First Dual Enrollment Recommendations?

[wendyroo]

Peter is a rising 9th grader, and next year he and I both feel he would benefit from a dual enrollment class.
Our reasons are a mix of:
1) To start getting used to how college works (Peter has autism and needs a lot of scaffolding to figure out new environments)
2) For academic challenge
3) To perhaps knock out a couple low level classes so he might not need to take them at a four year university in the future

Peter already has a very strong high school transcript:
Math through Pre-Calc
Honors Spanish through level 5
Physics and Honors Chemistry (both public school credits)
Honors US History, Government and Econ (all public school credits)

Here are some dual enrollment courses we are considering:
At the local community college (mediocre quality, very cheap):
- General Psychology
- English Composition I (Peter HATES writing, but is good enough at it that I expect he would do fine and hopefully be able to transfer the credit)
- Introduction to SolidWorks (This is something Peter is interested in at the moment)
- HTML Essentials
- Descriptive Astronomy (This is a 4 credit class with a lab component. Peter is fascinated by black holes and how math describes them.)

One of three small, local, religious liberal arts colleges (higher quality, religious aspect makes Peter uncomfortable, much more expensive):
- A 301 level Spanish class, either grammar/composition focused or reading/discussion/conversation focused

Any been-there-done-that advice?
Thanks!

Edited March 12, 2023 by wendyroo

[Kassia]

I would definitely start with a subject you both feel confident he will do well in so that he can focus on learning how to manage a college schedule, expectations, the syllabus, etc. while not struggling with content.  My dd started at 13 with Spanish, which she had already mastered independently and then we gradually added classes from there until she was attending DE full time in her junior year.  Good luck!

[BusyMom5]

There is a maturity factor that goes into college classes that he may not be ready for.  Keep in mind some classes will have group assignments and other students may not want to pair up with a 14 year old.  I would go to the colleges you are considering and find out options and suggestions- instructors make a big difference.  I really like our DE Psychology class- its online and all high schoolers.  2 of mine have taken it so far, its the perfect first class because it combines a need to follow syllabus, read and take notes, remember the discussion boards, online quizzes and tests, but its also interesting and the teacher is always prompt with feedback.  She let's them know any time she will be away from the computer.   For other classes and instructors,  its been hit or miss.  I would hate for you to sign up and have a bad instructor,  so definitely ask for recommendations.  

I would also ask yourself what you see going forward in regard to college.  I'm planning a different path for my boys because I think they will benefit more by taking higher level math at home, then taking it at college.  They have plenty of time.   

[wendyroo]

15 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

There is a maturity factor that goes into college classes that he may not be ready for.  Keep in mind some classes will have group assignments and other students may not want to pair up with a 14 year old. 

I guess, as to the bolded, I don't really care what the other students want. The colleges allow dual enrollment starting in 9th grade, and all of those classes are on the approved list. That means Peter has just as much a right to be there as anyone else according to the college. Maybe if there is a group project, it will be a chance for the older students to learn to work with someone outside their comfort zone, which will serve them well in the workplace.

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I really like our DE Psychology class- its online and all high schoolers.  2 of mine have taken it so far, its the perfect first class because it combines a need to follow syllabus, read and take notes, remember the discussion boards, online quizzes and tests, but its also interesting and the teacher is always prompt with feedback.  She let's them know any time she will be away from the computer. 

I doubt Peter will be taking any online college classes. He, like many students, does not learn nearly as well in a virtual environment. My whole goal is getting Peter used to inhabiting college spaces, attending office hours, studying in the library, etc. For that he needs to be on campus. If he does end up taking online classes they will be AOPS or something else rigorous that he could not get at home, not community college classes. 

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I would go to the colleges you are considering and find out options and suggestions- instructors make a big difference.   For other classes and instructors,  its been hit or miss.  I would hate for you to sign up and have a bad instructor,  so definitely ask for recommendations.  

We definitely are looking at Rate Your Professor feedback...though at this point the colleges haven't published the schedule of which classes will be taught when by whom. We did see that one of the astronomy professors got really good reviews for really good reasons.

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I would also ask yourself what you see going forward in regard to college.  I'm planning a different path for my boys because I think they will benefit more by taking higher level math at home, then taking it at college.  They have plenty of time.   

Yeah, I don't expect Peter will take many upper level math classes at the college - those will be better handled at home. He is taking Calculus in 9th using MIT OCW, and he is interested in calc-based physics the following year. But with the colleges we have locally available, I don't know if it makes sense to do that through DE or if MIT OWC would be better.

Spanish is one area that will almost certainly have to transition to DE. We have a possible plan for next year cobbled together with lit guides and MOOCs and private tutors, but sooner rather than later DE will be the logical answer. I also think it will serve Peter well to crank through Writing 101 and Psych 101 because I think it is likely those will transfer where ever he goes and limit how many "boring" classes he has to push himself through once he is out on his own.

[The Governess]

My dd’s first two classes were an intro to bio class for non-majors and a photography class. She was 14 and age wasn’t an issue. Both worked well as first college courses and were subjects that would have been harder for me to facilitate at home which is whey we chose them.

I’d say to try the HTML or astronomy class first. My dd took a writing course through the college when she was 17 and some of the topics were a bit mature for a 14 year old.

[Farrar]

I would not start with Spanish unless he loves it and it's a bit behind what he's done already. I wouldn't do English because it's not his thing. 

I would choose any of the others and base it more on schedule and Rate My Professor reviews.

[Guest]

Many language classes require students to watch movies in that language. My college Spanish class required us to view a Pedro Almodovar movie. It contained a very disturbing scene that I was not ready for even as a 19 or 20 year old. So if you’re thinking about upper level Language courses, you may want to research that aspect. 
 

my DD’s class requires her to view 4 movies each semester. The prof provided a list. She watched all the ones she would have felt comfortable with in the first semester. So this semester she would have had to start watching ones that contained material or themes she wasn’t comfortable with. Thankfully this prof is very reachable and very supportive of younger students, so I helped her curate a list of alternatives that her prof approved. But not every Prof. is like that

[Matryoshka]

3 hours ago, WTM said:

Many language classes require students to watch movies in that language. My college Spanish class required us to view a Pedro Almodovar movie. It contained a very disturbing scene that I was not ready for even as a 19 or 20 year old. So if you’re thinking about upper level Language courses, you may want to research that aspect. 

my DD’s class requires her to view 4 movies each semester. The prof provided a list. She watched all the ones she would have felt comfortable with in the first semester. So this semester she would have had to start watching ones that contained material or themes she wasn’t comfortable with. Thankfully this prof is very reachable and very supportive of younger students, so I helped her curate a list of alternatives that her prof approved. But not every Prof. is like that

I took Spanish Conversation (300 level class) at a local college my senior year of high school, as I'd run out of Spanish at my high school.  A conversation class should be just that, conversation, not watching movies.  

Honestly I'm surprised they'd watching movies in any advanced (300+) language class that isn't specifically a class that is about movies/culture. Classes at the higher levels are usually past grammar and more focused on topics like Literature of X period/country or Movies/Culture of X period/country or Conversation. What level of Spanish class had you and your dd watching movies?  Or were they movie/culture class?

[Roadrunner]

English here has some very adult conversations about very adult topics. I wouldn’t do English in 9th grade. But it could be different where you are. I would ask around locally. 

I swear some professors really dislikes having younger kids in the classroom. I am facing this situation as we speak with my younger kid. Negativity we experienced hasn’t been from classmates but from teachers.

I would do something that’s easy and he likes. For us it was music. 

[Clemsondana]

Intro to psych is a common first DE class because the content isn't too challenging. 

At our CC, they won't allow students to take English until 12th grade...that seems too late and it might be possible to get an exemption, but the point is that there is content there that I wouldn't necessarily choose for a 14 year old.  Of all of the co-op subjects, the English teacher has the biggest struggle choosing books that illustrate points without being 'too much' for each age, and college instructors won't be trying to make that adjustment because they are supposed to be teaching adults.  Some kids would do fine, but it wouldn't be my first choice. 

I also know students who take Spanish as one of their early DE classes.  I've seen the advice to start a little behind where you are so that you can adjust to the schedule without being overwhelmed.  

Other students do well starting with something STEM because there's less interpretation so age/experience matters less.  While a young student might struggle to understand some of the behaviors in a work of literature, mitosis or the laws of physics or C+ programming is mostly just dependent on academic ability.  

As for the group work, it really depends.  It may never be an issue, but the type of students and their schedules can vary.  Traditional students may schedule group meetings between classes.  But, I taught a CC class where the students formed a great study group.  Most of them had jobs, and the group met from 8-10 on Friday nights.  Any student would have been welcome, but it might not have been a great fit for a 14 year old (or it might - it depends on the kid).  

[Malam]

18 hours ago, wendyroo said:

Physics and Honors Chemistry (both public school credits)
Honors US History, Government and Econ (all public school credits)

Are these highschool classes?

[wendyroo]

6 minutes ago, Malam said:

Are these highschool classes?

Yes. He is in a virtual public school program which allows a lot of freedom.
This year he is taking:
Pre-Calc (their standard high school level)
Advanced US History (their honors high school level)
Advanced Chemistry (their honors high school level)
8th grade English (middle school level)

But he has already finished math and English for the year, so we decided he would self-study Gov and Econ (which are not interests of his at all) and test out of them just to get them on his transcript in the least painful way. He also tested out of Physics, which he took at a high school level at home last year, since that is typically what the public school 9th graders take and they needed him to pass that before they could let him take Advanced Chem.

[Roadrunner]

I am circling back to English. 
If you have a sense of what classes overall going forward you want your DS to take at CC, I would check the prerequisites now because as I am looking locally, English is a prerequisite of a lot of them. So you might need that either way. Now that I am remembering, this is the reason we used CC very sparingly for my older DS. 

[wendyroo]

9 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I am circling back to English. 
If you have a sense of what classes overall going forward you want your DS to take at CC, I would check the prerequisites now because as I am looking locally, English is a prerequisite of a lot of them. So you might need that either way. Now that I am remembering, this is the reason we used CC very sparingly for my older DS. 

I've looked, and at our local CC, English was not a pre-rec for many of the science/tech classes. And for some of the classes like Psych that do have an English pre-rec, it could be fulfilled by either a class or a high enough English placement score, which Peter should be able to get easily enough.

So I do think it would be good for him to take English 101 before he graduates from high school, but we are not in any huge hurry.

[Lilaclady]

I won’t do Spanish grammar for a first class. Maybe the astronomy or solid works or html. Those are not likely to have questionable content that others like English or Spanish might have. My DD took intermediate Spanish 201 and 202 and did a 3 week travel to Chile and Argentina staying with host family. She took advance Spanish grammar and still struggled some as the grammar was different from what she had done before so I’ll be careful with that. 

[Roadrunner]

I think with foreign language it’s a matter of looking at what textbook they are using. We avoided using CC for a foreign language because in our case the hours expected was ridiculous. They used a textbook with an online component and you had to click away for hours a day to get through all they assigned. If it had been a more traditional approach with a textbook, we would have gone for it. I didn’t think there was any questionable content there, just a lot of busywork. So that would be very individual to each professor. 

[teachermom2834]

I think these things vary so much that if you have any access to other parents/students/professors/administrators familiar with the specific courses and instructors that is the best place to start. My kids have done de in a few places and there were always rock star instructors that came recommended or specific classes that were very de friendly or ones to absolutely be avoided that you might not know any way other than word of mouth. All the suggestions upthread are solid but our best advice always came from people “in the know”. 

[Eos]

To your first post, I would think about the type of place he eventually wants to end up for college and his personal comfort level with surroundings.  Some kids are much more affected by environment so maybe the religious element would prove too uncomfortable?  On the other hand, if he intends to go to a LAC, maybe getting his scaffolding in a similar space would be the most useful.  

I did DE at a community college and at a large city university, neither of which helped me at all in the small LAC environment I eventually landed at for college. Mediocre may turn him off too much.  The expensive one might still be the cheapest college credit he'll ever get.

Three of my kids did DE at a small LAC and although one then went to an engineering school, they all thrived in their small DE classes and took important lessons to college in terms of faculty expectations, class interactions, time management, etc.  My oldest chose a small engineering school rather than the large ones since he had already figured out what he liked about a smaller community.

Good luck choosing, this is an exciting step!

 

[wendyroo]

1 minute ago, Eos said:

To your first post, I would think about the type of place he eventually wants to end up for college and his personal comfort level with surroundings.  Some kids are much more affected by environment so maybe the religious element would prove too uncomfortable?  On the other hand, if he intends to go to a LAC, maybe getting his scaffolding in a similar space would be the most useful.  

I did DE at a community college and at a large city university, neither of which helped me at all in the small LAC environment I eventually landed at for college. Mediocre may turn him off too much.  The expensive one might still be the cheapest college credit he'll ever get.

Three of my kids did DE at a small LAC and although one then went to an engineering school, they all thrived in their small DE classes and took important lessons to college in terms of faculty expectations, class interactions, time management, etc.  My oldest chose a small engineering school rather than the large ones since he had already figured out what he liked about a smaller community.

Good luck choosing, this is an exciting step!

 

Peter will probably end up at a STEM school. He talks about my alma mater, MIT, but I think it would be a horrible fit for him. The University of Michigan could be a solid choice since we are residents. We might find that we have to prioritize available accommodations - more and more schools are offering autism/mental health support services for students who need more structured support with independent living, interacting with peers and professors, executive function, etc.

[gonejustcouldntdelete]

On 3/12/2023 at 5:14 PM, wendyroo said:

I guess, as to the bolded, I don't really care what the other students want. The colleges allow dual enrollment starting in 9th grade, and all of those classes are on the approved list. That means Peter has just as much a right to be there as anyone else according to the college. Maybe if there is a group project, it will be a chance for the older students to learn to work with someone outside their comfort zone, which will serve them well in the workplace.

 

I think that what @BusyMom5meant is that they may be unwilling to work with him on group projects. Very rarely do professors assign the groups in college. Also, even if the professor does force a group to accept your ds for a project, they can still not fully include him in the process - either intentionally or unintentionally - or they can simply have relevant/semi-relevant conversations that are inappropriate for a teen, especially a younger one. 

In other words, yes, your son has a right to be there, but that doesn't mean the other students - or even the professors - will make any sort of accommodations due to his age/maturity. In your situation, it might be best to ask around and see which courses are most-populated by high schoolers because those courses would still give your ds an introduction to college in a slightly more controlled environment. 

Of the courses you suggested, General Psychology or Descriptive Astronomy seem the best fit, with the latter being slightly more preferable simply because Psych can easily get into age-inappropriate topics. 

[Eos]

Just now, wendyroo said:

Peter will probably end up at a STEM school. He talks about my alma mater, MIT, but I think it would be a horrible fit for him. The University of Michigan could be a solid choice since we are residents. We might find that we have to prioritize available accommodations - more and more schools are offering autism/mental health support services for students who need more structured support with independent living, interacting with peers and professors, executive function, etc.

I'm voting for the Descriptive Astronomy, then!

[wendyroo]

I guess I am confused what everyone considers "age-inappropriate" topics that might come up in English, Spanish or Psych classes.

I took dual enrollment Psych when I was 13. Nothing remotely inappropriate or uncomfortable was taught.

I took a film class at 15 where we watched Lolita and many other mature films, and my parents did make sure I knew what the films were about prior to watching them in class, but neither they nor I considered any content "inappropriate" to be exposed to.

I can't really think of any topics I would not talk to Peter about. Just recently he was reading a condensed version of Don Quixote in his Spanish 5 class, and the teacher emailed parents to explain how she had glossed over the word for wench and just talked about how Don Quixote saw the women as fair maidens because "his blurred vision of reality actually helped him see the best in people". At home I made sure that Peter understood the terms wench and prostitute, and we looked them up in Spanish. Then we talked about the stereotype that prostitutes are bad people who can only be looked at with respect if your vision is blurred.

I guess I would feel differently if I thought Peter would be uncomfortably put on the spot to give his views on mature topics in front of the class, but that has never been my experience. IME, teachers rarely push students to openly discuss uncomfortable topics if they don't want to.

[lmrich]

6 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

I guess I am confused what everyone considers "age-inappropriate" topics that might come up in English, Spanish or Psych classes.

I took dual enrollment Psych when I was 13. Nothing remotely inappropriate or uncomfortable was taught.

I took a film class at 15 where we watched Lolita and many other mature films, and my parents did make sure I knew what the films were about prior to watching them in class, but neither they nor I considered any content "inappropriate" to be exposed to.

I can't really think of any topics I would not talk to Peter about. Just recently he was reading a condensed version of Don Quixote in his Spanish 5 class, and the teacher emailed parents to explain how she had glossed over the word for wench and just talked about how Don Quixote saw the women as fair maidens because "his blurred vision of reality actually helped him see the best in people". At home I made sure that Peter understood the terms wench and prostitute, and we looked them up in Spanish. Then we talked about the stereotype that prostitutes are bad people who can only be looked at with respect if your vision is blurred.

I guess I would feel differently if I thought Peter would be uncomfortably put on the spot to give his views on mature topics in front of the class, but that has never been my experience. IME, teachers rarely push students to openly discuss uncomfortable topics if they don't want to.

My daughter had a class where she had  to  research present a talk on deviant se3ual behavior. It was for  a  public  speaking class. The  idea was if you could talk about  something that is so uncomfortable... That was when she was 17. So  you never know.

[Farrar]

14 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

I guess I am confused what everyone considers "age-inappropriate" topics that might come up in English, Spanish or Psych classes.

I took dual enrollment Psych when I was 13. Nothing remotely inappropriate or uncomfortable was taught.

I took a film class at 15 where we watched Lolita and many other mature films, and my parents did make sure I knew what the films were about prior to watching them in class, but neither they nor I considered any content "inappropriate" to be exposed to.

I can't really think of any topics I would not talk to Peter about. Just recently he was reading a condensed version of Don Quixote in his Spanish 5 class, and the teacher emailed parents to explain how she had glossed over the word for wench and just talked about how Don Quixote saw the women as fair maidens because "his blurred vision of reality actually helped him see the best in people". At home I made sure that Peter understood the terms wench and prostitute, and we looked them up in Spanish. Then we talked about the stereotype that prostitutes are bad people who can only be looked at with respect if your vision is blurred.

I guess I would feel differently if I thought Peter would be uncomfortably put on the spot to give his views on mature topics in front of the class, but that has never been my experience. IME, teachers rarely push students to openly discuss uncomfortable topics if they don't want to.

Yes, I agree. When my kid started dual enrollment at 15 yo, I was fine if they talked about sex, sexuality, gender, violence, etc. in an academic context, such as in art, politics, literature, film, etc. We are not a family that shies away from any of those topics with our kids once they're teens, especially once they were about 15 yo. 

I get that some families are not okay with their kids reading literature or viewing films that include those themes. I think it's more that you have to remind them that those might be included and that adults taking the courses might bring adult experiences with those themes to the discussions. And that parents have zero say about that. It's not like a high school class -- and definitely not like a co-op class -- where a parent can say, hey, wait, I don't want my kid to read this story that includes discussion of trans identities or discuss this law that involves sex workers. 

[gonejustcouldntdelete]

4 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

I guess I am confused what everyone considers "age-inappropriate" topics that might come up in English, Spanish or Psych classes.

I took dual enrollment Psych when I was 13. Nothing remotely inappropriate or uncomfortable was taught.

I took a film class at 15 where we watched Lolita and many other mature films, and my parents did make sure I knew what the films were about prior to watching them in class, but neither they nor I considered any content "inappropriate" to be exposed to.

I can't really think of any topics I would not talk to Peter about. Just recently he was reading a condensed version of Don Quixote in his Spanish 5 class, and the teacher emailed parents to explain how she had glossed over the word for wench and just talked about how Don Quixote saw the women as fair maidens because "his blurred vision of reality actually helped him see the best in people". At home I made sure that Peter understood the terms wench and prostitute, and we looked them up in Spanish. Then we talked about the stereotype that prostitutes are bad people who can only be looked at with respect if your vision is blurred.

I guess I would feel differently if I thought Peter would be uncomfortably put on the spot to give his views on mature topics in front of the class, but that has never been my experience. IME, teachers rarely push students to openly discuss uncomfortable topics if they don't want to.

In AP Psychology, we spent a decent amount of time on sex, drugs, abuse, etc. One of my classmates did a research project that basically consisted of her asking boys in the school if they preferred breasts or butts, etc. Our district ended up putting a rule in place limiting it only to juniors and seniors because of the content.

Our district limits English 111 and 112 (Composition 1 and 2) to seniors. The material is often controversial (abortion, voter ID laws) and/or mature/sexual because the professor thinks they inspire enough of a feeling that students care to learn how to properly support their opinion. 

With regards to Spanish, a lot of courses use more slang/vulgarity. Locally, the community college's intermediate courses covered cartels - including videos/pictures of mutilated bodies. 

 

If you personally don't think you have any issues with exposure to most content, that's great! However, it might still be worth considering that even if you are okay with your ds being exposed to that kind of material, he might not be ready to have an adult conversation about it.

[wendyroo]

1 hour ago, lmrich said:

My daughter had a class where she had  to  research present a talk on deviant se3ual behavior. It was for  a  public  speaking class. The  idea was if you could talk about  something that is so uncomfortable... That was when she was 17. So  you never know.

I would not have a problem with Peter researching that. I would certainly be available at home if he had questions about anything he learned, but I would not try to censor any information. And, yes, I expect he would be somewhat uncomfortable presenting about that topic, partly because he doesn't love public speaking to start with, and also obviously because the topic was chosen as one that most people, teens and adults, would be uncomfortable presenting.

I think the lesson I would teach is to scrutinize the syllabus long before drop date to decide if there are any unexpected assignments that you are not comfortable completing. 

[Malam]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

It's not like a high school class -- and definitely not like a co-op class -- where a parent can say, hey, wait, I don't want my kid to read this story

But you can ask for a syllabus and reading material before registering (or at least, before the add-drop deadline) to see if you want to take the class or not, can't you?

Assuming the best, I think the English class would be the best since writing is one of the hardest subjects to self teach (certainly more than any other of the options) and therefore he'd stand to gain the most from feedback and the student writing center. Colleges tend to have a lot more dedicated support for math and English than for other subjects, so there's another benefit

Edited March 14, 2023 by Malam

[Farrar]

3 hours ago, Malam said:

But you can ask for a syllabus and reading material before registering (or at least, before the add-drop deadline) to see if you want to take the class or not, can't you?

Assuming the best, I think the English class would be the best since writing is one of the hardest subjects to self teach (certainly more than any other of the options) and therefore he'd stand to gain the most from feedback and the student writing center. Colleges tend to have a lot more dedicated support for math and English than for other subjects, so there's another benefit

You can, but it's not always going to be predictable. A class discussion in a politics class that's meant to be about federalism might end up using an example about a more sensitive topic. A class discussion in a literature course might ask students to relate the work to other things and cause students to bring up other works of literature the parent wouldn't approve. A class with student presentations might have a student who chooses a topic the parent might not like. Essentially, no one is going to censor the discussion as if there are children present. No one is going to consider the needs of children before letting a class explore a tangent in their discussion. Just honestly, some parents can't handle that.

Since so many people have said the writing course over and over, I'll say again, I would not subject a kid who hates writing to a college writing course for his first class. And what's hard for one person to teach is easy for another. I couldn't teach SolidWorks or html. I can absolutely teach writing.

[Roadrunner]

In my experience the only place local homeschool parents reported really sexualized content that made kids very uncomfortable and unable to participate was English. History and government and social sciences generally haven’t been a problem. But again the crowd around me doesn’t really censor anything, so by high school discussions of atrocities, genocides, slavery…. wouldn’t be considered inappropriate. 
I don’t know. 
 

[BusyMom5]

On 3/12/2023 at 4:14 PM, wendyroo said:

I guess, as to the bolded, I don't really care what the other students want. The colleges allow dual enrollment starting in 9th grade, and all of those classes are on the approved list. That means Peter has just as much a right to be there as anyone else according to the college. Maybe if there is a group project, it will be a chance for the older students to learn to work with someone outside their comfort zone, which will serve them well in the workplace.

I doubt Peter will be taking any online college classes. He, like many students, does not learn nearly as well in a virtual environment. My whole goal is getting Peter used to inhabiting college spaces, attending office hours, studying in the library, etc. For that he needs to be on campus. 

You seem offended by my advice,  but it wasn't meant to be personal.  I think you may be looking at this the wrong way.  He is 14, and kids in college are typically 18+.  While I am sure that group projects might possibly work out, enough kids struggle with them that I would never suggest them for a younger DE student.  Why?  

Just because he is smart enough to take and pass the class does not mean that an 18 year old will be willing or happy to partner with him in a group project- it can create a power inbalance.  My older college student has had trouble with this being the youngest (still 18) in upper level classes (classmates over 21).  It is frustrating, but she's able to handle it. A 14 year old- even one without autism- would find it very difficult to navigate a bad group dynamic.  You are hoping whomever he gets as a partner will be mature enough to want to work with him on his terms.  Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it. 

14 and 18 are worlds apart in terms of maturity in topics, hangouts, and even availability.  Kids get together and work late- like 2AM- sometimes.  They may get together any day of the week,  not just the days they have the class. They may meet up at places you may not want him to just hang around at for hours. You are picturing the library.   I'm picturing a dorm or someone's apartment with alcohol 😉  My DD has had groups want to meet at the bar to brainstorm (300 level class, she was 18). 

There was a post, I think on the main board, a few weeks ago regarding group projects.  It might help you see what I'm saying.  If a class was known to have group projects, I would avoid it until he's at least 16.

After reading your response I asked my two older kids- both did DE at 16, currently they are 18 and 20- and they have 15 year old brothers- what they would think if they were put into a group project with a 14 year old in a college class.  Both thought it was a bad idea to put the 14 year old in that position- bc groups can be hard enough. My kind-hearted DD worried about his communication skills.  She would try to work with him, but figured it would be kind of like babysitting,  not equal students working together.  She would try to humor him, but wouldn't be happy about a 14 year old partner.  Depending on the exact project, she thought she could make it work, but thought it would probably sound less-mature than she would prefer.  

 

As for mature topics in other types of classes, with regard to being 14.  I will give our experiences as an example.   One English class is essentially Hot Topics 101- every essay is about a current political hot topic.  Every one.  My girls have both taken it, they hated it!  They often had trouble relating to some of the topics.  For one, my DD made up an entire fictional story about a stereotypical person bc she couldn't relate at all.  Parts of these classes are perfect for high school- stuff regarding sources, editing, organization- but the depth wanted when writing about those topics is something most 14 year olds don't have exposure to quite yet.  I know even at 17 or 18, my girls hadn't picked up on substance abuse in family members- and we do talk about it, they just hadn't connected the dots.  I feel like the college-level class is asking for a deeper connection with the topics.  It isn't just knowing X can lead to Y - they need to be connecting the dots themselves, not you having to show him how they are connected. I'm not sure if this makes sense, but these topics sparked a lot of discussions with my kids.   We had talked about all of them, but at 17-18, they start to see them differently.  They also had people they knew in those situations now, like the kid from elementary school who has 2 kids at 18 and has a hard time getting a job.  The struggles she has and will have took on a whole new meaning when discussing poverty.  

So- what would I recommend? Probably history, intro to computers, the astronomy sounds good.  Something he finds interesting.  I would vet every class and ask around about syllabi, classroom procedures, professor, and classroom dynsmic.  Also how much time typically per week for the class. 

Best of luck!

 

[Malam]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:49 PM, Farrar said:

And what's hard for one person to teach is easy for another.

Agreed - I said self-teach, not teach. I know plenty of kids who learned html or CAD from online tutorials, but every good writer seems to have gotten a lot of feedback while learning. With HTML and CAD, a student can get feedback immediately from the computer, whereas with writing, feedback needs to come from a human (for now). 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Malam

[Ellie]

My vote is for whatever he can actually get into because there's room. What he doesn't take this semester he can take next semester.

[Roadrunner]

Honestly teachers can make or break the class. If you have some teachers with great reputation and kids who rave over them, take those classes. 
My kids have taken DE mostly in STEM and never had to work in any group.  I did have a 15 year old in Calc based physics who worked in lab in a group and actually had great interactions with some of those “kids” (over 18). Maybe we got lucky or maybe we chose right classes, but neither of my kids have felt any strangeness from classmates. Granted a lot was online but even live ones have been fine. My 16 year old is now in the same physics class and nobody pays any attention to him at all. 

[wendyroo]

9 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

You seem offended by my advice,  but it wasn't meant to be personal. 

Not offended, just frustrated for all the asynchronous kids who will never actually fit in well anywhere.

Peter really, really does not fit in with his age peers...just as I didn't at that age. Academically he is about 5 years ahead. He is much more capable of and comfortable with discussing his (well thought out and supported) views on assisted suicide with an adult than talking about TV, movies or video games with his peers. The other day at a Spanish conversation group, an adult tried to convince Peter that carbon dating was a scientific hoax and that evolution is completely made up, and Peter was able to explain his point of view and defend the scientific method fully in Spanish.

So I do find it frustrating that your daughter assumes that she would have to "babysit" a 14 or 15 year old in a group project. I mean, I'm sure some dual enrollment students will struggle in groups (struggle and mistakes are how we learn, and group projects are purportedly for learning to be a team just as much as they are for academic learning), but let's remember that the thread about the hellish group projects was primarily about problems with typical age college students, so there are also plenty of 18+ year olds who struggle in groups. Why should we hold a 14 year old back academically just because they have the same challenges in group situations as many of the other students?

And, it is frustrating to hear:

Quote

Just because he is smart enough to take and pass the class does not mean that an 18 year old will be willing or happy to partner with him in a group project- it can create a power inbalance.  My older college student has had trouble with this being the youngest (still 18) in upper level classes (classmates over 21).  It is frustrating, but she's able to handle it. A 14 year old- even one without autism- would find it very difficult to navigate a bad group dynamic.  You are hoping whomever he gets as a partner will be mature enough to want to work with him on his terms.  Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it. 

because that is framing it as Peter being an interloper in a class where he doesn't belong. Would we say the same things if we were talking about a student in a wheelchair or a deaf student? Would we care if the other students we "willing or happy" to partner with someone with a disability? Would we "hope" that group members would make reasonable accommodations to allow a differently abled group member to participate and contribute? Or would be expect and demand it because all students have a right to access their education and working with diverse people is an important life skill? If three group members want to meet at 2am, and the fourth member is deaf and cannot meet then because public transportation is not running then...would we tell the deaf student they just shouldn't take any classes with group projects because they aren't ready for a college environment?

[Kassia]

@wendyroo my kids who did DE were similar - didn't fit in with kids their own age and were ahead academically.  Dd's favorite classes were intermediate Spanish where there were students of all ages - she was the youngest but there were typical college age students and also middle-age and even older adults (they were auditing the class).  It was a great experience for her.  

ETA - she never experienced any issues with students not wanting to pair with her or be in a group with her in any of her classes.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Kassia

[Farrar]

Just applauding your general response, @wendyroo. Community colleges are there to serve a wide array of needs. Giftedness is a need. 

 

[Clemsondana]

I don't think that it's a problem to take CC classes as a younger student.  But, there are subjects where youth can make the class material more challenging to deal with.  I also have a kid who is academically ahead.  Our co-op already has broad age groupings, and kids can take classes with older ages with teacher approval, which is pretty much always given if the kid can behave.  So, my 4th grader happily took middle school Latin with 7th and 8th graders.  My middle schooler took a high school theology class.  So, I was unprepared when this same kid struggled with reading The Screwtape Letters as a freshman.  The kid had read other CS Lewis books that were much harder reads and found them interesting.  But, Screwtape examines various temptations, and kid couldn't really relate.  Lust is much less of a thing for a kid who isn't yet shaving.  Jealousy or status envy?  This kid isn't inclined towards that anyway, but as a homeschooler kid had actually never seen or recognized it in a social group.  It was really eye-opening to me to see what my very mature kid didn't understand.  Kid could have intellectual debates about complex and abstract topics, but when it came to real life experiences a freshman hasn't yet had many of the experiences that will occur for most people by the end of high school.  Whether it's an issue in any given class depends on content.  Some humanities classes could be a challenge, and others won't, depending on the class focus.  All of that is unlkely to be an issue in a math, coding, or science class, which is why I recommended starting there. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Clemsondana

[gonejustcouldntdelete]

Your son is entitled to take dual enrollment courses if that's legal where you are and if he's academically capable. Nobody is debating that. In fact, nobody has said that he shouldn't. 

However, you asked for recommendations regarding which course would be the best option for a first dual enrollment course, and people have offered suggestions along with their reasoning. You've argued with several people regarding their "why." 

Yes, it must be frustrating to not hear what you want. But please understand that nobody is giving advice to hurt your son. It's quite the opposite; nobody wants him to have an avoidably bad experience, especially if it's his first college experience. 

 

With regards to your last question, I live in a rural area without public transportation, so my response my be a little different than if I lived in the city. Try something like Über or Lyft or a taxi if that's available. Ask if a project member could pick you up. If the internet is good enough, try a video call with closed captioning. Etc. Basically, I would expect an adult to work the problem. 

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, countingoncoffee said:

Your son is entitled to take dual enrollment courses if that's legal where you are and if he's academically capable. Nobody is debating that. In fact, nobody has said that he shouldn't. 

However, you asked for recommendations regarding which course would be the best option for a first dual enrollment course, and people have offered suggestions along with their reasoning. You've argued with several people regarding their "why." 

Yes, it must be frustrating to not hear what you want. But please understand that nobody is giving advice to hurt your son. It's quite the opposite; nobody wants him to have an avoidably bad experience, especially if it's his first college experience. 

 

With regards to your last question, I live in a rural area without public transportation, so my response my be a little different than if I lived in the city. Try something like Über or Lyft or a taxi if that's available. Ask if a project member could pick you up. If the internet is good enough, try a video call with closed captioning. Etc. Basically, I would expect an adult to work the problem. 

The advice wasn't about what class to take first. It was essentially "don't enroll your child in any classes." She didn't ask should her kid do dual enrollment or what are the pros and cons of dual enrollment. She asked which class would work best as a first class. If I started a thread to ask which recipe for spaghetti sauce was best, I don't really need to be told all the reasons I shouldn't eat spaghetti sauce. I call that rude. Not all threads need someone's response.

[gonejustcouldntdelete]

19 hours ago, Farrar said:

Since so many people have said the writing course over and over, I'll say again, I would not subject a kid who hates writing to a college writing course for his first class. And what's hard for one person to teach is easy for another. I couldn't teach SolidWorks or html. I can absolutely teach writing.

Most people are recommending against one single course, just as you yourself did. As I said in my original post, I think Descriptive Astronomy would be the best option, potentially followed by Psych. She can take that advice or leave it.

When somebody gives advice based on experiences or asking people who would know (ie college-aged students), though, and all they get is frustrated arguing about why they're wrong/it's unfair, well, it makes people like me wonder what exactly she wanted to hear.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion because it's clearly going nowhere good. 

[Wheres Toto]

I think you need to look at what your child is comfortable with and would feel successful at, and not worry at all about the opinions of the other students.  Around here CC classes will have younger DE students, early graduated students, typical students (what is typical? but I guess this would be the students attending for 2 years just after high school), and adults anywhere from their 20's to their 60's.   I don't think the other students are going to pay that much attention to the fact that there is a student who LOOKS younger in a given class (maybe if he looks like he's 9 they might).  

Definitely check out teachers and word of mouth recommendations, and then pick the class that he is the most interested in.  

My son (has autism, SPD, gifted, and has never been in a traditional classroom except a couple summers at a GT camp) has been attending our local CC since he was 15.   I doubt most of the other students or the teachers even realized he was 15.    He doesn't look a lot older, but he doesn't look atypically young either.   We didn't do dual enrollment because of the way it's handled around here, and just went right ahead and graduated him from high school and enrolled him in college.   He has taken English, classes for his major (Game Design), and is currently taking Psych 101.   He hasn't run into any content that was concerning in any way, has had no problem with students treating him any differently than they do any other student, and certainly hasn't been the only student not driving himself to class.   

He has done group projects but since many of the students have jobs, families, and other commitments, they meet at times they can all make it or coordinate over Discord.    

Since CC is "typically" done in the 2 years post high school, I wouldn't expect students to meet at bars since it wouldn't be that unusual to have students who couldn't drink yet.  

[boringandunhelpful]

It's still a bit wild to me to consider kids taking courses at a college; my school district offered all accepted dual enrollment courses "in-house." We had classes at school, so everyone was either a junior or senior, avoiding the age concern. It was a great setup, but I don't think it would meet the scaffolding needs of your son even if it was an option. Starting classes in person and actually on campus does sound better for him, and, since your district offers dual enrollment courses at that age, then hopefully there will be resources available to assist his transition, and the students and professors will used to accommodating a younger student.

I wouldn't put him in English at this point. Having his first college course be a class of which he isn't fond will start his college experience off on the wrong foot. The topics covered in composition are not typically appropriate for younger high schoolers, and I imagine it's worse in an on-campus course. To help him, maybe try assigning a certain number of papers, but let him choose the topics. In a year or so, he should be able to take composition at the college. 

I also wouldn't put him in Spanish if the environment makes him uncomfortable. It simply seems unwise to have him take his first college course in a place where he would already be on edge.

General Psychology is really hit or miss. My personal experience was boring and light; my best friend in high school took the same course the next semester, and she cried because of the homework.

Either programming course or the astronomy course seem like your best bets. I would favor SolidWorks or astronomy because, from your description, they are where his interests are. Maybe print the syllabus for each course and let him see which one sparks his interest.

 

As an added suggestion, my local CC's World Religions course is fairly light, but it has a stronger writing component. The professor requires a five-paragraph essay in MLA format nearly each week. It might be worth looking into at your own CC - or even just poking around and seeing if there are any other content courses your son might like more if his dislike of writing becomes an issue. 

[wendyroo]

2 hours ago, Drusilla said:

It's still a bit wild to me to consider kids taking courses at a college; my school district offered all accepted dual enrollment courses "in-house." We had classes at school, so everyone was either a junior or senior, avoiding the age concern. It was a great setup, but I don't think it would meet the scaffolding needs of your son even if it was an option. Starting classes in person and actually on campus does sound better for him, and, since your district offers dual enrollment courses at that age, then hopefully there will be resources available to assist his transition, and the students and professors will used to accommodating a younger student.

"Our" district (which isn't our local district, but rather a school of choice quite a ways away), is itty bitty out in the boonies. They don't even always offer a calculus class in their brick and mortar high school every year. The only language they offer is Spanish, and only up to Spanish 4.

There is no way they would have enough students to offer dual enrollment classes in their high school.

For us, the only reason to participate in the district at all is so they will pay for "elective classes" with the money going to "community partners" (rock climbing gyms, piano teachers, Spanish immersion classes, nature classes, pretty much any business or individual offering PE, music, art, STEM or language classes) of our choice. This year Peter took his core classes (virtually) through the district in order to qualify for more electives, and to validate his transcript a bit with a smattering of high grades in honors public school courses. But the courses were so torturously boring, that next year I will be homeschooling the core classes again...except for any he takes through DE.

Michigan mandates that districts must pay for up to ten dual enrollment classes per student (to be paid to any college or university in Michigan), but that is the extent of the district's involvement. Students and parents find a college that accepts dual enrollment students, go through their application process, and get the paperwork sent to the high school. There are some colleges that require dual enrollment students be in 11th or 12th grade, but since Michigan encourages spreading the ten dual enrollment courses out through the four years, then many colleges accept any high schoolers. And all the ones we have talked to allow dual enrollment students to take almost any course that they have the pre-recs for (typically only disallowing study abroad courses and the like).

[Dmmetler]

I had L start with a math teaching class. The content was easy, but it was a good "how to college" class-and a good "stating the obvious" class as well. It was an important set of skills for a gifted (then) 12 yr old. 

 

L did a bunch of psych classes, and they were fine, but couldn't do the honors psych because it included trips to facilities and privacy regs limited people under 18. 

 

The English Comp I  at the local CC was so good when S did it that I made L take it despite placing out, because a big focus was on writing essays and cover letters for scholarships-very, very helpful for a high school student, or for a college student planning to transfer to a school which costs a lot more. 

 

I'd recommend against a 3000 level Spanish class as a first DE, because that's going to be a class taken mostly by majors at that point. Once he's adjusted to college, sure, but maybe not on day 1. 

 

I really didn't see any content, in four years of CC classes, that wasn't appropriate. Some were emotionally hard (Race, Class ans Gender Studies, which L considers the single best course taken DE), Black history, and African-American literature were all tough classes emotionally, but I don't think that was an age thing as opposed to a "Man's Inhumanity to Man" thing. The only problem with group projects during DE was L ending up doing them all because the rest of the group flaked out.

 

Check the math skills for astronomy. It may expect more than pre-calculus, depending on the level of class. 

 

 

Not on your list, but I suggest parents check music appreciation or music history carefully for younger kids. Sex, drugs and music that pushes social mores are not recent inventions, and non-majors courses, especially, tend to lean in that direction a bit to keep college kids engaged. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Dmmetler

[Malam]

Does anyone have personal experience with mature content material in an intro to composition course? Me personally, I only have experience helping with a remedial English (super safe, possibly to the point of blandness) and an Honors "city as text" class that counted as a freshman writing class, where the worst was discussing the working conditions of textile workers in the 19th century. Secondhand, I know one dual enrollment student who said there wasn't anything in their intro comp course, but there was in later English courses

Edited March 17, 2023 by Malam

[boringandunhelpful]

16 hours ago, Malam said:

Does anyone have personal experience with mature content material in an intro to composition course? Me personally, I only have experience helping with a remedial English (super safe, possibly to the point of blandness) and an Honors "city as text" class that counted as a freshman writing class, where the worst was discussing the working conditions of textile workers in the 19th century. Secondhand, I know one dual enrollment student who said there wasn't anything in their intro comp course, but there was in later English courses

I do. My composition course at school covered a lot of things like what counts as rape, whether or not teens who get pregnant or get someone pregnant should be forcibly sterilized (when there were two teen moms and one pregnant teen in the class), and human trafficking.

My dh is from a different state entirely. He had to write about whether or not the specific crimes of pedophiles should earn them the death penalty (providing examples in the essay) and about if genocide is morally wrong if the people/culture being wiped out can be argued to be morally wrong (i.e. genital mutilation, still owning slaves, etc., again, providing specific real-life examples). My dh was 17 when he took the class, and he still gets nightmares from the research for those two papers. 

It really depends on what the parents personally think is inappropriate or mature but also what the student can handle. My dh's parents were fine with the content, but it has had a lasting and negative impact on him. My grandparents and I were uncomfortable with the content at the time, but I never gave it much thought after turning in the papers. 

[boringandunhelpful]

On 3/15/2023 at 8:50 PM, wendyroo said:

"Our" district (which isn't our local district, but rather a school of choice quite a ways away), is itty bitty out in the boonies. They don't even always offer a calculus class in their brick and mortar high school every year. The only language they offer is Spanish, and only up to Spanish 4.

There is no way they would have enough students to offer dual enrollment classes in their high school.

For us, the only reason to participate in the district at all is so they will pay for "elective classes" with the money going to "community partners" (rock climbing gyms, piano teachers, Spanish immersion classes, nature classes, pretty much any business or individual offering PE, music, art, STEM or language classes) of our choice. This year Peter took his core classes (virtually) through the district in order to qualify for more electives, and to validate his transcript a bit with a smattering of high grades in honors public school courses. But the courses were so torturously boring, that next year I will be homeschooling the core classes again...except for any he takes through DE.

Michigan mandates that districts must pay for up to ten dual enrollment classes per student (to be paid to any college or university in Michigan), but that is the extent of the district's involvement. Students and parents find a college that accepts dual enrollment students, go through their application process, and get the paperwork sent to the high school. There are some colleges that require dual enrollment students be in 11th or 12th grade, but since Michigan encourages spreading the ten dual enrollment courses out through the four years, then many colleges accept any high schoolers. And all the ones we have talked to allow dual enrollment students to take almost any course that they have the pre-recs for (typically only disallowing study abroad courses and the like).

That's interesting. My district is small too. We had to "pump in" Spanish (our only foreign language) from a different high school in the county.  Anyone wanting a class about Spanish 3 (which was really Spanish 2.5 - we were on a block/semester schedule, so Spanish 1 and 2 just covered the Spanish 1 book) had to do so online. Actually, most advanced classes were "pumped in;" my precalculus class only had four students in my high school Now, they bus the students to the trade school for all advanced classes. 

[Terabith]

On 3/17/2023 at 5:46 PM, Malam said:

Does anyone have personal experience with mature content material in an intro to composition course? Me personally, I only have experience helping with a remedial English (super safe, possibly to the point of blandness) and an Honors "city as text" class that counted as a freshman writing class, where the worst was discussing the working conditions of textile workers in the 19th century. Secondhand, I know one dual enrollment student who said there wasn't anything in their intro comp course, but there was in later English courses

My oldest took intro to composition at a community college as a tenth grader, when we pivoted and pulled them out of public school due to mental health issues.  They were 16 by the second semester, which is when they enrolled in community college.  Honestly, by sheer dumb luck, it was a WONDERFUL class, easily the best English class they took in their high school years.  There were definitely a number of discussions about human sexuality and such, which was absolutely fine with us, and it wasn't an issue.  They were 16 and honestly looked physically like a traditional college student, but I could see some families being uncomfortable with that.  They watched The Matrix and did a whole project on it as part of the class (contrasting it with Plato's Allegory of the Cave), and it's a rated R movie, but again, was not anything we were uncomfortable with.  Interestingly, they were the only student the professor had taught in ten years who walked in knowing who Biblical Nebuchadnezzar was.  They won a candy bar for that.  

I think something you need to consider, possibly even more than group projects and whether or not there will be mature content, is the fact that college courses pretty much assume and require the student has free access to the internet.  Pretty much everything is turned in online.  I know that's a sensitive topic for your kid, and I think that's going to be a very tricky thing navigating college courses.  

[catz]

Both my kids took comp 101 their first semesters of dual enrolling.  I will say my son was at an inner city CC with 60 percent pell receipts, lots of english language learners, high minority population.  And stuff they wrote and shared about in class tended to be mature content.  It was absolutely fine for my kid.  But it may not just be class content, but a flexible teacher allowing students to write and share about their own interest areas and what will come out of that in a group that is primarily 18+.  The discussions sounded very nuanced on some topics.  My daughter's class ad some of that too, not quite to the extent of my oldest's class.

It was a very postitive experience for both my kids but we can't dual enroll here until the 11th grade (and it's free so that's why they are strict on their limits).  I actually LOVED my older kid's urban CC experience (for various reasons we couldn't use that CC with my younger, but we were very happy with the classes).  If you are concerned about mature content, I'd stick to STEM classes.  

Edited March 20, 2023 by catz

[JustAMom]

I apologize for this somewhat off-topic post. I signed up just to ask the following, perhaps silly, question:

 

Wendyroo,

You mention your son has public school credits. How did he obtain these? I am currently researching dual public school enrollment/equal access states, as I am trying to figure out where my family will be moving. I'm new to homeschooling and looking into states that would allow my children to attend some selective courses, if the need arose. Is it through one of these programs that he gained access? I saw your location as Michigan, where I have a lot of family (it's one of my top moving options), but as far as I know they don't have access laws favorable to homeschoolers?

 

 

 

Again, sorry for such an off topic and perhaps strange question. Thank you in advance if you do respond.