Marriage counselors question

[Scarlett]

I am hearing this second hand but I am wondering how others view this.

The scenario is a husband who is an alcoholic. He was a year sober when they got married.  5 years in to the marriage he starts drinking again. Nothing horrible at first but as is typical 5 more years in he is drinking a lot.  Wife quizzes him, asks him to not drink so much etc. He begins to lie to her about his drinking which I hear is also typical.  She caught him lying and she is very upset.

Ok, so MC tells wife, ‘he is lying to you because you are nagging him. Stop nagging him about it and he will stop lying to you.’  She also gave the wife a co dependent book to read. 
 

Is this a method of getting him to take responsibility for his drinking?  Is it likely he will actually stop lying about how much he is drinking if she stops managing him?

 

[sweet2ndchance]

Well, I agree that if she stops nagging he'll stop lying. But that doesn't address the under lying problem which is the drinking. I don't think nagging is going to help with this problem (or any problem really). Without knowing more about the relationship, I can't speak to the reason why she gave her the co-dependency book.

Bottom line, she knew his past and the possibilities that came with it. She can't change him. If she is unable to live with this (and I would completely understand if she couldn't) then it's a lawyer she needs to be talking to not a marriage counselor.

Just my 2 cents.

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, sweet2ndchance said:

Well, I agree that if she stops nagging he'll stop lying. But that doesn't address the under lying problem which is the drinking. I don't think nagging is going to help with this problem (or any problem really). Without knowing more about the relationship, I can't speak to the reason why she gave her the co-dependency book.

Bottom line, she knew his past and the possibilities that came with it. She can't change him. If she is unable to live with this (and I would completely understand if she couldn't) then it's a lawyer she needs to be talking to not a marriage counselor.

Just my 2 cents.

That is exactly what I told her! That it seemed like there was a lot of discussion of wife nagging and a lot of ignoring the elephant in the room which is his drinking.  
 

This counselor also thinks an alcoholic doesn’t necessarily have to give up drinking completely. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Scarlett

[marbel]

Is the husband attending this counseling or just the wife?  Sorry but it's not clear to me. If the husband isn't there, the counselor can't really address his drinking, just the wife's reaction to it. 

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, marbel said:

Is the husband attending this counseling or just the wife?  Sorry but it's not clear to me. If the husband isn't there, the counselor can't really address his drinking, just the wife's reaction to it. 

Oh, sorry, yes they are there together. 

[sweet2ndchance]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

That is exactly what I told her! That it seemed like there was a lot of discussion of wife nagging and a lot of ignoring the elephant in the room which is his drinking.  
 

This counselor also thinks an alcoholic doesn’t necessarily have to give up drinking completely. 

Well, she's a marriage counselor, not an addiction counselor. She's helping them solve the problems in the marriage. The drinking problem is entirely something else that probably needs to be seen by a different counselor if he is willing.

[Carrie12345]

Marriage counseling isn’t for treating or solving alcoholism.

The wife knows he has a substance issue. Nagging will not fix a substance issue or the marriage.

My guess (which could be wrong) is that the counselor is saying more that the couple isn’t taking to.

[Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Marriage counseling isn’t for treating or solving alcoholism.

The wife knows he has a substance issue. Nagging will not fix a substance issue or the marriage.

My guess (which could be wrong) is that the counselor is saying more that the couple isn’t taking to.

Yes, this. It sounds to me like part of the story is missing. Perhaps the wife complained about the lying. How many times have people here advised others not to put kids in a position to lie? If you know something is happening, you don’t need to ask if it’s happening. This sounds like the same sort of situation. She knows her husband is drinking. She knows he’s an alcoholic. Asking questions (giving an opportunity for him to lie) and nagging won’t change that reality. Obviously he shouldn’t lie, but reality is that he will drink and he will lie about drinking.

[Katy]

Addicts will always lie about their addiction. They will lie less if nagged less, but they won’t stop lying. All addicts lie. Always. For the same reasons they’re addicts- they would rather avoid their problems than deal with them head-on. 

Abuse and addiction are two reasons someone should leave a marriage. Especially if there are children involved. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, sweet2ndchance said:

Well, she's a marriage counselor, not an addiction counselor. She's helping them solve the problems in the marriage. The drinking problem is entirely something else that probably needs to be seen by a different counselor if he is willing.

Oh! Yes, she said she wants him to see an individual man therapist/psychologist. He has agreed. 
 

I figured there was a method to what she was doing.   Wife says she is very blunt but they both like her.  

[Scarlett]

43 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

Yes, this. It sounds to me like part of the story is missing. Perhaps the wife complained about the lying. How many times have people here advised others not to put kids in a position to lie? If you know something is happening, you don’t need to ask if it’s happening. This sounds like the same sort of situation. She knows her husband is drinking. She knows he’s an alcoholic. Asking questions (giving an opportunity for him to lie) and nagging won’t change that reality. Obviously he shouldn’t lie, but reality is that he will drink and he will lie about drinking.

Well sure there is definitely more to their story than I can put in one post.  

[Innisfree]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Well sure there is definitely more to their story than I can put in one post.  

Sure, but what I meant is that there may be more to the story than the wife told you. She may be hung up on the lying, to the extent that she’s not hearing everything the therapist is saying. The therapist may never have intended her to think that if she stops nagging, the drinking will diminish. All that stopping nagging can accomplish is to stop putting him in situations where he will lie.

[livetoread]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

his counselor also thinks an alcoholic doesn’t necessarily have to give up drinking completely. 

This is true. Some people can, some can't. Addiction understanding has changed from the 12 Step/AA model being the only tool in the toolbox. There are options, and some people respond well to controlled drinking, even as alcoholics (as the term is currently understood).

[gardenmom5]

Sure he's lying because she's talking to him about it. 

What does the MC think is going to happen by not addressing it?  Does th MC think it's fine and dandy for an alcoholic to be increasing his alcohol intake?

What does the MC think the wife is supposed to do to protect her interests from an addict?

If the MC thinks he'll drink less if wife says nothing sounds very naive.  At best.

I think there are support groups for spousesof alcoholics. She'd probably get better support and ideas there.

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, Innisfree said:

Sure, but what I meant is that there may be more to the story than the wife told you. She may be hung up on the lying, to the extent that she’s not hearing everything the therapist is saying. The therapist may never have intended her to think that if she stops nagging, the drinking will diminish. All that stopping nagging can accomplish is to stop putting him in situations where he will lie.

Oh no, I don’t think the MC ever led the wife to believe less nagging will equal less drinking.  She said less nagging will equal less lying.  I was just surprised that was her solution to the LYING.  But I think thought process is the drinking has to be the husband’s issue to own.  

Edited September 15, 2023 by Scarlett
Solution to lying not nagging.

[Scarlett]

36 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Sure he's lying because she's talking to him about it. 

What does the MC think is going to happen by not addressing it?  Does th MC think it's fine and dandy for an alcoholic to be increasing his alcohol intake?

What does the MC think the wife is supposed to do to protect her interests from an addict?

If the MC thinks he'll drink less if wife says nothing sounds very naive.  At best.

I think there are support groups for spousesof alcoholics. She'd probably get better support and ideas there.

I am not sure what the MC is thinking but after reading a few posts it seems like me is trying to direct the wife to worry about her own side of the street.  
 

Both of them are happy with this therapist.  

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, livetoread said:

This is true. Some people can, some can't. Addiction understanding has changed from the 12 Step/AA model being the only tool in the toolbox. There are options, and some people respond well to controlled drinking, even as alcoholics (as the term is currently understood).

There does seem to be a pattern of his drinking spiraling out of control when things go wrong…..like a death of a parent or conflict with adult kids or ex wives. The MC wants him to work on being able to emotional handle those times instead of shutting down and drinking too much.  

[Melissa Louise]

Wife is on a hiding to nothing going to counselling with an alcoholic. 

First, the alcoholic needs to get sober. 

Then, they can work on the marriage. 

The counsellor is giving Al-Anon style advice. It's not so much that the nagging will solve the lying. It's more that the nagging will not solve the alcoholism, and lying is a feature of the alcoholism. 

Wife should assume the husband is drinking (and lying) and pour all her energy into her own life and life prospects.

You can't save an alcoholic.

Only they can do that for themselves - sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. 

[Lecka]

I think it’s a way to shift from focusing on lying, to focusing on the drinking itself.  
 

I wouldn’t be okay with it as an end point, but I’m okay with it as a beginning point.  

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I am not sure what the MC is thinking but after reading a few posts it seems like me is trying to direct the wife to worry about her own side of the street.  
 

Both of them are happy with this therapist.  

His alcoholism affects her in significant ways.

I understand she's not an addiction counselor,  but that's what they both need at this point. 

[kathyl]

7 hours ago, Katy said:

Addicts will always lie about their addiction. They will lie less if nagged less, but they won’t stop lying. All addicts lie. Always. For the same reasons they’re addicts- they would rather avoid their problems than deal with them head-on. 

Abuse and addiction are two reasons someone should leave a marriage. Especially if there are children involved. 

This.

And I would go even further and say that if he's lying about the addiction, he's probably lying about other things, too.  Just based on the addicts I've known, the lying seems to become their modus operandi out of habit or something.  At some point it seems to become easier for them to lie than to tell the truth.  And that might continue even if he stays clean.  It really depends on the person, I suppose.  

Edited September 14, 2023 by kathyl

[TechWife]

7 hours ago, livetoread said:

This is true. Some people can, some can't. Addiction understanding has changed from the 12 Step/AA model being the only tool in the toolbox. There are options, and some people respond well to controlled drinking, even as alcoholics (as the term is currently understood).

Yes, this. AA, which champions abstinence, actually has a pretty low long-term success rate as far as people abstaining from alcohol use. It’s good for other reasons, like accountability and encouragement. 

Also - alcoholism is now “alcohol use disorder” to reflect the changing approach. 

[Not_a_Number]

I think the advice that I can do nothing except be quiet and focus on myself would be frustrating for me.

Nagging is obviously not helpful. But when a situation isn’t livable, people try to control the people who are making it unlivable, and nagging is one way it comes out.

The solution to that is to not throw out the baby with the bath water: she needs her life to feel livable even though you can’t MAKE someone change. And then the question is what she can actually control… what parts of their life that are affected by her husband’s drinking are actually things she can’t deal with.

In my opinion, you can only deal with the nagging once you’ve made the environment different.

[Scarlett]

35 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think the advice that I can do nothing except be quiet and focus on myself would be frustrating for me.

Nagging is obviously not helpful. But when a situation isn’t livable, people try to control the people who are making it unlivable, and nagging is one way it comes out.

The solution to that is to not throw out the baby with the bath water: she needs her life to feel livable even though you can’t MAKE someone change. And then the question is what she can actually control… what parts of their life that are affected by her husband’s drinking are actually things she can’t deal with.

In my opinion, you can only deal with the nagging once you’ve made the environment different.

Agree.  I am not clear how much it affects her life.  She gives mixed messages on that. 

[Rosie_0801]

Perhaps what they really need is financial counselling, to agree on a system that will limit the damage such an addiction could do.

[Katy]

8 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Perhaps what they really need is financial counselling, to agree on a system that will limit the damage such an addiction could do.

This might be the first time I’ve ever really disagreed with Rosie. His agreement to any system at all will be worthless because addicts constantly lie. He’ll say and do anything to avoid confrontation and do whatever he wants to later anyway. 

Ultimately she’ll lose respect for him and divorce him. You can’t be in a healthy marriage with someone who lies and evades the truth in a consistent and pathological manner. He’ll tell her whatever he thinks she wants to hear then do whatever he wants to do. You cannot trust an addict. Ever. 

[Rosie_0801]

22 minutes ago, Katy said:

This might be the first time I’ve ever really disagreed with Rosie. His agreement to any system at all will be worthless because addicts constantly lie. He’ll say and do anything to avoid confrontation and do whatever he wants to later anyway. 

Certainly the system would have to be one she could act on immediately and where his further agreement would no longer be required. Not having access to the mortgage money, for instance, certainly no access to money she's earned independently. I don't know if or how this could be arranged.

I am aware that liars lie. I also know that most people require ways to justify themselves as decent humans, so he might have a line somewhere that she could capitalise on before the line moves further away.

I'd rather spend effort protecting my rent money than listen to someone give parenting advice like "don't ask questions when you know you won't like the response." No wonder he likes this therapist.

Anyway, I'm only hypothesising. If I knew how to cure problems like this, I'd be selling it.

[Scarlett]

Thankfully she makes a lot more money than him.  I do think there is a possibility she will leave him.  
 

A lot of alcoholics are quite functional and he is of that sort.  He works hard at his job keeps their place looking amazing etc.  my concern is she keeps moving her line in the sand.  5 years ago there was a horrific incident and she told him she could not stay married to him if he drinks.  Now she is driving herself crazy about how much he drinks and catching him in lies.  
 

I am hopeful the new male psychologist will be helpful to him. He is a good man and he loves her.  So maybe like this MC said, he ‘will figure it out before it is too late’. 

[bolt.]

I agree that the therapist's comment is a bit odd, and quite off-putting. But, on the other hand, you are describing someone who seems to be in denial of what is really happening with his alcoholism and is coping with that by fixating on whether or not he lies. I can see someone trying to get her to see that it doesn't matter very much how much he lies, it matters how long she is willing to share her life with an alcoholic of any severity/functionality.

She doesn't need to drive herself crazy. She needs some combination of acceptance, boundaries, and rejection that creates a fixed point and a stable life that she can live without absorbing and amplifying the impact of alcoholism (from impacting the alcoholic himself to impacting her own wellbeing).

Maybe 'stop asking crazy-making questions' could be part of that strategy. But if that's the only part of the strategy that the counselor is communicating well enough for her to absorb it or remember it (and if she is remembering it as 'don't nag' advice, instead of 'release yourself from needing to know' advice)... that's not very successful counselling.

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, bolt. said:

I agree that the therapist's comment is a bit odd, and quite off-putting. But, on the other hand, you are describing someone who seems to be in denial of what is really happening with his alcoholism and is coping with that by fixating on whether or not he lies. I can see someone trying to get her to see that it doesn't matter very much how much he lies, it matters how long she is willing to share her life with an alcoholic of any severity/functionality.

She doesn't need to drive herself crazy. She needs some combination of acceptance, boundaries, and rejection that creates a fixed point and a stable life that she can live without absorbing and amplifying the impact of alcoholism (from impacting the alcoholic himself to impacting her own wellbeing).

Maybe 'stop asking crazy-making questions' could be part of that strategy. But if that's the only part of the strategy that the counselor is communicating well enough for her to absorb it or remember it (and if she is remembering it as 'don't nag' advice, instead of 'release yourself from needing to know' advice)... that's not very successful counselling.

I definitely think the wife is getting more of a message than ‘stop nagging’.  She seems to be having some light bulb moments that she can’t control him. 

[kathyl]

Scarlett, how old is this couple?

[Scarlett]

40 minutes ago, kathyl said:

Scarlett, how old is this couple?

Mid 50s.