Musings on perception of affluence and acceptable spending

[Scarlett]

Sometimes people are judgy some are jealous, some just say dumb things. 
Another thing I hear that bugs me is, ‘I have worked my butt off for everything I have.’

I usually respond. ‘You are hard worker. Sadly millions work just as hard with nowhere near the return. ‘

[Faith-manor]

My mother gets that at her church all the time. She goes to France every year to spend 3 months with my sister and brother in law. They pay all her expenses when she arrives, so a plane ticket is all she needs. It isn't that expensive if she does not fly on holidays. She also has her dental work done there because it is 1/4th the cost of having it done locally.

The rude comments always start coming for two weeks prior to her departure, and then they are extra snide (not just one or two people, but about 10 people actually) for 2 weeks when she gets back. Ugh. Why can't  they mind their own business. Usually there are several "if you didn't travel like a rich person, you would have more money to give the church" comments. Thankfully, not the pastor. He is non confrontational and refuses to go tell people to shut up, but he does support her and reminds her that time is short (she is 80 now), and her first responsibility for maintaining a relationship is her family not the church so go have a wonderful time.

We have so few people now within our inner circle, that we no longer deal with it. My tiny circle are all people who live modestly in order to prioritize travel. Sometimes we take vacations together. Mark's work colleagues are all frequent travellers. So now we don't have anyone except my ever-jealous-of-every single-thing-we-do brother who makes inappropriate comments. However, we are down to a text once a month, see each other once or twice a year for 10 minutes tops kind of relationship despite him living 1 block away. Such a relief. 

I don't know why people comment on what others are doing or spending nor why they care. I do know that our society seems to be increasingly less polite, and more sparky, so I am learning to not share personal information with anyone but that inner circle. "What are you doing next week?" Me: "Same old, same old". But what I am actually doing is going to Quilt Con with my niece in law. The subject of the eclipse came up last week with my brother during our February text. I said, "Yes. It is sad that this area is not remotely close to the path of totality. Sad to miss it." Meanwhile, we have a rental in the boondocks in NW Arkansas, in the path of totality and will be hosting grandma and grandpa astronomy camp for our 4 and 8 year old grandsons. My brother has no idea. 

It is sad that we can't just chit chat without being so guarded. But, I find the only way to avoid his snarkiness is to be extreme guarded.

[Pawz4me]

9 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

Travel is not my thing, but I’m happy for people who get to do their thing.

Same. We traveled a lot when the boys were young, and I mostly hated every second of it. For health and other reasons DH and I have stopped traveling. We haven't spent a night away from home since before the pandemic, and I haven't missed it at all. But I could give several examples of snide comments people have made about the things we do spend money on while seeming to be totally oblivious of the fact that they spend in areas that we wouldn't. It's the overall lack of awareness and the "all about me/if you don't make the same choices I do you're wrong" attitude that bugs me. They're otherwise intelligent people who just don't seem to grasp that we all get to sail our own boat, and that it's perfectly okay if someone chooses to sail in a different direction than them.

Edited February 19 by Pawz4me

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

This attitude towards others' spending has been around far longer than Facebook has. I can't remember a time when it wasn't, TBH.

That is true, but I find it different now.

Before 2010 (yes, I was late to the party), nearly all my interactions were in person.  I saw a lot more "behind the scenes' of people's lives, and friends who moved didn't share as much.  Now, everyone puts their best on social media: their kids accomplishments, their trips, their family celebrations...and the quantity can feel like a lot more than it was before.  So at holiday time, it can look like we're the only ones not traveling to France, living it up in remote parts of England, hanging out at a ski resort or going on a cruise.  For a person who already isn't satisfied with their own life, it's a hammer. And if someone posts something rarely and it's always something fabulous, it can shift what a person thinks about them. 

I think the perception issue got a LOT bigger with social media.  It's hard to be close enough to everyone you're connected to in order to see the bigger picture.

[SKL]

35 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I think the perception issue got a LOT bigger with social media.  It's hard to be close enough to everyone you're connected to in order to see the bigger picture.

This is one of the reasons I keep my "friend" group relatively small (compared to others on facebook).  I do share trip photos and such, because my whole reason for being on facebook is to stay connected with family and friends I don't meet in person much.  Travel is one of the most interesting things I do, from my perspective.  I generally only post major highlights (and sometimes I don't have time to post even them).  As for my kids' amazingness, I stopped posting that sort of stuff when they were still in primary school, but I do post the occasional photo to show that they do in fact have a life - a few sports and band action shots, a few rites of passage, quirky kid/dog shots, and the extremely rare photo of them actually smiling.  😛  Anyone hurt by seeing us having fun is free to unfriend or snooze me.  As my friends have experience with teens, it should go without saying that (a) we have lots of less pleasant moments and (b) my kids would kill me if I posted any of that, LOL.

TBH I find other people's stock travel photos boring, especially if they post dozens of them at a time.  But that's a me problem.  😛

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

That is true, but I find it different now.

Before 2010 (yes, I was late to the party), nearly all my interactions were in person.  I saw a lot more "behind the scenes' of people's lives, and friends who moved didn't share as much.  Now, everyone puts their best on social media: their kids accomplishments, their trips, their family celebrations...and the quantity can feel like a lot more than it was before.  So at holiday time, it can look like we're the only ones not traveling to France, living it up in remote parts of England, hanging out at a ski resort or going on a cruise.  For a person who already isn't satisfied with their own life, it's a hammer. And if someone posts something rarely and it's always something fabulous, it can shift what a person thinks about them. 

I think the perception issue got a LOT bigger with social media.  It's hard to be close enough to everyone you're connected to in order to see the bigger picture.

I think I've narrowed down my participation in social media to a minimum. The people I interact with don't tend to care much & those that do tend to keep it to themselves. I think a large part of it is that once I hit 50 several years ago, I stopped caring what people think for the most part, so it's highly likely I just filter this kind of junk out. I have a great capacity to ignore internet "noise."

[saraha]

Dd20 is dealing with this. She is about to spend a semester abroad. She is paying for it totally by herself with a combination of money she earned working and her first student loan. She has worked since she was 15, and the last two semesters worked two part time jobs to save up for this trip. We are immensely proud of her, but she has definitely gotten negative comments from friends like “must be nice for mommy and daddy to pay for you” etc. Through smart decisions and hard work, she has paid for every bit of her schooling herself and it hurts her when people say things like that. Especially when she knows a lot of her friends are getting help from their parents.

No one has said anything to dh or me about it, but I know his brother and sister are wondering how this is getting paid for.

Edited February 20 by saraha

[Scarlett]

18 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

My mother gets that at her church all the time. She goes to France every year to spend 3 months with my sister and brother in law. They pay all her expenses when she arrives, so a plane ticket is all she needs. It isn't that expensive if she does not fly on holidays. She also has her dental work done there because it is 1/4th the cost of having it done locally.

The rude comments always start coming for two weeks prior to her departure, and then they are extra snide (not just one or two people, but about 10 people actually) for 2 weeks when she gets back. Ugh. Why can't  they mind their own business. Usually there are several "if you didn't travel like a rich person, you would have more money to give the church" comments.

I am always stunned at the things that people in your world say and do.  I have never ever heard anyone say anything like that.  I can’t even imagine anyone being negative about an 80 year old mother spending time with her daughter over seas.  I would have to slow blink at someone who said something like that.  So strange.  

[SKL]

59 minutes ago, saraha said:

 “must be nice for mommy and daddy to pay for you” etc.

I was thinking last night about this thread.  Wondering why it strikes such a nerve with me.

I think it's the idea behind the comments, implying that one person is getting more than they deserve.

On one hand, I can certainly list advantages that I didn't work for.  Main ones being a stable family, genetic good health, a strong IQ, and being born in the USA.  These are things that shouldn't piss other people off though.  Should they?

Having been raised working class (well, more from my mom who was from plain poverty and abuse), I internalized the gut reaction that those who have more must have gotten a free leg up.  Because the alternative is "they must be working harder / smarter than my family," and who wants to think that?  With experience and maturity, I came to understand it and balance it out.  Fact is, there are people who have a free leg up.  Others bust their ass, sacrifice, and take risks.  But I think most successful people have a combination of all of these.

It's unfortunate that hard-working people have to hear put-downs like the above.  I guess I'd encourage your dd to consider why those people think that way.  Maybe, rather than saying "I'm studying abroad next semester," she might frame it as "I was able to save enough from my jobs to afford a semester abroad."  At the same time, if we're honest, she probably does have some advantages she didn't work for too, and it doesn't hurt to acknowledge those.

Edited February 20 by SKL

[Scarlett]

49 minutes ago, saraha said:

Dd20 is dealing with this. She is about to spend a semester abroad. She is paying for it totally by herself with a combination of money she earned working and her first student loan. She has worked since she was 15, and the last two semesters worked two part time jobs to save up for this trip. We are immensely proud of her, but she has definitely gotten negative comments from friends like “must be nice for mommy and daddy to pay for you” etc. Through smart decisions and hard work, she has paid for every bit of her schooling herself and it hurts her when people say things like that. Especially when she knows a lot of her friends are getting help from their parents.

No one has said anything to dh or me about it, but I know his brother and sister are wondering how this is getting paid for.

Honestly, I think the ‘must be nice ‘ comment needs to be called out……like, ‘it is nice and I hope you can be happy for me.  Comments like that sound like you are not happy for me and might be jealous.’

[Scarlett]

@SKL you and I were posting at the same time and our thoughts are similar I think. 

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

Dd20 is dealing with this. She is about to spend a semester abroad. She is paying for it totally by herself with a combination of money she earned working and her first student loan. She has worked since she was 15, and the last two semesters worked two part time jobs to save up for this trip. We are immensely proud of her, but she has definitely gotten negative comments from friends like “must be nice for mommy and daddy to pay for you” etc. Through smart decisions and hard work, she has paid for every bit of her schooling herself and it hurts her when people say things like that. Especially when she knows a lot of her friends are getting help from their parents.

No one has said anything to dh or me about it, but I know his brother and sister are wondering how this is getting paid for.

Similar but different. Our dd took a couple classes overseas. It was actually cheaper schooling for us--on each trip she accumulated more class credits than she could hope to do in the same amount of time in a regular class at home. 

It's nobody else's business, and I admire your dd so much for the work she has done to seize this incredible opportunity. Good for her. 

[mommyoffive]

1 minute ago, Harriet Vane said:

Similar but different. Our dd took a couple classes overseas. It was actually cheaper schooling for us--on each trip she accumulated more class credits than she could hope to do in the same amount of time in a regular class at home. 

It's nobody else's business, and I admire your dd so much for the work she has done to seize this incredible opportunity. Good for her. 

How did your dd do that?

[Harriet Vane]

46 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

How did your dd do that?

These were study abroad classes offered by her university. The reason they were cheaper is that she received credit for more than one class (usually 2-3) for the time she spent overseas. She did two 3-week classes and one 6-week class that ended up giving her a second minor as well as a boost to her regular minor and major requirements. It was just an extremely efficient way to pack in a lot of credits while also spending time in multiple countries (Honduras, Belgium, France, Netherlands, and Spain). 

[Harriet Vane]

Just now, Harriet Vane said:

These were study abroad classes offered by her university. The reason they were cheaper is that she received credit for more than one class (usually 2-3) for the time she spent overseas. She did two 3-week classes and one 6-week class that ended up giving her a second minor as well as a boost to her regular minor and major requirements. It was just an extremely efficient way to pack in a lot of credits while also spending time in multiple countries (Honduras, Belgium, France, Netherlands, and Spain). 

Also cheaper because they were regular uni classes, so the extra expense was airfare. While abroad she ate super-cheap because of the way it was set up by the university. In Honduras and Spain food was provided as part of the package. In the other Europe trip the students cooked together. Dd used her own money to pay for her adventures outside of the classes. 

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, Harriet Vane said:

These were study abroad classes offered by her university. The reason they were cheaper is that she received credit for more than one class (usually 2-3) for the time she spent overseas. She did two 3-week classes and one 6-week class that ended up giving her a second minor as well as a boost to her regular minor and major requirements. It was just an extremely efficient way to pack in a lot of credits while also spending time in multiple countries (Honduras, Belgium, France, Netherlands, and Spain). 

We had a similar experience.  DD spent half a summer in the Czech Republic, took three classes during that time which compressed her overall degree by an entire semester, and only had to pay for the (group, negotiated cheap rate) airfare.  Since it was technically a half semester, the tuition was much cheaper.  I had had no idea that this could be so economical—I’m glad she took the initiative and pursued it as I would have assumed that it was absolutely unaffordable without even checking.

[mommyoffive]

2 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

We had a similar experience.  DD spent half a summer in the Czech Republic, took three classes during that time which compressed her overall degree by an entire semester, and only had to pay for the (group, negotiated cheap rate) airfare.  Since it was technically a half semester, the tuition was much cheaper.  I had had no idea that this could be so economical—I’m glad she took the initiative and pursued it as I would have assumed that it was absolutely unaffordable without even checking.

Was that through her university too??

[Carol in Cal.]

13 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Was that through her university too??

Yes.  They had a formal program, group rates, and arrangement all made.  It was very turnkey.  

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

We had a similar experience.  DD spent half a summer in the Czech Republic, took three classes during that time which compressed her overall degree by an entire semester, and only had to pay for the (group, negotiated cheap rate) airfare.  Since it was technically a half semester, the tuition was much cheaper.  I had had no idea that this could be so economical—I’m glad she took the initiative and pursued it as I would have assumed that it was absolutely unaffordable without even checking.

THIS.

One of my biggest regrets is that I didn't study abroad myself. I'm confident there was no way--I was desperately poor at the time. Really, truly, desperately poor. But I do wish I had had the option to live in England for a year.

So when my kids got to college age, it was important to me that they study abroad. We assumed it would be a huge financial sacrifice and we were astounded to find that it was cheaper than the regular college expense. 

The bottom line--always check. There really may be a way. 

[SKL]

Just now, Harriet Vane said:

One of my biggest regrets is that I didn't study abroad myself. I'm confident there was no way--I was desperately poor at the time. Really, truly, desperately poor. But I do wish I had had the option to live in England for a year.

So when my kids got to college age, it was important to me that they study abroad. We assumed it would be a huge financial sacrifice and we were astounded to find that it was cheaper than the regular college expense. 

The bottom line--always check. There really may be a way. 

One or both of my kids want to do this.  I'm glad it came up on this thread, because I too would have assumed it was gonna be super expensive.

[Bootsie]

Today, many universitieis have special programs and grants to help students study abroad, which can make it much more economical than a couple of decades ago.  Even without financial aid, it can be cheaper than taking a class at one's university.  I am teaching in a program in Europe this summer for which students pay about $5500 if they are degree-seeking students at the university offering the program or about $6500 if they are not.  This includes 6 hours of tuition, 6 weeks of accommidations, most meals and field trips (it does not cover airfair).  But, it would cost one of my students more than $6000 to take one of the 3-hour classes that I am teaching at my home university this summer (without any room and board).  So, studying abroad, the student can get twice as many credit hours, room and board, and some extras  for the same price as studying at their home university.  

(Oh yes, and for all my friends who are envious of my six-week trip to Europe--I will be working, teaching these students.)  

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited February 27 by Drama Llama

[Faith-manor]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I am always stunned at the things that people in your world say and do.  I have never ever heard anyone say anything like that.  I can’t even imagine anyone being negative about an 80 year old mother spending time with her daughter over seas.  I would have to slow blink at someone who said something like that.  So strange.  

I feel that way too. We did not encounter this until we moved back to this part of the state to be near elderly parents..we had lived in other parts of Michigan, Indianapolis, Portland Oregon, Newburg, Oregon, Titusville, Fla, and I went to college at Oberlin, so that part of Ohio, and never encountered the rude, judgey, in your face behavior that the locals here have in spades. It is so jolting. But, I think part of it is that her church is big, the pastor is influential, and it is IBLP/Gothard adjacent with practices that 100% meet the criteria of a cult. When a cult has that much influence around a community, I think it greatly affects the dynamics of the surrounding culture. Even mainstream churches like the UMC, USA Pres, have to send their leadership out here to bring their churches in line, literally discipline them at times, because they veer towards the behavior of her church. I know why she doesn't leave. The last of the friends she still has in the world are there in her widow support group. She is very attached, and she is 80 which is just an awful time in life to become isolated because you gave up on your people group. That bunch of nuts though really worry me! The children's Sunday School classes have a policy that every single Sunday, children as young as 3 nuts be reminded that they had sinned that week, and they might die in their sleep and go to hell unless they prayed right now for god to forgive them for all their sins that week and promise to try harder to do better. Little kids. And they give them coloring pages based on Dante's Inferno. I consider it VERY abusive.

So ya. The day we leave this crazy hole, and move away for good, will be the day I leap for joy! It wears on me constantly trying to counter those messages, and deal with the neighbors.

[Faith-manor]

20 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

I studied abroad in England for a full year, a bajillion years ago.  I paid my school the same tuition, room and board after financial aid that I would have paid to attend my university.  My university then gave me money back once I arrived in England. That money covered my airfare, food (since my university in England didn't have a dining program), and living expenses.  I lived frugally and had enough left to travel over the extended spring break all over Europe.  My understanding is that even if I had had been on full aid, I still would have gotten that money back.

I am not saying that this is still true, or true at every school, but in my case, studying abroad cost less, even taking into account that I lost hte income I made from working about 20 hours a week in college.  I didn't get a huge amount of financial aid, in college, but I also understand that kids who did found the same thing, including some kids for whom the money they received back was more than their total student and family contribution to tuition, room and board.  

My sister moved to France to complete her master's degree. It was 1/4th the cost of that degree here including the cost of living in a quad dorm with a kitchen so she could cook her own food.

[mommyoffive]

I studied abroad in college and glad I did.  I was not well off.  On Pell Grants in college.  Was on welfare when I was born due to having a single mom who was a teacher who had to take time off to take care of me.   

[QueenCat]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I The children's Sunday School classes have a policy that every single Sunday, children as young as 3 nuts be reminded that they had sinned that week, and they might die in their sleep and go to hell unless they prayed right now for god to forgive them for all their sins that week and promise to try harder to do better. Little kids. And they give them coloring pages based on Dante's Inferno. I consider it VERY abusive.

 

What the ever-loving double hockey sticks! 

[BusyMom5]

I am very happy for you and hope you have a wonderful trip!  I hope Dh and I are able to do that eventually.  The word "afford" is so strange - I think most people can afford any single thing they wish, but most of them can not afford everything they wish.  That leaves us all making our own value judgments as we decide how to alot our money. 

There are lots of choices that others make that I think are foolish - buying today without thought for retirement tomorrow. I'm sure they don't always understand my choices either.  In the end, I only need to worry about myself.  Don't let the comments of others get you down!

 

 

[Faith-manor]

5 hours ago, QueenCat said:

What the ever-loving double hockey sticks! 

Genuinely, yes, that is the response. It is just mind boggling.

[Soror]

On 2/20/2024 at 7:31 AM, saraha said:

Dd20 is dealing with this. She is about to spend a semester abroad. She is paying for it totally by herself with a combination of money she earned working and her first student loan. She has worked since she was 15, and the last two semesters worked two part time jobs to save up for this trip. We are immensely proud of her, but she has definitely gotten negative comments from friends like “must be nice for mommy and daddy to pay for you” etc. Through smart decisions and hard work, she has paid for every bit of her schooling herself and it hurts her when people say things like that. Especially when she knows a lot of her friends are getting help from their parents.

No one has said anything to dh or me about it, but I know his brother and sister are wondering how this is getting paid for.

Dd1 hears from others that it must be nice to spend Daddy's money. It's nice to be rich yada yada. She's not sure exactly where that has come from. We do not live in a fancy neighborhood with a fancy house. It is newer but modest in design and size (1650 upstairs +1150 downstairs). She dresses pretty nice but buys most things used and pays for it herself. My clothing budget isn't high so anything extra she pays for with her own money. We just had a convo yesterday about people's perceptions. I think it is good to reinforce looking rich and being rich are not the same thing. Most of us cannot afford to be both. Having financial security is much more important than status symbols and don't be fooled by thinking people have more money by what they buy. I'm trying to reinforce to her those points. Fingers crossed that they stick. It is a good lesson that looks are deceiving. 

16 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

I am very happy for you and hope you have a wonderful trip!  I hope Dh and I are able to do that eventually.  The word "afford" is so strange - I think most people can afford any single thing they wish, but most of them can not afford everything they wish.  That leaves us all making our own value judgments as we decide how to alot our money. 

There are lots of choices that others make that I think are foolish - buying today without thought for retirement tomorrow. I'm sure they don't always understand my choices either.  In the end, I only need to worry about myself.  Don't let the comments of others get you down!

Awwww thanks! 

Afford is a strange word. Yes, unless we're Bill Gates we've all got to make choices and often it is not cut and dry. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Soror said:

 

Afford is a strange word. Yes, unless we're Bill Gates we've all got to make choices and often it is not cut and dry. 

This is such a spot on statement. We assisted all four of kids with their college bills so they would only have small, federal student loans. One could say we afforded it I guess. But it wasn't affordable. I was penny pinching at the grocery store, and eventually took on a Fine Arts job to get us through it all. It was not affordable, and we weren't anything in the ballpark of "rich". It was something we chose to do, and to prioritize even if it was difficult.

I don't judge my neighbor who absolutely loves plants, landscaping, you name it. Her yard is her everything. She takes tremendous joy in it. I would never choose to spend that kind of money on plants and landscaping, and rocks, and all the things. But that is all good. Everyone is different. And why live life without any joy? There just isn't a lot of point in accumulating money for the express sake of living in misery. Traveling, quilting, and sewing makes me happy so I prioritize those things. Going to France to see her youngest daughter and darling son in law, makes mom happy so she lives frugally so she can enjoy that. It's all good.

 

[SanDiegoMom]

I have to say I usually don't judge people's choices, but I did judge a former friend.  She thought the amount I spent on my daughter's ballet was insane.  It is, admittedly, A LOT. But her redlines were NOT to spend money on extracurriculars, and TO drive a Mercedes, never pay less than 500 dollars on shoes, and her last purse purchase (before our friendship ended) was a $3500 purse.  I would never have said anything to her face about it, but I definitely think those were poor judgement calls.