Article in NYT re: Americans losing faith in value of college degree

[kbutton]

I should put in a plug for the career tech centers in Ohio…more states should do this.

1 hour ago, smfmommy said:

Interesting graphic that shows students have shifted towards more "practical" degrees.  It will be interesting to see if this impacts society in 10 years or if we really didn't need as many English Lit majors as we have had.

Original article is HERE

 

In addition to blue collar trades, our career tech high schools prep students for entry level careers in these industries. They get kids internships that lead to jobs in these fields, and many of these jobs will pay for additional credentials or degrees.

In Ohio, you can take career tech classes and be college prep. You can take tech prep classes and dual enroll. You can homeschool and do tech prep.

Some of these programs are so popular that there are waiting lists. 

We need more of that, not less.

[SHP]

Disclaimer: Many of the large residential companies are not union. Many of the smaller companies that do residential are not union. Non Union workers do not make anywhere near the amount as their union counterparts.

With that said, it is very hard to find accurate information for non union jobs since every employer pays differently and don't have to make that information available to the public. Union contracts are public, at least in my state. I can go down to any Union hall and ask for copies of any contract and know exactly how much each is getting paid, I cannot do the same for every employer. The best I can do is look at the companies job postings. 

With that said, I found this Union payscale for electricians. They list different cities, the hourly pay and the total package pay, the cost of living etc. I will use it for this example. Since I have no clue where BlsdMama lives, or if the company they used is union or not so I used the extremes on the union scale. If the company was not union I would work on the assumption that the hourly pay falls between half and 3/4 of the union pay. 

The highest I saw was in San Jose, CA at $137.72/hour for the total package. At $312/hour with $174.28/hour to go towards the overhead. The lowest was in Eastern Shore, MD at $28.80/hour total package with $283.20/hour to go towards overhead.

 

[Penelope]

On 9/8/2023 at 1:44 AM, Shoeless said:

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Penelope

[SKL]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

"I mean, I know I had affordable college with state tuition I could pay for myself by just working summers, and could buy a house in my late 20s as a young working adult, but why should my kids be able to do that? Those entitled whipper snappers!!!"

SKL....to gently pick on you a bit....Assuming you graduated at 22 with a BA, got a masters by 24 (grad degree one) and went to law school (grad degree 2), you graduated at 27....and bought a house the next year.

I graduated college at 21 and did a dual JD/MBA which I finished at 25, and had been working professionally much more than full-time for 2.5 years before I bought 1/3 of a house.

Note the 1/3 part.  I bought it jointly with two other well-educated adults who were in their 30s at the time (their first house also).

[SHP]

14 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I should put in a plug for the career tech centers in Ohio…more states should do this.

In addition to blue collar trades, our career tech high schools prep students for entry level careers in these industries. They get kids internships that lead to jobs in these fields, and many of these jobs will pay for additional credentials or degrees.

In Ohio, you can take career tech classes and be college prep. You can take tech prep classes and dual enroll. You can homeschool and do tech prep.

Some of these programs are so popular that there are waiting lists. 

We need more of that, not less.

That rocks! My states tech programs have sucked for decades. Ok, not all of them, but many offered career tracks into lower paying jobs or you had to get a degree to go with it. My husband attended and the certificate is useless. I attended and there were no jobs available, the best I could get was seasonal. I sent an adultling to community college to get a degree in what used to be a program through the technical school. 🙃 Employers what that degree now.

[SKL]

I wonder what percent of students really value that "whole college experience" thing.  I don't know, it isn't something anyone in my family ever did - we lived with our parents and commuted, or studied part-time while working full-time.  The first time I went to a college sports event was when my kid's gymnastics team performed in a halftime show.  😛

I'm currently hoping my kids attend the nearby state university that they can commute to from home.  It bugs me when other adults try to get one of them interested in applying for a so-called "good" school.  Even if they got a full ride (which they won't), spending 4 years in that bullshit environment would be a waste of time at best IMO.  I could see it if they had super high aptitude in a super highly paid field and couldn't get a comparable education elsewhere.  But that is a rare situation.

[regentrude]

52 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

That is certainly true in some fields, but I am not sure that it applies in all fields. 

But, it points out why having a university provide salary data for degrees can be highly misleading.  A college degree, even within a field, is not a standardzied investment.  The choices that one makes of how to use that degree have a large impact on the return on the investment.  Even if you had good data on the average salary of grads from a particular degree program at a particular school, you would be picking up the impact of individual choices as well as the "value of the degree".  

It is certainly true in for the STEM disciplines where academia salaries lag far behind those in industry. This is also the reason for the pay inequalities between professors of equal rank in different departments, with engineering faculty earning far higher salaries than anybody else - because they could make the biggest money if they chose a job in industry. Humanities faculty at same rank make significantly less, because there are fewer high paying jobs colleges have to compete with.

And yes, completely agree, the individual choices all play a role. But the average salaries are still a good starting point because they show the earning possibilities with the degree. (Sure, a degree with low average salaries may still have a few jobs where one can out-earn the average by a large margin, and conversely, one can find low-paying jobs even with highly marketable degrees.)

[Heartstrings]

45 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

The federal portion of the government expenditures for the US is only about 24%, so the 33% in the US is including state and local govenrments in addition to the federal government.  

Darn, I thought I was on to something. 

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’ll never poop in practical professions because they ARE important. But existence is more than practical (or dare I say impractical, lol) and we risk erasing the thinking that built this world we have.

Communicating ideas, understanding past events, serving communities, and seeking truths and resolutions are only a few examples of societal needs.

 I’m annoyed that I have to take some of the gen eds on my degree list, but I have to admit that my professors in my stupid classes have shed genuine light on my relatively smart brain. Could they have without English and anthro/soc degrees? Doubtfull.

How are THEY affording it? Beats me.

Do you see where public administration falls on that list? Talk about job security. Business acumen does not translate to effective public admin (see Louis DeJoy or Betsy DeVos). Personally, I think the De- is for D-list skills. Meanwhile, our federal, state and local workforce is eroding in terms of institutional memory and skill set. And folks wonder why it doesn’t work. Some folks are committed to it NOT working. We give licenses and keys to drive the govvie to anyone with a big mouth and bigger bank account, none of whom can actually drive.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Sneezyone

[regentrude]

45 minutes ago, SKL said:

I wonder what percent of students really value that "whole college experience" thing.  I don't know, it isn't something anyone in my family ever did - we lived with our parents and commuted, or studied part-time while working full-time. 

My school is in a rural area. Very few students live locally or in reasonable commuting distance. Students value when their dorms are pleasant; when the dining hall food is decent and (dare we hope?) even healthy; when they have on-campus gym facilities to incorporate exercise into their full days; when the library has study spaces and long opening hours. They value tutoring centers and  computer labs and reliable WiFi. They value a student health center that is accessible and can meet their basic medical needs, and a counseling center they can turn to in case of a crisis.

The students also value the opportunities to participate in extracurriculars: athletics or music ensembles as a counter-balance to their class work and beneficial for physical and mental health; degree-related activities like Mars rover, solar car, majors honor society for resume building and professional skills.

THAT is what "college experience" means for them.

My experience is that commuter students are at a significant disadvantage because their long commutes waste valuable time, and because they are less likely to be on campus for help sessions and tutoring after class. It is harder for them to build community, join study groups, participate in research activities and degree-adjacent extracurriculars. They can still get their degree, but all those additional opportunities are NOT just unnecessary frills - they directly contribute to the professional development and mental/physical well-being. 

With a large portion of students suffering from mental health problems, anything that encourages physical and mental health is a good thing and directly related to their success as students. Almost every student who stops attending classes and eventually drops out has an underlying mental health issue. If we can create community on campus and offer resources for wellness that gets this person to overcome their problems and succeed in finishing their degree, it is well worth it.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by regentrude

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Gifted link for those who want to read the article

Thank you! I see a little bit of a shift in the R/D dynamic for who is and is not going to college here. People less likely to aspire to college are more likely to be R, but the overall population still highly values college. And people here tend to be keep up with the Joneses types. There are also LOTS of colleges in this state and many flexible options, including CCs that are very well ranked. Those choosing other paths often have a connection; for instance, a local realtor’s kid went into electrical stuff. She know how hard it is to get an electrician to come out to fix something so that you can sell your house, so if he chooses to use this training, he might be working for every realtor in the county. 

39 minutes ago, SHP said:

That rocks! My states tech programs have sucked for decades. Ok, not all of them, but many offered career tracks into lower paying jobs or you had to get a degree to go with it. My husband attended and the certificate is useless. I attended and there were no jobs available, the best I could get was seasonal. I sent an adultling to community college to get a degree in what used to be a program through the technical school. 🙃 Employers what that degree now.

Some career center pathways do require an additional degree or certification, and not all are directly leading into high pay, but they are solid stepping stones. The more STEM oriented ones lead to engineering adjacent fields that tend to offer options for employer paid training or college.

The allied health fields offer inroads to stable jobs in healthcare that offer similar options for more training.

Most importantly, your non-tech classes are still college prep. Maybe not all APs, though some kids are still able to schedule those at their home campuses. 

[Toocrazy!!]

DS kind of went the opposite way. He was pretty excited about NOT going to college and felt certain he could make something work. Unfortunately he wasn’t really into a trades idea, he tried a couple businesses on his own, and looked for entry level jobs with upward mobility. He’s a smart kid, and a good and reliable employee. He’d been working pretty much full time since he was 16 and had some relevant and varied work experience. But when he tried to apply for management trainee positions, office admin, even low level banking, he got zero interest. I know I’m a biased mom, but he would have been up to speed in any of those jobs quickly. None took a lot of technical knowledge. But without a degree, he couldn’t even get a look. Which I get, on paper, a person who made their way with some persistence and got a college degree looks like a better option. 
So, he’s at college this semester. We’ll see how it all ends up I guess. 

[Carrie12345]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

I wonder what percent of students really value that "whole college experience" thing.  I don't know, it isn't something anyone in my family ever did - we lived with our parents and commuted, or studied part-time while working full-time.  The first time I went to a college sports event was when my kid's gymnastics team performed in a halftime show.  😛

I'm currently hoping my kids attend the nearby state university that they can commute to from home.  It bugs me when other adults try to get one of them interested in applying for a so-called "good" school.  Even if they got a full ride (which they won't), spending 4 years in that bullshit environment would be a waste of time at best IMO.  I could see it if they had super high aptitude in a super highly paid field and couldn't get a comparable education elsewhere.  But that is a rare situation.

My boomer mom (sorry other boomers!) basically insisted on me doing “the whole experience”. I had received a full scholarship to a nearby business school that would have given me a good start in accounting (my major at the time.) She insisted I take the private college 4 hours away.

But I was an 18yo with undiagnosed adhd who had spent k-12 with all the same people in a boring town. I had the time of my life and lost my funding after the first semester.

So, yeah, lol, we don’t push the “experience” in my family!

Edited September 8, 2023 by Carrie12345

[SHP]

7 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Thank you! I see a little bit of a shift in the R/D dynamic for who is and is not going to college here. People less likely to aspire to college are more likely to be R, but the overall population still highly values college. And people here tend to be keep up with the Joneses types. There are also LOTS of colleges in this state and many flexible options, including CCs that are very well ranked. Those choosing other paths often have a connection; for instance, a local realtor’s kid went into electrical stuff. She know how hard it is to get an electrician to come out to fix something so that you can sell your house, so if he chooses to use this training, he might be working for every realtor in the county. 

Some career center pathways do require an additional degree or certification, and not all are directly leading into high pay, but they are solid stepping stones. The more STEM oriented ones lead to engineering adjacent fields that tend to offer options for employer paid training or college.

The allied health fields offer inroads to stable jobs in healthcare that offer similar options for more training.

Most importantly, your non-tech classes are still college prep. Maybe not all APs, though some kids are still able to schedule those at their home campuses. 

I hope realtors kid also takes business classes.

Those look like better career options than some of the ones here. We toured one and they had a food service program they were promoting heavily. I was not happy. At the time the projected annual income for it was $28,000. The program was aimed at inner city youth in the most impoverished areas. Dedicating that time in high school to go into a job that will basically keep them in poverty felt like it was a slap in the face. The wealthy suburban schools had better options and not one offered a food service program.

[SHP]

5 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

My boomer mom (sorry other boomers!) basically insisted on me doing “the whole experience”. I had received a full scholarship to a nearby business school that would have given me a good start in accounting (my major at the time.) She insisted I take the private college 4 hours away.

But I was an 18yo with undiagnosed adhd who had spent k-12 with all the same people in a boring town. I had the time of my life and lost my funding after the first semester.

So, yeah, lol, we don’t push the “experience” in my family!

Childhood BFF, is that you?

[kbutton]

11 minutes ago, SHP said:

I hope realtors kid also takes business classes.

Those look like better career options than some of the ones here. We toured one and they had a food service program they were promoting heavily. I was not happy. At the time the projected annual income for it was $28,000. The program was aimed at inner city youth in the most impoverished areas. Dedicating that time in high school to go into a job that will basically keep them in poverty felt like it was a slap in the face. The wealthy suburban schools had better options and not one offered a food service program.

This school offers culinary stuff also (not just food service), but the key is that it’s not in place of college prep. They might not go to college, but these are add-on classes. You spend your 9th and 10th grade years at your home school (this is a magnet school), and you take all the electives you need that are not career tech in addition to your core classes (gym, etc.). Then you apply to the career center (one in each county, and you can apply outside your county) for your junior and senior years. If accepted, you take the full academic load plus your career classes. They offer some DE, and if the schedule works, you can sometimes continue your core academics at your home school.

You can still apply to colleges and get scholarships.

ETA: our local one also has a reciprocal agreement with the local highly ranked CC where you get an automatic scholarship with them if you jump through very basic hoops.

Edited September 8, 2023 by kbutton

[Carrie12345]

15 minutes ago, SHP said:

Childhood BFF, is that you?

Am I that much of a cliché??? 🤣

[Faith-manor]

21 hours ago, Corraleno said:

• About half of U.S. adults say they have difficulty affording health care costs. About four in ten U.S. adults say they have delayed or gone without medical care in the last year due to cost, with dental services being the most common type of care adults report putting off due to cost.

  Substantial shares of adults 65 or older report difficulty paying for various aspects of health care, especially services not generally covered by Medicare, such as hearing services, dental and prescription drug costs.

  The cost of health care often prevents people from getting needed care or filling prescriptions. About a quarter of adults say they or family member in their household have not filled a prescription, cut pills in half, or skipped doses of medicine in the last year because of the cost, with larger shares of those in households with lower incomes, Black and Hispanic adults, and women reporting this.

  High health care costs disproportionately affect uninsured adults, Black and Hispanic adults, and those with lower incomes. Larger shares of U.S. adults in each of these groups report difficulty affording various types of care and delaying or forgoing medical care due to the cost.

  Those who are covered by health insurance are not immune to the burden of health care costs. About one-third of insured adults worry about affording their monthly health insurance premium, and 44% worry about affording their deductible before health insurance kicks in.

  Health care debt is a burden for a large share of Americans. About four in ten adults (41%) report having debt due to medical or dental bills including debts owed to credit cards, collections agencies, family and friends, banks, and other lenders to pay for their health care costs, with disproportionate 

 

But European countries where university is free or heavily subsidized for those who qualify, also generally have free or heavily subsidized training and apprenticeship programs for the majority of the population that do not go to college, so it's not at all the equivalent of "poor people paying for rich kids to go to college" while their own kids are stuck working fast food for minimum wage, it's more like the population as a whole agrees to educate the small-ish percentage of the population that are the most qualified, in order to fill the jobs that require that level of education, and then they pay for the rest to get training necessary to fill the other jobs that the country needs. And a college education doesn't necessarily provide a huge advantage in terms of income. For example, one reason healthcare costs are lower in European countries is because doctors don't come out of med school $150-200K in debt, and their salaries are generally much lower than in the US (e.g. average salary of a physician in the UK or Germany is ~$120-150K vs ~$350K in the US).

A ridiculous percentage of income for working class American families goes to health insurance, healthcare, and childcare, and many young families are still paying off debt from college, all of which are cheap or free in most of Europe. 

Adding to this, here is an article that illustrates another reason the younger generations do not believe they can get ahead, and question the value of going into debt for a college degree when they potentially face this scenario of debt as well.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/jun/1/kansas-county-jails-people-unpaid-medical-bills/

ETA: I could totally see this happening in my county. We have no cancer treatment center, no real anything but band aid station type county hospitals. Everyone travel 50-100 miles for healthcare, and often is out of town for long periods of time for appointments, especially for children. When my dad was getting chemo, I was out of town in one month, 23 days hauling him around appointments and hospitalizations. He was threatened with jail for missing a court hearing towards the end of his life because he was hospitalized. An officer was sent to the hospital to arrest him, failure to make a court appearance for failure to pay a court fee on time, and the nurse manager asked the cop how much medical training he had, and what tubes he thought should be removed in order to move the suspect. The officer declined to arrest him, and made some calls. Nothing I nor my mother said, in the weeks leading up to that made a hill of beans of difference to the court or the prosecutor. Show up or be arrested. Until oops, that doesn't exactly work. So I can 100% see how debtors prison that isn't called "debtors prison" could become a thing in more than just this one effed up county in Kansas.

 

Yes, it is perfectly legal to arrest someone over court fees, and it does happen. It isn't a far fetch for that to be because of being unable to pay or attend a hearing related to medical debt. I would hope most prosecutors have no desire to do it, and would shun the practice. But I also wouldn't hang my hat on it either because we had seen the rise of stupid in our system these past two decades.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Heartstrings]

Now we don’t just have to worry about bankruptcy from medical debt, we get the privilege of worrying about jail time on the way to bankruptcy.  

Edited September 8, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Now we don’t just have to worry about bankruptcy, we get the privilege of worrying about jail time on the way to bankruptcy.  

Right. It is illegal to send someone to jail, purely for the debt itself. But the court can assist hospitals and practitioners in collecting the debt, tack on more fees, and of course add court dates for very sick people and their caretakers, and then take punitive action over the added on fees and missed appearances.

Also, medical debt is estimated to be $195 million as of 2020, I am sure it is worse now, with 41% of adults reporting that they have medical debt...so marching ever closer to half the population. That had to be very scary numbers of Gen Z and the upcoming Gen Alpha.

We just paid off $15,000 and change for our Dd and sil from the birth of baby T. Premature. And they had "good insurance" and they had already paid their $10,000 deductible and then insurance decided simply not to pay several standard of care bills, and the hospital got snarky and was demanding a $500 a month payment, get a lawyer was the reply if there was any attempt to negotiate it. And he was born six weeks early because the insurance wouldn't pay for the $2500 progesterone shots that would have prevented it, and the practitioner would not offer the shots without insurance coverage because the OB was afraid of being stuck with the bill. So they ended up paying a $325,000+ hospital bill almost in full because they didn't want to pay $10,000 in shots, and the OB risked T's life for $10,000.00 even though we offered to pay for the first shot up front, cash on the barrel head as the saying goes.

Really. Absolutely anyone who thinks we have reasonable healthcare access and "most" people can afford healthcare is just certifiable. The evidence for this perspective is nothing more than pink elephants on parade thinking.

And all of this goes back to how late Millenials, GenZ, and rising Gen Alpha view their future, the practicality of post high school education, debt, their chances of leading even a modest middle class life in this country. They do not see it happening for them with good reason. And they are terrified of trades because the one thing a person cannot afford is to work a physically demanding job, get hurt and/or worn out, and end up buried in medical debt over it. Bad enough that any regular medical emergency can do it, but to deliberately go into something that greatly expands the risk is frightening. It isn't surprising that their best options are CS, medical licenses, and STEM.

But without musicians, writers, poets, literary oracles, journalists, artists, teachers, historians and archaeologists, AND railroaders, plumbers, drywallers, mechanics, and farmers, life is going to be very bleak, and society will go backward. We are already seeing that. To quote Mr. Holland's Opus, "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want, Gene. Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about."

We can do better as a nation. I seriously doubt there is a collective will to do it. That leaves 1/3 of one generation, and two whole generations after them facing the wretched consequences.

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Even if they got a full ride (which they won't), spending 4 years in that bullshit environment would be a waste of time at best IMO. 

I could see it if they had super high aptitude in a super highly paid field and couldn't get a comparable education elsewhere.  But that is a rare situation.

I don't understand this. What exactly is the horrific downside of spending four years living at a college that is fully paying for you to get a degree? How is that a waste of time "at best" — and what is it "at worst"?

I had a near-full-ride National Merit scholarship to an OOS LAC that literally changed my life (and may actually have saved it, because my home environment was so bad I was suicidal through much of my teens). It opened up a whole different world to me, exposed me to ideas and people that I had never encountered growing up, challenged my thinking and lit an intellectual fire in me that led to a top grad school. I would not be remotely the same person, and would not have had anything like the same life, if I had continued living at "home" (such as it was) and attended the mediocre local university (which also would have required large loans because they did not offer such generous scholarships).

DS has also had a near-full-ride to an OOS university that has all the bells and whistles people are talking about, and it has really challenged him and pushed him outside his comfort zone in ways that would not have happened while living at home and commuting to the nearest state uni (that doesn't even offer his major). He's had the experience of being part of a varsity team, being a leader and mentor to younger members, becoming friends with people from all over the world, including professors and grad students. He has a lot of social anxiety and being pushed to get out of the nest and explore the world and learn to solve problems on his own has been so good for him, and he had the amazing opportunity to study with some of the seminal professors in his major, in a department that is internationally ranked.

Neither of us majored in "super highly paid fields" but we broadened our minds and our perspectives and had amazing experiences, at very little cost to ourselves. I'm totally perplexed by the claim that this is a bad thing that should be discouraged except under the rarest of circumstances and only if the free education leads to a super high paying job. Why?

Edited September 8, 2023 by Corraleno

[kbutton]

59 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

ttps://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/jun/1/kansas-county-jails-people-unpaid-medical-bills/

The details of that article are the stuff of nightmares.

First, we’ve been sent to collection via bureaucratic errors—insurance paying the wrong doctor, the post office not delivering bills, etc. 

My college bound kid is So Screwed. He has medical issues that put him at risk of failing and 2e issues that do as well. The EF required to keep himself on the straight and narrow for just ONE of his disorders is so high that many adults can’t keep up and have less than optimal care. He has three rare disorders, none of which currently qualify him for disability. Some qualify him for a little state aid (which  we didn’t know about until recently, so we’ve paid for thousands and thousands we shouldn’t have had to over time), but there are tiers, and our income puts us on the edge of eligibility. My working part-time for pocket change that is meant to ease things a little might bump us back out of eligibility.

Working FT at all is nearly impossible for me for my own health reasons (fatigue and  stress of any kind, including fun stress exacerbate them) and because it’s darn near impossible with DH’s job and work hours. He’s less available in an emergency as he would be out of the country (he could answer his phone on vacay, lol, but not at work), so I am it. He gets no paid vacation and only gray area paid time off for illness or bereavement. To work in my field (daunting after many years out of it), I would have to work full time—part time is not really part time, it’s full time (and maybe more) part of the year due to product development cycles.

We can’t win for losing.

[kbutton]

13 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Right. It is illegal to send someone to jail, purely for the debt itself. But the court can assist hospitals and practitioners in collecting the debt, tack on more fees, and of course add court dates for very sick people and their caretakers, and then take punitive action over the added on fees and missed appearances.

Also, medical debt is estimated to be $195 million as of 2020, I am sure it is worse now, with 41% of adults reporting that they have medical debt...so marching ever closer to half the population. That had to be very scary numbers of Gen Z and the upcoming Gen Alpha.

We just paid off $15,000 and change for our Dd and sil from the birth of baby T. Premature. And they had "good insurance" and they had already paid their $10,000 deductible and then insurance decided simply not to pay several standard of care bills, and the hospital got snarky and was demanding a $500 a month payment, get a lawyer was the reply if there was any attempt to negotiate it. And he was born six weeks early because the insurance wouldn't pay for the $2500 progesterone shots that would have prevented it, and the practitioner would not offer the shots without insurance coverage because the OB was afraid of being stuck with the bill. So they ended up paying a $325,000+ hospital bill almost in full because they didn't want to pay $10,000 in shots, and the OB risked T's life for $10,000.00 even though we offered to pay for the first shot up front, cash on the barrel head as the saying goes.

Really. Absolutely anyone who thinks we have reasonable healthcare access and "most" people can afford healthcare is just certifiable. The evidence for this perspective is nothing more than pink elephants on parade thinking.

And all of this goes back to how late Millenials, GenZ, and rising Gen Alpha view their future, the practicality of post high school education, debt, their chances of leading even a modest middle class life in this country. They do not see it happening for them with good reason. And they are terrified of trades because the one thing a person cannot afford is to work a physically demanding job, get hurt and/or worn out, and end up buried in medical debt over it. Bad enough that any regular medical emergency can do it, but to deliberately go into something that greatly expands the risk is frightening. It isn't surprising that their best options are CS, medical licenses, and STEM.

But without musicians, writers, poets, literary oracles, journalists, artists, teachers, historians and archaeologists, AND railroaders, plumbers, drywallers, mechanics, and farmers, life is going to be very bleak, and society will go backward. We are already seeing that. To quote Mr. Holland's Opus, "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want, Gene. Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about."

We can do better as a nation. I seriously doubt there is a collective will to do it. That leaves 1/3 of one generation, and two whole generations after them facing the wretched consequences.

If her state has a children with medical handicaps program, in our state, prematurity is a qualifying condition, and it’s somewhat retroactive. 

These programs are the best kept secret on the planet.

[SKL]

32 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I don't understand this. What exactly is the horrific downside of spending four years living at a college that is fully paying for you to get a degree? How is that a waste of time "at best" — and what is it "at worst"?

You can get exposed to all those wonderful ideas as a commuting student.  What you don't get if you live there is the balance provided by the real-world experiences and non-liberal perspectives, to push back against the irrational stuff that tends to grow unchecked within university walls.

People who are still teens don't have the maturity to think critically about ideologies that they are immersed in.  I have fewer concerns about this occurring in grad school, when most students are less impressionable.

Maybe it was best for you given your circumstances, but it isn't best for the majority of teens IMO.

Another poster brought up mental illness support etc.  I have nothing against that, but a lot of individual issues could be mitigated by having teen students check in daily with their loved ones who know them well enough to detect problems as they develop, and care enough to address them timely.

I get that some campuses are remote.  I don't plan on sending my 17yos to such a remote place.  I lived rurally at that age, so I attended regional campuses of a state university so I could commute.  There were at least 3 such campuses within commuting distance when I was a student.  Their names would not impress you, but I really don't care about that.  They were good enough to qualify me for a more selective grad school, with a scholarship.

Edited September 8, 2023 by SKL

[regentrude]

29 minutes ago, SKL said:

You can get exposed to all those wonderful ideas as a commuting student.  What you don't get if you live there is the balance provided by the real-world experiences and non-liberal perspectives, to push back against the irrational stuff that tends to grow unchecked within university walls.

People who are still teens don't have the maturity to think critically about ideologies that they are immersed in.  I have fewer concerns about this occurring in grad school, when most students are less impressionable.

This is a very odd diatribe against university campuses. Students do have "real life" experiences because they are living real life. And sharing their life with people of different backgrounds,  views, nationalities, races, and beliefs is broadening their horizons in a much needed way - especially in a country where people increasingly segregate into echo chambers. You have a pretty dismissive view of young people and their abilities to engage with different thoughts.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by regentrude

[Ting Tang]

If my children are able to secure enough scholarships, I will be okay with the college experience for them.  For me, it is all about the debt.  Starting out in a lower-paying field (social services) is much easier when you don't owe big corporations big bucks.  I had a scholarship, but it wasn't enough. I lived with my parents.  And college was a lot cheaper then.  I am worried that a partial scholarship for a tuition bill that is $40k per year isn't going to do much good.  😞  I don't really worry about ideology so much, liberal or conservative, as long as opinions are respected.  We can all learn from each other.  

[Laura Corin]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

It is certainly true in for the STEM disciplines where academia salaries lag far behind those in industry. This is also the reason for the pay inequalities between professors of equal rank in different departments, with engineering faculty earning far higher salaries than anybody else - because they could make the biggest money if they chose a job in industry. Humanities faculty at same rank make significantly less, because there are fewer high paying jobs colleges have to compete with.

 

That's interesting.  Only full professors - 15 percent of faculty? - at the university where I work are on individually negotiated salaries.  Everyone else is on a salary based on job title and years of service in that role - with a ceiling at six years - whether they are teaching Hebrew or engineering.  I know precisely the salaries of my academic and support staff colleagues,  just from the published pay scales.

[Shoeless]

Just now, Ting Tang said:

If my children are able to secure enough scholarships, I will be okay with the college experience for them.  For me, it is all about the debt.  Starting out in a lower-paying field (social services) is much easier when you don't owe big corporations big bucks.  I had a scholarship, but it wasn't enough. I lived with my parents.  And college was a lot cheaper then.  I am worried that a partial scholarship for a tuition bill that is $40k per year isn't going to do much good.  😞  I don't really worry about ideology so much, liberal or conservative, as long as opinions are respected.  We can all learn from each other.  

Agreed, if my kid gets a scholarship that pays for campus living and he wants to go, then sure. But I am not going into debt for it, nor am I willing to work myself to death so he can have the experience. And I am going to argue strongly against him taking out loans to live in campus. At the places we are exploring, (state schools), tuition is affordable but room and board is where they make their money. 

[Ting Tang]

2 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

Agreed, if my kid gets a scholarship that pays for campus living and he wants to go, then sure. But I am not going into debt for it, nor am I willing to work myself to death so he can have the experience. And I am going to argue strongly against him taking out loans to live in campus. At the places we are exploring, (state schools), tuition is affordable but room and board is where they make their money. 

Yep!  It would be unwise for us to go into debt for our children to have the college experience.  I feel like that is for wealthy people.  (That's why they say student loans are a tax on the poor.) We need to prepare for our golden years.  I feel like we also lost a huge chunk of money to my student loans.  I am thankful I can share wisdom with my children, though.  

[Idalou]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

I don't understand this. What exactly is the horrific downside of spending four years living at a college that is fully paying for you to get a degree? How is that a waste of time "at best" — and what is it "at worst"?

I had a near-full-ride National Merit scholarship to an OOS LAC that literally changed my life (and may actually have saved it, because my home environment was so bad I was suicidal through much of my teens). It opened up a whole different world to me, exposed me to ideas and people that I had never encountered growing up, challenged my thinking and lit an intellectual fire in me that led to a top grad school. I would not be remotely the same person, and would not have had anything like the same life, if I had continued living at "home" (such as it was) and attended the mediocre local university (which also would have required large loans because they did not offer such generous scholarships).

DS has also had a near-full-ride to an OOS university that has all the bells and whistles people are talking about, and it has really challenged him and pushed him outside his comfort zone in ways that would not have happened while living at home and commuting to the nearest state uni (that doesn't even offer his major). He's had the experience of being part of a varsity team, being a leader and mentor to younger members, becoming friends with people from all over the world, including professors and grad students. He has a lot of social anxiety and being pushed to get out of the nest and explore the world and learn to solve problems on his own has been so good for him, and he had the amazing opportunity to study with some of the seminal professors in his major, in a department that is internationally ranked.

Neither of us majored in "super highly paid fields" but we broadened our minds and our perspectives and had amazing experiences, at very little cost to ourselves. I'm totally perplexed by the claim that this is a bad thing that should be discouraged except under the rarest of circumstances and only if the free education leads to a super high paying job. Why?

It's those darn commie liberal socialist profs infecting the minds of these 18-22 year olds! It's reading literature from black authors and gay authors! It's being invited to join diversity clubs and wackadoodle groups concerned with recycling and advocating against plastic products on campus! Don't you know there's not a single conservative club at those campuses? There are no Young Republican groups, or pro-life outreach stuff, no religious facilities. None. I've even heard they may ask kids to wear masks this coming winter. And some people say trans kids just walk around like its totally normal.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Idalou

[Faith-manor]

17 minutes ago, Idalou said:

It's those darn commie liberal socialist profs infecting the minds of these 18-22 year olds! It's reading literature from black authors and gay authors! It's being invited to join diversity clubs and wackadoodle groups concerned with recycling and advocating against plastic products on campus! Don't you know there's not a single conservative club at those campuses? There are no Young Republican groups, or pro-life outreach stuff, no religious facilities. None. I've even heard they may ask kids to wear masks this coming winter. And some people say trans kids just walk around like its totally normal.

You are definitely channeling my mother's pastor! Naughty, naughty you dark arts loving wizard, you! 😂😂😂

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

You can get exposed to all those wonderful ideas as a commuting student.  What you don't get if you live there is the balance provided by the real-world experiences and non-liberal perspectives, to push back against the irrational stuff that tends to grow unchecked within university walls.

People who are still teens don't have the maturity to think critically about ideologies that they are immersed in.  I have fewer concerns about this occurring in grad school, when most students are less impressionable.

Maybe it was best for you given your circumstances, but it isn't best for the majority of teens IMO.

 

See, mine did dual credit in high school and got "exposed" to those ideas.

For mine, it was a wonderful chance to be independent. I think I prepared them by loosening the reins in high school, but still.  To be at least paying a few bills, managing your time with absolutely no input from mom, choosing friends in a relatively safe environment.  It was a super good experience for all three of mine, though oldest was a little rocky.  He did have a mental health crisis there, but once again, he would have whenever he went away I believe.  And there, a prof noticed him stop coming to class as a senior and alerted the correct people.  I shudder to think what would have happened at a new job. They would have just thought he ghosted and I would have lost him.  When he returned there was scaffolding in place, not perfect, but so much better than he would have had out in the "real" world.  So for us, it was well worth it.  We didn't go into debt.  We saved from the time they were a few months old. Oldest cost the most, but the younger two with all of their scholarships and choice of school ended up going for what it cost me to go in the mid 80's. They ended up with a lot left over in their 529 plan, which middle one used to go to seminary. Not sure what youngest will do. 

Mine were completely mature and prepared to go off to school.  Heck one went 15 hours away and has done the absolute best. So, so proud of her. 

[Faith-manor]

32 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

That's interesting.  Only full professors - 15 percent of faculty? - at the university where I work are on individually negotiated salaries.  Everyone else is on a salary based on job title and years of service in that role - with a ceiling at six years - whether they are teaching Hebrew or engineering.  I know precisely the salaries of my academic and support staff colleagues,  just from the published pay scales.

It is getting increasingly common. Bleeding the academics and using only part time professors is totally normal in order to afford amenities, huge perks and salaries to college presidents and their direct underlings, think tank boards where people get a million dollars a year to show up to three meetings a year, shuttling money from on academics to sports by shady accounting, and all manner of shenanigans.  Saginaw Valley State University in Michigan has more part time faculty than full time. 268 FT, and 381 PT. Another jerky thing they do is refuse to increase the number of sections of much needed senior classes which prevents students from graduating on time because they are not willing to hire faculty.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

You can get exposed to all those wonderful ideas as a commuting student.  What you don't get if you live there is the balance provided by the real-world experiences and non-liberal perspectives, to push back against the irrational stuff that tends to grow unchecked within university walls.

While it’s likely true that you can potentially get exposed to all the wonderful ideas as a commuting student, I think the reality is that it is very rare for a commuting student to be on campus enough and participating fully enough in the campus life and community for it to happen in practice.

On-campus students are living in the real world hence they have real world experiences, both on and off campus. Perhaps because you were a commuter student you aren’t aware of that students routinely leave campus for all sorry of reasons including work (both paid and volunteer), outdoor recreation, fine arts performances, social activities, family/friend visits, etc. etc. In general, I’d say college students are exposed to a much more diverse range of opinions, ideas, people, etc. than most of us are in our daily lives. For most of us, our normal real world experiences on a daily basis are very narrow and homogenous, as we primarily generally live, work, and interact with those similar to us.

As for only being exposed to a liberal perspective on college campuses, nothing could have been further from the truth for my son who attended an university known to be very liberal in rankings. His honors college professors strongly encouraged students to share diverse viewpoints and he came out more conservative, not less. Not only did he feel like his more conservative viewpoints were encouraged and accepted, in some cases he thought they contributed when he was chosen for some pretty amazing special study programs. 
 

As for me, going from a small, rural, very homogenous town to a small LAC was life changing, literally. And my parents greatly enjoyed hearing about the different people, ideas, perspectives, (both liberal and conservative) food, etc., I was exposed to. To some degree, they grew and changed right along with me. I didn’t have to be living at home for us to discuss all these things, nor did they see the need to be sure I was getting “real world experiences” while living on campus (I still don’t understand what that means in this context, as my life at the time seemed pretty real and I was regularly interacting with people not associated with my college) or enough exposure to the non-liberal perspective. They trusted that I was a relatively mature, young adult who could think for myself. I truly believe the main reason my parents and I have always had such a good relationship as adults is because they treated me like an adult once I left home for college and put great trust in me. They certainly didn’t purposefully try to counterbalance what I was being exposed to at college or naively and erroneously assume it was all just from the liberal perspective.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

You can get exposed to all those wonderful ideas as a commuting student.  What you don't get if you live there is the balance provided by the real-world experiences and non-liberal perspectives, to push back against the irrational stuff that tends to grow unchecked within university walls.

I've been both I think there are pros and cons. Cost is definitely a pro for a commuting student. As for cons as a commuting student, it is the distance. As an on-campus student I felt more free to stay until 2 am in the lab. As a commuter student, I didn't feel safe doing so (driving 30 min after the 2 am lab session vs. walking 10 min or a 2 min drive). 

In terms of being exposed to people, it was the same for me. Maybe my experience is skewed since I worked full time when I was a commuter student. So, as a commuter student I spent a fair amount of time with a limited amount of people because well they were my coworker and I had very little time outside of work, commuting to school and school. When I lived on campus I did mostly hang out with the people I went to school with.

I guess along the lines of this thinking my kids are screwed because our state flagship schools would be those horrible elite universities that the college boards gripe about. 

[Idalou]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

You are definitely channeling my mother's pastor! Naughty, naughty you dark arts loving wizard, you! 😂😂😂

I have no idea what liberal things SKL thinks are going on within university walls, of course. But I do know this opinion is pretty common among my right-leaning in-laws. You can search the reasons anywhere on SM and they will all be in the same vein. It's touted on right wing news shows and radio. I sat with an extended family member at Christmas who thought all universities were 'infected' and useless, had been for years. So we got online and looked at where his Fox news favorites, Hannity and Carlson has gone to school and if he considered those bastions of liberal-ness, and then looked at where the kids of his respected politicians, and the Congressmen people themselves,  went to school. It seriously bothered him, because he knew exactly what they'd been telling him about college vs trade schools. We actually were in agreement on school debt and how important it was to be exposed to different people, and that certain trades people needed to be on the ball with things like math and geometry, etc, to do their best. I think it did open his eyes, though, to see the hypocrisy of some who chose to just be political mouthpieces.

 And I do think being a commuter student can be a great fit for many. However, I don't really understand the OP's point about campus life being ok for grad students, because in my world, grad students didn't spend a lot of time on campus doing campus-type activities. We took just a years worth of classes( 9 or 10?) and then were involved in group or individual research, not needing to be on campus every day, etc. They often had already married or had been in the workforce for a couple of years and really weren't interested in the clubs or social stuff, as much of the interaction was between other grad students and the advisors. They lived off campus and were already immersed in life outside of school.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Idalou

[Scarlett]

I think the college experience is way overrated and many many kids are no where near ready to live alone on someone else’s dime.

I remember being on this board when my son was looking at his options and many here said he needed to be on campus and commuting would hinder him.  

It did not.  He was married for 4 of his 5 years in college but he is an engineer now.  He never lived on campus and was never involved in the college experience. 

WhenI hear the expression college experience I don’t think of study groups.  I think of parties and more parties.  

[Scarlett]

I think there is a great difference between being educated and having a degree.  

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I think there is a great difference between being educated and having a degree.  

Especially today with so much access to education.  You tube, MITOpenCourseware, Great Courses, so many podcasts, instant downloads of books to Kindle,  etc. 

The only problem is proving that education to an employer.  Putting a ton of Great Courses, a Youtube series and a reading list on a resume won't get your hired anywhere.  

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

Especially today with so much access to education.  You tube, MITOpenCourseware, Great Courses, so many podcasts, instant downloads of books to Kindle,  etc. 

The only problem is proving that education to an employer.  Putting a ton of Great Courses, a Youtube series and a reading list on a resume won't get your hired anywhere.  

Correct. I think that would be embarrassing to even try.  
 

I do think there is an elitist mentality even on this board about ‘education’.  I think many over state the importance of education by degree.  
 

Don’t get me wrong……many fields need expertise of certain things.  But many do not.,

[Heartstrings]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Correct. I think that would be embarrassing to even try.  
 

I do think there is an elitist mentality even on this board about ‘education’.  I think many over state the importance of education by degree.  
 

Don’t get me wrong……many fields need expertise of certain things.  But many do not.,

I see some of that, for sure.  But I also see just a recognition of how much easier life is with that piece of paper.  How many doors it opens, how much earning potential it unlocks.  I know I had always planned on going to college, but my husband never planned on it.  He only went when he realized that at the ripe old age of 30 he had reached his max earning potential, and it was a pretty low potential.  Where we lived, with his skills, and certificates, he was maxed.  He had to go to college and get that paper to ever make more money.   

I 100% don't think it was necessary for him to get that degree, i think the certificates that he had, paired with years of experience, should have been enough to let him his way up, which was his plan when he got the certificates.  Unfortunately employers didn't seem to agree with that.  

College is such a strange combination of education for educations sake and basically a jobs training program.  I think that makes it hard to talk about sometimes.  

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

When I hear the expression college experience I don’t think of study groups.  I think of parties and more parties.  

Honestly I think partying is a way smaller part of most kids' "college experience" than people think. Of course some schools have reputations as big party schools, but even at those there is certainly a significant percentage of kids who are there to study not party. I think the media likes to focus on frat parties and hazing and kids getting wasted, but that has not been DS's experience at all — he's never been to a frat party and there's generally only even 1 large-ish party each year, which is a goodbye party for graduating seniors on his varsity team. Other than that there may be an occasional birthday or Halloween party, but most of the time kids are hanging out together, they're studying or eating or sitting in a dorm room chatting about life, or lying in the grass on the quad complaining about that last biochem lab or whatever. 

I went to a LAC that was known for partying, and although I did my fair share of it, I also got a truly amazing education, got into top grad schools, and was very well prepared for a PhD program despite those freshman parties. I lived on campus all four years and loved being able to instantly hook up with friends to get something to eat, listen to music, or stay up until 2 AM arguing about Kant and Kierkegaard. So many fond memories of those years that I never would have had if I'd been a commuter student at a big state U.

DD is commuting to the CC and she's happy with that, but part of me is a little sad that she's missing out on so many of the wonderful experiences that DS and I had. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Corraleno
commuter not computer

[Shoeless]

28 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Especially today with so much access to education.  You tube, MITOpenCourseware, Great Courses, so many podcasts, instant downloads of books to Kindle,  etc. 

The only problem is proving that education to an employer.  Putting a ton of Great Courses, a Youtube series and a reading list on a resume won't get your hired anywhere.  

 

36 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I think there is a great difference between being educated and having a degree.  

 

24 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Correct. I think that would be embarrassing to even try.  
 

I do think there is an elitist mentality even on this board about ‘education’.  I think many over state the importance of education by degree.  
 

Don’t get me wrong……many fields need expertise of certain things.  But many do not.,

Yes, I agree that there is a difference between education and having a degree.

There are a lot of really interesting things to learn about the world and a lot of it can be learned for free. Like my friend getting a degree in Women's Studies in the hopes of it leading to a job. I really hope she can find one, but yeesh. If I was struggling financially and trying to boost my employment options in my 40s, this is not the degree I'd choose. I'd simply study on the topic to my heart's content and go get a degree in accounting or cybersecurity or anything else! 

 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I think the college experience is way overrated and many many kids are no where near ready to live alone on someone else’s dime.

I remember being on this board when my son was looking at his options and many here said he needed to be on campus and commuting would hinder him.  

It did not.  He was married for 4 of his 5 years in college but he is an engineer now.  He never lived on campus and was never involved in the college experience. 

WhenI hear the expression college experience I don’t think of study groups.  I think of parties and more parties.  

You live in a region where partying at state colleges is de rigeur. That's not the case everywhere.

[Shoeless]

7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Honestly I think partying is a way smaller part of most kids' "college experience" than people think. Of course some schools have reputations as big party schools, but even at those there is certainly a significant percentage of kids who are there to study not party. I think the media likes to focus on frat parties and hazing and kids getting wasted, but that has not been DS's experience at all — he's never been to a frat party and there's generally only even 1 large-ish party each year, which is a goodbye party for graduating seniors on his varsity team. Other than that there may be an occasional birthday or Halloween party, but most of the time kids are hanging out together, they're studying or eating or sitting in a dorm room chatting about life, or lying in the grass on the quad complaining about that last biochem lab or whatever. 

I went to a LAC that was known for partying, and although I did my fair share of it, I also got a truly amazing education, got into top grad schools, and was very well prepared for a PhD program despite those freshman parties. I lived on campus all four years and loved being able to instantly hook up with friends to get something to eat, listen to music, or stay up until 2 AM arguing about Kant and Kierkegaard. So many fond memories of those years that I never would have had if I'd been a commuter student at a big state U.

DD is commuting to the CC and she's happy with that, but part of me is a little sad that she's missing out on so many of the wonderful experiences that DS and I had. 

I feel like every school I've heard of is labeled a "party school" 😂 Except the university in town. This is the quietest campus I've ever been on. No music thumping from the dorms, no one outside talking. It's kind of weird. 

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Honestly I think partying is a way smaller part of most kids' "college experience" than people think. Of course some schools have reputations as big party schools, but even at those there is certainly a significant percentage of kids who are there to study not party. I think the media likes to focus on frat parties and hazing and kids getting wasted, but that has not been DS's experience at all — he's never been to a frat party and there's generally only even 1 large-ish party each year, which is a goodbye party for graduating seniors on his varsity team. Other than that there may be an occasional birthday or Halloween party, but most of the time kids are hanging out together, they're studying or eating or sitting in a dorm room chatting about life, or lying in the grass on the quad complaining about that last biochem lab or whatever. 

I went to a LAC that was known for partying, and although I did my fair share of it, I also got a truly amazing education, got into top grad schools, and was very well prepared for a PhD program despite those freshman parties. I lived on campus all four years and loved being able to instantly hook up with friends to get something to eat, listen to music, or stay up until 2 AM arguing about Kant and Kierkegaard. So many fond memories of those years that I never would have had if I'd been a commuter student at a big state U.

DD is commuting to the CC and she's happy with that, but part of me is a little sad that she's missing out on so many of the wonderful experiences that DS and I had. 

Srsly. There was PLENTY of that at my school and none of my friends got caught up in it to the extent that we didn't graduate or weren't able to obtain good paying jobs. No regrets except...maybe...not flaunting what I had when it was still snatched, lol.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

I feel like every school I've heard of is labeled a "party school" 😂 Except the university in town. This is the quietest campus I've ever been on. No music thumping from the dorms, no one outside talking. It's kind of weird. 

Yes, that is, in fact, wierd. Youth is for the young. They *should* enjoy it. What're the outcomes and feelings 10-20 years later?

Edited September 9, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Frances]

On 9/8/2023 at 7:27 PM, Scarlett said:

WhenI hear the expression college experience I don’t think of study groups.  I think of parties and more parties.  

Neither my husband nor I drank or partied at our LAC (it was one of the things that attracted us to each other), but we both had amazing college experiences while getting a top notch education which launched us to top grad schools for STEM majors. For us, the college experience was attending plays, concerts, guest lectures, all campus dances, and the occasional sporting event; getting to really know our professors and them becoming life long friends (one is coming half way across the country to visit us again next month and next year we will travel with him and his wife to Central America) and colleagues (one of my husband’s profs took him along as a teaching fellow when he taught at Harvard during the summer and we both taught a course at our undergrad during grad school); being exposed to people from all different backgrounds with all different views and ideas; making life long friends, late nights talking and eating and discussing everything and nothing in our dorm rooms; taking on leadership roles and really growing in our ability to work with others; discovering new passions (art for my husband) while studying abroad and then adding it as a second major to complement the more practical STEM one; taking chances and pushing ourselves to new limits by trying different classes outside of our comfort zone; doing research with professors; being in a Shakespeare play while studying Shakespeare and a Spanish play while studying Spanish; trying lots of new foods and overcoming my pickiness; traveling (on the cheap or paid for by others due to academic success) for the first time in our lives (neither of us had ever flown before attending college), etc. etc. Coming from middle class families in the rural Midwest it was literally life changing for both of us and had nothing whatsoever to do with alcohol or parties.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I think there is a great difference between being educated and having a degree.  

Absolutely. I think a very small minority in this country is actually well educated. And I don’t include myself in that group, despite my degrees from excellent colleges.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Frances

[Ginevra]

Count me among those who wanted “the college experience” for my kids. I wanted them - finances and circumstances allowing - to live on or near campus for four years with other young people who would be dorm mates/roommates/flat mates. To me, this is not solely about partying, though partying as part of it is there. 
 

Living on campus is such fertile ground for making lifelong friends or meeting a life partner. It gives a young person far more ability to define who they are and want to be. 
 

My youngest was deciding between a public college where he could live on campus and a private commutable college where, financially, he couldn’t have. He chose the public with my enthusiastic blessing. I 100% prefer that he can live at school, join clubs, hang out with others in the rec spaces, learn to manage dorm life, eat with friends in the dining hall, exercise in the gym…over commuting to a school that is 80% commuters and non-traditional students and “just” focus on getting the degree. There is a place for that purpose but it’s not what I prefer for my young people. 
 

So far, no regrets.