Student Loan Forgiveness

[Lillyfee]

There are definitely very good points about the US education system but there is also a lot to improve (like in any other country).

If I take the training for police officer. In Germany you have 3 years of intense police training everybody needs to go through. It's kind of like basic training in the military but for 3 years. You go away and live there and go to school. 

Job training is more valued at home while here college is everything.

 

 

 

[shawthorne44]

I wish we had tracking in schools starting early, but with the chance to change tracks if desired and with the work required.  I think it was Denmark that I read about where their University track was tough enough that many students said no to it.  

 

[Lillyfee]

I really do not want to talk the US system bad. I feel school here is more fun for the kids and the teachers are nicer and don't feel they are better than you. I also like the approach of no kids left behind versus in Germany kids need to repeat the grade if they fail two classes.

However, as we will probably stay here I want to see them do even better with affordable colleges and more options for non college kids. I hope I don't come off like just complaining.

However, I am still German and so complaining is just in my genes 

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

It can start in 9th in some places.  But what seems to be the difference, is that it’s very possible to “go back” in the US system.  Not easily, but possible. At least with my local tech school, you could go on to CC (immediately or later) and then a 4-year.  
I don’t get that impression from some other countries. Though I could be wrong!

In Austria it is possible to go back.  There are paths to university if you have done vo-tech.  Historically, I do not think it was so much of a situation of "your fate is determined by the time you are in fourth grade--either you are a studious, high-performing student and are on track to get a college education and you succeed or you are destined to a low-skilled, low-pay jobs all of your life" historically.  It was viewed more of a matching people to the the type of education they were best suited for and would be most likely successful for them.  The early elementary school years were spent teaching the basics and children explored the world around them, how to interact with others, how to act independently; there was not a lot of pressure that if you weren't doing high-level academic work in first grade you were failing and needed remediation to get ready for a big test that determined your life's future.  I think that has been changing somewhat and the "every child needs to go to university" mindset has been creeping in.  

[mommyoffive]

Biden signals he’s open to canceling student loans (msn.com)

[teachermom2834]

Dh is on the public service forgiveness plan. He just unexpectedly picked up credit for another year of payments. I don’t fully understand even though I have read article after article and all the info I can about it including last week’s latest updates. I still don’t understand. I think they are trying to forgive as much as they can through loosening the rules on these forgiveness plans that are already in place as one way to creep toward forgiveness without legislation.

Setting aside anyone’s feelings about loan forgiveness, I would advise anyone who is on any of these forgiveness plans to update all of their info in case you are able to pick up a few payments in your count. That is what dh did. He went back and certified public service from many years ago even though we didn’t think it would count in his eligible payments just in case. If dh hadn’t submitted that form it would have meant another year for him. 

[Dmmetler]

Personally, I’d like to see them drop the interest rate  dramatically vs cancelling loans entirely. I know some people who were actually able to make progress on their loans during the pandemic when before they’d barely been able to keep the balance from increasing, and never paid it down. 

[mommyoffive]

28,000 student-loan borrowers just got $238 million in debt wiped out after being 'misled about the quality of their programs,' Biden's Education Secretary says (msn.com)

[Happy2BaMom]

I understand the various viewpoints and deep thinking that many here are expressing and I agree (or am sympathetic) to most of them. However, the contrarian part of me is bugged by the fact that the US gives billions upon billions upon billions to businesses, corporations, rich people,  agribusiness and even churches (last year, thru PPP “loans”) and I don’t see the same level of resentment, consternation, desire from accountability, etc for all those aid dollars. 
This society views help for individuals with much more suspicion and concern than they/we do for all the handouts (many multiples of the amounts being discussed for student loan forgiveness) for organizations which act with no more accountability, prudence, or foresight than your average irresponsible 19-yo.
It’s telling. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[ktgrok]

We just got a card in the mail regarding a class action lawsuit against Navient, which was the company found to be using predatory and fraudulent practices regarding student loans. DH, who has six figures in debt for a degree from a school that has since been shut down in large part due to it's fraudulent practices in this regard, will get all of $260. Yup, less than 300 dollars back. So helpful. 

 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

10 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

We just got a card in the mail regarding a class action lawsuit against Navient, which was the company found to be using predatory and fraudulent practices regarding student loans. DH, who has six figures in debt for a degree from a school that has since been shut down in large part due to it's fraudulent practices in this regard, will get all of $260. Yup, less than 300 dollars back. So helpful. 

 

I still owe Navient $30,000 in large part because they pushed me towards deferment vs interest only or other modified payments. Yep, I’m also getting a whopping $260. Sigh.

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I understand the various viewpoints and deep thinking that many here are expressing and I agree (or am sympathetic) to most of them. However, the contrarian part of me is bugged by the fact that the US gives billions upon billions upon billions to businesses, corporations, rich people,  agribusiness and even churches (last year, thru PPP “loans”) and I don’t see the same level of resentment, consternation, desire from accountability, etc for all those aid dollars. 
This society views help for individuals with much more suspicion and concern than they/we do for all the handouts (many multiples of the amounts being discussed for student loan forgiveness) for organizations which act with no more accountability, prudence, or foresight than your average irresponsible 19-yo.
It’s telling. 

Personally, I am very concerned about all of these aid programs, especially when the US government is borrowing heavily to do so.  No one has started a thread about those, that I am aware of, but if one was started, you might see the same desire for accountability for aid dollars.  

The university where I teach qualified for some federal aid during the pandemic which it declined--mainly due to the perception that it is a private school which has a predominantly upper middle class student body and a "large" endowment.  Yet, it stated a policy that no one would be laid off during the pandemic.  However, benefits were drastically cut, pay increases were put on hold, and those who retired (encouraged through early retirement programs) were not replaced.  This meant that some people were doing a lot more work (like international programs figuring out how to get students home and faculty having to redevelop classes for online learning and cover classes for those who retired) while others continued to be paid (janitors, summer camp coordinators, special events coordinators) although they were doing none of their job.  There was concern about the backlash that would occur if the aid was accepted.

[Murphy101]

5 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I understand the various viewpoints and deep thinking that many here are expressing and I agree (or am sympathetic) to most of them. However, the contrarian part of me is bugged by the fact that the US gives billions upon billions upon billions to businesses, corporations, rich people,  agribusiness and even churches (last year, thru PPP “loans”) and I don’t see the same level of resentment, consternation, desire from accountability, etc for all those aid dollars. 
This society views help for individuals with much more suspicion and concern than they/we do for all the handouts (many multiples of the amounts being discussed for student loan forgiveness) for organizations which act with no more accountability, prudence, or foresight than your average irresponsible 19-yo.
It’s telling. 

I would not necessarily agree that it is a societal thing. Similar to this thread, myself and the majority of American society does actually feel angry and frustrated about corporate bailouts and corporate welfare being a given status from our govt but the the idea of a penance to individuals or student loan forgiveness is greeted by the same govt as some kind of deplorable pandering to degenerates.

This disparity between what the people think government should do vs what it repeatedly does do is no small factor is people’s disenfranchisement.

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I understand the various viewpoints and deep thinking that many here are expressing and I agree (or am sympathetic) to most of them. However, the contrarian part of me is bugged by the fact that the US gives billions upon billions upon billions to businesses, corporations, rich people,  agribusiness and even churches (last year, thru PPP “loans”) and I don’t see the same level of resentment, consternation, desire from accountability, etc for all those aid dollars. 
This society views help for individuals with much more suspicion and concern than they/we do for all the handouts (many multiples of the amounts being discussed for student loan forgiveness) for organizations which act with no more accountability, prudence, or foresight than your average irresponsible 19-yo.
It’s telling. 

I’m not sure this is true. While perhaps on this board there has been no specific thread about the PPP loans (I honestly don’t recall one way or another), I think for many years people have expressed their dismay about the amount of money given to certain businesses and the multiple special tax breaks for businesses and wealthy individuals.

It is possible to be concerned about both things at the same time.

As for any church accepting PPP loans, while I know it was allowed, from a moral perspective, I don’t think any of them should have accepted aid. My brother is on the parish council of his local Catholic Church and they explicitly chose not to apply for the loans. 

[Happy2BaMom]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

I would not necessarily agree that it is a societal thing. Similar to this thread, myself and the majority of American society does actually feel angry and frustrated about corporate bailouts and corporate welfare being a given status from our govt but the the idea of a penance to individuals or student loan forgiveness is greeted by the same govt as some kind of deplorable pandering to degenerates.

This disparity between what the people think government should do vs what it repeatedly does do is no small factor is people’s disenfranchisement.

People may be frustrated, but I don't hear/see the teeth gnashing / headlines / complaints that I do around individual government assistance, either in the media (including conservative media) or even on this Board (if there have been specific threads  about handouts to organizations, I've missed them, but am open to being corrected). I can't count the number of times I've heard or read "nothing is for free" "the US can't afford xxxx"....but only in reference to bills that potentially help citizens, not organizations.

50 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m not sure this is true. While perhaps on this board there has been no specific thread about the PPP loans (I honestly don’t recall one way or another), I think for many years people have expressed their dismay about the amount of money given to certain businesses and the multiple special tax breaks for businesses and wealthy individuals.

It is possible to be concerned about both things at the same time.

As for any church accepting PPP loans, while I know it was allowed, from a moral perspective, I don’t think any of them should have accepted aid. My brother is on the parish council of his local Catholic Church and they explicitly chose not to apply for the loans. 

Yes, it's possible to be concerned about both things at the same time. But, again, much more noise is generated on government support for individuals.

The Catholic Church received $3 billion in PPP loans in 2020, much of it forgivable. (note: the AP article is critical, here's a Catholic response.....with quite the interesting closing line of "if the government is giving money away, I will take it"). So while your husband's church had qualms about the loans, the Church at large did not.

Again, I've seen/listened to months of headlines / SM posts about student loan forgiveness.....and maybe saw 1/10 of that for the many, many PPP loans that were handed out like candy, many with minimal oversight or tracking.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Happy2BaMom said:

People may be frustrated, but I don't hear/see the teeth gnashing / headlines / complaints that I do around individual government assistance, either in the media (including conservative media) or even on this Board (if there have been specific threads  about handouts to organizations, I've missed them, but am open to being corrected). I can't count the number of times I've heard or read "nothing is for free" "the US can't afford xxxx"....but only in reference to bills that potentially help citizens, not organizations.

Yes, it's possible to be concerned about both things at the same time. But, again, much more noise is generated on government support for individuals.

The Catholic Church received $3 billion in PPP loans in 2020, much of it forgivable. (note: the AP article is critical, here's a Catholic response.....with quite the interesting closing line of "if the government is giving money away, I will take it"). So while your husband's church had qualms about the loans, the Church at large did not.

Again, I've seen/listened to months of headlines / SM posts about student loan forgiveness.....and maybe saw 1/10 of that for the many, many PPP loans that were handed out like candy, many with minimal oversight or tracking.

Maybe it depends on news sources, but I frequently read lots of stuff about issues with corporation taxation and business handouts. Perhaps because I’m a moderate that leans left I see more of this? But without some sort of quantitative assessment, it’s hard to know what is really more prevalent. 
 

I found the Catholic response article you linked disgusting and morally reprehensible, but not surprising. And just a minor correction, it was my brother’s church, not my husband’s. My husband would never ever be a Catholic.

[SKL]

I don't get dismissing individual concerns because there are also corporate concerns.

I used to have a kiddy book called "What if Everyone Did That?"  There are 330M+ people in the USA.  Bailout subsidies that are not narrowly targeted just can't work.

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

People may be frustrated, but I don't hear/see the teeth gnashing / headlines / complaints that I do around individual government assistance, either in the media (including conservative media) or even on this Board (if there have been specific threads  about handouts to organizations, I've missed them, but am open to being corrected). I can't count the number of times I've heard or read "nothing is for free" "the US can't afford xxxx"....but only in reference to bills that potentially help citizens, not organizations.

Yes, it's possible to be concerned about both things at the same time. But, again, much more noise is generated on government support for individuals.

The Catholic Church received $3 billion in PPP loans in 2020, much of it forgivable. (note: the AP article is critical, here's a Catholic response.....with quite the interesting closing line of "if the government is giving money away, I will take it"). So while your husband's church had qualms about the loans, the Church at large did not.

Again, I've seen/listened to months of headlines / SM posts about student loan forgiveness.....and maybe saw 1/10 of that for the many, many PPP loans that were handed out like candy, many with minimal oversight or tracking.

I’m all for over sight and tracking of funds. I think the tone of that particular Catholic response was … blunt but not wrong. Any non profit that wants to continue serving their communities is always constantly looking for grants and interest free loans (free money).  You may have not liked the tone but do you disagree with the actual points?

We can’t say that the preschool (for random example) has .5 million (ha.  That’s never gonna happen) sitting in “assets” bc no one is attending or working and just decide to spend that money elsewhere. That is literally illegal and unethical for us to do. Someone gave that money for that cause or that use and we are required (rightly imo) by law and by canon to use it only for that.

But other needs grew significantly. 2 more food pantries were built and serves triple the number of families previous to covid. Housing, utility and medical assistance also rose sharply and the need was able to be met. Burials were had that people couldn’t have paid for. Christmas presents for kids. And many other things.  Idk about those other dioceses but my dioceses is very transparent. Every parish notes incoming and out going expenses in every Sunday bulletin plus quarterly and an open to the public fiscal report is published yearly.

Seems to me if the PPP loan worked properly, those that received it should be better off financially afterward.  That’s not a failure. That’s a success.

To wrap back to thread topic. If more people seek and finish various forms of higher education bc of loan forgiveness and are more financially solvent afterwards - that’s does not mean they didn’t really need or properly use the loan forgiveness program and shouldn’t have ever been eligible.  Exactly the opposite. It means the program worked.

[Happy2BaMom]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I don't get dismissing individual concerns because there are also corporate concerns.

 

I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but, if so, this has never been my stance.

I was not dismissing individual concerns, I've stated that the inequities in public focus/response bothers me and I also find it telling of a hypocrisy in this country's values. I understand others may/will not agree with me.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[Carrie12345]

8 hours ago, SKL said:

I don't get dismissing individual concerns because there are also corporate concerns.

I used to have a kiddy book called "What if Everyone Did That?"  There are 330M+ people in the USA.  Bailout subsidies that are not narrowly targeted just can't work.

Eh, I don’t think comparing is the same as dismissing.  “If we do this, why can’t we do that?” Is a valid question, even if there’s disagreement about both. (Just ask my kids, lol.)

I see corporate bailouts as “unfair”, even as i recognize the intent to avoid collapses that could shift socio-economic expectations of the country.
I see student loan forgiveness as controversial, but also as a situation that,unaddressed, could absolutely (and currently does, to an extent) shift socio-economic expectations of the country.

it isn’t just for poops and giggles.

[Danae]

14 hours ago, Frances said:

I’m not sure this is true. While perhaps on this board there has been no specific thread about the PPP loans (I honestly don’t recall one way or another), I think for many years people have expressed their dismay about the amount of money given to certain businesses and the multiple special tax breaks for businesses and wealthy individuals.

It is possible to be concerned about both things at the same time.

As for any church accepting PPP loans, while I know it was allowed, from a moral perspective, I don’t think any of them should have accepted aid. My brother is on the parish council of his local Catholic Church and they explicitly chose not to apply for the loans. 

If the choice is between accepting a loan (forgivable or not) designed to keep people employed during the pandemic or lay off the church secretary and janitor I don’t see a moral problem with it.  Assuming the money was in fact used to continue paying salaries.

[SKL]

Yeah and I also don't know why people think there is no accountability for organizations (vs. individuals) receiving tax-funded subsidies.  There are long lists of requirements for qualifying, deploying, and reporting after the fact for each such subsidy.  And substantial penalties for failure to comply.  Compared to the free money given to most families in recent years with no requirement other than to earn less than XX taxable income?  Did any of you have to report to the government how you used that money?

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Yeah and I also don't know why people think there is no accountability for organizations (vs. individuals) receiving tax-funded subsidies.  There are long lists of requirements for qualifying, deploying, and reporting after the fact for each such subsidy.  And substantial penalties for failure to comply.  Compared to the free money given to most families in recent years with no requirement other than to earn less than XX taxable income?  Did any of you have to report to the government how you used that money?

This. And while I prefer targeted accountability for corporations, the rental assistance program is a prime example of how all the requirements and such literally killed it before even got started.  It was a huge failure because of too many strings. 

[shawthorne44]

The worst part of this, What is the most privileged group in America?   College graduates.  

[Carrie12345]

12 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

The worst part of this, What is the most privileged group in America?   College graduates.  

Please.
White, male,college graduates, perhaps.
Try telling that to a black, female kindergarten teacher.

[shawthorne44]

A white male Harvard graduate is likely to get more money than a black, female, kindergarten teacher because that Harvard name on the diploma isn't cheap.   

Student loan forgiveness is a hand-out to everyone with a college loan that is forgiven.  If people feel strongly that black, female, kindergarten teachers should have their college loan forgiven, then those people should find someone like that fits that description and pay off their loan, or even pay it down.  

Edited April 29, 2022 by shawthorne44

[Happy2BaMom]

7 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

The worst part of this, What is the most privileged group in America?   College graduates.  

Privilege is one of those broad terms that gets tossed around but so rarely defined. There are many college graduates who hold jobs that do not require a college degree and/or they work in low-paying social service or public service jobs….do they also automatically get defined as privileged, and, if so, why? Who/what group declares the right to decide who qualifies as privileged?  Is privilege based solely on salary, or access to benefits, or what?
A number of degrees, esp STEM ones, require years and years of hard work, sacrifice and delaying immediate gratification. Is that what makes those graduates privileged, or is it the rewards for that work and sacrifice? 

There have been many efforts made over the years to de-couple access to health care and other social service benefits from a steady-employment-based model, which would help ensure that high school grads are not punished for forgoing higher education.  Those efforts have been routinely shut down by the same people who often describe the college-educated as privileged  

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[Murphy101]

8 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

The worst part of this, What is the most privileged group in America?   College graduates.  

What. Exactly. About graduating college automatically makes someone “privileged”?  And even if that is true, are you saying we should purposely disadvantage people for spending a huge chunk of their young adult years towards attaining an education?

[Happy2BaMom]

12 hours ago, SKL said:

Yeah and I also don't know why people think there is no accountability for organizations (vs. individuals) receiving tax-funded subsidies.  There are long lists of requirements for qualifying, deploying, and reporting after the fact for each such subsidy.  And substantial penalties for failure to comply.  Compared to the free money given to most families in recent years with no requirement other than to earn less than XX taxable income?  Did any of you have to report to the government how you used that money?

There was extensive fraud with the PPP loans (that is just one source, many others are available by a search), farming subsidies are *heavily* concentrated among the few, the rich, and those in particular states (and, in one IRS investigation, more than 170,000 dead farmers collected >$1 billion in farming subsidies over six years, so apparently the “long list of requirements” don’t always work so well). There have been many other documented cases of fraud and abuse with other government subsidies, all readily available online with some general search terms if you care to look, so your view seems to be very rosy as to how handouts to organizations are managed. 

Which, again, doesn’t mean that individual handouts should not be stringently managed, but it sure would be nice if the public shared it’s SM and political outrage equally. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[Murphy101]

17 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

There was extensive fraud with the PPP loans (that is just one source, many others are available by a search), farming subsidies are *heavily* concentrated among the few, the rich, and those in particular states (and, in one IRS investigation, more than 170,000 dead farmers collected >$1 billion in farming subsidies over six years, so apparently the “long list of requirements” don’t always work so well). There have been many other documented cases of fraud and abuse with other government subsidies, all readily available online with some general search terms if you care to look, so your view seems to be very rosy as to how handouts to organizations are managed. 

Which, again, doesn’t mean that individual handouts should not be stringently managed, but it sure would be nice if the public shared it’s SM and political outrage equally. 

It would be nice if you read more then bc the general public is outraged by fraud generally and specifically billion $ fraud of aid money. I don’t know anyone online or in person who isn’t outraged by it. It’s anger inducing and makes people have less and less trust in the republic.  And I think it’s not productive to demand equal outrage. People are always more outraged by the things they perceive as affecting them more personally.  

[Frances]

15 hours ago, Danae said:

If the choice is between accepting a loan (forgivable or not) designed to keep people employed during the pandemic or lay off the church secretary and janitor I don’t see a moral problem with it.  Assuming the money was in fact used to continue paying salaries.

I guess I see it as similar to colleges that don’t accept federal aid in order to keep their independence. Some churches want and have special exemptions from government rules and regulations from all sorts of things ranging from hiring practices to not providing certain birth control as part of health insurance coverage to pandemic regulations to how they educate their young people. I just think they should be consistent. If they don’t want to follow government rules and regulations that other businesses and non-profits have to then they shouldn’t turn around and take free government money. Be like the Amish and actually walk the talk, rather than trying to have your cake and eating it too.

And likely the church secretary and janitor would have received more in unemployment anyway had they been temporarily laid off.

 

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

There was extensive fraud with the PPP loans (that is just one source, many others are available by a search), farming subsidies are *heavily* concentrated among the few, the rich, and those in particular states (and, in one IRS investigation, more than 170,000 dead farmers collected >$1 billion in farming subsidies over six years, so apparently the “long list of requirements” don’t always work so well). There have been many other documented cases of fraud and abuse with other government subsidies, all readily available online with some general search terms if you care to look, so your view seems to be very rosy as to how handouts to organizations are managed. 

Which, again, doesn’t mean that individual handouts should not be stringently managed, but it sure would be nice if the public shared it’s SM and political outrage equally. 

The fact that there are so many records of fraud being discovered, prosecuted, and punished indicates that the public does in fact care about fraud and abuse.

I dunno, I'm not seeing tons of outrage against individuals.  I'm just seeing people saying certain kinds of handouts aren't fair / affordable / necessary / logical.  That there are better ways to meet legitimate needs.

[shawthorne44]

13 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

What. Exactly. About graduating college automatically makes someone “privileged”?  And even if that is true, are you saying we should purposely disadvantage people for spending a huge chunk of their young adult years towards attaining an education?

They earn more money, have better job security, more likely to own their own home, more likely to stay out of jail, more likely to marry and stay that way, I could go on.   

Who said anything about "disadvantage people for spending a huge chunk of their young adult years towards attaining an education?"     How does *not* giving a handout disadvantaging them?   

Taking from the poor to give to the rich shouldn't be a thing.  
 

[Danae]

12 hours ago, Frances said:

I guess I see it as similar to colleges that don’t accept federal aid in order to keep their independence. Some churches want and have special exemptions from government rules and regulations from all sorts of things ranging from hiring practices to not providing certain birth control as part of health insurance coverage to pandemic regulations to how they educate their young people. I just think they should be consistent. If they don’t want to follow government rules and regulations that other businesses and non-profits have to then they shouldn’t turn around and take free government money. Be like the Amish and actually walk the talk, rather than trying to have your cake and eating it too.

And likely the church secretary and janitor would have received more in unemployment anyway had they been temporarily laid off.

 

"Some churches" do thing X so every church has to be consistent with that?  No thank you.  

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Danae said:

"Some churches" do thing X so every church has to be consistent with that?  No thank you.  

Well having been Catholic, I know they do want and use some special religious exemptions.

[Murphy101]

8 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

They earn more money, have better job security, more likely to own their own home, more likely to stay out of jail, more likely to marry and stay that way, I could go on.   

Who said anything about "disadvantage people for spending a huge chunk of their young adult years towards attaining an education?"     How does *not* giving a handout disadvantaging them?   

Taking from the poor to give to the rich shouldn't be a thing.  
 

Wait. What? So let me get this straight. We know that further education tends to raise the odds of better pay, better job security, more likely to attain home ownership and feel secure enough to marry and stay married. All good things we should want for anyone.

So we should NOT make that more likely to happen for more people by making college more affordable and to give loan forgiveness bc that would be making people …. too well off?  So what, we should perpetuate the disadvantage of excessive debt and restrictive costs so that fewer people can have those privileges?  That’s… obtuse at best  

It isn’t taking from the poor to give to the rich. It’s taxes going to make better sources of state revenue and a more stable economy.

[Murphy101]

7 hours ago, Frances said:

Well having been Catholic, I know they do want and use some special religious exemptions.

So what? Any non-profit working within the law to help their agency meet their financial needs is legal. Don’t like it - change the law, donate elsewhere. Whatever. But it doesn’t have much to do with the topic hand. 

And no, it’s doubtful the secretary and janitor would have earned more on unemployment. That’s literally not possible in my state or even most states, even during the pandemic shut downs.

[Murphy101]

I’m still trying to wrap my head around:

Get more education so you can better yourself

Must have debt to do that

Only one place to get that debt from

Do that to get ahead

but if you actually get the education and do perfectly normal things like get married, stay married, don’t go to jail, get a job and pay your bills 

oh hell no, now you are privileged and we can’t have that so let’s keep racking the debt pressure until… what?

no one has options to better their future and everyone is equally living in despair? 

[shawthorne44]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

Wait. What? So let me get this straight. We know that further education tends to raise the odds of better pay, better job security, more likely to attain home ownership and feel secure enough to marry and stay married. All good things we should want for anyone.

So we should NOT make that more likely to happen for more people by making college more affordable and to give loan forgiveness bc that would be making people …. too well off?  So what, we should perpetuate the disadvantage of excessive debt and restrictive costs so that fewer people can have those privileges?  That’s… obtuse at best  

It isn’t taking from the poor to give to the rich. It’s taxes going to make better sources of state revenue and a more stable economy.

 

You have to look at where the money is coming from.  The money will be coming from people who don't have the degree and don't have the advantages that the degree gives.  

The core problem is the college loans handed out like Halloween candy.   Colleges will charge what people will pay and those loans mean that people have the money to pay for them.   If people didn't pay, they'd be forced to lower their prices.  

This was the first article on the google search that was more than a year old (so before this silly idea was news)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zengernews/2020/08/31/college-tuition-is-rising-at-twice-the-inflation-rate-while-students-learn-at-home/?sh=324f583a2f98

"The average cost of attending a four-year college or university in the United States rose by 497% between the 1985-86 and 2017-18 academic years, more than twice the rate of inflation.

The cost of attending a traditional four-year university has been rising more than twice as fast as inflation, and two-year community colleges a third faster.

Few students will be on campus this fall, as online Zoom rooms are already replacing classrooms. The tuition bills, though, haven’t stopped coming.

Bachelor’s degrees cost an average of $5,504 per year to pursue in 1985, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, a subagency of the U.S. Department of Education. In 2017 it was $27,357.

The price at two-year schools jumped from $3,367 a year to $10,704, roughly a 320% hike, according to the center."

 

 

 

 

 

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

So what? Any non-profit working within the law to help their agency meet their financial needs is legal. Don’t like it - change the law, donate elsewhere. Whatever. But it doesn’t have much to do with the topic hand. 

And no, it’s doubtful the secretary and janitor would have earned more on unemployment. That’s literally not possible in my state or even most states, even during the pandemic shut downs.

I did not say it was illegal or even should be illegal for churches to use PPP loans. I said in my view it was wrong for them to do so if they want to keep their independence and special religious exemptions. Some churches also have significant financial holdings, despite being non-profits. And while this definitely is outside the scope of this topic, the Catholic Church has often ridden the line between legal and ethical/moral when it comes to shielding assets from legal settlements. So no, in most cases I don’t think they should have been applying for government aid, but rather relying on their own assets and parishioner’s donations. But of course it was perfectly legal for them to do so. 

And I didn’t bring up the topic, someone else said we were only worried about individuals who might get loan forgiveness and not all of the various types of aid to businesses and non-profits, such as the PPP loans.

And in my state, most lower income people getting unemployment during the pandemic did make more than when they were working, due to the combination of relatively generous state unemployment benefits plus the extra federal payments. I realize that may not be true everywhere.

[Carrie12345]

18 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

Taking from the poor to give to the rich shouldn't be a thing.  

I don’t know what lets you think that all/most/many current college debt holders are rich. Like, you really think any of us are arguing to help rich people??? Weird.

Or that non-college grads are mostly poor, for that matter.

We, as a society, have mucked everything up. Not fixing it will (and does) threaten our actual needs. We need college graduates and we need people in non-degreed positions. But we’re blocking BOTH from what has always been considered a perfectly normal/average/standard/expected American life where work=reward.

It took 20 years for my degreed spouse to hit “rich”. And by that, I mean an average sized house, halfway decent health insurance, reliable transportation (for the most part), a retirement plan that might see us through death, and I no longer *have to limit my grocery budget, unless we decide to save for a real vacation someday. That’s the “rich” of today; simply not fearing tomorrow.

[Happy2BaMom]

12 hours ago, Frances said:

And I didn’t bring up the topic, someone else said we were only worried about individuals who might get loan forgiveness and not all of the various types of aid to businesses and non-profits, such as the PPP loans.

 

No, that isn't what I said.

[Happy2BaMom]

On 4/29/2022 at 11:51 PM, SKL said:

The fact that there are so many records of fraud being discovered, prosecuted, and punished indicates that the public does in fact care about fraud and abuse.

I dunno, I'm not seeing tons of outrage against individuals.  I'm just seeing people saying certain kinds of handouts aren't fair / affordable / necessary / logical.  That there are better ways to meet legitimate needs.

How many members of the general public read any of those articles? Which, BTW, were not written by members of the general public, but by journalists at "lame-stream media" and various think tanks. I keep getting assurances of how outraged the general public about other types of abuse but no one seems to have any links.

For the record, let me repost what I originally said:

"I understand the various viewpoints and deep thinking that many here are expressing and I agree (or am sympathetic) to most of them. However, the contrarian part of me is bugged by the fact that the US gives billions upon billions upon billions to businesses, corporations, rich people,  agribusiness and even churches (last year, thru PPP “loans”) and I don’t see the same level of resentment, consternation, desire from accountability, etc for all those aid dollars. 

This society views help for individuals with much more suspicion and concern than they/we do for all the handouts (many multiples of the amounts being discussed for student loan forgiveness) for organizations which act with no more accountability, prudence, or foresight than your average irresponsible 19-yo."

I've never once stated that we should't be concerned about aid to individuals and I've clarified that a couple of times. I'm not sure at this point if the straw-man-ing is intentional or just a result of different mental filters.

 

 

[Happy2BaMom]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:58 PM, Murphy101 said:

It would be nice if you read more then bc the general public is outraged by fraud generally and specifically billion $ fraud of aid money. I don’t know anyone online or in person who isn’t outraged by it. It’s anger inducing and makes people have less and less trust in the republic.  And I think it’s not productive to demand equal outrage. People are always more outraged by the things they perceive as affecting them more personally.  

The most honest thing I can say is that you have no idea what I read. Although the fact that I've posted multiple sources from an extremely wide range of sources is a pretty good indication or my reading habits. I'm pretty sure I've posted more sources from more places than just about anyone on this thread - so I'm not sure why you think I need to read more.

My OP was about what I perceive as an important difference in *values* in how this society views aid. I've provided many sources to try and illustrate why I hold that opinion. I've stated that I recognize that I recognize and agree with many of others' viewpoints that have been expressed and that I recognize that others will disagree with my position. I've stated I'm not claiming that we shouldn't be concerned about individual aid. Why none of those things seem to have been read, I don't know, but it's probably just one more data point that US bias toward corporate support is generally unrecognized.

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[SKL]

On 5/1/2022 at 10:47 AM, Happy2BaMom said:

 I'm not sure at this point if the straw-man-ing is intentional or just a result of different mental filters.

I'm also not sure what was the motive behind bringing up corporate subsidies in a conversation that had nothing to do with that.  You even said that was the "contrarian part" of you speaking, and yet now you are accusing others of manipulation.

Why not start a separate thread about why everyone should be outraged by organization-level subsidies?  It's actually a popular stand-alone topic here, as you can easily discover.

Personally I'm over the whole outrage culture.  It accomplishes little IMO, other than negative health and social impacts.  I do believe in government including logic, fairness, and accountability in subsidy policy.

[mom2scouts]

On 4/29/2022 at 7:46 AM, Danae said:

If the choice is between accepting a loan (forgivable or not) designed to keep people employed during the pandemic or lay off the church secretary and janitor I don’t see a moral problem with it.  Assuming the money was in fact used to continue paying salaries.

My church applied for a PPP loan in order to keep staff and pastors employed at a time when the church was closed. When they realized that church members were faithfully paying tithes online throughout the pandemic, the church board decided to return all of the PPP loan. They had the income to pay salaries and felt it would be unethical to keep the money for other purposes.

[ktgrok]

Saw this a while ago, realized I was surprised not to have heard more from this perspective. https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2021/01/04/student-loan-debt-forgiveness-christian-bible-239519

[shawthorne44]

That would be an argument for paying off someone else's college debt.   
Not for reaching into someone else's wallet.  

[SKL]

Yeah I've already paid off a number of other people's debt.  After paying off all of mine, and while planning for the fact that my own kids will never qualify for financial aid.  I still don't think it's good government policy to cancel legal contracts made by adults with enough intelligence to go to college.

[Murphy101]

42 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

That would be an argument for paying off someone else's college debt.   
Not for reaching into someone else's wallet.  

It’s called taxes. And none of us are avoiding taxes (legally anyways) so let’s not pretend that as individuals “someone” is stealing from our personal wallet. It’s taxes. We all pay them. There’s nothing personal about it. It’s all OUR taxes not “someone’s wallet”.  The question is what do we want done with the taxes that are collected? Personally while there’s plenty about where our taxes go that I may strongly disagree with, I just can’t get twisted about our taxes making education more affordable or even debt free.