How much is too much?

[Alte Veste Academy]

OK, I should probably start a new thread for this. Maybe I will. For now, I just want to highlight...

 

I love the BTDT voices.

 

...to say :iagree:.

 

I always benefit from reading the BTDT. Always. It is obviously, undeniably beneficial. Where would I be if not for the fabulous advice of those who have gone before me? Perish the thought! But sometimes we also benefit immensely from the RTWYDTN (right there with you doing that now). :tongue_smilie:

 

Sometimes the way the BTDT advice is put out there (for example, in direct response to a RTWYDTN post) seems to translate as, "Whatever you do, don't listen to that. It's so naive, so not BTDT. If only that poster knew better. I will educate her. She seems too confident about what she's saying." :lol: We are all responding with what we've got, but that is typically evident from the context of our kids' ages, our curriculum choices, our posting history, etc. I think most of us can sort the wheat from the chaff, especially since one woman's wheat is another woman's chaff. ;)

 

Before anyone points out that discourse is important for learning, I get that. Of course it is. However, it is only fair and appropriate to recognize that even those who have BTDT have only BTDT with their own personal set of circumstances. Just as their experience might not match that of the person they are addressing, the future experiences of the person they are addressing might not ever match that of the BTDT.

 

There is not one path, one universal experience. There are countless valid paths and BTDT experience isn't always going to play out simply given more time and experience. We still read through it all though, because some of it resonates. Some of it is our own particular type of wheat and was worth reading through some chaff to reap. For what it's worth, there is a lot of wheat in this thread for me. :D

[happycc]

I keep seeing this and have no idea what that means....

[Mrs Twain]

I look at it like this, too: Education IS character training, it IS the transmission of culture. How you educate IS honing and shaping your kids. Hard work isn't really fun, per se, but proficiency and attaining mastery IS satisfying on a much deeper level than fun. I have a 15 yo friend who is plays first chair violin in a regional orchestra- she gets up early to practice for 2 hrs before getting to her "regular" schedule. Is it "fun"?- she doesn't use that word. She uses the words "passion" and "joy". My kids have FUN-lots of it- they are so tan this summer from friends/swimming, adults haven't even recognized them, but I also think it can be over rated.

 

I have expected much more from my younger kids re: time on seat work than my older ones. I have not caved as much too passive aggressive, non-compliant, "it all has to be fun" attitudes/beliefs. (Which I heard from my kids but also other homeschooling Moms Non-STOP- which, of course, my kids heard....). I was too worried about "getting it right" (we have homeschooled for 22 years so we started back when there was a LOT of pressure. My older kids ARE educated, no doubt, but one in particular also struggles with entitlement re: education/"performance" (for lack of a better word). (Both older girls LOVE to learn, and are autodidacts) but as far as hitting external standards- she just doesn’t believe she should have to so much.

 

I have taken a much more neo-classical approach with my younger 3 (using an external standard) and I think we have served them MUCH better academically AND emotionally.

 

My kids are very focused 3 1/2 days a week- they do English, Latin, history, math, science, memory work on those days and then the days we are not home, they are doing other things. They are doing seat work for 4-6 hrs on those day- plus read-alouds and projects. They read for hours, and have lots of time to hang out as well, participate in camps, and extra curriculars. They are not deprived for doing that amount of work.

 

Re: Lit analysis- if you have someone drilling the kids and killing the joy of understanding lit, of course, it's going to be overkill. If you have someone using Socratic questioning and engaging the kids frontal lobe- kids dig that- where's the overkill? They are learning to use their brain- it's like learning to ride a bike- of course it's challenging, but once they "get it" it's a blast.

 

I was always a voracious reader, but it wasn't until I really got into lit analysis as an adult that I went from being a passive consumer of words "Oh, that was a good book..... (cricket)" to "that was a good book because the author spoke to this theme and delved into these issues and the protagonist was actually the antagonist too, which made it far more interesting...." it engages the mind of the reader in a whole different way.

 

From the 52 books/yr on-line stuff I've delved in to I have been shocked at how many people read hundreds of books of year- crap lit and have little to say about it- it's like diarrhea of words (which is a crude way to put it) but there is no critical thinking about content or what has been read. Really, I've been shocked. Dorothy Sayers says that teaching the masses to read without teaching them to think about it is actually dangerous because you've given a tool with out training. (Paraphrased).

 

RE: Reading, too. I agree with reading TONS- if you check out my blog you will see that we read and read and read and READ. My issue with focusing solely on reading to LEARN is that it is often an overview method of learning, not a mastery method of learning. Reading PLUS a timeline, PLUS memory work, PLUS note booking and even quizzes and tests cement the information even more solidly than JUST reading. Reading is input- requiring output from the student (Performance on some level) takes the learning to a deeper brain place than just gathering and consuming info.

 

:iagree: Great post.

 

Much of school is just plain hard, but that is okay. It is good to learn how to work hard. Medical school or other graduate programs are hard, too. Completing something like that is a long, hard slog and not the "joy in discovery" kind of learning. It is good to help kids learn self discipline, such as how to sit at a desk and complete the whole page of math problems even though it is difficult.

 

I don't know how many hours is ideal. My rising 4th grader will likely do 4.5 hours of academic work per day, but some of that includes hands on projects and me reading history books aloud to the kids. I plan my goals from the Core Knowledge K-8 Sequence as a baseline, and add other things onto it, such as memory work. It is good to have goals in mind and then figure out how to achieve them. If you decide that there are too many hours of school, maybe you can get the goals accomplished more efficiently by changing curricula or modifying your current programs.

 

If you want to give yourself a good feeling, just compare how many hours your kids are doing with the neighborhood kids in public school. The 3rd graders where I live spend 6.5 hours at school, additional time getting ready for and travelling to and from school, and 1-2 hours on weekday evenings doing homework. Even if we do 4.5-5 hours of academic work per day, my kids have far more free time than their peers.

 

Concerning lit analysis, I agree that covering it is important. However, we need not have them analyze every book they read, particularly at 5th grade. Furthermore, I think it may be equally effective to do most of the lit analysis as an oral activity rather than written. Something akin to a book club complete with snacks may make it far less painful.

 

Lastly, I don't do lit analysis on my all time favorite books. Narnia is an example. Oh, how those books are perfect for lit analysis, but ruining my kids' love for them would not be worth the gain.

[PeterPan]

I keep seeing this and have no idea what that means....

 

Beat the dog tirelessly.

 

Oh, sorry. :D It's "been there, done that."

 

And I just wanted to insert how amazed I've been at the great job some of the younger (not so veteran, hehe) posters on these boards are doing. Sometimes we get of the "things are going to pot" mentality, and actually I think they're building on our shoulders, just like we've built on the shoulders of those before us. They have access to things we didn't have too. Sometimes I think it frees them from doing the mundane stuff that we had to do (like inventing the wheel on spelling, ugh) and leaves them time to do some of these other things more creatively. Sort of like owning a dishwasher. :lol: So whatever. I'm just amazed by what I see in the younger posters on the boards. :D

[Amy Jo]

It's hard for me to identify 'academics' versus 'life'. Growing up I LOVED to read. I'd like to hear 8FillTheHeart expand on what she means by limiting - do you mean just assigned work, telling them to 'go outside' or 'go play with a friend', ???

 

Anyway, my goal with my rising/young 5th grader is 4-4.5 hours a day for his workboxes, which will include some assigned reading as well as Piano. I am planning an Afternoon Basket based on the Narnia books that will be about an hour for everyone. We have daily quiet time (they usually read) and I regularly kick them outside for hours (PE & nature study).My state requires 1,080 hours of instruction (6 hours X 180 days), so I feel like I have both the legal and the let-them-be-children aspect covered.

 

As to literature studies, I'm not sure. I'm trying out MP's lit guides, and they are too workbooky for us. I'll probably use them for discussion ideas & vocabulary, but rely more on CM's narration, copywork, & dictation to reinforce what we read. I do plan to buy Teaching the Classics when I have the funds - that will probably be our lit. analysis until they are old enough for LLfLOTR.

[FairProspects]

Beat the dog tirelessly.

 

Oh, sorry. :D It's "been there, done that."

 

And I just wanted to insert how amazed I've been at the great job some of the younger (not so veteran, hehe) posters on these boards are doing. Sometimes we get of the "things are going to pot" mentality, and actually I think they're building on our shoulders, just like we've built on the shoulders of those before us. They have access to things we didn't have too. Sometimes I think it frees them from doing the mundane stuff that we had to do (like inventing the wheel on spelling, ugh) and leaves them time to do some of these other things more creatively. Sort of like owning a dishwasher. :lol: So whatever. I'm just amazed by what I see in the younger posters on the boards. :D

 

Aww, thanks. :D We definitely are listening and learning from a lot of you.

[Chelli]

I keep seeing this and have no idea what that means....

 

It means "been there done that".

[Halcyon]

 

What is his attitude like? Is it improving or getting worse? It's the same as always. Happy to work hard, as long as I give him needed breaks when he seems to need them (he doesn't always recognize when he needs a break)

What is your relationship with him like? Is it getting closer or more distant? We have a good realtionship that is getting stronger, although he definitely has more "attitude" and back talking now that he is getting older. He knows there are limits to how much of this we will tolerate, and he is getting better at controlling himself.

What is his work ethic like? Is it getting stronger or weaker? Same as always. Strong.

Does he enjoy the challenges you put before him more or less than in previous years? Again, he is the same as he ever was, with perhaps the exception of Latin, whihc is getting REALLY tough. We just slow down and do oral review when that happens, which he really likes. (He likes to work one on one with me).

Does he challenge himself (whether in school or in outside activities)? I would say he does what he is asked, but doesn't take it upon himself to do too much outside of school...he pushes himself hard in hockey and sports, and worked very hard preparing for the NME which was at least 50% his own doing...he got a Gold and was proud.

When you select curricula and plan the schedule, are you factoring in his strengths and weaknesses, as viewed by him rather than through your own lens as mother/teacher? Good question. I just asked him what he thinks his academic strengths are and (he tends to downplay his skills) he reposnded "Ummm, I don't know...I like them all....I guess I am best at Math, Science and History...." :tongue_smilie:

How many choices do you give him? If something isn't working for him, we talk about it, change tack--he sometimes requests to do his latin declensions orally, and I usually agree, he loves listening to read-alouds and requests that all the time.

Are you asking him his opinion, his goals, his wishes, his dreams? He's still young, but he says he wants to go to a great college and have a job that leaves him enough free time to be with his kids. :D

 

 

This is thought-provoking.

[Halcyon]

This is the screwiest thing about this age (11+). They want SO MUCH to be independent, but then if you make them too independent they get all squirelly wanting time with you! :lol: I think that's why Kristin's post resonated with me, because she was reminding us to get some INTERACTION in and not just leave them slogging at desks by themselves all day in the name of school work. At least that's what I found compelling from it. It's that romantic side of homeschooling that is easy to get lost in the shuffle. Or better yet, you are commanded to speak NOW and discuss literature and what you think of this book because I gave you this time slot at this point in my day. Yeah. :lol:

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Halcyon]

Halcyon, it's obvious that your DS9 (is he still 9? 10 when?) is accelerated/advanced. One way to look at it is that you have free time built into your schedule just by virtue of the fact that he is working so far ahead. So, if you want to schedule x amount of time to get through a, b, and c this year, why not schedule .75x amount of time to get through a and b this year. Why not leave c for next year? Who knows. Maybe with a more relaxed pace, your DS will get reinvigorated and forge ahead with c on his own...or maybe find a d, e, or f that interests him.

 

 

AltevesteAcademy, he turns 10 in a week! He will be starting MM6 and AoPS in about a month, so he's accelerated there a bit. He's also a bit ahead in Writing, and certainly "ahead" in Latin if you consider he is using Henle successfully. I like your idea of removing something from my schedule to allow him to "find his passion" without me guiding the way.

 

I thought it might help to see what our plans are for hiim next year (5th). I am going to try and combine as much as possible (math and science, writing and history). It looks to be about 5 hours a day NOT including reading (usually 1-2 hours a day of assigned reading; I don't track their "fun" reading). So 9-12 and then 1-3 ish, sometimes 4.

 

Math: MM6 and AoPS Pre-A (1 hour)

Latin: Henle using MODG guide (1 hour)

Spanish (15 minutes)

Writing: WWS (he is up to Week 15) (45 min)

Grammar: KIss Grade 6 and Graded Lessons in English once a week for diagramming (20 min)

Reading: some guided lit, but also will let him "just read" the books I have for the year (1-2 hour)

Science: CPO LIfe. This will be time consuming, but I think he will like all the hands-on labs. (1 hour)

History: K12 Ancient History, timeline, narrations, projects, etc. (a la WTM approach) (1 1/2 hours twice a week)

Geography: Trail Guide in Coop (once every two weeks, plus some homework)

Artist Study: very relaxed, reading about artists (DH is an artist) doing some art with dad, watching videos. Nothing overly formal.

Piano weekly, hockey 2-3 times a week. Homeschool Fitness class once a week for 1 hour.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Halcyon

[PeterPan]

On the breaks thing, there is a term called "self-regulation" or that idea of being able to up-tempo, down-tempo, knowing how you feel, etc. Well I guess it's not really self-regulation, but you get the idea. I wouldn't put that responsibility on him if he's not really clicking with it. At least that's how it works in our house. There's actually a lot involved there to feel something, transition from something you're absorbed in, put those feelings into words, and cross the mom he wants to please. So at least for *us* I find it easier to use a timer (used to do it a lot when she was little, now just glance at the clock) and see what amount works on a good day. And honestly, I think sometimes it's nice to work consistently UNDER that by just a bit. Then they get used to feeling well when they work and keep that positive flow, kwim? Nothing says they have to work to exhaustion to do a good job. It's a balance I constantly work on, doing as much as she can without pushing *beyond* that point where it switches. And it's not something she necessarily does for herself, because it's a complicated task.

 

BTW, not to scare you, but it got more complicated this last year, where it just seemed like she was growing a lot and more hormonal and whatnot. Her brain sort of left the planet and I try to be extra careful. I really don't trust her to self-regulate and say she needs to stop. I actually tell her to stop and go to bed. In the middle of the day. It's interesting. :lol:

[Halcyon]

 

 

 

 

This, along with your comment about doing more hours of school than most people you know, makes me think even further that you and Halcyon might have different definitions of schoolwork. (I'm also going by what I've seen Halcyon post in the past)

 

 

 

You might be right. For us, we school from 9 am until 12:30 then lunch. Then again from 1 until 3 most days. About half that time I am doing hands on stuff with them or working directly WITH them. The other half he is doing his work independently.

[....]

 

Math: MM6 and AoPS Pre-A (1 hour)

Latin: Henle using MODG guide (1 hour)

Spanish (15 minutes)

Writing: WWS (he is up to Week 15) (45 min)

Grammar: KIss Grade 6 and Graded Lessons in English once a week for diagramming (20 min)

Reading: some guided lit, but also will let him "just read" the books I have for the year (1-2 hour)

Science: CPO LIfe. This will be time consuming, but I think he will like all the hands-on labs. (1 hour)

History: K12 Ancient History, timeline, narrations, projects, etc. (a la WTM approach) (1 1/2 hours twice a week)

Geography: Trail Guide in Coop (once every two weeks, plus some homework)

Artist Study: very relaxed, reading about artists (DH is an artist) doing some art with dad, watching videos. Nothing overly formal.

Piano weekly, hockey 2-3 times a week. Homeschool Fitness class once a week for 1 hour.

 

I think your schedule sounds fine. It looks very similar to our schedule. My daughter is a little older than your son. She turns 11 in Dec. We school year-round and I've lost all sense of grade level. Anyway, this is what she's doing (and some of the stuff we've been doing since January).

 

Math: Your Business Math & AOPS Pre-Algebra

Latin: Latin Prep

German

Writing: WWS

Grammar: MCT's LA

Reading: we came up with a booklist

Science: Apologia

History: mostly following WTM with a booklist

Religion: Journey thru the Bible

Art: Meet the Masters, some composer studies

 

Honestly, we've been going at this for awhile and it's fine. The only thing she is really struggling with is Writing with Skill. She doesn't like it and it's a challenge to get her to sit down with it. I do think she is becoming a great writer, though. I'm not ready to give up on the WWS, yet. It's a little dry, but it is VERY organized. I mean, I wish I would've been taught to write that way.

 

Besides the WWS, everything has been fine. We do have to make sure that we're giving them breaks, though. School for a few weeks and then give them some time off to pursue their interests. I'm going to add some unit studies in there for us this fall.

[Poke Salad Annie]

Sometimes the way the BTDT advice is put out there (for example, in direct response to a RTWYDTN post) seems to translate as, "Whatever you do, don't listen to that. It's so naive, so not BTDT. If only that poster knew better. I will educate her. She seems too confident about what she's saying." :lol: We are all responding with what we've got, but that is typically evident from the context of our kids' ages, our curriculum choices, our posting history, etc. I think most of us can sort the wheat from the chaff, especially since one woman's wheat is another woman's chaff. ;)

 

Before anyone points out that discourse is important for learning, I get that. Of course it is. However, it is only fair and appropriate to recognize that even those who have BTDT have only BTDT with their own personal set of circumstances. Just as their experience might not match that of the person they are addressing, the future experiences of the person they are addressing might not ever match that of the BTDT.

 

There is not one path, one universal experience. There are countless valid paths and BTDT experience isn't always going to play out simply given more time and experience. We still read through it all though, because some of it resonates.

 

Amen!

[Colleen in NS]

Just as their experience might not match that of the person they are addressing, the future experiences of the person they are addressing might not ever match that of the BTDT.

 

I don't know if you are including me in your address here, but what you said is exactly why I used the words I bolded below:

 

I think definitions of "schoolwork/seatwork" come into play in Halcyon's question. Most of what you wrote about is what I consider "life" and "on your own" learning.

 

However, for the student, adolescent hormones come into play at some point; sometimes along with clashes between what the parent thinks the student needs for the long-term and what the student wants in any given moment.

 

I was hoping those words/phrases would demonstrate that I know the same things won't happen to everyone, and that these are just my own opinions that are not meant to be translated the way you thought.

[RootAnn]

BTW, not to scare you, but it got more complicated this last year, where it just seemed like she was growing a lot and more hormonal and whatnot. Her brain sort of left the planet and I try to be extra careful. I really don't trust her to self-regulate and say she needs to stop. I actually tell her to stop and go to bed. In the middle of the day. It's interesting. :lol:

 

We started to see this with the oldest this spring. She didn't know what to do when I told her to go lay down for a bit. She was afraid she'd have to "make up" the work later that day. (Don't worry. She didn't. We'd just pick up where she left off the day before & go on. But, we certainly got "behind" where I wanted us to be.)

 

I know I haven't been careful enough. I'm capable of learning, though.

[Seshet]

I debated about responding to this thread, but finally decided I will. Though, my response won't likely be popular. Pretty much all the responses have been a less is more mentality, that proper balance between school time & time to just be a kid has to include a shorter school day. That really doesn't work for us, though, So, I thought I'd offer a perspective from the other side of things.

 

My kids do what most people consider to be too much school. By 2nd grade they were doing 5 - 5.5 hrs a day, 6 - 7 hrs a day by 3rd. However, this includes an hour of quiet reading time. It includes 2 hours of Science, History, or Geography/Cultural Studies, which could be spent on projects, reading, watching a documentary, or visiting sites online (games, research, etc.). It also includes stuff that they have asked to have added to their schooling. It is not all seat-work & only a portion involves textbooks & workbooks (especially in the lower grades)

 

My kids have mostly academic interests. They aren't into playing team sports or doing dance & theater. They're into reading, Science, History, Cultures, Art, Music, Chess, etc. They ask to have computer programming added as a class. They ask to have a year of Art focus on photography. They ask to do an extra Science or History course for the year, because one just isn't enough. They ask to add on additional foreign languages. They have asked to have many of their interests be included in their schooling, as added courses or as a focus in core subjects.

 

They still have time to play. They play with friends & neighborhood kids. They do sleepovers. They play on the computer. They play board games & card games. They ride their bikes and play outside. They watch tv & listen to music. My eldest texts, talks on the phone, and hangs out on FB. We do family game nights, family movies nights, go hiking, archery, and practice throwing knives. In other words, they still have time for all of their non-academic interests, and we make sure we expose them to new hobbies that might interest them. However, my kids are naturally very academically oriented. Our whole household is. We enjoy learning and are always looking for new things to learn about.

 

If I restricted the amount of time spent on school, not allowing them to add on the extra things they request, they would use most of their free time to study anyway. This morning, my eldest decided to work on school right after breakfast. It's a weekend, and we don't require school on weekends. This was entirely eldest's choice. After working on school for a few hours, eldest went to visit a friend. After lunch, eldest went around the neighborhood offering to walk dogs & do yard work to earn money.

 

My kids wouldn't do well with a shorter school day. They enjoy learning & reading. They ask for more. I won't refuse their love of learning or their interests in academic areas in some attempt to give them balance. This is who they are. I will not try to alter that. I feel that if I insisted they spend their free time doing less academic things, they would feel that I was trying to change who they are. I won't dictate what their interests can be by saying "No, we have to do less school and more normal kid stuff."

 

I'm not judging those who choose less school time or who think that balance between school & free time should be equal or weighted more toward free time. I'm not saying our way would work for everyone. I'm simply saying that this works for us. Our balance is weighted more toward academics. It still allows time for fun, friends, hobbies, and family time, and enables us to fulfill our intrinsic need for lots of learning & academics. Not everyone who has longer days, schools year-round, covers more subjects, etc. burns out.

[Farrar]

 

There is not one path, one universal experience. There are countless valid paths and BTDT experience isn't always going to play out simply given more time and experience. We still read through it all though, because some of it resonates. Some of it is our own particular type of wheat and was worth reading through some chaff to reap. For what it's worth, there is a lot of wheat in this thread for me. :D

 

:iagree:

 

Agreed not only with this post, but with your earlier post up thread. I'm appreciating a lot of the thoughts in this thread, actually.

[PhotoGal]

This is a great thread! It is really making me think.

 

I agree with tweaking the lit. guides to fit and not doing them for every book. My kids are younger, so keep that in mind. But I did use some lit. guides with ds last year for 2nd grade. I tweaked things to what would fit him. For example, he doesn't mind comprehension questions so I kept those in. I could tell he learned a lot from book discussions (similar to "Deconstructing Penguins) and I could practically see the gears turning in his mind. :D

 

However I also cut things out. So when the lit. guide wanted him to write a paragraph summary after every chapter in his journal, I just skipped it. I knew he would hate that (so would I!). We did work on paragraphs during the year and he has a good understanding there. We later tweaked an assignment that wanted him to write 3 paragraphs (I almost skipped this, but glad I didn't!). So I did it with him and wrote down his ideas, helped him organize, etc. It turned out really well and I could tell he got a lot out of it. He was very proud of it as well!

 

I also chose which books to go "deeper" in (Charlotte's Web, Poppy) and which books to just let him read with a tiny bit of discussion (How to Eat Fried Worms :D). I also tried to alternate between more serious books and more light-hearted ones.

 

Anyway, I guess what I am saying is you can do lit. guides without killing anyone's joy. It just depends on which guides you follow and how you do it. Remember in public school the teacher can not tweak it to fit each individual student, so the kids may be doing things that are easy busy-work (killing their joy) or way too hard for them (killing their joy). But since you are planning for one individual child, you can pick what challenges/engages him.

[foofoobunny]

Newbie here...

 

This us our first year homeschooling and I'm thinking my 3rd grader will do 3-4 hrs per day and my 5th grader will do 4-5 hours per day. We are very academic-oriented at our house and I feel that is roughly equal or possibly more instruction per day than they get in public school when you think of all the wasted time they have there.

 

I was getting overwhelmed with it all last week and my friend sent me a quote that went something like,"remember our ultimate goal is not to prepare a child for Harvard, but to prepare him or her to get to heaven."

[GoVanGogh]

I experiment each year with the new workload, I tweak every few months depending on a myriad of factors, I "read" my children depending on where they are in development, and I read here about people's experiences with their kids who are older than mine.

I was so glad to read the above quote.

I find myself tweaking our schedule ever few months, depending on the season (and outside commitments) and where DS is developmentally.

I find he can go months with a heavy academic schedule, then hit a spot developmentally where he just needs to "simmer" for a week or so. During those times, I tend to cut back on heavy academics and work on home ec projects or life skills. (This is generally when he is growing and needs extra sleep/food.)

Other times, he seems to be on fire. I also tend to cut back during those times, as that is when he wants to stay up until 2 a.m. to read his dad's old electronics books or whatever his passion is at that time. I think it all balances out at the end of the year.

 

 

SWB's audio on literary analysis was mentioned above. Love it.

I also wanted to recommend "A Few Things Well: Simplifying the Curriculum" by Bryan Smith, available through Circe. I listened to it last month and found it very enlightening.

 

 

 

As far as literary analysis, I was wondering about using a program, such as "Teaching the Classics" versus using lit workbooks. Thoughts?

My DS loves to talk about books all day long, which is why MCT has been such a hit at our house. He generally loves workbooks, but not for lit.

I am planning on using the above mentioned program next year, but bought/listened to the audio on "Paul Revere's Ride" with my son this week. DS enjoyed it. Myself? I took quite a few literature courses in college, but this $3 audio taught me more about literature than any of those classes did. I am still digesting some of what he said.

It has also made me rethink how I want to approach literature.

 

 

Well, i think my thinking has been affected because i watched The War on Children on Netflix streaming tonight where a ps teacher says that lit analysis (written, where there are directed questions, etc) kills students' love of books :glare: and this came right after i spent a good portion of the day planning out lit studeis for next year...........:smash: i mean, what is overkill, what is really "needed"? Is this goi g to make him hate reading?

Back to this question.

How do you do your lesson plans and schedule your year?

For us, we have six terms, each two months long. We school roughly six weeks on, two weeks off. I know what we can comfortably cover in that amount of time and go from there. If I have too much, then it is time for some serious pruning. :tongue_smilie:

I also like to leave some wiggle room in our schedule, as we like to take advantage of outside activities as they come up. Ex: we are in a book club at an art gallery. It only meets twice a year, but I need to allow time for reading two additional books. If I have us planned to the max, it stresses me out to get those books in.

 

 

Another question about lit analysis - how much can be done outside of school? We tend to use the Socratic method at odd times.

Ex: I try to tie some of literature to local plays/performances. We do talk about the book while reading it, but we love comparing the details of the book to the play on the way home from the theater.

Ex: We have a long bedtime ritual that involves DH and I both reading to DS, then DS reading to us. :tongue_smilie: It is very common for us, at bedtime, to get into long discussions like comparing Harry Potter to King Arthur. It is still lit analysis, but it is happening informally and outside of our school time.

I like that I can pull DH into our schooling this way and it is nice to have another perspective, since we are such a small homeschool.

[....]

I debated about responding to this thread, but finally decided I will. Though, my response won't likely be popular. Pretty much all the responses have been a less is more mentality, that proper balance between school time & time to just be a kid has to include a shorter school day. That really doesn't work for us, though, So, I thought I'd offer a perspective from the other side of things.

 

Yeah, it really depends on each kid, too. My 5th grader does wonderful with a WTM schedule, free time and independent work. She's very capable, cooperative, etc. My 4th grade son needs to be on a schedule and watched like a hawk or he will spend the Entire. Day. on Youtube watching videos of *other people* playing video games (I kid you not). And then...you have my 7 yro. Classical education is probably never going to work for her. I ended up buying stuff for the 3 Rs and Five in a Row. So, the 7 yro is going to do FIAR with the 4 yro.

 

It's hard to balance things when you have many different personalities at play.

 

Oh, well. :tongue_smilie:

[TheApprentice]

For my 4th grader, It looks like it will take between 3 1/2 - 4 hours. For my 7th grader it's going to be around 5 hours. Of course this is without the whining, complaining and fussing.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

 

 

 

As far as literary analysis, I was wondering about using a program, such as "Teaching the Classics" versus using lit workbooks. Thoughts?

My DS loves to talk about books all day long, which is why MCT has been such a hit at our house. He generally loves workbooks, but not for lit.

I am planning on using the above mentioned program next year, but bought/listened to the audio on "Paul Revere's Ride" with my son this week. DS enjoyed it. Myself? I took quite a few literature courses in college, but this $3 audio taught me more about literature than any of those classes did. I am still digesting some of what he said.

It has also made me rethink how I want to approach literature.

 

 

 

 

Any links to Paul's Revere's Ride?:001_smile:

[GoVanGogh]

Any links to Paul's Revere's Ride?:001_smile:

http://centerforlit.com/Conventions/Audio.aspx

Third one down under "for purchase."

[m0mmaBuck]

My kids are not terribly academically-oriented. They are bright. They don't struggle with their school work. But neither of them would choose to read or follow some rabbit trail of academic interest over playing by themselves or with friends or riding their bikes or digging holes in the dirt.

 

That said, the 6 yo spends 2-3 hrs/day "doing school" (reading, writing and math daily, science and history on alternating days, music and art 1-2 times/wk, etc) while DS10 spends 5-6 hrs on his work. We start at 9 a.m. and if DD6 chooses to focus she is done by lunch. DS, on the other hand, is generally done by 3 p.m. which gives him and hour to himself before his PS school friends get home and start showing up at the house.

 

Every child varies, and mine tend to lean away from academics and toward the physical and social arenas.

[laughing lioness]

remember our ultimate goal is not to prepare a child for Harvard, but to prepare him or her to get to heaven."

 

:iagree:I agree that as parent's we are undertaking the job to prepare our kids for eternity. That being said, somewhere along the way we've lost the idea that education and academics are part of that training. Character training and academics USED to go hand in hand. Training your child to sit and finish the work WAS training their brain, will and soul.

 

I'm not saying this in response to folks on this thread; I'm saying I hear this over and over ad neauseum in the wider homesechooling community- "just let your kid have fun" "don't be so directive" "let them choose." "they need plenty of time to play." I agree that those things are necessary, but not sufficient, to do a truly adequate, and/or exceptional job.

The reality is that "education" looks like a lot of different things, as has already been pointed out on this thread, and includes physical, mental, social and spiritual training.

[8filltheheart]

It's hard for me to identify 'academics' versus 'life'. Growing up I LOVED to read. I'd like to hear 8FillTheHeart expand on what she means by limiting - do you mean just assigned work, telling them to 'go outside' or 'go play with a friend', ???

 

.

 

When I say limiting, I really mean exactly that......that they cannot take a certain class or add another academic topic to their already full schedules.

 

(Keep in mind that my kids have a huge influence on what they study and that I don't "tell" them what they are going to do. It is a collaborative effort w/my kids.) There are only so many hrs in a day.

 

So.....if they are going to do stuff w/friends, go rock climbing, play games w/the family (a huge part of our family life), go outside, develop hobbies (which dd has. She loves weaving.), etc........things outside of academics have to be given time. And for kids that really love doing what they are doing, they need to be guidance in finding balance and appropriate perspective.

 

FWIW, it doesn't mean that they never spend free-time pursuing academic-type interests. It means that I want them to keep it in the "interest" time-zone vs. taking it on as an academically driven one...in spare time and leisurely w/ no end-goal required..

 

I think this type of issue comes into play w/kids w/certain personalities and the way Halcyon describes her ds, it makes me wonder if his personality might be similar. (I have no idea.) They are very self-motivated and love to learn. They love challenges. They are also people pleasers and do not complain. It forces me to be far more diligent in monitoring their time than my kids that are more plodding, reluctant, and vocal.

 

I have no idea if any of that makes sense. Different families run their homeschools differently. Our school time is very structured and controlled in what we do daily. Academics are not go w/the flow on a daily basis here. So for families w/that type of approach, none of this probably does make sense.

Edited July 16, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart
too much info ;)

[Katy]

I haven't read all of the above posts, but our theory is this:

 

- reading is a love

- math is a skill

 

Most HS subjects can be broken down into skills

 

DH (engineer) strongly believes in Saxon - which is a bit drill and kill if you ask me, but when we first started looking into homeschooling the first theories we found were from the Robinson curriculum. The whole math is a language and must be practiced like music - until you are fluent and every problem you solve is easy, that even if it is dreadfully boring in the mean time, sometimes boredom is good for you because it teaches discipline theory really resonated with DH. So for something like that, or for other skills (swimming, martial arts), we require a set amount a day or week respectively. We do music practice, calisthenics, math, writing (copywork or an essay depending on age), and any language skills (spelling, latin), and skills first. Then reading.

 

Next we have a book list, similar to Robinson or AO, but with less fluff and more what I consider classics, even modern classics. Things with great stories that are fun, even if they're hard (though I have fluff in there too - Dr Suess and Judy Bloom). I've never had to assign a set length of time in there. As long as there are great stories, the kids generally want to read for 2-3 hours or more until they need a break. There have been a few objections to stories at the beginning, but they're more "Yes, Robinson Crusoe IS hard. Give it two chapters and if you still hate it, we'll talk about skipping it." So far, by the third chapter the kid is sucked into the story enough to love it.

 

I don't think I really started to love reading until I was exposed to some children's classics like Robinson Crusoe, Heidi, Secret Garden, and An Old Fashioned Girl (Alcott). I think "analyzing" stories (other than a 2 minute discussion about what the moral of the story was, did the child like that book? Would they like to read more from that author before the next book on the book list?) at early ages is a little premature. I do want them to be exposed to the building blocks of western literature (have a working knowledge of fairy tales, Shakespeare and the Bible - thank you, Beautiful Stories from Shakespeare), so they often pick references up in cartoons or aspects of daily life that they would otherwise miss, but it's not a discussion until later.

 

Around 10th grade I have assigned a book called How to Read Literature Like a Professor that discusses analysis a bit more deeply. It helped me quite a bit when I was in college.

 

One thing I might do is require at least an hour a day of reading, but then have a sort of a family book club. At night, pick a book you just LOVE, and take turns reading it aloud to each other. My family growing up did that after I stumbled upon a copy of The Princess Bride at the library, we still read aloud to each other as married adults when we get together, and we do that with our own families now. Read aloud and stop to discuss whenever you find something interesting. I highly recommend The Princess Bride to start. Add How to Read Literature Like a Professor as the 2nd or 3rd book. Then kids will find the information helpful and fascinating rather than tedious. That book is also why I loved the Harry Potter series. If I hadn't read the literature book first I wouldn't have liked it as much. If everyone is too tired to read, listening to audiobooks is good too - we loved the Harry Potter series audiobooks and another boy's series, I can't recall the name of the books but it was the Alex Rider series, a modern one about a boy being raised by his uncle who stumbles into being a child spy. Realistic about the way counter intelligence works? No. But a glamorous, fun story that might make any boy love to read again? Yes!

 

As far as extra projects go, if a kid is especially interested in something, we might make it a side project. This could be something like volcanos, art, anything they would like to know more about. This isn't generally an assignment as much as it is a bunch of play - we'll help them explore it as deeply as they want to, for as long as they want to. Luckily I'm artistic and DH is a science geek, so so far one of us has been able to help them with whatever they like. We tend to keep lists of things they might mention or have questions about and make sure we offer at least one book on the subject every time we go to the library.

 

It's not perfect or as academically disciplined as some people would like I think, but so far it's working for us.

[Mommy22alyns]

I've been wondering this same thing. We were doing maybe 4 hours last year, Becca a bit more than Sylvia. We're going to have to be done by 3:30 this year because Becca is on a gymnastics team 40 minutes away. I'm not sure when we should start; last year we were pretty laid back about it but for some reason I'm worried now.

[stripe]

I The whole math is a language and must be practiced like music - until you are fluent and every problem you solve is easy, that even if it is dreadfully boring in the mean time, sometimes boredom is good for you because it teaches discipline theory really resonated with DH.

 

I must confess that I don't see math in this way.

 

It's perhaps worth noting that professional mathematicians have been known to spend hours, days, months, and even decades on the same problem. I guess I don't value the correct solution over all else, and the idea of encouraging dreadful boredom in any subject does not resonate well with me.

 

The idea of cultivating skills,I think, is an interesting one.