justasque

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 06:39 PM

What boggles my mind is the lack of even trying to figure it out.... :blink:

 

Wow.  These folks are in for a HUGE wake-up call.  HUGE.

Which is a shame, because with careful research and planning ahead of time, they could probably have found a good-fit uni at an affordable price.

 

Another reason I suggest parents & kids start visiting schools as early as freshman year is that the *parents* can begin their education as to all the various details they are going to need.  You'd think homeschoolers, who are lacking guidance counselors and high school-based info nights, would be more inclined to do the research, and do it early - especially as they begin to plan the high school years so they know what they're aiming for.  But I guess you don't know what you don't know... 


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#72 regentrude

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 07:04 PM

The most egregious example though is a kid I've mentioned here before, who genuinely believes that he can just pick whichever Ivy he wants and his parents will write a check. He is not a top recruit in his sport, and he will have a very minimal transcript from an online school, with 3 yrs of science and history, 2 yrs of foreign language, and no APs or SAT2s. When I suggested he might look into schools like Penn State, Ohio State, and Stevens Institute (none of which are even safeties with his stats, but at least fencing would help at those), he literally wrinkled his nose and said no, his parents thought he should just focus on Ivies. I tried to gently talk to the mom about what the typical Ivy applicant looks like, and she insisted that once they interview him they'll see how brilliant he is. And, as if all that isn't bad enough, the online HS program they use states right on their website that they are not NCAA approved and students who need approval should not use their program. I cannot even comprehend how these people, who are far from stupid, have made so many shockingly bad decisions that will seriously limit this kid's options.  :blink:

 

I had a very hard conversation with a homeschooled senior who wanted my help with college applications. He wanted to go to Harvard, and it came as quite a shock that his "college prep" high school curriculum from a popular correspondence school did not even satisfy the admissions requirements for the local public university, and that there is absolutely zero chance he can get into Harvard with his high school education. He thought that they do "holistic" admission and that writing an essay about his family's hardship and different lifestyle would get him admitted. 

And I am pretty angry, not at his parents who did the best they could, but at the school who labels their substandard offerings "college prep" and preys on homeschooling parents who are uneducated about college.


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#73 MerryAtHope

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 07:21 PM

I had a very hard conversation with a homeschooled senior who wanted my help with college applications. He wanted to go to Harvard, and it came as quite a shock that his "college prep" high school curriculum from a popular correspondence school did not even satisfy the admissions requirements for the local public university, and that there is absolutely zero chance he can get into Harvard with his high school education. He thought that they do "holistic" admission and that writing an essay about his family's hardship and different lifestyle would get him admitted. 

And I am pretty angry, not at his parents who did the best they could, but at the school who labels their substandard offerings "college prep" and preys on homeschooling parents who are uneducated about college.

 

I believe I remember you mentioning that site before. It's all so sad--and yes, upsetting that the online school was so misleading. 


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#74 Diana P.

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 07:37 PM

I don't know why anyone who is college educated and wants the opportunity to attend college available to their child wouldn't have researched this stuff years ago. The lack of affordability has been in the news for at least a decade. The problems with student loans that are huge and last forever has been in the news for over a decade. When I say over a decade, I mean I started seeing stories in print, online, or on TV a decade ago and I've continued to see stories every few months during that decade since. I don't know why if you were planning for your child to attend college you wouldn't start reading a few of the stories.

I looked up college costs when we had our first child 23 years ago. In the 7 years between college graduation and my ds birth costs had gone up a lot at the public ivy I attended. I paid attention to state politics and could see no abatement in the rising costs just to go to a public school. Since I had a white, male child who by genetics was unlikely to have superior athletic skill, I knew I'd better start figuring out how we were going to save for college pretty much from the time he was born.

If you think you want an opportunity available for your child, why would you not learn what has to happen for said opportunity to be available.

So, yeah. I don't get it.
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#75 Attolia

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 08:15 PM

I have heard things from both homeschoolers and public schoolers alike that blow.my.mind.  Like last year, a lady I know came up to me in March and in the midst of the conversation said they were going to start visiting schools for the fall.  March, for real....just starting to think about it.


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#76 Tsuga

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 08:44 PM

I believe I remember you mentioning that site before. It's all so sad--and yes, upsetting that the online school was so misleading.


I know many hate common core per se but this is why a transparent national curriculum is needed.

How would someone know this? Why would you even think for a moment that "college prep" was not regulated in any way, shape or form?

I feel sad for that kid. Still, a lot can be made up for in community college.
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#77 Corraleno

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 09:00 PM

I know many hate common core per se but this is why a transparent national curriculum is needed.

How would someone know this? Why would you even think for a moment that "college prep" was not regulated in any way, shape or form?

I feel sad for that kid. Still, a lot can be made up for in community college.

 
But this really has nothing to do with common core, at least not in the cases that Regentrude and I are talking about. The online HS my son's friend uses is not letting kids skip Algebra or saying they don't need to take any science courses, or whatever. On paper, the schedule actually looks more "normal" than DS's transcript, in the sense that there is English 1, English 2, US History, US Govt, etc. It checks all the standard boxes for the minimum entry requirements at a basic state college — the problem is that they call it an "Advanced Diploma" and claim it prepares kids for selective colleges.
 
The only difference between the "Standard" and "Advanced" diplomas is that the latter includes 2 yrs of foreign language (which is all they offer) and they recommend that the 3 lab sciences be Bio, Chem, and Physics, instead of Earth Science, Bio, and an elective like Marine Science or Astronomy. The actual level of the coursework is all the same, and is not even honors level from what I've heard. But the parents actually believe that this is "Advanced" work and will make him competitive for Harvard. And these are not remotely stupid or uneducated people! It's truly mind-boggling.

#78 regentrude

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 09:06 PM

I feel sad for that kid. Still, a lot can be made up for in community college.

 

But that is an expensive way to remediate a high school education, especially for a low income family.



#79 Tsuga

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 11:42 PM

 
But this really has nothing to do with common core, at least not in the cases that Regentrude and I are talking about. The online HS my son's friend uses is not letting kids skip Algebra or saying they don't need to take any science courses, or whatever. On paper, the schedule actually looks more "normal" than DS's transcript, in the sense that there is English 1, English 2, US History, US Govt, etc. It checks all the standard boxes for the minimum entry requirements at a basic state college — the problem is that they call it an "Advanced Diploma" and claim it prepares kids for selective colleges.
 
The only difference between the "Standard" and "Advanced" diplomas is that the latter includes 2 yrs of foreign language (which is all they offer) and they recommend that the 3 lab sciences be Bio, Chem, and Physics, instead of Earth Science, Bio, and an elective like Marine Science or Astronomy. The actual level of the coursework is all the same, and is not even honors level from what I've heard. But the parents actually believe that this is "Advanced" work and will make him competitive for Harvard. And these are not remotely stupid or uneducated people! It's truly mind-boggling.

 

The reason that they can make these claims is that there is no way to verify them because there is no standard. Every single public school can also have a different standard and every single charter and every single private school could have a totally different standard.

 

There should be clear national standards so that people can benchmark their kids.

 

The Bush Institute does this for public school systems: http://www.bushcente...ateofourcities/

 

The Common Core (which was started by the same people--it's all trying to ensure that public money are not spent on crappy systems, but it was not possible without comparing them to a norm) gives the source of a national standard.

 

That's why the common core relates. Those are the basic standards, and if they had been accepted, people would know to look at them when evaluating their own kids' educations. "Okay, he has these skills, he knows these words... he's about two grade levels ahead." Fine.

 

But people can't do that. What are they supposed to do, call every single college for a list of standards themselves? That is what people do, but there is a better way, and that way is a national standard for expectations. And you'd realize if you had any sense that taking two years of a foreign language is in no way advanced...

 

 

 

But that is an expensive way to remediate a high school education, especially for a low income family.

 

Editing because I fail at multiquote.

 

A low-income family should not be paying much for community college. And they save off of Harvard. I know two people who went to Harvard from community college so it could actually work in his favor.


Edited by Tsuga, 20 January 2018 - 11:49 PM.

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#80 katilac

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 11:48 PM

 . He has great grades (top 4% in a class of over 600) and solid SAT scores (1490) but lacks in ECs and volunteer/work experience. No sports, no music, no leadership positions held in clubs, etc.  He still has been accepted so far to three of the six schools he applied to - we're still waiting on the others. Only two of those have given out merit aid yet and they both gave him scholarships that cover almost all tuition so it makes them doable for us. He is a very talented writer so I'm sure his essays were amazing. He only let us read the common app essay and I thought he overshared about some of his experiences and it would bite him but it worked out.

 

So, I do think some people are clueless and need to do more research but I no longer think it's as tough as I once did. I do wish there were more resources available, especially better counselors at schools, that could guide parents better. Our are useless and I learned more here than I have from them. 

 

But isn't a 1490 in about the 97th percentile? That's way more than a solid score. Or am I misunderstanding? I am an ACT person, that's entirely possibly. If you are in the top few percent with excellent grades, then yes, there will be many scholarships available. 

 

I had a very hard conversation with a homeschooled senior who wanted my help with college applications. He wanted to go to Harvard, and it came as quite a shock that his "college prep" high school curriculum from a popular correspondence school did not even satisfy the admissions requirements for the local public university, and that there is absolutely zero chance he can get into Harvard with his high school education. He thought that they do "holistic" admission and that writing an essay about his family's hardship and different lifestyle would get him admitted. 

And I am pretty angry, not at his parents who did the best they could, but at the school who labels their substandard offerings "college prep" and preys on homeschooling parents who are uneducated about college.

 

I also have some anger at the colleges who go on and on about holistic admission, when they have a super high, super tight ACT range and people who are not in shouting range of that have slim to no chance at admission. What they should say is that they evaluate holistically after they have a pile of applications that meet their very high standards - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, they just need to be straightforward. 


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#81 hopskipjump

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:21 AM

What boggles my mind is the lack of even trying to figure it out. Last week the mom of a homeschooled senior told me he was still trying to decide where to apply. I mentioned that the regular decision deadline at a lot of schools was January 15th (we were having this conversation on the 13th), and she looked astonished and said "To start next fall? I thought it was like April."  :svengo:

 

I remember when DD1 was applying early to several schools and the deadline was... what... like October 15th? I showed up to a senior parent's meeting (homeschool) while DD1 and I were in the midst of total stress and chaos trying to figure out application stuff, counselor letter, etc. I sat down and expected to commiserate with at least a COUPLE of the parents. When I mentioned that DD was up to her neck with college essays and I was fretting over the homeschool "school report" for the Common App - I got 100% blank looks from the other parents. None of them had any idea what I meant. I said that some of the scholarships and honors programs she was applying for had very early deadlines and a mom said condescendingly, "Oh, no. You must have read that wrong. The <local public university> takes scholarship applications until March. There's no way a school sets a deadline this early." And they all tittered at my silliness.  :glare:  She was even wrong about the local public U - they DO take late applications for scholarships, BUT that's only if there's $$$ left in the pot. Late applications aren't guaranteed a darn thing! I didn't bother informing her of that, though. Figured if she didn't want to read the fine print... then... whatever.

 

Her kid (perfectly bright - always intended to go to college) hasn't started school yet. He's still working at his "temporary" job 20 hours a week.

 

 

 

I remember those talks.  I always got the, "Well, he can get scholarships" comment.  Always.  As if you just pick which ones you want, and VIOILA!  You get to go to college for free.

 

Many of them are now facing the fact that either their kid isn't going (many have opted to just not go) or they are taking out hefty loans.  A few are doing ROTC.  

 

It is one thing to not be able to afford it and plan accordingly, it is another to be in denial and then somehow "shocked" that it isn't what the bottom of your rock living told you it would be.

 

 

Yes to this. Several of my kids' friends planned to go to college, but haven't yet because they had no idea how to go about the process. This is why I didn't go to college. My parents had zero interest, and I didn't know how to go about it. :/

 

Everyone. E.v.e.r.y.o.n.e. told my DD1 how scholarships would just be rolled out like a red carpet for her for both academics and sports. In the end, she WAS offered a LOT of significant scholarships - but every single one of those was a result of she and/or I doing the legwork, connecting with people, staying on top of deadlines, asking questions, etc. The offers certainly didn't show up on her doorstep with an offer like a Publisher's Clearing House check. She was a recruited athlete, and still... LOTS of work on our part to keep everything juggled properly.

 

In the end - we do what we HAVE to do. Paying OOP for our 3 kids to go to college just isn't an option. We have to look for financial aid, scholarships, etc and do a ton of research to see which is not only the best "fit" but also financially viable. At our financial level, funnily enough, often the "fancy" OOS schools are cheaper than the local universities.


Edited by hopskipjump, 21 January 2018 - 12:25 AM.

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#82 MerryAtHope

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:48 AM

I know many hate common core per se but this is why a transparent national curriculum is needed.

How would someone know this? 

 

I hear what you're saying, but even if this existed, I'm sure that Harvard would still require much more (and I doubt public education would ever be aimed at helping students meet private school requirements, which are all going to vary). I do find it surprising that someone would set their sites on Harvard without doing a lot more research, but it's upsetting that an online school's advertising would be so misleading.

 

As to how someone would know this--it's such easy information to find. I've never been to Harvard's website, but every other college website I've ever visited listed their minimum requirements. That's some of the first information I ever looked for and found as I embarked on teaching high school. How can someone ever aim at a target if they don't even know what the target is? But even if it wasn't on Harvard's website, I see this basic question about teaching high school asked and answered again and again on various homeschool message boards like this one. Or, a simple brochure like HSLDA's Highschool Brochure lists out 3 high school plans--General HS, General College Prep, Rigorous College Prep. I'm not sure that online school's "Advanced" program even ticks all the items in the "General" category, and that's such a common set of requirements. It's really appalling. 


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#83 justasque

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:59 AM

The reason that they can make these claims is that there is no way to verify them because there is no standard. Every single public school can also have a different standard and every single charter and every single private school could have a totally different standard.

 

There should be clear national standards so that people can benchmark their kids.,,,

 

I think private schools *should* have different standards - their standards reflect their educational philosophy.  Different philosophies create different schools, which gives prospective students opportunities to find the "best fit" school.  It also allows private schools to adjust to meet the needs of individual students, and of their specific local population.  Schools do not all have to be the same.  So how to decide?  There are lots of things to consider, of course.  But in terms of college prep, it helps to ask what the high school's students are doing post-graduation..  My local private college-prep high schools publish lists of colleges that have accepted their recent graduates.  In addition, their graduation programs list, for each graduating student, the schools at which they were accepted and the one they have decided to attend.  This data of course doesn't mean that every prospective high school student would get into every college on the list if they went to that high school.  But it does give a sense of where their student body is aiming, and how likely they are to meet their goals.  (FWIW, my local "college-prep" high schools are exactly that.  Typically, less than one percent of students at these schools join the military or choose not to go to college for one reason or another.)


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#84 Corraleno

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 01:17 AM

The Common Core (which was started by the same people--it's all trying to ensure that public money are not spent on crappy systems, but it was not possible without comparing them to a norm) gives the source of a national standard.
 
That's why the common core relates. Those are the basic standards, and if they had been accepted, people would know to look at them when evaluating their own kids' educations. "Okay, he has these skills, he knows these words... he's about two grade levels ahead." Fine.
 
But people can't do that. What are they supposed to do, call every single college for a list of standards themselves? That is what people do, but there is a better way, and that way is a national standard for expectations. And you'd realize if you had any sense that taking two years of a foreign language is in no way advanced...


But Common Core was adopted, by 42 states, and the public schools in those states are supposed to be following those standards, which only apply to math (through Algebra 2) and language arts anyway. It really has nothing to do with other subjects, or how many courses in which subjects are needed for college at what level. Sorry to be dense, but what does Common Core have to do the fact that elite schools often want to see 4 yrs of foreign language, state schools may only require 2, and community colleges and other lower-ranked schools may not require any?

Having a required "national curriculum" for all core subjects (presumably with testing in every subject to ensure that the standards were met) won't change the fact that Harvard is always going to require a higher level of academics than the College of East Podunk, and it makes no sense to require every student to meet the entry requirements of Harvard (as if they could). So I guess I don't understand when you say "what are they supposed to do, call every college for a list of their standards?" Well, yeah, every college does have slightly different requirements, so students who want to attend elite schools need to make sure they know what those schools require and plan accordingly. I don't find that unreasonable at all.
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#85 Tsuga

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 01:46 AM

But Common Core was adopted, by 42 states, and the public schools in those states are supposed to be following those standards, which only apply to math (through Algebra 2) and language arts anyway. It really has nothing to do with other subjects, or how many courses in which subjects are needed for college at what level. Sorry to be dense, but what does Common Core have to do the fact that elite schools often want to see 4 yrs of foreign language, state schools may only require 2, and community colleges and other lower-ranked schools may not require any?

 

Sometimes I make connections that are obvious to me, but apparently not obvious to many so thanks for your patience and continued willingness to engage.

 

My point was that national standards and national benchmarks are helpful. The Common Core is incomplete. The ideal core would elaborate on what comprises advanced, etc. The point is a unified benchmark.

 

This would not give a specific answer regarding a specific college.

 

However, it would allow parents to compare a supposedly "college prep" curriculum with a national standard for "high school minimum standards" and "college-ready".


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#86 Tsuga

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 01:53 AM

I think private schools *should* have different standards - their standards reflect their educational philosophy.  Different philosophies create different schools, which gives prospective students opportunities to find the "best fit" school.  It also allows private schools to adjust to meet the needs of individual students, and of their specific local population.  Schools do not all have to be the same.  So how to decide?  There are lots of things to consider, of course.  But in terms of college prep, it helps to ask what the high school's students are doing post-graduation..  My local private college-prep high schools publish lists of colleges that have accepted their recent graduates.  In addition, their graduation programs list, for each graduating student, the schools at which they were accepted and the one they have decided to attend.  This data of course doesn't mean that every prospective high school student would get into every college on the list if they went to that high school.  But it does give a sense of where their student body is aiming, and how likely they are to meet their goals.  (FWIW, my local "college-prep" high schools are exactly that.  Typically, less than one percent of students at these schools join the military or choose not to go to college for one reason or another.)

 

Benchmarks aren't standards, and standards aren't curricula, and curricula are not philosophies, though.

 

It is one thing to say, "Every young adult should have mastered approaching novel real-world problems using algebraic thinking and be able to solve a 5-step problem using mathematical notation before college." That's a benchmark.

 

That doesn't mean you tell people whether it should be in a Christ-centered environment, or whether you use an autodidactic approach, or a project-based hands-on approach, or whether it should be a highly competitive environment, or a whole-family environment.

 

It doesn't speak to the curriculum, whether it's Saxon or Singapore or AOPS or what.

 

It just gives an expected outcome.

 

In the example Regentrude gave, the family apparently was able to accept the "minimum graduation requirement" standard as a "college preparatory education". But why? If they looked online there is no benchmark. They could look at Texas as a standard, or look at New York. But how would they know?

 

The Ivies count on as many applications as possible to advertise selectivity. So they don't want to be clear that "if you only have this, don't even bother".

 

I don't think it should be hard for any family in the US that wants to public or homeschool, to look online at a government-regulated website and say "okay, this is what a standard diploma is, and this is the transcript that is accepted at 90% of state universities, and the other 10% require this." I think we should have that. 

 

Incidentally, many people are here precisely because we provide nothing of the sort. One reason I follow the WTM curriculum (even if we don't implement the whole thing) is that I believe that it's a great benchmark

 

 

 

 

I hear what you're saying, but even if this existed, I'm sure that Harvard would still require much more

 

Yes, exactly, but if you knew those two things, you could infer a lot:

 

1) This is the national standard

2) Harvard must require much more than the national standard

 

Ergo... (3) Harvard must require much more than this, should I really trust it?

 

It's a lot simpler than evaluating an entire curriculum.

 

That's why the SAT and ACT are so popular. They are a common benchmark. They give you a sense of where you are. They are far from perfect and they are each only one data point but one data point to orient yourself is better than nothing!

I hear what you're saying, but even if this existed, I'm sure that Harvard would still require much more


Edited by Tsuga, 21 January 2018 - 01:57 AM.

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#87 lewelma

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 03:18 AM

I have heard things from both homeschoolers and public schoolers alike that blow.my.mind.  Like last year, a lady I know came up to me in March and in the midst of the conversation said they were going to start visiting schools for the fall.  March, for real....just starting to think about it.

 

This was us.  It was April that he decided to switch from NZ system to American system for high school education, and apply to American Universities.  I'm pretty with it as is he, but man did we have to do a TON of work to come up to speed, understand the system, get the standardized testing done, make sure he had the course requirements, pick the schools, visit the schools, do the applications, study the financials, etc.  I'm telling you it was a pretty full on 8 months!


Edited by lewelma, 21 January 2018 - 03:19 AM.


#88 Corraleno

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:11 AM

This was us.  It was April that he decided to switch from NZ system to American system for high school education, and apply to American Universities.  I'm pretty with it as is he, but man did we have to do a TON of work to come up to speed, understand the system, get the standardized testing done, make sure he had the course requirements, pick the schools, visit the schools, do the applications, study the financials, etc.  I'm telling you it was a pretty full on 8 months!


I think Attolia meant the other family were planning to visit schools in March believing that the student could get accepted and enroll in college that fall, not just apply in the fall. That's also what the mom I mentioned above thought — she just assumed that her son could apply sometime in April, get accepted within a month or two, and enroll in August/September.
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#89 lewelma

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:32 AM

Oh my. That timing is possible here in NZ but very not in USA. I've been very surprised by our family is USA thinking that getting into university is just as easy as it was 30 years ago. The advice we have gotten has been very out of date.
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#90 Laura Corin

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 05:19 AM

I agree that we should support our kids.

But if my child needs mental health support then I will pay for mental health support--not a diploma without the grades and work experience to support it.

[omitted repeated text]

If my child cannot deal with performance-based incentives, then we will look into counseling and health care to support them in a low-stress environment while they prepare for independence.

Not tuition at a four-year university. I'm sensitive to the individual, but mental health issues are not "how do I pay for college" issues. They are "how do I pay for health care" issues.

I think college is an investment. The person is going into a highly competitive, 100% performance-oriented workforce. Nobody else is going to pay them based on hope in their potential.

Edit... I think this is a social class issue as well. If you are a salaried worker, meaning, you are not independently wealthy, then making a $100k+ investment in an individual that is not able to work in a performance based environment may not be the best idea.

However, there are many people who are incredibly wealthy. In those cases, getting a child through school regardless of grades or performance is a worthwhile endeavor. That's because they probably have connections and means to set their kid up in an equally supportive work environment, even if that means funding the kid's art career for an indefinite period and I can see why anyone with the means to do so, would do that!

So I don't mean to imply it's not worth it for everyone. But for the working through middle classes, college is first and foremost an economic investment in their children. It's not a social class guarantor because a college degree isn't enough to maintain that social class status. In that case, the #1 thing you want to do is set them up for independence, and a college career in which they are funded irrespective of performance is not how you would do that.

And maybe I sounded harsher than I meant to be, and for that I apologize.


Sorry for the long quotation, but I didn't want to take out your secondary thoughts.

In the case that I was thinking of, the young person (diagnosed and treated for mental illness after taking medical leave from university) found the specific demands of university stressful because of the large amount of self regulation required. That same person had previously been successful (winning awards) in a low wage 9 to 5 job with clear expectations and requirements. The degree was something he had to struggle through (with continuing treatment) in order to be able to set up an ordinary middle class career.

People are different. University is not the workplace.
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#91 Laura Corin

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 05:30 AM

I hear what you're saying, but even if this existed, I'm sure that Harvard would still require much more (and I doubt public education would ever be aimed at helping students meet private school requirements, which are all going to vary).


For comparison, England has a national curriculum with national exams. To get into Oxford or Cambridge, you pretty much need to get all As on all exams,then show some kind of specific interest or talent in that particular subject. That might get you into the interviews, which are conducted by faculty.
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#92 regentrude

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 08:40 AM

I've been very surprised by our family is USA thinking that getting into university is just as easy as it was 30 years ago. 

 

Oh, "getting into university" is easy!  It's getting into a selective university that is hard. 


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#93 regentrude

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 08:45 AM

I hear what you're saying, but even if this existed, I'm sure that Harvard would still require much more (and I doubt public education would ever be aimed at helping students meet private school requirements, which are all going to vary). I do find it surprising that someone would set their sites on Harvard without doing a lot more research, but it's upsetting that an online school's advertising would be so misleading.

 

As to how someone would know this--it's such easy information to find. 

 

...when you know to look for it!

If your parents have not completed high school and no family member has gone to college, you may simply not know that this is something you need to research. Sure, once you know to look for it, the information is not hard to find. But it may not ever occur to you.

The student was concerned that his not-4.0 GPA might be keeping him from an Ivy - but was completely unaware of the fact that, of his four math credits, two were middle school level. His parents would not have been able to ascertain this; their kid took more math than they ever mastered.

 

I only then realized fully how privileged my kids are because their parents know about college.


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#94 RootAnn

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 08:51 AM

What boggles my mind is the lack of even trying to figure it out. Last week the mom of a homeschooled senior told me he was still trying to decide where to apply. I mentioned that the regular decision deadline at a lot of schools was January 15th (we were having this conversation on the 13th), and she looked astonished and said "To start next fall? I thought it was like April." :svengo:

Not knowing if this was also a mom looking at expensive private schools and not aware of what part of the country you are in, I must say that this is actually true in my part of the country (middle) for public state colleges.

Many of the state universities and state colleges in the 5-7 middle of the US (think Kansas, Iowa, Missouri, Nebraska, South and North Dakota, Wyoming) have rolling admissions. You can apply in April. Scholarship deadlines might be January, but you could possibly get a small scholarship as late as March if the money holds out. (I haven't checked deadlines for any lately so I am not sure how many this would work for.)

Also, most (public Us) in this area don't take the Common App. My local friend who graduated a homeschool last year had never heard of it. Her son only applied to the type of schools I mentioned above and is attending the local state college for the first couple years while living at home to save money.

But we hardly have any homeschooler go all the way to graduation in our small town. I can think of five in the last eight years. So, there isn't much experience with the process of even homeschooling high school. (One local homeschooler of littles still thinks her kids will have to take some sort of GED because she hasn't researched that far. Her oldest is in 3rd grade, so she has time. Edited to add that both her and her husband still have massive college debt from their undergrad and graduate degrees. And, she wants her kids to go to private Catholic colleges so they gave a better chance of finding a good spouse. I have just kept my mouth shut so far.)

Edited by RootAnn, 21 January 2018 - 08:56 AM.

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#95 Penelope

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:05 PM

I think Attolia meant the other family were planning to visit schools in March believing that the student could get accepted and enroll in college that fall, not just apply in the fall. That's also what the mom I mentioned above thought — she just assumed that her son could apply sometime in April, get accepted within a month or two, and enroll in August/September.

  

As RootAnn said, there are number of schools, particularly non selective ones, that have later admissions deadlines. https://blog.prepsch...s-complete-list
It might not be smart to wait until the deadline for some of these. But many students only apply to a couple of schools, ones that they are pretty sure they will get into.


...when you know to look for it!
If your parents have not completed high school and no family member has gone to college, you may simply not know that this is something you need to research. Sure, once you know to look for it, the information is not hard to find. But it may not ever occur to you.
The student was concerned that his not-4.0 GPA might be keeping him from an Ivy - but was completely unaware of the fact that, of his four math credits, two were middle school level. His parents would not have been able to ascertain this; their kid took more math than they ever mastered.
 
I only then realized fully how privileged my kids are because their parents know about college.


I agree. Even though the process has changed, I think that students who have parents who have attended college often have a major advantage. This is true even for traditionally educated students, but at least at many schools there is a college prep track and some sort of college counseling. Of course, college counseling at schools sometimes isn’t great, and not good enough to meet requirements of more selective schools, but probably good enough to make sure the boxes for the nearest state university are checked.
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#96 RootAnn

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:52 PM

I agree. Even though the process has changed, I think that students who have parents who have attended college often have a major advantage.

 

Or, in my case, students whose older siblings attended college. The counselor at my oldest brother's high school insisted that your ACT scores never improved with taking it more than once, so he only took it once. (His oldest child took the ACT twice and got the same score both times, so I know that some people don't improve much, especially when they don't prep at all between tests.) I'm the fourth child who benefited from all who came before me, especially my older sister, who was a better student than I. My father graduated from college, but wasn't involved at all with the college process for any of us. My mother never attended college, but she learned with each of her kids' experiences. She's aware of how expensive colleges are today and is a big proponent of living at home and going to the local school to save money.


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#97 Sandwalker

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 05:18 PM

Not knowing if this was also a mom looking at expensive private schools and not aware of what part of the country you are in, I must say that this is actually true in my part of the country (middle) for public state colleges.

Many of the state universities and state colleges in the 5-7 middle of the US (think Kansas, Iowa, Missouri, Nebraska, South and North Dakota, Wyoming) have rolling admissions. You can apply in April. Scholarship deadlines might be January, but you could possibly get a small scholarship as late as March if the money holds out. (I haven't checked deadlines for any lately so I am not sure how many this would work for.)

Also, most (public Us) in this area don't take the Common App. My local friend who graduated a homeschool last year had never heard of it. Her son only applied to the type of schools I mentioned above and is attending the local state college for the first couple years while living at home to save money.

But we hardly have any homeschooler go all the way to graduation in our small town. I can think of five in the last eight years. So, there isn't much experience with the process of even homeschooling high school. (One local homeschooler of littles still thinks her kids will have to take some sort of GED because she hasn't researched that far. Her oldest is in 3rd grade, so she has time. Edited to add that both her and her husband still have massive college debt from their undergrad and graduate degrees. And, she wants her kids to go to private Catholic colleges so they gave a better chance of finding a good spouse. I have just kept my mouth shut so far.)

Why not help her out so she can find the information and plan accordingly?

#98 RootAnn

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 05:29 PM

Ahh, because she's the type who always know better than you do. She's blown off the few comments I've dropped over the last couple of years about various other topics where I've trod the path before her and hoped to help her keep from making the same mistakes I did.

Why not help her out so she can find the information and plan accordingly?

I could show her websites with dollar amounts and she'd find some way of explaining them away. (When she's been in the company of others when the topic of college costs comes up, she's always said she knows better than we do since she's younger & has her Masters.)  :smilielol5:

 

Nope. She'll figure it out in her own time.


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#99 Corraleno

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 06:09 PM

Not knowing if this was also a mom looking at expensive private schools and not aware of what part of the country you are in, I must say that this is actually true in my part of the country (middle) for public state colleges.

As RootAnn said, there are number of schools, particularly non selective ones, that have later admissions deadlines. https://blog.prepsch...s-complete-list


Here, the deadline at the state flagship is 1/15, and it's 2/1 at the #2 public. But this kid wants to fence in college, which narrows his choices to around 30 schools with men's teams, most of which are highly selective (including 6 Ivies, Duke, ND, MIT, JHU, etc.). There are another 40 or so colleges with club teams, most of which are also quite selective (Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern, Swarthmore, UVA, etc.). If he waited until April to apply, he'd be limited to a very few schools like Wayne State and Cleveland State, which are not what he's looking for. He's a really bright kid, with excellent test scores, interested in engineering, and he's already missed the deadline for most of the schools he'd be interested in. His other problem is that his mom said she was not going to bother with "all that NCAA stuff," and he could just walk onto a team instead. I explained that he still needs NCAA approval to fence as a freshman walk-on in Div 1 & 2, and suggested they might want focus on either Div 3 teams or schools with good clubs. She asked how in the world she was supposed to figure out what colleges had fencing clubs. (If you literally just google "college fencing clubs," the top hit is a complete list of clubs with extensive data on each school.)

This mom is normally a pretty sharp person. In fact, all of the parents of the three kids I mentioned in my earlier post are college educated and most have professional careers. I can understand if parents who never attended college themselves don't understand the process, or even know where to start researching, especially if their kids are in B&M schools and they assume someone else is taking care of that. But educated, professional homeschooling parents who don't bothered to look at a single college website, to figure out basic costs, deadlines, requirements? I just really can't wrap my head around that.  :confused1:
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#100 Diana P.

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 06:22 PM

Here, the deadline at the state flagship is 1/15, and it's 2/1 at the #2 public. But this kid wants to fence in college, which narrows his choices to around 30 schools with men's teams, most of which are highly selective (including 6 Ivies, Duke, ND, MIT, JHU, etc.). There are another 40 or so colleges with club teams, most of which are also quite selective (Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern, Swarthmore, UVA, etc.). If he waited until April to apply, he'd be limited to a very few schools like Wayne State and Cleveland State, which are not what he's looking for. He's a really bright kid, with excellent test scores, interested in engineering, and he's already missed the deadline for most of the schools he'd be interested in. His other problem is that his mom said she was not going to bother with "all that NCAA stuff," and he could just walk onto a team instead. I explained that he still needs NCAA approval to fence as a freshman walk-on in Div 1 & 2, and suggested they might want focus on either Div 3 teams or schools with good clubs. She asked how in the world she was supposed to figure out what colleges had fencing clubs. (If you literally just google "college fencing clubs," the top hit is a complete list of clubs with extensive data on each school.)
 

 

This just boggles my mind. 

 

I remember January application deadlines 35 years ago. And "not going to bother with NCAA stuff". Well then your kid doesn't play, period. 

 

 

Now, I'm off to consider that it's been 35 years since I graduated high school.  :ohmy:


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