Christian school Bible class concerns

[Storygirl]

Thanks, everyone! My kids are home from school now, so I have to deal with homework, etc. DH is following up with the pastor, and hopefully I'll have the chance to update later.

 

A couple of quick responses -- this is a very small co-ed class of 6-8 graders. 14 kids total, I believe.

 

It's tricky to get my kids to give me specific examples, though we've had several conversations about it.

 

DH is going to ask the pastor if he will send out a list of the passages they will discuss each week, so that parents can be informed and have the chance to discuss sensitive material with their kids at home. A big part of the problem is the lack of communication.

[Storygirl]

Story, I'm just jumping to the end here, but I think I can tell you why it makes you feel uncomfortable and you can say oh no that's not why. Breaking down sexual boundaries and bringing up things adults don't normally discuss with kids, having the kids violate their consciences, is a technique of people grooming kids for sexual abuse.

 

That's why it bugs you. It's not right. 

 

Yes. This.

 

I'm probably hypersensitive. And my kids may be hypersensitive, because of the discussions that we had to have with them this summer.

 

I told them then that they should come to me if an adult says or does something they feel uncomfortable with. I'm glad that they have come to me with this problem.

 

The pastor may be doing absolutely nothing wrong.It's likely that he is really well meaning and has completely good intentions. But the fact that he is not communicating with parents that he is talking about these topics with the kids...it doesn't sit right with me.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

I'd be wanting the youtube video links. That way you can decide for yourself. Your issue is not with the Bible, lol.

 

Saying you're not allowed to be sensitive is how molesters get away with stuff. You should listen to your mom gut.

Edited December 11, 2017 by PeterPan

[sassenach]

I am on guard about people that I don't know talking about sex with my kids. I just am, because of the incidents that I referred to.

 

I think it's okay for them to read through a passage of the Bible that contains an unsavory incident. There are many of them, after all.

 

But I wonder if the pastor is thinking through this clearly enough. Does he really need to be bringing these things up over and over? My one son says that the sixth grade kids seem to be struggling with it. They put their heads down and groan. They ask questions that perhaps prolong the discussions past what the pastor prepared for. 

 

This is not unexpected behavior from kids this age, of course. But the fact that it is happening multiple times concerns me.

 

And the pastor said in his email that he wants to be a safe person for the kids to talk to. But I have not determined that he is a safe person, because I don't know him. And he is talking about sexual topics with my kids without alerting me as a parent that he is doing so.

 

This first bolded point is important and understandable.

 

An example, when talking about the idolatry, he made a point of talking about how some people were worshipping "gods of sex" and had to do sex acts as part of worship.

 

As far as I can recall, the words "gods of sex" is not in the Bible. It is not something that needs to be described to kids of this age.

 

Is it?

The second, though, makes me think that it's not so much that he's being explicit, but that he's not omitting stuff. Because understanding that sex sacrifices were part of idol worship is actually a normal teaching point. Meaning, he's not going out of his way to bring up sex. He's teaching the same points that he would teach to adults.

 

This is a tricky age. Some parents are comfortable with these topics and some aren't. At our church, kids start attending the adult service in 6th grade. We had a whole group of kids age up just as we were starting a series through Judges. Knowing/understanding some of the sexual nuances is not something we avoid at our church. Most of the parents were ok, but one family really struggled with it. Their dd ended up assisting in kids ministry a lot through that series.

 

I'm not seeing any red flags in the danger sense, but if your boys aren't comfortable, they'll need a solution. You're probably going to need a sit down with administration to form that solution. To be clear, I don't think the pastor is doing anything wrong, and that's not the approach that I would take. I do think that your sons' concerns need to be honored, and that might mean a solution just for them, not having the pastor change his entire teaching plan. 

 

 

 

[Storygirl]

It's bothering me, because it's bothering my boys, and I'm taking their concerns seriously, as I promised them I always would. So I need to figure it out.

 

And because my boys think the lessons have been inappropriate, I need to figure out if they really have been. Or not.

[sassenach]

It's bothering me, because it's bothering my boys, and I'm taking their concerns seriously, as I promised them I always would. So I need to figure it out.

 

And because my boys think the lessons have been inappropriate, I need to figure out if they really have been. Or not.

YES.

 

But also, what's inappropriate for your family may not be inappropriate for others. So I would say that it might be more helpful to focus less on "is this inappropriate?" and focus more on "this is not appropriate for my kids, so how shall we handle it?"

 

Nothing you have written flags as universally inappropriate, however, your desire to be responsive to your sons' communicated needs is important and definitely calls for a solution.

[MedicMom]

I get it—I’ve been in situations where beloved ministers had been found to have been having affairs with church secretaries for many years. More recently the married youth pastor at my in laws church was found to be inappropriately texting a young lady in the youth group—very young, like 15. And didn’t stop when told to. He was removed from the position but the church convinced the girl’s mom not to go to the police or pursue outside recourse, it was very covered ups. DH was so disgusted by this I don’t think he will ever attend church again after being a very committed churchgoer all his life.

 

So YES, it does happen. But unless there is much much more to this story, like crude jokes, details, etc, I don’t think this rises to the levels of grooming. Also, I think it’s pretty common for ministers to want to be a safe person for their congregation, young, adult, whoever. None of what you’re saying raises any red flags for me. Truthfully, it’s been the ministers whom everyone felt they knew the best that took advantage. :(

 

I suspect your kids are overly sensitive right now combined with being at a super uncomfortable age especially in a co-ed class. Middle school is so awkward about sex anyway, and the Bible contains a lot of people behaving very badly.

[Jaybee]

I can understand your concerns. While I know there are references to sexual activities, etc., in the Bible, often as background to the OT stories, how it is dealt with is what seems to be the big deal here. Is he matter-of-factly explaining the context, is he emphasizing it more than just mentioning it lightly as he passes over the material, or is he being a little crude and trying to be funny? I think you'll just have to explore it further.

[lots of little ducklings]

I can understand your concerns. While I know there are references to sexual activities, etc., in the Bible, often as background to the OT stories, how it is dealt with is what seems to be the big deal here. Is he matter-of-factly explaining the context, is he emphasizing it more than just mentioning it lightly as he passes over the material, or is he being a little crude and trying to be funny? I think you'll just have to explore it further.

 

:iagree:

 

 

Three of my children, ages 7-10, have studied Genesis through 2 Samuel over the last three years in their Bible class.  We've had zero difficulty navigating mature topics when they arose.   They classroom teachers have approached sexual issues in a way that is age-appropriate for the youngest age in the group, and in a way that keeps the focus where it should be: on the Biblical/theological message of the passage within the context of all Scripture.  Communication is great, and the teachers defer to parents (who supervise homework/readings at home) when children have questions re: violence/sex that go beyond the Biblical/theological goals of the lesson.

 

So... If I were in the OP's shoes, I'd want to explore the situation further, too.  It could be entirely innocent, and communication could provide a great deal of clarity for both the OP and her children.  Or it could be sign of immature/inexperienced teaching -- which would make me contemplate finding a different class (after all, it's a Bible class, not a sex-ed class; if an inordinate amount of time is spent on sex-related topics, I'd question the teacher's understanding of the course objectives.) 

[PeppermintPattie]

I am on guard about people that I don't know talking about sex with my kids. I just am, because of the incidents that I referred to.

 

I think it's okay for them to read through a passage of the Bible that contains an unsavory incident. There are many of them, after all.

 

But I wonder if the pastor is thinking through this clearly enough. Does he really need to be bringing these things up over and over? My one son says that the sixth grade kids seem to be struggling with it. They put their heads down and groan. They ask questions that perhaps prolong the discussions past what the pastor prepared for. 

 

This is not unexpected behavior from kids this age, of course. But the fact that it is happening multiple times concerns me.

 

And the pastor said in his email that he wants to be a safe person for the kids to talk to. But I have not determined that he is a safe person, because I don't know him. And he is talking about sexual topics with my kids without alerting me as a parent that he is doing so.

 

An example, when talking about the idolatry, he made a point of talking about how some people were worshipping "gods of sex" and had to do sex acts as part of worship.

 

As far as I can recall, the words "gods of sex" is not in the Bible. It is not something that needs to be described to kids of this age.

 

Is it?

The two things you mentioned above (bolded) are huge red flags that this type of discussion isn't appropriate! It sounds like the kids are divided into those who hate having the topic of sex come up and those who enjoy discussing it and will manipulate the pastor into longer (and probably deeper) discussions. Your kids don't need Bible class to be a safe place to discuss sexual perversion, and I don't think that you knowing which passages will be taught when will be any kind of help. It just needs to stop. 

 

If this were about marital sex, that would be one thing (and probably not so interesting in a Bible class context for pre-teens). But it's about abuse and perversion. He's taking away the kids' innocence and introducing ideas that they're not emotionally mature enough to handle well. He's either grooming these kids or he's ... I don't know. I'd put my money on grooming. 

[brehon]

So they, the kids, asking questions for deeper discussion past what the pastor was prepared for means the pastor is grooming them? What?

I completely agree with you. I was sitting at the table blinking and rereading because I was sure I misread something. I hardly think kids asking questions means the pastor is grooming them.

 

OP, I think you can acknowledge your kids’ concerns without believing the pastor is doing anything wrong or inappropriate generally. It may just be that your kids aren’t ready for the depth of discussion yet or it may be that the prior experience you referenced is influencing, or at least is contributing to, their discomfort.

[Wheres Toto]

The two things you mentioned above (bolded) are huge red flags that this type of discussion isn't appropriate! It sounds like the kids are divided into those who hate having the topic of sex come up and those who enjoy discussing it and will manipulate the pastor into longer (and probably deeper) discussions. Your kids don't need Bible class to be a safe place to discuss sexual perversion, and I don't think that you knowing which passages will be taught when will be any kind of help. It just needs to stop. 

 

If this were about marital sex, that would be one thing (and probably not so interesting in a Bible class context for pre-teens). But it's about abuse and perversion. He's taking away the kids' innocence and introducing ideas that they're not emotionally mature enough to handle well. He's either grooming these kids or he's ... I don't know. I'd put my money on grooming. 

 

I actually took those two lines as clear indications he's NOT doing anything inappropriate.

Putting their heads down and groaning at something they are uncomfortable with is a perfectly normal reaction from middle school kids.  Especially when it's first brought up and they are embarrassed.

 

Then, they often get caught up in the discussion, forget a little bit of their embarrassment and start asking questions.

 

I'm teaching Sunday School to 6th to 8th graders this year.  My class is boy-heavy.

[catz]

I would ask for a syllabus or something like that. I don’t get a grooming vibe at alll. Many kids in this age range are taking sex Ed in a classroom situation. It sounds like this is wrapped in a bible context. My 8th grade kid is taking sex Ed at church and their discussions are more explicit than what I’ve heard here. If you don’t like it, just ask that your kids are excused. I don’t think discomfort of the discussion necessarily means it shouldn’t happen. I would just want communications open.

[PeppermintPattie]

So they, the kids, asking questions for deeper discussion past what the pastor was prepared for means the pastor is grooming them? What?

 

She said that the pastor is bringing up this topic "over and over," and that the kids are "struggling with it." 

 

I assume she means the sexual topics and not, say, Hebrew vocabulary or the geography of Israel. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

She said that the pastor is bringing up this topic "over and over," and that the kids are "struggling with it." 

 

I assume she means the sexual topics and not, say, Hebrew vocabulary or the geography of Israel. 

 

If they are reading through Judges (as one example in the OT) then the Bible brings up the topic over and over.  But having said that, I think that for a theme like that you only really need to address it once.  Then you can just say "this is similar to how they have acted before and we know that God disapproves" or something to that effect.   You don't have to exegete each mention of it.  But if they are reading through the OT then yes, they would be reading about issues like this over and over again.  It's inherent to the part of the Bible that they are studying. 

[Soror]

It sounds to me like it is your sons that need to give more info, not the school or teacher. 

 

Nothing you've said would cause me any big concern. 

 

I completely agree with listening to our kid's concern and I think that it is great that they came to you but the way you've described things it seems like they are confusing a general uncomfortableness with the topic with inappropriateness. 

 

If it was my kids I'd be telling them that I need more information about what exactly is making them uncomfortable so I can figure out the best course of action and if they truly feel uncomfortable but I can't ascertain that it was anything inappropriate I'd pull them out of the class. Now, if something came up that really did seem inappropriate I'd press them to change the class but you've not relayed any info that would indicate that was needed IMO. Kids mature at different rates and what one kid is ready for another kid is not but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the wrong.

[JustEm]

I don't particularly find the dog humping the neighbor inappropriate for middle schoolers. Dog humping is a dominance thing and generally isn't a sexual thing at all. If your boys really felt uncomfortable with that I'd think they are too sensitive for the topic at hand.

[Happy2BaMom]

You're not comfortable with what is occurring. Neither are your boys. 

 

I think it's really important to not dismiss that. And (IMHO) no one else is going to be able to judge whether or not the class is appropriate or not (that's usually a continuum anyway, barring something illegal, and judgments on "appropriate" are going to vary widely between people).

 

But you're not comfortable. No matter how much you discuss it here & try to get input (not that I'm criticizing that...it just may not help you resolve the situation so you can be at peace about it). I think YOU need more information from the source - meet face-to-face with the pastor and possibly sit for an hour or two looking through the materials. It seems to me you don't have the information necessary to resolve it one way or another, and so you end up on a forum with people offering opinions on dog-humping videos. Which probably makes this one of the more interesting threads on this forum. (said with a smile)

[justasque]

I think you are right to follow up on this, as you have promised your sons you would.  

I wonder how the lessons are being portrayed. That is, what are the intentional and unintentional lessons being taught?  And how do they align with what you want your boys to learn about sex and sexuality?  How are these stories informing and shaping the young men they are becoming?  As an example, is rape portrayed as "just something that happens", or is it portrayed as a horrible, violent act against the victim?    If the students are too young to handle the horror, then the lesson is better left until they are old enough to fully understand.  This isn't about the graphic details, which need not be dwelt on, but more about the goals of the lesson - who are these people, why did they behave as they did, and what can we learn from this story that we can apply in real life?  How does this story help us to understand how to behave ourselves?  How should we treat those of the opposite sex?  How should we handle being in positions of power and responsibility? How are modern times different, in terms of expected behavior around slavery, forced marriage, concubines, etc.  And so on.  Perhaps it is in these areas that your boys are sensing something not quite right with the lessons.

 

[PeppermintPattie]

Well which books in the Old Testament are they studying? It comes up over and over. You were referring to specific things she indicated as red flags and it made no sense to me, as the kids were the ones bringing it deeper according to how it was written. If it was the pastor belaboring detailed points in a crude fashion, instead of trying to get them to understand what was actually going on with, say, Bathsheba or the priests of Moloch, I’d be more concerned.

 

Since she says that the pastor is the one bringing it up repeatedly, that sounds different to me than a series of stories in which sex comes  again and again. Maybe it's in how one reads the OP's posts.

[Storygirl]

Thank you for your thoughts. It's helpful to be able to think and talk through these kind of issues.

 

We heard back from the pastor yesterday, though we had to prompt him for a response. I think he considered his original message to me to be enough, but we really needed him to respond to my follow-up questions and concerns.

 

Our big concern was trying to figure out whether the teaching has been appropriate. Obviously these incidents happened in the Bible, and they are discussing the first few books of the OT, where many of these stories can be found, so it's going to come up.

 

We asked the pastor if he could send all of the parents in the class an overview of what they are discussing, so that parents can be informed and can either follow up with their children or prepare them ahead of time if uncomfortable topics will be included in the lesson. The pastor acknowledged our concerns and agreed that this would be helpful, so he plans to do that, going forward.

 

Up to this point, the pastor has communicated with parents zero times about the content of the class. No syllabus. No homework coming home. No overview at the beginning of the year about what would be covered. So I think this will benefit the class as a whole, and is more in line with what the other teachers at the school do.

 

Since we will know ahead of time what the class will cover, we will hopefully be able to help our boys navigate their responses to the material, and it will hopefully help us gauge whether the pastor is teaching in an appropriate way.

[Shellydon]

You need to sit in the class, everyday, for 2-3 weeks and see what is actually happening  before you do anything else.

[EMS83]

I think I'd like all the material that has already been covered, as well. 

[Lecka]

My son bumped up into middle school Sunday school in 5th grade with one other boy, because they were the only 5th graders.

 

But the middle school kids ran old.

 

Me and the other mom both ended up taking our kids out, because they just weren't comfortable.

 

There turned out to be a big gap between the ages.

 

It turned out to be older kids discussing the military in a way our kids didn't like, the older kids were saying edgy things and our kids didn't like it and didn't want to debate older kids.

 

Edit: I think your plan is good! You can decide based on the planned topics. I think you have that right as a parent for sure.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Lecka

[TravelingChris]

I think the problem may very well be that the pastor is just going through one of the sections that has a lot of sexual matters.  I know the Bible doesn't use the term of idols of sex and what not but rewording to make it more understandable what some of those idols were and lightly say that sex was involved in the worship practices of that idol. My kids were exposed to Judges at the same age or a bit younger,  I taught at home just going through parts of the Bible.  I do not think middle school is too young to actually be studying the Bible.  I think too often Sunday schools and Bible classes dumb things down too long.  But the specific comfort level with kids in this larger age span could be making some kids uncomfortable.  I totally understand about wanting to trust your kids.  But if you are keeping them in this school and he is the teacher, is figuring out whether your boys are overly sensitive due to their personal experiences this past year and just tell them to not go alone with him.  Without more investigation from you, it really is difficult to know what they are finding uncomfortable. I really believe in instinctive feelings but also totally believe in kids that age maybe being uncomfortable about any mention of sex and in particular in a co-ed class with such an age range. Without more info, you can't know which it is.