Article about cheating - something that high schoolers and college students should know about

[Clemsondana]

 This is long, but I thought I'd share in case students aren't aware..  https://crumplab.com/articles/blog/post_994_5_26_22_cheating/index.html

A lot of kids don't consider what they are doing as cheating or realize the trouble that they can get in.  Talking with other long-term co-op and college instructors that I know, cheating has always been something that we've dealt with, but it started getting more common 5 or so years ago, and many found another jump during covid.  It's hard to gauge specifically since I have a smaller number of students compared to a college prof, but in recent years I've caught 1/4 of my students cheating in various ways, and that doesn't seem to be unusual.  

I think that tech availability makes it easy to cheat, and I also think that it's influencing students to think that there's no reason to learn anything since the information is available at their fingertips.  I put effort into explaining that, although you can look up anything, if you don't know information you don't even know what to look for.

  

[Roadrunner]

This is precisely why overwhelming majorly of CC students prefer online classes. 
 

Edited to add I specified CC because that’s the data given by ours after surveying students. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Roadrunner

[BusyMom5]

I shared with my college kids, and they both know it goes on, but (they say) they don't join in. 

@Roadrunner, its not CC- its all the basic level college courses.  Kids take them, cheat their way through,  then struggle with later classes bc they didn't learn the content.  My oldest said her entry-level business classes were the worst- she took CC classes here, and now is at a university.   The University is worse.   Many more kids, lots spoiled, rich, they buy exams and papers.  I don't think its fair to say its happening more at one place or another- the fact is that its happening both places.  

[Roadrunner]

7 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

I shared with my college kids, and they both know it goes on, but (they say) they don't join in. 

@Roadrunner, its not CC- its all the basic level college courses.  Kids take them, cheat their way through,  then struggle with later classes bc they didn't learn the content.  My oldest said her entry-level business classes were the worst- she took CC classes here, and now is at a university.   The University is worse.   Many more kids, lots spoiled, rich, they buy exams and papers.  I don't think its fair to say its happening more at one place or  another- the fact is that its happening both places.  

I didn’t say it’s happening in some places more than others. I think it’s harder to cheat when you are given an in person paper exam which kids in “in person” classes are still taking, as opposed to online classes. I am saying our CC did a survey asking kids if they prefer online and vast majority wants to stay online. A friend who teaches there reports exact same experience as described in this blog. He is convinced kids are opting for online because it’s so much easier to cheat.
I suspect this would be true everywhere, but unlike CCs where so many classes here remained online, four year publics seem to have transitioned most back to in person here. 

[Clemsondana]

42 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

This is precisely why overwhelming majorly of CC students prefer online classes. 
 

Edited to add I specified CC because that’s the data given by ours after surveying students. 

And it's so frustrating for other students and the instructors.  I've had to reword quiz and test questions such that if you just copy and paste them into google it doesn't give the right answer.  I used to do something like 'compare and contrast mitosis and meiosis' or 'give 1 similarity and 3 differences between mitosis and meiosis', but now I put in a bunch of other words, more like 'Mitosis and meiosis have some common stages and several differences.  Give 3 examples of differences, and explain one characteristic that they have in common' which is not nearly as tidy of a question but it is understandable by students while confusing google.  I also ask them to fill in tables or charts, since google has no clue what to do with that.  

And, I hate that it's so prevalent in the online classes, too...my kid is choosing to DE with an asynchronous class in the fall because kid doesn't want to have the commute time for just one class.  Kid plans to take classes on campus the next year, when the schedule will involve multiple classes - a 30 minute commute is fine for 2-4 classes, but kid said that they didn't want to spend more time driving than they did in class in the fall.  🙂  

[Roadrunner]

4 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

And it's so frustrating for other students and the instructors.  I've had to reword quiz and test questions such that if you just copy and paste them into google it doesn't give the right answer.  I used to do something like 'compare and contrast mitosis and meiosis' or 'give 1 similarity and 3 differences between mitosis and meiosis', but now I put in a bunch of other words, more like 'Mitosis and meiosis have some common stages and several differences.  Give 3 examples of differences, and explain one characteristic that they have in common' which is not nearly as tidy of a question but it is understandable by students while confusing google.  I also ask them to fill in tables or charts, since google has no clue what to do with that.  

And, I hate that it's so prevalent in the online classes, too...my kid is choosing to DE with an asynchronous class in the fall because kid doesn't want to have the commute time for just one class.  Kid plans to take classes on campus the next year, when the schedule will involve multiple classes - a 30 minute commute is fine for 2-4 classes, but kid said that they didn't want to spend more time driving than they did in class in the fall.  🙂  

I have been telling my friend to offer online with in person exams or an option to have it proctored by certified centers. My kid took a class like that. Material was all online, but exams had to be taken on person in class and accounted for 75% of his grade. I think this is a win win situation for many.

 

[Lilaclady]

That was a long article but really interesting. It’s sad that cheating has gone way up since the pandemic. I don’t know what’s going to happen with education in this country in the next 10 years but I’m not optimistic. 

[teachermom2834]

My dh teaches online science classes for a community college system. He has done it for about 15 years now and it has gotten so much worse. 
 

He gets identical lab reports from multiple people every time (exact identical measurements) so he always emails them and says it is okay to work with other classmates just let him know who they worked with so he knows they aren’t cheating. They can never identify who might have the identical results so he knows it is out there somewhere online. He gives them a zero for cheating and tells them not to do it again and they don’t argue. So they basically admit it. Seems every semester the first assignments have several students sending up a trial balloon for if they are going to be able to get away with it. He gives them zeros and they don’t argue and they hand in original work the next time. It’s like the figure it is worth the try on the first assignment to see if they can get by with it.

[Dmmetler]

L attends a private school with an honors code and an expectation of collaboration, so most classes have professor assigned study groups and assignments intended to be done as a group, either together or by dividing the work up. After getting a failing grade on a study guide done by a professor assigned group due to one person copying from a student in a different group (each group had slightly different questions), L went to the professor and was told “yes, I know which person did it and who they copied from,  because I can see attributions in the LMS, but I am required to send out the notifications and do it as a group grade”. The result was that for ALL future group assignments, L has done 100% of the work for those group assignments, and, if another group member actually DOES it too, they choose which answers to use from each person. In no class have there ever been more than 2/4 members of said group who actually participate, and those who would cheat are willing to freeload. It’s better than failing work you did your part of. 
 

Somehow, I don’t think that’s the collaborative learning lesson that was intended.

[Clemsondana]

18 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

 

Somehow, I don’t think that’s the collaborative learning lesson that was intended.

That's not surprising, unfortunately.  I came across the article in a twitter thread, and the poster was complaining about professor who had responded to the 'my students cheat' post with 'why not call it collaboration?'.  I think a lot of learning can happen collaboratively - most instructors wanted students to work together in labs or on homework problem sets, or even have some small amount of discussion around projects.  Maybe it's just my STEM background, but I always felt like working together to learn was great but there comes a point where the point is to show that you have actually done the learning part.  When you teach students headed into the health sciences or medical research, you develop something of a hang-up about them actually knowing things.  

And, to the rest of your post...our primary group work was in labs, and it was a wonderful thing that, by our last 2 years, we had figured out who to partner with to do the labs.  I'm still in facebook contact with the study/lab partner that I worked with my junior year of college!  There was nothing worse than putting together a lab/project group full of people that you didn't know and who didn't have comparable grade/work/ethics standards.  

[lmrich]

I will tell you all what happened to my dd and please share with your kids... 

Freshman year - winter 2021 - Covid times - My dd and her roommate are in the same science lab class which is online. They do the lab together, although they are not lab partners, but dd writes her lab report by herself and turns in it; the roommate does the same. My dd gets an A; the roommate gets a C-. So roommate asks dd to see what she did to get an A. DD shows her and teaches her how to write a lab report better. The roommate is really struggling with a lot of mental health stuff so dd helps roommate on the next lab, too. (and at this point of the story my dd gets Covid but not the roommate) My dd still "attends" online classes and does not get any grace for having Covid - also beside the point. While dd is napping, the roommate uses my dd's computer and copies dd's lab, without dd's permission. My dd is thrilled that the roommate is doing better with the lab; dd asks her about it and she tells my dd what she did. DD is ticked off but then the roommate, who is struggling even more with mental health stuff, leaves all together and goes to live with her mom at the beach but still does her online classes. DD is rocking the science class and lab. She forms a study group for the exam, etc.. DD gets an A in the class and an A in the lab. Then both my dd and her roommate get a  letter to let them know they are being investigated for cheating. My dd and roommate tell all that happened. (I was present for the 'trial' which was on Zoom so I know this is all true) My dd apologized and said she was helping her friend and that it was obvious that her roommate/friend did not  know how to do a lab report properly, but dd did (thanks to her awesome mom's teaching way  back in 7th grade). The  roommate admitted that she copied dd's lab reports without dd's permission.  The verdict came in two weeks later - two counts of cheating for the roommate and suspended from the college for a year. My dd was found guilty of not reporting a cheating incident and was reprimanded for a holding  study group where suspiciously all the attendees did well on the exam (not all A's by the way) and that all girls who attended got the same wrong answers (yes - because they studied the wrong answer) - my dd got suspended for a semester and is on academic probation for two years and got an F for the lab. 

If you read all that, let it serve as a warning. My dd was devastated. It was awful. She had one of the highest grades in the class. She was most enranged and confused about the study group allegations and tried to 'clear' her name of any suspecious activity  and tried to gain  an understanding of what was wrong with a study group. The ethics board did not respond to her questions. DD re enrolled for spring semester. So now dd (who loved hosting study groups because it helped her so much with gaining a greater understanding of the material and in general just loves hosting anything) will never study with anyone else. She refused to help her boyfriend, who was in the same class with her, with any of his homework. She is so scared of getting accused of anything. And her relationship with her roommate, who was her best friend for 5 years, is over. The roommate is not coming back to that college ever again. 

Cheating is wrong. AND if you know of cheating, you are going to get in trouble, too, apparently. Please share with your kids. It was truly a nightmare for my dd and, I think, most would agree that her actions were not too horrible - still against the ethical code -  and  I bet 98% of your kids would never have reported their best friend/roommate either. 

[Clemsondana]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

I have been telling my friend to offer online with in person exams or an option to have it proctored by certified centers. My kid took a class like that. Material was all online, but exams had to be taken on person in class and accounted for 75% of his grade. I think this is a win win situation for many.

 

The CC where I used to teach had a great testing center that I used for make-up tests.  Kid would have no problem popping over 3-4 times to take tests if needed.  For multiple choice or very short answer tests, timed questions can also help but then you get an onslaught of emails from students saying that they didn't know that it was timed, or that it makes them anxious...as I learned when I accidentally had a timed short quiz (students rarely take more than 6-8 minutes, but struggled with 2 minutes each for 5 questions...).  

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

That's not surprising, unfortunately.  I came across the article in a twitter thread, and the poster was complaining about professor who had responded to the 'my students cheat' post with 'why not call it collaboration?'.  I think a lot of learning can happen collaboratively - most instructors wanted students to work together in labs or on homework problem sets, or even have some small amount of discussion around projects.  Maybe it's just my STEM background, but I always felt like working together to learn was great but there comes a point where the point is to show that you have actually done the learning part.  When you teach students headed into the health sciences or medical research, you develop something of a hang-up about them actually knowing things.  

And, to the rest of your post...our primary group work was in labs, and it was a wonderful thing that, by our last 2 years, we had figured out who to partner with to do the labs.  I'm still in facebook contact with the study/lab partner that I worked with my junior year of college!  There was nothing worse than putting together a lab/project group full of people that you didn't know and who didn't have comparable grade/work/ethics standards.  

I agree, collaborative learning could be great, but not for everybody. My kid had a math class set up like that - small round tables with 3-4 kids at each, and problem sets to work on in the class. The result? All the strong kids loved it and all the weak kids just copied over work from stronger kids and sadly didn’t learn as much as needed if they had to struggle alone on those problems.  AP scores made what happened in that class clearly visible. For my kid, it was perfect.

[Sneezyone]

45 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

L attends a private school with an honors code and an expectation of collaboration, so most classes have professor assigned study groups and assignments intended to be done as a group, either together or by dividing the work up. After getting a failing grade on a study guide done by a professor assigned group due to one person copying from a student in a different group (each group had slightly different questions), L went to the professor and was told “yes, I know which person did it and who they copied from,  because I can see attributions in the LMS, but I am required to send out the notifications and do it as a group grade”. The result was that for ALL future group assignments, L has done 100% of the work for those group assignments, and, if another group member actually DOES it too, they choose which answers to use from each person. In no class have there ever been more than 2/4 members of said group who actually participate, and those who would cheat are willing to freeload. It’s better than failing work you did your part of. 
 

Somehow, I don’t think that’s the collaborative learning lesson that was intended.

oooooooh. This is good to know.

[teachermom2834]

 @lmrichWhat am awful ordeal. And especially unfair when most professors and administrators look the other way or give lots of warnings for much bigger infractions. 
 

My current college student and his girlfriend have many of the same classes and I worry that somehow they will get accused of cheating or implicated in something for working together. Innocently or even not so innocently if he is tempted to help her with something she is struggling with or vice versa. They both have truly amazing scholarships (life changing amounts of aid and opportunities) and it feels like they have even more on the line than an average student. 

I give lots of reminders of how a bad grade or retaking a class is easier to recover from than a cheating charge. Cheating is definitely rampant where they are and it worries me that they could get caught up intentionally or unintentionally even. Hopefully it is less of an issue as they move into the upper level classes and out of the big intro classes. They have both had classes where they were in a minority who did not cheat when the rest of a class was busted so hopefully that scared them- but then I don’t know what consequences anyone actually faced.

Edited May 30, 2022 by teachermom2834

[Dmmetler]

1 hour ago, Clemsondana said:

That's not surprising, unfortunately.  I came across the article in a twitter thread, and the poster was complaining about professor who had responded to the 'my students cheat' post with 'why not call it collaboration?'.  I think a lot of learning can happen collaboratively - most instructors wanted students to work together in labs or on homework problem sets, or even have some small amount of discussion around projects.  Maybe it's just my STEM background, but I always felt like working together to learn was great but there comes a point where the point is to show that you have actually done the learning part.  When you teach students headed into the health sciences or medical research, you develop something of a hang-up about them actually knowing things.  

And, to the rest of your post...our primary group work was in labs, and it was a wonderful thing that, by our last 2 years, we had figured out who to partner with to do the labs.  I'm still in facebook contact with the study/lab partner that I worked with my junior year of college!  There was nothing worse than putting together a lab/project group full of people that you didn't know and who didn't have comparable grade/work/ethics standards.  

 

 

55 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

oooooooh. This is good to know.

L's really hoping that this is an artifact of the specific classes, and possibly of COVID meaning that while it is normal for STEM majors to come in with the equivalent of AP Bio and Chem, and the classes are designed at that level, a larger percentage of kids were weaker than normal, so professors were assigning groups based on "These are the kids we think know what they're doing, and let's spread them out", and doing the study guides in the hopes of pulling the weaker kids through the content-a lot of STEM kids entering college this past fall had AP bio in 2019-2020.  Humanities classes tended to have discussion groups, but individual assignments, and that worked much better (but also, I suspect that humanities were hit less hard by the pandemic),  L is hoping that next semester will be better, since it's more classes specific to the major and individual focus in major (L doesn't expect all the pre-med majors to be taking behavioral ecology, for example....)

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

 

 

L's really hoping that this is an artifact of the specific classes, and possibly of COVID meaning that while it is normal for STEM majors to come in with the equivalent of AP Bio and Chem, and the classes are designed at that level, a larger percentage of kids were weaker than normal, so professors were assigning groups based on "These are the kids we think know what they're doing, and let's spread them out", and doing the study guides in the hopes of pulling the weaker kids through the content-a lot of STEM kids entering college this past fall had AP bio in 2019-2020.  Humanities classes tended to have discussion groups, but individual assignments, and that worked much better (but also, I suspect that humanities were hit less hard by the pandemic),  L is hoping that next semester will be better, since it's more classes specific to the major and individual focus in major (L doesn't expect all the pre-med majors to be taking behavioral ecology, for example....)

This is, in part, why I keep advocating for DD to major in a math-heavy discipline tho and now I'm worried. The math and science classes at her HS are robust (even at the non-AP level) and she struggles with processing speed. She can do it all, and well, but she needs more time. If she has to do all/most of the busy work to avoid being punished for the sins of others, in multiple classes, that'd be a deal-breaker. It's definitely something to discuss with admissions reps.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Sneezyone

[KSera]

4 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I didn’t say it’s happening in some places more than others. I think it’s harder to cheat when you are given an in person paper exam which kids in “in person” classes are still taking, as opposed to online classes. I am saying our CC did a survey asking kids if they prefer online and vast majority wants to stay online. A friend who teaches there reports exact same experience as described in this blog. He is convinced kids are opting for online because it’s so much easier to cheat.
 

I think the preferring online for community college is just as likely to be due to the fact that community college students tend to be living at home, so it’s a lot more helpful to them to not have to commute for all their classes than it is for university students living on or near campus. Add to that the community college students are more often also working while trying to take classes, and that makes commuting even more of a pain. 

4 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I have been telling my friend to offer online with in person exams or an option to have it proctored by certified centers. My kid took a class like that. Material was all online, but exams had to be taken on person in class and accounted for 75% of his grade. I think this is a win win situation for many.

The online proctored tests are pretty stressful for a lot of kids, and feel pretty invasive when they’re the kind where the proctor requires them to pan the camera all around the room and show their surroundings. I understand why they do that, but it feels pretty invasive, and all the more for students who might be embarrassed about their surroundings. Having tests be 75% of a student’s grade is also super harsh for those students who don’t test well, including particularly those for slow processing speed and/or test anxiety. It’s great for some students— I was always a great tester and would have loved that set up versus a lot of time consuming assignments— but I have a couple kids that would be awful for despite them frequently having a better, deeper understanding of the material than I probably would have had despite acing tests.

I really appreciate this thread though, as I will be passing along knowledge gained from it to my kids in, or soon to be in, college.

[Roadrunner]

28 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think the preferring online for community college is just as likely to be due to the fact that community college students tend to be living at home, so it’s a lot more helpful to them to not have to commute for all their classes than it is for university students living on or near campus. Add to that the community college students are more often also working while trying to take classes, and that makes commuting even more of a pain. 

The online proctored tests are pretty stressful for a lot of kids, and feel pretty invasive when they’re the kind where the proctor requires them to pan the camera all around the room and show their surroundings. I understand why they do that, but it feels pretty invasive, and all the more for students who might be embarrassed about their surroundings. Having tests be 75% of a student’s grade is also super harsh for those students who don’t test well, including particularly those for slow processing speed and/or test anxiety. It’s great for some students— I was always a great tester and would have loved that set up versus a lot of time consuming assignments— but I have a couple kids that would be awful for despite them frequently having a better, deeper understanding of the material than I probably would have had despite acing tests.

I really appreciate this thread though, as I will be passing along knowledge gained from it to my kids in, or soon to be in, college.

Not online proctored tests. You aren’t reading what I am saying. In person paper tests either in class or proctored by a qualified testing center if they aren’t local. If you take a distance learning class often you can go to your community college and take the exam at a proctoring center. 
 

I am sorry, but having tests determine 75% of grade is just routine here for math and science, especially with older teachers. At least it isn’t 100% dependent on your final, as it often is in Europe.  
 

Sit agains the wall. Put a filter on. Put up white paper behind. 🙄 go to the library. Sit outside….. I can keep going.

 

By the way the best tests and finals my kid took were proctored online live. No software. They were only 15 of them in class and each was handwriting  the final and screen was supposed to show what they were writing. Painless. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Clemsondana]

23 minutes ago, KSera said:

The online proctored tests are pretty stressful for a lot of kids, and feel pretty invasive when they’re the kind where the proctor requires them to pan the camera all around the room and show their surroundings. I understand why they do that, but it feels pretty invasive, and all the more for students who might be embarrassed about their surroundings. Having tests be 75% of a student’s grade is also super harsh for those students who don’t test well, including particularly those for slow processing speed and/or test anxiety. It’s great for some students— I was always a great tester and would have loved that set up versus a lot of time consuming assignments— but I have a couple kids that would be awful for despite them frequently having a better, deeper understanding of the material than I probably would have had despite acing tests.

Just FYI  and unrelated to cheating - back when I taught at a CC, we were required to have 75% of our grade come from 'closed note assessment'.  You could use a mix of tests and quizzes in whatever proportion you chose.  The course was a pre-req for a lot of the health science professions and frequently used by students transferring to the State U.  I think that a lot of the courses in that pathway were the same, presumably because most of us want nurses who know anatomy and didn't get a passing grade from participation points and open-book work.  I wouldn't be surprised if this was specific to certain departments, but since I only taught in one I can't know...although I do seem to remember having more flexibility the one time that I taught a class for non-majors.  

[HomeAgain]

I can see this being a problem, but outside of maths, there have been other ways that my professors have assessed learning that can't be cheated:

elaborate final projects demonstrating x number of concepts

video demonstration

class participation counting for more than the tests

group assessments (like Kahoots) to gauge where everyone is at

papers up the wazoo

essay questions

 

I only had one traditional exam this year.  It was timed, but we had had more casual assessments so cheating would have been obvious if a student had a score that was quite outside their norm.  All of my classes have been online and I really prefer the format.  I'm not blocking 4 hours out of my schedule for a 2 hour class.  I don't have to worry about having a sitter or making concessions about what I can attend.  And it's interesting because I can see all the rest of my classmates attending from their cars, workplaces, bedrooms, library, hospital bed, hotel room...no one is missing class because they can't physically get to the school.

[Clemsondana]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I am sorry, but having tests determine 75% of grade is just routine here for math and science, especially with older teachers. At least it isn’t 100% dependent on your final, as it often is in Europe.  

My engineering husband often had project and problem sets as part of his grade, but in the sciences it wasn't unusual to have 3-6 tests averaged together as your grade.  I had a lot of classes that had no assignments other than 'learn the material and study a lot'.  We never had just a final, but grades were often just tests.  

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Sit agains the wall. Put a filter on. Put up white paper behind. 🙄 go to the library. Sit outside….. I can keep going.

I don’t know how all of them have been done for my other kids, but the one who had to do one live proctored at home kept being told to take more and more things down off the walls of the only bedroom in the house that was well suited for them to have a quiet place to take a test. No filters allowed for sure.  The library certainly wouldn’t have worked because it required them to speak out loud to the live proctor.  I’m just saying it’s an issue for some people. I’ve heard of many other situations, kids living in poverty situations, etc. where it’s been difficult.  I agree that going into the testing center for tests only can be a good solution for non-pandemic testing situations. Obviously would not have been a solution when nothing was in person due to the pandemic.

24 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

Just FYI  and unrelated to cheating - back when I taught at a CC, we were required to have 75% of our grade come from 'closed note assessment'.  You could use a mix of tests and quizzes in whatever proportion you chose.  The course was a pre-req for a lot of the health science professions and frequently used by students transferring to the State U.  I think that a lot of the courses in that pathway were the same, presumably because most of us want nurses who know anatomy and didn't get a passing grade from participation points and open-book work.  I wouldn't be surprised if this was specific to certain departments, but since I only taught in one I can't know...although I do seem to remember having more flexibility the one time that I taught a class for non-majors.  

I agree for certain kinds of classes that tests almost have to be most of your grade. I’m in a similar kind of field where that was the case. A good number of required classes are basically just a ton of memorization and there’s really no way around that. But, for students who purposely haven’t chosen fields like that because that’s not their strength, I think it’s good for there to be fields that don’t rely on testing as the primary/only way of evaluating if not necessary. I’m biased by having a couple of exceedingly bright kids who have some difficulties with testing and I think they should have options. 

[Roadrunner]

Everything is an issue for some people. And sometimes it’s not the best time to be taking classes in somebody’s life. And sometimes it’s just an excuse. Students complained about proctorial due to their privacy (yes, same students that air their entire lives on social media) so now any online test can’t be proctored so the demand for those classes is off the roof. Hmmm, let’s think here. 
Free bus tickets, free laptops, free internet access…. Still the excuses keep coming. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Roadrunner]

56 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

My engineering husband often had project and problem sets as part of his grade, but in the sciences it wasn't unusual to have 3-6 tests averaged together as your grade.  I had a lot of classes that had no assignments other than 'learn the material and study a lot'.  We never had just a final, but grades were often just tests.  

We have seen in physics particularly tests and exams accounting for the majority of grade. I will tell you worse. Sometimes those tests only have 4-5 questions and you miss one and there goes your grade. 
I told my kid to cope. That’s life. He is lucky there were makeups for sickness on APs. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Everything is an issue for some people. And sometimes it’s not the best time to be taking classes in somebody’s life. And sometimes it’s just an excuse. Students complained about proctorial due to their privacy (yes, same students that air their entire lives on social media) so now any online test can’t be proctored so the demand for those classes is off the roof. Hmmm, let’s think here. 
Free bus tickets, free laptops, free internet access…. Still the excuses keep coming. 

I'm sure there are some people who take advantage of things, but it makes me sad that would be your default take. My reply started just as a way to explain another perspective of why some community college students might prefer online classes that had nothing to do with it being because they want to cheat. Not everyone is leading an easy life, and that doesn't mean they shouldn't have opportunities to better their situation.

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

I'm sure there are some people who take advantage of things, but it makes me sad that would be your default take. My reply started just as a way to explain another perspective of why some community college students might prefer online classes that had nothing to do with it being because they want to cheat. Not everyone is leading an easy life, and that doesn't mean they shouldn't have opportunities to better their situation.

Sure, but why not at least commit to taking tests and finals in person? That’s the least one can do. We found that to be a good compromise, and it certainly prevented students from cheating and hopefully kept teachers less concerned. 
 

Honestly I have lost all faith in people. Seen enough. Heard enough. What that blog describes has become the norm.  And stories coming home with my kid from high school aren’t painting a different picture. 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Roadrunner

[lewelma]

My son's statistics class has weekly online quizzes, which you can take as many times as you like and you keep the highest grade. They take about an hour to complete. But the key point is that they have a bank of 30 questions, and your quiz each time you take it is a random selection of 10 questions from the bank (they make sure there is an equal number of easy, medium, and hard problems.) This has worked great to encourage my son to do the quizzes over and over until he gets 100%, so helping him learn the content. And it is hard to cheat, because you would have to know all 30 questions, and there are not just 3 quizzes, but rather a random selection of 10 questions per quiz. He told me last night that the mean for the 500 students taking the class was 51%!!  So clearly these kids are not doing what my son is doing and taking it over and over so he really knows the material. He has gotten 100% on 9 quizzes so far. Just one to go.

[EKS]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

My son's statistics class has weekly online quizzes, which you can take as many times as you like and you keep the highest grade.

What a great idea!  We have homework like this, but the quizzes can usually only be taken once.  

I have to say that I haven't encountered anything like what was described in the article, and I'm in a group chat thing.  Everyone in there is very careful not to divulge test questions.

[El...]

This article was great to read with my upcoming high school kid, as a jumping off point to discuss cheating. She laughed, but she understood some things!

I wished I'd had more cultural information as a homeschooled kid.

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Sure, but why not at least commit to taking tests and finals in person? That’s the least one can do. We found that to be a good compromise, and it certainly prevented students from cheating and hopefully kept teachers less concerned. 
 

I don’t think this was about anyone not committing to tests in person. It was about reasons other than wanting to cheat that some students might prefer online classes.

Edited May 31, 2022 by KSera

[Roadrunner]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

I don’t think this was about anyone not committing to tests in person. It was about reasons other than wanting to cheat that some students might prefer online classes.

Of course there are other reasons. People have been earning online degrees for 15 years as far as I remember. 
But CCs here have always been in person for as long as I remember and somehow people still managed to attend them in greater numbers than now. I stay firm that the big chunk of those who want to remain online indefinitely want so because of ease of cheating. 

[KSera]

12 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I stay firm that the big chunk of those who want to remain online indefinitely want so because of ease of cheating. 

ECAR Study of Community College Students and Information Technology

Quote

Community college students are juggling more responsibilities than
their four-year peers. They are older, more often employed, and twice
as likely to be married or in a domestic partnership. The majority of
community college students are financially independent, and they are
more likely to have dependents of their own. More women than men at
community colleges reported living on their own and having dependents.

Quote

Community college students who are women, those who work,
students who are married or in a domestic partnership, and those with
dependents are all more likely to prefer learning environments that are
mostly or completely online. This preference is likely due to the demands
of balancing work schedules, family responsibilities, and academics.
Around half of community college students prefer blended learning
environments, but they are also twice as likely as four-year students to
prefer courses that are completely online.

 

[lewelma]

Can I ask the deeper question? Why cheat? Seems to me that kids who don't want to learn still have to get a university degree because universities act as gate keepers to jobs, and degrees are a form of signalling. 

[Roadrunner]

47 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Can I ask the deeper question? Why cheat? Seems to me that kids who don't want to learn still have to get a university degree because universities act as gate keepers to jobs, and degrees are a form of signalling. 

Exactly. That’s what my friend is saying.

We need better high school to job training so kids who aren’t interested in learning don’t have to endure college.

 

[Roadrunner]

54 minutes ago, KSera said:

ECAR Study of Community College Students and Information Technology

 

That was all still true during the pandemic when students still showed up in person. 

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

That was all still true during the pandemic when students still showed up in person. 

I'm sorry, I'm not following.

[Dmmetler]

11 hours ago, lewelma said:

Can I ask the deeper question? Why cheat? Seems to me that kids who don't want to learn still have to get a university degree because universities act as gate keepers to jobs, and degrees are a form of signalling. 

I think that is definitely the case for some students. FWIW, the one who cheated on the assignment ended up dropping the class almost immediately after being caught. It seems likely that she was overwhelmed with the class. Realistically, if she couldn't do the study guide, she would have failed the test. 

[Dmmetler]

12 hours ago, lewelma said:

My son's statistics class has weekly online quizzes, which you can take as many times as you like and you keep the highest grade. They take about an hour to complete. But the key point is that they have a bank of 30 questions, and your quiz each time you take it is a random selection of 10 questions from the bank (they make sure there is an equal number of easy, medium, and hard problems.) This has worked great to encourage my son to do the quizzes over and over until he gets 100%, so helping him learn the content. And it is hard to cheat, because you would have to know all 30 questions, and there are not just 3 quizzes, but rather a random selection of 10 questions per quiz. He told me last night that the mean for the 500 students taking the class was 51%!!  So clearly these kids are not doing what my son is doing and taking it over and over so he really knows the material. He has gotten 100% on 9 quizzes so far. Just one to go.

I like that set up. The CC uses that for some of the math classes as well. In S's case, I am convinced that it's the only reason why she was able to pass the math classes at all (in some cases, I think she memorized the entire question bank after she'd taken it enough times). Realistically, she's never going to be a strong math student (she has severe LD issues in math, and simply cannot make the jump to algebra), so for her, getting a passing score was 100% a hoop to jump. 

[EKS]

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

In S's case, I am convinced that it's the only reason why she was able to pass the math classes at all (in some cases, I think she memorized the entire question bank after she'd taken it enough times).

I actually will go through the entire question bank (or the relevant sections anyway) if there is a question bank to be gone through.  In my current class, it's like 20-30 relevant questions for each section, so no too terrible.  I end up spending 10-15 hours per week on the class, which for a 3 unit class seems to me entirely reasonable.  If I were to just watch the lecture videos, do the homework, and take the assessments, I'd be spending maybe 5 hours tops.

Of course, I'm not just memorizing answers.  I'm doing it for two reasons--(1) it gives me more practice with a wider variety of problems than are in the homework, which means that I learn better, and (2) it allows me to find any weirdness that the online platform has introduced into how they want answers formatted.  This second reason is a big deal for a person trying to get perfect scores.  For example, just recently the platform rejected my answer of 3/2.  It wanted 1.5.  When the instructor refuses to grant credit for issues like this, finding them ahead of time is critical.

So I guess my point here is that memorizing the answers to the entire question bank is different from remembering the questions and being able to get the answers because you (perhaps over) prepared by doing all of the problems in the question bank.

Edited May 31, 2022 by EKS

[Wheres Toto]

17 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Exactly. That’s what my friend is saying.

We need better high school to job training so kids who aren’t interested in learning don’t have to endure college.

 

Online CC classes didn't just start with the pandemic.   Our local CC has been offering online classes for at least 10 years.   Some required in-person proctoring of tests (as did the classes I took through Thomas Edison 20-ish years ago), but others had options for various other types of assignments or testing.    

My oldest finished her 4 year degree in 2016.  She took one online course because of how it fit into her schedule and it was a required course, tests didn't require in person proctoring.

Most of the objection to in-person proctoring I've seen recently has been because of the pandemic.   Our local CC campus was completely closed until the end of last year, and with the current trends there are a LOT of people who still don't want to sit in a large room of people who are probably mask-less to take a test.    

[Brittany1116]

I earned my degrees in 2007 and took exactly one online class at my CC. It was creative writing, so "collaboration" wouldn't have made any sense. The world wasn't as digitally-connected then, so cheating would have been more in-person. 

I agree with the above comments on CC student profiles. In my program, I was an atypical student as a kid fresh out of high school. There were 2 guys within 3 years of my age, and our class average age was 38. Women to men, it was 4:1, and more than half of the women had kids and another job.

[regentrude]

Yes, cheating is rampant, especially in an online setting. During the height of the pandemic, I had to switch from in-person exams to online exams. I made myself crazy trying to prevent cheating: I wrote an extensive question bank of hundreds of questions from which questions could be assigned randomly to students, made sure to organize the banks so that all students got questions in all topics, had the entire class take the exam simultaneously (as would have been the case with in-person exams).... but of course I had no control over who was the person actually taking the exam, since you cannot proctor a class of 500 via Zoom.

I realized that I had the choice of spending my time and energy either on cheat prevention or on actual teaching. Eventually, I made my peace with the fact that students determined to cheat will do so, that there is very little I can do to prove any but the most egregious cases, and that the academic integrity office has a poor track record in disciplining cheating students once a report has been filed (instructors are not permitted to impose sanctions). So I let it go.
I will put my energy into making sure that those students who wish to learn can do so. I am not willing to engage in a technological arms race with students determined to cheat - after seeing what is available in terms of miniature cameras/ear pieces that are undetectable even during a live exam, I realize that is entirely futile. I teach, and do it well. Lying awake agonizing over cheating is just making me crazy. Those who want to learn, can. Those who just want to purchase degrees, will.

ETA: A colleague at another institution reported having a student who was paid to take an entire degree program under another person's name. That has to take the cake.

Edited May 31, 2022 by regentrude

[Bootsie]

19 hours ago, lewelma said:

My son's statistics class has weekly online quizzes, which you can take as many times as you like and you keep the highest grade. They take about an hour to complete. But the key point is that they have a bank of 30 questions, and your quiz each time you take it is a random selection of 10 questions from the bank (they make sure there is an equal number of easy, medium, and hard problems.) This has worked great to encourage my son to do the quizzes over and over until he gets 100%, so helping him learn the content. And it is hard to cheat, because you would have to know all 30 questions, and there are not just 3 quizzes, but rather a random selection of 10 questions per quiz. He told me last night that the mean for the 500 students taking the class was 51%!!  So clearly these kids are not doing what my son is doing and taking it over and over so he really knows the material. He has gotten 100% on 9 quizzes so far. Just one to go.

If the 30 questions are mathematical, algorithmically generated questions, this is much easier for the professor to set up.  Having 30 questions in a test bank that are Y = (30^4)/92.7  where the problem is the same but the numbers are different, generates a unique set of questions each time and the student must work through the problems each time.  If the quiz is multiple choice (What planet do we live on?  A. Pluto B. Earth C. Mars) then 30 questions in a test bank is nothing when students can do a 10 questions quiz repeatedly.  By the time several students "take the quiz" (that is go through the questions clicking any response just to see what the questions are--because remember, the grade doesn't really count) a few times, all of the questions in the test bank are revealed.  A quick picture of the screen and electronically the 30 questions in the test banks are shared with everyone.  

[regentrude]

On 5/30/2022 at 2:54 PM, Sneezyone said:

This is, in part, why I keep advocating for DD to major in a math-heavy discipline tho and now I'm worried. The math and science classes at her HS are robust (even at the non-AP level) and she struggles with processing speed. She can do it all, and well, but she needs more time. If she has to do all/most of the busy work to avoid being punished for the sins of others, in multiple classes, that'd be a deal-breaker. It's definitely something to discuss with admissions reps.

Admissions staff won't have a clue about the requirements for doing work in specific math and science classes.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Admissions staff won't have a clue about the requirements for doing work in specific math and science classes.

It wasn't regarding SPECIFIC math and science classes but classes in general. If they have a grading policy that requires the punishment of all students on group assignments for the actions of one member, that's something they should be able to find out and speak on.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

It wasn't regarding SPECIFIC math and science classes but classes in general. If they have a grading policy that requires the punishment of all students on group assignments for the actions of one member, that's something they should be able to find out and speak on.

I would be very surprised if admissions folks knew anything about classes. There usually is no uniform grading policy for the entire institution; each instructor is free to establish their own criteria.

[Sneezyone]

41 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I would be very surprised if admissions folks knew anything about classes. There usually is no uniform grading policy for the entire institution; each instructor is free to establish their own criteria.

If that's the case they can say that too but the post I was responding to suggested the policy was broader than an individual professor. The idea that one shouldn't deign to ask about a policy that has implications for students who cannot afford to double or quadruple their workload to avoid being penalized for others' behavior is cray.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Clemsondana]

18 hours ago, lewelma said:

Can I ask the deeper question? Why cheat? Seems to me that kids who don't want to learn still have to get a university degree because universities act as gate keepers to jobs, and degrees are a form of signalling. 

Based on what I've seen, CC students seem to be in a few categories (and much, but not all, of this also fits traditional U students). 

There is a popualtion of traditional college-age students who have at least some semblance of a plan - they may do CC for 2 years because it's cheaper, but they are at least adequate students who are going to do the work to pass their classes.  They may be truly interested or they may be jumping through hoops to get a job.  

There are older/nontraditional students who are looking to get back in the workforce after staying home (with kids or other caregiving) or who are wanting to change careers.  They are usually motivated to learn and get through it quickly.  This is mostly who I taught, since I taught weekend classes at a CC (favorite story - a former Marine saying 'Ma'am, I like your class. You make it clear what we need to do to meet the objectives.')

In states that have HOPE or other 2-year scholarships, there is a third category.  These students have always been there, but now, if my former students are accurate in what they say they are seeing, there are more of them.  This group doesn't quite know what they want to do after finishing high school (which is fine) so they go take some CC classes since it's free.  They may do OK and find something that interests them, or they may just muck around until the money runs out or they lose the scholarhip due to low GPA.  They have the idea that you can make more $/get a better job if you go to college.  This is where I think a lot of the problem is.  There likely should be a premium for college grades who have special skills that they learned in college.  This is why engineers tend to make more $ - not as many people have those skills.  But, there is no extra income for people who took a few classes, or who got a degree in something that isn't useful for the job...but, some places require a degree to get a job, whether you need one or not.  I wish there was much less of this!  

And, as for why they cheat...I usually see it for one of 2 reasons.  One is that students panic - they realize that they don't know the material, whether it's because they were slacking or the class is too difficult, and they panic because they need a passing grade to keep their scholarship or not derail their plans because the class is a pre-req.  The other reason is when students decide that they don't need to know material and feel that it's a waste of their time. Like, I once had a couple of students come to me and say 'We've been talking and we don't think that we need to be spending so much time on these metric/dose calculations since we'll never need this and it's hard' which is a paraphrase but pretty much accurate.  Another time a student said that there was no need to be spending so much time studying the basic macromolecules.  They were in the first bio class of the nursing sequence.  They don't know what they need.  For that matter, neither do I, since I haven't taken the nursing sequence, but I know what I"m required to teach and what the transfer agreement with State U specifies and what will be on the common lab final...but I can see how, with that attitude, cheating seems justified since in their mind learning the content is just a senseless hoop rather than a precursor for what comes in the next class.  And, to be fair, I knew the person who taught the nutrition class, who assured me that knowing what a carbohydrate and protein looked like was indeed something that they would use again.  It's like it's a bad combo of ignorance and arrogance, where a novice thinks they know best what they need to know without even knowing what is coming next.  My huband, in a different field, taught a required senior course and he sometimes saw the 'I don't need to know that!' come back to bite students because they couldn't do the projects required to pass the class.  He wasn't sure how they had gotten to be seniors, but apparently there was a 'helpful' prof who taught some of the prereq classes and didn't like to give poor grades so he just passed kids along.  Yikes.  

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

My huband, in a different field, taught a required senior course and he sometimes saw the 'I don't need to know that!' come back to bite students because they couldn't do the projects required to pass the class.  He wasn't sure how they had gotten to be seniors, but apparently there was a 'helpful' prof who taught some of the prereq classes and didn't like to give poor grades so he just passed kids along.  Yikes.  

or who was pressured by the college administration to do something to lower the DFW rate or else.

It is very difficult to maintain academic standards when the main focus is on retention and student satisfaction.

Edited May 31, 2022 by regentrude