BSA Scout experts - Rather wild update

[lauraw4321]

I’m Advancement Chair of my DD’s troop. What do you require from a MB counselor to confirm that a MB has been earned?  Does it change your answer if the counselor is the Scout’s parent?

 

TIA. 

 

ETA: Things continued to get worse, not better. At our last meeting, I happened to see our SM angrily berating a Scout over not following a rule that doesn't exist and more things that just shouldn't happen. The Scout fell to absolute pieces (sobbing uncontrollably) once I got her away from the SM and thanked me for "rescuing" her from the SM. It was horrible. I took it up the chain to committee chair and chartering org rep. The response was to suspend our troop for 2 months. It's devastating and I'm so upset. It's so ugly and just awful.

 New update: I was summarily removed from leadership and my daughters were kicked out of the troop as well because I “caused conflict” with the adults. When I asked what conflict I caused, I was told it was complaining about the issue I mentioned above. Another parent called a parents’ meeting tonight and all of the parents stood behind me and the parent of the victim scout (who were both also kicked out). We are starting a new troop. I’m flabbergasted at how things have unfolded. So. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by lauraw4321
Update.

[prairiewindmomma]

When I was advancement chair, I made sure the blue cards were signed. If there was a question as to whether the counselor/parent had signed ethically, I would dance around that by asking questions of the scout during the interview, but I never denied a badge.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

When I was an active scouter, we tried our best to make certain a scout's parent was never that scout's merit badge counselor. MBCs had to show they had expertise in a MB area and had to be registered with the Council in order to actively sign off on Blue Cards. Without being a registered MBC, signed Blue Cards don't mean a thing and were not accepted. Our District did an okay job vetting Merit Badge counselors but the Council was a bit better.

In order to directly answer your question, I would want to know the parent was registered as an MBC, had experience in the MB category, and followed the requirements of the MB.

[HomeAgain]

I have been the MBCounselor for my own kid, mostly because nobody else wanted to tackle that merit badge.  Here's what I made sure my kid had:

-pictures/video of the MB being accomplished.  Every step had some sort of picture with it. 

-the downloadable workbook printed/filled in by kid or any other documents necessary (maps, planning checklists, etc.).

-scoutmaster or committee person conversation with my kid with the MB workbook handy so the adult could refer to it if he wanted.

Nobody ever questioned the MB, and I think they were glad to not have to do 40+ miles of hiking with the one scout who was pushing to earn Eagle. 😄 

[lauraw4321]

7 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

In order to directly answer your question, I would want to know the parent was registered as an MBC, had experience in the MB category, and followed the requirements of the MB.

The answers to the questions are all yes. In fact, parent is the only MBC on this particular MB approved in our council to my knowledge.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

1 minute ago, HomeAgain said:

I have been the MBCounselor for my own kid, mostly because nobody else wanted to tackle that merit badge.  Here's what I made sure my kid had:

-pictures/video of the MB being accomplished.  Every step had some sort of picture with it. 

-the downloadable workbook printed/filled in by kid or any other documents necessary (maps, planning checklists, etc.).

-scoutmaster or committee person conversation with my kid with the MB workbook handy so the adult could refer to it if he wanted.

Nobody ever questioned the MB, and I think they were glad to not have to do 40+ miles of hiking with the one scout who was pushing to earn Eagle. 😄 

This was the hiking merit badge? No one wanted to be a hiking MBC? That's astounding. Hiking was one of the most common merit badges for MBCs in my area. times have changed.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

1 minute ago, HomeAgain said:

I have been the MBCounselor for my own kid, mostly because nobody else wanted to tackle that merit badge.  Here's what I made sure my kid had:

-pictures/video of the MB being accomplished.  Every step had some sort of picture with it. 

-the downloadable workbook printed/filled in by kid or any other documents necessary (maps, planning checklists, etc.).

-scoutmaster or committee person conversation with my kid with the MB workbook handy so the adult could refer to it if he wanted.

Nobody ever questioned the MB, and I think they were glad to not have to do 40+ miles of hiking with the one scout who was pushing to earn Eagle. 😄 

I have been a MB counselor for my own kids also, and this is also what I did. We were the exception rather than the rule for our troop, in terms of documentation, but not necessarily for our councils (we have been in three different ones through the years).

[Loowit]

I was advancement chair for many years.  I would not have credited a merit badge without a signed blue card.  They can be signed off on scoutbook now too, rather than a physical copy.  Once the blue card is signed off by a registered merit badge counselor, either physically or electronically, it is recorded as officially completed.  We did not require anything beyond a signed card, nor can you really going strictly by the guide to advancement.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

2 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

The answers to the questions are all yes. In fact, parent is the only MBC on this particular MB approved in our council to my knowledge.

Then you have to go under the auspice of A Scout is Honest and trust the scout did the work as designated in the MB handbook.

[lauraw4321]

Just now, Loowit said:

I was advancement chair for many years.  I would not have credited a merit badge without a signed blue card.  They can be signed off on scoutbook now too, rather than a physical copy.  Once the blue card is signed off by a registered merit badge counselor, either physically or electronically, it is recorded as officially completed.  We did not require anything beyond a signed card, nor can you really going strictly by the guide to advancement.

MBC signed it in Scoutbook, but there is still a box for "leader approved." I awarded it.  Our scoutmaster has reversed/deleted it.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

The scoutmaster decided the Scout didn't earn the merit badge? That's interesting.

[prairiewindmomma]

1 minute ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

This was the hiking merit badge? No one wanted to be a hiking MBC? That's astounding. Hiking was one of the most common merit badges for MBCs in my area. times have changed.

 

This is very geography dependent. In the flat Midwest most scouts did their long hikes out of state. If your troop didn’t have the $$$$ to travel, parents often took it on. Biking and scuba were also hard to find counselors for.

Ironically, nuclear science and aviation were super easy since councils ran clinics attached to field trips. 

Where we live now it’s super easy to find a hiking MB counselor since everybody and their dog hikes here. 

[Loowit]

Just now, lauraw4321 said:

MBC signed it in Scoutbook, but there is still a box for "leader approved." I awarded it.  Our scoutmaster has reversed/deleted it.

According to the guide the advancement if it is approved by the merit badge counselor a troop has to accept it.  But I have met many scoutmasters who can be overly controlling of these things.  Fortunately, I never had to work with one in my troops.

7.0.4.6 Once It Is Earned, It’s Earned
A Scout who has earned a merit badge from a registered
and approved counselor by actually and personally fulfilling
the requirements as written will have met the purpose of the
merit badge program and the contribution to the aims of
Scouting. The Scout may keep the badge and count it
toward advancement. See “Personal Growth Is the Primary
Goal,” 2.0.0.3. The same holds true if a Scout, without intent
to violate national BSA procedures or policies, fulfills merit
badge requirements with someone who is not registered and
approved as a counselor. This could happen, for example, if
a Scout, in good faith, contacts someone who has
inadvertently been dropped from a unit or district charter or
otherwise has an expired membership, but who remains on
an approved list of counselors.
In cases where it is discovered that unregistered or
unapproved individuals are signing off merit badges, this
should be reported to the council or district advancement
committee so they have the opportunity to follow up. But it
is also the responsibility of unit leaders to help Scouts
understand that only registered and approved counselors
are to be used. If a Scout to whom this mandated
procedure has been made clear has ignored it, then the
unit leader may require the youth to work with another
counselor who is properly documented and who will verify
or ensure that requirements are met. A unit leader should
discuss any potential follow-up counselors with the Scout
and provide the name of at least one, but the Scout must
be allowed to work with registered and approved
counselors of his or her choice.

[lauraw4321]

2 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

The scoutmaster decided the Scout didn't earn the merit badge? That's interesting.

Well, she deleted it from Scoutbook and says she wants to discuss it. I'm trying to decipher what's going on and I'm very  new to BSA (much more GS experience).

[Granny_Weatherwax]

10 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

This is very geography dependent. In the flat Midwest most scouts did their long hikes out of state. If your troop didn’t have the $$$$ to travel, parents often took it on. Biking and scuba were also hard to find counselors for.

Ironically, nuclear science and aviation were super easy since councils ran clinics attached to field trips. 

Where we live now it’s super easy to find a hiking MB counselor since everybody and their dog hikes here. 

I'm in the Midwest and Hiking was easy here. SCUBA not so much; finding a certified MBC was difficult. Biking - well, shucks, I did have to become a registered MBC for that in order for DS to earn it. The District decided we had to advertise our rides with the Troop and District and offer those rides to all other scouts as well. No parent son rides were accepted and we had to wear Class Bs and follow all scouting guidelines. I remember being flummoxed because DS's long ride was done on flat prairie ground and someone here on TWTM took her son to the top of a mountain in CO and let him ride down it. I think that was the first time I realized geography could play an interesting part in earning MBs. LOL

[Granny_Weatherwax]

15 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Well, she deleted it from Scoutbook and says she wants to discuss it. I'm trying to decipher what's going on and I'm very  new to BSA (much more GS experience).

The best thing you can do is to educate yourself on BSA policy and follow it. See the quote above.

If, after things are discussed, you are truly concerned that something hinky is going on from either side, contact your District Rep and ask questions. Use the "I'm new and don't understand." card if you are comfortable doing that.

[HomeAgain]

28 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

This was the hiking merit badge? No one wanted to be a hiking MBC? That's astounding. Hiking was one of the most common merit badges for MBCs in my area. times have changed.

 

West Texas, tarantula migrations and 100+degree heat for a good portion of the year, ice in other times.  There was one hike we attempted that was 70 degrees at the beginning but a freak wind dropped it to the 30s not even an hour in.  None of us were prepared. No, there weren't many adults willing to hang out for 8+ hours with scouts that were also less than enthused. The scouts who did the hiking merit badge went alternate years to a camp that completed the last few hikes over a week, figuring the first few were covered by troop campouts.

DS didn't have that opportunity, so he and I got up at 4am to hike the state park for the second 10, 15, and 20 milers over a span of a few weeks that spring, whenever I could get a sitter for the youngest.  He'd report back to scoutmaster how he spent his weekend each time. When it came time for the quarterly awards he stepped down from the platform and came over to give me his merit badge, telling me I deserved it just as much as him.

I'll probably be doing the biking merit badge with the youngest, but I am encouraging him to keep a blog for all his scouting.  That way, any MB Counselor can jump onto his page and see what he has done that week, all in his own words.

[lauraw4321]

SM was irritated that the opportunity wasn’t offered to entire troop. MBC/parent and I said kid shouldn’t be put in the middle of something like that. SM admitted she was wrong. MB will be reinstated in SB. I appreciate the help. 
 

Im also wondering how you decide that the good outweighs the bad in a troop?  I hate scout drama. It is unending it seems. 

[prairiewindmomma]

My best advice is to go to council and ask for advice on stable functional troops that have had a number of Eagles. Usually they will have been going and stable for several years, and the Scoutmaster will have been at it long enough to be too tired to tolerate much drama. The running of it all will be a familiar cycle, and the Scoutmaster is letting the scouts lead…supporting them enough that they don’t fail, but also not grasping at the reins themselves. There are also enough functional adults in the troop that no one is getting worn out or playing queen bee.
 

My boys are done, but if my daughters wanted in, I would push them towards venturing crews as soon as they turned 14.

[lauraw4321]

3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

My best advice is to go to council and ask for advice on stable functional troops that have had a number of Eagles. Usually they will have been going and stable for several years, and the Scoutmaster will have been at it long enough to be too tired to tolerate much drama. The running of it all will be a familiar cycle, and the Scoutmaster is letting the scouts lead…supporting them enough that they don’t fail, but also not grasping at the reins themselves. There are also enough functional adults in the troop that no one is getting worn out or playing queen bee.
 

My boys are done, but if my daughters wanted in, I would push them towards venturing crews as soon as they turned 14.

Thanks. There are no venturing crews in our area (closest just disbanded) and we have the biggest / most stable female troop. 
 
I love Scouts (GS and BSA) but I’m so tired of drama. Maybe it’s inevitable. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by lauraw4321
Typo

[prairiewindmomma]

If a scoutmaster is willing to cancel a signed blue card because of irritation, that’s a character flaw or inexperience. Overriding you as Advancement chair is really not nice either. It’s a double red flag, IMO. 
 

[theelfqueen]

1 hour ago, lauraw4321 said:

SM was irritated that the opportunity wasn’t offered to entire troop. MBC/parent and I said kid shouldn’t be put in the middle of something like that. SM admitted she was wrong. MB will be reinstated in SB. I appreciate the help. 

My kid went to merit badge classes out of council several times (kid's Dad lived in another council and in a bigger city with more opportunities) so we would tell the SM and show him the flyer or website  beforehand and open a card  ... the rest of the troop didn't really have those opportunities,either,  sometimes that's life even when MBC isn't the parent. 

[lauraw4321]

Just now, theelfqueen said:

My kid went to merit badge classes out of council several times (kid's Dad lived in another council and in a bigger city with more opportunities) so we would tell the SM and show him the flyer or website  beforehand and open a card  ... the rest of the troop didn't really have those opportunities,either,  sometimes that's life even when MBC isn't the parent. 

Yes. Agree. Sometimes things aren't available to everyone and that’s life. MBC/parent has offered this MB to troop through email and other communication. This opportunity arose last minute through a series of events.  Scout emailed SM to ask to open MB (which has been allowed a lot due to covid) and SM agreed. 
 

MBC/parent is previous SM, who was pushed out and that’s what I’m afraid this is really about. There’s so much ugliness behind the scenes that I really wonder if we should be involved at times. But the opportunities for for the kids has been amazing. I’m so torn. Starting a new troop is a ton of work and I don’t know if we could really pull it off. Ugh. What a mess. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

There has been a lot of turmoil and upheaval as the BSA has changed and new leadership is abundant. It's going to take a while for things to work themselves out. Lots of training, questioning, and learning best practices are in order.

Drama in any situation is awful but when adults are playing games and children/young people are caught in the middle it's doubly worse.

I would suggest learning as much as you can, talk to your District/Council reps if you need to, take advantage of every training opportunity, and give your scouts the best experience you can. 

My DS and I had a blast searching for scouting opportunities and joining other troops for special events (like Okpik and Philmont) that our troop couldn't or wouldn't do. 

As to the new SM, maybe she was taught the same info I was early on, that a parent cannot be a MBC without offering the MB to all scouts at the same time and, even though the parent offered in the past, it wasn't offered this time. But, if she agreed to it and permitted the MB and Blue Card, she was playing a game. I certainly hope the scout wasn't aware of the behind-the-scene hijinx.

I applaud you for being a volunteer and hope the rest of your time in scouting is smooth and enjoyable. I loved scouts and have often thought about getting involved again.
 

[Janeway]

We require that to merit badge officers sign off on stuff and neither can be the parent of the child who earned the badge. there always seems to be a slight little meeting where the merit badge counselors, two assigned every time, go over the badge and everything they did to earn it.

[lauraw4321]

4 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

There has been a lot of turmoil and upheaval as the BSA has changed and new leadership is abundant. It's going to take a while for things to work themselves out. Lots of training, questioning, and learning best practices are in order.

Drama in any situation is awful but when adults are playing games and children/young people are caught in the middle it's doubly worse.

I would suggest learning as much as you can, talk to your District/Council reps if you need to, take advantage of every training opportunity, and give your scouts the best experience you can. 

My DS and I had a blast searching for scouting opportunities and joining other troops for special events (like Okpik and Philmont) that our troop couldn't or wouldn't do. 

As to the new SM, maybe she was taught the same info I was early on, that a parent cannot be a MBC without offering the MB to all scouts at the same time and, even though the parent offered in the past, it wasn't offered this time. But, if she agreed to it and permitted the MB and Blue Card, she was playing a game. I certainly hope the scout wasn't aware of the behind-the-scene hijinx.

I applaud you for being a volunteer and hope the rest of your time in scouting is smooth and enjoyable. I loved scouts and have often thought about getting involved again.
 

Thanks. Unfortunately Scout was aware, as she was involved directly in the email correspondence, although MBC/parent and I immediately removed Scout. 
 

My oldest will (fingers crossed) do Sea Base this summer and I’ll do Philmont with her next summer. 
 

I think the good outweighs the bad. It’s always tough being the newbie, especially the female Newbie (I have no brothers or sons, so this is really new to me). 
 

I don’t know if I have the bandwidth to get involved at a higher level, but I am doing online trainings and readings. 

[Xahm]

I want to thank y'all for having this conversation here. My oldest, a daughter, is a first year Webelos this year, so we're trying to think about what troop to join. Our pack, like others in the area, has been de facto coed, with boy and girl dens meeting in the same time and place as each other. She's gotten along really well with some of the boys, and there are just 3 girls her age. The current thought is to make the 50+ year old troop essentially co-ed as well. On paper a boy troop and girl troop, but in practice a girl patrol meeting with the established boys. If we do this, we'll likely have less of the drama that comes from entirely new leadership. The troop and pack are more "progressive" than some, so there wouldn't be much "this is boy stuff" attitude. There are a couple of girl troops 15 minutes from us, in different directions, but then she'd leave her friends. Her brothers, including the one with whom she likes to pretend she's a twin, would want to join "our" troop, almost certainly. Right now I'm just a Lion Den leader, so this all feels very foreign, and reading posts like this helps me get a feel for the issues that may arise.

[lauraw4321]

Update first post. So sad.

[City Mouse]

I am so sorry.

I hate it anytime an adult’s actions cause a child to dislike scouting. It shouldn’t be that way, but it happens all too often.

There is something similar going on with the girls troop in my small town. Most of the girls that were excited to join initially have all quit and identified one particular adult as the reason. 

[lauraw4321]

Just pinging for the update. I’ll add that I asked them whether they really wanted to remove the adult (and her kids who had nothing to do with it whatsoever) who raised an issue about how a scout was being treated by an adult. They confirmed the decision. 

[Bambam]

I'm so sorry for you and your girls and the other kids in that group. We had a similar type experience with a different large organization. 
It really messes with idea that there are organizations out there that are devoted to helping/supporting children.  But I think the problem, at least ours, was with the local and district leadership. And that's sad because it could be good for kids. If the leadership is good, it can be. 

[YaelAldrich]

Wow.  Are the powers that be going to be in control of the process of starting this new troop?  If so, why?!?

[ktgrok]

On 1/10/2022 at 10:10 PM, lauraw4321 said:

Im also wondering how you decide that the good outweighs the bad in a troop?  I hate scout drama. It is unending it seems. 

This is why we dropped scouts. I realized we had SO LITTLE family time, with DH working two jobs plus leading a non profit organization (he's thankfully hading that over slowly to someone else, and will be on the board, but no longer the president soon), that it made no sense to spend that limited amount of time doing activities prescribed by someone else, and subject to their whims and issues. Between kid drama and parent drama...meh. But this was cub scouts, so more family oriented vs scout on their own. (also, full disclosure, I wanted my free time to be stuff I wanted to do, not what some scouting book said I should do - I'm both an introvert and a rebel I guess)

On 1/10/2022 at 11:00 PM, prairiewindmomma said:

My best advice is to go to council and ask for advice on stable functional troops that have had a number of Eagles. Usually they will have been going and stable for several years, and the Scoutmaster will have been at it long enough to be too tired to tolerate much drama. The running of it all will be a familiar cycle, and the Scoutmaster is letting the scouts lead…supporting them enough that they don’t fail, but also not grasping at the reins themselves. There are also enough functional adults in the troop that no one is getting worn out or playing queen bee.
 

My boys are done, but if my daughters wanted in, I would push them towards venturing crews as soon as they turned 14.

The only downside of a long established group is that there MAY be the "insider" vs "outsider" issue - as in there are long established pecking orders and people who are "in the know" and don't want outside interference. that may be what happened to OP. Again, we had experience in cubs, not BSA, but the longer established pack was way worse about this. The newer one still had leaders that were former Eagle scouts, but was more fluid in accepting opinion of others. NO drama of old timers vs newbies at all - it helps that several leaders were in elementary ed, and my favorite was actually in law enforcement and worked specifically with juveniles. So could be coincidence, but very different vibes as far as extending outreach and welcoming vs insular. 

[ktgrok]

10 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

Just pinging for the update. I’ll add that I asked them whether they really wanted to remove the adult (and her kids who had nothing to do with it whatsoever) who raised an issue about how a scout was being treated by an adult. They confirmed the decision. 

I hope you send a formal, written, explanation of this up the chain of leadership. I'd hope this is something BSA would take seriously. But I also know that finding people that want to lead is hard, so maybe they take what they can get 😞

I also have to ask, just being nosy and having my own biases, wondering if this was a case of a male leader questioning female scouts ability to have completed things? I know some were not happy about integrating girls more fully and was hoping that wasn't going to manifest in actual leader/scout interactions.

[ScoutTN]

Sorry for all the drama! You are better off out of such a bad troop. Best wishes on starting/finding a better one! 
 

Agreeing with Katie, send a written letter to more than one person on your council. If they shut you down, go around them to the next level. 

[ScoutTN]

Another thought is that if you can find a good female BSA leader to mentor them, your girls could continue in the short run as lone scouts until a new troop is in the picture.

They could also join a Venture Crew (if both are 13 yo) and continue to work on advancement in that context. Eagle can be earned in VC. VC here tends to be more laid back and truly student led. Ymmv. 

[lauraw4321]

My faith in humanity has been somewhat restored. A parent called a parent meeting and asked me to come last night. A few parents left and very quickly formed a very small new troop. Every other parent was at this meeting (except 2, I think) and they unanimously agreed that this decision was wrong, that they could not allow their kids to remain in the troop with the Committee Chairman / Chartered Org Rep. and are asking the chartering org to remove them. If they do not, we are forming a new troop. I’m very sad that the troop may end because there are a lot of memories / traditions that are hard to say goodbye to. But it’s amazing to have a bunch of parents, most of whom I don’t really know at all, agree that this response was not ok. 
The SM who was the source of the scout mistreatment I reported has resigned. She was female, btw @ktgrok.

[lauraw4321]

7 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Another thought is that if you can find a good female BSA leader to mentor them, your girls could continue in the short run as lone scouts until a new troop is in the picture.

They could also join a Venture Crew (if both are 13 yo) and continue to work on advancement in that context. Eagle can be earned in VC. VC here tends to be more laid back and truly student led. Ymmv. 

Thanks! My younger kid is only 11. The VCs around me don’t do any advancement work. They are focused on high adventure and use the BSA umbrella for convenience only. 

[lauraw4321]

Oooof. It just gets wilder. 
 

The SM who supposedly resigned is fully welcome back in the troop, just not as SM. Even though me AND MY KIDS remain banned for me raising a concern regarding how said SM treated a scout. 
 

When a person from district called I told them I’d give them some free legal advice. Kicking out a whistleblower is ALWAYS the WORST move an organization can make. 

[ScoutTN]

You are better off out of a troop that behaves that way.

[lauraw4321]

Just now, ScoutTN said:

You are better off out of a troop that behaves that way.

Yup. And fortunately a lot of parents agree. Many are now wondering about their sons in the boys troop at the same church with the same COR.  
 

You’d think the Catholic Church would have learned to be a bit more careful with respect to the treatment of kids….  Not that BSA has a great track record with such things either. 

[Kanin]

14 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

When a person from district called I told them I’d give them some free legal advice. Kicking out a whistleblower is ALWAYS the WORST move an organization can make. 

Are you going to do anything more with this?

[lauraw4321]

2 hours ago, Kanin said:

Are you going to do anything more with this?

No. Moving on. I am trying to meet with the Priest in charge of such things, but nothing else. 

[QueenCat]

Your District leaders really should be made aware of what happened. They need to be able to educate the Chartering Org and leadership to prevent this from happening to others.

[Kanin]

3 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

No. Moving on. I am trying to meet with the Priest in charge of such things, but nothing else. 

Yeah. Sometimes you just need to move on. So frustrating though!

[lauraw4321]

5 hours ago, QueenCat said:

Your District leaders really should be made aware of what happened. They need to be able to educate the Chartering Org and leadership to prevent this from happening to others.

District leader is ok with this, but is encouraging me to start a new troop. Also? District leader is about 24 years old. So far, priest hasn’t responded. There’s a parents meeting on Monday and I think the CoR and CC are going to be blindsided by mass parent resignation.