x-post Christians, Christian Nationalism, and Covid response

[kbutton]

Christianity Today featured an article about white evangelical behavior during the pandemic, how it affected the death rates, and what correlation is has to conservatism in general. 

https://www.christianitytoday.com/better-samaritan/2022/february/will-they-know-christians-by-their-love-or-reckless-obsessi.html?utm_source=CT+Weekly+Newsletter&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=490693&utm_content=8501&utm_campaign=email

All of the political stuff is mentioned in relationship to the data. It discusses specific behaviors, but it also makes recommendations for Christians to consider reprioritizing. 

If people want to discuss the conclusions of the article in a non-political way, I'm game. For many of us, it has devastated our social and church relationships. 

This was linked in the article, and I will try to work my way through it as well: How Culture Wars Delay Herd Immunity: Christian Nationalism and Anti-vaccine Attitudes

 

[scholastica]

I’m game. I agree wholeheartedly with their conclusions. Christians really need to remember their first allegiance is to God. Our citizenship is in the City of God not the City of Man. So many people today seem to put their political identity first and faith second which is completely backwards. I’m Roman Catholic and that means that if I ascribe to all of the social teaching of the Church, neither party gets my allegiance, nor do I blindly follow along. I have to evaluate each new concept on light of what I know to be true.  I have to be careful not to take this or that person’s opinion on one thing, just because we agree on another. Belonging and group identity are such strong needs, though. It can feel exhausting to not really have that, but my dh and I are on the same page, so we have our own small unit. We often feel like our own little island.  I cannot imagine what it would be like to disagree with my spouse. Our small group though decided the way through this was love and, although we disagree, we are still a tight small group. We respect that we know each other to be thoughtful, intelligent, loving, faithful people who are all doing the best they can. They extended a lot of grace to us to not meet in person when they were feeling comfortable and we were not. We respect that they have the right to choose not to be vaccinated, even though we have chosen it and obviously think they should. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by scholastica
Clarity

[scholastica]

double post

Edited February 19, 2022 by scholastica

[Terabith]

It reminds me of how early in Christendom, people came to Christianity because of the witness of how Christians behaved when there was a plague, caring for plague victims and lowering the death rate.  

[thewellerman]

I am struggling with this, too.  I just typed a long post, but decided I was uncomfortable sharing that much personal information.  Just wanted to offer the encouragement that I am also frustrated and lonely and a little lost, but hoping that there are actually more of us out there than we know.  

[Faith-manor]

One of the things I have noticed locally is when looking at photos on Facebook of churches, those that have an American flag flying on the property or on a stand in the sanctuary seem to be the ones who are vocally against covid protocols and behaving in irresponsible ways. Those that do not have a flag seem to be more covid conscious. I think that says something powerful.

I was, until September 2022, on a list of substitute pianist/keyboardists for numerous churches in the area. UMCs, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopal, Wesleyan, Free Methodist, Church of Christ, and a couple of Independents. Though deconverted from the Christian faith, I still love hymns and meditations, psalms, and other aspects so it was nice to continue playing on call. But, when some of the former covid conscious ones gave up after summer, I wasn't willing to continue. And to be fair to worship planners, since I would not play when cases were high, they had big chance of "No" when they called which was discouraging for them. So I ended it. My hope, my big hope, is when we move to the Huntsville area, the UU which seems to be a super conscientious and loving congregation with a choir might be looking for an accompanist.

Ultimately what I see on social media is that covid conscious folks feel very disenfranchised here by their churches these days. Some have become anti hierarchy due to leadership behavior and are leaving organized Christianity all together, some are commuting outside the area to churches where they feel comfortable, some are forming simple worship groups who meet masked and distanced with a strict do not come sick policy and limiting their numbers in order to have Bible study, prayer, and recorded or instrumental only hymns. According to a local survey of the county ministerial committee, church attendance in person and online has dropped nearly 50% in 2022. It is very hard to say if it will come back up. There are numerous smaller churches reported to be in deep trouble and likely to close.

So my area as a general whole seems to mirror the issues in the article.

[kbutton]

24 minutes ago, scholastica said:

I cannot imagine what it would be like to disagree with my spouse.

Oh my goodness, yes!

25 minutes ago, scholastica said:

We respect that we know each other to be thoughtful, intelligent, loving, faithful people who are all doing the best they can.

IDK. We have some of those, and we could probably talk to some of them, but they conversation has not happened at all on a group level. There is no conversation about the best way forward. When I ask people who are attending what it's like, they say that it's very weird because no one really talks about it outside of sometimes a prayer request for someone with Covid. It's like it's not even real.

We have not been missed hardly at all. Why would we conform if we don't really belong? 

People are not as thoughtful as I gave them credit for. They behave as though the lies don't matter or aren't why people aren't coming back, but it's starting to come out that attendance has seriously dwindled. The lies cut both ways--they think their Covid precautions specifically have been the dividing line, but it's not really. People ignored their rules. I think a bunch left that wanted to peddle their conspiracies with support, and people like us left because the rest have their heads in the sand. There was a point at which they could've chosen, especially as a very large church for our area, to say, "Well, we're losing people for a variety of reasons. For those still at home (or possibly gone), is there something we need to discuss?" I would've gladly pointed out that leaving Covid precautions posted online that virtually no one follows is deceitful. I would note that every time we checked out an activity that was billed as Covid-safe, we found out that people were blatantly ignoring the rules. And then I would've pointed out that leaving this unaddressed was clearly showing approval to one group and not the other.

If you ride a fence, you get a very big, splintery wedgy. They opted for the splintery wedgy.

I do know some people with reasonable views that I don't share--they have opted to not mask post-vaccine unless required. I don't have a beef with them even if I think that's not the best policy. However, they think that the people making different decisions are doing so based on good information even when I can show from FB posts that they are drawn to the lies. 

I just really can't do the lies. Not when it kills people as this article shows. Not when people who claim to be pro-life knowingly use abortion-related  slogans to defend their position. 

Part of this is that there is a culture of not wanting to know about or address other issues too, not just Covid. 

[Terabith]

Our ELCA church has been meeting outdoors since June of 2020.  There have been a handful of times church got called off or moved indoors (with absolutely no exceptions masks required and social distancing heavily encouraged) because of heavy rain or frigid temperatures, but we hold church in the parking lot with heaters set up, and people are welcome to sit in their cars, and we have a sound system so that you can tune your car radio to hear on a hyper local station, even though only a handful of folks do that.  Most people sit in the parking lot in folding chairs.  I actually find it far more unpleasant in summer than in winter.  

I really really hate that it's moved from 5:30 pm to 9 am, though.  

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

Our ELCA church has been meeting outdoors since June of 2020.  There have been a handful of times church got called off or moved indoors (with absolutely no exceptions masks required and social distancing heavily encouraged) because of heavy rain or frigid temperatures, but we hold church in the parking lot with heaters set up, and people are welcome to sit in their cars, and we have a sound system so that you can tune your car radio to hear on a hyper local station, even though only a handful of folks do that.  Most people sit in the parking lot in folding chairs.  I actually find it far more unpleasant in summer than in winter.  

I really really hate that it's moved from 5:30 pm to 9 am, though.  

Our church totally had the capability of meeting outdoors for several months of the year and never bothered. They might've needed a tent for shade, but they could've afforded it. The youth did, but unmasked, and at the time, no one was sure if outdoor was good enough without masks (they "required" masks, but literally no one wore them). Our church built an outdoor, open-sided pavilion during the pandemic so that they can be hospitable to parents of sports teams that use their grounds, but other than a fish fry and a craft fair, they haven't done services out there. It's crazy! 

It's just the idea that people will leave in a huff over rules no one follows, and some people won't come at all because of the rule-breakers, and they are completely uninterested in fixing it. They have two services. They could've had a masked service followed by a mask-optional service. No attempt. 

I feel like mid-westerners avoid uncomfortable conversations like the plague. I don't do pretend. We're incompatible. 🤣

Our "fun" homeschool co-op stopped meeting during the pandemic, and I think it's because they know that hashing out how to meet would break it to pieces. At least they opted to not take sides, lol! But they would rather avoid than discuss as well. 

[kbutton]

I haven't gotten through the second article that's more scholarly, but this was interesting to me:

Quote

Our findings reveal that Christian nationalism is the second strongest predictor of general anti-vaxx attitudes (only behind identifying as black), even when accounting for traditional measures of religious commitment or political conservatism. Christian nationalism strongly predicts Americans’
skepticism toward the trustworthiness of doctors and pharmaceutical companies, an elevated assessment of the risks involved, misinformation about the link between vaccines and autism, and belief in parents’ ultimate authority to withhold vaccines from their children.

I bet many of the people in our old church would not even know that they fit the profile for Christian nationalism, but our pastor espouses this publicly. I don't know how much he's said it since we stopped doing online services, but we caught him saying so twice before that. 

My Christian alma mater used to teach (indirectly) against Christian nationalism while trying to ride a fine line between political engagement and realizing "this world is not my home." Now they are bastions of Christian nationalism, and the vaccination rate on campus is estimated to be very low.

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Oh my goodness, yes!

IDK. We have some of those, and we could probably talk to some of them, but they conversation has not happened at all on a group level. There is no conversation about the best way forward. When I ask people who are attending what it's like, they say that it's very weird because no one really talks about it outside of sometimes a prayer request for someone with Covid. It's like it's not even real.

We have not been missed hardly at all. Why would we conform if we don't really belong? 

People are not as thoughtful as I gave them credit for. They behave as though the lies don't matter or aren't why people aren't coming back, but it's starting to come out that attendance has seriously dwindled. The lies cut both ways--they think their Covid precautions specifically have been the dividing line, but it's not really. People ignored their rules. I think a bunch left that wanted to peddle their conspiracies with support, and people like us left because the rest have their heads in the sand. There was a point at which they could've chosen, especially as a very large church for our area, to say, "Well, we're losing people for a variety of reasons. For those still at home (or possibly gone), is there something we need to discuss?" I would've gladly pointed out that leaving Covid precautions posted online that virtually no one follows is deceitful. I would note that every time we checked out an activity that was billed as Covid-safe, we found out that people were blatantly ignoring the rules. And then I would've pointed out that leaving this unaddressed was clearly showing approval to one group and not the other.

If you ride a fence, you get a very big, splintery wedgy. They opted for the splintery wedgy.

I do know some people with reasonable views that I don't share--they have opted to not mask post-vaccine unless required. I don't have a beef with them even if I think that's not the best policy. However, they think that the people making different decisions are doing so based on good information even when I can show from FB posts that they are drawn to the lies. 

I just really can't do the lies. Not when it kills people as this article shows. Not when people who claim to be pro-life knowingly use abortion-related  slogans to defend their position. 

Part of this is that there is a culture of not wanting to know about or address other issues too, not just Covid. 

I understand this completely. And your last part especially. I do believe that the pandemic has brought to the forefront very specific brokenness in more than just our economic or political system, but also in so many systems in our culture and religious systems have not been immune. Sweeping the problems under the rug and maintaining the status quo just isn't going to work any longer. Things will get worse if action is not taken, however, no one wants to take action so I predict worse.

The question is, "How much worse?" When huge, foundational shake ups occurred in Europe, there were countries like France who became almost entirely secular with no sign of a life of faith within its borders. The number of "nones" grows with each census to the place that it can't be ignored anymore. What does that say for the future and would disaffiliation from politics be enough to reverse the trend? I have relatives on both side of the divide, and with an extended family who has largely been Christian and not at odds until this, I wonder if they will ever recover. For us, we do have some relationships that have ended permanently. When someone calls my grandson with a heart condition "expendable because freedom", it isn't something I can just get over. My mom would like to see some reconciliation in her lifetime (she is 78 and her health is stable but not great). 

[math teacher]

For the Christians who do take the virus and masking serious, it can be very lonely and isolating. Dh and I are among a half dozen people who mask in our church of around 200. We don't go to small groups, don't go out to eat after service, or any other activities. Just church and leave. I've often said I've spent my entire life being made fun of or ostracized for some of my beliefs and now I get the same thing from the church. Not everyone in the church of course. It hurts.

I know this veered a little off topic, but I just wanted to say that I attend a church that is anti virus/mask, but there are a few of us who still take things seriously. Sometimes we don't have a good alternative. There are literally no churches of my religion in my area who take it seriously.

[kbutton]

So, I just realized the more scholarly article is from before a Covid-vaccine was available and predicted the response to the vaccine based on at least some data that preceded Covid. Yikes! I just followed it from the CT article. 

I didn't see what they saw in terms of vaccine resistance--I truly didn't know many anti-vax folks. Most of the people I know resisting Covid vaccines were not anti-vax before the pandemic, but the anti-vaxers got to them.

I feel like the more scholarly article that is predictive is an interesting contrast to this information:

Quote

When it is difficult to gauge the probability that a health-safety choice will lead to severe illness or death, people instead may take cues for their behavior from voices that share their own identity rather than from their own perception of risk (or from scientists). Identity and its prescriptions may be the more powerful behavioral motivator.

In our research we ask how well voters’ identification with President Trump can explain COVID behaviors and outcomes relative to two more traditional strains of American conservatism. We created an index of social conservatism based on three state-level factors: per capita abortion clinics, pre-Obergefell restrictions on same-sex marriage, and support for prayer in public schools. Likewise, we created a libertarian conservative index based on three factors: per capita ownership of firearms, legality of cannabis, and low state taxes.

What we find is that after controlling for the Trump vote, neither social or libertarian conservatism has any systematic statistical power to explain differences in COVID behaviors, cases, or deaths. Put another way, the data seem to show that it is not Christians being “socially conservative” that appears to be responsible for lax COVID-safety behavior, but rather Christians adopting something of an alternative identity more related to supporting Trump. This may be an important distinction, given the 80% and 76% support among white evangelicals for the Trump campaign in the 2016 and 2020 elections, respectively.

In many respects this makes sense because there is a fairly weak historical basis for linking American conservative identity to, for example, an anti-vaccine stance. (In fact, many trace the anti-vaccination movement as originally emerging from the political left rather than the right.) Moreover, there are many stances within American conservatism that would favor behavior consistent with collective action and the public good over the unbridled liberty of the individual: the general upholding of law and order, military service, bans on abortion, and restrictions on an array of morally offensive behaviors. Although there have been early instances in which clergy expressed concerns over the early introduction of vaccines in the 19th century, American Christianity’s link to the anti-vaccination movement is principally a modern phenomenon, now seemingly associated with a sympathy for Christian nationalism and a dogmatic prioritization of individual liberties over collective welfare.

The longer article talks about libertarian impulses, but they filter for that in whatever the source is for the CT article. 

Let's not get into Trump...I do think it's interesting that both articles pinned all this on Christian Nationalism even if they did it a bit differently and at different times. It's interesting that the longer article sees a larger trend of anti-vax sentiment, but this articles makes it seem new. I suspect it was a case of influencers waiting in the wings for "their moment."

I just wish that people in my world would stop to evaluate this and conclude that their behavior means they have blood on their hands. 

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, math teacher said:

I know this veered a little off topic, but I just wanted to say that I attend a church that is anti virus/mask, but there are a few of us who still take things seriously. Sometimes we don't have a good alternative. There are literally no churches of my religion in my area who take it seriously.

We have slim picking here as well. I have decided though that I might prefer to restart with strangers that didn't directly stab me in the back/play pretend before my eyes during all of this though, lol! Maybe that's silly. 

I don't think I will ever feel like I can be myself in a church in this area again though unless we find a like-minded tribe within a tribe, so to speak.

I don't know people who are really still masking or concerned in our old church--the concern for them evaporated when a vaccine came out. It's not that no one there is vaccinated either, but I think it's very separated by age. Older people = vaccinated. Usually people my parents' age and older are vaccinated, and younger than that, it gets spotty. A few people my age and older are vaccinated, but not tons. 

We opted to not go back before a vaccine was available. We had reasons to think our time there was ticking away prior to the pandemic, but we planned to let our kids finish out high school there. The issues were cultural and a train wreck we could see coming years away that would not necessarily bother other people. It does go back to thinking the best of people without realizing that even if the people in charge now will not abuse certain benefits built into the system, there was every reason to believe that once they retired, the next person in that position would take those benefits and run with them. I wasn't waiting around to see that very predictable result!

[Harriet Vane]

13 minutes ago, math teacher said:

For the Christians who do take the virus and masking serious, it can be very lonely and isolating. Dh and I are among a half dozen people who mask in our church of around 200. We don't go to small groups, don't go out to eat after service, or any other activities. Just church and leave. I've often said I've spent my entire life being made fun of or ostracized for some of my beliefs and now I get the same thing from the church. Not everyone in the church of course. It hurts.

I know this veered a little off topic, but I just wanted to say that I attend a church that is anti virus/mask, but there are a few of us who still take things seriously. Sometimes we don't have a good alternative. There are literally no churches of my religion in my area who take it seriously.

Right there with you. Often dh and I are the only ones in the whole building masked out of several hundred. At the worst parts of the Omicron peak, there might have been 10 or 12 masked. 😥

[Resilient]

From what I am seeing so far, the unwinding of the lockdowns/masking/rules is going to cause at least as much damage as has been done so far.  Maybe a lot more.

 

[Danae]

Our UMC church went back to online only during the Omicron surge.  We’re just moving back to hybrid tomorrow, and based on behavior when we were in person before there will be 100% masking.  No congregational singing until numbers drop further. Lots of energy going into ways to keep people engaged and involved while we can’t do things the old way.

We exist.  I’m sorry for those of you who don’t have compatible options in your locations.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

While I agree that in some churches an American flag on the property is usually a signal of American nationalism, I live in The South where it's not that simple. We're on the edge of Raleigh's  greater metropolitan area.  Since June I have attended a mainline Protestant, conservative Presbyterian church (100% white, something I'm deeply conflicted about) that has a flag out front and on the side of the choir loft opposite a Christian flag.  (I've been opposed to flags in church for decades now.) They follow CDC recommendations, the pastor publicly stated he is fully vaccinated, a substitute pastor had a sermon on God blessing humanity with the intellect to develop science and show the love of God by serving humanity with it, they have a sign on the door that says they recommend anyone entering follow CDC recommendations. 

In the fall chit chat before Sunday School involved everyone going around the table discussing the degree to which they had symptoms after their vaccines and boosters. Everyone was fully vaxxed-3 shots. Mostly aches and pains for day, especially around the injection site. We're not masking at church since vaccinations became available for everyone. It's an older congregation with less than 10 school aged children attending and 3 or 4 preschoolers. There are a dozen teens in their own space doing their own worship on Sundays.

Are there anti-vax people attending? Maybe, based on demographics.  We're located in a mix of suburbs and rural, but this is an Ivy League med school city with a thriving medical industry and medical research area. I live within a 5 minute drive of a pharmaceutical company that worked on several COVID treatments as soon as the pandemic started.  A lot of people are in the medical field here. A young mom of 4 is a pharmacist. We have a few nurses. Lots of retirees who are a highly vaxxed category nationwide.

I left a local Calvary Chapel (the most racially diverse church I've attended with probably 50%-60% Black and Latino with 50%-40% white) I'd attended for about a year before the pandemic.  They followed all the Governor's orders, but as soon as masks weren't required most everyone them.  I was concerned about the very stereotypical evangelical tones hyper-focused on freedom and the decision to spend 2 year preaching in Revelation.  Many evangelicals I know (in NC and AZ) were studying Revelation at the time the pandemic started or shortly after it started and membership in those churches definitely align mostly in the same political direction and are opposed to making and vaccination, or were very on the fence about vaccination. They are too fast an loose with end times prophecy if you ask me.  No, that weather pattern you're seeing on the news isn't what John saw on the Island of Patmos and wrote about in Revelation, so let's fear not and have some respect for applying scripture as God intended, not in reaction to every fear we have.

Overall, NC is a purple state. The Democratic Party controls the offices of governor, secretary of state, and attorney general. The Republican Party controls both chambers of the state legislature. The President of the Republican Party is Black; you can't make assumptions. So, again, purple state. Let's not forget that the US is overall purple too. Elections are won by razor thin margins decided by swing voters.  Waaay too many Americans are unaware that their echo chambers aren't a reflection of the national reality.

[Frances]

11 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Waaay too many Americans are unaware that their echo chambers aren't a reflection of the national reality.

I don’t think this is true in general and certainly not on this board. Do some people who have stereotypical views of those they disagree with? Yes. Do people sometimes lack the ability to find common ground rather than emphasize their differences? Yes. But I think most people are very aware of the wide variety of views out there and that some others believe and think very differently from them and live very different lives.

[HS Mom in NC]

19 minutes ago, Frances said:

I don’t think this is true in general and certainly not on this board. Do some people who have stereotypical views of those they disagree with? Yes. Do people sometimes lack the ability to find common ground rather than emphasize their differences? Yes. But I think most people are very aware of the wide variety of views out there and that some others believe and think very differently from them and live very different lives.

But not to scale and not in accurate proportions. I'm speaking nationally, not on this board. I heard so many people saying things like in 2016, "Who voted for Trump? I don't know anyone who voted for Trump.  He had to have colluded with Russia and stolen the election!" And the same for Biden in 2020 from the other side.  Soooo many on social media during both elections were shocked people voted for candidates whose signs they didn't see in their areas.  LA though their areas are the world entire.  They went on an on about it in the last 2 elections on both sides. I rolled eyes at both.

And I hear quite a few political view sentences that start with, "No one wants.....more public transportation options....more tax cuts for businesses....CTR taught....abstinence only taught....police reform...police fully funded...." Sooooo many seem convinced it's radicals taking over each opposite party who want to totally subjugate anyone who disagrees with them on any issue.  One group frequently says America is really a center right/red country and the others say America is really a center left/blue country.  Nope.  It's evenly polarized with a small number swing voters going opposite directions each election. America the purple.

[Frances]

17 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

But not to scale and not in accurate proportions. I'm speaking nationally, not on this board. I heard so many people saying things like in 2016, "Who voted for Trump? I don't know anyone who voted for Trump.  He had to have colluded with Russia and stolen the election!" And the same for Biden in 2020 from the other side.  Soooo many on social media during both elections were shocked people voted for candidates whose signs they didn't see in their areas.  LA though their areas are the world entire.  They went on an on about it in the last 2 elections on both sides. I rolled eyes at both.

And I hear quite a few political view sentences that start with, "No one wants.....more public transportation options....more tax cuts for businesses....CTR taught....abstinence only taught....police reform...police fully funded...." Sooooo many seem convinced it's radicals taking over each opposite party who want to totally subjugate anyone who disagrees with them on any issue.  One group frequently says America is really a center right/red country and the others say America is really a center left/blue country.  Nope.  It's evenly polarized with a small number swing voters going opposite directions each election. America the purple.

I agree the US is purple. And to some extent about the fear of radicals taking over each party is present. I do think we have been in different political times for the last several years though. Many fundamental, basic principles are gone and it’s much more about group identity.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Frances

[frogger]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

But not to scale and not in accurate proportions. I'm speaking nationally, not on this board. I heard so many people saying things like in 2016, "Who voted for Trump? I don't know anyone who voted for Trump.  He had to have colluded with Russia and stolen the election!" And the same for Biden in 2020 from the other side.  Soooo many on social media during both elections were shocked people voted for candidates whose signs they didn't see in their areas.  LA though their areas are the world entire.  They went on an on about it in the last 2 elections on both sides. I rolled eyes at both.

And I hear quite a few political view sentences that start with, "No one wants.....more public transportation options....more tax cuts for businesses....CTR taught....abstinence only taught....police reform...police fully funded...." Sooooo many seem convinced it's radicals taking over each opposite party who want to totally subjugate anyone who disagrees with them on any issue.  One group frequently says America is really a center right/red country and the others say America is really a center left/blue country.  Nope.  It's evenly polarized with a small number swing voters going opposite directions each election.

I see this too.

People live in echo chambers. They surround themselves with people who think like them and always agree and therefore are surprised and confused when other people think differently. 

ETA Now I realize I missed some posts and am totally repeating people. Sorry about that but there is no delete button. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by frogger

[Faith-manor]

I want to make it clear that my original post was about churches in my area, my region. I was not speaking in general about others. It wad my observation of churches within my orbit which is a three county, rural area. 

[Dmmetler]

One thing I have noticed (which seriously heartens me). Masking cannot be required in my state outside of medical and school settings currently. All my students are age eligible to be vaccinated. Most attend schools where masking is either optional or not enforced. 
 

In Jan, before we started back for Spring, I contacted mg parents, gave a summary of my Mother’s situation, and requested that everyone mask around me because even a mild cold could easily prove fatal at this point. 
 

Everyone did it-including those who had dropped masking completely the second the mandate was dropped, even for their children who were only weeks from being eligible for vaccination, and had been complaining about the mandate through the whole Delta surge. 
 

It makes me wonder if churches that are struggling to walk the line would be better off focusing on spread of illness in general, vs on COVID, at least through cold and flu season. 

[Dianthus]

 

 

PLEASE DON'T QUOTE

 

Prepandemic, I had already been bothered by other church members bringing their sick kids to church. It happened multiple times.  Anyway, whatever the church does, I don't have much faith in the church members in normal times. Most of our illnesses were picked up in church. I have loved avoiding sickness these past two years.

I'm ready to be back to church. We are all vaccinated, except the toddler. I saw our pediatrician yesterday who said we need to get back to normal life, that the virus is more catchy but weaker. I'm upset my ds7 forgot the tune of "Jesus Loves Me". I want to be in church, but where to go back is so very difficult. We actually tried 2 other places at Christmas and we were the only masked people which is very awkward for visitors. And we just didn't care for the churches much anyway, both different denominations.

I don't understand it. Trump pushed vaccine production, and he and his wife are both vaccinated. It doesn't make sense that Trump supporters are so extremely anti vax. I understand being anti mandates. But I also feel people should willingly help others for the greater good, and that didn't happen.

My dd loved church and Sunday school and I'm so sad she's missing it. And wherever we end up attending, she will now be the new kid at 12 yrs old, and that's so hard.

 

PLEASE DON'T QUOTE. I'll delete some of this later.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Spirea
Deleted details

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

One thing I have noticed (which seriously heartens me). Masking cannot be required in my state outside of medical and school settings currently. All my students are age eligible to be vaccinated. Most attend schools where masking is either optional or not enforced. 
 

In Jan, before we started back for Spring, I contacted mg parents, gave a summary of my Mother’s situation, and requested that everyone mask around me because even a mild cold could easily prove fatal at this point. 
 

Everyone did it-including those who had dropped masking completely the second the mandate was dropped, even for their children who were only weeks from being eligible for vaccination, and had been complaining about the mandate through the whole Delta surge. 
 

It makes me wonder if churches that are struggling to walk the line would be better off focusing on spread of illness in general, vs on COVID, at least through cold and flu season. 

I agree that this should be the message. I have less confidence than you.

I think they did it because they love you, your mother's situation is dramatic/temporary (not that you know what her trajectory will be, but they hear rehab vs. nursing home, so they think "viable member of society"), and they are moved in the moment. I think if she was chronically ill, they would think that's your problem to solve. 

I hate to be that jaded. 

I will say that we know chronically ill people who were ill in the before times, and we never thought to mask around them (and had not been asked). It just wasn't a thought. I now think, "Maybe I could see this person more when Covid is over" without having to worry that we might be developing a sniffle we don't know about. 

[frogger]

I will respond above but I will also probably delete soon. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by frogger

[Faith-manor]

15 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I agree that this should be the message. I have less confidence than you.

I think they did it because they love you, your mother's situation is dramatic/temporary (not that you know what her trajectory will be, but they hear rehab vs. nursing home, so they think "viable member of society"), and they are moved in the moment. I think if she was chronically ill, they would think that's your problem to solve. 

I hate to be that jaded. 

I will say that we know chronically ill people who were ill in the before times, and we never thought to mask around them (and had not been asked). It just wasn't a thought. I now think, "Maybe I could see this person more when Covid is over" without having to worry that we might be developing a sniffle we don't know about. 

I agree. They love you Dmmelter and do not want to lose their music teacher. This is not mindset that would take off nation wide.

[kbutton]

11 minutes ago, frogger said:

I will respond above but I will also probably delete soon. 

These are all really good points. There are articles out there (David French has written on this) demonstrating a rise in the number of people who call themselves evangelical because they follow Trump. I didn't know until reading those articles that it was a thing. That makes me think of the guy you mentioned that asked about belief in God. 

I think there is a stream of folks who voted for Trump because they are nationalists (Christian nationalist, white nationalist, or just nationalist). I think when the two articles are put together, the common denominator is nationalism. If so, then what you are seeing lines up more than maybe if we're just looking at church people who voted for Trump. I am not trying to contradict you so much as show a possible common denominator.

There is a big stream of Q running in and alongside the church members. I know a lot of people who inadvertently amplify QAnon, a few who are down the rabbit hole, and a few that espouse many of the same ideas but believe that QAnon is a conspiracy. At least one of that last group members doesn't believe she is a conspiracy theorist, but she is. I didn't know that until Covid, but when I told a mutual friend what this person was spouting, she said, "Oh, she's always been a conspiracy theorist." 

[Faith-manor]

I think we all need to be careful about mentioning specific politicians or this discussion will get shut down for being political. We need to focus more on how specific issues regardless of whether they have a political basis or not have caused a crisis in faith, potentially another large exodus of folks from organized Christianity, etc.

Nationalism is definitely a problem for the church and it can manifest itself in a lot of ways and have a variety of causes. But, I think what we can talk about is the shift for a long time away from traditional, foundational beliefs and practice that may have kept Christianity as a general whole from allowing extremism and lack of care and concern for neighbors to seep into the life of faith.

I think that the postmodern emphasis on the individual in worship, emotionalism and being all about how "I" feel in worship, how god makes "me feel", and the church needs to be about " me" may be one issue. The rock concert, the entertainment, the Hollywood feel of modern church life is something I think may have had a hand in leading to this. A life of faith, originally as N.T. concept was a life of community and concern for what was best for everyone as a whole, for neighbors, for wider community. I think that has been lost. Certainly Do Unto Others and Love Your Neighbor seems to have been back burnered, and individual liberty elevated. I think in a country that is obsessed with individual rights at the expense of the whole, this allows nationalism to invade the church when not corrected by sound, theological teaching, and lead by example from church leadership.

But, my deconversion was complete before the pandemic so I could be completely wrong about that, and you all are welcome to illuminate where I have gone wrong in that theory.

[kbutton]

16 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I think we all need to be careful about mentioning specific politicians or this discussion will get shut down for being political. We need to focus more on how specific issues regardless of whether they have a political basis or not have caused a crisis in faith, potentially another large exodus of folks from organized Christianity, etc.

Good point. I am trying to contain my comments about the politician to the conclusions the articles drew, but I think your recommendation is a better way forward! 

[frogger]

25 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

. But, I think what we can talk about is the shift for a long time away from traditional, foundational beliefs and practice that may have kept Christianity as a general whole from allowing extremism and lack of care and concern for neighbors to seep into the life of faith.

I think that the postmodern emphasis on the individual in worship, emotionalism and being all about how "I" feel in worship, how god makes "me feel", and the church needs to be about " me" may be one issue. The rock concert, the entertainment, the Hollywood feel of modern church life is something I think may have had a hand in leading to this. A life of faith, originally as N.T. concept was a life of community and concern for what was best for everyone as a whole, for neighbors, for wider community. I think that has been lost. Certainly Do Unto Others and Love Your Neighbor seems to have been back burnered, and individual liberty elevated. I think in a country that is obsessed with individual rights at the expense of the whole, this allows nationalism to invade the church when not corrected by sound, theological teaching, and lead by example from church leadership.

.

I do think these things have seeped into areas that were considered "Christian" before. I think of the middle ages and how much pagan ideals merged with Christianity. The average person, of course, could not read Jesus teaching for himself so was very much at the mercy of teachers, political leaders, around him. 

I do agree with your second paragraph although that feels like it affects more progressive churchs. Nationalists do not appear to care about individual thoughts and feelings at all. You are not allowed to disagree in much of anything. 

Sacred texts include the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution though I sometimes wonder if they've read them. They very much declare, "feelings don't matter" though their feelings get hurt like everyone else. 

I will add:

I think the rise of "pop" Christianity is part of it. There is a subset of the church  who gobbles up very shallow but well marketed stuff. I'm not sure I understand the draw to this material but you can see it advertised and talked about.  It often is cutesy, reaffirms basic feelings, has little nuance, but a lot of it gives you tidbits of nationalism. 

[frogger]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

 

There is a big stream of Q running in and alongside the church members. I know a lot of people who inadvertently amplify QAnon, a few who are down the rabbit hole, and a few that espouse many of the same ideas but believe that QAnon is a conspiracy. 

I do think strong Biblical teaching can help. Also, relationships with wise people can help ground or pull people back or just stop and think. Of course, that is harder if you are not meeting in person which happened with the more COVID conservative groups while the conspiracy theorists continued to meet and wind each other up. It made it very lopsided.

People also sort themselves. When our church decided to meet outside for awhile many people who thought we weren't showing faith left and went to these other churches where they will be confirmed in their beliefs.

The lack of ability to disagree and still get along is impeding our ability to influence each other. 

[Scarlett]

I don’t fit in anywhere really in this discussion. Per normal lol

I just want to say I feel for those of you who have had their worlds ripped apart with this Pandemic and the current political climate.
 

I have observed,  from a neutral place, politics and religion my entire life  and I have never seen anything like it. 

[Faith-manor]

In our area there are very very few progressive churches so I can't speak to much except to say the two that we do have, have been very covid conscious and have not advertised any nationalist ideas that I can see. On the other hand, the IFB church has actually had QAnon bites on their marquee. So that has been rather startling and vexing as well.

[Indigo Blue]

@SpireaI hear you. Prepandemic, for many years of my young adult life, I did all the things I thought a good person was supposed to do at church. Yes, lots of people coming to church sick and sick children. I had sinus infections non stop. One day,  a young child came in to that class with a fever. He vomited all over the floor. I cleaned it up. This mom took her son next door to sit in a class with older children where his grandmother taught, and where my young son was a participant, so she could walk on down for the sermon. This was unbeknownst to me until after class. I had just assumed she had taken him home. I was so upset with that whole situation. I think a huge brick hit me upside the head that day, because that, and other things, had just brought it all to a breaking point. (Why weren’t the men involved in these classes, wiping noses and calming down tantrums? They were always counting money or singing in the choir). I was done with it all that day. I withdrew from everything, and a few years later, the pandemic started. A whole other side of humanity was exposed. Yes, “living in fear” comments in surplus. Precautions and protecting others were not stressed from leaders. I do think a good many did get vaxxed, and we did have a virtual service, but there was a very long time where it was in person with no masking, singing and all. It was compared to the flu by a lot of people. 
 

And recently, here, someone posted an article written by someone who was discussing how churches have changed so much in the last few decades. There was a list of things that were brought out as points. It was so spot on. I’m saddened by all this. 
 

I have been pulling away more over the last two years. And my health has been so much better. Dh and I visited a very small church once recently. It was even a different denomination. It was so different. I was pretty shocked at how different. There may come a time that we may completely leave our church. I think Dh is ready. That’s saying a lot. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[Frances]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

I do think these things have seeped into areas that were considered "Christian" before. I think of the middle ages and how much pagan ideals merged with Christianity. The average person, of course, could not read Jesus teaching for himself so was very much at the mercy of teachers, political leaders, around him. 

I do agree with your second paragraph although that feels like it affects more progressive churchs. Nationalists do not appear to care about individual thoughts and feelings at all. You are not allowed to disagree in much of anything. 

While Nationalists are very group think, almost cult like, they do seem to very much emphasize personal rights over the collective good. So big on right to bear arms (with preferably no restrictions), oppose public health mandates (or often even public health messaging and measures), etc. The rallies held here feature American flags, Trump flags, lots of guns, anti-vax, anti-mask, and stolen election signs, and lots of prayers, sometimes while holding Bibles.

While the progressive Methodist church we attended here for many years was pretty much the exact opposite. They welcomed people of any background and religious beliefs (no matter who you are or where you are on your spiritual journey was not just their motto, but the reality), but were very focused on serving others, being involved in the community, etc.

Although this happened many years ago, college was my first exposure to conservative evangelical Christians and the idea of being born again, having been raised Catholic in a small, Midwestern town with more mainstream (at the time) churches. My initial though after getting involved with FCA was that this was the most selfish group of people I’d ever encountered in my life, and it didn’t change over four years. I stayed involved only because it was an easy way to meet people who weren’t so into drinking and partying. It was all about their personal relationship with Jesus.
 

Now later, I met evangelicals who weren’t like this. In fact, my closest friend during my husband’s grad school years very much reminded of the nuns I knew growing up for whom no task was too difficult or beneath them. She was truly a saint on earth. And there is an evangelical church here now that is the leader in helping the homeless. They are always the first church to step up when the city or non-profit groups ask for big time help.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Frances

[scholastica]

I am flummoxed as to why nationalism has become so big with so many people of faith. There’s a church in Tennessee called the Patriot Church founded in 2020. It’s just so bizarre. And really, let’s be honest, it’s become big mostly with white Christians. There’s a race element to this that is distasteful to me, as well. The people in my circles who resisted the notion that systemic racism is a thing and a problem are the ones who have embraced the anti-vax, anti-mask, etc.

Lightheartedly, the vast number of people I know who don’t want the vaccines are afraid of side effects. Who put fear over faith there?

Edited February 19, 2022 by scholastica

[kbutton]

56 minutes ago, frogger said:

I do think strong Biblical teaching can help. Also, relationships with wise people can help ground or pull people back or just stop and think. Of course, that is harder if you are not meeting in person which happened with the more COVID conservative groups while the conspiracy theorists continued to meet and wind each other up. It made it very lopsided.

People also sort themselves. When our church decided to meet outside for awhile many people who thought we weren't showing faith left and went to these other churches where they will be confirmed in their beliefs.

The lack of ability to disagree and still get along is impeding our ability to influence each other. 

The conspiracy theorist I noted is widely considered one of the wise, discerning people. This person is not necessarily a member anymore (no leaving in a huff--life changes), but she has a gravitational pull on a wide range of people. Others in that orbit have some claims to authority--a nurse with rogue views on vaccination, etc. 

The pulling back to stop and think...while this is true, it's tiring to be the person that makes the group do this. At some point, they need to think for themselves. I was that person at church, and it wasn't just about this stuff, it was about parenting special needs kids, etc. They don't want to think. They want to identify with something and embrace it all so that they don't have to think. They want a category that fits them the closest, and then they live in it. They don't want nuance. Even from the pulpit, I could hear frustration from the pastor about topics he really needed to address but didn't want to from time to time. I sort of feel for him while simultaneously want to show him the world's smallest violin playing a song of pity. As one of those people asking others to THINK, I needed his leadership, not to find out he's a nationalist nearing retirement that is frustrated by cultural change. He's not that old. He has tons of wisdom. I think the nationalism is connected to End Times theology, and I truly wonder if he's thought it all the way through or if that is a fear/frustration reaction too! Heck, we're a healthcare family. How does he think we feel during this pandemic?!? 

I feel for people. I suppose I could be one of them, but when I start to see something slide off a cliff, I veer and course correct. I think it helps that I worked in a job for a few years where we had a lot of viewpoint diversity even in a region that was predominantly conservative (before it got crazy). People talked about religion and politics all the time. I learned a great deal. I learned things that I couldn't see or agree with at the time (I'm from a very rural area where some things are so far from reality that they might as well be fiction or from a movie), but I remember those things and go back to them often. It also made me feel as though I can trust people with views different from mine, and that even people whose views are like mine might not be people I would want to be lumped together with. 

I think people sorted themselves prior to Covid a lot more than I realized. I was in the throes of dealing with complicated children, fleeing a church that was becoming controlling and in the thrall of authoritarian leadership, and I likely missed some nuanced social stuff as a result until 2015-2016. Some people on here had alerted me more to alt-right concerns before that, and I became more suspicious after that, but I still missed a lot of that subtle sorting (and I still really mostly only know people who are influenced unknowingly by alt-right ideas). I had a pause in staying on top of news as much as I used to. I had to learn that ideological consistency is a good way to think something through, but it can't tell you about people's motives or when they are about to do something stupid in the name of ideological consistency gone amok. 

 

[Faith-manor]

16 hours ago, kbutton said:

We have slim picking here as well. I have decided though that I might prefer to restart with strangers that didn't directly stab me in the back/play pretend before my eyes during all of this though, lol! Maybe that's silly. 

 

I don't think that is silly. We have former friends and some members of extended family who showed us who they really are, and we believe them. Those relationships will never be resumed unless they actually approach us from a place of deep apology and remorse. Given what they post on social media, I don't think this will be possible.

I am hoping when we move, we will get to restart our lives, and meet new people with whom we don't have this history.

[kbutton]

12 minutes ago, scholastica said:

I am flummoxed as to why nationalism has become so big with so many people of faith. There’s a church in Tennessee called the Patriot Church founded in 2020. It’s just so bizarre. And really, let’s be honest, it’s become big mostly with white Christians. There’s a race element to this that is distasteful to me, as well. The people in my circles who resisted the notion that systemic racism is a thing and a problem are the ones who have embraced the anti-vax, anti-mask, etc.

Lightheartedly, the vast number of people I know who don’t want the vaccines are afraid if side effects. Who put fear over faith there?

There is a dominion theology that overlaps, and it's present in a lot of Christian school curriculum.

A lot of people are pseudo-nationalist in that they are patriotic, served in the military, and still live in places that are very Mayberry. The think the nationalists are like them (they see what they want to see about their views reinforced and assume what the nationalists mean by xyz is what they mean by xyz), and then they end up reading the same news sources, etc. Some are nationalist-lite but getting sucked into the victim mentality (not hard in, say, dairy country where all the farmers have had to sell out and do something else with loads of debt due to government tinkering). Some it's due to End Times theology--nationalism is the cure for one-world government (not that they stop to think about the fact that Christians aren't instructed to stop the antichrist that I can see). I think most have a mix of these influences and haven't realized the pot of water is hot and that they are de facto lending support. I know so many people on the brink of this, and if you gave them a list of things that nationalists think, etc., they would think a lot of them are loony, but they wouldn't think the people around them agree with it even when some do, and they wouldn't see how that has anything to do with masks, etc. Some people I know who are on the brink have been vaccinated and masked and don't understand what the big deal is, but they definitely watch scary news and don't feel a need to make waves at all.

ETA: I'll go one step farther and say that some of the survey questions I see about this stuff could be read completely differently based on "who's asking" if I were to answer a friend asking the same thing. They might think that someone has an agenda, but they would not think that it was a trap vs. that someone means something different by it than they do. They would answer in sincerity and not mean at all what the questioner means and be pigeonholed as a nationalist when they really are just on that edge and blind to the larger movement. For these people, I think this will blow over as a fad much like the Satanic Panic did, and they will have no idea that they were enablers.

Edited February 19, 2022 by kbutton

[Pawz4me]

I don't think I have any real comment, just relating a recent anecdote --

A few days ago DH and I were doing errands and decided to actually go into a restaurant and sit down for lunch. A group of three people (appeared to be an older married couple and a man probably in his 30's), sat down near us. They said a prayer before they ate and while they were talking it became obvious to me they were heavily involved in a church, because everything that talked about involved church committee meetings, choir stuff, various members, etc. Even from the little snippets I could overhear It was glaringly clear that they were anti-mask and wanted all mandates gone. The lady mentioned a member who had stated that he wouldn't return to church until all masking was gone, that if he came in and saw even one masked person he would turn around and leave. So much for the immunocompromised protecting themselves, I guess? Talk about the "all about me" attitude! And I got the impression that opinion didn't particularly bother them at all, and that they mostly agreed with it. And unfortunately I don't think that POV is uncommon among the evangelical Christians in my area. It's not that they don't want to personally mask, they don't want anyone to do it.

I don't really have a dog in the fight, because we left organized Christianity after 9/11. We were appalled by the rise in Christian nationalism within our denomination then, and it's certainly only gotten much worse since. And that is totally repulsive and repugnant to me and something I want nothing to do with. But overhearing strangers having that convo really made me wonder -- Do they even care what impact their conversation might have on someone who is maybe considering visiting a church? I'm guessing not. Or maybe they're so stuck on their way being right and anything else wrong that they don't want anyone who doesn't agree with them? Or maybe they think almost everybody does in fact agree with them? IDK

Edited February 19, 2022 by Pawz4me

[kbutton]

3 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

It's not that they don't want to personally mask, they don't want anyone to do it.

Or they will humor you like you're a little child that can't make good decisions. 

They truly think the masking is a mass delusion like we think the Covid denial is a mass delusion. 

[Frances]

20 minutes ago, scholastica said:

I am flummoxed as to why nationalism has become so big with so many people of faith. There’s a church in Tennessee called the Patriot Church founded in 2020. It’s just so bizarre. And really, let’s be honest, it’s become big mostly with white Christians. There’s a race element to this that is distasteful to me, as well. The people in my circles who resisted the notion that systemic racism is a thing and a problem are the ones who have embraced the anti-vax, anti-mask, etc.

Lightheartedly, the vast number of people I know who don’t want the vaccines are afraid of side effects. Who put fear over faith there?

Have you read Jesus and John Wayne? It explains a lot and goes all the way back to post WWII. I was able to get it from my library.

https://wwnorton.com/books/9781631495731

[frogger]

46 minutes ago, Frances said:

While Nationalists are very group think, almost cult like, they do seem to very much emphasize personal rights over the collective good. So big on right to bear arms (with preferably no restrictions), oppose public health mandates (or often even public health messaging and measures), etc. The rallies held here feature American flags, Trump flags, lots of guns, anti-vax, anti-mask, and stolen election signs, and lots of prayers, sometimes while holding Bibles.

While the progressive Methodist church we attended here for many years was pretty much the exact opposite. They welcomed people of any background and religious beliefs (no matter who you are or where you are on your spiritual journey was not just their motto, but the reality), but were very focused on serving others, being involved in the community, etc.

Although this happened many years ago, college was my first exposure to conservative evangelical Christians and the idea of being born again, having been raised Catholic in a small, Midwestern town with more mainstream (at the time) churches. My initial though after getting involved with FCA was that this was the most selfish group of people I’d ever encountered in my life, and it didn’t change over four years. I stayed involved only because it was an easy way to meet people who weren’t so into drinking and partying. It was all about their personal relationship with Jesus.
 

Now later, I met evangelicals who weren’t like this. In fact, my closest friend during my husband’s grad school years very much reminded of the nuns I knew growing up for whom no task was too difficult or beneath them. She was truly a saint on earth. And there is an evangelical church here now that is the leader in helping the homeless. They are always the first church to step up when the city or non-profit groups ask for big time help.

As someone who is very much in the midst of these people I would say it is more about strict beliefs that what they are fighting for than individual feelings. They honestly think they are fighting for the good of their country and fear their grandchildren will live under totalitarianism. They don't understand social law and social contract and getting along and helping others is a part of keeping totalitarianism at bay because if we can live peacefully together then no one feels the need to force you to do this or that. 

 

It is a very un-nuanced view and they cannot see that they want everyone else to obey the law but they don't have to. They only want their favored laws enforced but not the ones they are against. They hate cancel culture but boycott everyone for anything they disagree with. 

I will confess that if given the opportunity I do expose and very much make obvious this hypocrisy. " I thought you believed..." "Oh so you also don't believe..." "Now I'm confused, which is it? Do you believe this or not?"

[scholastica]

Just now, Frances said:

Have you read Jesus and John Wayne? It explains a lot and goes all the way back to post WWII. I was able to get it from my library.

https://wwnorton.com/books/9781631495731

I have not. I’ll have to look for it. Thanks! I think because I grew up in the “liberal” Northeast, I just never experienced Christianity as having a nationalist component. I do feel as if it has gotten more pronounced since the 80s/90s and Christians getting in bed with politicians on the right tO advance the pro-life cause. So now any right of center political idea has the tinge of being Christian to certain groups of Christians, whether or not it aligns with the gospel.

[scholastica]

6 minutes ago, frogger said:

As someone who is very much in the midst of these people I would say it is more about strict beliefs that what they are fighting for than individual feelings. They honestly think they are fighting for the good of their country and fear their grandchildren will live under totalitarianism. They don't understand social law and social contract and getting along and helping others is a part of keeping totalitarianism at bay because if we can live peacefully together then no one feels the need to force you to do this or that. 

 

It is a very un-nuanced view and they cannot see that they want everyone else to obey the law but they don't have to. They only want their favored laws enforced but not the ones they are against. They hate cancel culture but boycott everyone for anything they disagree with. 

I will confess that if given the opportunity I do expose and very much make obvious this hypocrisy. " I thought you believed..." "Oh so you also don't believe..." "Now I'm confused, which is it? Do you believe this or not?"

I am impressed that you do that.

[Frances]

1 minute ago, frogger said:

As someone who is very much in the midst of these people I would say it is more about strict beliefs that what they are fighting for than individual feelings. They honestly think they are fighting for the good of their country and fear their grandchildren will live under totalitarianism. They don't understand social law and social contract and getting along and helping others is a part of keeping totalitarianism at bay because if we can live peacefully together then no one feels the need to force you to do this or that. 

 

It is a very un-nuanced view and they cannot see that they want everyone else to obey the law but they don't have to. They only want their favored laws enforced but not the ones they are against. They hate cancel culture but boycott everyone for anything they disagree with. 

I will confess that if given the opportunity I do expose and very much make obvious this hypocrisy. " I thought you believed..." "Oh so you also don't believe..." "Now I'm confused, which is it? Do you believe this or not?"

This is why it scares me so much. I do think they truly believe they are fighting the good fight for what is best for the country. That’s why it scares the heck out of me when some other conservatives, outside of the white nationalism group, think the whole stolen election thing is no big deal or just go along with it for the sake of power. I seriously don’t understand how some people can’t see the big picture here and the severe damage being done. But they will buy into the communist threat of us becoming like Cuba or Venezuela and make no mention of the Nordic countries. Or as you say, the threat of totalitarianism. 

[Frances]

2 minutes ago, scholastica said:

I have not. I’ll have to look for it. Thanks! I think because I grew up in the “liberal” Northeast, I just never experienced Christianity as having a nationalist component. I do feel as if it has gotten more pronounced since the 80s/90s and Christians getting in bed with politicians on the right tO advance the pro-life cause. So now any right of center political idea has the tinge of being Christian to certain groups of Christians, whether or not it aligns with the gospel.

The book definitely follows the progression and the worsening over time of the intermingling of politics and religion. I found it to be a fascinating read.

[Pawz4me]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

The book definitely follows the progression and the worsening over time of the intermingling of politics and religion. I found it to be a fascinating read.

Ditto. Highly recommend.