Consumption of alcohol: Christian viewpoint

[katemary63]

I think this is problematic. First, while we're supposed to refrain from the *appearance* of sin, that doesn't mean it's ok to do something that looks like sin in private! If someone found out, that would look even worse!

 

But I also don't think that we should determine our morality by what people might think. Just as one person might think a Christian w/ a glass of wine at a restaurant is sinning, another might think that a Christian *w/out* a glass of wine at a restaurant is being self-righteous. It's just not a determining factor.

 

On the contrary, I'd hope that seeing a Christian w/ a glass of wine might open up an opportunity to talk about Jesus. The one who's not a Christian says, "Hey! I thought Christians couldn't drink!" The Christian says, "Jesus drank! Come sit down & let's talk more!"

 

There are times not to drink, sure. But I agree, the requirement to *never* drink is extra-Biblical, & I believe it turns more people *off* to the Gospel than *on.* Not that we need wine to sell Jesus, but that people who can see through the legalism won't be able to see the life.

 

:iagree:I agree so much with this. This has actually happened to a close friend of mine. He was a "drinking is sin" Christian for years. He is an elder at a southern Baptist church. He finally realized for himself that the no drinking this was silly. He started drinking wine with dinner when visiting he non Christian family. It opened up a series of discussions with his brother that led to his brother's salvation! Praise the Lord. Now, my friend feels that he HAD been like a pharisee all those years and that it had kept him from relating to his family in a way that they would respect. He is so glad to now be experiencing FREEDOM in Christ.

[Jenn in Mo]

We went through a similar situation several years back. I did a thorough study on alcohol and printed out a stack of pages of verses involving the word wine. Out of the stack, only a small handful of verses discussed anything with a negative connotation. Everything else mentioned it as worship and as a blessing. The verses that spoke specifically against were to not consuming TOO MUCH wine and that kings should not drink alcohol.

 

That said, I'm raising my boys to avoid it but leaving it as their decision. I am raising them to avoid it because I am raising them to be leaders. Not kings, per say, but leaders. My husband and I consume an occasional glass of wine.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Right now, at this moment in time, while you are getting ready to move overseas for a season, do you need/want to be joining into membership with a church that you have reservations about?

 

We have not been members of the church we attended for about seven years. We are in a season of attending a lot of military chapels, which do not have membership rolls (or official doctrine, but that is another thread). While we were in Germany, we would have loved to have joined the church but paying the German church tax was a requirement of membership (uh, no).

 

So I'm sort of wondering what you would get out of joining now, while you are preparing to go overseas? Are you thinking that you would get more emotional/prayer support while you are gone if you are members? Are you looking for a church to hold you accountable? Are you wanting to deepen your relationship and involvement with this church and membership seems the next step? I think if you think through these questions, it might help you decide if the alcohol topic is even one that you want to engage on a deep level.

[Heather in Neverland]

Right now, at this moment in time, while you are getting ready to move overseas for a season, do you need/want to be joining into membership with a church that you have reservations about?

 

We have not been members of the church we attended for about seven years. We are in a season of attending a lot of military chapels, which do not have membership rolls (or official doctrine, but that is another thread). While we were in Germany, we would have loved to have joined the church but paying the German church tax was a requirement of membership (uh, no).

 

So I'm sort of wondering what you would get out of joining now, while you are preparing to go overseas? Are you thinking that you would get more emotional/prayer support while you are gone if you are members? Are you looking for a church to hold you accountable? Are you wanting to deepen your relationship and involvement with this church and membership seems the next step? I think if you think through these questions, it might help you decide if the alcohol topic is even one that you want to engage on a deep level.

 

These are excellent questions. I think it just feels a little, i don't know, unsettling to go overseas with no home church back here. Yeah, I guess the prayer and emotional support is part of it (not financial support, it is a salaried position). Perhaps we should forego the membership until we get back...if we come back. :D

[Peek a Boo]

This has actually happened to a close friend of mine. He was a "drinking is sin" Christian for years. He is an elder at a southern Baptist church. He finally realized for himself that the no drinking this was silly. He started drinking wine with dinner when visiting he non Christian family. It opened up a series of discussions with his brother that led to his brother's salvation! Praise the Lord.

 

I would tread carefully with this line of thinking tho:

 

if a man commits adultery, divorces his wife, marries his mistress, and they become saved together, that doesn't make the adultery a legitimate sinless issue. ;)

 

but i do agree that the freedom in Christ is great :D

[Retired]

Luke 1: 15

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb.

 

This is referring to John the Baptist.

 

There are many holiness preaching churches that use the Scripture as there reason to abstain from alcohol

 

They want to be seen as great in the Lords sight. They want to walk in holiness under the full guidance of the Holy spirit.

 

Alcohol opens you consciousness to act on sinful impulse and evil influences/spirits.

 

I though I would offer another reason a church may require their leadership abstain from alcohol.

 

This was the teaching of the Nazarene church and many other holiness churches I have attended.

[katemary63]

I would tread carefully with this line of thinking tho:

 

if a man commits adultery, divorces his wife, marries his mistress, and they become saved together, that doesn't make the adultery a legitimate sinless issue. ;)

 

but i do agree that the freedom in Christ is great :D

 

Yes, I see what you are saying, but this is not what happened here at all. He feels like he BEHAVED self rightiously with his family. It was probably HIS attitude that kept them at a distance. But when he came off his high horse so to speek and just relaxed and enjoyed a glass of wine with his brother - they TALKED. No sin was involved. His brother could see the change in him and was willing to listen to him for the first time.

[linders]

First, I've really appreciated reading this thread - I have found myself speechless on more than one occassion when an acquaintance has chastised me for having a glass of wine. Her church forbids it as a sin.

 

But to your issue - if the church teaches this, could you end up in a position where your children start criticizing your choice to have a glass of wine because of what they were taught in Sunday School? It might be something to consider.

 

Personally, after the anecdote about the pastor's wife, I'd run the other way.

[Peek a Boo]

Yes, I see what you are saying, but this is not what happened here at all. He feels like he BEHAVED self rightiously with his family. It was probably HIS attitude that kept them at a distance. But when he came off his high horse so to speek and just relaxed and enjoyed a glass of wine with his brother - they TALKED. No sin was involved. His brother could see the change in him and was willing to listen to him for the first time.

 

I understand your reasoning, but if indeed many people are assuming that drinking alcohol is NOT sinful when in reality [maybe] God sees it as a sin [based on the scriptural and secular evidence in the link i shared], then the drinking would be as sinful as adultery. or lying. or any other sinful action done in ignorance or reasoned away as "not sinful."

 

It is easy enough to stop acting self righteous w/o resorting to drinking alcohol. ;)

[Nestof3]

I would not join unless they could convince you Biblically of the position. I would encourage you to read the chapters at the link I offered, if for no other reason than I can't find a single person that is willing to actually READ it!! everyone else reads like the first chapter and decides their mind is already made up.....

 

but like someone else mentioned, i have a thing against "official" memberships too.

 

Feel free to do at-home Bible studies, Sunday afternoon luncheons at your place or some restaurant, and backyard VBS weeks....and invite teh families you know. ;)

 

eta:

and yeah- that disobedient wife thing is kinda creepy. Ask him what he's done to submit to HER lately. LOL!

 

Yeah, I didn't even want to touch the "membership" thing either. Show me THAT in the Bible. Condemn a glass of wine which is permissible in the Bible but require membership which isn't.

[1bassoon]

I once turned down a teaching job with a Christian school in part because they required their teachers not to drink. I went around with the principal a little on this and then just decided that it was an indication that this school and I would not be a terribly good fit.

 

My dh has had to face this very issue. We do not believe that consuming alcohol is a sin - only drinking to excess or unhealthy attitudes toward alcohol are. However, my dh's last job was at a Christian school that had as part of its employee contract that school employees would not consume alcohol.

 

This is the only context in which we have had to deal with this issue.

 

My dh's former Christian school asked he not drink alcohol in public. No comment was made about our private home, and on holidays he enjoyed a glass of wine. It did have to do with the appearance of evil issue. For the record, he was also asked not to criticize other church's theology (e.g. speaking in tongues) in the classroom.

 

To join a church that required it? Um. No.

 

Why don't they make you sign a statement that you will never gossip? Or be gluttonous? Or provoke your children to anger? Etc.?

 

What does your dh think?

[Danestress]

 

Also, the pastor told us a story about his wife wanting to use beer on the lawn as fertilizer (apparently she read somewhere that this works) and he said NO. He told her never to buy beer for ANY reason EVER. Well, she did it anyways and it didn't work. The lawn was actually worse. He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

 

 

 

Even apart from the beer issue, ick, double ick, triple ick.

 

I just hate the whole idea of telling a group of people about "the time my wife disobeyed me and fell into sin." I wouldn't use young children in a public example like that, let alone a wife. Maybe my dog.

 

Ick.

 

To answer your question, DH and I attended a Southern Baptist church that we absolutely totally loved for a couple of years when we lived in a town without a viable Anglican option. They had a policy like that. I didn't love that policy, but I loved the church and loved the pastor and didn't want a leadership position anyway. I am a drinker, but I think that reasonable people can study scripture to exhaustion and not all agree on this issue, so it's one that should be left to individual conscience, in my personal opinion. But we loved the church and just worked with it (we didn't join).

 

But whether you join or not, the people in this church who love you and who are prayers will pray for you and give you moral support and accountability when you are abroad, whether you are official members or not. I doubt they will even know. We worshiped at our SBC for several years and no one in a Sunday School or small group was particular concerned about whether we were members.

[Kelli in TN]

 

My bigger issue would be the membership covenant. If you have ever done a study on Biblical covenants, you may also be leery about entering into one. When God or any other person in the Bible cut a covenant, it was serious business involving the shedding of blood, the exchange of promises, and often even the calling down of curses upon those who broke the covenant. Think about it - your marriage is a covenant, your salvation relationship with God is as a covenant - would you really put church membership in the same category? Personally, I would not. Just my own thoughts... We have gone through membership classes only to back out when presented with a covenant on the last day of class. We can be committed members of a local body without such an agreement.

Okay, you have officially freaked me out now.

 

I am struggling with an issue in my life, in my church, involving a leadership covenant, and it is called a covenant, that I no longer wish to be bound to.

 

Am I calling down curses on myself? How does one disengage oneself from something they should not have signed in the first place?

[Peek a Boo]

Okay, you have officially freaked me out now.

 

I am struggling with an issue in my life, in my church, involving a leadership covenant, and it is called a covenant, that I no longer wish to be bound to.

 

Am I calling down curses on myself? How does one disengage oneself from something they should not have signed in the first place?

 

This is where freedom in Christ kicks in :)

 

If you feel you truly are in a position that is destructive to your walk w/ Christ, you have a duty to extricate yourself from it. Put it on Christ's shoulders and let Him deal with it --that's what He does best!

 

It is impossible for us to do everything correctly. Just be as non-combative, kind, matter-of-fact, and peaceful as possible while you make the transition.

 

Good luck!

[keptwoman]

These responses have been very helpful. I've been berating myself over this...like what's the big deal? So I don't drink any more, so what? But it just feels....ummmm....wrong. My family and friends sometimes have a drink when we are out. Should I "frown" on that now? It just feels like if I am going to sign a covenant about it, then I should feel very strongly about it and I don't.

 

Also, the pastor told us a story about his wife wanting to use beer on the lawn as fertilizer (apparently she read somewhere that this works) and he said NO. He told her never to buy beer for ANY reason EVER. Well, she did it anyways and it didn't work. The lawn was actually worse. He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

Up until now I have agreed with pretty much every word out of his mouth in his sermons but that one threw me for a loop.

 

Jumping in here and missing pages so sorry if this has been covered.

I am not a Christian but I was brought up in the Salvation Army and drinking was not allowed.

 

I do understand this pastors order to his wife not to even buy alcohol. As the leader of a church who forbids alcohol it doesn't look good when your wife is out buying it. People will judge that unfairly and unwisely. It's silly but that's people and gossip for you.

 

I don't believe that a church asking you to do this is adding to scriptures but they are adding standards they expect of members of their congregation. The Salvation Army used to have an option for membership as an "adherent" rather than a Soldier and the adherancy membership did not have the alchohol requirement. Does this church have anything like that?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

These are excellent questions. I think it just feels a little, i don't know, unsettling to go overseas with no home church back here. Yeah, I guess the prayer and emotional support is part of it (not financial support, it is a salaried position). Perhaps we should forego the membership until we get back...if we come back. :D

 

I do sort of understand the feeling that you are stepping out into the unknown and that it is comforting to have a lifeline to back home. We are still members of the church that we last attended in 2001. In fact dh was able to go to a couple services there before Thanksgiving when he was in the area. He said that it felt really good and comfortable being back.

 

But we've also made incredible friendships in other venues. And there is at least one other church and a parachurch group that I would also call a heart home church.

 

It just sort of seems like you're picking a fight that you don't need to. It sounds like this church has been a nice wellspring for your family. Ask them to pray for you as you head out. They will probably be thrilled to hear from you and to see you if you are back visiting. But maybe you don't need to get into the issue of drinking, stir things up and then leave. Just let it rest for right now.

 

However, to put my thoughts into context, I think fellowship is more of a heart issue than a sign the paper issue. I think many churches have members who add little but strife and non-members who are blessings from sunrise to sunset. If I were feeling troublesome, I might even ask where the biblical basis for bylaws, written doctrine in addition to the Bible and membership committees were in the first place. These are manmade institutions in place to control the sinful tendencies of redemed but fallen men, not God ordained requirements (IMHO).

[Alice]

I agree with most of the other posters. I wouldn't join or sign the covenant if I didn't agree with parts of it. I don't personally drink alcohol as my mom was an alcoholic along with many other members of her family and I don't trust my genetics. Dh is Asian and gets sick after a tiny bit of alcohol so he doesn't drink either. But many of our friends do and I don't see it as sin.

 

On the "home church" issue we have very close friends that have been attending our church for over 10 years. They are not members because they don't believe in "joining" a church. There are other things in the church I know they disagree with (infant baptism and paedocommunion). I think most people in the church have no idea that they aren't officially "members"...we know because we've been friends with them so long but it's not like it's an issue. But even without being official members the church is their church. If you have met close friends at this church I'd bet they will be praying for you and supporting you regardless of your official membership status.

[Karen sn]

I would tread carefully with this line of thinking tho:

 

if a man commits adultery, divorces his wife, marries his mistress, and they become saved together, that doesn't make the adultery a legitimate sinless issue. ;)

 

but i do agree that the freedom in Christ is great :D

 

A glass of wine is not a mistress. And Jesus turned the water into wine anyway, so it can't be that much a big deal.

[Peek a Boo]

A glass of wine is not a mistress. And Jesus turned the water into wine anyway, so it can't be that much a big deal.

 

you obviously have not read the link i shared.

[momofkhm]

My personal feeling is that it is not a sin to drink. I understand from a friend, whom I admire and respect greatly, that her church (which also believes you shouldn't drink) believes that the wine in the Bible was nothing like the wine we have today. It was more like grape juice. Sorry, I don't buy it. They got drunk in the Bible. Maybe it took a lot more to get drunk, but they did it. (1)Noah got drunk, that's when his son looked on him. (2) When Jesus turning the water into wine, we hear that most people served the best wine first and save the lower quality to stuff for later. (3) Paul admonishes a group for getting together for communion and fellowship but instead getting drunk. So sorry, it's not grape juice. It may not be as strong as our alcohol today but it was alcohol.

 

That being said, it's not a sin to drink. Why would Jesus have turned water into wine if it was? If Noah got drunk then there was obviously alcohol that far back. Why didn't God forbid alcohol in the 10 Commandments? Paul admonished this group for getting drunk, not for having alcohol. If it was a sin, why not put a stop to it then? Getting drunk may be a sin, but drinking alcohol is not.

[Peek a Boo]

... believes that the wine in the Bible was nothing like the wine we have today. It was more like grape juice. Sorry, I don't buy it. They got drunk in the Bible. Maybe it took a lot more to get drunk, but they did it. (1)Noah got drunk, that's when his son looked on him. (2) When Jesus turning the water into wine, we hear that most people served the best wine first and save the lower quality to stuff for later. (3) Paul admonishes a group for getting together for communion and fellowship but instead getting drunk. So sorry, it's not grape juice. It may not be as strong as our alcohol today but it was alcohol.

 

... Why would Jesus have turned water into wine if it was? If Noah got drunk then there was obviously alcohol that far back. Why didn't God forbid alcohol in the 10 Commandments? Paul admonished this group for getting drunk, not for having alcohol. If it was a sin, why not put a stop to it then? Getting drunk may be a sin, but drinking alcohol is not.

 

all those questions are answered pretty fully in the link i shared.

[Dooley]

In terms of the membership issue, here is my POV (dont know if its been said yet). We have always been part of Calvary Chapel, which has never been a membership kind of church. We found out the downside to that is lack of accountability - accountability of the pastor TO the church. If no one has a say (which, when you are a member, you get to vote on stuff, check financials and whatnot), the pastor, if he is inclined (a lot are, so sad to say), can do whatever he wants and it becomes a weird dictatorship. I know these may be strong words, but we have dealt with several unhealthy situations that may have been avoided has there been membership with a say.

 

KWIM??

[MyThreeSons]

I grew up in a home where alcohol was consumed on a daily basis -- mostly beer and wine, but all manner of hard liquor was available as well. I NEVER saw my parents, grandparents, other family, or friends drunk. It was never a big deal.

 

I don't consider the consumption of alcohol in and of itself a sin. My dh and I, however, both abused alcohol when we were young adults and have since stopped drinking altogether. We do not have alcohol in our home, but we have taught our sons that is our personal preference, not a condemnation of those who drink in moderation.

 

At our church, the men who serve as leaders make a commitment to not drink alcohol during their term of service. This is done because the consumption of alcohol can be a stumbling block to some members of the congregation.

 

In your situation, I would also be torn. I already don't drink, so that isn't the issue. I would talk to the pastor in detail about the thinking behind the vow. If I were convinced that it isn't a legalistic constraint, but rather a matter of preferring the weaker brother over myself, and I loved everything else about the church, I'd probably go for it.

[Jugglin'5]

all those questions are answered pretty fully in the link i shared.

 

I don't find it to be convincing. He ties himself into pretzel knots to make very strained arguments. Plus, I'm not inclined to find him credible based on some of his other writings and stances.

[PineFarmMom]

My own opinion is that it isn't a sin to drink, but getting drunk is spoken against Biblically. I don't drink. I chose not to some years ago and haven't since. My reasons have more to do with the lifestyle I feel God saved me from. It's my own personal conviction and I wouldn't hold anyone else to that, and I sure wouldn't sign a covenant over it, a covenant with other sinful people no less!! Oddly, I've been ridiculed and left out of a social activity within my church for that choice! It was funny because I never made a big deal of that choice to anyone and was always accepting of those who chose to drink. I blew the whole thing off and chose to be gracious about it...other people within the church defended me on it, but really!! I mean, come on! You're kinda #*$@ if you do and $#%^ if you don't sometimes.:lol:

 

Teresa

[momofkhm]

all those questions are answered pretty fully in the link i shared.

 

I posted without reading every reply. I'll go back and look at it.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Ok, Peek, I've read through about 3/4 of this stuff. Whew!

 

I concede the point that there has been there were a great variety of grape products and methods used to preserve them.

 

The argument against every passage about wine in the New Testament referring to wine actually referring to non-alcoholic wine seems to me to be just as full of assumptions as the argument for alcoholic wine. Considering the variety of grape drinks that seem to have been available, I don't know how anyone can pin down the exact type of drink that is referred to in each scripture, without the possibility of error.

 

I especially think there was a lot of assuming in argument about the passage contrasting John the Baptist and Jesus. So many assumptions, that one would need a "learned" person to interpret the passage's meaning, if they were not to believe that Jesus himself drank.

 

Also, I have not been convinced that drinking any alcoholic beverage of any kind, in any amount, at any time is a sin. I am only convinced that drunkenness is a sin, because scripture clearly states so. I find it difficult to believe that allowing an alcoholic beverage to pass our lips, without drunkenness, causes our relationship with God to suffer. How is alcohol inherently evil?

 

I did not see any references to the Proverbs that say God is responsible for "wine that gladdens the heart of man," or "give wine to those who are in anguish." There are other positive statements about wine in the Old Testament. Are they all to be assumed that those references are only about a particular kind of non-alcoholic grape product. That seems quite a stretch to me.

[Nestof3]

you obviously have not read the link i shared.

 

Honestly, I hesistate to because I don't feel we need some man's articles in order to understand some pretty simple bible reading. I have seen so many people have a conviction and try to squeeze and twist Bible verses tp support it -- instead of the other way around.

 

Paul gave restrictions on the use of alcohol -- he did not preach against it, and since one could get drunk with it, it leads one to clearly understand that he was speaking about alcoholic wine.

[Nestof3]

In terms of the membership issue, here is my POV (dont know if its been said yet). We have always been part of Calvary Chapel, which has never been a membership kind of church. We found out the downside to that is lack of accountability - accountability of the pastor TO the church. If no one has a say (which, when you are a member, you get to vote on stuff, check financials and whatnot), the pastor, if he is inclined (a lot are, so sad to say), can do whatever he wants and it becomes a weird dictatorship. I know these may be strong words, but we have dealt with several unhealthy situations that may have been avoided has there been membership with a say.

 

KWIM??

 

I understand what you're saying, but when you read the New Testament and the description of how the church operated, you will see no voting on issues, plenty of accountability, and no membership. There was also a plurality of elders (and no head pastor) to avoid the dictatorship issue. The elders were exhorted to not rule over but to be an example and to serve. A healthy body can function without membership, but if the body of Christ is not functioning properly, yes, there will be unhealthy situations. In many churches, people come together to listen to someone preach but they do not function or operate as the New Testament example. There's a whole lot of teaching, exhorting, encouraging, praying for, etc among all the members (limbs) of the body of Christ. Even the psalms, hymns and spiritual songs were meant to specifically exhort and encourage the body.

[Jami]

I don't find it to be convincing. He ties himself into pretzel knots to make very strained arguments. Plus' date=' I'm not inclined to find him credible based on some of his other writings and stances.[/quote']

 

:iagree:

 

He has to work awfully hard at making this argument. Why not accept the text at face value? He *wants* the text to say something that with a clear, simple reading it simply does not say.

[Free Indeed]

I have not read any of the other replies, but I would have a hard time signing that. I do not drink very often at all. However, I do not believe it is a sin to drink. I do believe it is a sin to be an alcoholic - the same as other addictions. I do believe that Jesus turned the water to wine, not grape juice.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I find that when moving overseas people do some strange things once the process of cutting ties to home becomes a reality.

 

As you head into the currently unknown you need something to hold on to from the past, something to tie you to home. This too is important.

 

Some folks do crazy stuff like pack 50 pairs of their favorite athletic socks just in case they can't get any or a case of rice because they won't be able to buy it (in China?)...

 

While it is hard to step into the unknown, perhaps it would be best to go into the unknown not being tethered to someone or someplace that gives you such reservations.

 

You are in the process of making a life change, this may not be the best time to come to a decision on something as important to you as scripture. Can you give the attention to the issue that it deserves?

 

Perhaps it is less about the biblical truths and more about your prospective comfort level with the group now that these issues are on the table.

[Heather in Neverland]

I find that when moving overseas people do some strange things once the process of cutting ties to home becomes a reality.

 

As you head into the currently unknown you need something to hold on to from the past, something to tie you to home. This too is important.

 

Some folks do crazy stuff like pack 50 pairs of their favorite athletic socks just in case they can't get any or a case of rice because they won't be able to buy it (in China?)...

 

While it is hard to step into the unknown, perhaps it would be best to go into the unknown not being tethered to someone or someplace that gives you such reservations.

 

You are in the process of making a life change, this may not be the best time to come to a decision on something as important to you as scripture. Can you give the attention to the issue that it deserves?

 

Perhaps it is less about the biblical truths and more about your prospective comfort level with the group now that these issues are on the table.

 

So I won't need 50 pairs of socks? I better take those back to Target. :lol: That cracked me up because this is my mindset lately...like I need to go to Sam's Club and stock up on everything to take with us. Part of me thinks I should be spenidng my mental energy on something else....like loading up my Kindle....instead of wrestling with church membership.

 

This is probably kind of sad, but it's like "membership" in churches has become sort of this status thing, ya know? Like there are "attenders" and then there are "members" and the members get to do all the cool stuff like teach Sunday school and lead bible studies. The attenders are just spectators. Maybe this is some kind of subconscious need I have to "belong". I don't know. But the more I think about it, the more membership at this church seems like a bad idea, at least for now.

[MyThreeSons]

;) I sometimes get tired of being part of the 20% of the people who do 80% of the work. ;)

 

He told us we are more than welcome to continue attending and not become members if we do not agree with this teaching. But if we are not members, we can never teach sunday school or a bible study or work in the nursery or in AWANA, etc. We can attend but no leadership positions.:glare:

[mommaduck]

So I won't need 50 pairs of socks? I better take those back to Target. :lol: That cracked me up because this is my mindset lately...like I need to go to Sam's Club and stock up on everything to take with us. Part of me thinks I should be spenidng my mental energy on something else....like loading up my Kindle....instead of wrestling with church membership.

 

This is probably kind of sad, but it's like "membership" in churches has become sort of this status thing, ya know? Like there are "attenders" and then there are "members" and the members get to do all the cool stuff like teach Sunday school and lead bible studies. The attenders are just spectators. Maybe this is some kind of subconscious need I have to "belong". I don't know. But the more I think about it, the more membership at this church seems like a bad idea, at least for now.

 

The reason why is that the authority in the church must be able to oversee what their teachers and staff are doing and be able to apply discipline where needed. They cannot do any of those things with non-members.

[Nestof3]

The reason why is that the authority in the church must be able to oversee what their teachers and staff are doing and be able to apply discipline where needed. They cannot do any of those things with non-members.

 

I'm sorry, that may be the teaching of a particular church, but the New Testament is pretty clear that all Christians may stand in a position to receive church discipline. 1 Corinthians 5 is a good example of this. There is never any distinction between member and non-member in the New Testament. There is a distinction between believer and non-believer only.

 

If you can point me to scripture that says otherwise, I honestly would like to study that.

[PinkInTheBlue]

I don't have a problem with an occasional drink or even a glass of wine every evening. I don't do it but I can't imagine the belief (personally) that anything would be wrong about it. I didn't believe it when I was in church every time the door was open. I have a problem with someone drinking to drunkenness but not having a drink.

 

I wouldn't sign the covenant and thereby not join the church. I agree with you that I would take signing something like that seriously but if I didn't agree with all of it, I just couldn't sign it. Other hand, I don't get forcing everyone to sign such a thing. That's just me. :)

 

Can you join attend the church regularly and when you come home? What does signing or not signing the document mean to you and your church attendance?

[PinkInTheBlue]

He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

Up until now I have agreed with pretty much every word out of his mouth in his sermons but that one threw me for a loop.

 

This is just me, but I'd run screaming from that church. :)

 

I hope you find a peace about what to do for your family.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So I won't need 50 pairs of socks? I better take those back to Target. :lol: That cracked me up because this is my mindset lately...like I need to go to Sam's Club and stock up on everything to take with us. Part of me thinks I should be spenidng my mental energy on something else....like loading up my Kindle....instead of wrestling with church membership.

 

This is probably kind of sad, but it's like "membership" in churches has become sort of this status thing, ya know? Like there are "attenders" and then there are "members" and the members get to do all the cool stuff like teach Sunday school and lead bible studies. The attenders are just spectators. Maybe this is some kind of subconscious need I have to "belong". I don't know. But the more I think about it, the more membership at this church seems like a bad idea, at least for now.

 

I wanted to pull out the topic of prepping for moving and things we do as coping mechanisms. I thought there might be some good comments from folks who might skip this thread.Spin off here.

[Spy Car]

Also, the pastor told us a story about his wife wanting to use beer on the lawn as fertilizer (apparently she read somewhere that this works) and he said NO. He told her never to buy beer for ANY reason EVER. Well, she did it anyways and it didn't work. The lawn was actually worse. He saw this as an example of what happens when a woman "falls into sin" by disobeying her husband and buying beer. :confused:

 

 

In my family we'd call that "falling into sin' by wasting good beer.

 

Yee-ha! :D

 

 

 

 

I joke :lol:

 

Bill (run...and don't look back)

[Blessedfamily]

Has anyone else had to sign an agreement to be a member of a church?

I've never heard of that, and would like to know the reasoning.

[mommaduck]

I'm sorry, that may be the teaching of a particular church, but the New Testament is pretty clear that all Christians may stand in a position to receive church discipline. 1 Corinthians 5 is a good example of this. There is never any distinction between member and non-member in the New Testament. There is a distinction between believer and non-believer only.

 

If you can point me to scripture that says otherwise, I honestly would like to study that.

 

I was referring to the modern church. The Roman Catholic Church has no business disciplining me if I'm not even under their authority, though I am a Christian, kwim? Same thing here. This is where "membership" has come to mean something. And why would someone hand over a leadership position to someone that was unwilling to place themselves as a member within that church? If you can't in good conscience join a church, then move along and find one that you can.

 

In my family we'd call that "falling into sin' by wasting good beer.

 

Yee-ha! :D

 

 

I joke :lol:

 

Bill (run...and don't look back)

 

So would us Reformed folk! One of the Reformers said that Gd blessed man with BEER. The first thing various Christians did upon arriving in America was build breweries, before churches, before anything else.

[Kelli in TN]

Has anyone else had to sign an agreement to be a member of a church?

I've never heard of that, and would like to know the reasoning.

 

Yep.

 

I had to sign a membership agreement. And THEN I had to sign a leadership covenant to be allowed to serve. I would like to undo the leadership agreement and be bumped back to membership only status.

 

I have had to sign a membership agreement at every church where I chose to be a member. I do not understand the point of it, to be honest.

[Blessedfamily]

Yep.

 

I had to sign a membership agreement. And THEN I had to sign a leadership covenant to be allowed to serve. I would like to undo the leadership agreement and be bumped back to membership only status.

 

I have had to sign a membership agreement at every church where I chose to be a member. I do not understand the point of it, to be honest.

 

Oh. Thanks. I've never heard of it. I mean, I guess they want to make sure you understand what they interpret the bible as saying, since people have differing opinions.

 

I've seen these issues covered in a membership and/or leadership class, and then the pastor asked the person if they agree to abide by church standards. No agreement signed, though.

[Heather in Neverland]

In my family we'd call that "falling into sin' by wasting good beer.

 

Yee-ha! :D

 

 

 

 

I joke :lol:

 

Bill (run...and don't look back)

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Nakia]

In my family we'd call that "falling into sin' by wasting good beer.

 

Yee-ha! :D

 

 

 

 

I joke :lol:

 

Bill (run...and don't look back)

 

Love it!! :D

[Blessedfamily]

As far as wine goes, I once saw a heated argument in church over whether to use wine or grape juice for communion.

[Spy Car]

So would us Reformed folk! One of the Reformers said that Gd blessed man with BEER. The first thing various Christians did upon arriving in America was build breweries, before churches, before anything else.

 

I'm gonna have to give the Dark Side a second look :D

 

Bill

[Heather in Neverland]

I'm gonna have to give the Dark Side a second look :D

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

[mommaduck]

I'm gonna have to give the Dark Side a second look :D

 

Bill

Come on, Bill...the Dark Side is calling...the Force, Bill, the Force :lol: