oversubscribed/impacted majors

[kirstenhill]

Help me understand what we should know about the idea of oversubscribed or impacted majors.  Is this mostly a California thing? Or is it something to be concerned about for other large schools also? I see it mentioned now and again here on the board, but when I am googling, I am mostly seeing CA discussion.

DS16 is making his long list right now so we can plan some campus visits over the summer.  He is currently thinking a double major in math and computer science.  Math is his passion, but he wants to pair it with something else, which could potentially end up being something other than CS in the end I suppose.  The majority of his long list right now is Big10 flagship campuses (which includes our in-state flagship).  

With the idea of the double major, if the second major is CS, I guess part of what I am trying to figure out is will that end up making it harder to get in at some of the schools he is considering than if he just applied as a math major with a CS minor or picked a different 2nd major.  He's only a 10th grader so this is really the very beginning of his search, but I want to know the right questions to ask when we start in on visits.

DD18's major of Food Science is exactly the opposite type of major.  We were told over and over again that Food Science is a "found" major that many students switch to after starting as Chemistry or Chemical Engineering, so there was never any worry of too many freshman applicants.  All three schools she applied to were looking to expand the number of students in their departments through more outreach to let potential students know that the major even exists.

[Frances]

It’s not just a CA thing, but I also don’t think it’s a thing at all large universities. There is going to be a great deal of variation, but computer science is a common one to be impacted or oversubscribed. Which I find so discouraging given the supposed shortage of US computer science grads. For example, here’s the info for University of Washington:

https://admit.washington.edu/apply/admission-to-majors/

For CS, he would have to do an additional application and couldn’t get into that major after he was already enrolled, unlike for most of the other impacted majors. So it doesn’t appear he could get in as a math major and then add a CS major later.

I think you are probably going to have do research on a school by school basis. Although maybe some careful online searching might yield some sort of master list for prospective computer science majors.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Frances

[Arcadia]

18 hours ago, kirstenhill said:

.  He is currently thinking a double major in math and computer science.  Math is his passion, but he wants to pair it with something else, which could potentially end up being something other than CS in the end I suppose.  The majority of his long list right now is Big10 flagship campuses (which includes our in-state flagship).  

With the idea of the double major, if the second major is CS, I guess part of what I am trying to figure out is will that end up making it harder to get in at some of the schools he is considering than if he just applied as a math major with a CS minor or picked a different 2nd major. 

As to college applications, none of the colleges we look at ask for double major or what would be the minor. They look at 1st choice major and 2nd choice major listed on their application. DS18’s second choice major at our nearby impacted state university is applied math/computational math. That allows him to take computer science classes as compulsory and electives. We knew his chance of getting into computer science there is very slim so the applied math major is closest to his interests as a safety choice.

Since he is in 10th grade right now, go through the list and mark out which ones are impacted for computer science and which ones are impacted for all majors.  You could also find out on their webpage how to add a major or minor after being accepted.

e.g.

”Declaring Multiple Majors Within a College

To declare additional major(s) within the same college requires approval of the adviser of the majors involved and the Dean's office. You need consent of the department or committee in charge of your previous major, the consent of the department or committee in charge of your proposed new major and the approval of the dean of your college. A single degree is granted to students who graduate with multiple majors within the same college.

Declaring a Minor

If you are interested in two or more areas of study, you should consider completing one or more minor programs. You will find a complete list of the minors offered at ***** under Minor Programs in the General Catalog. If you want to have the completion of a minor certified on your transcript, you must complete the Minor Declaration webform and file it no later than the deadline for applying for graduation. Requirements for the minor must be met by the time of graduation”

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Finite apace in a major is why some colleges use direct admission to certain majors. Limiting the initial intake helps them graduate more students on time. 

Direct admission, caps on majors, and policies about changing majors are good topics to ask about on tours or in info briefs. 

Also, some colleges consider major across the board in admissions (ie, they admit by major). In some instances, admissions only looks at a second major listed after considering each student who had listed that major as their first choice. 

In some cases students need to decide if they really want to attend that college or really want to study that major. 

[ScoutTN]

Having a not wildly popular major can help with scholarships too, as my Dd who will be a French major has discovered. 

[Kristini2]

My middle is currently applying as a transfer, and we were surprised to get an email the day after she submitted her application to a mid-tier state school saying CS was an impacted major and if she wanted to come to their school she would need to pick a different major. The flagship in our state doesn't take transfers into CS either and is very difficult to get into as freshman. We are scrambling trying to find someplace for her to land next fall. 😞 We are not in CA, but are on the west coast.

ETA: This kid has a 4.0 in two years of college credits and a 1540 on the SAT, and we still struggling to find a place for her to go that won't be $40K plus a year. I wish she had known that is what she wanted to major in before that first university CS class, as it would have altered our initial college search, and she likely wouldn't be needing to transfer now. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Kristini2

[EmilyGF]

DS is going to a school where you can't transfer into CS. However, you can transfer into Math + CS, though your grades need to be stellar to do so.

 

[mckittre]

Given this issue with CS, what should a high schooler do (classes or otherwise) during high school to increase their chances of getting into a CS program? My kid is only just starting high school next year, but has loved CS for years. He's smart and a talented programmer but not a competitive personality -- reading things like this I'm worried he'll have to have that kind of competitive mindset just to be able to study CS at all at any university.

[catz]

4 hours ago, mckittre said:

Given this issue with CS, what should a high schooler do (classes or otherwise) during high school to increase their chances of getting into a CS program? My kid is only just starting high school next year, but has loved CS for years. He's smart and a talented programmer but not a competitive personality -- reading things like this I'm worried he'll have to have that kind of competitive mindset just to be able to study CS at all at any university.

Do you have a reasonable state flagship?  Actually, the best thing we did when my oldest was starting high school was sit down with a financial advisor to plan toward college and retirement and it really set a tone for college search for us because not everything is reasonably affordable for our budget.  If you can be full pay anywhere, well that is easy vs. if you need significant FA and/or merit are different types of college searches.

My son is studying CS at a flagship U (not our own) where they don't (officially) admit by major.  You do the initial sequence of classes and apply to the CS program, typically your sophomore year.  So plenty of people filter out getting through initial calc and programming. App numbers just go up and up, I'm afraid they are going to change this!  

I will say, my kid is not a competitive personality either.  He did have great stats to apply anywhere.  Keep up the math is the big thing.  And that doesn't necessarily mean rush to the next level, but have deep conceptul understanding and problem solving.   That tends to be the biggest bottleneck to getting through a rigorous CS major for lots of students.  (My spouse and I were also CS majors out of an engineering program).

Edited March 25, 2023 by catz

[kirstenhill]

17 hours ago, mckittre said:

Given this issue with CS, what should a high schooler do (classes or otherwise) during high school to increase their chances of getting into a CS program? My kid is only just starting high school next year, but has loved CS for years. He's smart and a talented programmer but not a competitive personality -- reading things like this I'm worried he'll have to have that kind of competitive mindset just to be able to study CS at all at any university.

There are definitely going to be options, regardless, at less competitive schools.  DH and I went to Iowa State University, and this is where DD ended up deciding to go (mostly because they offered a unique specialization with in her major, but the fact that she got an extra scholarship because we are alums didn't hurt).  They have an extremely high acceptance rate and generous merit for out of state.  It is a very STEM (and Ag) oriented school, so lots of CS and Computer Engineering students.  Is it prestigious? No, but DH and many friends in STEM fields have gotten great jobs after graduating from programs there.   This will definitely be my DS16's "safety" school on his list, as it will probably be cheaper for him even than our in-state flagship due to the merit aid and the scholarship for children of alumni, plus higher COL in the city of our in state flagship.

[EKS]

On 3/22/2023 at 2:15 PM, kirstenhill said:

Is this mostly a California thing?

It is also a University of Washington thing.

They say that the reason they haven't expanded the impacted programs is that it takes time (or something like that), but I think it's that it artificially inflates the "prestige" of their program because it's so hard to get into, and they like that.  

[Clemsondana]

Nursing is an impacted major at a lot of colleges because there are limits on how many students can do the hospital work each year.  For some majors, like CS, it has been a struggle to find good faculty in some specialties.  If a field is lucrative enough to have lots of students wanting to study it, it's often lucrative enough that people who are good at doing it can make a lot more money in the private sector than as a professor.  Coupled with the fact that it takes a certain personality to want to teach...it can be surprisingly hard to find people who are both good at tech and good at teaching.  Many faculty prefer the research part of their job and try to minimize teaching, which leaves the school still looking for instructors, adjuncts, etc and makes it hard to expand the number of seats available.  

[Frances]

2 hours ago, EKS said:

It is also a University of Washington thing.

They say that the reason they haven't expanded the impacted programs is that it takes time (or something like that), but I think it's that it artificially inflates the "prestige" of their program because it's so hard to get into, and they like that.  

I think you are probably right. Some of the top medical schools do the same thing. Keep their class size very small which keeps their admit rate very low and increases prestige and desire for a spot there. It’s all so discouraging when we constantly hear about  the US not having enough STEM people and more often than not, it’s blamed on students here not wanting to tackle the hard STEM majors. When in reality, much of it has to do with not enough education slots. We are seriously shortchanging our young people. 

University of Washington of all places, with the concentrated amount of tech in the Seattle area, should be majorly increasing opportunities. Compared to Washington and California, that’s maybe one benefit of not having as high ranked public universities. For example, I know some Oregon State University CS grads who have been basically able to write their own tickets in the Seattle metro area and the heavy recruiting started while they were still in undergrad.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Clemsondana said:

Nursing is an impacted major at a lot of colleges because there are limits on how many students can do the hospital work each year.  For some majors, like CS, it has been a struggle to find good faculty in some specialties.  If a field is lucrative enough to have lots of students wanting to study it, it's often lucrative enough that people who are good at doing it can make a lot more money in the private sector than as a professor.  Coupled with the fact that it takes a certain personality to want to teach...it can be surprisingly hard to find people who are both good at tech and good at teaching.  Many faculty prefer the research part of their job and try to minimize teaching, which leaves the school still looking for instructors, adjuncts, etc and makes it hard to expand the number of seats available.  

In my state, even harder than getting clinical training spots for nursing has been getting professors, due to the low pay compared to practicing nursing. The public programs here are finally looking at doing what the privates have done for years for programs like nursing and CS, paying those professors more. Even 25 years ago when my husband started in academia, the CS professors at his LAC were on a different pay scale than all other faculty.

[*LC]

On 3/24/2023 at 5:08 PM, mckittre said:

Given this issue with CS, what should a high schooler do (classes or otherwise) during high school to increase their chances of getting into a CS program? My kid is only just starting high school next year, but has loved CS for years. He's smart and a talented programmer but not a competitive personality -- reading things like this I'm worried he'll have to have that kind of competitive mindset just to be able to study CS at all at any university.

Many (most??) colleges do not require students to apply to a CS program. Before worrying too much about this issue, look into your state schools and other schools your kid may want to attend. 
 

Look for programs for your kid to show programming skills in competitions, classes and by volunteering. 

On 3/25/2023 at 10:27 AM, kirstenhill said:

There are definitely going to be options, regardless, at less competitive schools.  DH and I went to Iowa State University, and this is where DD ended up deciding to go (mostly because they offered a unique specialization with in her major, but the fact that she got an extra scholarship because we are alums didn't hurt).  They have an extremely high acceptance rate and generous merit for out of state.  It is a very STEM (and Ag) oriented school, so lots of CS and Computer Engineering students.  Is it prestigious? No, but DH and many friends in STEM fields have gotten great jobs after graduating from programs there.   This will definitely be my DS16's "safety" school on his list, as it will probably be cheaper for him even than our in-state flagship due to the merit aid and the scholarship for children of alumni, plus higher COL in the city of our in state flagship.

Yes to this. You do not need to go to a “reach school” to be successful in computer science. I remember this article from a few years ago about an Iowa State student in computer science that addresses that myth. (I have multiple family members and friends who graduated from different non-coast schools who work/thrive at the well-known tech companies. These people include both recent grads and those who graduated last millennium, (just to make it sound dramatic.

After graduation, my family/friends have moved to wherever they wanted for work including to tech headquarters.

I forgot to attach the article.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michellecheng/2016/06/09/degree-vs-school-which-helped-this-college-junior-land-internships-at-google-and-microsoft/?sh=e3e72d169c70
 

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by *LC
Added the article I mentioned

[Matryoshka]

On 3/24/2023 at 5:08 PM, mckittre said:

Given this issue with CS, what should a high schooler do (classes or otherwise) during high school to increase their chances of getting into a CS program? My kid is only just starting high school next year, but has loved CS for years. He's smart and a talented programmer but not a competitive personality -- reading things like this I'm worried he'll have to have that kind of competitive mindset just to be able to study CS at all at any university.

You don't have to be competitive to get into CS.  CS in the real world is collaborative.  My dd did do Robotics teams in middle and high school, but the team worked together, and it was that process that she enjoyed.  She applied directly and got into CS majors at all the schools she applied to (may not be necessary to direct apply everywhere, but it was at the northeast schools she applied to - the CS sequence is often very proscribed, and you can't get into the classes without being in the major, so switching in later can delay graduation).  She turned down a full-tuition scholarship at a SUNY school, as when visiting they were clear that there the atmosphere was competitive rather than collaborative.  The other schools she looked at weren't like that at all.

She's now working in CS, and being able to work well on a team is a very important part of the job.  Programmers with huge egos abound, but are not the ones you want to work with.  She got into some more 'name-brand' (RIT, WPI, URochester) but decided on an in-state public (not even the flagship), where she had great coops and had a fantastic job offer for after graduation before even starting her senior year.  You don't need to be at a name-brand school.  Real-world experience is the best (so look for good coop/internship programs)

Edited March 29, 2023 by Matryoshka

[freesia]

3 hours ago, *LC said:

Many (most??) colleges do not require students to apply to a CS program. Before worrying too much about this issue, look into your state schools and other schools your kid may want to attend. 
 

Look for programs for your kid to show programming skills in competitions, classes and by volunteering. 

Yes to this. You do not need to go to a “reach school” to be successful in computer science. I remember this article about this from a few years ago about an Iowa State student in computer science that addresses that myth. (I have multiple family members and friends who graduated from different non-coast schools who work/thrive at the well-known tech companies. These people include both recent grads and those who graduated last millennium, just to make it sound dramatic.)

After graduation, they have moved to wherever they wanted for work. 

Absolutely. My son works as a programmer and his degree was in philosophy. His friend who graduated from a non-big name university got a job right out of school at a company you would have heard of. If the major is over subscribed at one school, another is fine. 

[Lilaclady]

On 3/25/2023 at 10:36 AM, EKS said:

It is also a University of Washington thing.

They say that the reason they haven't expanded the impacted programs is that it takes time (or something like that), but I think it's that it artificially inflates the "prestige" of their program because it's so hard to get into, and they like that.  

I don’t think so for cs. Most schools will like to expand but can’t find faculty as it pays far better in industry than in academia. 

[EKS]

4 minutes ago, Lilaclady said:

Most schools will like to expand but can’t find faculty as it pays far better in industry than in academia.

I suspect that a school like UW would be able to find people just fine.

[JennyD]

9 hours ago, Lilaclady said:

I don’t think so for cs. Most schools will like to expand but can’t find faculty as it pays far better in industry than in academia. 

Yes, this is what my friend who is a professor of computer science says.  The pipeline of future academics hasn't expanded rapidly enough to meet the huge increase in undergraduate demand.  It will catch up eventually but right now all of his classes are wildly oversubscribed.  He could easily fill every class he teaches three times over.

I have been asking lots of questions about oversubscribed classes and majors as we tour colleges this year.  Over and over again, the answers I get when I ask about difficulty getting into classes are: economics and computer science.  

 

 

[Clarita]

9 hours ago, EKS said:

I suspect that a school like UW would be able to find people just fine.

Curious why you would think that UW would have an easy time?

I would think for these majors all colleges would have trouble recruiting for. To get a job in industry you would be well compensated with just a bachelor's degree (and really be able to move through all the pay grades, maybe if you want to swap over to be CEO you might get an MBA). To be a professor you'd have to get a PhD and work with college students for not a massive pay bump if any. I mean you can do it because you love and are passionate about teaching. For everyone else why would they consider it?

[JennyD]

11 hours ago, EKS said:

I suspect that a school like UW would be able to find people just fine.

IME, public universities have more trouble responding to fast-changing hiring needs than do private institutions, because public universities are more constrained in how much money they can quickly throw at the problem.   But what I gather, comp sci faculty hiring is a challenge for everyone right now.  

Edited March 31, 2023 by JennyD

[Farrar]

I think it's worth emphasizing again that there will be options in the vast majority of cases no matter the major. The problem comes when people see an admit rate that seems super friendly to getting in, and they don't realize that it's much, much smaller for certain majors. And then some people feel like they're owed a spot at that school or that they deserve a spot at their state flagship if their kid did x, y, or z or if their kid was more studious that kid a, b, or c that they happen to know. And that's just not how it works. I agree with others that it's not going to change soon, not for CS or nursing or some engineering programs. It's just hard going to find enough faculty for those programs. 

It's a little rougher in California. But it's a thing in the majority of states.

[EKS]

2 hours ago, Clarita said:

Curious why you would think that UW would have an easy time?

Not an easy time, but easier than second or third string universities.  It is a world class school, so I would think that people would be motivated to work there.  

[EKS]

59 minutes ago, JennyD said:

IME, public universities have more trouble responding to fast-changing hiring needs than do private institutions, because public universities are more constrained in how much money they can quickly throw at the problem. 

At UW this has been going on for years.  Decades.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, JennyD said:

IME, public universities have more trouble responding to fast-changing hiring needs than do private institutions, because public universities are more constrained in how much money they can quickly throw at the problem.   But what I gather, comp sci faculty hiring is a challenge for everyone right now.  

It’s hard to imagine that a place like University of Washington could have not multiple endowed chairs in the CS department if they desired, given the enormous tech wealth in Washington, ditto for several of the CA universities. The problem is not at all new at places like UW. How is it that much lower ranked state universities have an adequate number of CS faculty? 

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Clarita said:

Curious why you would think that UW would have an easy time?

I would think for these majors all colleges would have trouble recruiting for. To get a job in industry you would be well compensated with just a bachelor's degree (and really be able to move through all the pay grades, maybe if you want to swap over to be CEO you might get an MBA). To be a professor you'd have to get a PhD and work with college students for not a massive pay bump if any. I mean you can do it because you love and are passionate about teaching. For everyone else why would they consider it?

It’s not just teaching. They are also getting to do cutting edge research at a place like UW. Many faculty at top universities also have lucrative consulting contracts. Some people are also drawn to the lifestyle of being a college professor.

[Bootsie]

On 3/30/2023 at 9:04 PM, Frances said:

It’s hard to imagine that a place like University of Washington could have not multiple endowed chairs in the CS department if they desired, given the enormous tech wealth in Washington, ditto for several of the CA universities. The problem is not at all new at places like UW. How is it that much lower ranked state universities have an adequate number of CS faculty? 

I think that they do indeed have multiple endowed chairs in CS.  However, the politics, and funding, on university campuses is often much different than what one would think.  The specifics can vary greatly from campus to campus, but it is often not the case in which a department's budget is directly related to the number of majors that they have.  I teach in a department that has seen a huge growth in student enrollment in the last few years--so that we are now the largest major on campus and are struggling to offer enough sections of our classes, but our faculty lines have not increased proportionately.  The university does not want to provide more funding for new faculty to one college than it does another.  Within the college, new faculty positions are not necessarily allocated based upon student enrollment in majors.  The dean will have a goal of increasing the profie of a particular area of study.  Or, the dean wants to make sure that faculty representation in college-wide decisions does not become stronger from certain departments.  The oversubscribed major may already be a strong department and the dean wants to build up another department; perhaps there are accreditation issues in another department that need to be addressed by hiring a star faculty member (based upon their research) in that area.

Also, individual departments, and perhaps even colleges, are often disuaded from doing any fund raising or courting of potential donors for an endowed chair for their department.  The university wants to be in control of the fundraising and decisions of where the money is going to be used.  While the CS department might have great contacts with Mr. ComputerWhiz, the can't approach him about funding a faculty position because the Board of Trustees has placed new dorm space, a new audtiorium, student scholarships, or some other initiative as a priority.  

[Clemsondana]

In spouse;s computing-related field, some people would be looking at at least a 50% pay cut to go to a university - many private companies require long hours, but the schedule is flexible and people are well compensated.  The gap in actual salary may not be 2X, but with stock options, which universities can't offer, and bonus packages that vary but can be large some years, they would have to truly love the university lifestyle to choose it.  And, at that point they wouldn't be doing research full-time.  It may be cutting edge, but if they are actually going to teach classes it would, at best, be part time.  Travel would also be more restricted.  Pre-covid, spouse was often out of town M-F, 2 weeks/month.  There have been times when he spent a week every month working with colleagues in another country.  That can't happen for university professors because they have to be there to teach.  

In spouse's area, there seem to be 3 places that people go after grad school - industry, national labs, and universities.  University professors in computing are financially very comfortable, but universities are competing against the other 2 types of employers and usually pay the least while also allowing the least time for research.  It's a comfortable life, but, having been through grad school and seeing what their professors' lives are like, people know that they will spend a lot of time teaching, grading, going to committee meetings, and writing grand proposals.  They will supervise students doing cutting-edge research, but they won't be doing much of it themselves.  That would have appealed to me, actually - the idea of only having to do bench science when I was training a new student sounded lovely when I was post-doc-ing, but many computing people like doing the actual work and aren't as interested in pursuing a job where they don't get to do it.  

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Clemsondana said:

In spouse;s computing-related field, some people would be looking at at least a 50% pay cut to go to a university - many private companies require long hours, but the schedule is flexible and people are well compensated.  

Here people who retired from tech industries do like teaching as a part time lecturer at community college for their online classes. One of my teachers there has worked all his life in tech and teaching from home means he can teach at any community college. He does 3 hrs of office hours and 4 hours lecture weekly and puts in the effort. 

My husband declined a job being a lecturer when he was in his late 20s. Bureaucratic red tape is what turns him off teaching. I am good at mentoring work interns but I can’t teach a class well. 
 

ETA:

We are looking at ASU online if DS17 needs a slower paced degree program. The online programs can thrive with retired people who can teach but would prefer to do it from home. My lecturer rather not drive at his age.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Arcadia

[Frances]

6 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

In spouse;s computing-related field, some people would be looking at at least a 50% pay cut to go to a university - many private companies require long hours, but the schedule is flexible and people are well compensated.  The gap in actual salary may not be 2X, but with stock options, which universities can't offer, and bonus packages that vary but can be large some years, they would have to truly love the university lifestyle to choose it.  And, at that point they wouldn't be doing research full-time.  It may be cutting edge, but if they are actually going to teach classes it would, at best, be part time.  Travel would also be more restricted.  Pre-covid, spouse was often out of town M-F, 2 weeks/month.  There have been times when he spent a week every month working with colleagues in another country.  That can't happen for university professors because they have to be there to teach.  

In spouse's area, there seem to be 3 places that people go after grad school - industry, national labs, and universities.  University professors in computing are financially very comfortable, but universities are competing against the other 2 types of employers and usually pay the least while also allowing the least time for research.  It's a comfortable life, but, having been through grad school and seeing what their professors' lives are like, people know that they will spend a lot of time teaching, grading, going to committee meetings, and writing grand proposals.  They will supervise students doing cutting-edge research, but they won't be doing much of it themselves.  That would have appealed to me, actually - the idea of only having to do bench science when I was training a new student sounded lovely when I was post-doc-ing, but many computing people like doing the actual work and aren't as interested in pursuing a job where they don't get to do it.  

I think the amount of teaching done by professors at universities varies greatly depending on the level of school and type of professorship. Some professors barely teach at all while others only teach. At the Ivy I attended for grad school, my advisor was a well known researcher and taught zero or one courses each year. And while he supervised students work for their theses  and dissertations, all of his published work was his own or in collaboration with other professors. At my son’s university, some of the professors were teaching professors and had no research requirements, but could do it as time allowed. At my undergrad LAC, most professors did very little research, except during the summer, and focused on teaching. Also, teaching adjuncts are being used more and more every year, even at elite institutions. So much of the teaching at many universities is not actually done by tenure track professors.

[Frances]

On 4/1/2023 at 5:19 PM, Bootsie said:

I think that they do indeed have multiple endowed chairs in CS.  However, the politics, and funding, on university campuses is often much different than what one would think.  The specifics can vary greatly from campus to campus, but it is often not the case in which a department's budget is directly related to the number of majors that they have.  I teach in a department that has seen a huge growth in student enrollment in the last few years--so that we are now the largest major on campus and are struggling to offer enough sections of our classes, but our faculty lines have not increased proportionately.  The university does not want to provide more funding for new faculty to one college than it does another.  Within the college, new faculty positions are not necessarily allocated based upon student enrollment in majors.  The dean will have a goal of increasing the profie of a particular area of study.  Or, the dean wants to make sure that faculty representation in college-wide decisions does not become stronger from certain departments.  The oversubscribed major may already be a strong department and the dean wants to build up another department; perhaps there are accreditation issues in another department that need to be addressed by hiring a star faculty member (based upon their research) in that area.

Also, individual departments, and perhaps even colleges, are often disuaded from doing any fund raising or courting of potential donors for an endowed chair for their department.  The university wants to be in control of the fundraising and decisions of where the money is going to be used.  While the CS department might have great contacts with Mr. ComputerWhiz, the can't approach him about funding a faculty position because the Board of Trustees has placed new dorm space, a new audtiorium, student scholarships, or some other initiative as a priority.  

This is all very helpful and interesting. But could it not also be true that in some cases a dean wants to keep a particular excellent program small and very selective so that it helps to keep its elite and sought after status?

[Clemsondana]

10 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think the amount of teaching done by professors at universities varies greatly depending on the level of school and type of professorship. Some professors barely teach at all while others only teach. At the Ivy I attended for grad school, my advisor was a well known researcher and taught zero or one courses each year. And while he supervised students work for their theses  and dissertations, all of his published work was his own or in collaboration with other professors. At my son’s university, some of the professors were teaching professors and had no research requirements, but could do it as time allowed. At my undergrad LAC, most professors did very little research, except during the summer, and focused on teaching. Also, teaching adjuncts are being used more and more every year, even at elite institutions. So much of the teaching at many universities is not actually done by tenure track professors.

Right, it depends on the school - in my grad school department at a state U it was common for faculty to only teach 1 class and complain about even that, while in spouse's at another state U in a different field it was typical to teach 2 each semester.  But, the question keeps being asked 'Why can't they expand the number of seats by hiring more faculty?' and faculty that don't teach won't help with that problem.  Adjuncting or even full-time instructor jobs don't pay enough, so while some place might get lucky and find somebody who wants to work part-time (a retiree, a mostly stay-at-home parent) or somebody who is geographically stuck (married to somebody who can't move, caregiver for parents, etc) usually there isn't a good solution.  And, most retirees that we know choose consulting instead of teaching.  Even when we were in school 20-30 years ago, there were challenges finding people to teach in the computing fields while there were a glut of qualified PhDs floating around the bio sciences.  Spouse actually taught a 400 level undergrad class while still a grad student because they couldn't find anybody to do it.  The extra $ was great on top of a grad student fellowship, but doesn't compare with what the starting salary is after graduation.  

[Frances]

16 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

Right, it depends on the school - in my grad school department at a state U it was common for faculty to only teach 1 class and complain about even that, while in spouse's at another state U in a different field it was typical to teach 2 each semester.  But, the question keeps being asked 'Why can't they expand the number of seats by hiring more faculty?' and faculty that don't teach won't help with that problem.  Adjuncting or even full-time instructor jobs don't pay enough, so while some place might get lucky and find somebody who wants to work part-time (a retiree, a mostly stay-at-home parent) or somebody who is geographically stuck (married to somebody who can't move, caregiver for parents, etc) usually there isn't a good solution.  And, most retirees that we know choose consulting instead of teaching.  Even when we were in school 20-30 years ago, there were challenges finding people to teach in the computing fields while there were a glut of qualified PhDs floating around the bio sciences.  Spouse actually taught a 400 level undergrad class while still a grad student because they couldn't find anybody to do it.  The extra $ was great on top of a grad student fellowship, but doesn't compare with what the starting salary is after graduation.  

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written, but it’s still the case that there are lots of people teaching CS all over the country at all different levels of colleges and if a top ranked program really wanted to expand and was allowed to by the university administration, they could poach people from other colleges and universities. It happens all the time in other fields. I know several professors who were lured away from lower ranked schools to higher ranked ones, both in the LAC world and the R1 world. It just doesn’t make sense to me that the most elite, highest ranked programs would not be at an advantage when hiring from a limited pool of candidates.

[Clemsondana]

4 hours ago, Frances said:

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written, but it’s still the case that there are lots of people teaching CS all over the country at all different levels of colleges and if a top ranked program really wanted to expand and was allowed to by the university administration, they could poach people from other colleges and universities. It happens all the time in other fields. I know several professors who were lured away from lower ranked schools to higher ranked ones, both in the LAC world and the R1 world. It just doesn’t make sense to me that the most elite, highest ranked programs would not be at an advantage when hiring from a limited pool of candidates.

They would definitely be at an advantage, but hiring academics can be complicated by other issues.  If they've been somewhere for a while, they may be waiting for their state retirement to vest.  Academics are often married to other academics, and just because the CS dept makes an offer doesn't mean that the Biology or English dept is eager to hire the spouse.  For our first job out of grad school, we both looked at job postings (postdocs for me, faculty for him based on different patterns in our areas) and eliminated anything where the other couldn't find a job.  it would be far worse looking for 2 faculty positions.  Uprooting an entire lab can be complicated - maybe less of a problem in CS departments, but if a faculty member has a trusted admin, lab manager, research faculty staff, etc that person/those people may not want to move, and that could cause disruption that makes it not worth it to the faculty member.  Clearly people do change jobs just like any other field, but people also have preferences and if they mange to meet enough of them they stay put.  We drew a line across the country and won't move north of it - we both dislike cold weather.  We also moved to an area where we could buy several acres the first time we had the chance.  Having done that, it would take an awful lot to get us to move.  Other people are working from a different list of issues - proximity to family, needing to stay in-state for kids to finish college.  And, in the end all that recruiting would do is expand the number of seats at one school - it still wouldn't increase the total number of seats unless the lower prestige school can now find somebody to fill the vacated position so that they don't lose instructor capacity.  

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Clemsondana said:

And, in the end all that recruiting would do is expand the number of seats at one school - it still wouldn't increase the total number of seats unless the lower prestige school can now find somebody to fill the vacated position so that they don't lose instructor capacity.  

I agree the two body problem can be real. I was focusing on universities with impacted majors, so wasn’t considering the downstream effects. Although I would guess some of the lower level schools might have much lower completion rates, so it would still be more advantageous overall for schools with strong programs to expand, especially state universities that are more affordable for many families.