New Study about Virginity Pledges

[Audrey]

Wow. WOW.

I coudn't agree with you less.

That's just, wow.

I absolutly want my boys to wait until they're married. That is God's plan. I find nothing at all 'creepy' about it, and honestly, I had no idea anyone actually found it creepy.

I guess, now I do.

 

 

I'm so glad you posted this because I just about had a conniption fit over that comment. FWIW, I feel the same way (except we differ on the religious aspect.)

 

*I* want *my* boy to wait, too. I'd rather he wait than be a skankin' dog. It's that kind of attitude (that boys should **** around, and girls should be chaste) that pressures boys and men into making very poor choices sometimes.

 

Valuing sexuality isn't just restricted to girls! There's nothing creepy about that!!!!

[mommaduck]

"The physical immaturity of younger women and women's lower status in society may contribute to disproportionate HIV infection rates. Women's lower status may prevent them from having control of their sexual relationships. For example, studies on women's first sexual experience show that over half of young women in Malawi and over 20 percent of young women in Nigeria experienced forced sexual intercourse.6,7 " From the front page of the article I posted along with my comment thus your comments make no sense. Forced intercourse is precisely what I am referring to it happens all the time in countries other than ours-hence the charge of ethnocentrism. I am all for personal responsibility.

 

Generally forced intercourse doesn't allow for time for the girl to ask for condom use. And I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic of the thread.

[mommaduck]

I'm so glad you posted this because I just about had a conniption fit over that comment. FWIW, I feel the same way (except we differ on the religious aspect.)

 

*I* want *my* boy to wait, too. I'd rather he wait than be a skankin' dog. It's that kind of attitude (that boys should **** around, and girls should be chaste) that pressures boys and men into making very poor choices sometimes.

 

Valuing sexuality isn't just restricted to girls! There's nothing creepy about that!!!!

Totally agree...regardless of faith or belief. It is sad that people would look at a guy like that.

[Spy Car]

Yes, and it's also possible to love someone, want to have sex, and yet *not* have sex.

 

It certainly is possible. No argument here.

 

It's not a forgone conclusion that teenagers will have sex, simply because they have the desire to.

 

Ditto.

 

Many of my friends were able to wait for marriage, despite the temptations. And, all of them consider the rewards of doing so more than worth it, even putting spiritual considerations aside. Things such as having avoided pregnancy, diseases, the pain of breakups of intimate relationships, not having sexual memories with other people besides their eventual spouse, etc. Many of those I know who did not wait for marriage deeply regret their decision. I don't know anyone who waited who regrets that.

 

My experience with (male) friends of a religious bent who married as virgins is somewhat different than yours with your friends. My "sample" of friends in this position is rather small, two to be exact, but both have expressed deep regrets and a certain anger that they didn't experience relations with women other than their wives (after marriage) and I believe their marriages suffer for the discontentment.

 

I certainly don't regret my relationships with women prior to marriage, and feel I'm a better husband for the things I learned from these involvements.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I'm not a moral theologian, but my instinct is that the problem is not whether one has sinned twice but whether one has sinned at all. (If you're inclined, see James 2:10.)

 

People make private vows to God all the time. "I'll never drink again." "I'll never cheat again." Sometimes they keep those vows; sometimes they don't. The issue here is not so much the breaking of the vow as the objective fact of the sinful activity that called forth the vow in the first place. People don't make vows like that unless they recognize that the behavior they're swearing off is wrong. In other words, the vow may be well intended, but it is redundant: the behavior is sinful whether or not one swears not to do it.

 

To be honest, purity pledges are not a part of the landscape of my direct religious experience. There's a simple reason for that: fornication (=sex outside of marriage) is always a mortal sin according to the teachings of my church (and all other traditionally orthodox Christian bodies). It is assumed that faithful Catholics will try to avoid mortal sin. We don't need to swear that we won't engage in fornication any more than we need to swear that we won't commit murder. It's a given.

 

When we sin, we have sacramental confession as a remedy for the effects on sin on the soul. Those effects are there, objectively, whether or not we feel guilty about our actions. We also believe that by availing ourselves of the sacraments, God gives us the grace to live holy lives - not that it's easy, but it is possible (Deut. 30:11, Matt. 11:30).

 

So I would not particularly encourage young people to take a special purity pledge but rather to form their consciences according to the teachings of the Church, including John Paul II's Theology of the Body. I would encourage them to pray for the grace to remain pure in mind and body in a culture that discourages purity and modesty. I would encourage them, as far as possible, to avoid near occasions of sin, that is, any thing, person, or situation that is a known source of temptation - and those things naturally vary from person to person. I would encourage study of the vocations of marriage and of singleness, the latter including celibate vocations. And if someone came to me and told me they'd broken a private vow to God in this area of their lives, I would offer my prayers, my advice (if appropriate given our relationship), and then direct them to the sacrament of Confession. That sacrament ends with assurance of God's forgiveness - because that's what Christianity is all about.

 

I'm (obviously) not a moral theologian myself, but my understanding of Judeo-Christian thought is pretty well represented in the scriptural quotations graciously provided by lori earlier.

 

 

This is what the Bible says:

 

Ecclesiastes 5

4 When you make a vow to God, do not delay in fulfilling it. He has no pleasure in fools; fulfill your vow. 5 It is better not to vow than to make a vow and not fulfill it. 6 Do not let your mouth lead you into sin. And do not protest to the temple messenger, "My vow was a mistake." Why should God be angry at what you say and destroy the work of your hands?

 

Matthew 5:37

37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

 

James 5:12

12Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned.

 

 

Lori

[Blessedfamily]

I'm so glad you posted this because I just about had a conniption fit over that comment. FWIW, I feel the same way (except we differ on the religious aspect.)

 

*I* want *my* boy to wait, too. I'd rather he wait than be a skankin' dog. It's that kind of attitude (that boys should **** around, and girls should be chaste) that pressures boys and men into making very poor choices sometimes.

 

Valuing sexuality isn't just restricted to girls! There's nothing creepy about that!!!!

 

:lol::lol: :iagree: If I could stop laughing at the way you phrased it, I'd post more but you errrrrrrrr.......pretty much summed it up.

[The Governess]

You said that the situation in which the pledge was made is faulty, and the pledge is made more out of peer pressure than conviction. I agree, that the intent is really important. That's where true sex ed comes in. Kids should know how very difficult it is to make a promise like this.

 

Agreed. But I don't think people should shy away from making a pledge like this just because it will be difficult to keep. I do think that it should be entered into with a lot of thought and with a true desire to see it through, not just because peers are doing it or it will make mom worry less. Kind of like marriage. People break that pledge as well, for many reasons (some of them very valid, others less so IMO), but that doesn't mean that people should stop making such commitments in the first place.

[Erica in PA]

My experience with (male) friends of a religious bent who married as virgins is somewhat different than yours with your friends. My "sample" of friends in this position is rather small, two to be exact, but both have expressed deep regrets and a certain anger that they didn't experience relations with women other than their wives (after marriage) and I believe their marriages suffer for the discontentment.

 

 

I don't dispute your experience, but I do find it troubling! If your friends abstained for religious reasons as you indicated, I find it difficult to understand why they'd regret having been faithful... unless they no longer hold to their previous beliefs. And secondly, whew, would I be heartbroken to know that my husband wished he'd had sex with other women before he married me!!! That would be a huge slap in the face to me as a woman, apart from the spiritual issues involved. :crying: I would view that as a serious betrayal.

[Laura K (NC)]

Agreed. But I don't think people should shy away from making a pledge like this just because it will be difficult to keep. I do think that it should be entered into with a lot of thought and with a true desire to see it through, not just because peers are doing it or it will make mom worry less. Kind of like marriage. People break that pledge as well, for many reasons (some of them very valid, others less so IMO), but that doesn't mean that people should stop making such commitments in the first place.

 

Your "but" above seems to indicate that you believe I think differently. We are agreeing! A commitment made on strong convictions necessarily is an educated one. I don't think a person can have strong convictions based on peer pressure or coercion. In essence: I don't think the purity ring programs can be rightly blamed, unless the child is relying solely on the program, and not on a firm sense of right and wrong based on scriptural and/or parental and/or societal teaching. We don't learn morality or values (or health, for that matter) from a textbook or pamphlet.

[cricket1178]

My experience with (male) friends of a religious bent who married as virgins is somewhat different than yours with your friends. My "sample" of friends in this position is rather small, two to be exact, but both have expressed deep regrets and a certain anger that they didn't experience relations with women other than their wives (after marriage) and I believe their marriages suffer for the discontentment.

 

I certainly don't regret my relationships with women prior to marriage, and feel I'm a better husband for the things I learned from these involvements.

 

Bill

 

This surprises me somewhat. It certainly has not been my experience. The ones I know who have waited are glad they waited and the ones I know who didn't have many, many regrets. I bet the issue of whether they waited or not is not the cause of discontentment. Probably just an excuse for some desire they have that they shouldn't be having anyway. I guess I'm saying they may not have taken their marriage vows as seriously you. Jmho.:D

[Aggie]

 

My experience with (male) friends of a religious bent who married as virgins is somewhat different than yours with your friends. My "sample" of friends in this position is rather small, two to be exact, but both have expressed deep regrets and a certain anger that they didn't experience relations with women other than their wives (after marriage) and I believe their marriages suffer for the discontentment.

 

Although I (obviously) don't know these 2 men, I wouldn't say they are representative of the majority of Christian men who are virgins when they marry. And I might add, if their marriages are suffering at all, it's NOT because they didn't have other relations before they got married. The anger, resentment, and discontent stem probably from what I would call a shallow personality. JMO, of course. :001_smile:

 

I certainly don't regret my relationships with women prior to marriage, and feel I'm a better husband for the things I learned from these involvements.

 

Bill

 

I'm not arguing here, even if it sounds like it! :lol: But...if our ds gave us this argument for pre-marital sex, we would tell him that he will be the best husband by learning of and working his way through any marital issues with his wife, not another woman. And we will mention the ever-looming STD's and possible pregnancies that may come with sex outside of marriage.;) Neither one of those are healthy to bring into a marriage.:001_smile:

[Blessedfamily]

I think there's plenty of sex in shows which young teens watch. /quote]

 

If there's not enough sex in TV shows geared to young teens and preteens there is certainly enough in MUSIC geared to those groups.

 

I've watched many news shows about preteens and younger buying Britney so and so (and all the rest) and emulating what they see.

 

Just commenting. Peace.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Blessedfamily

[Aggie]

I don't dispute your experience, but I do find it troubling! If your friends abstained for religious reasons as you indicated, I find it difficult to understand why they'd regret having been faithful... unless they no longer hold to their previous beliefs. And secondly, whew, would I be heartbroken to know that my husband wished he'd had sex with other women before he married me!!! That would be a huge slap in the face to me as a woman, apart from the spiritual issues involved. :crying: I would view that as a serious betrayal.

 

I agree. I took me too long to type my post!:001_smile:

[The Governess]

Your "but" above seems to indicate that you believe I think differently. We are agreeing! A commitment made on strong convictions necessarily is an educated one. I don't think a person can have strong convictions based on peer pressure or coercion. In essence: I don't think the purity ring programs can be rightly blamed, unless the child is relying solely on the program, and not on a firm sense of right and wrong based on scriptural and/or parental and/or societal teaching. We don't learn morality or values (or health, for that matter) from a textbook or pamphlet.

 

:lol: This is what I get for trying to discuss things too late at night. You're right, I agree. :D

[cricket1178]

We must have been typing at the same time! :lol: You said it much better than I did.

 

The anger, resentment, and discontent stem probably from what I would call a shallow personality. JMO, of course. :001_smile:

 

 

 

I'm not arguing here, even if it sounds like it! :lol: But...if our ds gave us this argument for pre-marital sex, we would tell him that he will be the best husband by learning of and working his way through any marital issues with his wife, not another woman. And we will mention the ever-looming STD's and possible pregnancies that may come with sex outside of marriage.;) Neither one of those are healthy to bring into a marriage.:001_smile:

 

:iagree:absolutely.

[Laura K (NC)]

keeps fanning the flames. If I'm really hungry and can't get to food, I'm not going to be poring over cookbooks and watching cooking shows. I'm not going to go grocery shopping if I've got to fast for a surgery or something. I'm going to do my best NOT to think about food for a while. I'm going to try to think about something else. Maybe I'll read a book, listen to music (that doesn't mention food!), or pet the dog.

 

A sexualized society puts a hunger into a kid that isn't there naturally. If you aren't hungry and you see a few food commercials on TV, eventually you might think, boy, a Big Mac sounds pretty good right about now, or a Snickers bar, or boy, doesn't that Coors look refreshing? Put a hot, undressed babe at the checkout at the grocery store, in the ads on practically every internet page, and all over the TV, and what you have is a person who suddenly realizes he's hungry. If you'd only leave the poor kid to do his hobbies or grocery shopping in peace, he wouldn't be looking at the opposite sex as a means to an end: his/her appetite.

 

Appetites, like morality, can be nurtured and grown.

[Laura K (NC)]

Who is willing to show the world what he believes in, and will do his best to stand by his convictions, and who is not afraid to take a risk, fall, and get back up again, because the risk itself is based on convictions he believes strongly.

 

I have no use for a wishy-washy man who is afraid to say boo for fear someone might hold him to it, who won't wear a Steelers shirt because they might not win the game, or who can't be bothered with a wedding ring because statistics show that a goodly percentage of marriages end in divorce. A marriage is an oath, but those who opt out of that particular promise aren't usually called old-fashioned. :confused:

 

Yes, the risk is taking oaths that very likely will not be kept. Call me old-fashioned, but to me not keeping solemn promises is extremely bad behavior. I don't make promises i don't think I can keep, and I certainly wouldn't coerce a child of mine into a position where they felt forced to do so.

 

Does this mean you don't teach right from wrong? No. But making false oaths to me falls in to the class of wrongs. And the various quotes posted earlier by Lori shows there are numerous references in the Hebrew and Christian that show making false oaths to God is considered an grave offense in those faith systems.

 

And such oaths are unnecessary since a child can follow their faith (or their internal sense of right and wrong) and remain a virgin without taking oaths, wearing rings, or engaging in public ceremonies.

 

 

 

I didn't suggest anyone should abandon their faith or their beliefs.

 

I'm unaware of a religion that requires "virginity oaths" as part of its practice. And again, taking "oaths" seems to be a discouraged practice from my (limited) understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

 

Bill

[Zelda]

Yes, the risk is taking oaths that very likely will not be kept. Call me old-fashioned, but to me not keeping solemn promises is extremely bad behavior. I don't make promises i don't think I can keep, and I certainly wouldn't coerce a child of mine into a position where they felt forced to do so.

 

Does this mean you don't teach right from wrong? No. But making false oaths to me falls in to the class of wrongs. And the various quotes posted earlier by Lori shows there are numerous references in the Hebrew and Christian that show making false oaths to God is considered an grave offense in those faith systems.

 

And such oaths are unnecessary since a child can follow their faith (or their internal sense of right and wrong) and remain a virgin without taking oaths, wearing rings, or engaging in public ceremonies.

 

 

 

I didn't suggest anyone should abandon their faith or their beliefs.

 

I'm unaware of a religion that requires "virginity oaths" as part of its practice. And again, taking "oaths" seems to be a discouraged practice from my (limited) understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

 

Bill

 

I find the difference between breaking an oath and committing a mortal sin to be a pretty blurry line. I'm neither personally for nor against the oath actually. In my argument I'm believing the oath to be an extension of the commitment to godly principles I imagine are inherent in the religion. I'm basically saying what Drew says, that the oath is extraneous to the idea. I don't know that the presence of the oath creates any stronger a dedication to the spiritual commitment...it merely brings a physicality to it. I don't think it increases your liability to God. I don't believe that's the intention.

[teamturner]

Isn't it one thing to "sin" by engaging in "pre-marital" sex, and another thing entirely to violate ones oath to God? Theologically speaking is this not far worse a crime?

 

Don't such acts put their souls in mortal peril (if you believe such things)? Honest question.

 

Bill

 

I'm no theologian, but I'm pretty sure that all sins are equal in the sight of God. There is not a level or grading of sins. All sin (anything contrary to the will of God) will be forgiven of God when one asks for it in true sincerity. I've broken promises to God. However, I don't feel like I'm in "mortal peril" because I know God has forgiven me of that and every other sin I've ever committed.

[Stacia]

In my experience, one problem with this line of thinking is that when sexual activity is linked with marriage, some young women (and perhaps young men) assume that when a feller really lights her fire, he's the one. If parents are going to go down this road, they must be very careful to help their children understand that the sexual urge is natural and happens, even outside of marriage. This is a very difficult concept for young people who are dealing with raging hormones.

 

...

 

but the "dissonance" I experienced was far more complicated than simply my conscience doing its job, and had long term, tragic consequences. I've come to learn that my experience is very common among my peers who grew up in homes where sex outside of marriage was perceived as sinful. An extreme example is a friend of mine who waited for marriage to have sex, married a charming man who beat the living daylights out of her. She later described herself as "blinded by lust."

 

My point is that our best intentions with our children can have unintended, harmful consequences, and with something as tender and beautiful as our sexuality, we must be very careful.

 

Great point & well-stated.

[Stacia]

A new study in Pediatrics has found that teens who take virginity pledges are just as likely to have sex as teens who don't. However, the study also found that those who pledged virginity but had sex anyway are less likely to use any protection against pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.

 

Do many of the pledges occur in a group-think situation where there is pressure to conform to the group? If so, is the average teen going to have the balls to say no to taking the pledge (when surrounded by peers, a youth leader or two, perhaps a parent or parents)? I would think that refusing the pledge would be a stigma in & of itself. (???) I realize that some teens would be willing to stand up & not take the pledge, but I'm guessing that many just go w/ the flow of the situation & sign up. Is the concept of taking a public/group pledge playing on the very emotions that the teens are being told to suppress (high emotions, peer pressure)? I'm asking because I really don't know how these pledges occur. Are they public? In a group? Done at home alone, but you wear a ring or some other symbol thereafter to show to your peer group (or parents)? The end result is to have something or some way of displaying to others your intentions, correct?

 

High emotion + peer pressure may = making a public virginity pledge.

High emotion + peer pressure may = having premarital sex.

 

Seems like encouraging the behavior in one way & discouraging it in another way. Perhaps the teens who can resist the group think are the ones most likely to resist the temptation of premarital sex.

 

As to the second sentence in the quote, I'd guess that if you take the pledge, there would be a stigma to 'being prepared' in case of failure to keep the pledge. Do you wear the virginity pledge ring & carry a condom with you? Or, is that totally taboo? Think along the lines of parachuting w/out a backup chute -- it's great as long as your chute works, but you could be in for some big trouble if that main chute fails.

 

Just my random thoughts way too late at night....

[Kris]

As for my sons, I have to say I'm horribly uncomfortable discussing it. Why? Because I admit that hearing about adult men that are virgins creeps me out a bit. I don't know that I want my boys to wait, if only because of the stigma that is attached to it.

 

I haven't read all the other responses to this thread, but this got my attention.

 

I have not been uncomfortable at all discussing this with my son. Maybe it's because I've had to talk to him about so many things because his Dad is gone most of the time. I'll admit that there are some questions he's asked that I've had to tell him, "You're going to have to talk to your Dad about that because I don't have a p____." But for the most part, we deal with it when it comes up.

 

As for any stigma that might be attached to a young man being a virgin? That, honestly, never occurred to me. I consider the stigma of fathering a child that you can't support with a girl you don't love -- or won't love for the rest of your life -- to be a much larger issue for everyone involved, especially the baby. Everything is disposable now -- including relationships.

 

For numerous reasons, I hope my son will keep his pants zipped. I've told him this, and I think I've given him good reasons for it, which include how important it is for a child to have two parents, as well as the disease issues. I've also made it clear to him that, while I will love him and any children he may have, he will not receive financial support from us if he decides (and it *is* a decision) to create a family prematurely. If he's old enough to make the decision to father a child, then he's old enough to shoulder *all* the responsibilities and consequences that come with it.

[beansprouts]

Yes, the risk is taking oaths that very likely will not be kept. Call me old-fashioned, but to me not keeping solemn promises is extremely bad behavior. I don't make promises i don't think I can keep, and I certainly wouldn't coerce a child of mine into a position where they felt forced to do so.

 

Does this mean you don't teach right from wrong? No. But making false oaths to me falls in to the class of wrongs. And the various quotes posted earlier by Lori shows there are numerous references in the Hebrew and Christian that show making false oaths to God is considered an grave offense in those faith systems.

 

 

But what is it to you if we choose to make an oath to a nonexistant god? All you can say is "to me" it is wrong. Ultimately it is just your opinion.

[Guest Lorna]

A private pledge made by a teen in their own heart is one thing.

 

The public ones of daughters making pledges to their fathers, I find disturbing on many levels.

 

This haunts me too.

[8filltheheart]

Drew has it right. The Theology of the BOdy (which is well over a 1000 pages!!) is a beautiful testament on Catholic thought on the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit, the gift of sexuality, and the sacredness of marriage and sexuality within that sacramental union.

 

Our kids do not make virginity pledges. Our beliefs are in accord with what Drew posted. Sexual relations outside of marriage are denigrating to the sacredness of marriage and are sinful acts.

 

We teach our children that marriage is sacramental. It is blessed with grace. It is a holy union that is a physical earthly representation of the Triune. Pro-creation is a triune.......father, mother, baby.......father, mother, and God creating the baby's soul at conception. The Holy Spirit is present at conception.

 

Sex isn't just sex. It is a gift of creation. It is a sign of lifelong commitment. It is truly 2 becoming one. It is openness to God working in your life and accepting the life that He blesses you with.

 

Our children know what we believe and that we live according to those beliefs. We teach them birth control is wrong and that we are open to life. They know what the Catholic church teaches.

 

What ultimate decisions they make are between them, God, and their confessor. We cannot control the decisions of other adults.....whether our children or not. We can control the environments that our minors are allowed to put themselves in. Our minor children are not ever in the position to be 100% alone with someone of the opposite sex for extended periods of time and none of them have ever complained.

 

Whether or not our adult ds who has been engaged now for over a yr is sexually active or not......I have never asked, nor do I intend to. It is his life to live at this point.

 

Honestly, the virginity pledges without any foundation are as foolish as the house built upon the sand. Teaching children our values takes their young lifetime. It takes more than a few words. We must practice what we teach. We must support them by guiding their choices. We can't allow them to be put in compromising decisions when they are too young to fully comprehend the seriousness of those choices.

 

Then, when they are young adults, all you can do is pray for them and let them soar or crash as they take control of their own lives.

Edited December 30, 2008 by 8FillTheHeart

[Snickerdoodle]

How and when was the purity ring/pledge/ball started?

[abbeyej]

How and when was the purity ring/pledge/ball started?

 

The first formal organization I know of was True Love Waits in 1993. Although I believe there were other, more grass-roots types of things before that.

[Jenny in Atl]

Perhaps the teens who can resist the group think are the ones most likely to resist the temptation of premarital sex.

 

 

Bingo... or for my value set; sex before they are emotionally and financially able to deal with the consequences.

[Heather in Neverland]

Drew has it right. The Theology of the BOdy (which is well over a 1000 pages!!) is a beautiful testament on Catholic thought on the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit, the gift of sexuality, and the sacredness of marriage and sexuality within that sacramental union.

 

Our kids do not make virginity pledges. Our beliefs are in accord with what Drew posted. Sexual relations outside of marriage are denigrating to the sacredness of marriage and are sinful acts.

 

We teach our children that marriage is sacramental. It is blessed with grace. It is a holy union that is a physical earthly representation of the Triune. Pro-creation is a triune.......father, mother, baby.......father, mother, and God creating the baby's soul at conception. The Holy Spirit is present at conception.

 

Sex isn't just sex. It is a gift of creation. It is a sign of lifelong commitment. It is truly 2 becoming one. It is openness to God working in your life and accepting the life that He blesses you with.

 

 

 

Wow. That was really beautiful.

[beansprouts]

Honestly, the virginity pledges without any foundation are as foolish as the house built upon the sand. Teaching children our values takes their young lifetime. It takes more than a few words. We must practice what we teach. We must support them by guiding their choices. We can't allow them to be put in compromising decisions when they are too young to fully comprehend the seriousness of those choices.

 

Then, when they are young adults, all you can do is pray for them and let them soar or crash as they take control of their own lives.

 

:iagree:

[Blessedfamily]

"She said teens who are religious tend to delay having sex, but that has nothing to do with virginity pledges or abstinence-only sex education programs."

 

 

I think pledges done because everyone in a youth group does them probably won't be too binding. (Though some aren't pledging for that reason.)

 

Someone who caves to peer pressure at youth group will likely cave to peer pressure later at school.

 

This is all a part of a child's spiritual and moral upbringing.

[SquirrellyMama]

The problem I see with these types of pledges are the parents. I think many of them just check out once the kids have taken the pledge. It is the same problem I see with Christian schools. Parents assume their kids are ok in a Christian school so they aren't involved and things go wrong.

[Remudamom]

:svengo:

 

I find this a shocking double standard.

 

And just WHOM are your boys supposed to have sex with?

 

Maybe they could check craigslist.

[dirty ethel rackham]

In my experience, one problem with this line of thinking is that when sexual activity is linked with marriage, some young women (and perhaps young men) assume that when a feller really lights her fire, he's the one. If parents are going to go down this road, they must be very careful to help their children understand that the sexual urge is natural and happens, even outside of marriage. This is a very difficult concept for young people who are dealing with raging hormones.

 

<snip>

 

My point is that our best intentions with our children can have unintended, harmful consequences, and with something as tender and beautiful as our sexuality, we must be very careful.

 

I don't think that holding to the virtue that sex belongs within the confines of marriage is wrong. However, the idea that sexual attraction is only possible with "the one" is where this thinking goes bad. Our young people can understand that sexual urges and attraction are normal, with even the most unsuitable partners. And that those urges do not need to be acted upon. That is where teaching self-control comes in. That is where teaching them to avoid tempting situations comes in.

 

Young people need to know that they can resist temptation, whether it comes in the form of their sexual natures or any other temptation into immoral behavior. They also need to know that God's forgiveness is available to them if they fall.

[beansprouts]

Maybe they could check craigslist.

 

I should be APPALLED!!!

 

 

But this is too **** funny...

:lol:

 

:leaving:

[mommaduck]

I don't think that holding to the virtue that sex belongs within the confines of marriage is wrong. However, the idea that sexual attraction is only possible with "the one" is where this thinking goes bad. Our young people can understand that sexual urges and attraction are normal, with even the most unsuitable partners. And that those urges do not need to be acted upon. That is where teaching self-control comes in. That is where teaching them to avoid tempting situations comes in.

 

Young people need to know that they can resist temptation, whether it comes in the form of their sexual natures or any other temptation into immoral behavior. They also need to know that God's forgiveness is available to them if they fall.

:iagree:

[lionfamily1999]

Sorry, but I had to catch up.... on page six, a zillion to go.

 

:svengo:

 

I find this a shocking double standard.

 

And just WHOM are your boys supposed to have sex with?

I'll hire a hooker for their birthday :001_rolleyes: I would expect with someone they care about.

the bad girls, of course.

Why does a girl have to be 'bad' to have premarital sex?

Right. Not MY daughters. ;)

Or yours either, I'm sure.

 

You would rather your teen son have sex and possibly become a teen parent so he won't be stigmatized?!?

Sure, why not. Sheesh, overreact much?

 

My point was, a man, a full grown man, who is a virgin will be stigmatized. Especially given this society's belief that sex is 'natural' thus 'normal' thus 'healthy.' I don't necessarily agree with that belief, I do agree that engaging in sex is natural, normal and in the right circumstances, healthy; but I do not agree with what that mindset implies. If having sex is natural, normal and healthy, then abstaining must be unnatural, abnormal, and unhealthy.

 

I want my son's to wait until they are ready to confront the possible results of their actions. I want them to wait until they are ready to truly care for their partner. I want them to have feelings involved, other than physical.

 

At the same time, an adult man who is a virgin and not a monk/priest, is looked on as bizarre for the aformentioned reasons; and I fear for my sons that they will be tainted by that stigma.

I believe the exact same pressure is now applicable to girls who delay sex. They are prudes or cold or unpopular.

:iagree:

Really? I have always heard and still do that the girls who "put out" are cheap, easy, used up, just 2nd hand goods... etc.

 

Still never hear bad things about the boys.. they skate away free (hopefully w/o STDs). It's expected of them of course.

At the very least, not where I live. The girls who are virgins well into their teens are looked on, by their peers, and some parents; as abnormal, unhealthily attached to their virginity, and abnormal.

 

The standards are set by the society.

Nah, it's expected of girls these days. It was in the news a fair bit in Canada last year as one of our baseball players was going to be something big in the pro's, and instead got nabbed for statutory rape.

 

This is a link to a Globe & Mail newspaper story which has been reposted on a diff. website. This has explicit details of what young girls are reporting as 'normal' in their schools, not just in disadvantaged areas but in privileged neighbourhoods. I think you had a similar thing in the US with some hockey players in Boston?

 

http://www.thefreeradical.ca/Stolen_childhood1.htm

 

I gather that the emphasis on acts which preserve the hymen is quite prevalent - 'cause that's not 'real'.

 

Sure, anal sex and oral sex was all the rage here last year, among teens. Up until girls (and boys) started getting diagnosed with chlamidia and herpes in their throats. Suddenly, parents started to discuss the danger of this form of 'non-sex'.

[Remudamom]

I should be APPALLED!!!

 

 

But this is too **** funny...

:lol:

 

:leaving:

 

 

Well for Pete's sake, I don't want my sons to be STIGMATIZED because they aren't out having sex. You know I've always wanted to be a grandma, maybe this would be the quickest way to achieve that. You know you can find anything on craigslist.

 

Let's see, how could I word this? "Loose woman with no morals wanted to help my sons develop a reputation (so that no decent girl would want to get near him) and make me a grandmother. Anyone with working female parts will do."

Edited December 30, 2008 by Remudamom

[Nicole M]

I don't think that holding to the virtue that sex belongs within the confines of marriage is wrong. However, the idea that sexual attraction is only possible with "the one" is where this thinking goes bad. Our young people can understand that sexual urges and attraction are normal, with even the most unsuitable partners. And that those urges do not need to be acted upon. That is where teaching self-control comes in. That is where teaching them to avoid tempting situations comes in.

 

Young people need to know that they can resist temptation, whether it comes in the form of their sexual natures or any other temptation into immoral behavior. They also need to know that God's forgiveness is available to them if they fall.

 

I think we're agreeing. I'm not taking this path with my own children. I only wanted to point out that there are many ways that this abstinence-until-marriage thinking can go sideways in the hearts and lives of our children.

 

Another thing that occurred to me, though, is that many who wait will "fall to temptation" in college. I work on a college campus, and drinking is a huge issue across the nation. Statistically, sexual activity on campuses, even Christian colleges, happens while these kids are intoxicated. This leads me to think that it would be wise to take a broad view when teaching self-control, that it is bigger than just about sex.

[beansprouts]

My point was, a man, a full grown man, who is a virgin will be stigmatized. Especially given this society's belief that sex is 'natural' thus 'normal' thus 'healthy.' I don't necessarily agree with that belief, I do agree that engaging in sex is natural, normal and in the right circumstances, healthy; but I do not agree with what that mindset implies. If having sex is natural, normal and healthy, then abstaining must be unnatural, abnormal, and unhealthy.

 

I want my son's to wait until they are ready to confront the possible results of their actions. I want them to wait until they are ready to truly care for their partner. I want them to have feelings involved, other than physical.

 

At the same time, an adult man who is a virgin and not a monk/priest, is looked on as bizarre for the aformentioned reasons; and I fear for my sons that they will be tainted by that stigma.

 

 

 

So what you seem to be saying is that you fear the ridicule that might come along with standing up for one's convictions, going against the crowd, and not giving in to the expectations of society. Do I have this right?

 

(I find it interesting that the phrase "group think" is mainly applied to religious beliefs when in fact we are the ones standing apart from the rest...

 

ETA: ...then again I am learning not to be surprised when I am ridiculed. Christianity is not for wimps.)

Edited December 30, 2008 by beansprouts

[Nicole M]

Well for Pete's sake, I don't want my sons to be STIGMATIZED because they aren't out having sex. You know I've always wanted to be a grandma, maybe this would be the quickest way to achieve that. You know you can find anything on craigslist.

 

I have a friend who is a minister. One of his daughters married, and he kept waiting and waiting and waiting for a grandchild. With the second daughter, he joked that he wasn't paying for any stinkin' wedding until he got the grandbabies up front.

 

If only there had been Craigslist back then! Would have saved the poor man lots of grief.

[beansprouts]

I have a friend who is a minister. One of his daughters married, and he kept waiting and waiting and waiting for a grandchild. With the second daughter, he joked that he wasn't paying for any stinkin' wedding until he got the grandbabies up front.

 

I hope he treated his daughter kindly, in spite of his own selfishness. It is very difficult and painful to want children and not be able to have them.

[lionfamily1999]

I had another thought. I know you all can't wait to hear it :D

 

Sometime during my pregnancy with dd I made the decision to give birth naturally and without medication. This was a choice that IMO needed to be made before I went into labor. Otherwise, when the pain became extreme, and my mind was muddled if I were offered relief, I just might have accepted it. Knowing the answer ahead of time helped me to succeed.

 

I think in the same way our kids may need to make the decision before they are in that moment of weakness.

:iagree:

Wow. WOW.

I coudn't agree with you less.

That's just, wow.

I absolutly want my boys to wait until they're married. That is God's plan. I find nothing at all 'creepy' about it, and honestly, I had no idea anyone actually found it creepy.

I guess, now I do.

 

I'm so glad you posted this because I just about had a conniption fit over that comment. FWIW, I feel the same way (except we differ on the religious aspect.)

40 year old Virgin

 

*I* want *my* boy to wait, too. I'd rather he wait than be a skankin' dog. It's that kind of attitude (that boys should **** around, and girls should be chaste) that pressures boys and men into making very poor choices sometimes.

 

Valuing sexuality isn't just restricted to girls! There's nothing creepy about that!!!!

Jump to conclusions much? I never said I wanted my sons collecting panties, raping and pillaging, or making knotches on head boards. You know, how about NOT ASSUMING I'm trying to make them gigalos BECAUSE I said there is a STIGMA attached to adult male virginity. For that matter, there is an amount of stigma attached to adult female virginity within many segments of society.

 

I do not want my sons laboring under a cloud of 'wierdness' waiting for a mystery woman that may never show. I do not want their right arms swelled to the size of Popeye, because their forty and have yet to meet Miss Right. I do not want them to feel they will burn in hell if they decide they care about some woman and want to have sex.

 

Due to certain issues in our family, my sons know, as does my daughter, that babies do not mysteriously appear on their wedding night. They know that people can have sex outside of marraige. It's a foregone conclusion.

 

Finally, I'm not going to use craigslist or the streets of DC to find a receptive hole for my boys. But, I am not going to treat them like a skanky dog because they had sex with their girlfriend.

It certainly is possible. No argument here.

 

 

 

Ditto.

 

 

 

My experience with (male) friends of a religious bent who married as virgins is somewhat different than yours with your friends. My "sample" of friends in this position is rather small, two to be exact, but both have expressed deep regrets and a certain anger that they didn't experience relations with women other than their wives (after marriage) and I believe their marriages suffer for the discontentment.

 

I certainly don't regret my relationships with women prior to marriage, and feel I'm a better husband for the things I learned from these involvements.

 

Bill

:iagree:

I haven't read all the other responses to this thread, but this got my attention.

 

I have not been uncomfortable at all discussing this with my son. Maybe it's because I've had to talk to him about so many things because his Dad is gone most of the time. I'll admit that there are some questions he's asked that I've had to tell him, "You're going to have to talk to your Dad about that because I don't have a p____." But for the most part, we deal with it when it comes up.

 

As for any stigma that might be attached to a young man being a virgin? That, honestly, never occurred to me. I consider the stigma of fathering a child that you can't support with a girl you don't love -- or won't love for the rest of your life -- to be a much larger issue for everyone involved, especially the baby. Everything is disposable now -- including relationships.

 

For numerous reasons, I hope my son will keep his pants zipped. I've told him this, and I think I've given him good reasons for it, which include how important it is for a child to have two parents, as well as the disease issues. I've also made it clear to him that, while I will love him and any children he may have, he will not receive financial support from us if he decides (and it *is* a decision) to create a family prematurely. If he's old enough to make the decision to father a child, then he's old enough to shoulder *all* the responsibilities and consequences that come with it.

Which is one of the things we've already seen in my family and seen it dealt with well. My son knows, from seeing his parents, his grandparents (on my side) and his aunts and uncles, that marraige is forever, period.

 

I would never expect him to make the same commitment to not having sex.

Well for Pete's sake, I don't want my sons to be STIGMATIZED because they aren't out having sex. You know I've always wanted to be a grandma, maybe this would be the quickest way to achieve that. You know you can find anything on craigslist.

:lol:

[Remudamom]

I guess I just have a more positive view that they will find someone, get married and be happy. Funny how that happens sometimes.

[Nicole M]

I hope he treated his daughter kindly, in spite of his own selfishness. It is very difficult and painful to want children and not be able to have them.

 

She didn't want children! Wasn't even trying! He wanted the grandchildren.

 

Sorry I wasn't clear. It's a funny story, not a sad one.

[beansprouts]

She didn't want children! Wasn't even trying! He wanted the grandchildren.

 

Sorry I wasn't clear. It's a funny story, not a sad one.

 

:tongue_smilie::lol:

[beansprouts]

I guess I just have a more positive view that they will find someone, get married and be happy. Funny how that happens sometimes.

 

I wonder if part of the problem also is that we pressure children to delay marriage. I see no problem with my young adults falling in love, marrying, and supporting each other through college. In fact I think that could help them to remain strong in an immoral environment.

[Pretty in Pink]

My point was, a man, a full grown man, who is a virgin will be stigmatized. Especially given this society's belief that sex is 'natural' thus 'normal' thus 'healthy.' I don't necessarily agree with that belief, I do agree that engaging in sex is natural, normal and in the right circumstances, healthy; but I do not agree with what that mindset implies. If having sex is natural, normal and healthy, then abstaining must be unnatural, abnormal, and unhealthy.

 

You said that you "don't necessarily agree with that belief." To what belief are you referring? In your previous sentence you referred to "society's belief that sex is 'natural' thus 'normal' thus 'healthy." We all agree that sex is natural, normal and healthy. I assume you "don't necessarily agree with the belief" that men who save themselves for marriage are unnatural, abnormal and unhealthy, yet in your original post you said that hearing of such men "creeps me out a bit."

 

I don't know that I want my boys to wait, if only because of the stigma that is attached to it.

 

So are you saying that you would otherwise desire that your boys wait, but since it creeps you out to think about that, they should probably just go ahead and do it? Do you want your girls to wait? Why are you subscribing to a mindset that you disagree with?

 

Honestly I think there is something unnatural, abnormal and unhealthy about you apparent aversion to male abstinence. :confused:

[lionfamily1999]

So what you seem to be saying is that you fear the ridicule that might come along with standing up for one's convictions, going against the crowd, and not giving in to the expectations of society. Do I have this right?

 

(I find it interesting that the phrase "group think" is mainly applied to religious beliefs when in fact we are the ones standing apart from the rest...

 

ETA: ...then again I am learning not to be surprised when I am ridiculed. Christianity is not for wimps.)

Then, perhaps, I'm just not that convicted where virginity is concerned. My husband is a decent, good man, who had partners before we were married (I don't know how many, but I do know of four). He never treated the girls shabbily, they got their calls in the morning, and their dinners and all that entails. They broke it off. His conviction, that women are not mere holes with which to enjoy himself, was one he stuck by. While his friends thought he might be gay, because he refused trains, etc. He stood by them (his morals/convictions/whatever, not his friends, that would've been...). I am more concerned that my sons see women/girls as fellow human beings and treat them accordingly. I am more concerned that they realize the responsibility sex entails. I do not want them to fear sex or to place it on some pedestal. I don't want them to see it as the Holy Grail of adulthood. I don't want them to get married so they can have sex. I do not want more importance placed on something that is fun, enjoyable and bonding, than I believe it merits.

Edited December 30, 2008 by lionfamily1999

[lionfamily1999]

You said that you "don't necessarily agree with that belief." To what belief are you referring? In your previous sentence you referred to "society's belief that sex is 'natural' thus 'normal' thus 'healthy." We all agree that sex is natural, normal and healthy. I assume you "don't necessarily agree with the belief" that men who save themselves for marriage are unnatural, abnormal and unhealthy, yet in your original post you said that hearing of such men "creeps me out a bit."

 

 

 

So are you saying that you would otherwise desire that your boys wait, but since it creeps you out to think about that, they should probably just go ahead and do it? Do you want your girls to wait? Why are you subscribing to a mindset that you disagree with?

 

Honestly I think there is something unnatural, abnormal and unhealthy about you apparent aversion to male abstinence. :confused:

Oh, I get it now! Pardon me for being honest.

 

Adult virgin males creep me out.

 

Sorry that my reaction to adult virgin males creeps people out. :001_rolleyes:

 

It's so funny, because people claim they want input, honest opinions, etc; and then when they disagree they jump down your throat. Your response would be the EXACT response I fear for my sons. The unwillingness to accept the opinions of someone different from you. The sheer incredulousness at someone's pov differing. The idea that, someone cannot express an aversion to something without being called unnatural is EXACTLY what society does today to those who choose to wait. They are considered brain washed, strange, different and all those things equal wrong. Interestingly, I don't give two flips if someone else wants to give their kids chastity belts or the like. I don't really care what someone else teaches their child where sex is concerned. I don't really care if they make sex the almighty, putting it on a pedestal, making it the unnattainable dream. Whatever floats their boat. I just find it rather ironic that people who would buck society and the 'norms' would be so against a thought process that ran contrary to their own. I think it says a lot that people laboring as the minority in a country full of sex, reviving from a sexual revolution, would point fingers, or attack someone of a different opinion.