Christian Hair Question......

[Ginevra]

Dh was not angry but said her prefers it long.

 

Yeah, my dh prefers my hair long and he has preferences with the kids' hair, too. But I still think it's weird for teens/young adult girls to keep their hair long with that as the reason. I like for my husband to like my hair, but it's not essential and sometimes my hair has been styled otherwise.

 

The part I said seemed incestuous was the brother having a girlfriend and then wife whose hair looks (and whose overall appearance looks) just like his sisters. It's weird.

 

My husband has two lovely sisters and I wouldn't mind looking like either one of them, but hopefully, he considers me my own brand of pretty, know what I mean?

[stripe]

I am perfectly fine with people growing their hair, and I don't see why someone with hair is supposed to donate it to anyone else, anymore than someone with money is expected, as a matter of course, to give it all away every few years and start from scratch! I also don't see why those who has long hair so often should never cut it, not even to trim. I don't think that's healthy. I find the idea of needing to have long, flowy, curly hair to be the funniest of all, though. Not everyone has "flowy" or curly hair....much less both!

 

It may be cheaper in terms of maintenance to have long hair that is never cut, BUT let me assure you, there will be repercussions to the plumbing that will cost money to fix.

 

Actually I thought this thread was going to be about something else. I don't want to offend anyone, but based on some photos I've seen of Christian homeschoolers, there seems to be a certain unique hairstyle preference. That's what I imagined.

[Ginevra]

Actually I thought this thread was going to be about something else. I don't want to offend anyone, but based on some photos I've seen of Christian homeschoolers, there seems to be a certain unique hairstyle preference. That's what I imagined.

 

Now, you know you're going to have to spill! WHAT hairstyle is common among Christian homeschoolers? I'm wracking my brains and I'm comin' up empty. I'm a Christian homeschooler, but I'm positive my hair is not a certain or a unique style.

[stripe]

Not all Christian homeschoolers, by any stretch of the imagination!

 

I don't want to be insulting! I can't really link to photos, now can I? Something like - long, one length hair, parted down the middle, pulled back into a low ponytail, paired with a button-down shirt (utilitarian variety) or prairie style flouncy cotton dress (old-timey variety).

[OnTheBrink]

 

The part I said seemed incestuous was the brother having a girlfriend and then wife whose hair looks (and whose overall appearance looks) just like his sisters. It's weird.

 

 

 

I don't think it's uncommon for a guy to marry a gal similar in looks to his mother or sisters. My pastor's sons' wives (is that an appropriate usage of apostrophes?) are very different women, but you can definitely see similarities between them and my pastor's wife. I don't think it's incestuous, really; sometimes people gravitate toward what makes them comfortable or is familiar. (And, I always think Joshua's wife looks terrified. Not saying she should be; they seem to be a nice family. But she any time I've seen her on TV, she has that wide eyed, frozen look about her)

[asta]

There are denominations who believe a woman's hair is their crowning glory and therefore do not cut it.

 

But the Duggars have said the dad simply likes the long hair, so, they all have long hair. Now, if he 'likes' it for Biblical reasons, I have not heard mention of it. I have only heard/read that it is because Jim Bob *likes* the long hair. :)

 

I'll admit I haven't read the entire thread yet, so if this has already been stated, I apologize:

 

I can see Mr. Duggar "liking" his WIFE having long hair, but his daughters? Creepy.

 

 

a

[BMW]

Well... to stray from the topic of long hair... which didn't work out for me because mine falls out each time I bear a child, then I end up with layers of hair and it is stringy and NOT a glory....

 

We attended all of the Gothard seminar. The teachings were extremely legalistic. Teachings that women should do all things in a dress or skirt and that there is not time for a woman to not wear that clothing... if you are out milking a cow... just wear a skirt/dress that isn't the nicer one...

 

And if a wife is TOO sick to bear a child, she is TOO sick to have tea... if you know what "tea" means (activity which produces a child without some form of birth control... which is taught to be completely unbiblical).

 

These teachings took every dream in my very Christian heart and shattered them. I am a loving, devoted wife (to a new dh), a fairy decent mom (I have some struggles) and I LOVE my Jesus and God of the Holy Scriptures. And I do NOT believe that God means for women to suffer in the cold in dresses and skirts. I am a bit passionate in this area because as I mentioned, my dreams and goals for a family and Christian home were ruined from this man's teachings and my ex-husbands egotistical, female controlling natures. It goes far beyond hair.

 

I DO think that there are families that can follow these legalistic Christian, extra-biblical teachings and do okay... IF the man serves his wife with loving understanding and is a partner, not a dictator. And the wife gives respect and honor to the husband as the head of the home... but she still has a voice that is listened to, because she is a child of God. This would be great... but people fail... and men love power (some women do, too!)... BUT, too often this teaching leads to abuse and a devaluing of the wife/mom and it hurts the entire family.

 

Scriptures have been spoken here regarding what the Bible has to say about a woman's hair being her glory... that is all wonderful and I think long hair is very lovely. Mine is extra curly and sits on my shoulders and never grows long now.... That does not make me less Christian or devoted to the God of the holy scriptures. I will not wear a dress or skirt if it means I am going to be cold... and I get cold easily. Why would God want a woman to suffer being chilly or looking frumpy or over dressed or just "not right" (my opinion... picture sweatshirt, skirt, leggings, sox and lace up ankle boots... which I was required to wear by my ex... without question).

 

Anyway... my soapbox...

 

How about dealing with important things... like hungry families... children in need.... hurting hearts... people who don't know the salvation of Jesus...

???

[Kim in SouthGa]

Not all Christian homeschoolers, by any stretch of the imagination!

 

I don't want to be insulting! I can't really link to photos, now can I? Something like - long, one length hair, parted down the middle, pulled back into a low ponytail, paired with a button-down shirt (utilitarian variety) or prairie style flouncy cotton dress (old-timey variety).

 

 

I find this extremely strange and a little insulting, even though I'm sure the poster did not intend it to be. I belong to a large hs group (and have for 8 years in two different states) in which everyone is a Christian. There is such a variety in dress and hairstyles. Very odd that you could so specifically describe this. I don't think I know anyone who wears prairy style flouncy cotton skirts or dresses. Maybe this has more to do with where you live than the fact that they are Christians?

[Heather in Neverland]

My pastor is a former employee for Gothard himself and the long hair thing is a Gothard thing. My pastor's wife and his 4 daughters all have long hair.

[stripe]

I find this extremely strange and a little insulting, even though I'm sure the poster did not intend it to be. I belong to a large hs group (and have for 8 years in two different states) in which everyone is a Christian. There is such a variety in dress and hairstyles. Very odd that you could so specifically describe this. I don't think I know anyone who wears prairy style flouncy cotton skirts or dresses. Maybe this has more to do with where you live than the fact that they are Christians?

 

See? I didn't want to be insulting. At all! Maybe it's more of a practical / easy style thing.

 

I was just reading John Steinbeck's Travels with Charley, and he remarks that he wears a beard, because nowadays it's the only thing a man can consistently do better than a woman. ;) So there's one vote for beards for masculinity.

[TravelingChris]

I haven't seen any one style of hair or clothing in Christian homeschool groups? Why would I? We are not all of the same ethnicity, same economic circumstances, same preferences, etc. It has been years since I have seen large groups of jumper clad, pony tailed women. I meet homeschool moms at the soccer field here and almost all are wearing pants or shorts. I suppose if they are Gotharides, they wouldn't have joined homeschool soccer.

 

In Florida, most Christian homeschooling moms had shoulder length or shorter hair. There were lots of styles, though and really hardly any of the kind you describe. I think hair styles have more to do with local culture and climate. Florida was hot and we lived on an island. Here, it will be very muggy but is a much more formal place. Neither place is long hair the norm.

[DawnM]

Love the Duggars, would love to meet them someday. I am nothing like them. I watch TV, use birth control, wear pants, cut my hair, and sometimes even yell at my kids.

 

I was so offended at a Gothard Basic Youth Conflicts seminar that I walked out at age 13. His views on adoption are just plain STUPID. There, I said it. As an adoptee and as an adoptive Mom who firmly believes this child was born to be in our family, I am openly saying that he is wrong, wrong, wrong about the sins of the father placed on the child and you should be careful in adopting because you just don't know what those sins are. Jesus is far greater than some stupid sin of the father garbage.

 

Yes, I feel VERY strongly about the Gothard stuff (insert stronger word there!) and would never recommend it to anyone.

 

Dawn

[unsinkable]

I am perfectly fine with people growing their hair, and I don't see why someone with hair is supposed to donate it to anyone else, anymore than someone with money is expected, as a matter of course, to give it all away every few years and start from scratch! I also don't see why those who has long hair so often should never cut it, not even to trim. I don't think that's healthy. I find the idea of needing to have long, flowy, curly hair to be the funniest of all, though. Not everyone has "flowy" or curly hair....much less both!

 

It may be cheaper in terms of maintenance to have long hair that is never cut, BUT let me assure you, there will be repercussions to the plumbing that will cost money to fix.

 

Actually I thought this thread was going to be about something else. I don't want to offend anyone, but based on some photos I've seen of Christian homeschoolers, there seems to be a certain unique hairstyle preference. That's what I imagined.

 

My dd has waist length hair and is often told she should donate her hair. Usually she (we) smile and nod & say someday. Some older ladies (and it is always older ladies!) get nasty about it, almost vicious!

 

Recently, dd was getting it trimmed and another customer told her she should donate it. We smiled. Nodded. Said someday.

 

She started scolding us & called dd selfish, unkind. Told me to make her cut it. "People NEED that hair!" she said. Thank goodness the woman was almost done & left soon after. Her hairdresser said she was telling her how awful we were and that I was raising a selfish, selfish girl!

 

It was really uncomfortable, to say the least.

[mommaduck]

Love the Duggars, would love to meet them someday. I am nothing like them. I watch TV, use birth control, wear pants, cut my hair, and sometimes even yell at my kids.

 

I was so offended at a Gothard Basic Youth Conflicts seminar that I walked out at age 13. His views on adoption are just plain STUPID. There, I said it. As an adoptee and as an adoptive Mom who firmly believes this child was born to be in our family, I am openly saying that he is wrong, wrong, wrong about the sins of the father placed on the child and you should be careful in adopting because you just don't know what those sins are. Jesus is far greater than some stupid sin of the father garbage.

 

Yes, I feel VERY strongly about the Gothard stuff (insert stronger word there!) and would never recommend it to anyone.

 

Dawn

 

His views lead to emotional abandonment and abuse in adoptive children and by adoptive families. Ask me how I know...I was told that cr@p all my life.

[Ginevra]

And if a wife is TOO sick to bear a child, she is TOO sick to have tea... if you know what "tea" means (activity which produces a child without some form of birth control... which is taught to be completely unbiblical).

 

These teachings took every dream in my very Christian heart and shattered them. I am a loving, devoted wife (to a new dh), a fairy decent mom (I have some struggles) and I LOVE my Jesus and God of the Holy Scriptures. And I do NOT believe that God means for women to suffer in the cold in dresses and skirts. I am a bit passionate in this area because as I mentioned, my dreams and goals for a family and Christian home were ruined from this man's teachings and my ex-husbands egotistical, female controlling natures. It goes far beyond hair.

 

I am sorry you went through this. :grouphug: I definitely do not get the Gothard view. I am quite familiar with it; I knew about it back in the 70's when the pastor/principal of our Christian School continuously promoted that idiot's materials.

 

About the "too sick to make *tea*" view which Gothard espouses, this shows his ignorance all the more. There are many, many, many people who are not recommendable to carry additional pregnancies but that can *make tea* without difficulty. Like my friend, who suffered a uterine rupture and almost died. Or another who had a back injury that would not further support pregnancies. These friends adopted, which is wonderful. Although it would have been also fine for them to simply not have more kids. Gothard's view on adoption is *sickening*, completely disgusting and paranoid. God loves messed-up people, too, just as much as He loves people who come from "holy" lineage.

 

I would love to have or adopt more children, but my husband says no. Wonder what Gothard would say about that. I'm between a rock and a hard place and so I guess all I can do is accept what is and raise the children I have.

[TravelingChris]

I am confused about how the Gothard way is anything but a cultlike organization. As I understand, we are not supposed to add anything or subtract anything from scripture. He seems to be adding much and subtracting some of the most important points- In Christ, there is no Jew or Greek, no slave, etc. That means we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, on equal footing, not rejected because of our hair style, beard, adoption status, fertility status, etc., etc. What a unpleasant philosophy to tarnish the Good News of the Bible.

 

I am truly sorry that some of you have been hurt by this mangling of God's truth and hope it hasn't turned you from seeing the beauty of the Gospel message.

[Tabrett]

My dd has waist length hair and is often told she should donate her hair. Usually she (we) smile and nod & say someday. Some older ladies (and it is always older ladies!) get nasty about it, almost vicious!

 

Recently, dd was getting it trimmed and another customer told her she should donate it. We smiled. Nodded. Said someday.

 

She started scolding us & called dd selfish, unkind. Told me to make her cut it. "People NEED that hair!" she said. Thank goodness the woman was almost done & left soon after. Her hairdresser said she was telling her how awful we were and that I was raising a selfish, selfish girl!

 

It was really uncomfortable, to say the least.

 

Then why don't they grow their hair out and give it away?!!?!!? Aren't they being selfish by not growing out their hair to donate?

 

You can't donate hair that has had any "treatment" like perms or coloring. So, the Dugger girls can't donate their hair. My oldest dd donated her hair because she wanted to. She refrained from perms and having her hair colored. She is now growing it back out, but is having it highlighted regularly. She loved giving her hair away, but won't do it again. She has complained about having short hair for over a year and a half. She hates her hair short.

 

If someone wants to donate their hair, that is great. But, don't make people with long hair feel bad.

 

I'm sorry people have treated your dd that way. They have NO right to!

[Firefly]

My dd has waist length hair and is often told she should donate her hair. Usually she (we) smile and nod & say someday. Some older ladies (and it is always older ladies!) get nasty about it, almost vicious!

 

Recently, dd was getting it trimmed and another customer told her she should donate it. We smiled. Nodded. Said someday.

 

She started scolding us & called dd selfish, unkind. Told me to make her cut it. "People NEED that hair!" she said. Thank goodness the woman was almost done & left soon after. Her hairdresser said she was telling her how awful we were and that I was raising a selfish, selfish girl!

 

It was really uncomfortable, to say the least.

 

What nerve! Perhaps next time you could say, "I don't know, are you planning on donating that spare kidney?" :glare: I have waist length hair and have received the "you should donate" comment as well, but never as intensely as your poor DD.

 

I am Pagan, not Christian-- I just like long hair on me. I have read though that during the burning times the accused women's heads were often shaved, because it was believed that a witch's power lay in her long hair.

 

Interesting thread; makes me want to research the history of hair and it's associations over time. Oh yeah, but that would mean I'd need that thing called Spare Time... :D

[jonesloonybin]

:iagree:

 

Oh and I LOVE Firefly!!

[mommaduck]

Interesting thread; makes me want to research the history of hair and it's associations over time. Oh yeah, but that would mean I'd need that thing called Spare Time... :D

The associations would make your head spin....many names that many homeschoolers are familiar with would jump off the page.

[stripe]

What nerve! Perhaps next time you could say, "I don't know, are you planning on donating that spare kidney?" :glare: I have waist length hair and have received the "you should donate" comment as well, but never as intensely as your poor DD.

That's really weird and awful how many of you on hear have been told this. I don't mean to be rude, but people wanting a wig could buy ones made from artificial hair. There is nothing vital about having a human hair wig, frankly. I highly doubt that those with hair loss would appreciate bullying on their "behalf." And women being bullied to be surrogate mothers? (Perfectly good womb, should be put to use. You've got stretch marks already; why not save another woman the indignity?)

[Georgiana Daniels]

Interesting topic!

 

My daughter and I both recently cut and donated our hair, but certainly not because of the demands of others. I look stupid with short hair, and my daughter cried. LOL!!! Oh well, it grows back and was for a worthy cause, but I probably won't do it again.

 

I'm looking up the Gothard stuff now. This is the first time I've heard about it!

[Desert Rat]

Yup. That was my first impression too. He wants Michelle's hair long? Cool. The girls? Eww..

[Tabrett]

Interesting topic!

 

I'm looking up the Gothard stuff now. This is the first time I've heard about it!

If you find anything let us know. I tried looking up Gothard and found very little on what they believe (like how the Duggers live). Then when a previous poster mentioned that you weren't supposed to be told certain thing until after you attended a seminar, it started to make sense. You have to BUY all their material. It sounds very cult like.

 

I'd be curious to see what Gothard says to "do'" and "don't" and his Biblical explanations. I don't think Christ ever meant for things to be secretive.

 

I have found sites that are "anti" Gothard, but I'd like to see original Gothard sources. I think "anti" sites tend to spin things in their favor.

[mommaduck]

If you find anything let us know. I tried looking up Gothard and found very little on what they believe (like how the Duggers live). Then when a previous poster mentioned that you weren't supposed to be told certain thing until after you attended a seminar, it started to make sense. You have to BUY all their material. It sounds very cult like.

 

I'd be curious to see what Gothard says to "do'" and "don't" and his Biblical explanations. I don't think Christ ever meant for things to be secretive.

 

I have found sites that are "anti" Gothard, but I'd like to see original Gothard sources. I think "anti" sites tend to spin things in their favor.

 

I still own my Red Book and acquired the Men's Manual I a few years ago at a curriculum sale (*gasp!* yes, someone SOLD theirs; hopefully no one turns them in :D ). I'm sure someone here might still have their Advanced Seminar Book (I've seen it, read through parts, but do not own it as I never got to the Advanced Seminar...thank you, Lord, for making us too broke to go :lol: ). There is a lot more material. So if you have any questions, I can look them up for you ;)

[mommaduck]

Recommended reading:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Matter-Basic-Principles-Gothard-Christian/dp/0974252808

 

http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gothard

 

http://independentspirits.net/news.php

 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2215001843

 

http://xatiguy.blogspot.com/2005/01/x-ati-students-move-on.html

 

http://www.google.com/custom?q=Gothard&domains.x=0&domains.y=0&domains=apologeticsindex.org&cof=LW%3A266%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.apologeticsindex.org%2Fgraphics%2Failogosmall.gif%3BLH%3A80%3BBGC%3A%23FFFFEF%3BAH%3Acenter%3BGL%3A0%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.apologeticsindex.org%2F%3BAWFID%3A1d04f6664b764c0c%3B&domains=apologeticsindex.org&sitesearch=apologeticsindex.org

 

That's just the beginning...

 

 

Personally, I saw where my mama and stepdad were influenced by Gothard. I saw where family abuse was overlooked by people that, if not following Gothard, were following the same system as Gothard. I lost friends due to our not attending the Advanced Seminar and signing up for the ATI curriculum. I lost a friend due to her being forced to side either myself or another woman who was going telling lies and stirring up trouble in a peaceful church...the other woman was ATI, that had more credibility than years of relationship with me (and they didn't want to tick off the one family that had potential age-similar mates for their children, did they? Yeah, let's just say, Karma). The same atmostphere that permits Gothard attracts other strange birds as well....I present to you the Ezzo and Pearl followers and their strange sense of control as well.

Edited May 27, 2009 by mommaduck

[5kidsforME]

My dd has waist length hair and is often told she should donate her hair. Usually she (we) smile and nod & say someday. Some older ladies (and it is always older ladies!) get nasty about it, almost vicious!

 

Recently, dd was getting it trimmed and another customer told her she should donate it. We smiled. Nodded. Said someday.

 

She started scolding us & called dd selfish, unkind. Told me to make her cut it. "People NEED that hair!" she said. Thank goodness the woman was almost done & left soon after. Her hairdresser said she was telling her how awful we were and that I was raising a selfish, selfish girl!

 

It was really uncomfortable, to say the least.

 

 

Well, ya know, spread the wealth and all........:D

[Impish]

My dd has waist length hair and is often told she should donate her hair. Usually she (we) smile and nod & say someday. Some older ladies (and it is always older ladies!) get nasty about it, almost vicious!

 

Recently, dd was getting it trimmed and another customer told her she should donate it. We smiled. Nodded. Said someday.

 

She started scolding us & called dd selfish, unkind. Told me to make her cut it. "People NEED that hair!" she said. Thank goodness the woman was almost done & left soon after. Her hairdresser said she was telling her how awful we were and that I was raising a selfish, selfish girl!

 

It was really uncomfortable, to say the least.

Insane. Completely. Totally. Utterly. Blows my mind that someone could take it upon themselves to DEMAND this of another. How your daughter choosing to keep her own hair is being selfish is beyond me. What a nutbar. I choose to have long hair too...heaven help the person that approaches ME in that manner :glare:

 

I honestly don't understand the comments about it being 'creepy' that the girls have long hair because their Dad likes long hair. My Dad preferred long hair too, and I usually had long hair as a kid. Part of being a 'Daddy's girl' or an attempt at being would be more accurate I suppose. Nothing creepy or incestuous about it at all, any more than I prefer my son to have his hair longer so his curls are evident. *shrug* Of course, the Duggar girls also have religious reasons for their hair to be long too.

[BikeBookBread]

It all makes sense now....I didn't put two and two together until these recent posts re: Basic Youth Conflicts. I also remember thinking, "How can this guy (Bill Gothard) know so much about marriage and parenting when he's never been married and has no children?"

 

I grew up in a wonderful Christian home, great Christian school, superb church, etc. "Everyone" went to BYC, so off we went as a family when I was a freshman in college. I rode with some long-time family friends who started asking me questions (I was a great babysitter candidate, you see -- moral, upright, conservative, kind, etc...). I specifically remember them asking me what kind of music I listened to, and I remember answering that I really liked Brian Duncan (ha, that dates me! it was 1986). The wife said, "Oh. I guess we won't be calling on you to babysit our children then." Just like that. Forget the rest of my upbringing, sunday school teaching experience, AWANA leadership, Christlike character etc. It all came down to that one little thing.

 

I have heard references to BG's viewd on adoption eluded to throughout this string. What are his views, or where can I learn more about them? I just want to know in light of the whole Biblical doctrine of adoption as a metaphor for our salvation -- all throughout ROmans, Galatians and Ephesians, adoption is a beautiful, positive wondrous picture of how God MAKES US HIS HEIRS through Jesus Christ our Lord. How could anyone EVER twist adoption into something ugly and horrible when the Lord Himself adopts us into his family!?!?

[mommaduck]

From "A Matter of Basic Principles" (book I linked to in a previous post):

 

Of course, we are all guilty of misapplying Scripture from time to time. We are taking that into account. The concern we and others have is that, with Gothard, abuse of Scripture happens so frequently and seems to have gotten much worse in recent years. The elevation of his personal opinions to the status of scriptural authority extends into medical advice (Cabbage Patch dolls interfering with the birth of children), adoption (tracing family lineage to bind ancestral demons), and other mystical elements (hedge of thorns, umbrella of authority/protection, sins of the father). (p. 102)

 

From http://www.midwestoutreach.org/02-Information/02-OnlineReference/02-UnorthodoxyGuide/105-IKnowSomething/Gothard-IBLP/Allen-IssuesOfConcern.html

Surpassing even my credibility level is the audacious new teaching reported to me that Gothard now warns parents of adopted children that they may be under the injunction of God’s displeasure because the children they have adopted may be visited by God for the iniquity of their fathers. The only result of such a teaching is guilt — something Gothard seems to desire to produce in his people.

 

From http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

 

 

DIRECT CONSEQUENCES OF OUR FOREFATHERS’ SINS

 

 

 

In one of his alumni booklets, Gothard states, “We were in Adam and a part of his sin.”9 The imputation of Adam’s sin to the human race is stated somewhat differently in Romans 5. That this has anything to do with the D.N.A. ladder, as Gothard goes on to state, is debatable. But Gothard’s point is the extension of our solidarity with Adam. This, he believes, indicates that we and our physical children are under some kind of direct consequence, not just the social or environmental consequences, of our forefathers’ acts of sinning. That being so, according to Gothard, we must agree with God about their sin and ask Him “to remove its consequences from us and from our children.”

 

 

 

To enforce this view, Gothard cites the story of a 3-year-old girl who “did not want to believe in Jesus” until the parents realized their need to confess their sins and the sins of their forefathers. His use of Jeremiah’s acknowledgment of the past and present idolatry of Israel (Jeremiah 14:20) is hardly adequate proof. His use of Exodus 20:5 demonstrates his poor exegesis. Here he fails to understand this verse in context. He makes no attempt to discuss the national consequences of Israel’s idolatry or to exegete the next verse.

 

 

 

Gothard emphasizes sins visited “upon the children unto the third and fourth generation” and neither emphasizes nor explains the pregnant phrase, “of them that hate me.” It is also regrettable that he does not properly consider verse 6 “But showing love to thousands who love me and keep my commandments.” His view is novel and as far as I know cannot be found in any major commentary. Here Gothard parts company with good men. A quick glance at his materials on adopted children shows an extension of this error.10 Here he teaches that the new parents of an adopted child must research the sins of the “biological parents,” confessing them and casting the consequences off the child. He says:

 

 

 

 

 

“Causes of Conflicts — Adopted children are affected by the sins of their natural parents, and these sins are usually very severe.”

 

 

 

 

 

“Steps to Resolve Conflicts — If the child is too young to understand, pray for the child. Confess your sins and acknowledge the sins of the natural parents. Ask God to rebuke Satan and free the child from any unbelief or rebellion from the lives of the parents. Pray in the name and through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

 

 

Then he goes on to say that if the adopted child is old enough, “Explain that just as physical weaknesses are passed down through parents, so are spiritual weaknesses such as pride, lust and rejection (see Exodus 20:5).” He then tips his hat to Exodus 20:6 and Ezekiel 18:20. But if these verses apply, what need is there of the “Step to Resolve the Conflict” in the first place? No such exorcistic ritual is ever hinted at anywhere in the Bible.

 

 

 

Whether ours by birth or by adoption, our children must be brought up under the consistent, continued, corrective, instructive discipline of the Word of God. There are no “quick fixes” for their sins and lapses. There are consequences of Adam’s sin, but grace, salvation and progressive sanctification are the scriptural antidote. Helpful information on adoption of children, certainly more practical and reliable, can be obtained from Christian agencies working in this area of ministry.

 

 

 

Marilyn Willet Heavilin points out the thread of fear running through the ancestral-bondage theme. After her son was killed by a drunken driver some people, like Job’s comforters of old, offered her advice:

 

 

 

 

 

“One well-meaning lady heard my story and suggested that we have someone pray over us to cleanse our bloodlines. Another listener suggested our family was bound by a curse of death. ... I have begun to understand that most of these comments are motivated out of fear that the same thing could happen to those that share them. If a person comes up with a reason for your trauma, they can believe if they avoid that particular pitfall, nothing similar will happen to them.”11

 

 

 

One interesting side note to this topic is the inconsistency found in the previously mentioned Men’s Manual. In a footnote on page 55, Gothard mentions Adam Clarke. He calls the late English Methodist one of the “greatest Bible teachers of the nineteenth century” whom God rewarded by opening his “spiritual understanding to the great themes and hidden wisdom in the Bible.” It is interesting to note what Clarke says of Exodus 20:5, which is a far cry from Gothard’s view.

 

 

 

With such a high endorsement of a man who was totally Arminian and believed in the “second blessing” teaching (as well as loss of salvation), one wonders where Bill Gothard really stands doctrinally. But as to Exodus 20:5 Clarke says:

 

 

 

 

 

“Visiting the iniquity of the Fathers upon the children.

This necessarily implies — if the children walk in the steps of their fathers;

for no man can be condemned by Divine justice for a crime of which he was never guilty; see Ezekiel 18.

Idolatry

is however particularly intended, and visiting sins of this kind refers

principally to national judgments

. By withdrawing the Divine protection the idolatrous Israelites were delivered up into the hands of their enemies, from whom the gods in whom they trusted could not deliver them. This God did to the third and fourth generations, i.e. successively; as may be seen in every part of the Jewish history. ... These national judgments thus continue from generation to generation, appear to be what are designed by the words in the text, visiting the sins of the fathers upon the children”12 (emphasis added).

 

 

 

Whatever one thinks of Clarke’s exegesis, it is clear that it does not agree with Gothard’s view. Clarke’s reference to Ezekiel 18 is crucial to this issue. Ezekiel 18:20-22 says:

 

 

 

 

 

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live and not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: In his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.”

 

 

 

All of this was an answer to those who were saying that sons in some way personally bore the iniquity of their fathers (v. 19). Germane as well is Jeremiah 31:29-30: “In those days they shall say no more, the fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But everyone shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.”

 

 

[mommaduck]

oops double post!

[tex-mex]

i know!!! they have pretty hair but I am so over Michelle's flipped back bangs. that is so old school and Anna's really thin hair with that swoop bang in the front and that ugly crunchy curl

 

 

Wow... kinda harsh. Anna's hair, BTW, is naturally curly.

[DawnM]

Yup, yup, yup.....thank you for posting this....I was far too upset earlier to post it. The Ezzos are another controling group.

 

Dawn

 

Recommended reading:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Matter-Basic-Principles-Gothard-Christian/dp/0974252808

 

http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gothard

 

http://independentspirits.net/news.php

 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2215001843

 

http://xatiguy.blogspot.com/2005/01/x-ati-students-move-on.html

 

http://www.google.com/custom?q=Gothard&domains.x=0&domains.y=0&domains=apologeticsindex.org&cof=LW%3A266%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.apologeticsindex.org%2Fgraphics%2Failogosmall.gif%3BLH%3A80%3BBGC%3A%23FFFFEF%3BAH%3Acenter%3BGL%3A0%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.apologeticsindex.org%2F%3BAWFID%3A1d04f6664b764c0c%3B&domains=apologeticsindex.org&sitesearch=apologeticsindex.org

 

That's just the beginning...

 

 

Personally, I saw where my mama and stepdad were influenced by Gothard. I saw where family abuse was overlooked by people that, if not following Gothard, were following the same system as Gothard. I lost friends due to our not attending the Advanced Seminar and signing up for the ATI curriculum. I lost a friend due to her being forced to side either myself or another woman who was going telling lies and stirring up trouble in a peaceful church...the other woman was ATI, that had more credibility than years of relationship with me (and they didn't want to tick off the one family that had potential age-similar mates for their children, did they? Yeah, let's just say, Karma). The same atmostphere that permits Gothard attracts other strange birds as well....I present to you the Ezzo and Pearl followers and their strange sense of control as well.

Edited May 27, 2009 by DawnM

[Heather in Neverland]

From "A Matter of Basic Principles" (book I linked to in a previous post):

 

 

 

From http://www.midwestoutreach.org/02-Information/02-OnlineReference/02-UnorthodoxyGuide/105-IKnowSomething/Gothard-IBLP/Allen-IssuesOfConcern.html

 

 

From http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

 

[/left]

 

This guy just went to the top of my "whack-job" list.

[mommaduck]

This guy just went to the top of my "whack-job" list.

Yeah, he's quite a piece of work. And he's treated like a prophet.

[DawnM]

I think she meant the author of the articles.

 

Dawn

 

Yeah, he's quite a piece of work. And he's treated like a prophet.

[mommaduck]

I think she meant the author of the articles.

 

Dawn

 

Those links have more than one author, but only one subject.

[Hillary in KS]

My dd has waist length hair and is often told she should donate her hair. Usually she (we) smile and nod & say someday. Some older ladies (and it is always older ladies!) get nasty about it, almost vicious!

 

Recently, dd was getting it trimmed and another customer told her she should donate it. We smiled. Nodded. Said someday.

 

She started scolding us & called dd selfish, unkind. Told me to make her cut it. "People NEED that hair!" she said. Thank goodness the woman was almost done & left soon after. Her hairdresser said she was telling her how awful we were and that I was raising a selfish, selfish girl!

 

It was really uncomfortable, to say the least.

 

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

 

 

Apparently it applies to more than just taxes.

 

:D

[DawnM]

Oh, well, earlier she posted that her pastor used to work directly with Bill Gothard. So I guess I am confused.

 

Dawn

 

Those links have more than one author, but only one subject.

[mommaduck]

Oh, well, earlier she posted that her pastor used to work directly with Bill Gothard. So I guess I am confused.

 

Dawn

 

I've known some people that worked with/for him also ;) I grew up under some of this system and spent years in a heavily ATI/IBLP influenced church (so much so, that they used to have a rule...to work for the school, you had to attend the seminars). I've attended one seminar and read through other portions of his materials, had friends that schooled through ATI, a friend's daughter that attended his cosmotology school, a friend that had a son in ALERT, and a friend that had a son work at HQ.

[Heather in Neverland]

I think she meant the author of the articles.

 

Dawn

 

I meant Gothard himself. I adopted a child and his views of adoption disgust me.

[Heather in Neverland]

Oh, well, earlier she posted that her pastor used to work directly with Bill Gothard. So I guess I am confused.

 

Dawn

 

Yes he is and there are things he believes in that I do NOT agree with. But since we are moving in 6 weeks.....

[DawnM]

Oh, ok. Sorry I misunderstood.

 

I have an adopted child as well (and was adopted as an infant.) Adoption is VERY near and dear to my heart.

 

I will give the Duggars credit though.....on the episode where they were in El Salvador on a missions trip Jim Bob said something to the effect that he would be happy to see any of his kids adopt an orphan from a foreign country who needed a home. Since they are ATI and quiverfull folks, it actually brought a tear to my eye!

 

Dawn

 

I meant Gothard himself. I adopted a child and his views of adoption disgust me.

[DawnM]

Where are you moving?

 

Dawn

 

Yes he is and there are things he believes in that I do NOT agree with. But since we are moving in 6 weeks.....

[Liza Q]

I must say that I think this is the funniest thread title I have ever read - Christian Hair!!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Heather in Neverland]

Where are you moving?

 

Dawn

 

to Malaysia

[DawnM]

How wonderful. I have been there. Will you be doing missions work?

 

Dawn

 

to Malaysia