How to communicate opinions effectively

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

Amen! 

I will add my amen 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

According to the moderators, there is no hierarchy here that gives some posters more or less right than others, to be annoying. (Ya know, within board rules and triggering that sinking feeling in the stomach of the mods as they think they see a train wreck coming.)

I cannot think of anyone here who I would say communicates unsuccessfully, but this is also a rather diverse community that is affected by the trends of the wider world. We have people aged across several decades, we have people from a collection of countries, diversity of and within religion, across the political spectrum, different neurotypes, different family sizes, different costs of living, educational styles, educational priorities,  different sexualities and who even knows what other subgroups we have, line dryers v electrical driers? People who do v don't put their shopping trolleys away? With all that variation, what does successful and unsuccessful communication even mean? Agreement? I'm sure we would all laugh at that, since unanimous threads are rare enough that someone always points it out. No hurt feelings? We can't even talk to our nearest and dearest without hurt feelings sometimes.

We are a community of people trying to raise our kids to get out and have a reasonably decent life, knowing there are some things we can do do help that along, and knowing there are some things that are just plain out of our control. We are a community of people who are glad when things go well for each other and each other's families, and think it is commiseratingly sucky when things don't. We are a community of people who are generous with our experiences, to make things that little bit easier for those who need to know the things we found out earlier. No individual has experienced everything, but between us, we know what it is like to half crazed from sleep deprivation, to be estranged from family, to have lost someone important, to want to punch a boss in the face, to wish we could sleep through the holidays, to regret that it really isn't okay to feed our kids nothing but peanut butter toast forever, to know with absolute certainty that we did teach our kid such and such so why are they telling the neighbour/their grandma/the librarian/ the cashier that they've never heard of maths before and they don't know how to spell their own name? We know what it is like to have been there and done that, and we know how it feels to say "Woah, that is so far outside of my experience I don't even know what to say other than ((hugs)), so ((hugs))."

Probably, if someone on here is annoying us, they're sleep deprived, hormonal, have chronic pain, a deadline due, two kids who are supposed to be at opposite ends of town at the same time, are really really enthusiastic about the topic for some reason and will probably feel better tomorrow or next week, and hopefully not any later than that because, for goodness sakes, can't a body catch a break?

Unless SWB says otherwise, each one of us is allowed to be here.

Beautifully said, Rosie! 

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, barnwife said:

This is mind-blowing to me. Sometimes a thread has more than one thing going on at a time so someone might quote a specific (part of a) response to make it clear where their thoughts are spinning off of. A thread isn't just between 2 people, you know? So the person who quoted someone else certainly might not be expecting a response from that specific poster. Or maybe they just want to offer an opposite POV, but feel one post doing so is enough. It certainly is acceptable in group conversations to riff off of one person's comments/thoughts to the group at large.

Exactly. To me, a thread with multiple posters is like a bunch of people sitting around a table having a group discussion, which meanders around following different trains of thought as different people introduce and respond to different topics. Most of the time when someone quotes another poster, unless they're specifically addressing that poster (asking or answering a question, offering advice, etc.), I assume the quote is just a jumping off point to continue the discussion on that topic. That's generally how I use it, and since I'm "speaking" to a group of people that are sitting around a virtual table, not just having a one-on-one conversation, I don't expect a specific response from the person I quoted. When someone quotes me, unless they're asking a question or seem to be expecting a response, I usually just like the post as an acknowledgment that I read it.

[And this post is actually an example of what I'm talking about — I quoted barnwife because I agree with what she said and wanted to expand on it, but it's not specifically addressed to her and a response is not necessary.]

[Laura Corin]

4 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

@SKLbeat me to it.  I tend to post as 'I've found that' or 'I had good luck with' or 'Have you tried' responses, and that's what I'd prefer to receive if I ask a question.  Because, in the end, I really don't know what you might want do, but I can tell you what I've seen work for people in my circles.  I always have in my head that somebody else's reality may be very different than my own, with such a different starting point that I can't imagine what their thought process is.  It feels a little presumptuous to think that I understand somebody's life well enough to know what they should do, or that I've found the One True Way to do something.  If asked the same question 5 years ago, or 5 years from now, I might suggest something different, and it's entirely possible that your 'right now' looks like my own '5 years ago' or '5 years from now'.  

Also, when people ask questions like 'Why do people think/say/do X?', it's probably best if they don't assume that every answer reflects the personal opinion of the poster and then try to convince them that they are wrong.  I have people in my life who make different choices than I do, and I can explain why they do even if it's not what I would do.  I'm sometimes perplexed by how those threads go - like, does the poster really want to know, or was the post so that they could tell people that they are wrong? 

But, I wonder if part of it is that people make different assumptions about disagreements.  I assume that disagreement can stem from different knowledge/life experiences, which might be affected through debate/discussion, I suppose, or different priorities, which just 'is', and there isn't much to debate.  If somebody says that they don't teach X because it won't be used, then people can debate whether it ever is used.  If people say that they don't teach X because time is better spent on something else, there's not much to debate - how would somebody else be able to advise on what the best use of your time is?  I have no way of knowing what is at play, so I offer my possible insight and then move one, assuming that it'll be used if useful and ignored if not. 

Agreeing with all of this. I tend to respond to questions with, 'You might like to...' 

I had a school report when I was eleven that essentially said that I  came across as an arrogant cow. Learning that was salutary.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Laura Corin

[Guest]

I love your post, Rosie. It’s a beautiful summary of why I (still) love being here many years later and several past homeschooling. 

[Carrie12345]

I’ve honestly only skimmed responses to get a gist of where it went, but I’m reaching back to the original example, because it felt so extreme (to me.)

Some opinions needn’t be shared.   
I’ve never felt the need to politely tell someone I thought they were a jerk. Unless you count my muttering in my car while driving amongst jerks, lol. I just remove myself from jerks.

If someone is ACTING like a jerk, doing or saying a jerky thing, I might share my opinion that “That seemed kind of harsh, don’t you think?” or something along those lines. If it’s someone I’m close to, I might be more prone to tell them they’re acting like a jerk, ask them why their acting like a jerk, or tell them to quit acting like a jerk. The idea of saying they ARE a jerk hits something deep inside and I wouldn’t dream of doing it “politely” or otherwise.

But when faced with an actual jerk, sharing my time and opinion is entirely unnecessary. What would be the intention?

[Soror]

6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Agreeing with all of this. I tend to respond to questions with, 'You might like to...' 

I had a school report when I was eleven that essentially said that I  came across as an arrogant cow. Learning that was salutary.

You are certainly anything but that now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I think effectively communicating requires--

listening, humility, and letting things go

Too often we go into conversations not with the desire to hear another person but strictly with the goal of getting our point across. We're just waiting our turn to say what we want paying little attention to what the other person is saying. 

So to me step 1 is to actually listen.

Next - practice a lot of humility.  There are plenty of people who know more than me. Other people have vastly different experiences in life. What I need/want are different than what other people need/want. 

Lastly, in the end I have to just let it go. I cannot control other people. Most people are looking for either encouragement and info. People rarely need admonishment.If people can't/won't/don't hear what I have to say repeating it over and over isn't likely to change that. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe they need something else. Maybe 100 other things. And so what people on the internet disagree with me. None of us fully knows what another is going through.

Quite often online I will say my piece and just leave a thread, if I even get involved in the first place.

Time reveals so much. Sometimes thoughts and opinions I strongly held end up vastly changed. More often I find that there is a lot of gray in this world and universal truths are rare.  And... we all screw up despite many best laid plans.

I used to be one with lots of strongly held opinions and thought I knew better than a lot of people. But my prayers for humility were answered and I realized there is always more I don't know than I do. After seeing things I thought were for sure true end up being wrong I learned to sit back and wait more. 

I've still got lots of room to grow but we're all works in progress.  

(edited for clarity-- written communication is not my strong suit-- too much speed reading and impatience)

Edited December 18, 2022 by Soror

[regentrude]

13 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I didn't realize this either, and it still confuses me, to be honest.

IRL, I wouldn't walk up to someone, quote something they had said, and then say my own thing in response, and then walk away expecting the other person to say nothing. Like, why would anyone do that? It's odd. I don't understand why people use the quote function if they are not entering a conversation with the quoted person.

1. I sometimes use the quote function as a direct response in dialog with a specific person. 

2. However,  I also use it when I am adding to a specific statement and taking a person's point further. "Melissa said this thing, and I have additional thought on this topic".

3. Or if a conversation has branched off in different directions, quoting means " let me add a thought on this particular facet of our conversation".

Neither 2 or 3 require a response from the quoted person; it is clear from the context that I am not asking them a question or arguing with them. I find it very helpful when folks make it clear what exactly they're responding to, since the linear view of the posts does not give this info ( not sure if the forum can be viewed in  tree structure where responses appear threaded under the respective post)

[Pawz4me]

54 minutes ago, Soror said:

 

Quite often online I will say my piece and just leave a thread, if I even get involved in the first place.

 

I remember several years ago someone (I don't remember who; may not even be here now) expressed surprise that someone would leave a comment on a thread and then not revisit the thread again. That surprised me, as it's something I do fairly often. 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

I remember several years ago someone (I don't remember who; may not even be here now) expressed surprise that someone would leave a comment on a thread and then not revisit the thread again. That surprised me, as it's something I do fairly often. 

Oh, wow!  
(Quoting to specify what my reaction is to.)

If I had to stay “in” every thread I’ve ever commented on, I’d have to quit eating, sleeping, and homeschooling, lol. 

[Scarlett]

11 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

According to the moderators, there is no hierarchy here that gives some posters more or less right than others, to be annoying. (Ya know, within board rules and triggering that sinking feeling in the stomach of the mods as they think they see a train wreck coming.)

 

I cannot think of anyone here who I would say communicates unsuccessfully, but this is also a rather diverse community that is affected by the trends of the wider world. We have people aged across several decades, we have people from a collection of countries, diversity of and within religion, across the political spectrum, different neurotypes, different family sizes, different costs of living, educational styles, educational priorities,  different sexualities and who even knows what other subgroups we have, line dryers v electrical driers? People who do v don't put their shopping trolleys away? With all that variation, what does successful and unsuccessful communication even mean? Agreement? I'm sure we would all laugh at that, since unanimous threads are rare enough that someone always points it out. No hurt feelings? We can't even talk to our nearest and dearest without hurt feelings sometimes.

We are a community of people trying to raise our kids to get out and have a reasonably decent life, knowing there are some things we can do do help that along, and knowing there are some things that are just plain out of our control. We are a community of people who are glad when things go well for each other and each other's families, and think it is commiseratingly sucky when things don't. We are a community of people who are generous with our experiences, to make things that little bit easier for those who need to know the things we found out earlier. No individual has experienced everything, but between us, we know what it is like to half crazed from sleep deprivation, to be estranged from family, to have lost someone important, to want to punch a boss in the face, to wish we could sleep through the holidays, to regret that it really isn't okay to feed our kids nothing but peanut butter toast forever, to know with absolute certainty that we did teach our kid such and such so why are they telling the neighbour/their grandma/the librarian/ the cashier that they've never heard of maths before and they don't know how to spell their own name? We know what it is like to have been there and done that, and we know how it feels to say "Woah, that is so far outside of my experience I don't even know what to say other than ((hugs)), so ((hugs))."

Probably, if someone on here is annoying us, they're sleep deprived, hormonal, have chronic pain, a deadline due, two kids who are supposed to be at opposite ends of town at the same time, are really really enthusiastic about the topic for some reason and will probably feel better tomorrow or next week, and hopefully not any later than that because, for goodness sakes, can't a body catch a break?

 

Unless SWB says otherwise, each one of us is allowed to be here.

What a beautiful post. ❤️❤️

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

I remember several years ago someone (I don't remember who; may not even be here now) expressed surprise that someone would leave a comment on a thread and then not revisit the thread again. That surprised me, as it's something I do fairly often. 

I’m surprised if someone starts a thread and then obviously never comes back to it. Often this is someone totally new and their post has no details about kids ages etc and when well meaning people want clarification so that they can actually give decent advice, the OP is no where to be found. But then I wonder if those threads were started by bots or something. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’ve honestly only skimmed responses to get a gist of where it went, but I’m reaching back to the original example, because it felt so extreme (to me.)

Some opinions needn’t be shared.   
I’ve never felt the need to politely tell someone I thought they were a jerk. Unless you count my muttering in my car while driving amongst jerks, lol. I just remove myself from jerks.

If someone is ACTING like a jerk, doing or saying a jerky thing, I might share my opinion that “That seemed kind of harsh, don’t you think?” or something along those lines. If it’s someone I’m close to, I might be more prone to tell them they’re acting like a jerk, ask them why their acting like a jerk, or tell them to quit acting like a jerk. The idea of saying they ARE a jerk hits something deep inside and I wouldn’t dream of doing it “politely” or otherwise.

But when faced with an actual jerk, sharing my time and opinion is entirely unnecessary. What would be the intention?

The example was from a thread where the OP specifically said “I am having trouble communicating. Am I a jerk?  I really want to know “. (Hugely paraphrasing here. ). People were trying to thread the needle of honesty without hurting feelings too much. It obviously didn’t work. (NOT trying to rehash the thread because the OP asked us not to but sometimes only skimming and not knowing context does hurt your ability to reply to the actual situation. ). 

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The example was from a thread where the OP specifically said “I am having trouble communicating. Am I a jerk?  I really want to know “. (Hugely paraphrasing here. ). People were trying to thread the needle of honesty without hurting feelings too much. It obviously didn’t work. (NOT trying to rehash the thread because the OP asked us not to but sometimes only skimming and not knowing context does hurt your ability to reply to the actual situation. ). 

Ahhh!
See, I didn’t really go back to the thread after it had drifted away from what I had believed to be the original intent.
And that’s okay, too! When I make a post, or even some comments, I don’t expect that each person reading has read everything I’ve ever written. So I try to include pertinent details without sounding OVERLY repetitive to people who already know.

Anyway, if someone were to ask me if they were a jerk, I’d hope I already knew the context in which they were asking and, like I said, give my thoughts on the action, not the person.  “Well, I don’t think it’s very kind to eat babies, so maybe that’s influencing people’s perceptions of you.”

[Harriet Vane]

14 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

According to the moderators, there is no hierarchy here that gives some posters more or less right than others, to be annoying. (Ya know, within board rules and triggering that sinking feeling in the stomach of the mods as they think they see a train wreck coming.)

 

I cannot think of anyone here who I would say communicates unsuccessfully, but this is also a rather diverse community that is affected by the trends of the wider world. We have people aged across several decades, we have people from a collection of countries, diversity of and within religion, across the political spectrum, different neurotypes, different family sizes, different costs of living, educational styles, educational priorities,  different sexualities and who even knows what other subgroups we have, line dryers v electrical driers? People who do v don't put their shopping trolleys away? With all that variation, what does successful and unsuccessful communication even mean? Agreement? I'm sure we would all laugh at that, since unanimous threads are rare enough that someone always points it out. No hurt feelings? We can't even talk to our nearest and dearest without hurt feelings sometimes.

We are a community of people trying to raise our kids to get out and have a reasonably decent life, knowing there are some things we can do do help that along, and knowing there are some things that are just plain out of our control. We are a community of people who are glad when things go well for each other and each other's families, and think it is commiseratingly sucky when things don't. We are a community of people who are generous with our experiences, to make things that little bit easier for those who need to know the things we found out earlier. No individual has experienced everything, but between us, we know what it is like to half crazed from sleep deprivation, to be estranged from family, to have lost someone important, to want to punch a boss in the face, to wish we could sleep through the holidays, to regret that it really isn't okay to feed our kids nothing but peanut butter toast forever, to know with absolute certainty that we did teach our kid such and such so why are they telling the neighbour/their grandma/the librarian/ the cashier that they've never heard of maths before and they don't know how to spell their own name? We know what it is like to have been there and done that, and we know how it feels to say "Woah, that is so far outside of my experience I don't even know what to say other than ((hugs)), so ((hugs))."

Probably, if someone on here is annoying us, they're sleep deprived, hormonal, have chronic pain, a deadline due, two kids who are supposed to be at opposite ends of town at the same time, are really really enthusiastic about the topic for some reason and will probably feel better tomorrow or next week, and hopefully not any later than that because, for goodness sakes, can't a body catch a break?

 

Unless SWB says otherwise, each one of us is allowed to be here.

Well said. 🥰

[Not_a_Number]

10 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The example was from a thread where the OP specifically said “I am having trouble communicating. Am I a jerk?  I really want to know “. (Hugely paraphrasing here. ). People were trying to thread the needle of honesty without hurting feelings too much. It obviously didn’t work. (NOT trying to rehash the thread because the OP asked us not to but sometimes only skimming and not knowing context does hurt your ability to reply to the actual situation. ). 
 

 

Not what I had in mind. I see that KIND of thing here all the time. 

I’ll come back and reply to other things tomorrow, since I need to ponder them.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

As an FYI for anyone who was kind enough to comment -- I'm still pondering, but it's also simply that I've had a long day and I don't trust myself to reply in a reasonable manner tonight. 

I'll try to come back to this tomorrow. Thank you for everyone's input. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Tap]

I try to really listen to people, especially if they are raising their voice. I try to minimize talking when someone is upset, because I assume they hear my words with similar intensity to what they are saying. I will voice an opinion, but if someone wants to argue, I try to delay my response a day or so, to allow them time to collect themselves before I respond much. I use more active listening skills, that adding to a topic, when someone is upset. I often won't respond if someone is agitated, until they actually ask me to. LOL Especially, my patients. It is interesting to me; how many people seem to want to pick a fight. And by not picking up the bait, it confuses them, and they are left asking for an opinion, instead of fighting against it. 

 

[kbutton]

11 hours ago, Tap said:

Especially, my patients. It is interesting to me; how many people seem to want to pick a fight. And by not picking up the bait, it confuses them, and they are left asking for an opinion, instead of fighting against it. 

I think this can come from having a bad experience with a prior person in the same position or from varied quality of experience or being told random untrue or unhelpful things by others who don't know what they are talking about. Healthcare/medication makes people extra vulnerable, and they have to really work up the backbone to try again (and sometimes overshoot the mark!).

Some people will never be happy with service though.

[Sad to say, we've had almost zero pharmacy issues since one of the pharmacists realized DH is a provider who escribes in an area where most do not, and the pharmacists love him for it. He no longer works locally, so I worry that this will wear off, and we'll be back to being nobodies again. Prior to their epiphany, we sometimes had 8 hour rounds of back and forth spread over 2-3 days EVERY month to get the same meds filled (they waited and waited because they didn't want to do the extra step of verifying us in the controlled substances database, and because of that wouldn't give us accurate pickup times, ever). It was insane, and because there is only a 2 or 3 day window where you can overlap the prescriptions, it ruled our life for 2-3 days per month.]

[Hannah]

On 12/18/2022 at 6:11 AM, Rosie_0801 said:

According to the moderators, there is no hierarchy here that gives some posters more or less right than others, to be annoying. (Ya know, within board rules and triggering that sinking feeling in the stomach of the mods as they think they see a train wreck coming.)

 

I cannot think of anyone here who I would say communicates unsuccessfully, but this is also a rather diverse community that is affected by the trends of the wider world. We have people aged across several decades, we have people from a collection of countries, diversity of and within religion, across the political spectrum, different neurotypes, different family sizes, different costs of living, educational styles, educational priorities,  different sexualities and who even knows what other subgroups we have, line dryers v electrical driers? People who do v don't put their shopping trolleys away? With all that variation, what does successful and unsuccessful communication even mean? Agreement? I'm sure we would all laugh at that, since unanimous threads are rare enough that someone always points it out. No hurt feelings? We can't even talk to our nearest and dearest without hurt feelings sometimes.

We are a community of people trying to raise our kids to get out and have a reasonably decent life, knowing there are some things we can do do help that along, and knowing there are some things that are just plain out of our control. We are a community of people who are glad when things go well for each other and each other's families, and think it is commiseratingly sucky when things don't. We are a community of people who are generous with our experiences, to make things that little bit easier for those who need to know the things we found out earlier. No individual has experienced everything, but between us, we know what it is like to half crazed from sleep deprivation, to be estranged from family, to have lost someone important, to want to punch a boss in the face, to wish we could sleep through the holidays, to regret that it really isn't okay to feed our kids nothing but peanut butter toast forever, to know with absolute certainty that we did teach our kid such and such so why are they telling the neighbour/their grandma/the librarian/ the cashier that they've never heard of maths before and they don't know how to spell their own name? We know what it is like to have been there and done that, and we know how it feels to say "Woah, that is so far outside of my experience I don't even know what to say other than ((hugs)), so ((hugs))."

Probably, if someone on here is annoying us, they're sleep deprived, hormonal, have chronic pain, a deadline due, two kids who are supposed to be at opposite ends of town at the same time, are really really enthusiastic about the topic for some reason and will probably feel better tomorrow or next week, and hopefully not any later than that because, for goodness sakes, can't a body catch a break?

 

Unless SWB says otherwise, each one of us is allowed to be here.

Love this Rosie! ❤ 

[Not_a_Number]

Well, that took longer than expected. I've been having more personal turbulence/drama in my family, which... is not how I was visualizing spending these past few weeks, but that's how it goes. 

Anyway, thank you again for everyone's thoughts. 

About dialogue: there's a difference of opinions on here about what quoting someone and disagreeing with them means. The people who think it's an invitation to a one-on-one conversation are in the minority. I haven't thought about it much before these threads, but people utilize this construction differently. As a few of you said, it's a good idea to know your audience and remember who prefers what. I wish I found that easier online, without the usual audio/visual cues, but it's a helpful reminder. 

About "gently" and "I feel" constructions and other such "softening" things: I'm going to have to modify what I said. When those are used in the context of an overall desire to be respectful/humble, they work very well. I appreciate those variants of that construction. I don't like the ones that are tacked on to blatant insensitivity or rudeness. I've seen both on this forum. 

Thank you for the reminder to listen to what other people are saying. Maybe an even stronger thing to say would be to try to listen to what people are feeling, even if they aren't saying it. Words are used as shields just as often as they are used to openly communicate. Seeing the feelings... seeing the entire person... and seeing their pain... is almost a prerequisite to genuine communication. Otherwise, instead of communicating, you just wind up haranguing. At least, I do. I'm working on it. It's not an appealing trait.

And also, yes, there are lots of things that are worth saying once but not worth saying twice, and are DEFINITELY not worth saying 10 times. That's also something I struggle with. When I see I've triggered someone's defenses, I get anxious and start trying to "communicate" better when I should really just leave well enough alone. Either they'll consider my point of view later or they won't. Either I'll be able to say my piece later (in another thread, in another conversation), or I won't. But going on and on won't do anyone any good. Paradoxically, it's a particularly bad idea if I actually have a point . . . 

For me, the hardest thing to remember is that it doesn't MATTER if I'm right or wrong. I can't control other people. They need to make their own choices. And often, the reasons behind "bad" choices aren't trivial: not only can they be circumstances one doesn't understand, but there can be mental health/trauma/neurodiversity reasons that can't be fully appreciated via a online interaction.

Anyway, thank you again, everyone, for the food for thought. And a shoutout to @lewelma and @prairiewindmomma, who have communicated things to me in the past that I didn't want (but NEEDED) to hear in a way that worked for me. You both inspire me 🙂 . I'm trying to learn. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Not_a_Number