S/O of who is Edgar Allen Poe? Don't we all have gaps?

[Colleen]

We're talking about something a bit bigger in this thread, what should be taught universally? What is does "well educated" mean? I'm just musing as to whether it is desirable or necessary for everyone to participate in the Great Conversation in this limited way. To what end? How much dies with us, and what, if anything, do we leave behind? Just to clarify, I'm not equating "end" with economic utility. I guess it's the idea of "everyone should." Why?

 

Bingo. And then when one takes into consideration the fact that the so-called great conversation is highly oriented toward Western culture, well...

 

Imho, those who tout such "education" as being prized above all else are viewing life through a fairly narrow lens. It's one possible part of the picture, yes. But to assume it's essential to A Core Body of Knowledge is just...not right. Again, imho.

[Colleen]

I thought that was Susan Wise Bauer! :D

 

Some seem to think so, yes.;) And goodness knows the woman is far (FAR!) more educated, talented, and capable than I. When she speaks, I listen. I value her ideas, her suggestions, her opinions. And yet, her opinion is still just that.:)

[Zelda]

Maybe I'm just projecting, because I see this kind of thing so often. But it does seem to me that most people I run into are perfectly content to admit--nay, flaunt--their ignorance.

 

You get more attention/compassion/pity/praise in some circles for what you lack than what you achieve.

[lovemyboys]

that people can gain that body of knowledge by reading.

 

But realisitcally, there are a lot of people less privileged than you and I. There are also a whole lot of people whose interests and talents differ from yours, or mine. Not everyone is going to self-educate their entire life via books, kwim?

 

I'm weighing in here, because dh and I have two members in our extended family who were voracious readers. They were not well-educated in school systems, had completed only 8 and 11 years of formal education. But they read their entire lives, were well-versed on many topics, current events, history, science.

 

You wouldn't have guessed it if you'd met either man on the street perhaps, but there you have it, reading can take a person from very humble circumstances to a well-rounded, informed, "educated" person. And I'd be willing to bet that both knew who EAP was.

 

My dc are just on the cusp of tackling the classics on their own, and yet they know some of the stories. Already they've have been exposed to much of what I would consider is important to be culturally "literate." In our house, that includes being exposed to the classics of children literature. I'll gladly jump over Captain Underpants or Junie B. Jones or the like, so that they'll have read Lobel, Sendak, Steig, Minarik, Shulevitz, White.

 

It just seems to me that if I'm going to take this much time out of my life to have them here homeschooling, I want to make the time as meaningful as possible. I want them to know the classic characters, hear the great vocabulary and well-turned phrases.

 

I want my children to know that beauty.

 

And I feel that I owe them that core of knowledge. A well-educated person will have that cultural literacy, will understand references made to characters, a famous line, a plot turn.

 

There exist several lists of such literature, and one could debate an author here and there, and add in his/her own, but in general, the "core" is time tested. It gives us a social commonality. Without a base or core like that, it seems to me that we do our dc a disservice, especially if we value a classically-based education, wouldn't you think?

[Aubrey]

I get that. But that's not participating in the sense of conversing, contributing to a conversation, or society, or a body of knowledge.

 

Reading something is an invitation to the table. You're not required to speak.

 

But I don't think it's necessary to read any of it to participate in the conversation. I think we all participate to one extent or another, because the Conversation is just another way of saying What it is To Be Human. We're talking about the nature of good & evil, the meaning of life, courage, pity, pride, etc.

 

Just like one can skip over 5pp of posts here & say something, you can skip over all the conversation that has gone before you & still talk. If you're really interested, though, you might decide to get a cup of coffee & some mud boots & wade on through. You'll encounter some great insights & some garbage & some stuff that's just not decipherable. Their names might be Shakespeare, Poe, & Faulkner. Or Austen, Dick, & Aristotle.

 

The neat thing, though, is that ears are the only requirements to sit at the table. As long as you're willing to listen, the Conversation is the one place you get to sit shoulder-to-shoulder w/ the giants, hearing them work out their theories, listening as they confide their secrets, fears, dreams.

 

You can add yours, too, if you want. If you're eloquent, you might get a paycheck from Norton. If not, your part of the conversation might merely be at your kitchen table or on these boards. But the point is, if you listen, your table, your boards, your sofa, will be populated w/ great, highly opinionated friends, & you will become part of something greater than yourself.

[lovemyboys]

I get that. But that's not participating in the sense of conversing, contributing to a conversation, or society, or a body of knowledge.

 

But references do come up during conversations and discussions. I won't say "all the time" but often enough. Song lyrics draw from them.

 

To me, it would be like raising kids who have no idea who Winnie the Pooh, Peter Rabbit or Horton are in favor of Dora, Teletubbies or Spongebob. The new characters have their good points, but will they be remembered 20 years from now? The same goes for the classics as they grow up. What's a siren, what happened to Dorian Grey, what is a truth universally accepted according to Austen? But, more, the plots, the lessons, the character development in the classics is so rich, you want to read them more than once.

 

Ah well, it's way too late. But I do think this is one of the best things about homeschooling -- the ability to spend lots of time with great books.

:001_smile:

[jamnkats]

True that!!!

 

And to assume that everyone should know the same things seems like mass educational goals to me. My kids haven't read Edgar Allen Poe yet and I'm not in any particular hurry for them to do so. The only thing I know about EAP is that he wrote a poem called The Raven that made very little sense to me when I read it in high school. The only particular thing I can recall from the poem is that the word 'quoth' was used.

 

Add me to the stupid list. :tongue_smilie:

 

I have to say that the first time I read "The Raven" to my 12yo he beat me to the "Nevermore" punch and shouted "EAT MY SHORTS!" Apparently he'd been introduced to EAP via "The Simpsons". :)

[Spy Car]

But this is, after all, a classical homeschooling board, and Poe is a widely taught author in American schools (unlike Robinson Jeffers).

 

Which is a shame, because Robinson Jeffers is as fine a writer as this country has ever known. But does anyone read his epic poems? They are absolute master works, and yet for the most part they gather dust.

 

Anyway, I'm torn on the whole issue, as I highly prize cultural literacy (and to that end just finished reading my son a bed-time story of Theseus and the Minotaur) but also recognize that many great contributions to our culture have been made by men and women who never classically educated, or even well-read. Or perhaps even literate.

 

Charlie Parker (to the best of my knowledge) never studied Latin, may not have appreciated Moby Dick, but that cat could *blow* :D

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

So although The Canon of Western literature may be debated--Moby Dick, for example, will never be required reading in my home, and though I may require my kids to read something by Faulkner and Hemingway, I won't make them pretend to like it....

 

Does that make any sense? Or does that sound just hopelessly snobbish? Because really--I'm not at all snobby in real life. :D

 

You were sounding quite snobby to me, until you got to the part where you started running down Faulkner, Hemingway, and *gasp* Moby Dick, then you pretty much blew it :D

 

Bill (who loves that whale-story)

[bumbledeb]

I have to say that the first time I read "The Raven" to my 12yo he beat me to the "Nevermore" punch and shouted "EAT MY SHORTS!" Apparently he'd been introduced to EAP via "The Simpsons". :)

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

A great deal of the cultural literacy in this home is thanks to the Simpsons. I was talking about these threads with my 16yo last night and he explained the Beating Heart reference to me, reminding me of the episode where Lisa cheats to win a diorama competition.

[fivetails]

By your definition of "educated".

Yes, by an objective definition of 'educated' and not some loosey-goosey interpretation of education wherein no one would ever fall outside the definition of educated.

 

Don't worry, I'm a dying breed and the "New Age Feel Gooderies" have won the canon wars. And now you can get a "crocodile in spelling" instead of being judged by some archaic standard that doesn't matter in the real world where no one spells anything anymore anyway. KWIM? TTYL.

 

Note that I did say "your" - and you are certainly entitled to your own opinion and view of what is "educated" ....as are others.

 

I believe that education comes in *many* forms - as do "educated" people. YMMV. :)

[Michelle in MO]

I'm certain that I have gaps in my education; I know that I do, but I make efforts to correct those gaps. There are many fine authors that I've heard of, but haven't yet read.

 

I don't see that anyone on this thread is trying to be elitist at all, but it seems like there is a failure in our educational system when people haven't even heard of Edgar Allen Poe or other well-known authors. I can understand completely why someone who was born somewhere else and emigrated here to the United States has not heard of Poe. Perhaps in their canon of literature Schiller or Goethe were more widely read, or Moliere, Hugo and Rousseau. And, the books that are on one person's "must read" list may not be on another's. But, Poe used to be widely read in a typical American high school, at least while I was there.

 

Honestly, I'm wondering why this conversation is even taking place on a classical education board. I thought that amending our own education and that of our children was the point of being here.

Edited January 31, 2009 by Michelle in MO
additional thoughts

[klmama]

Manga is an example of something that kids in today's culture would look at their peers (and the nearest adults) and throw as much of a tizzy over as some did over the Poe stamp.

 

 

 

 

Okay, so I guess maybe I should at least let them know what it is. ;) Are you talking about Japanese comics, or is it something else? If it is the comics, are there are any that a conservative, Christian, modesty-pushing, over-protective mom would actually like her dc to read, or do I put this in the same category as Junie B. Jones and Captain Underpants and tell my dc that some people like them, but we don't have a reason to read them?

[SFP]

Well...I'm typing as I think, which is never a good thing. So bear with me. I just received a link to a list of the 1000 Books You Must Read Before You Die or some such nonsense. It included A Clockwork Orange--gag moi--and didn't include ANY Austen. Need I say more? ;) So I'll readily admit that tastes vary....

 

 

 

If you're talking about the Guardian's 1000 novels list that came out this month, all six Austens are there, listed under Love. If you're talking about the 1001 Books list from a couple years back, all six Austens are there as well.

 

If you're talking about another 1000 books list that I'm unaware of, will you please send me a link? I love enormous lists.

[Jugglin'5]

I often wonder in a similar vein.

If we're talking about contributions made to society, wouldn't my father and his brothers, ironworkers all of them, made at least an equal contribution in the years and expertise given to what we now refer to as the Seattle skyline, as any I could possibly make in reading and discussing a thousand books?

 

I don't mean to discredit those whose work is intellectual, but my father probably hasn't read three books on anybody's 'must read' list and yet his talent and contribution to my fair city is significant.

I encounter people like him on a regular basis. They may not know EAP, but they sure keep our world going 'round.

 

 

I would hope that no one would argue that being uneducated means that one can't contribute to society. That's a non sequitur. At the same time, there is still such a thing as being educated or uneducated. The problem is that fewer and fewer people are even willing to agree that there IS such a thing as an education. Our world needs educated people, too. I don't want to be in a world run only by scientists and technicians.

[Night Elf]

But is there not a body of knowledge that adults should share in order to be considered educated?

 

I do understand what you're saying but I keep getting hung up on the fact that there is so much knowledge to be learned that it seems elitist to sift through and assign more value to certain pieces than others.

 

But you've opened up a discussion between me and my husband. We've having quite a discussion! :)

[jamnkats]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

A great deal of the cultural literacy in this home is thanks to the Simpsons. I was talking about these threads with my 16yo last night and he explained the Beating Heart reference to me, reminding me of the episode where Lisa cheats to win a diorama competition.

 

It is very true (and I remember that episode - it was a great one). My boys are constantly referencing something we discuss with a previous exposure via books they've found, "The Simpsons", Runescape, Age of Empires and their current obsession, "300".

[lionfamily1999]

Okay, so I guess maybe I should at least let them know what it is. ;) Are you talking about Japanese comics, or is it something else? If it is the comics, are there are any that a conservative, Christian, modesty-pushing, over-protective mom would actually like her dc to read, or do I put this in the same category as Junie B. Jones and Captain Underpants and tell my dc that some people like them, but we don't have a reason to read them?

No! You would not want your kids to read them. My dd gets them at school and I wish she couldn't. They are the Japanese comic books.

[Night Elf]

I don't see that anyone on this thread is trying to be elitist at all, but it seems like there is a failure in our educational system when people haven't even heard of Edgar Allen Poe or other well-known authors.

 

Also consider the possibility that they have heard of Poe or other authors and then forgot about them completely because they have no relevance to their lives. Like I said in my first response, I know Poe's name and that he wrote a poem called The Raven. I don't know anything else about him. I couldn't even remember that he was an American author. Yet I'm absolutely positive we talked about him in high school. So because I cannot remember everything I was exposed to, I'm considered uneducated? Or does the fact that I simply recognize his name mean something?

 

And yes, we're all on a classical education board but I think we all agree that our educational and life goals for our children are probably different from one another. We've discussed that in numerous threads.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Why is it important to be well-educated/well-read? Well quite simply it is for your own personal satisfaction. Sure, it can be defended with lots of educational goals, job potential, future employment etc. But it is primarily because you (ideally speaking) enjoy the benefits in your own life.

 

One of those benefits is being part of the conversation. In my opinion this is being culturally literate. Being culturally literate is typically defined in the USA in Western Cultural terms. I'm sure in other parts of the world there are variations on how to define cultural literacy. Taking part in the "conversation" is not confined to literally speaking to another person or contributing to societal/cultural growth. It involves understanding our past and present so that you can understand the references to a body of work when they appear both within and without that work.

 

My elementary aged children participate in the "conversation" when they do the following: gain insight into Harry Potter via it's use/reference to Latin words, watch Bugs Bunny and understand the meaning of "Hug him and squeeze him and call him George" or the musical references to "Barber of Seville", when they visit an art museum and can discuss a painting that references mythological or religious stories they have heard, why a depiction of the Bayeux Tapestry was an inappropriate curtain for a production of Macbeth, why the Roman Playmobil ship has SPQR on the sail, etc. It goes on and on through the Simpsons, Monty Python, etc.

 

In my opinion the actual works that need to be understood to make one well-educated may be larger than one person could fully study in a life time, they are constantly shifting and reinterpreted. It grows as exposure to other cultures grows in the West and as time passes and new works are included. To use a reference from such a cultural lexicon--it is conceptually similar to the difference between a British notion of a constitution and an American notion.

 

Now for the "snobby" part...Being "well-educated" was never meant for everyone. Anyone can obtain such an education because it is certainly part of a lifelong process. However, not everyone would want to pursue such knowledge. I don't mean that in the sense that people who don't follow this path are any sort of lesser person just less educated by the above definition. They are a person with different interests, goals, and contributions to society. Of course your postal worker or plumber can be "well-educated" and your lawyer a mere technician of the law. That is perfectly possible in today's society.

 

This of course leads to the next proposition-national curriculum based on a common understanding of being well-educated. While this notion is appealing from an education standpoint I would, if given the option, vote no. Simply because I would like to not witness the ensuing red tape such a federal bureaucracy would create and the potential difficulties of federal control over homeschooling.

 

One final definition-being "culturally" literate and knowing pop culture are two very different things. A classic Venn diagram where there is some overlapping knowledge that will ultimately have pieces incorporated into the conversation and other will remain pop culture.

 

There is nothing wrong with being well educated. Nothing wrong with trying to give your children a greater understanding of the Western Canon so that they may take part more fully in the conversation. I have the ability to give them some of the pieces that will allow them to fully pursue their interests as adults. They may want to gain other bodies of knowledge as well but they will still be able to laugh with a deeper understanding when Bugs gives Elmer a shampoo.

[Plaid Dad]

I keep getting hung up on the fact that there is so much knowledge to be learned that it seems elitist to sift through and assign more value to certain pieces than others.

 

I wouldn't call it elitism; I'd call it common sense. With so much to learn, how could you not choose to emphasize the more important over the less important?

[Night Elf]

I wouldn't call it elitism; I'd call it common sense. With so much to learn, how could you not choose to emphasize the more important over the less important?

 

Exactly what my DH is saying. :D

[cathmom]

OK, I'll bite. What the heck does "Hug him and squeeze him and call him George" mean???

[Jugglin'5]

Why is it important to be well-educated/well-read? Well quite simply it is for your own personal satisfaction. Sure, it can be defended with lots of educational goals, job potential, future employment etc. But it is primarily because you (ideally speaking) enjoy the benefits in your own life.

 

One of those benefits is being part of the conversation. In my opinion this is being culturally literate. Being culturally literate is typically defined in the USA in Western Cultural terms. I'm sure in other parts of the world there are variations on how to define cultural literacy. Taking part in the "conversation" is not confined to literally speaking to another person or contributing to societal/cultural growth. It involves understanding our past and present so that you can understand the references to a body of work when they appear both within and without that work.

 

My elementary aged children participate in the "conversation" when they do the following: gain insight into Harry Potter via it's use/reference to Latin words, watch Bugs Bunny and understand the meaning of "Hug him and squeeze him and call him George" or the musical references to "Barber of Seville", when they visit an art museum and can discuss a painting that references mythological or religious stories they have heard, why a depiction of the Bayeux Tapestry was an inappropriate curtain for a production of Macbeth, why the Roman Playmobil ship has SPQR on the sail, etc. It goes on and on through the Simpsons, Monty Python, etc.

 

In my opinion the actual works that need to be understood to make one well-educated may be larger than one person could fully study in a life time, they are constantly shifting and reinterpreted. It grows as exposure to other cultures grows in the West and as time passes and new works are included. To use a reference from such a cultural lexicon--it is conceptually similar to the difference between a British notion of a constitution and an American notion.

 

Now for the "snobby" part...Being "well-educated" was never meant for everyone. Anyone can obtain such an education because it is certainly part of a lifelong process. However, not everyone would want to pursue such knowledge. I don't mean that in the sense that people who don't follow this path are any sort of lesser person just less educated by the above definition. They are a person with different interests, goals, and contributions to society. Of course your postal worker or plumber can be "well-educated" and your lawyer a mere technician of the law. That is perfectly possible in today's society.

 

This of course leads to the next proposition-national curriculum based on a common understanding of being well-educated. While this notion is appealing from an education standpoint I would, if given the option, vote no. Simply because I would like to not witness the ensuing red tape such a federal bureaucracy would create and the potential difficulties of federal control over homeschooling.

 

One final definition-being "culturally" literate and knowing pop culture are two very different things. A classic Venn diagram where there is some overlapping knowledge that will ultimately have pieces incorporated into the conversation and other will remain pop culture.

 

There is nothing wrong with being well educated. Nothing wrong with trying to give your children a greater understanding of the Western Canon so that they may take part more fully in the conversation. I have the ability to give them some of the pieces that will allow them to fully pursue their interests as adults. They may want to gain other bodies of knowledge as well but they will still be able to laugh with a deeper understanding when Bugs gives Elmer a shampoo.

 

 

It's not just for personal satisfaction and getting inside jokes. The primary reason should be to gain wisdom. Ignoring 6000 or so years of human history and thought is not the expressway to wisdom.

[dragons in the flower bed]

But realisitcally, there are a lot of people less privileged than you and I. There are also a whole lot of people whose interests and talents differ from yours, or mine. Not everyone is going to self-educate their entire life via books, kwim? So the question remains, who determines the body of knowledge and how is it transmitted?

 

It is true that many underprivileged children will not self-educate through no fault of their own. Is the best solution to that problem a national curriculum?

[Plaid Dad]

OK, I'll bite. What the heck does "Hug him and squeeze him and call him George" mean???

 

It's a reference to "Of Mice and Men" that shows up in a Bugs Bunny cartoon.

[dragons in the flower bed]

As someone who learned about Edgar Allen Poe from Tiny Toons & the Animaniacs on after school cable TV while my mom was at work, I was simply surprised that someone had that gap.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

It's a reference to "Of Mice and Men" that shows up in a Bugs Bunny cartoon.

 

Thank You!:001_smile:

[fivetails]

I wouldn't call it elitism; I'd call it common sense. With so much to learn, how could you not choose to emphasize the more important over the less important?

 

I suspect that we all do....but what differs from person to person is how we make the divisions of "more" and "less"..... :)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

It's not just for personal satisfaction and getting inside jokes. The primary reason should be to gain wisdom. Ignoring 6000 or so years of human history and thought is not the expressway to wisdom.

 

 

You are correct, the purpose is to gain wisdom but since when is that incompatible with pleasure and satisfaction.

 

My examples above may seem like inside jokes to adults but to an 8 year old they are the key to inside knowledge, to knowing what the adults know. I thought I would keep my response at that level rather than debate how an adult would participate in the "conversation".

 

I am not advocating ignoring 6000 years of history or art or literature. I am embracing it and saying that we should be studying it.

 

With human resources pros and college admissions officers in constant disagreement about how to define well-educated, I chose not to defend education and cultural literacy from the perspective of future salary but rather as a component of a well lived life, one of personal satisfaction.

[cathmom]

Obviously I never read Of Mice and Men. I have read The Grapes of Wrath though, just so you don't think I am totally illiterate. Will someone be starting a thread about my gap now? :D

[unsinkable]

Also consider the possibility that they have heard of Poe or other authors and then forgot about them completely because they have no relevance to their lives. Like I said in my first response, I know Poe's name and that he wrote a poem called The Raven. I don't know anything else about him. I couldn't even remember that he was an American author. Yet I'm absolutely positive we talked about him in high school. So because I cannot remember everything I was exposed to, I'm considered uneducated? Or does the fact that I simply recognize his name mean something?

 

And yes, we're all on a classical education board but I think we all agree that our educational and life goals for our children are probably different from one another. We've discussed that in numerous threads.

 

This is what I think happened to me w/my music education. Somewhere in all those years in chorus, I knew there 8 notes in an octave. But by the time I was a young mother with 3 kids under 5, it slipped my mind.

 

Then I asked my question and am still cringing about it 10 years later.

 

Maybe those post office ladies knew about Poe at one time and now don't even remember it. It never stuck.

[Michelle in MO]

Also consider the possibility that they have heard of Poe or other authors and then forgot about them completely because they have no relevance to their lives. Like I said in my first response, I know Poe's name and that he wrote a poem called The Raven. I don't know anything else about him. I couldn't even remember that he was an American author. Yet I'm absolutely positive we talked about him in high school. So because I cannot remember everything I was exposed to, I'm considered uneducated? Or does the fact that I simply recognize his name mean something?

 

And yes, we're all on a classical education board but I think we all agree that our educational and life goals for our children are probably different from one another. We've discussed that in numerous threads.

 

you uneducated for not remembering Poe's relevance to your life! I've read many authors, and some of them impacted my life greatly, and others not nearly so much. Or, I remember that I've read them, but don't remember much about them. But, at least in high school you had the opportunity to be exposed to Poe; if you were to pick up one of his short stories or re-read "The Raven" now, it would undoubtedly be more meaningful to you now than it did while you were in high school.

 

For example, I don't remember very much at all from high school physics, and I never studied physics in college. For years I could not possibly fathom why on earth someone would be interested in studying physics. Then I discovered that I enjoyed reading biographies of great scientists, so I read about Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, and other more popular works about physics and physicists. Once I saw why they were interested in physics, I began to see a relevance of the subject in my own life. So, looking back, I'm not sure how high school physics impacted my life, but somehow I believe it added a little to my body of knowledge and became a springboard upon which I could build and develop other interests. I think the same would be true of Poe, or Emerson, or Hawthorne: you can be exposed to them in high school, and it may not have much relevance at that time. But---at least you've been exposed to them. Then, as you walk through life and encounter other life circumstances, the significance of these authors may be much greater to you as you grow older.

[Zelda]

If one does not have some knowledge of Poe then one is not well educated. One may be a very nice person who likes to think of themselves as educated but they're not educated. Just nice. Why isn't just nice good enough?

 

I'm enjoying people saying, on the one hand, that being industrious is just as good as being educated and then absolutely bristling when someone is called uneducated. The argument could be that being educated is not as important or is less important than other achievements or virtues but instead it became an argument that education has no definition and we are all educated in our own way. It just illustrates how much value is really placed on being educated. Some will acquire it and others will just assume the mantel but the difference will always be obvious.

[laylamcb]

If you're talking about the Guardian's 1000 novels list that came out this month, all six Austens are there, listed under Love. If you're talking about the 1001 Books list from a couple years back, all six Austens are there as well.

 

If you're talking about another 1000 books list that I'm unaware of, will you please send me a link? I love enormous lists.

 

 

ACK, SFP--I'm not sure what list I'm talking about. :001_huh: It was forwarded to me by a forward-happy friend, and I've deleted the email. It might well have been the Guardian's list, and perhaps, after wading through 863 other "must-reads," I missed the "Love" heading. That is certainly possible. I honestly can't remember. If I can find it again in my 8,000-message-long inbox (speaking of must-reads...), I'll PM you. I love enormous lists, too. :001_smile:

[TraceyS/FL]

It thought it funny a few minutes ago when editing an 11th Grade English class from BJU (Homesat) that they were talking about EAP - really, i should go back and watch it huh? LOL!!

 

I really don't remember talking about him much in school... if at all. That must just mean that Sr Sheila wasn't as passionate about him as she was The Scarlet Letter. Really, did we do more than that book in 4 years of school??

 

I read a lot, but NEVER had the classics put in my hands. I really need to start reading more of - that is my goal this year after getting thru the personal upheaval. Back to making ME into a person i like.

 

OK, lunch break over. Back to work.

[LisaNY]

No, I get you. Totally.

 

I've always thought of it more like--again, typing while thinking, not so good for me--these Great Books (whichever one decides they might be) are the repository of the Deep Thoughts of the great thinkers of a culture or of many cultures. So as I'm reading these archives, I'm conversing with the text itself and by extension with the author of the text. I wasn't talking about a kind of a book club conversation, but rather about one's own interaction with the ideas presented in these great works.

 

 

 

Excellent post!! You very well may do your best thinking while you type! :D

[lovemytea]

There is absolutely no way to know everything about everything. And, not knowing about Edgar Allen Poe is hardly that big of a problem. He was a weirdo! :) I have told my girls a little about him, but we haven't study that much. We read "The Raven" and that was about all I cared to discuss with them. I would rather spend our time on boring Shakespeare. :)

[lovemytea]

I agree. I went through 12 years of pubic education. I didn't go to kindergarten because it wasn't as widely available as it is now. I graduated from high school without failing any grades. I was an average student. I did everything I was asked to do by my teachers and I read everything I was asked to read. If I wasn't introduced to a particular author, that doesn't make me uneducated or illiterate. It simply means that I, as with all students, couldn't possibly read all the material available.

 

Obviously I never read Of Mice and Men. I have read The Grapes of Wrath though, just so you don't think I am totally illiterate. Will someone be starting a thread about my gap now? :D

Edited January 31, 2009 by lovemytea

[tibbyl]

You know all those great books we were supposed to read in high school and college but only managed to slog through some of them?

 

I had this wonderful little red paperback I bought in high school. Can't recall name of it, but it was an encyclopedia of sorts. It was the author's opinion of what were greatest books of all time. Along with title of the work was (1) a brief discussion of author, times he/she lived in, and their other works and (2) a very short summary of plot and (3) a paragraph on the work's cultural and historical significance.

 

It was a wonderful resource for those of us who wanted a modicum of cultural literacy without having to read countless tomes.

[Plaid Dad]

I just want to point out that there's been a leap from "not culturally literate" to "stupid and uneducated." I'd also note that the last two labels have no necessary connection with each other, nor do "stupid" and "not culturally literate." At the same time, "graduated from school" and "educated" are by no means synonymous either.

 

Also, once again, we are not talking about reading or enjoying Poe, but about recognizing his name. Nor are we talking about the inherent worth of any individual, their earning power, their manners, their contribution to society, their personal holiness, or anything other than their level of "general knowledge" and how that relates to the (apparently controversial) concept of being "well-educated."

[Colleen]

It is true that many underprivileged children will not self-educate through no fault of their own. Is the best solution to that problem a national curriculum?

 

I don't know if it's the best solution, but I have always supported the idea of a national curriculum. I don't understand it when people steadfastly oppose such a thing, yet assert that our populace should all be exposed to a certain core body of knowledge. (Footnote: By "people", I am not referring to Plaid Dad or anyone else in this particular conversation. I'm speaking in generalities, based on discussions in which I've participated, both here and elsewhere.)

[lovemytea]

And, once again, I'm saying you can only know the things of which you were introduced. I did read his work and it was incredibly depressing. I have "introduced" my dds to him because I feel it's necessary. But, my point is, not all have been. I was simply pointing out that one isn't educated because of knowing, and one isn't uneducated because of not knowing, EAP.

 

 

I just want to point out that there's been a leap from "not culturally literate" to "stupid and uneducated." I'd also note that the last two labels have no necessary connection with each other, nor do "stupid" and "not culturally literate." At the same time, "graduated from school" and "educated" are by no means synonymous either.

 

Also, once again, we are not talking about reading or enjoying Poe, but about recognizing his name. Nor are we talking about the inherent worth of any individual, their earning power, their manners, their contribution to society, their personal holiness, or anything other than their level of "general knowledge" and how that relates to the (apparently controversial) concept of being "well-educated."

[Mekanamom]

 

In theory, I would have no problem with using Core Knowledge as a universal American public school curriculum provided it was used in its entirety, by adequately trained teachers, as Hirsch and his colleagues intended. However, I doubt it would ever be adopted with those stipulations.

 

 

 

I admit, I'm a sort of quiet Core Knowledge fan. It certainly *sounds* like a good idea to me. We studied "Cultural Literacy" in one of my college classes...

 

I do believe that I read somewhere that K12 was at least influenced by Hirsch/Core Knowledge. I think it was developed with the CK standards in mind. I'll have to look that up again.

 

And doesn't CK leave a LOT open for teacher influence? It's not like a set-in-stone curriculum that everyone has to memorize in order to be considered culturally literate. It's got all the basics, but if you just follow the "What Your X Grader Needs to Know" books, you'd only have about a semester's worth of work. The rest is supposed to be open for the teachers to do their thing and flesh it all out. It's not as limiting as many people seem to assume it is.

[Blessedfamily]

I have my own list of authors whom I consider essential reading, and my own list of great books. Some coincide with others lists, some don't.

 

Yes, in the interest of time, I will emphasize the greater works. But who decides which works are "greater"? .

[Mekanamom]

Yeah. I've got gaps. Here's one: I went through public school and college with good grades, and have a BA degree. AND I didn't know who Nero was until I started homeschooling. Click.

 

I am well aware that one of the reasons I'm homeschooling is to try to minimize those sorts of gaps for my kids... (As well as fill in at least some of my own gaps!) It doesn't seem to hold them back from doing more hands-on work...

 

...I'm about to go join them out in the paddock to shovel some manure right now!

[Lovedtodeath]

I have not read through 10 pages of posts... sorry. Is Edgar Allen Poe in SOTW or TWTM? Because if he isn't, then I wasn't planning on teaching about him.

[Penelope]

I have not read through 10 pages of posts... sorry. Is Edgar Allen Poe in SOTW or TWTM? Because if he isn't, then I wasn't planning on teaching about him.

 

Sure enough. :D

pg. 359 (no I don't have it memorized; check google books)

 

I doubt he is mentioned in SOTW.

[Mekanamom]

Ah good, I did remember correctly about K12:

 

http://www.k12.com/our_approach/core_knowledge_section/

 

Faced with such variation, how can we be sure our children are learning what they need to know? To address this question, the curriculum experts at K12 have consulted with many experts in various fields to gain insights into what experts know and how they structure their knowledge. We’ve also examined many state standards, research reports, and model curriculum programs. In our judgment, one of the strongest, most thoroughly researched models comes from the non-profit Core Knowledge Foundation, founded in 1986 by University of Virginia professor E. D. Hirsch, Jr. (Our own John Holdren worked there as Director of Research and Publications.)

[AnnetteB]

Well...I'm typing as I think, which is never a good thing. So bear with me. I just received a link to a list of the 1000 Books You Must Read Before You Die or some such nonsense. It included A Clockwork Orange--gag moi--and didn't include ANY Austen. Need I say more? ;) So I'll readily admit that tastes vary....

 

But. Tonight I was reading Viking Tales to my kids. Next week we'll start D'Aulaire's Greek Myths and then Black Ships Before Troy, The Wanderings of Odysseus, and In Search of a Homeland. I'm reading these to them now (1) because they're just so durn AWESOME and (2) because I want to prep them to read Hesiod and Homer and Vergil themselves when they're older.

 

I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. No doubt these weren't the only stories goin' 'round back in the day--but these are the stories that are still goin' 'round. To skip ahead more than a few years, Wuthering Heights has never gone out of print. So although The Canon of Western literature may be debated--Moby Dick, for example, will never be required reading in my home, and though I may require my kids to read something by Faulkner and Hemingway, I won't make them pretend to like it--there is some general sense that Great Books exist. There is some consensus that to be educated, to take part in the great conversation, is to be familiar with that canon to some extent.

 

Does that make any sense? Or does that sound just hopelessly snobbish? Because really--I'm not at all snobby in real life. :D

 

Sorry, I don't know how to just pick one line out to comment on. Dd, 14, reading over my shoulder now asks, "Why do I have to read Moby Dick?" :lol: I don't make them read over half the stuff they required when I was in high school, but I thought that she should read Moby Dick because of all the references to it in our culture. I do have a policy of letting the kids put a book down if they really dislike it after a few chapters. This is an interesting thread.