Article on AP--Taxpayers paid at least $90 million for AP tests that many students failed.

[cintinative]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/18/us/college-board-ap-exams-courses.html?unlocked_article_code=1.AU0.f6xn.skDKw7mWHz9s&smid=url-share&fbclid=IwAR1BM_zwfbpKKbqi0X39vHUFYdqOEcU7MWQQ6YsDLAvN6zHCL1-PWIEhhrE

FYI Article gifted by SWB

"Why Is the College Board Pushing to Expand Advanced Placement?
This year, taxpayers paid the nonprofit at least $90 million for A.P. tests that many students failed."

[cintinative]

The comments are interesting and reflect some discussion here (on the chat board maybe) about the differences between AP and honors courses. One teacher related that she/he was not allowed to assign a full text in the "honors" English class.  

[Roadrunner]

All I will say is AP courses are the only ones where any real learning is happening in our local public school. This is a sentiment I hear over and over and over again from a lot of parents. While local private schools have moved away from APs and designed really amazing courses, the situation at these schools is very different. Parents are voting with their tuition money and quality is high. If our school were to ever drop APs, it would be a disaster for academic kids. 
I mean college board is now a new villain everybody loves to hate. They can’t do anything right. If you expand the program, you are criticized. If you open it only to high performing kids, then you are discriminating against poor. 
While I would rather have my kids at a top private with quality non AP classes, given the $55k per year it costs to attend such schools around here, I will take AP expansion in publics. AP standards are better than no standard. 

[Nart]

It is really unfortunate that schools do not publish the results of each AP subject taken at the school. At my son's public high school they only report how many students took AP tests and what percentage of those student received at least a 3. I would like to know the pass rate of each AP subject. I can understand why a teacher might not want this to be published if you are teaching a subject with a low pass rate like APUSH that has a pass rate of around 47%, but the schools could publish the national pass rate by the school pass rate. So if 70% of students at a school are passing APUSH then that is impressive, but if 70% of students are passing Calc BC then it isn't as impressive since the pass rate is 78%. It would be really helpful to have this information before enrolling in the class.  

Right now how many students exactly passed at each individual test at each school is obfuscated. My son's school lists 300 students took 650 AP tests and 81% received a score of at least a three. But it isn't clear how many passes out of the 650 tests. Maybe many students received a 3 on one test but a 1 or 2 on another.  Perhaps many student took AP art 

In many districts I think more and more students are going to get pushed into AP classes because of the "honors for all" movement. There is a movement in many districts across the country to no longer have leveled classes in high school. So instead of offering English 9 w/support, English 9, and English 9 Honors districts are offering only English 9 honors and everyone takes that class. I don't quite understand how you can call it honors but it makes it sound like the district is doing a great job. So once everyone takes Honors English then many are going to get tracked into AP classes. 

[Roadrunner]

3 hours ago, Nart said:

It is really unfortunate that schools do not publish the results of each AP subject taken at the school. At my son's public high school they only report how many students took AP tests and what percentage of those student received at least a 3. I would like to know the pass rate of each AP subject. I can understand why a teacher might not want this to be published if you are teaching a subject with a low pass rate like APUSH that has a pass rate of around 47%, but the schools could publish the national pass rate by the school pass rate. So if 70% of students at a school are passing APUSH then that is impressive, but if 70% of students are passing Calc BC then it isn't as impressive since the pass rate is 78%. It would be really helpful to have this information before enrolling in the class.  

Right now how many students exactly passed at each individual test at each school is obfuscated. My son's school lists 300 students took 650 AP tests and 81% received a score of at least a three. But it isn't clear how many passes out of the 650 tests. Maybe many students received a 3 on one test but a 1 or 2 on another.  Perhaps many student took AP art 

In many districts I think more and more students are going to get pushed into AP classes because of the "honors for all" movement. There is a movement in many districts across the country to no longer have leveled classes in high school. So instead of offering English 9 w/support, English 9, and English 9 Honors districts are offering only English 9 honors and everyone takes that class. I don't quite understand how you can call it honors but it makes it sound like the district is doing a great job. So once everyone takes Honors English then many are going to get tracked into AP classes. 

Our school publishes pass rate by subject every year. 

[amiesmom]

Our local high school (my oldest two attend) no longer offers any honors classes. You can choose AP if it's offered or you are in the general ed class for that subject. My kids have both taken some of their AP courses just to avoid being in general ed for the subject (because it's so abysmally taught). Because our school is a Title I school, we pay $5 per AP exam, the school pays the rest, so almost every student in the class takes the exam. Our pass rates are not great, depending on the subject there might only be 2 or 3 kids who pass (math and science mostly, other subjects have higher pass rates). 

[Alice Lamb]

 It's not the College Board; it's the local schools inappropriately placing students.  Several years ago, an administrator for my local district was quoted in the local paper as saying "we celebrate our 2's" because a student in the AP class  who gets a 2 on the exam supposedly learns more than a student in a similar regular education class.  That means failing to learn the content of the course, although the grading system probably gives the student a B or a C on his or her transcript.

About the same time, a neighborhood child with APD complained about the special ed class she where she had been placed.  She was a serious student, who read well, but processed oral information slowly.  The one-size fits all high-school special ed "accommodated" by doing mostly oral work; worse than no accommodations for her.  Most of the students had both reading and serious behavioral issues.  She said the class was a waste of her time.  The only option the district gave her and her parents was to move her directly to AP.  She moved.  The family was happy with her C grade in the AP section and a kid who actually liked the material being covered and her classmates.  I never asked if she even took the exam, but I expect that the school would have insisted even if she said she didn't feel ready.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Alice Lamb
typo: "no" corrected to "not"

[kokotg]

3 hours ago, Alice Lamb said:

 It's not the College Board; it's the local schools inappropriately placing students.  Several years ago, an administrator for my local district was quoted in the local paper as saying "we celebrate our 2's" because a student in the AP class  who gets a 2 on the exam supposedly learns more than a student in a similar regular education class.  That means failing to learn the content of the course, although the grading system probably gives the student a B or a C on his or her transcript.

 

Meanwhile my husband has a whole bunch of kids in his AB calc classes who desperately want to drop his class and aren't allowed to because they did poorly in pre-calc and were recommended for "on-level calc" or stats but signed a waiver so they could do the AP class anyway. 

I think it's very complicated. Some of it is certainly the college board (can there be any reason other than pushing unprepared kids to take the exam anyway for moving the registration deadline from spring to fall? Honestly asking--maybe there is, but I can't think of one). Some of it is high schools and the assorted incentives for getting AP enrollment numbers up. But it's all tied up with how competitive the college admissions game has gotten at many colleges...kids (and their parents) feel like need to load up on APs to be competitive at a lot of colleges, and...they're not wrong in a lot of cases. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

Taxpayers pay for AP exams? Our students (who I realize are taxpayers) each have to pay their own testing fee - home schoolers AND public schoolers. Whether they pass or fail. 

(On the other hand, the community college near us has a dual enrollment deal that offers 1 free STEM course *if the student earns a C or higher; all students pay to sign up, and then get a refund if they "pass." That makes good sense to me, both as a parent AND as a taxpayer.)

[Roadrunner]

42 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Meanwhile my husband has a whole bunch of kids in his AB calc classes who desperately want to drop his class and aren't allowed to because they did poorly in pre-calc and were recommended for "on-level calc" or stats but signed a waiver so they could do the AP class anyway. 

 

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. 
At our school you have to have three years of math in high school to graduate. If you are starting with integrated 1, then you can take 1, 2, 3 and be done. Nobody will force you into any AP calculus. Now if you stated 9th grade in precalculus, then you can do one year of stats (AP or regular) and I believe Calculus AB will be a must because I don’t think there is any other math to fulfill the three year requirement. But honestly nobody at our school starts 9th grade with precalculus and if they did, those would be the sort of kids that would want to take AP.

As far as dropping classes go, you can’t drop a class at our high school after the second week because you are required to have certain number of classes per year and you only have the first two weeks to make up your mind on what you are taking. This has nothing to do if the class is AP or not. You couldn’t drop regular history either. So if you have your three years of math done and you are taking AP Calculus AB and want to drop, you can do so during the first two weeks and replace it with whatever class you want. After two weeks all opportunity to change schedules disappears. 
 

 

[kokotg]

4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. 
At our school you have to have three years of math in high school to graduate. If you are starting with integrated 1, then you can take 1, 2, 3 and be done. Nobody will force you into any AP calculus. Now if you stated 9th grade in precalculus, then you can do one year of stats (AP or regular) and I believe Calculus AB will be a must because I don’t think there is any other math to fulfill the three year requirement. But honestly nobody at our school starts 9th grade with precalculus and if they did, those would be the sort of kids that would want to take AP.

As far as dropping classes go, you can’t drop a class at our high school after the second week because you are required to have certain number of classes per year and you only have the first two weeks to make up your mind on what you are taking. This has nothing to do if the class is AP or not. You couldn’t drop regular history either. So if you have your three years of math done and you are taking AP Calculus AB and want to drop, you can do so during the first two weeks and replace it with whatever class you want. After two weeks all opportunity to change schedules disappears. 
 

 

At DH's school the options for kids who take pre-calculus in 11th grade (or before, which is not uncommon, as it's a STEM magnet school) are stats, calc AB, calc BC, or on level calculus...which is a slower paced non-AP calculus class that I gather is offered mostly to give kids an option who find themselves in that situation but not ready for AP calc. There's no college credit involved, but it prepares them for college calculus and it's also a way to say they took calculus without the pressure of an AP class. So the recommendation for a kid who struggles in pre-calc in 11th grade or before is to choose either stats or on-level calculus. But lots of them (or, in most cases, probably their parents) insist on taking AP calc anyway. If they do this against the pre-calc teacher's recommendation, they have to sign a waiver saying they know they weren't recommended for calc but are choosing to do it anyway and that, consequently, they won't be able to drop down to a lower course if they're doing poorly. Whereas if they're recommended for AP and end up struggling, they're allowed to drop down to the lower level calculus after the first semester. So it's not that anyone is forcing anyone into AP calculus; it's the opposite--the school is trying to keep kids out of AP calc if they won't do well in it, but there are a lot of students/parents insisting on it anyway. Again, this is a STEM magnet school in a wealthy, high performing district...with a big, largely south Asian immigrant tech worker population--there are a lot of cultural and socio-economic factors at play here. I'm just pointing out that there's not ONE thing going on with the explosion of numbers in AP classes.

[maize]

40 minutes ago, kokotg said:

At DH's school the options for kids who take pre-calculus in 11th grade (or before, which is not uncommon, as it's a STEM magnet school) are stats, calc AB, calc BC, or on level calculus...which is a slower paced non-AP calculus class that I gather is offered mostly to give kids an option who find themselves in that situation but not ready for AP calc. There's no college credit involved, but it prepares them for college calculus and it's also a way to say they took calculus without the pressure of an AP class. So the recommendation for a kid who struggles in pre-calc in 11th grade or before is to choose either stats or on-level calculus. But lots of them (or, in most cases, probably their parents) insist on taking AP calc anyway. If they do this against the pre-calc teacher's recommendation, they have to sign a waiver saying they know they weren't recommended for calc but are choosing to do it anyway and that, consequently, they won't be able to drop down to a lower course if they're doing poorly. Whereas if they're recommended for AP and end up struggling, they're allowed to drop down to the lower level calculus after the first semester. So it's not that anyone is forcing anyone into AP calculus; it's the opposite--the school is trying to keep kids out of AP calc if they won't do well in it, but there are a lot of students/parents insisting on it anyway. Again, this is a STEM magnet school in a wealthy, high performing district...with a big, largely south Asian immigrant tech worker population--there are a lot of cultural and socio-economic factors at play here. I'm just pointing out that there's not ONE thing going on with the explosion of numbers in AP classes.

But WHY force the kids to stay in the class second semester if they aren't doing well? Why force them to sign that waiver? My guess is it's class size considerations and logistics, but if there are regularly that many who want to drop it seems to me the school could plan for that.

[Roadrunner]

55 minutes ago, kokotg said:

At DH's school the options for kids who take pre-calculus in 11th grade (or before, which is not uncommon, as it's a STEM magnet school) are stats, calc AB, calc BC, or on level calculus...which is a slower paced non-AP calculus class that I gather is offered mostly to give kids an option who find themselves in that situation but not ready for AP calc. There's no college credit involved, but it prepares them for college calculus and it's also a way to say they took calculus without the pressure of an AP class. So the recommendation for a kid who struggles in pre-calc in 11th grade or before is to choose either stats or on-level calculus. But lots of them (or, in most cases, probably their parents) insist on taking AP calc anyway. If they do this against the pre-calc teacher's recommendation, they have to sign a waiver saying they know they weren't recommended for calc but are choosing to do it anyway and that, consequently, they won't be able to drop down to a lower course if they're doing poorly. Whereas if they're recommended for AP and end up struggling, they're allowed to drop down to the lower level calculus after the first semester. So it's not that anyone is forcing anyone into AP calculus; it's the opposite--the school is trying to keep kids out of AP calc if they won't do well in it, but there are a lot of students/parents insisting on it anyway. Again, this is a STEM magnet school in a wealthy, high performing district...with a big, largely south Asian immigrant tech worker population--there are a lot of cultural and socio-economic factors at play here. I'm just pointing out that there's not ONE thing going on with the explosion of numbers in AP classes.

Got it. I misread your post and was thinking college board was responsible for this particular mess, but I see it’s the school’s policy. 

[kokotg]

20 minutes ago, maize said:

But WHY force the kids to stay in the class second semester if they aren't doing well? Why force them to sign that waiver? My guess is it's class size considerations and logistics, but if there are regularly that many who want to drop it seems to me the school could plan for that.

I don't know what that would even look like in a school with a couple thousand kids. Like...those kids would go...where? The AP classes would get smaller and the on level classes would get bigger (that doesn't seem fair either to the teachers or to the students who took the appropriate class to start with)? It's not like you could consolidate the AP classes because that would mean shifting all the kids' OTHER classes around. And you can't just increase the sizes of the lower level classes or invent new ones out of thin air, because it's not as if you have a bunch of math teachers sitting around with free periods waiting on new kids to show up. I just don't see any way it would work, and I don't know that there are any big schools where you're allowed to change your schedule freely whenever you want (and, of course, AP classes are supposed to be college level classes, and you can't switch out in the middle of a college class because you don't like your grade, either). I think the school tries to plan for it by placing students correctly in the first place; if said students insist on placing themselves in a class they're unprepared for, then, yeah...there are consequences. ETA: of course in an actual college class, it wouldn't even be an issue, because they would just say if you didn't pass the placement exam or get permission of the instructor or whatever, you couldn't take the class, period, no matter what your parents wanted...and if you did poorly despite being approved to take the class, you'd still be out of luck if you wanted to drop it.

Edited November 24, 2023 by kokotg

[Farrar]

On 11/23/2023 at 4:25 AM, Nart said:

It is really unfortunate that schools do not publish the results of each AP subject taken at the school. At my son's public high school they only report how many students took AP tests and what percentage of those student received at least a 3. I would like to know the pass rate of each AP subject. I can understand why a teacher might not want this to be published if you are teaching a subject with a low pass rate like APUSH that has a pass rate of around 47%, but the schools could publish the national pass rate by the school pass rate. So if 70% of students at a school are passing APUSH then that is impressive, but if 70% of students are passing Calc BC then it isn't as impressive since the pass rate is 78%. It would be really helpful to have this information before enrolling in the class.  

Right now how many students exactly passed at each individual test at each school is obfuscated. My son's school lists 300 students took 650 AP tests and 81% received a score of at least a three. But it isn't clear how many passes out of the 650 tests. Maybe many students received a 3 on one test but a 1 or 2 on another.  Perhaps many student took AP art 

In many districts I think more and more students are going to get pushed into AP classes because of the "honors for all" movement. There is a movement in many districts across the country to no longer have leveled classes in high school. So instead of offering English 9 w/support, English 9, and English 9 Honors districts are offering only English 9 honors and everyone takes that class. I don't quite understand how you can call it honors but it makes it sound like the district is doing a great job. So once everyone takes Honors English then many are going to get tracked into AP classes. 

Just to be clear, they definitely have this data. As an AP teacher, I can just say there's no way to run an approved AP course at a school that's also a testing center and NOT receive this data (or, at least, have access to it). So they're specifically keeping it from you.

If many courses have poor rates and a single teacher, then I get why. It can easily turn into parents blaming individual teachers. The reasons that students do poorly on AP exams are usually a mix between the class and the student's previous preparation. But still.

[SKL]

My kids are in-between and don't really have another good option.

They are college-bound and need to learn how to write.

Their choices are general English, AP English, and "college now" (community college English courses).

• I assume general English is designed for kids without college aspirations.
• Based on past experience / reports, community college has an even lower standard than AP, but also, your grade in CC will impact your college GPA, which is not the best thing for every 15-17yo teen.

Their teachers have always recommended them for honors / AP although I don't think their writing skills are above average.

I think it would be nice to have a "college prep" course that isn't trying to be an actual college course.  But we don't have that here.

My kids are on the fence about whether or not they will take AP tests this year.  They are not required.

I think it's fair to ask what the College Board is doing with the taxpayer money referenced in the OP.

[Roadrunner]

My community college most definitely has much lower standards than AP. Thanks god my kid self studied for physics C exams after taking CC physics courses. He tells me the only reason he is doing well in university physics now is because of gazillion  AP problems he worked through and not his CC course, which was very computational (this was engineering Calc based physics). He said AP questions were much more conceptual and harder than anything he did at CC. Same goes for English and same goes for history. Now you most definitely can find amazing teachers at CC with super interesting courses, but it’s hit and miss. We have missed almost every single time at our CC. The difference between computer science at our CC and the one he is taking now at UCLA (same first semester since they didn’t transfer due to different programming language) is night and day. Not comparable on rigor at all. 
So in our experience my first vote for quality is an amazing expensive private school locally with limited APs but extraordinary faculty, followed by AP program at our PS, followed by CC, and last choice is PS high school level courses. 
 

I would be good with national standards as opposed to no standards, but in its absence, I will vote for AP any day. 

[Nart]

14 hours ago, Farrar said:

Just to be clear, they definitely have this data. As an AP teacher, I can just say there's no way to run an approved AP course at a school that's also a testing center and NOT receive this data (or, at least, have access to it). So they're specifically keeping it from you.

If many courses have poor rates and a single teacher, then I get why. It can easily turn into parents blaming individual teachers. The reasons that students do poorly on AP exams are usually a mix between the class and the student's previous preparation. But still.

This is what is frustrating - they have this data but most schools in my area of California absolutely do not publish pass rates by subject. At my son's school I actually called and asked the Assistant Principal who is in charge of the AP tests the pass rates for AP Language, APUSH, and AP Spanish. I explained I wasn't sure I wanted to spend $100 on each of the tests if the pass rates were worse than the national average. I think by explaining I was aware APUSH had a pass rate that was below 50% and I merely wanted to know if the school pass rate was higher, she told me the scores (they are all higher than the national average).  She then quickly added that she feels that socio-economic status has a lot to do with the scores and she would expect the scores to be higher that is the population of many of the students in the school. 

Parents should know before forking over $100 what their child's chance is of passing each subject. CC dual enrollment classes are free and if you pass you get college credit.

So far what my son has experienced the AP classes are more rigorous so many students at his school opt out of the AP classes with the teachers who are the toughest graders and take the CC dual enrollment class instead. I prefer my son take the rigorous AP classes but it is frustrating for him to see that some AP teachers at his school are really tough graders. His last APUSH test I think he said the average was 70% on the test and there were only 1 or 2 A's in each of the 3 classes (around 100 students). 

[EKS]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:58 AM, cintinative said:

The comments are interesting and reflect some discussion here (on the chat board maybe) about the differences between AP and honors courses. One teacher related that she/he was not allowed to assign a full text in the "honors" English class.  

This is interesting.  Our experience (at a well regarded public high school) was that the honors courses were far superior to the AP courses.

[Farrar]

8 hours ago, Nart said:

This is what is frustrating - they have this data but most schools in my area of California absolutely do not publish pass rates by subject. At my son's school I actually called and asked the Assistant Principal who is in charge of the AP tests the pass rates for AP Language, APUSH, and AP Spanish. I explained I wasn't sure I wanted to spend $100 on each of the tests if the pass rates were worse than the national average. I think by explaining I was aware APUSH had a pass rate that was below 50% and I merely wanted to know if the school pass rate was higher, she told me the scores (they are all higher than the national average).  She then quickly added that she feels that socio-economic status has a lot to do with the scores and she would expect the scores to be higher that is the population of many of the students in the school. 

Parents should know before forking over $100 what their child's chance is of passing each subject. CC dual enrollment classes are free and if you pass you get college credit.

So far what my son has experienced the AP classes are more rigorous so many students at his school opt out of the AP classes with the teachers who are the toughest graders and take the CC dual enrollment class instead. I prefer my son take the rigorous AP classes but it is frustrating for him to see that some AP teachers at his school are really tough graders. His last APUSH test I think he said the average was 70% on the test and there were only 1 or 2 A's in each of the 3 classes (around 100 students). 

To me, a school that serves a socioeconomically disadvantaged population and has scores that beat the national average in multiple AP courses... it's a no brainer that they should share their data. When I've seen it shared, typically schools publish it alongside the national data (and sometimes district) to give more context.

I have a lot of complaints about the whole AP system (and the College Board is outright evil) but one thing you can't say is that they don't have buckets of data. I didn't even realize how detailed it was until I had the breakdowns for my class last year. It was a lot to comb through.

[SKL]

I too have observed that the AP teachers here are tough graders.  The kids do get a "bump" in the adjusted GPA, so if they get a C in AP biotech it gets 3 points in the adjusted weighted GPA.  But 3 points will still cause them to lose the scholarship they got for having 3.5+ GPA going into 12th.

So, if you're my kid - bright with lots of interests - your choices are (a) be bored senseless in high school or (b) be punished for not having a hyper-focus on school / grades.  I guess we've chosen the latter.

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

To me, a school that serves a socioeconomically disadvantaged population and has scores that beat the national average in multiple AP courses... it's a no brainer that they should share their data. When I've seen it shared, typically schools publish it alongside the national data (and sometimes district) to give more context.

I have a lot of complaints about the whole AP system (and the College Board is outright evil) but one thing you can't say is that they don't have buckets of data. I didn't even realize how detailed it was until I had the breakdowns for my class last year. It was a lot to comb through.

Our school used to publish data for each class by score, so you would see what percentage got what score in which subject. They stopped this a while back and now only publish passing scores which are in line with national averages.

 

One person’s evil is another person’s savior. 😉 If not for college board and AP courses, my PS kid would get zero education at his school. So I will forever be grateful to them. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Roadrunner

[EKS]

With regard to pass rates, my son's high school required kids to take the exams.  Lots of kids would just sit in the exam room and not write anything.  Because of this, I think that pass rates aren't necessarily a good indicator of how much kids are learning in the courses.

AP courses are frequently the only highish level academics any students will see in high school.  Since gifted programs/tracking are seen as bad and AP programs are seen as good, eliminating AP programs will result in no advanced academics for students who need them.  That would not be a good thing.

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Our school used to publish data for each class by score, so you would see what percentage got what score in which subject. They stopped this a while back and now only publish passing scores which are in line with national averages.

 

One person’s evil is another person’s savior. 😉 If not for college board and AP courses, my PS kid would get zero education at his school. So I will forever be grateful to them. 

The way the College Board runs harms education overall and honestly should be illegal. They are a for profit business masquerading as a nonprofit. Some schools run great AP courses. And AP itself is a mixed bag in my view. But if AP existed run by somewhere else, it could potentially be better. Or if it didn't exist, then schools that run great AP programs might well be running great other types of honors programs. That's because great AP programs don't happen because of the College Board. They happen because of pressure from parents and taxpayers who, if AP didn't exist, would pressure schools for other types of honors coursework. I don't accept the premise that AP itself is improving schools because they don't have the data for that. Not by a long shot. And when they try to assert that it does, they tend to misread their own information. Just look at the article that started the thread.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Farrar

[EmilyGF]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Our school used to publish data for each class by score, so you would see what percentage got what score in which subject. They stopped this a while back and now only publish passing scores which are in line with national averages.

 

One person’s evil is another person’s savior. 😉 If not for college board and AP courses, my PS kid would get zero education at his school. So I will forever be grateful to them. 

Same as our experience. The "honors" level teachers taught whatever they wanted. If the US History Honors teacher was into the Civil Rights movement, they might spend a full semester on the 1960s, with few readings and only learning by watching in-class movies.  The AP teachers stick religiously to the syllabus and schedule, assign regular homework, and teach the student how to write.

Our kids' school publishes pass rates and pays for the test for every student who takes it. Interestingly, if a student does NOT sit for the test, they have to pay for the test cost (as the school pushes all students to take the test). We are in a large urban school district.

Emily

[Kassia]

There are a lot of things I don't like about AP classes/tests.  One is that they are tied to school rankings, which results in schools putting a lot of pressure on students to take the classes and exams.  In our district, we pay for exams and there was one exam ds2 didn't want to take because it wouldn't have any benefit for him if he passed and his teacher bullied him into taking it.  It looked good for the school and the teacher for ds to take it since he would definitely score well.  Because of the bullying, we ended up paying for ds to take the test.  

Our kids have had some great AP classes and some truly awful ones.  It really all depends on the teacher.  And those teachers would have been awful or great in regular or honors classes as well, I'm sure.  

[Nart]

1 hour ago, EmilyGF said:

Same as our experience. The "honors" level teachers taught whatever they wanted. If the US History Honors teacher was into the Civil Rights movement, they might spend a full semester on the 1960s, with few readings and only learning by watching in-class movies.  The AP teachers stick religiously to the syllabus and schedule, assign regular homework, and teach the student how to write.

Our kids' school publishes pass rates and pays for the test for every student who takes it. Interestingly, if a student does NOT sit for the test, they have to pay for the test cost (as the school pushes all students to take the test). We are in a large urban school district.

Emily

Ditto! The rigorous classes at my son's school are the AP classes as well as honors classes in a bioscience academy. To get into the bioscience academy you had to have good grades and write 4 essays. The only accept 36 students each year. So all the students are motivated and it is taught at a really high level and they have wonderful opportunities to do interesting labs. I don't know much about bioscience or the labs but my son was in a Clinical Trial for allergies at UCLA and had to be monitored by a doctor for three hours. While they were waiting he took out his bioscience homework including his notes and his lab homework. The doctor told him she could help him with the assignment he was missing. She was really impressed and said she didn't have the opportunity to do these types of labs until college. 

So unless you are in some type of specialized program, AP classes are often your only hope in public schools, even supposedly high ranking schools, to be have high quality instruction that follows a format that requires you to write and analyze. I don't care if it is formulaic because it is so much better than what other classes are doing. My son is in 11th grade and has already taken at least 24 units at a CC. While some of the classes have been interesting to him, none are as rigorous as his AP classes and bioscience academy classes and the amount of time spent in completing the classes in no way compare to the amount of work required in a rigorous AP class. They don't offer AP world history at his school so he took honors. While it had some interesting topics it no way did it cover as much as a AP world history class or offer as much required writing. 

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

The way the College Board runs harms education overall and honestly should be illegal. They are a for profit business masquerading as a nonprofit. Some schools run great AP courses. And AP itself is a mixed bag in my view. But if AP existed run by somewhere else, it could potentially be better. Or if it didn't exist, then schools that run great AP programs might well be running great other types of honors programs. That's because great AP programs don't happen because of the College Board. They happen because of pressure from parents and taxpayers who, if AP didn't exist, would pressure schools for other types of honors coursework. I don't accept the premise that AP itself is improving schools because they don't have the data for that. Not by a long shot. And when they try to assert that it does, they tend to misread their own information. Just look at the article that started the thread.

Speaking with my friends who are close to 60 now (because obviously I didn’t go to school in USA), their own experience was the same - APs were the only classes they learned. The rest was garbage. The reason AP program is great is because there is a standard. It has nothing to do with parents who sadly just want a grade and a paper and careless what learning is happening as long as their kid has 4.0. So I careless about college board. I really do. But I vote with both my feet for a standards based education with exams at the end which forces kids to actually open a book and forces teachers to actually teach content and is standardized across all test takers. We have a kid in a supposedly great public and it’s a disaster outside of AP. We have plenty of non AP courses and each one of them is a waste of time. Economics, philosophy… among many other electives. Why didn’t they design something worthwhile? 🤷‍♀️. What I wouldn’t give for that Econ course to have an AP alternative. Those courses are fantastic. The Econ we have? Teaches absolutely nothing. 

[Farrar]

It's sad to me that people can see these stats about how AP coursework did not improve the actual lives of these lower socioeconomic status kids and how it siphoned off money from schools (many low income kids have their exams paid for by their districts). Pass rates on these exams haven't budged. This is the reality. These kids didn't learn. More middle class schools often have better AP programs, yes. But these kids aren't passing because they learned more. They're passing because they had better preparation on so many levels, some of which comes from a stronger overall school system. They'd learn more in any good class. And if they don't have other good classes, that's because the school is stacking it such that those are primarily the AP courses. The logic that therefore the AP courses are creating better education is flawed. The College Board is not improving your kid's education.

[Roadrunner]

Take away APs from low income schools and they will be left with even worst. 
Tell kids who aren’t prepared not to take APs and you are accused of denying opportunities from low income kids. 
Now the new trick is DE, because schools figured out there is no accountability for those. They are taught on school campus here and are just as easy as any non AP high school course and every kid gets an A! So now the school can claim that its disadvantaged population is succeeding in DE because there is no standardized test at the end of the year to actually show them what kids learned. And public universities here are forced to accept credit. So win win for everything and everybody. Who cares about learning. Unlike AP test that makes you face the reality of your knowledge, nobody can question what was learned in DE. 
Our schools have every opportunity to develop “good” classes. They fail every time. We don’t have AP Econ, so no $$$ are taken away from regular Econ and yet regular Econ teaches you nothing, but gives you a shiny A on transcript. APs aren’t the reason schools don’t have high quality sadly. Too many low quality teachers and uninterested students and parents who only care for grades are the problem. 
 

[Nart]

6 hours ago, Farrar said:

It's sad to me that people can see these stats about how AP coursework did not improve the actual lives of these lower socioeconomic status kids and how it siphoned off money from schools (many low income kids have their exams paid for by their districts). Pass rates on these exams haven't budged. This is the reality. These kids didn't learn. More middle class schools often have better AP programs, yes. But these kids aren't passing because they learned more. They're passing because they had better preparation on so many levels, some of which comes from a stronger overall school system. They'd learn more in any good class. And if they don't have other good classes, that's because the school is stacking it such that those are primarily the AP courses. The logic that therefore the AP courses are creating better education is flawed. The College Board is not improving your kid's education.

I really don't agree. The College Board has improved my kid's education by creating AP classes. Even if students only score a 2 on the AP test many of those students benefit from being in an AP class, particularly if they are in low income schools. I work in a low income school. The students who I think are absolutely neglected are the high performing students who catch on quickly and want to learn. These are some of the reason why AP classes absolutely helps these low income students:

1. It allows motived students not to be with student who display major behavior issues. Most public schools no longer suspend disruptive students.  Instead they follow restorative justice protocols where often nothing really happens to the students who talk in class on their phones, swear at teachers in class, throw things in class, randomly walk in and out of classes, etc. In the past 20 years the rate of incarceration of juveniles has decreased by around 75%. Many continuation schools have shut down. Where are those really difficult kids? The majority of them are in low income schools sitting in the honors for all classes disrupting classes. My husband teaches middle school at a 100% low income school. When he first started if a kid assaulted a staff member they were arrested and sent to a juvenile camp then to a continuation school. Now- they don't even get suspended.  A student kicked an assistant principal and beat up a crossing guard and still is in my husband's class. 

2. In many low income school there is a constant turn over of new teachers. The AP curriculum allows the teacher to follow a set curriculum without having to spend hours figuring out what to do. There are so many YouTube videos, websites, resources to help the new teacher.

3. If a student doesn't understand a concept, misses class, or needs help reviewing there are so many YouTube videos they can watch exactly on the topics of the lesson since it is a set curriculum. 

4. . Most AP classes REQUIRE access for the student and teacher to a college level textbook in print or online. It is ridiculous that so many classes in public schools do NOT have textbooks at public schools. Teachers use Teacher Pay Teacher sources or random materials instead of a cohesive curriculum. The only math textbooks at my son's school are for the AP math classes. The other math classes use Math Vision Project which is a collection of workbooks with NO textbook showing worked examples. If you miss a day or you don't pay attention there is nowhere readily available to find what you missed. The workbooks do not include what the purpose of the lesson is, how to solve any of the problems, or any examples. You can't attempt to solve the odd problems and look in the back of the textbook to find the answer to see if you are solving the problem correctly. Most teachers just tell students if you miss a class watch a video and provide a link. 

5. The students who want to be challenged are not in class with the academically lowest students because those students aren't placed in AP classes at most low income schools. Often the lowest students academically get all the attention of the teacher. The top students at these low income schools are often not challenged. It has gotten worse as more and more districts implement "honors for all" and mix all the students into one level of classes. So a student reading at a college level, a student reading at a 9th grade level, and a student who reads at an elementary reading level are all in the same English or science, or history class. There is no way the top students are really being challenged. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Nart
So many typos! I was trying to get my younger son to actually read what he is supposed to read for a non-AP 9th grade class. He kept saying (and is probably right ), "I can do it my way [the easy way] and get an A."

[daijobu]

Yeah, I don't get all the  hate for the College Board.  It strikes me as a reflexive anti-test sentiment that's so popular these days.  In the absence of any sort of standards for what it means to study math or history or English or science in high school, the College Board does an exceptional job of filling this vacuum.  

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

Pass rates on these exams haven't budged. This is the reality. These kids didn't learn.

Is this the fault of the College Board?  

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

The logic that therefore the AP courses are creating better education is flawed. The College Board is not improving your kid's education.

The College Board can't do everything, and they certainly can't control what happens in the classrooms, but they do bend over backward to provide supporting materials to teachers.  What they do execeptionally well is set a standard and measure students and teachers and schools against this standard.

If not for the College Board, we would have no idea what was happening to our students.  Don't shoot the messenger.  And don't hate on testing.  

[cintinative]

I'm outside of the public schools but my concern is that the energy and money behind AP is driving schools to do less with the other courses to the disadvantage of the kids who are not ready for "college level," which is what AP is sold as around here.  Honors used to mean honors, not some collective for anyone who could not handle AP.

From reading this thread it is clear there are multiple factors at play including the individual schools and teachers and decisions/policies regarding discipline.  And I agree that College Board is not responsible for those.  But I do think that when we consider the data such as that shared in this article, I don't think we can say with a straight face that those kids were served well by AP.  We might just leave it as: they were not served well period.  It gets really complicated because some of those students may suffer with a poor educational foundation-- those poor reading and math skills that were never fully cultivated in elementary but the students were pushed along anyway.  Or again, they may receive poor instruction in the AP class itself. My nephew certainly had some poor teachers. 

Most of these kids have been tested ad nauseum throughout their K-12 experience and yet they get to AP courses and score a 1 or a 2. Something is amiss here.  

I am confused about the lack of standards for history and math mentioned upthread, for example. I understand that the teachers have some latitude on what they choose to use for resources, but on what basis are the state tests done if there are no standards? 

There are a fair amount of people on these boards with really exceptional children. Certainly they have exceptional parents who are passionate for their children to have a good education.  So sometimes I think there is a tendency to throw a lot of support behind AP because it works for our children and does benefit them. But there are others whose children are simply not ready for college courses in high school, and I think that the article rightly points out that those children should not be overlooked while we pour money into a program for the academically gifted or talented. 

My brother describes a dynamic in their school where the gifted/talented kids go to one set of courses in one wing and everyone else is "general population" and consigned to poor courses, many discipline issues, and little to no exhortation to improve oneself. This should not be.  It was not that way when I was in high school.  We had AP (not many), honors, college prep and remedial courses.   Now, apparently, the lower three are often consolidated.  The question is-how did we get here? 

Edited November 26, 2023 by cintinative

[MagistraKennedy]

16 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Now the new trick is DE, because schools figured out there is no accountability for those. They are taught on school campus here and are just as easy as any non AP high school course and every kid gets an A! So now the school can claim that its disadvantaged population is succeeding in DE because there is no standardized test at the end of the year to actually show them what kids learned. And public universities here are forced to accept credit. So win win for everything and everybody. Who cares about learning. Unlike AP test that makes you face the reality of your knowledge, nobody can question what was learned in DE. 

Are you saying that in your area, DE is a joke? Isn't the syllabus approved by the sponsoring college? Shouldn't a student have to pass the class to earn high school and potentially college credit? 

[MagistraKennedy]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

  It was not that way when I was in high school.  We had AP (not many), honors, college prep and remedial courses.   Now, apparently, the lower three are often consolidated.  The question is-how did we get here? 

This is similar to our set up --- we had standard classes, college prep, a handful of AP, remedial classes, and a huge vo-tech program. In retrospect, it worked well. 

[EKS]

17 hours ago, Farrar said:

It's sad to me that people can see these stats about how AP coursework did not improve the actual lives of these lower socioeconomic status kids and how it siphoned off money from schools (many low income kids have their exams paid for by their districts). Pass rates on these exams haven't budged. This is the reality. These kids didn't learn.

Do low SAT scores in lower SES students (or any other group) indicate that they didn't learn the material?  If so, then it should also be true that low AP scores would mean the same thing. 

But the argument for going test optional/test blind is that low SAT scores aren't indicative of how much students have learned.  If one accepts this as true, then it is inconsistent to assume that students who don't pass AP exams haven't learned the material.  

My belief is that both the SAT and AP tests indicate how much students have learned, assuming that the students are doing their best the tests.  This is frequently not the case for AP tests.  I'm not sure how often this is the case for the SAT.

 

14 hours ago, daijobu said:

I don't get all the  hate for the College Board.

I don't either.  Frankly, they're just the messenger.  And they've bent over backwards to mitigate (hide) score gaps--to the point of making the PSAT/SAT unable to distinguish anything important about top students.

[Roadrunner]

58 minutes ago, MagistraKennedy said:

Are you saying that in your area, DE is a joke? Isn't the syllabus approved by the sponsoring college? Shouldn't a student have to pass the class to earn high school and potentially college credit? 

Yes. DE on school campus is equivalent to a regular or honors history, significantly below the rigor of AP. In fact it’s such a success (students and parents love it because it’s easy to get an A and universities accept credit) that APs are being gradually replaced with DE. Since GPA is all it matters, grade inflation at our school is out of control. And if you don’t do well in class, you can see a play, or tell a teacher you read an extra book, and you get enough extra credits to pull it to an A. Tests are so easy, it takes a special efforts to score below a B, and B’s can always be turned into A’s. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, MagistraKennedy said:

Are you saying that in your area, DE is a joke? Isn't the syllabus approved by the sponsoring college? Shouldn't a student have to pass the class to earn high school and potentially college credit? 

We’ll certainly many of the CC classes here are a joke, so it’s not hard for me to imagine that a CC class taught at a high school would be less than rigorous and not really college level. It’s also not hard to imagine that the same syllabus could be taught in a way from very low to very high level. Just because two classes use the same books and assignments doesn’t really tell you anything about the level of rigor. I honestly can’t believe what some students are receiving college credit for.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, MagistraKennedy said:

This is similar to our set up --- we had standard classes, college prep, a handful of AP, remedial classes, and a huge vo-tech program. In retrospect, it worked well. 

And I went to such a small, rural high school that we only had regular and votech classes. But over half of my class went to college and everyone that went graduated. I had never even heard of AP or IB until I got to college.

[Frances]

3 hours ago, cintinative said:

Most of these kids have been tested ad nauseum throughout their K-12 experience and yet they get to AP courses and score a 1 or a 2. Something is amiss here.  

I am confused about the lack of standards for history and math mentioned upthread, for example. I understand that the teachers have some latitude on what they choose to use for resources, but on what basis are the state tests done if there are no standards.

Well the majority of kids in my large district do not score as proficient or on grade level on the numerous state tests they take, so if the majority are scoring low on other tests, that would not at all be surprising. Look at the high percentage of kids who enter college and don’t test as ready for college level material. Our education system is what is amiss.

And grade inflation is so rampant at most high schools due to pressure from parents and students that I think we absolutely need things like AP tests to see what students have really learned. Not that they are perfect measures by any stretch, but based on what I hear from friends, grades are almost meaningless at the local high schools because you can generally get an A by showing up and just doing the work. It really doesn’t matter how you do on tests or quizzes because there is always tons of extra credit and most of the grade is based on just completing regular work. So really what they are grading is being organized and on top of assignments, not knowledge or learning.

If parents can’t see a math textbook, but instead their child just gets a seemingly random assortment of worksheets and web links, I think no matter what the reality, it’s not going to seem to them that a comprehensive, cohesive curriculum is being followed. What is the deal with the lack of textbooks, especially for math?

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Frances

[EKS]

4 minutes ago, Frances said:

Just because two classes use the same books and assignments doesn’t really tell you anything about the level of rigor.

This is absolutely the case.  I've seen it firsthand in my math program (see sig).

Some hidden ways that math classes are dumbed down:

• You can list a textbook on the syllabus that never gets used and is not followed at all
• You can give lectures that contain exactly the same problems as the homework but with different numbers
• You can give an inordinate number of extra credit opportunities that require no thinking of the student (merely showing up at Zoom office hours, for example)
• You can make tests open book open note open everything with no time limit (or a very generous time limit)
• You can drop low scores
• You can allow retakes
• You can grade on completion rather than content
• You can simply not follow the published syllabus (do fewer chapters, for example)

Every one of my classes has had some combination of these issues.

It is even worse in the social sciences and the humanities.  I have two master's degrees, one in each field.  Readings are dumbed down and if you turn your papers in on time, you will get an A.

My experience above has been with second string state schools--ASU and CSUN are examples.

[Roadrunner]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

Well the majority of kids in my large district do not score as proficient or on grade level on the numerous state tests they take, so if the majority are scoring low on other tests, that would not at all be surprising. Look at the high percentage of kids who enter college and don’t test as ready for college level material. Our education system is what is amiss.

If parents can’t see a math textbook, but instead their child just gets a seemingly random assortment of worksheets and web links, I think no matter what the reality, it’s not going to seem to them that a comprehensive, cohesive curriculum is being followed. What is the deal with the lack of textbooks, especially for math?

 

You should see CA’s fix for math. 🤦‍♀️ 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/california-math-framework-algebra/675509/

[EKS]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

What is the deal with the lack of textbooks, especially for math?

This is a problem at the college level as well.  Publishers and universities seem to be moving toward an online only "textbook" model.  What this means is that you are charged for an e-textbook that only works for the term of enrollment.  You cannot opt out.  In many cases, physical textbooks are no longer even being produced.  

This infuriates me.  I prefer a physical textbook.  And I am not alone in this.  It lives on my desk. I can flip back and forth between sections or chapters.  I can browse easily.  After the class is over, I can keep it on my shelf and actually refer to it as needed for subsequent classes.  An e-book is not equivalent AT ALL.

Publishers like this system because they get paid by the student no matter what.  I suspect that the people making the decision to go the e-book route have never actually properly used a textbook themselves.  

I used to be on the board of a small private high school.  You would not believe how much I had to fight to get them to have textbooks for math and science.  Among other things, a textbook can be a safety net for poor teaching.  Unfortunately, they didn't want to hear that they needed that sort of safety net, but eventually they came around.

[Paige]

21 minutes ago, Frances said:

We’ll certainly many of the CC classes here are a joke, so it’s not hard for me to imagine that a CC class taught at a high school would be less than rigorous and not really college level. It’s also not hard to imagine that the same syllabus could be taught in a way from very low to very high level. Just because two classes use the same books and assignments doesn’t really tell you anything about the level of rigor. I honestly can’t believe what some students are receiving college credit for.

The thing is, that's what college level intro classes often are these days. Especially at CC! It's sad. I was a TA for non entry level subject matter courses many, many, many years ago and the number of papers I read from students who literally had no paragraph breaks that far into college (3/4th year undergrads) would make me want to cry. And my prof wouldn't let me give failing grades or incompletes. I doubt things have gotten better. The prof really wanted a high pass rate, high teacher reviews, and few complaints to the dean. She was actually a fabulous teacher and cared about her students, but she also cared about her job. 

I don't know what has happened to education but the AP classes my students have taken with both public and homeschool instructors are not impressive. I'm done with them. But the honors classes at our highly rated public schools were worse. 

I feel I had fantastic AP courses and honors courses in public schools. Something has changed and I think it may be because funding is tied to grades and performance measures that can be manipulated. 

[EKS]

16 minutes ago, Paige said:

I feel I had fantastic AP courses and honors courses in public schools. Something has changed and I think it may be because funding is tied to grades and performance measures that can be manipulated. 

What has changed is the idea that equal outcomes are all important without any thought given to what that would take in terms of instruction and practice. 

Again using math as an example... As those of us who have actually taught math from kindergarten through calculus know, unless the kid is some sort of math genius, it is not trivial to ensure an unbroken chain of instruction and practice for 13 years.  Most kids aren't thrilled about doing things that are hard.  It takes an enormous amount of work on everyone's part.  The reason--or a reason--that kids from lower SES families might have trouble with math is that instruction is frequently discovery based (and, thus, extremely inefficient) and, especially, that practice is offloaded as homework.  If you don't have someone at home who is willing to make the kid do the homework to the best of their ability and able to answer questions and ensure that it is done correctly, at some point the kid is likely to get left behind.  If the adults in the home are working, are taking care of other children (and elders), or are just plain exhausted, supervising homework time in the way that it needs to be supervised for kids to eventually be ready to take on high school/college math is a big ask.

Schools need to realize that they don't have time for inefficient modes of instruction.  They need to ensure that students get sufficient practice at school and that kids don't move on before they are solid on what came before.  It isn't rocket science, but neither is it warm and fuzzy and fun.

Of course the other option is to simply meet the students where they are once they get to high school.  Call it honors or AP or whatever and do something else.  Give everyone an A.  Pass the issue of academic skills and knowledge gaps on to colleges and, ultimately, society.  All in the name of "equity," but it's an equity that ultimately hurts those it's trying to help.

[Frances]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:40 AM, SKL said:

I too have observed that the AP teachers here are tough graders.  The kids do get a "bump" in the adjusted GPA, so if they get a C in AP biotech it gets 3 points in the adjusted weighted GPA.  But 3 points will still cause them to lose the scholarship they got for having 3.5+ GPA going into 12th.

So, if you're my kid - bright with lots of interests - your choices are (a) be bored senseless in high school or (b) be punished for not having a hyper-focus on school / grades.  I guess we've chosen the latter.

But one B (3.0) alone doesn’t cause one to go below a 3.5. Someone could get half As and half Bs (or half Bs and half CS in AP classes) and still have a 3.5. Unless one is at a very competitive, rigorous high school, I don’t think getting a 3.5 takes a hyper-focus on school and grades for a bright, college bound student.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Frances

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, Paige said:

And my prof wouldn't let me give failing grades or incompletes. I doubt things have gotten better. The prof really wanted a high pass rate, high teacher reviews, and few complaints to the dean. She was actually a fabulous teacher and cared about her students, but she also cared about her job.

Your professor was smart.  Better to wait until you have tenure before you rock the boat.  Here's a professor who wasn't so smart and indeed did lose her job over grading standards.  

"When I accepted a tenure-track position in the economics department of Spelman College in the spring of 2021, handing out bogus grades was the last thing on my mind."

"But what I found at Spelman was even more troubling: even after receiving the “normal” grade inflation, students demanded yet higher grades—and revolted when I wouldn’t go along. "

"Their basic argument was that since virtually the entire class had performed poorly on the midterm, it had to be my fault, and therefore, I needed to make changes that aligned with their wishes and input. Boiled down, they had two demands: make the class easier, and promise that they would all get passing grades. "

[Frances]

21 hours ago, Farrar said:

It's sad to me that people can see these stats about how AP coursework did not improve the actual lives of these lower socioeconomic status kids and how it siphoned off money from schools (many low income kids have their exams paid for by their districts). Pass rates on these exams haven't budged. This is the reality. These kids didn't learn. More middle class schools often have better AP programs, yes. But these kids aren't passing because they learned more. They're passing because they had better preparation on so many levels, some of which comes from a stronger overall school system. They'd learn more in any good class. And if they don't have other good classes, that's because the school is stacking it such that those are primarily the AP courses. The logic that therefore the AP courses are creating better education is flawed. The College Board is not improving your kid's education.

Do you honestly think the small amount of $ any one school is spending on AP testing would actually be put to a better use that would actually result in more learning? It’s a trivial amount of money really. It just sounds like a lot when aggregated together for the whole country. About the only possible way I could see the money being better used for lower socioeconomic kids is if it were used for targeted, high quality tutoring or summer programs to remediate deficiencies. But look what lots of kids got when the federal government threw money at schools during the pandemic - more online learning. Personally, I have zero faith that schools would develop rigorous alternative courses with high standards if they didn’t have AP. More likely they would just add more mediocre CC classes and hand out lots of As. And continue to produce lots of  students who aren’t actually college ready (and want to go to college, I’m not talking about those pursuing votech or other paths) despite a high gpa and college credits.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Frances

[Kassia]

39 minutes ago, Frances said:

But one B (3.0) alone doesn’t cause one to go below a 3.5. Someone could get half As and half Bs (or half Bs and half CS in AP classes) and still have a 3.5. Unless one is at a very competitive, rigorous high school, I don’t think getting a 3.5 takes a hyper-focus on school and grades for a bright, college bound student.

At our public high school, grades are unweighted and there is tremendous pressure for bright students to maintain a 4.0 gpa.  If you don't, your class rank drops dramatically and there's a good chance you won't be in that desirable top 10% for college admissions.  So taking an AP class with a teacher who is a tough grader is very risky for both GPA and class rank.

[Frances]

4 minutes ago, Kassia said:

At our public high school, grades are unweighted and there is tremendous pressure for bright students to maintain a 4.0 gpa.  If you don't, your class rank drops dramatically and there's a good chance you won't be in that desirable top 10% for college admissions.  So taking an AP class with a teacher who is a tough grader is very risky for both GPA and class rank.

Is this Texas? The poster was not in Texas and was talking about maintaining a 3.5+ GPA, not a top 10% ranking, so my post was in response to that situation.

And as an aside, it seems like a dumb policy to not weight grades, especially if one is in a state where public  college admissions is highly based on class rank. These are exactly the type of decisions that end up making school all about grades rather than about learning.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Frances