Foster care adoption questions

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

After many years of fertility treatments and subsequently pursuing adoption through the foster care system, my SIL and BIL got the phone call yesterday about a sibling pair that is legally free for adoption and the foster parents are not pursuing it. They are going to talk to the foster parents today and move forward from there.

So because I did supervised visitation as a side job for about a year last year before the program shut down, I actually know this pair of siblings(unique names). Attachment is going to be a concern with trying to inappropriately attach to anyone and everyone(for instance they’d do a craft with bioMom and instead of showing it to her would bring it to me, who they’d just met, for approval and admiration). I remember some articles that talked about encouraging kids to attach with their foster parents by not cuddling/holding/encouraging attachment behaviors with other people(like a cuddly aunt) for the first X months. I cannot find this now though despite googling.  Can anyone help? 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[SKL]

I also recall that advice, but I thought it was just part of the adoption training provided by the agency.  I don't know of a specific book or online resource specific to the advice you mention above.

The advice I got was to not let anyone give the baby any care at all for a good month.  In my case, the ages were 9mos/12mos, so nobody else was supposed to change the diapers, give bottles/food, hold the babies for more than a few seconds, bathe them, put the babies to bed or get them out of bed.

For older children, I would think this should go on much longer than a month.  Like maybe a year or longer.  The mom and dad are the only ones waking the kids and putting them to bed, providing all meals and snacks directly to them, helping them get dressed and bathe, letting them sit on their laps when other people are around, taking them places, helping with homework, etc.  Especially if the child is being a pill at the moment.  For example, kid is being a butt not wanting to sit in mom's lap, so auntie offers her lap or a spot next to her on her seat.  NO WAY.  The adoptive parents should advise all their family and friends not to do any of that.

There is also advice to treat them as if they were younger.  For example, things that a 4yo might be able to do for himself (dressing, bathing ...) can be done for him (by the parent) unless he's uncomfortable with that.

I would go for a very scaled-down Christmas [or other seasonal holiday] this year.  It's too much for many recent adoptees.

Edited December 1, 2022 by SKL

[plansrme]

I have a now-22 yo daughter from China, and I absolutely remember that that was the standard advice. The rationale was that attachment happens sequentially or something like that, so Mom first (usually), then Dad, and only once those attachments are secure should anyone promote an attachment to extended family. I read this book well after we were home and firmly attached (my adopted child is the most attached to me--whatever we did when she was a toddler worked GREAT) but thought it did a great job of explaining the whys and hows of attachment. One thing we did even while we were in China, based on lore handed out on Chinese adoptive parent email lists (remember those?) was to help her learn to look to US for comfort, and not anyone else, including herself. For example, when we first got her, she would scratch her head, not because it was itchy but for comfort, so I started doing that for her, just rubbing her head gently when I held her or when she was lying down. She would visibly relax (and I was thankful she wasn't a thumb sucker for comfort-she couldn't suck my thumb). Anyway--same would go for anything else that would be equated with care and comfort: parents feed, put to bed, etc., even at levels that are developmentally unnecessary. For instance, if the child is old enough to buckle her car seat or dress herself, the parents still buckle the car seat and zip the jackets as a way to form those bonds that would ordinarily have been formed when the children were younger.

ETA: I see SKL said the same thing I did about treating them as if they are younger. Didn't see that--didn't mean to repeat! 

Edited December 1, 2022 by plansrme

[Harriet Vane]

48 minutes ago, plansrme said:

I have a now-22 yo daughter from China, and I absolutely remember that that was the standard advice. The rationale was that attachment happens sequentially or something like that, so Mom first (usually), then Dad, and only once those attachments are secure should anyone promote an attachment to extended family. I read this book well after we were home and firmly attached (my adopted child is the most attached to me--whatever we did when she was a toddler worked GREAT) but thought it did a great job of explaining the whys and hows of attachment. One thing we did even while we were in China, based on lore handed out on Chinese adoptive parent email lists (remember those?) was to help her learn to look to US for comfort, and not anyone else, including herself. For example, when we first got her, she would scratch her head, not because it was itchy but for comfort, so I started doing that for her, just rubbing her head gently when I held her or when she was lying down. She would visibly relax (and I was thankful she wasn't a thumb sucker for comfort-she couldn't suck my thumb). Anyway--same would go for anything else that would be equated with care and comfort: parents feed, put to bed, etc., even at levels that are developmentally unnecessary. For instance, if the child is old enough to buckle her car seat or dress herself, the parents still buckle the car seat and zip the jackets as a way to form those bonds that would ordinarily have been formed when the children were younger.

ETA: I see SKL said the same thing I did about treating them as if they are younger. Didn't see that--didn't mean to repeat! 

A friend of mine who adopted from China did all the attachment things. They did not allow anyone else to hold their little one for quite some time, specifically because they were intentionally building the attachment. And their child IS attached--she's an adult and they're very tight as a family.

 

Along the same lines, different friends of mine have a child they fostered-to-adopt who they had almost from birth. Child might have been a few weeks old but was very tiny when they got this child. Over the years it emerged that the child has some mental health issues and behaviors common for those who had in-utero exposures (which was no surprise). As the child grew older, the child bonded to the mother and rejected all others in the family. It was obvious and ongoing and involved a lot of negative behaviors. They worked with a parenting coach who advised that the father in the family provide ALL the child needed. He made her breakfast, He bought her clothes. If there was an issue at school, he was the one who came. And so on. It actually worked. This teenager expanded their world to bond to the father, which was much, much easier and better for the family since both parents could parent and there was no more triangulating. (Or very little after that point.) Child is now a young adult and doing pretty well considering the challenges this person carries.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

These kids are 4 and 5, and while I am sure I know more about their background than the social worker will tell my SIL, the background is pretty serious abuse and neglect.  Since they are adopting through the county, there’s not really an adoption agency and I am sure there’s not a whole lot of information past the foster care training.  That’s why I am trying to find some articles or things to pass on, or that my SIL can give to family/church people to explain why they’re making the decisions they are as far as letting SIL and BIL do all the things for the kids.

The kids already have some mental health diagnoses, and I am 100% more will creep up. 
I don’t know if they’ll have the kids by Christmas; they’re starting with meet and greet and weekend visits. We already have fairly low key Christmases because holidays and celebrations send my oldest child’s anxiety out of control, and it’s just better for everyone to keep it all low key. But that’s a definite consideration.

[Ottakee]

I would encourage them to advocate for the highest daily rate and adoption subsidy possible.   It is not about the money but likely the kids will have increased needs and expenses, esp as they get older 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Just now, Ottakee said:

I would encourage them to advocate for the highest daily rate and adoption subsidy possible.   It is not about the money but likely the kids will have increased needs and expenses, esp as they get older 

I have recommended this as well, because these are (a) going to be difficult kids to place and (b) I expect there will be continuing mental health, OT, speech and other therapies, and I know how much I pay out of pocket for those things. I do think all kids adopted out of foster care here are automatically on Medicaid.

[cintinative]

 

Parenting wise, there is a trauma-informed parenting method that might be helpful.  https://child.tcu.edu/about-us/tbri/#sthash.6quKIvoy.dpbs

This group uses trauma-informed parenting and does an annual conference. Our church hosts a simulcast. There might be one near you.  https://empoweredtoconnect.org/

https://empoweredtoconnect.org/training/

Both are highly recommended by my fostering/adoptive family friends.

 

I have seen this book recommended for understanding the effect of trauma on the body and mind:  https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748/ref=sr_1_1?gclid=Cj0KCQiAvqGcBhCJARIsAFQ5ke6t1QULM-RE0AOa-XVfC7m_ZxJHkMrB7J6hq1oa5MMrEJvaagcIobcaAoerEALw_wcB&hvadid=616991171471&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9015632&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12142689952155827324&hvtargid=kwd-6817364741&hydadcr=24634_13611738&keywords=the+body+keeps+score&qid=1669917404&sr=8-1

[SKL]

Thinking some more ... I seem to remember that there was a suggested letter to friends and family explaining why they should leave the caring to the adoptive parents for a while.  I asked on an adoption page to see if anyone can send me a link.  If so, I'll share it here.

Another suggestion for the parents are the books:  The Primal Wound and The Connected Child.

https://smile.amazon.com/Primal-Wound-Understanding-Adopted-Child/dp/0963648004/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1572206NQO667&keywords=the+primal+wound&qid=1669918421&sprefix=the+primal+wound%2Caps%2C296&sr=8-1

https://smile.amazon.com/Connected-Child-healing-adoptive-family/dp/0071475001/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+connected+child&qid=1669918351&sr=8-1

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

I would encourage them to advocate for the highest daily rate and adoption subsidy possible.   It is not about the money but likely the kids will have increased needs and expenses, esp as they get older 

THIS.

Get a lawyer. Everyone will tell them it's not really necessary blah-blah-blah, but it actually IS. They need ALL the medical and psych assessments possible and they need a lawyer who will insist on recognition of those factors in the form of MONEY. Also if it's documented they will have an easier time down the line accessing services. (I have friends who have had a terribly difficult time accessing services through the post-adoption arm of DCFS.)

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

These kids are 4 and 5, and while I am sure I know more about their background than the social worker will tell my SIL, the background is pretty serious abuse and neglect.  Since they are adopting through the county, there’s not really an adoption agency and I am sure there’s not a whole lot of information past the foster care training.  That’s why I am trying to find some articles or things to pass on, or that my SIL can give to family/church people to explain why they’re making the decisions they are as far as letting SIL and BIL do all the things for the kids.

The kids already have some mental health diagnoses, and I am 100% more will creep up. 
I don’t know if they’ll have the kids by Christmas; they’re starting with meet and greet and weekend visits. We already have fairly low key Christmases because holidays and celebrations send my oldest child’s anxiety out of control, and it’s just better for everyone to keep it all low key. But that’s a definite consideration.

Bless them. I don't have direct experience, but I know bits and pieces of some similar stories. It sounds like they are going in with eyes wide open or that you are helping them do so. Best wishes!

23 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

THIS.

Get a lawyer. Everyone will tell them it's not really necessary blah-blah-blah, but it actually IS. They need ALL the medical and psych assessments possible and they need a lawyer who will insist on recognition of those factors in the form of MONEY. Also if it's documented they will have an easier time down the line accessing services. (I have friends who have had a terribly difficult time accessing services through the post-adoption arm of DCFS.)

Given our experiences with just IEP meetings and deaf healthcare practitioners, lawyering up is a wonderful idea. We were very, very fortunate that important things happened at critical times so that our kids' IEPs went through without a lawyer (a district employee breaking the law--leverage; a specific therapist employed by the district staying in a meeting after she said her bit so that she could outvote the idiot employee that later broke the law with our other child's case). If we had to do it all over again, we'd start with one. 

Our experience with IEPs and with friends whose kids have tried/failed...the relevant experts will often fail to look for things that are wrong because it will mean more work, more money out the door, etc. If you don't find a problem, then the parents can't insist the problem gets fixed. If the law compels you to look, you simply use diagnostic tests that are less likely to turn up an issue (multiple choice vs. observation/open-ended questions on language assessments, for instance). There are so many ways to not do the job while doing the job.

Edited December 1, 2022 by kbutton
typo that made things unclear

[Katy]

They need to see the files.  They need to be fully informed on more than what you know before they make this choice.  I'm not saying they shouldn't choose to adopt anyway, but they and the kids have the right to the full information.

[SKL]

Here's one brief link.  I hope more, better ones will come soon.

https://www.emkpress.com/whygrandma.html

[Melissa in Australia]

We did this. We had a chart on the fridge with zones of attachment. We made it. It had circles and in each circle photos of peoples faces. In the middle were dh, myself and my 2 younger bio children whe were still living at home. They were the people who they could hug. Next circle out had faces of other relitives and who we would see often and talk to and could ask for help. Next circle out had neighbours, people we would see often not hug and not necassaraly invite in. The last circle out had pictures I cut out of the local paper, strangers who we might say hello to as we walked past. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa in Australia]

We also didn't have any other relatives hug or look after the boys. 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

They need to see the files.  They need to be fully informed on more than what you know before they make this choice.  I'm not saying they shouldn't choose to adopt anyway, but they and the kids have the right to the full information.

This. And frankly, some times the files lie. You'd be surprised how often key information is NOT written down because workers know there is zero chance of finding a placement if it is included. Sadly, this is how our country rolls because the people in charge do not want to fund the kind of support parents will need in order to have a hope of success parenting and bonding with severely traumatized children. A nation this wealthy and this is the situation....

Eyes wide open and well informed is the only way to make it work. My heart breaks for these two children. 😢

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

They have seen the files but are sure that things are missing. SIL was a special Ed teacher who specialized in emotional disturbance before switching to teaching private music lessons and so she has a good idea of what to ask for.  They also have an attorney. 

I am quite sure that these kids have not had the psychological testing or help that they need other than 30 minutes a week of play therapy provided by the county.  
The funny thing is I remember these two kids vividly from last year and knew they were heading for TPR, and though it looked like they were going to family members I did ask DH if we could pursue adopting them if it fell through. And then the program I worked for lost funding and so I lost track of these kids.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Ottakee]

Connecting with other foster/adopt families locally is also so helpful.   Those parents know the doctors to use/avoid, the good therapists, what resources are out there, support groups for parents and kids and on and on.

[PronghornD]

I don't have current resource recommendations, since my kid is twenty-one now and has been firmly attached for a decade or so. However, just a few tips. The family needs to plan seating arrangements so the kids can't latch onto someone else. So, if the family is out at a restaurant with friends, have the children sitting between the parents, not next to a friend. Also, when you are in church or other situations like that, put the children in the middle so they can't slide down the pew to join another family. I also suggest lots of holding hands and carrying. I would avoid the church nursery or other care situations if possible.

I second Melissa's suggestion about the circles of love. I made a diagram with my child and really emphasized the relative permanence of the inner circles compared to the outer circles. My child tended to sometimes latch onto a total stranger (e.g. the Cablevision repair guy, who hadn't even come in the house) and then have a mega meltdown upon parting. The circles provided a way to process things.

Online support groups were great for us. In those days there was an attach-china group that really taught me most of what I needed to know. I'd say start searching for a group now, if not yesterday.

[SKL]

A couple more results ... still not perfect but maybe helpful.

https://adoption.com/cocooning-should-i-try-it-with-my-adopted-child

https://creatingafamily.org/adoption-category/finding-balance-cocooning-newly-adopted-kids/

[Carrie12345]

16 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

That’s why I am trying to find some articles or things to pass on, or that my SIL can give to family/church people to explain why they’re making the decisions they are as far as letting SIL and BIL do all the things for the kids.

 

Opinion only, but many people are not going to “get it”, regardless. And I would also want to protect the kids’ privacy as much as possible.

I’m not familiar with any specific concise but thorough articles, but their are lots of trauma informed parenting books for loved ones willing to put in the effort. Otherwise, I’d lean toward sticking to “We are following their professional’s care plan”, whether or not that’s a completely accurate statement. Made in advance, firmly, and frequently.

[Faith-manor]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Opinion only, but many people are not going to “get it”, regardless. And I would also want to protect the kids’ privacy as much as possible.

I’m not familiar with any specific concise but thorough articles, but their are lots of trauma informed parenting books for loved ones willing to put in the effort. Otherwise, I’d lean toward sticking to “We are following their professional’s care plan”, whether or not that’s a completely accurate statement. Made in advance, firmly, and frequently.

This right here.

It is next to impossible to get others, and in my experience especially family and church others, to respect parents' wishes. 

[Emba]

13 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This right here.

It is next to impossible to get others, and in my experience especially family and church others, to respect parents' wishes. 

That’s what I was going to say. Our family members were usually good about it, but more casual acquaintances tended to give mouth service to “you’re the mom, so what you say goes” and then act like I was a psycho when I enforced boundaries we’d set up.  DD at around 4 y.o. was particularly bad about just sitting in anyone’s lap, total stranger or not.

[Katy]

I’ve had extended family members question a child’s specific meal and snack timing. I had to get a physician in the family to intervene.

[Momof4sweetkids]

The term you're talking about has been called "cocooning" in resources I've read. I will say as far as cocooning that it can be so hard. Fostering/adopting is already hard and then not allowing anyone else to help adds so much to that. We tried cocooning with our first foster daughter and realized that we really needed help from our close family and friends to be able to parent well. We found the Empowered to Connect conference and podcasts so helpful.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

42 minutes ago, Momof3sweetgirls said:

The term you're talking about has been called "cocooning" in resources I've read. I will say as far as cocooning that it can be so hard. Fostering/adopting is already hard and then not allowing anyone else to help adds so much to that. We tried cocooning with our first foster daughter and realized that we really needed help from our close family and friends to be able to parent well. We found the Empowered to Connect conference and podcasts so helpful.

I honestly don’t logistically know how complete cocooning would work for them, as my SIL can take some time off work, and my BIL has adoption parental leave through his company, but then they will need to go back.  These kids are in preschool and kindergarten, I think, as well. In any case they’re in PS. 

But their church is a huge part of their lives and these children will be the only grandchildren on BIL’s side, and SIL wants to really focus on appropriate bonding while still considering how much everyone will want to shower love on these kids.  And as I said, I’ve worked with the kids in the past and they’re very cute and cuddly kids—with some significant challenges.  Of course, the files SIL was given breezes over those challenges. That annoys me because it feels like a set up to fail.

[Emba]

We did not totally cocoon with ours like people are describing. We did let them hug family members, sit in family members’ laps, etc. And they bonded well with us, but their issues were minimal, as these things go.  And DD particularly bonded with my MIL and GMIL, which I don’t think was a bad thing. 

i do remember making lots of deliberate eye contact, and playing games involving/encouraging eye contact, etc.  I can’t remember what resources I used, mostly online, but maybe a book or two from the library.

[KrissiK]

58 minutes ago, Emba said:

We did not totally cocoon with ours like people are describing. We did let them hug family members, sit in family members’ laps, etc. And they bonded well with us, but their issues were minimal, as these things go.  And DD particularly bonded with my MIL and GMIL, which I don’t think was a bad thing. 

i do remember making lots of deliberate eye contact, and playing games involving/encouraging eye contact, etc.  I can’t remember what resources I used, mostly online, but maybe a book or two from the library.

We didn’t either. I was a SAHM, intentionally for bonding purposes, and we did homeschool most of the way up to help facilitate bonding. Four out of our five seem to be pretty attached and well-adjusted. The one who’s not is off the rails mentally ill.

[SKL]

Yeah the "cocooning" boundaries will need to be tailored to the family's needs and abilities.  I still think it's good to know the concept and the rationale behind it.

I think that because it will seem counterintuitive to well-meaning family members, it's worth discussing up front.  A specific child may or may not need a particular boundary, and that can be adjusted as appropriate.

A crude way of looking at it is that you want to avoid "mommy shopping."  Adoptive mom has a special place that nobody else has ... whether kid likes it or not.  (Kids will often challenge this incredibly hard.)

[East Coast Sue]

On 12/1/2022 at 1:03 PM, cintinative said:

 

Parenting wise, there is a trauma-informed parenting method that might be helpful.  https://child.tcu.edu/about-us/tbri/#sthash.6quKIvoy.dpbs

This group uses trauma-informed parenting and does an annual conference. Our church hosts a simulcast. There might be one near you.  https://empoweredtoconnect.org/

https://empoweredtoconnect.org/training/

Both are highly recommended by my fostering/adoptive family friends.

 

I have seen this book recommended for understanding the effect of trauma on the body and mind:  https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748/ref=sr_1_1?gclid=Cj0KCQiAvqGcBhCJARIsAFQ5ke6t1QULM-RE0AOa-XVfC7m_ZxJHkMrB7J6hq1oa5MMrEJvaagcIobcaAoerEALw_wcB&hvadid=616991171471&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9015632&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12142689952155827324&hvtargid=kwd-6817364741&hydadcr=24634_13611738&keywords=the+body+keeps+score&qid=1669917404&sr=8-1

I wholeheartedly recommend the book, The body keeps the score. I have my copy tabbed, highlighted, and nearby as a trusted reference. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I also feel like we are so enmeshed that I don’t know if that’s good or bad.  My SIL over the years has really stepped in to do a lot of the things I couldn’t—Two of my kids are really, really high needs, one with a mental illness and ASD and one that is probably headed rapidly towards an ADHD diagnosis. I have relied so much on my husband’s family for different things(even like this morning where she is taking my younger two to a Christmas celebration that they’d love to go to but my oldest would not be able to manage the sensory overload and DH is at work) to give my kids a normal childhood.  My kids see their grandparents and aunt and uncle at least every other day and spend a lot of time together. I’d love to pay this back in time, but I don’t know if this level of togetherness will hurt or help.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I also feel like we are so enmeshed that I don’t know if that’s good or bad.  My SIL over the years has really stepped in to do a lot of the things I couldn’t—Two of my kids are really, really high needs, one with a mental illness and ASD and one that is probably headed rapidly towards an ADHD diagnosis. I have relied so much on my husband’s family for different things(even like this morning where she is taking my younger two to a Christmas celebration that they’d love to go to but my oldest would not be able to manage the sensory overload and DH is at work) to give my kids a normal childhood.  My kids see their grandparents and aunt and uncle at least every other day and spend a lot of time together. I’d love to pay this back in time, but I don’t know if this level of togetherness will hurt or help.

What about beginning “togetherness “ on neutral territory, with mom? I’m theorizing out of my rear end right now, but it seems to me that having you around as much as reasonable with them depending on mom during that time might eventually make way for a more natural “We’re here with Aunty, who always defers to Mom, until Mom gets back” than trying to work out your dynamic out of context?

I don’t know if that reads like what I’m thinking or not! 

[PronghornD]

When my child acted overly friendly, there would often be an after-effect, like a day or two of dis-regulation and meltdowns. That might be something to look for as they try to strike the right balance with these kids. I would also think any family member that is heavily involved can verbally emphasize the love and care of the parents. Talk about how loving and trustworthy they are. Refer to them often, "Your mom asked me to....." Maybe even chat about families and family structures, e.g., "____ is my child and I love her and take care of her, just like your mom and dad love you and take care of you...."

Also, when a child is feeling insecure after a separation, they may act cold toward the parents. My kid would pretend they didn't notice their dad coming home from work. That might be a time to pour on the love. And the caregiver can make the return of the parent a big deal with cheering etc. to model the importance of the parents.

 

[KrissiK]

Another thing I would add, and this is from personal experience. I didn’t do any research on attachment for my kids, we just kind of “did it”. From my experience, attachment is a continuum, not some kind of either/or. I would say my kids are attached, but more or less securely.

In regards to my oldest son, and from what I’ve gathered, the type of diagnosis that he has would probably have grown out of a RAD diagnosis as a child,  but he never exhibited the “typical” RAD behaviors, so we never really went down that path. We always felt like things were “off” with him, but he didn’t do things “on the RAD checklist” so we didn’t really know what to do. As he got older we sought therapy with multiple different providers, but he was so good at what he did that we always ended up as the bad guy and never got any help.

[East Coast Sue]

1 hour ago, KrissiK said:

Another thing I would add, and this is from personal experience. I didn’t do any research on attachment for my kids, we just kind of “did it”. From my experience, attachment is a continuum, not some kind of either/or. I would say my kids are attached, but more or less securely.

In regards to my oldest son, and from what I’ve gathered, the type of diagnosis that he has would probably have grown out of a RAD diagnosis as a child,  but he never exhibited the “typical” RAD behaviors, so we never really went down that path. We always felt like things were “off” with him, but he didn’t do things “on the RAD checklist” so we didn’t really know what to do. As he got older we sought therapy with multiple different providers, but he was so good at what he did that we always ended up as the bad guy and never got any help.

I can relate. I encourage adoptive parents to seek therapy but be cautious about who provides input/guidance to your child. Some children can be very manipulative and may not be able to accurately discuss their behaviors, even when they try. The RAD diagnosis is a continuum and many therapists just don’t want to touch it. I can’t blame them but I really hate to see parents blamed for stuff they’re trying to get help for, ykwim? 

Edited December 3, 2022 by East Coast Sue
I can’t spell!

[Katy]

I don't know the research on this but.... My thought on extended family closeness is that from a historical perspective it was good. Kids having multiple safe, reliable, and trustworthy adults that love and support them is always a good thing, assuming the relationships aren't abusive. It used to take a village. And while the idea that parents should be the center is probably true, I question if they should be the only resource even for adopted kids.  Watching my littles (one adopted) navigate life after pandemic isolation and the lack of social skills, even when we tried very hard to interact with them and teach them every day... Maybe it's that they both have special needs and they would have had trouble anyway.  But idk... they've learned so much coming out of isolation I can't help but think isolation with just our family hasn't been good. I'm glad we did it because DD4 got really ill with covid even when she was fully & recently vaccinated, but it has definitely made things more difficult.

I guess my point is, just support them however they want and however you can.  I wouldn't worry about there not being enough cocooning.

[Momof4sweetkids]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I don't know the research on this but.... My thought on extended family closeness is that from a historical perspective it was good. Kids having multiple safe, reliable, and trustworthy adults that love and support them is always a good thing, assuming the relationships aren't abusive. It used to take a village. And while the idea that parents should be the center is probably true, I question if they should be the only resource even for adopted kids. , 

I guess my point is, just support them however they want and however you can.  I wouldn't worry about there not being enough cocooning.

Totally agree with this.

[Melissa in Australia]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I don't know the research on this but.... My thought on extended family closeness is that from a historical perspective it was good. Kids having multiple safe, reliable, and trustworthy adults that love and support them is always a good thing, assuming the relationships aren't abusive. It used to take a village. And while the idea that parents should be the center is probably true, I question if they should be the only resource even for adopted kids.  Watching my littles (one adopted) navigate life after pandemic isolation and the lack of social skills, even when we tried very hard to interact with them and teach them every day... Maybe it's that they both have special needs and they would have had trouble anyway.  But idk... they've learned so much coming out of isolation I can't help but think isolation with just our family hasn't been good. I'm glad we did it because DD4 got really ill with covid even when she was fully & recently vaccinated, but it has definitely made things more difficult.

I guess my point is, just support them however they want and however you can.  I wouldn't worry about there not being enough cocooning.

It isn't meant to be isolating the children forever form extended family, but rather at the beginning of the placement. So they latch onto and bond with  the parents.  

[Katy]

21 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

It isn't meant to be isolating the children forever form extended family, but rather at the beginning of the placement. So they latch onto and bond with  the parents.  

I understand the theory. I also understand it’s not possible to do so perfectly for many families. 

[hippymamato3]

How old are the children? My experience with older kids with RAD was very, very traumatic. 

[PronghornD]

On 12/4/2022 at 10:02 PM, Katy said:

I don't know the research on this but.... My thought on extended family closeness is that from a historical perspective it was good. Kids having multiple safe, reliable, and trustworthy adults that love and support them is always a good thing, assuming the relationships aren't abusive. It used to take a village. And while the idea that parents should be the center is probably true, I question if they should be the only resource even for adopted kids.  Watching my littles (one adopted) navigate life after pandemic isolation and the lack of social skills, even when we tried very hard to interact with them and teach them every day... Maybe it's that they both have special needs and they would have had trouble anyway.  But idk... they've learned so much coming out of isolation I can't help but think isolation with just our family hasn't been good. I'm glad we did it because DD4 got really ill with covid even when she was fully & recently vaccinated, but it has definitely made things more difficult.

I guess my point is, just support them however they want and however you can.  I wouldn't worry about there not being enough cocooning.

Usually kids who have experienced trauma need a smaller world while they heal. It isn't that they should never bond with other relatives but that multiple caregivers are too much for them to navigate while in a state of hypervigilance and trauma and in a state of not really trusting anyone at all. A smaller world and fewer choices helps them learn to bond and trust and relax the hypervigilance. Then, if they are doing well, you can gradually expand their world.

[PronghornD]

On 12/5/2022 at 12:03 AM, Katy said:

I understand the theory. I also understand it’s not possible to do so perfectly for many families. 

However, you can still apply the theory imperfectly. You can still limit the number of extended relatives involved in care. You cherry-pick a small number that can help rather than just treating the kid like they never experienced trauma and having the entire circle of family and friends engage in care.

[Katy]

1 minute ago, PronghornD said:

Usually kids who have experienced trauma need a smaller world while they heal. It isn't that they should never bond with other relatives but that multiple caregivers are too much for them to navigate while in a state of hypervigilance and trauma and in a state of not really trusting anyone at all. A smaller world and fewer choices helps them learn to bond and trust and relax the hypervigilance. Then, if they are doing well, you can gradually expand their world.

Again, I understand the theory. But I still think it’s better for kids to have permanency even if that initially smaller world has a few more adults in it. Sometimes best is the enemy of better.

[PronghornD]

Just now, Katy said:

Again, I understand the theory. But I still think it’s better for kids to have permanency even if that initially smaller world has a few more adults in it. Sometimes best is the enemy of better.

Perhaps the comment I just made addresses this?

 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

24 minutes ago, hippymamato3 said:

How old are the children? My experience with older kids with RAD was very, very traumatic. 

5 and 7.  Mom has never had custody of either. One was born in prison and one had drugs in their system at birth so there was never custody. They were with a family member and then a single foster mother since then.  The foster mother has had them for three years and doesn’t see many behaviors but also who knows.  When I was supervising visitation with bioMom they had behaviors with her But not with other family members or me.
DSS here is so terrible at everything though that things fall through the cracks(I say that with understanding but honestly, they’re so woefully understaffed that they’re awful).

Edited December 6, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again