Daylight saving time permanent

[ScoutTN]

The late summer evenings don’t bother me at all. But I do dislike getting up in the dark. Light makes it so much easier. I do love sitting in the sun in the morning, either outdoors or indoors by a window, to read and have my coffee.

I just love summer when the days are long. I detest the short, often gray, daylight hours of winter. No time shift will fix that. I just need to go to south FL for January and February! 

[MagistraKennedy]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:26 PM, ScoutTN said:

Because older kids have to have time for after school activities, especially sports practices.

I thought I'd read that the rationale was that if older kids start earlier, they get out and get home before the smaller kids -- in other words, they're at home to look after siblings?

That's another benefit to homeschooling --- my kids would not be functional before 9am.  

[fairfarmhand]

On 3/17/2022 at 7:52 PM, ScoutTN said:

The late summer evenings don’t bother me at all. But I do dislike getting up in the dark. Light makes it so much easier. I do love sitting in the sun in the morning, either outdoors or indoors by a window, to read and have my coffee.

I just love summer when the days are long. I detest the short, often gray, daylight hours of winter. No time shift will fix that. I just need to go to south FL for January and February! 

I lived in fl for years and the only time is miss it is in January and February 

[Frances]

34 minutes ago, MagistraKennedy said:

I thought I'd read that the rationale was that if older kids start earlier, they get out and get home before the smaller kids -- in other words, they're at home to look after siblings?

That's another benefit to homeschooling --- my kids would not be functional before 9am.  

I think the reasons for going  against research prove best practices for high school start times (sadly a very common occurrence for many things in public education) varies from place to place. For instance, some places need their busses to make multiple runs, so all schools can’t start at the same time. Others want teens to be able to start after school jobs relatively early in the day.

[shawthorne44]

I want there to be no changing.  Staying on DST seems a bit asinine because of international.   But I'd be willing to tolerate it as long as we didn't change.  

I don't understand any of the school based arguments.   It isn't mandated that schools start by X time.   If it is dark when school starts, the local district can make the school start later.   

A few years ago Texas almost got rid of it.   If Texas or any of the other top 3-4 states had gotten rid of it, the nation would have soon followed.    It has the votes promised in both houses.  Then someone got up and said, "Do we want Texans to have to decide between church or football?"   That killed it and it failed.    Which was ridiculous.   Churches aren't dumb.   They would have instituted Football Fellowship with the game being recorded and then football fans gathering to watch the game and non-football fans would be idle hands.  Me, I'd rather paint a wall than watch football.   

A school could also use a staggered start/end time to help a bit with the crowds coming and going.  Once kids reached the age where they went to classes rather than staying put, they could have half the kids start early and the other half starting a period later.   Kids that were bussed would be put in the group that worked with the school schedule.   Kids that weren't would have a choice, with kids that walked having preference for the later start.   Kids in after-school stuff could have a preference for the earlier times.   I remember when I was in High School the reason for the ridiculous early start time was so that football could practice and be done before dark.    

Edited March 20, 2022 by shawthorne44

[kristin0713]

DST is killing me this year. I'm still not adjusted. Maybe I'm just getting old. 

[MagistraKennedy]

32 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

DST is killing me this year. I'm still not adjusted. Maybe I'm just getting old. 

Amazingly, I'm not having issues this spring. It usually wipes me out. Sending you hugs. 

[Faith-manor]

When we lived in Danville, Indiana I very much appreciated the standard time permanence, no changing. My circadian rhythm was happier.

[bolt.]

I guess I've always understood that there are places in the world where none of the ordinary daytime activities happen in the dark mornings and evenings of the winter months... but do people really think it would be that hard? The kids wait for the school bus under a street light.

[Mom_to3]

There are parts of the world where it's dark for much of winter. Kids are able to get to school!

[Pawz4me]

I don’t understand why the school issue is being harped on. The problems with permanent DST are way more than that. Go back and read some of the links posted earlier in this thread. There are major long term societal health issues with DST that wouldn’t be a problem with permanent standard time. 

[Lisa]

I struggle with SAD and with the cold here in MN, its just so hard. I also tend to be a night owl. I feel so much better in the Spring with the time change. I would much rather have light out later than in the morning.  

[Clarita]

I'm on team I don't care as long as we don't keep changing. It's hard on those of us with friends, families and colleagues (my husband) in other countries. Yes, it's easy math but it's a complication in life that I don't need. 

[Bootsie]

5 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I don’t understand why the school issue is being harped on. The problems with permanent DST are way more than that. Go back and read some of the links posted earlier in this thread. There are major long term societal health issues with DST that wouldn’t be a problem with permanent standard time. 

The articles seem to point to problems of people waking before the sun rises.  I can think of no logical reason why it is bad for societal health whether we call it 3:00am, 11:00am, or 6 apples.  The DST designation only impacts what we CALL the time at which the sun rises.  It does not dictate what time people rise or what time schools start.   

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, Lisa said:

I struggle with SAD and with the cold here in MN, its just so hard. I also tend to be a night owl. I feel so much better in the Spring with the time change. I would much rather have light out later than in the morning.  

interesting - most people with SAD respond best to light treatment in the morning, and light in the evening is linked to insomnia - one of the symptoms of SAD. Are you sure it isn't just loner days in general that make you feel better?

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

The articles seem to point to problems of people waking before the sun rises.  I can think of no logical reason why it is bad for societal health whether we call it 3:00am, 11:00am, or 6 apples.  The DST designation only impacts what we CALL the time at which the sun rises.  It does not dictate what time people rise or what time schools start.   

Because it is a lot easier to change what we call the time than to have all the businesses and schools and shops all change their schedules. 

[Pawz4me]

9 hours ago, Bootsie said:

The articles seem to point to problems of people waking before the sun rises.  I can think of no logical reason why it is bad for societal health whether we call it 3:00am, 11:00am, or 6 apples.  The DST designation only impacts what we CALL the time at which the sun rises.  It does not dictate what time people rise or what time schools start.   

From everything I've read our bodies are much more attuned to the sun than many want to believe, and not just at sunrise or sunset. Our circadian rhythm is a 24 hour cycle, and what happens in the middle (noon/midday or whatever you want to call it--the time when our bodies think the sun should be directly overhead) matters every bit as much to that rhythm as when the sun rises and sets. That's why standard time is called . . standard. It's the time that best aligns our body clocks, our circadian rhythm, with sun time. Morning, noon and night.

ETA: While I'm arguing for permanent standard time in this thread because it's clearly the one that makes the most sense for our circadian rhythms, I suspect we're all so messed up from artificial light and blue light/screens that we're already on the way toward evolutionary change in that regard. I'm all for keeping either one permanent instead of having to change twice a year.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Pawz4me

[Clemsondana]

15 hours ago, bolt. said:

I guess I've always understood that there are places in the world where none of the ordinary daytime activities happen in the dark mornings and evenings of the winter months... but do people really think it would be that hard? The kids wait for the school bus under a street light.

People adapt to whatever they have to adapt to so if kids have to go to school in the dark they do.  But, for much of the country it's not as simple as 'wait under a streetlight'.  I've lived most of my life, in multiple states, in places that don't have sidewalks.  In one neighborhood the walk to the bus stop would have been nearly a mile, walking on the side of the road.  In my childhood neighborhood where I did take the bus, my walk happened to be a few hundred yards because I lived near the main street but other kids walked 1/2 mile.  There were scattered streetlights but we were sharing the road with people driving to work who likely couldn't see us particularly well during the dark months.  Our current house is on a country road that is winding and goes from 2 to 1.5 lanes.  Kids walk along the edge of the road or in people's yards to get to the designated streetlight.  Obviously it usually works out fine - I do remember one teen killed while walking to the busstop, but that's across multiple states - but it's always a worry for parents.  When I lived in a planned community with sidewalks, it was easy to walk at any time, day or night, and know that you didn't have to worry about cars coming around a curve and not seeing you.  These aren't unsolvable problems, but they are issues that people are currently dealing with that, instead of lasting a month or so right before/after the time change, will last for months at a time so they'll be a concern for more of the year.  

[teachermom2834]

Right now I’m pretty happy about it but I figure I will find things I don’t like about it once it is permanent. I’ve really never given it that much thought other than having increasing difficulty with the changing clock as I get older and I really don’t like the early sunset. I guess I am not a night person. So night coming earlier is hard on me. Darkness to me means I want to be in my pajamas and not leaving the house. So if someone needs me to run an errand at 5:30 and it’s already dark that is really hard for me. I don’t know why but I’m not the kind of person happy you make a Target run at 9:00 pm anytime of the year. I’m a homebody and once I’m in at night I’m in. So night coming earlier makes that harder I think.

Always having homeschooled the dark morning has never been an issue for us so I probably don’t fully appreciate that. Where I live we frequently have schools delayed a couple hours in the morning during winter for snow or ice to melt. I guess that would be another hour delay even later. I will say it is extremely dark on our street in the morning and I always did worry for the kids out waiting at the bus stops even though they weren’t mine. It is just much harder to see them than they realize. But it is also hard to see them at night when they are out playing and walking around and there is alot of that still at 6:00 pm. 
 

 

[shawthorne44]

12 hours ago, Clarita said:

I'm on team I don't care as long as we don't keep changing. It's hard on those of us with friends, families and colleagues (my husband) in other countries. Yes, it's easy math but it's a complication in life that I don't need. 

I always felt so ignorant when I had to add an "-ish" to the time difference between where I lived and some other country.   But, with DST, it might be 12 or it might be 13.   

[shawthorne44]

9 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Because it is a lot easier to change what we call the time than to have all the businesses and schools and shops all change their schedules. 

Businesses, shops and schools change their schedules all the time.  Schools change their schedules based on parent desires and bussing.     Shops set their hours based on when people want to shop and when they can get employees.   Places where people shop for gifts have extended hours during the Christmas shopping season.   There is no reason for places to all change their schedules on a certain day.  

I have a really strong internal clock.   I can tell myself to say wake up at 3 am for a flight, and I wake up at 3 am.  So I get a bit of jet-lag every time change.   The jet lag cure of exposing myself to sun doesn't work since the sun agrees with my body and not the clocks.  That has been a nice benefit of WFH.    I just internally ignore the time change and slowly drift into it.  
 

Edited March 21, 2022 by shawthorne44

[Pawz4me]

This is what I don't get about the "change the clocks to permanent DST and change school and business hours" position --

If we stay on permanent DST the (supposed) benefit of that is more sunlight in the late afternoon. But if we change school and business hours to compensate for the increased morning darkness, pushing everything back an hour -- then aren't we essentially right back where we started? Won't most people be working or in school (inside) for the extra hour of sunlight? Sure some will get a little benefit through windows, but many people work in windowless places or are in classrooms without windows. If I work an 8-5 job now and it becomes 9-6 due to DST then for a large chunk of the year I'm still going to be going to work and coming home on the edge of darkness, and because of the later release times kids would have no net gain of afternoon sunlight. So . . . why? It seems a big change for very little benefit, but perhaps I'm not understanding something?

[fairfarmhand]

2 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

 

 

2 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

Right now I’m pretty happy about it but I figure I will find things I don’t like about it once it is permanent. I’ve really never given it that much thought other than having increasing difficulty with the changing clock as I get older and I really don’t like the early sunset. I guess I am not a night person. So night coming earlier is hard on me. Darkness to me means I want to be in my pajamas and not leaving the house. So if someone needs me to run an errand at 5:30 and it’s already dark that is really hard for me. I don’t know why but I’m not the kind of person happy you make a Target run at 9:00 pm anytime of the year. I’m a homebody and once I’m in at night I’m in. So night coming earlier makes that harder I think.

Me too. When it gets dark so early, I want to go to bed at 7 pm

 

(Sorry, @Clemsondanadidn't mean to quote you and it won't let me delete the box.)

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

From everything I've read our bodies are much more attuned to the sun than many want to believe, and not just at sunrise or sunset. Our circadian rhythm is a 24 hour cycle, and what happens in the middle (noon/midday or whatever you want to call it--the time when our bodies think the sun should be directly overhead) matters every bit as much to that rhythm as when the sun rises and sets. That's why standard time is called . . standard. It's the time that best aligns our body clocks, our circadian rhythm, with sun time. Morning, noon and night.

ETA: While I'm arguing for permanent standard time in this thread because it's clearly the one that makes the most sense for our circadian rhythms, I suspect we're all so messed up from artificial light and blue light/screens that we're already on the way toward evolutionary change in that regard. I'm all for keeping either one permanent instead of having to change twice a year.

But the sun is not directly overhead in all locations when the clock's hands are at 12:00 in all locations when standard time is used.  

And, standard time with our current time zones is a recent phenomenon.  We are not biologically wired to think that two hands of a clock are supposed to point to the number 12 when the sun is directly overhead.  That is a cultural phenomenon.  We may be wired to wake when the sun rises and and sleep when the sun fall.  But that does not mean the half-way mark for that has to have a particular man-made time stamp.  

Also, I am not convinced that we are all wired for this particular rhythm, and I do not think that is because of modern culture.  In ancient times many travelled by night, navigating by the stars.  Shepherds watched the flocks at night.  Nightwatchmen guarded the cities.  Archealogical sites in Greece reveal remnants of an active nightlife.  There are cultures that practice a siesta during the middle of the day, and are up much later at night, and these practices predate artificial light and screens; there are areas of the world where if you show up for lunch at what noon--you will be waiting two or three hours until lunch time.  

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

Right now I’m pretty happy about it but I figure I will find things I don’t like about it once it is permanent. I’ve really never given it that much thought other than having increasing difficulty with the changing clock as I get older and I really don’t like the early sunset. I guess I am not a night person. So night coming earlier is hard on me. Darkness to me means I want to be in my pajamas and not leaving the house. So if someone needs me to run an errand at 5:30 and it’s already dark that is really hard for me. I don’t know why but I’m not the kind of person happy you make a Target run at 9:00 pm anytime of the year. I’m a homebody and once I’m in at night I’m in. So night coming earlier makes that harder I think.

Always having homeschooled the dark morning has never been an issue for us so I probably don’t fully appreciate that. Where I live we frequently have schools delayed a couple hours in the morning during winter for snow or ice to melt. I guess that would be another hour delay even later. I will say it is extremely dark on our street in the morning and I always did worry for the kids out waiting at the bus stops even though they weren’t mine. It is just much harder to see them than they realize. But it is also hard to see them at night when they are out playing and walking around and there is alot of that still at 6:00 pm. 
 

 

I don't get why we think kids should have to walk to school in the dark - which is obviously more dangerous for several reasons, so that adults can enjoy more sunshine after they get off work. But "who cares about kids" has been the refrain the last few years so I shouldn't be surprised that congress is thinking this way. Their after work golf game is obviously the more important factor. 

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

 

If we stay on permanent DST the (supposed) benefit of that is more sunlight in the late afternoon. But if we change school and business hours to compensate for the increased morning darkness, pushing everything back an hour -- then aren't we essentially right back where we started?

Exactly! AND we'd be out of sync with most places int eh world, right?

Permanent standard time makes WAY more sense, medically and practically. People can get up earlier if they want to garden before work, but most of us can't just choose to sleep later due to business hours, etc. We can't set our own work hours/school hours. But we CAN get up earlier. 

[shawthorne44]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

This is what I don't get about the "change the clocks to permanent DST and change school and business hours" position --

 

The two aren't really tied together.   The "change school and business hours" position is an argument against the complaints that eliminating time changes doesn't work for them.  

Changing the clocks to permanent DST is silly and I haven't heard a good argument for it beyond, it means we won't change twice a year.  

 

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

And, standard time with our current time zones is a recent phenomenon.  We are not biologically wired to think that two hands of a clock are supposed to point to the number 12 when the sun is directly overhead. 

 

The reverse is true.     Time was defined by the sun with Noon being when the sun was directly overhead.   Then clocks got better and kept accurate longer, but still noon was still when the sun was overhead-ish.    Time zones started with the railroads.   At first, every railroad stop was on its own local time with noon being overhead-ish.    But for the first time, people travelled fast enough to notice the discrepancy.     That made havoc with the train schedules, so they made time zones.  
 

 

[shawthorne44]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

This is what I don't get about the "change the clocks to permanent DST and change school and business hours" position --

 

The two aren't really tied together.   The "change school and business hours" position is an argument against the complaints that eliminating time changes doesn't work for them.  

Changing the clocks to permanent DST is silly and I haven't heard a good argument for it beyond, it means we won't change twice a year.  

 

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

And, standard time with our current time zones is a recent phenomenon.  We are not biologically wired to think that two hands of a clock are supposed to point to the number 12 when the sun is directly overhead. 

 

The reverse is true.     Time was defined by the sun with Noon being when the sun was directly overhead.   Then clocks got better and kept accurate longer, but still noon was still when the sun was overhead-ish.    Time zones started with the railroads.   At first, every railroad stop was on its own local time with noon being overhead-ish.    But for the first time, people travelled fast enough to notice the discrepancy.     That made havoc with the train schedules, so they made time zones.  
 

ETA: Funny time story my dad told me about the small town he grew up in.   There was a large factory and a small downtown with one store with lots of clocks.   The factory had a loud alarm noise at the end of every shift that could be heard downtown.   The store's clocks always agreed with the factory.    So even though people complained that they didn't think the time was accurate they were poo-poo'ed.    Everyone in town used the store as the town's official time.   Then someone proved that the time was over 20 minutes off and looked into it.    All this time, the store owner was setting its clock by the factory alarm and the factory was setting its clock by the store.  
 

 

 

[KungFuPanda]

15 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

From everything I've read our bodies are much more attuned to the sun than many want to believe, and not just at sunrise or sunset. Our circadian rhythm is a 24 hour cycle, and what happens in the middle (noon/midday or whatever you want to call it--the time when our bodies think the sun should be directly overhead) matters every bit as much to that rhythm as when the sun rises and sets. That's why standard time is called . . standard. It's the time that best aligns our body clocks, our circadian rhythm, with sun time. Morning, noon and night.

ETA: While I'm arguing for permanent standard time in this thread because it's clearly the one that makes the most sense for our circadian rhythms, I suspect we're all so messed up from artificial light and blue light/screens that we're already on the way toward evolutionary change in that regard. I'm all for keeping either one permanent instead of having to change twice a year.

I’m interested to know how the shift of the clocks by an hour compares to the affect of everyone staring at a screen for as many hours as we do. Could we negate the time change difference by turning off out devices an hour sooner? Two hours? I have no clue, but I doubt if it’s as simple as Standard Time Works Best for Everyone. I live with a man who has never had a 24 hour clock and was a night owl as an infant in a house full of normal human beings who slept all night. I know people who spend most of their days inside no matter the season. That can’t be great for natural rhythms either. Kids are already going to school in the dark, so that doesn’t really change.  Our school district seems to be moving to later start times anyway, so I guess that’s one way people will get around it. 

I realize I’m rambling, but it seems like the time change is the least of the things we do to sabotage our sleep. I’m sure we’ll hear reports of someone who was harmed by it, but we’ll never get reports from people who were safer coming home in the evening, so how would we know. I’ve been WANTING permanent DST for years, but was kind of surprised by the recent legislation. I didn’t even know it was a consideration.