Man or bear?

[Katy]

There’s a TikTok going around asking if a man would rather leave his daughter alone in the woods with a man or a bear.  The conversation afterwards about how women feel daily, even with something as mundane as walking to their cars at night, is fascinating. 
 

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRwjunUa/

[Katy]

The first comment… “People would believe me if I said I was attacked by a bear.”

[gardenmom5]

What kind of bear?  black bear, usually aren't an issue. . . . 
Grizzly - no freaking way.

[Heartstrings]

I’d definitely take my chances with the bear.  The bear might attack, but it would be fear based on its part and quick, not preplanned.  A quick death is no guarantee with a strange man, there are plenty of worse things, especially alone in the woods.  
 

Now, might the man happen to be a perfectly nice guy?  Sure.  It’s really a crap shoot though, isn’t it.  

[Katy]

I suspect that statistically, bears are much safer.  It might depend on the location of the forest. 

[Faith-manor]

30 minutes ago, Katy said:

I suspect that statistically, bears are much safer.  It might depend on the location of the forest. 

Sadly, this is very likely true.

[Catwoman]

I think it's kind of sad that people would trust a bear more than a man.

Most men aren't rapists or child molesters.

You guys can stay out there with the grizzly. I'm taking my chances with the human.

[Kuovonne]

Am I the only one who thinks that the man could be helpful? Does that mean there is something wrong with how I view the world?

[Catwoman]

Just now, Kuovonne said:

Am I the only one who thinks that the man could be helpful? Does that mean there is something wrong with how I view the world?

I think we were posting at right about the same time. I agree with you. 

[Laura Corin]

OK. I understand the extrapolation, but I meet men in the woods all the time and don't think twice about it. That's very different,  to me, from a dark street. 

[Catwoman]

Just now, Laura Corin said:

OK. I understand the extrapolation, but I meet men in the woods all the time and don't think twice about it. That's very different,  to me, from a dark street. 

Yes, and even on a dark street, if the man isn't actively following you or acting weird, I'm sure you wouldn't be paranoid about him, either.

[Katy]

Just now, Kuovonne said:

Am I the only one who thinks that the man could be helpful? Does that mean there is something wrong with how I view the world?

No. Most people in the world want to think of themselves as good. Only 10% of people have something approaching a personality disorder, and only about 2% are malevolent. I probably have a more suspicious view because I was raised by a cop and always had a police radio in my house, and because we’ve been foster parents. So I’ve been exposed to more of the bad than most people. 

So I wouldn’t say that there’s something wrong with how you view the world. But I would say if you haven’t experienced this kind of daily fear, you’ve lead an extremely privileged life. And good for you. I hope in the future everyone can be so privileged. 

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I suspect that statistically, bears are much safer.

I suspect you're wrong.  

[Catwoman]

Just now, Katy said:

No. Most people in the world want to think of themselves as good. Only 10% of people have something approaching a personality disorder, and only about 2% are malevolent. I probably have a more suspicious view because I was raised by a cop and always had a police radio in my house, and because we’ve been foster parents. So I’ve been exposed to more of the bad than most people. 

So I wouldn’t say that there’s something wrong with how you view the world. But I would say if you haven’t experienced this kind of daily fear, you’ve lead an extremely privileged life. And good for you. I hope in the future everyone can be so privileged. 

See, I view it differently. I don't think most women are living in "daily fear" of men, and if they are, they really need to seek psychological help to try to overcome that irrational fear, because it would be horrible to live that way. It's one thing to be aware of your surroundings and to be watchful, but to be so fearful that you would actually prefer to be in the woods with a grizzly bear instead of a man seems more than a little extreme.

If, as you say, about 2% of people are malevolent (I have no idea, but I'm using your numbers here,) it would seem pretty paranoid to be so ridiculously fearful of one man in the woods, and I say this as someone who has been attacked by a man when I was younger. One bad man does not mean that most other men aren't safe to be around in the woods.

  

 

[rebcoola]

Their are less Bear attacks a year than their are violent crimes by men per day.   Bears pretty much leave you alone if you have some basic knowledge men aren't that predictable.  I'm not in general scared of men but yeah a random strange bear is just a better bet.

[Carrie12345]

6 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

If, as you say, about 2% of people are malevolent (I have no idea, but I'm using your numbers here,) it would seem pretty paranoid to be so ridiculously fearful of one man in the woods,

What percent of bears are driven to hurt humans unprovoked?

[Katy]

5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

See, I view it differently. I don't think most women are living in "daily fear" of men, and if they are, they really need to seek psychological help to try to overcome that irrational fear, because it would be horrible to live that way. It's one thing to be aware of your surroundings and to be watchful, but to be so fearful that you would actually prefer to be in the woods with a grizzly bear instead of a man seems more than a little extreme.

If, as you say, about 2% of people are malevolent (I have no idea, but I'm using your numbers here,) it would seem pretty paranoid to be so ridiculously fearful of one man in the woods, and I say this as someone who has been attacked by a man when I was younger. One bad man does not mean that most other men aren't safe to be around in the woods.

  

 

Right. Constant fear would be a problem. And I just googled, the uppermost result was a quote from Wikipedia on a 2011 Spanish study of 30 countries that said 2.4% of men and 1.8% of women admitted to rape in the past year. And I didn’t click through to read sources. So you might be right. 

My line of thinking is that people are sexually assaulted by other people daily. But bear attacks are very rare even where bears are common.  I’m aware of places in the Arctic circle where they reportedly have to kill an average of 2 polar bears for attempting to attack humans per year. But bear attacks are much more rare than rape. There might be several logical errors there, but statistically I bet it holds. 

[pinball]

2 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

What percent of bears are driven to hurt humans unprovoked?

Ask @Katy

She’s the one throwing out random statistics.
 

Lies, damned lies, and statistics that pull people out of their ear

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

What percent of bears are driven to hurt humans unprovoked?

Unprovoked? Outside of polar bears in the Arctic I’ve only heard of bear attacks when they are habituated to humans feeding them or getting between a mama and cub. 
 

Here’s a detailed article. I’ll come back and summarize after school pickup if someone doesn’t beat me to it: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44341-w

[Heartstrings]

When you tell your beautiful 16 year old daughter to be careful leaving work after dark, are you worried about bears or a man?? What about at the gas station or rest area?  Running after dark?  
 

When you get your keys out and ready and peak in the back seat before getting your car, are you concerned about a man or a bear? 

 

Not all men, but enough to cautious about strange ones.  
 

Most people are good.  But no one lets strangers babysit for a reason. 

Most people are good, but you don’t pick up hitchhikers for a reason.  

Most people are good, but how many of us don’t allow sleepovers? 

Edited April 23 by Heartstrings

[pinball]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

My line of thinking is that people are sexually assaulted by other people daily. But bear attacks are very rare

My line of thinking is that people are in close proximity of other people constantly.

But people AREN’T around bears at that level at all…and that if they are, bear assaults might be much more common

[Catwoman]

7 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

What percent of bears are driven to hurt humans unprovoked?

We have black bears in our yard all the time, and I'm not afraid of them. I mean, I'm not out there hand feeding them, either, but I don't worry about them. But I wouldn't mess with a grizzly or even a brown bear -- and the original post talked about a man leaving his daughter out in the woods, and a child might not know how to react to any kind of bear.  if I was leaving a child out in the woods, I would still take my chances with the man being safe, rather than a bear, just as I would if I was the one out in the woods.

[Catwoman]

Just now, pinball said:

My line of thinking is that people are in close proximity of other people constantly.

But people AREN’T around bears at that level at all…and that if they are, bear assaults might be much more common

Yes, and this thread was originally about a child being left in the woods. A child is way smaller and more vulnerable than an adult, and also may not have any clue as to how to react to wildlife.

[pinball]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

We have black bears in our yard all the time, and I'm not afraid of them

OK, Snow White 

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

When you tell your beautiful 16 year old daughter to be careful leaving work after dark, are you worried about bears or a man?? What about at the gas station or rest area?  Running after dark?  
 

When you get your keys out and ready and peak in the back seat before getting your car, are you concerned about a man or a bear? 

 

Not all men, but enough to cautious about strange ones.  

I would think most people would also be wise to be cautious around strange bears.

This thread was about being out in the woods, not in a gas station or a rest area or on the street.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, pinball said:

OK, Snow White 

I'd spend more time replying to you, but I have seven hungry dwarves to feed and I haven't started dinner yet. 😉 

[pinball]

6 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

most people would also be wise to be cautious around strange bears

Did you see the ignorant people who pulled the baby bear cubs OUT OF A TREE and took pictures with them?!

[SanDiegoMom]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

When you tell your beautiful 16 year old daughter to be careful leaving work after dark, are you worried about bears or a man?? What about at the gas station or rest area?  Running after dark?  
 

When you get your keys out and ready and peak in the back seat before getting your car, are you concerned about a man or a bear? 

 

Not all men, but enough to cautious about strange ones.  
 

Most people are good.  But no one lets strangers babysit for a reason. 

Most people are good, but you don’t pick up hitchhikers for a reason.  

Most people are good, but how many of us don’t allow sleepovers? 

This to me sounds like a crippling amount of fear as opposed to normal caution, tbh.   I wouldn't want to live in such fear, and I don't think such fears are statistically grounded in reality. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence  

[Heartstrings]

I do think it can be taken too far.  I’ve been out with groups of women, usually homeschool moms, who will glare at and chatter about any man who comes in the vicinity.  I remember one time then stopping to glare at a man who was fully ignoring us, because they thought he was “suspicious” and didn’t belong at a park.  A park where people fished in the river and a park with several walking paths.  I thought that was a bit much, men can just exist and not every many is dangerous.  Most aren’t, especially if they are actively leaving you alone.  
 

But that doesn’t really change that when violence is done to a woman it’s most often at the hands of a man and we don’t know which ones. 

Edited April 23 by Heartstrings

[pinball]

4 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

we don’t know which ones. 

It’s usually the one you’re married to, living with or having sex with.

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

This to me sounds like a crippling amount of fear as opposed to normal caution, tbh.   I wouldn't want to live in such fear, and I don't think such fears are statistically grounded in reality. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence  

You seriously take no precautions for safety?  You don’t park under lights if you’re leaving after dark, or make sure to have your keys out? 
You let your kids go to whoever’s house and spend the night?   

[EKS]

3 minutes ago, pinball said:

It’s usually the one you’re married to, living with or having sex with.

The vast majority of the time.

It is highly unlikely that a random man who happens to be in the woods and comes across a random human female (it isn't clear to me how old this person is supposed to be) is going to do anything bad to her.  Even if he has a history as a domestic violence perpetrator.  Because the key word there is domestic.

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

You seriously take no precautions for safety?  You don’t park under lights if you’re leaving after dark, or make sure to have your keys out? 
You let your kids go to whoever’s house and spend the night?   

Precautions are different from fear, though. You can take sensible precautions like that without actually being afraid. 

 

[JustEm]

57 minutes ago, Katy said:

So I wouldn’t say that there’s something wrong with how you view the world. But I would say if you haven’t experienced this kind of daily fear, you’ve lead an extremely privileged life. And good for you. I hope in the future everyone can be so privileged. 

That is simply not true though. Not living in fear of men doesn't mean your life is privileged. It can simply mean you are not a person who lives in fear. 

I have been sexually assaulted. It happened in highschool at a friend's house by her brother. Despite that incident I've never been fearful of random men simply because I'm alone with them. I've been on alert in certain situations and have separated myself from men but it was not fear based. I am constantly aware of my surroundings and I know how to defend myself if I need to. But I am not afraid to walk down a sketchy street alone at night (not that I go out of my way to do it.)

My dh, who is a professional martial artist and has fought in amateur cage fights is more uneasy on an unfamiliar street at night than I am.  

 

[Heartstrings]

9 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Precautions are different from fear, though. You can take sensible precautions like that without actually being afraid. 

 

I never said anything about fear.   I just pointed out that those “sensible precautions” we all take every day are predominantly precautions against the actions of a strange man.  You are highly unlikely to ever be attacked walking to your car or getting gas.  But if you are it’s far likelier to be by a man than a woman, and very, very unlikely to be a wild animal. 

 

When we say “sensible precautions” we are leaving unsaid that they are mostly precautions against a man with bad intentions.  

Edited April 23 by Heartstrings

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I never said anything about fear.   I just pointed out that those “sensible precautions” we all take every day are predominantly precautions against the actions of a strange man.  You are highly unlikely to ever be attacked walking to your car or getting gas.  But if you are it’s far likelier to be by a man than a woman, and very, very unlikely to be a wild animal. 
When we say “sensible precautions” we are letting unsaid that they are mostly precautions against a man with bad intentions.  

I'm just not sure what any of this has to do with the topic of a man choosing to leave his daughter alone in the woods with a bear or a man.

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Catwoman said:

I'm just not sure what any of this has to do with the topic of a man choosing to leave his daughter alone in the woods with a bear or a man.

If it’s a random man, you have no idea of his intentions or proclivities or what he might do in a situation where no one was watching.  A bear is a bear.  They aren’t inherently interested in humans, they don’t have dark fantasies or hidden attractions.      They might kill you, but they also might wander away, the certainly won’t r*pe or torture you or lock you in a basement.  

[lauraw4321]

This is a rabbit trail (bear path?) but I really wish I'd never heard of Israel Keyes. Before knowing about him, I really wasn't ever scared hiking alone, backpacking with just other women, but sheesh. He ruined that for me. Is he a ridiculous outlier? Yes. But did he make me realize that just because I'm out in nature the people I encounter are likely to be good and/or safe? Yeah. 

It's like lightening. I take a lot of precautions around lightening when I'm outside. I also take precautions when I'm out in nature. If there's a lightening storm, I'm scared. If I encounter a man who does anything aggressive or angry, I'm scared. And the fear I feel is about the same in both of those scenarios. 

[lauraw4321]

3 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

If it’s a random man, you have no idea of his intentions or proclivities or what he might do in a situation where no one was watching.  A bear is a bear.  They aren’t inherently interested in humans, they don’t have dark fantasies or hidden attractions.      They might kill you, but they also might wander away, the certainly won’t r*pe or torture you or lock you in a basement.  

Yup. If it's a grizzly or polar bear, then I chose the man. No hesitation.

If it's a black bear... I hesitate. 

I'm not sure if it's rational, but definitely an interesting thought experiment.

[Heartstrings]

Funny.  If you take precautions against bears in the woods, that’s just smart, sensible. But if you take precautions against men with bad intentions you are “living in fear”.  

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, lauraw4321 said:

Yup. If it's a grizzly or polar bear, then I chose the man. No hesitation.

If it's a black bear... I hesitate. 

I'm not sure if it's rational, but definitely an interesting thought experiment.

I’d probably prefer to take my chances with the man than get between a mother bear and her cubs. 

[Carrie12345]

45 minutes ago, Katy said:

Unprovoked? Outside of polar bears in the Arctic I’ve only heard of bear attacks when they are habituated to humans feeding them or getting between a mama and cub. 
 

Here’s a detailed article. I’ll come back and summarize after school pickup if someone doesn’t beat me to it: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44341-w

Honestly, it was more of a rhetorical question 😆.

41 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

We have black bears in our yard all the time, and I'm not afraid of them. I mean, I'm not out there hand feeding them, either, but I don't worry about them. But I wouldn't mess with a grizzly or even a brown bear -- and the original post talked about a man leaving his daughter out in the woods, and a child might not know how to react to any kind of bear.  if I was leaving a child out in the woods, I would still take my chances with the man being safe, rather than a bear, just as I would if I was the one out in the woods.

Yeah, we’re in black bear country, too. Our backyard borders completely wild forest. I do not enjoy being surprised by them, but of course we don’t mess with them.

40 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Yes, and this thread was originally about a child being left in the woods. A child is way smaller and more vulnerable than an adult, and also may not have any clue as to how to react to wildlife.

The specific TikTok mentioned is in response to the general question going around the internet to women - would you rather run into a bear or a man in the woods - and some men’s outrage to the response, which has been bear. Bears almost never attack unprovoked. Women (as a whole) are frequently attacked by men (as a whole) in comparison.

[lauraw4321]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

I’d probably prefer to take my chances with the man than get between a mother bear and her cubs. 

Agree with that.  I assumed the scenario was a single bear. Mother and cubs, different story. 

Still an interesting thought experiment.

[JustEm]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Funny.  If you take precautions against bears in the woods, that’s just smart, sensible. But if you take precautions against men with bad intentions you are “living in fear”.  

Since I believe I'm the only one who said 'living in fear's I'm going to assume you are referring to my post. But I was replying to someone saying another poster lives a privileged life for not experience daily fear. 

One can take precautions against men without fear.

[lauraw4321]

1 minute ago, Carrie12345 said:

The specific TikTok mentioned is in response to the general question going around the internet to women - would you rather run into a bear or a man in the woods - and some men’s outrage to the response, which has been bear. Bears almost never attack unprovoked. Women (as a whole) are frequently attacked by men (as a whole) in comparison.

I've run into bears in the woods and I've run into men in the woods. My reaction was more fearful with the bear, but not much.

I've never stayed up at night worried about a bear coming back to attack me because it was pissed off. That has happened to me backpacking. 

[pinball]

6 hours ago, Katy said:

There’s a TikTok going around asking if a man would rather leave his daughter alone in the woods with a man or a bear.  The conversation afterwards about how women feel daily, even with something as mundane as walking to their cars at night, is fascinating. 
 

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRwjunUa/

 

17 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Honestly, it was more of a rhetorical question 😆.

Yeah, we’re in black bear country, too. Our backyard borders completely wild forest. I do not enjoy being surprised by them, but of course we don’t mess with them.

The specific TikTok mentioned is in response to the general question going around the internet to women - would you rather run into a bear or a man in the woods - and some men’s outrage to the response, which has been bear. Bears almost never attack unprovoked. Women (as a whole) are frequently attacked by men (as a whole) in comparison.

The first post in the thread doesn’t say this…it says the TikTok is asking if a man would rather leave his daughter alone in the woods with a man or a bear. Which, IMO, is completely different than what I bolded in your thread.

[prairiewindmomma]

I live in a state with an estimated 30,000 black bears. There have been three reported attacks ever, none fatal. There are regular bear sightings around me and we are all in the forests regularly. Strange bear > strange man any day. 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I live in a state with an estimated 30,000 black bears. There have been three reported attacks ever, none fatal. There are regular bear sightings around me and we are all in the forests regularly. Strange bear > strange man any day. 

Except "black bear" wasn't specified. 

I wouldn't want to mess with a grizzly bear, a brown bear, or a polar bear. And again, the OP was supposedly about a man leaving his daughter alone in the woods, and I think a young girl would be a lot safer with a human who could lead her to safety than a bear that might or might not be aggressive toward her. Most kids probably have no clue as to how to react to seeing a big bear out in the woods and it could be very scary for them at the very least, and very dangerous at worst, particularly if the kid panicked and startled the bear into becoming aggressive.

[Rosie_0801]

So, do men trust other men more than they trust bears?

[Catwoman]

18 minutes ago, pinball said:

 

The first post in the thread doesn’t say this…it says the TikTok is asking if a man would rather leave his daughter alone in the woods with a man or a bear. Which, IMO, is completely different than what I bolded in your thread.

Honestly, the entire TikTok topic seems to be more of the usual, "Look how scary and dangerous men are! FEAR MEN!" rhetoric that I see so often online.