Confederate Grave, Part II. (Warning: dubious moral behavior mentioned)

[Pam in CT]

Some of the newbies popping up in this thread may not know that there was a precursor thread some months ago, about the same grave, on which Quill then noticed a Confederate flag. Which she did not remove, but did discuss here; and which precipitated a predecessor discussion here about Confederate symbols and DAR and causes and symbols; as well as the sanctity of graves (generally) and freedom of expression (generally) and graveyard-specific policies for remembrances and which flags are (generally) permitted by graveyard policies.

 

It's a little weird, to leave contact information on a gravesite token; sufficiently unusual that I tend to concur with Mercy's initial take that

6 hours ago, MercyA said:

It's almost like she wants someone to contact her. (Don't bother.) Weird and very sad.

Maybe the idea is to provoke, troll-like. Or maybe the idea is to encourage like-minded others to make contact.  Who knows.

In any event:  you leave a remembrance -- be it plastic flowers, or a teddy bear, or a photograph or letter -- in a public place -- be it the Vietnam Memorial, an impromptu memorial on the site of an accident, an impromptu collective memorial after a catastrohpe like 9/11, up to an including a graveyard... there is no right to privacy.

You have to reasonably expect that sooner or later *someone* will clear dead flowers and ratty flags and forlorn wet teddy bears and plastic bits away, that paper momentos will be hauled into trash. That's how it goes.  If it's an organized public space the Vietnam Memorial, some portion of the more-poignant items may ultimately be curated into a public exhibit. If it's a spontaneous outpouring of grief at the place of a disaster like after Sandy Hook, a similar effort may also be made by someone with a personal connection to the event.

Again, in any event: While I actually do, personally, have a surprising-for-an-agnostic sense of sanctity in graveyards, and for sure am deeply opposed to *defacing* graveyards... and while in the precursor thread I came down on Team Don't Just Stealthily Remove the Confederate Flag, Learn Something... I'm not very agitated now that we're onto Round 2 about a paper note.  You leave a paper memento *atop a grave*, it is not a reasonable expectation that it will sit there unmolested indefinitely, nor that no living person will ever read it. It is different from leaving a note inside a coffin, or inside a mailbox for that matter.

 

And to Quill's insight that

5 hours ago, Quill said:

...My feeling is, I want people to know this shit still goes on. This person still (STILL!) thinks confederate soldiers were “amazing” and “bravely fought the tyrants.”  And this person says they are committed to the “ongoing battle to honor” the confederate soldier’s memory. 

 

It’s like - how would I feel if the card was in the American cemetery at Normandy and it were praising the German soldiers and promised to “honor their memory”? How would I feel if the card had a Swastika sticker on the front and back and a picture of Hitler with a thousand people saluting him? 
 

To me it is the same thing. 
 

The purpose of posting it is to say, We still have this.

... it seems to me Very Relevant to the discussion, that Quill recognizes that going public on NextDoor could plausibly bring armed white supremacists to her doorstep.

That context *matters.*

 

It's not just a few languishing whackadoodles in remote parts of the nation.

White supremacist extremism has been identified by both law enforcement and recently the military as the greatest threat that American democracy faces. Adherents are actively working to identify and connect with one another.

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

C'mon. A note on a grave is a way to recruit rather than, say, the internet? 

I'm off to look for my pics of my letter on SP's grave. Humans are weird. We do weird things. 

 

 

[katilac]

3 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I did a clean up this weekend of family graves 

I am willing to grant that anyone cleaning up family graves can read whatever they wish. I would feel squicky about reading a card left on the grave of someone I know but whose grave I am not cleaning, lol, and I would never pick up a card from a random grave. 

[katilac]

15 minutes ago, Quill said:

So really, it seems like a good point raised by @Stacia and a few others: surely the letter-leaver didn’t expect *the soldier* to read it.  

People send "letters to heaven" all the time. It seems a bit snide to say that surely they don't expect the dead person to read it. 

There are so many better ways of fighting this than removing items from a grave. If you think it's likely that they are trying to recruit or find like-minded people, then it's no less likely to think they might have a camera pointed at the grave to find the 'other side,' and surely you don't want to be all over the internet as the person who steals from a soldier's grave. 

 

[Scarlett]

36 minutes ago, katilac said:

You think people have the right to remove things from graves? I don't even know what to say to that. Leaving flowers, cards, and other remembrances on graves is a long-standing and well-accepted tradition in American society. I know of no corresponding tradition related to removing things from graves. 

Do you really think you have the right to remove things from graves? You go around removing cards from graves? Flowers? Photographs?  

The person might be looking for a platform or like-minded people, who knows? I've never in my life known anyone to remove a card from a stranger's grave and read it, so it seems like a might ineffective method, but no matter: that's on her. 

Also, that's an interesting way to welcome a new poster. They didn't start a controversial thread, they merely responded to one, which is absolutely okay (I mean, it's also okay if a new poster wants to start with a controversial thread, just not recommended). 

Because one does not read correspondence not addressed to one (I had to switch on my Emily Post vibes for this one). 

No, you do not read it if it blows off the grave either, nor any other correspondence that might be blown down the street. In the graveyard, you turn it in to the office, or dispose if it if it is beyond saving. If not in a graveyard, 

If someone writes something and leaves it on a placard or easel facing the public, or taped to the headstone, then you can assume they are okay with anyone reading it. Otherwise, assume not/

Again we aren’t talking about a person leaving a card on her loved ones grave.  She was making a very public display of her feelings and so how could she expect it would be left alone.  It isn’t her grave to leave anything on.  
 

As for new posters……if they truly are new posters who just wandered into a hot topic I apologize. Seems odd though.  

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I dunno. It's a weird way to recruit. Especially if the narrative is already out loud and proud in your area. 

This thread reminded me that when I was an angsty teen, I left a letter on Sylvia Plath's grave and boy, oh boy, I hope nobody read it! Hopefully it rained that night and a kind person dumped it, unopened, in the bin! 

 

 

Re: loud and proud...its interesting because, while there is a loud and proud faction, I dont think that is the sinister part. Those flag-out-the-truck bed guys are a tiny fraction of the actual racist white supremacists around here. Much more are the “Not to sound racist, but...” followed by whatever disgusting remark. That’s the type of thing I have witnessed way more often, including days into my current job, when my new boss was very obviously trying to find out how tolerant (or supportive) I was going to be of his racist bullshovoky. Then I think he was annoyed that he hired a “liberal” in homeschool-SAHM clothing who should obviously have been a “conservative” like him. 🙄

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

Re: loud and proud...its interesting because, while there is a loud and proud faction, I dont think that is the sinister part. Those flag-out-the-truck bed guys are a tiny fraction of the actual racist white supremacists around here. Much more are the “Not to sound racist, but...” followed by whatever disgusting remark. That’s the type of thing I have witnessed way more often, including days into my current job, when my new boss was very obviously trying to find out how tolerant (or supportive) I was going to be of his racist bullshovoky. Then I think he was annoyed that he hired a “liberal” in homeschool-SAHM clothing who should obviously have been a “conservative” like him. 🙄

Yikes. 

I still think grave note recruitment is likely to be very inefficient. 

[WildflowerMom]

@Quill, did you google?   I found this book.  

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, katilac said:

People send "letters to heaven" all the time. It seems a bit snide to say that surely they don't expect the dead person to read it. 

There are so many better ways of fighting this than removing items from a grave. If you think it's likely that they are trying to recruit or find like-minded people, then it's no less likely to think they might have a camera pointed at the grave to find the 'other side,' and surely you don't want to be all over the internet as the person who steals from a soldier's grave. 

 

I would think it would be equally unpopular to be that person putting supportive cards on a confederate grave. 

As far someone filming it there? Maybe but seems unlikely. If I become some viral sensation because I took this confederate-love note off a grave, then oh well. Its been nice knowing y’all. 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

 

 

I'm going to pull a few things out and leave the quote box so it's clear who I'm quoting, and use quotation marks. 

"It's a little weird, to leave contact information on a gravesite token~ " Quite weird, I agree, but you don't know that the contact info is there unless you read it, and you shouldn't read cards left on gravesites. 

"In any event:  you leave a remembrance -- be it plastic flowers, or a teddy bear, or a photograph or letter -- in a public place -- be it the Vietnam Memorial, an impromptu memorial on the site of an accident, an impromptu collective memorial after a catastrohpe like 9/11, up to an including a graveyard... there is no right to privacy." Again, I agree. There is no 'right' to privacy in a graveyard; however, I certainly think there is an expectation of privacy, and and expectation of respect. We can't lose fact of the fact that a civilized society requires civility, and there are few things less civil than poking around a grave and removing things because you suspect the person who left them might have viewpoints and intentions you don't disagree with. 

I'm going to let those people worry about their own intentions, and I'm gonna worry about mine. 

"That context *matters.*" The context matters in the sense that we should all be doing everything possible to fight white supremacy, but it's not like knowing this card was left is motivating me in any way. It's sure not the worst thing to happen today. Like the demonstrations and the threats and so forth didn't get me moving, but a card left on a grave will? Nah. 

Removing things from a grave is wrong, first of all, so we shouldn't do it for that reason. Practically speaking, it's going to horrify and anger quite a lot of people, and do far more harm than good. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by katilac

[Guest]

1 minute ago, WildflowerMom said:

@Quill, did you google?   I found this book.  

I didn’t google it, but I dont think that book is relevant. This grave isnt really famous, for one thing. It is a small, though very historical town. And Maryland was divided in the war and, though it has pockets, it’s not thought of by most here as a “southern state”. 

I think “Forever Dixie” is just a saying. 

[katilac]

10 minutes ago, Quill said:

Then I think he was annoyed that he hired a “liberal” in homeschool-SAHM clothing who should obviously have been a “conservative” like him. 🙄

Soooo many people over the years getting the wrong impression of me because I homeschooled 😄

[Melissa Louise]

I gave my kid a biblical name.

Combined with homeschooling, a lot of ppl dropped us, but only after the first playdate 😂

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, katilac said:

Soooo many people over the years getting the wrong impression of me because I homeschooled 😄

Well, admittedly, if he had met me like 12 years earlier, he would have been more in the ballpark. 

Its just interesting to me that he pinned the “liberal” label on me minutes after I objected to his racial stereotyping of his “black clients” who apparently all behave as one mass and not, you know, actual individual people. 🙄 Why am I liberal because I call out that 💩? 

 

And now, ladies, I have to go make food, shower and go to sleep. And shut my chicken cop. So dont take my sudden silence to mean anything. 

[kiwik]

9 hours ago, Quill said:

Well, ftr, I don’t agree with John Stuart Mill, and creating a shrine out of a treasonous soldier’s grave *is* hurting someone else. It’s the same as the douchebags who think refusing to be vaccinated against Covid 19 is “my body my choice”. 
 

I will not put it back; it is litter. No different from when I pick up a stray McDonald’s bag and put *that* garbage where it belongs. 

Just out of curiousity.  Do you not also consider the civil war an act of treason? It looks that way from where I am.

[katilac]

5 minutes ago, kiwik said:

Just out of curiousity.  Do you not also consider the civil war an act of treason? It looks that way from where I am.

I think she is saying that it was treason, and thus the soldier was treasonous. Only giving my impression bc she said she was leaving for a while. 

[kiwik]

5 hours ago, livetoread said:

Yeah, everyone here knows it still goes on, but there is certainly no consensus on how important it is that it still goes on.

To be fair those of us from outside the US don't really know.  I ignore most such threads because they are meaningless to me and only got on this one by accident.

[MercyA]

59 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

C'mon. A note on a grave is a way to recruit rather than, say, the internet? 

I'm off to look for my pics of my letter on SP's grave. Humans are weird. We do weird things. 

I can totally buy this actually. Both because humans ARE weird, and because a surprising number of people in my area still aren't internet savvy at all. 

[MercyA]

30 minutes ago, katilac said:

Soooo many people over the years getting the wrong impression of me because I homeschooled 😄

Right? First everyone thought I could sew, and then everybody thought I was a young-earth creationist. 

The last two years have cleared things up for people somewhat. 😉 

[Stacia]

29 minutes ago, katilac said:

People send "letters to heaven" all the time.

?

50 minutes ago, Quill said:

I actually had a pretty good idea what the card contained on the inside, because on the outside, the part that could be seen by anybody without touching it, was this: 

“To the Amazing Confederate army and...(unreadable part due to damage)...Silent Warriors.” And a sticker of the Confederate Flag. And a 💜

So really, it seems like a good point raised by @Stacia and a few others: surely the letter-leaver didn’t expect *the soldier* to read it. More likely, they were hoping some other I-Heart-the-Confederate-Flag people would, at minimum, feel validated, or possibly would open it up and get in contact with her. 

Re: the comment about Miss Manners & not reading it....

Since the inscription was damaged, maybe it was something along the lines of "To the Amazing Confederate army and even to those Whiny, Uppity, Yankee Union army scum supporters who we wish were Silent Warriors". 🤷‍♀️ I mean, how's Quill going to know if she doesn't read it?

I still don't see why we aren't supposed to read a letter or note left on a grave, especially because it was seemingly addressed to a group in general, not the specific person in the grave. And even if it had been addressed to the specific person in the grave, I think (as Pam pointed out) there is an expectation that someone will read it because it's in a public space. (Heck, all kinds of private correspondence gets seen because that's how we learn historical information, read books that are posthumous publishing of correspondence between people, & so on....)

 

[kiwik]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

You think people have the right to remove things from graves? I don't even know what to say to that. Leaving flowers, cards, and other remembrances on graves is a long-standing and well-accepted tradition in American society. I know of no corresponding tradition related to removing things from graves. 

Do you really think you have the right to remove things from graves? You go around removing cards from graves? Flowers? Photographs?  

The person might be looking for a platform or like-minded people, who knows? I've never in my life known anyone to remove a card from a stranger's grave and read it, so it seems like a might ineffective method, but no matter: that's on her. 

Also, that's an interesting way to welcome a new poster. They didn't start a controversial thread, they merely responded to one, which is absolutely okay (I mean, it's also okay if a new poster wants to start with a controversial thread, just not recommended). 

Because one does not read correspondence not addressed to one (I had to switch on my Emily Post vibes for this one). 

No, you do not read it if it blows off the grave either, nor any other correspondence that might be blown down the street. In the graveyard, you turn it in to the office, or dispose if it if it is beyond saving. If not in a graveyard, 

If someone writes something and leaves it on a placard or easel facing the public, or taped to the headstone, then you can assume they are okay with anyone reading it. Otherwise, assume not/

In general I would agree.  But if you suddenly saw a swastika flag on a Jewish persons grave or a WW2 soldiers grave, pictures on naked kids on Alan's grave, would you remove them? What about graffiti? I think the answer is probably to report concerns to the appropriate authorities but that can take time.  You shouldn't read mail not intended for you though if only so you don't read something awful.

[Melissa Louise]

7 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I can totally buy this actually. Both because humans ARE weird, and because a surprising number of people in my area still aren't internet savvy at all. 

Wow, really?! 

[Wheres Toto]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

 

Interesting topic for new posters to dive right into.  😕

I was thinking this too.  This particular thread seems to have more brand new posters than we'd usually see on a random post.  

Personally, I probably wouldn't have removed the letter or even looked at it at all (although maybe with the previous context of the flag, I would have been more curious than usual), but I don't see it as the same as taking a wreath or flowers.   It was paper that had been damaged by weather already, that didn't belong there, that was obviously not left by someone who knew or had a close relationship with the deceased.     I don't see the big deal about removing it, it wasn't some sacred object.

I do understand why it was shared.  A surprising number of people, and yes even here on these boards, seem oblivious to the racism and calls for sedition that are out there.  

[kiwik]

26 minutes ago, katilac said:

I think she is saying that it was treason, and thus the soldier was treasonous. Only giving my impression bc she said she was leaving for a while. 

Sorry I meant the War of Independence not the civil war.  I had it on my brain.  From where I am the War of Independence looks like a act of treason (and also like a civil war which is why we always have to think a bit when asked the date).

[MercyA]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

We're talking about soldiers here.  Is there some assumption that all the soldiers of the side that won were angelic?  Isn't it more likely that the soldiers on both sides had more in common than not?  But it's OK to honor the Union soldiers' graves (and US soldiers in other wars that the US government entered), but not the Confederate soldiers' graves?  Just based on which current rhetoric we believe regarding the war / leaders of the time?

Speaking for myself, no, definitely not. I think both sides were in the wrong and that killing one's own countrymen is especially horrific, no matter who is doing it. 

I personally wouldn't honor anyone's grave just because they were a soldier. It makes no sense to me; I know others feel differently. 

To me this isn't about what happened then. It's about what's happening RIGHT NOW. It's the Confederate flags flying off the back of trucks in my little northern county. The flags aren't placed there to commemorate history but to send an ugly, hateful message. 

Anyone who thinks support of the Confederacy *now* isn't almost always linked to racism has their head in the sand.

Edited January 5, 2022 by MercyA

[MercyA]

5 minutes ago, kiwik said:

Sorry I meant the War of Independence not the civil war.  I had it on my brain.  From where I am the War of Independence looks like an act of treason (and also like a civil war which is why we always have to think a bit when asked the date).

I think it was not only treasonous but unscriptural and immoral. 

[MercyA]

21 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Wow, really?! 

Truly!

I have a college-educated girlfriend, above average intelligence, about five years younger than me, and she doesn't know how to Google easily. She asks me to find things for her online.

I was just in the post office the other day and someone in her 50's (?) was asking about obtaining a new passport. She was saying that she "doesn't do things online" and wanted them to tell her what physical address she could go to for a passport. 

Many older people here don't truly understand what a website is. They get email messages and texts and social media posts and info from shopping sites all mixed up. They can't tell you where they saw something, other than "on the computer." 

People sometimes still send chain letters through the mail. 🙂 

Edited January 5, 2022 by MercyA

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Truly!

I have a college-educated girlfriend, above average intelligence, about five years younger than me, and she doesn't know how to Google easily. She asks me to find things for her online.

I was just in the post office the other day and someone in her 50's (?) was asking about obtaining a new passport. She was saying that she "doesn't do things online" and wanted them to tell her what physical address she could go to for a passport. 

Many older people here don't truly understand what a website is. They get email messages and texts and social media posts and info from shopping sites all mixed up. They can't tell you where they saw something, other than "on the computer." 

People sometimes still send chain letters through the mail. 🙂 

Oh my. 

This is very different to where I live.

I honestly don't know any seniors who aren't online. Rural/city thing? 

[barnwife]

I am *mind blown* that anyone here on WTM is okay with removing objects from a grave for which they are not responsible/isn't a relative. 

I can't say any more, because I am too sleep deprived to form coherent, polite responses. But, yes, removing things from a grave is wrong to me.

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

There is truth in this, even if I don't really want to admit it.   It's easier to say, 'confederate bad, union good'.   My guess is that soldiers who've died recently in the Middle East conflicts will be up for ridicule 100 years from now.   Which is sad to me, even if I'm not military-minded at all.   If we mock conf soldiers, I guess we need to mock Vietnam vets, afghan-war vets, hell, maybe all service members, especially current ones since they are more aware now than any others what they're fighting for and representing. 

I don't think anyone here is mocking the soldiers.  But, I think there is a difference between understanding that people can be the victim of circumstances, and used as pawns, and praising them for standing up to tyranny.  

I can imagine walking in the graveyard that Quill has described, and shedding a tear at the thought of a young man dying that far from home, in a terrible war.  I can't imagine singing the praises of the cause he was fighting for.  

[Melissa Louise]

@Quill

You know this would make a good story, right? The whole recruitment-by-grave thing, and then a band of rebels, led by an author like character, taking down the ring? 

You could even have a character ( in the main character's bookclub, maybe?) who wouldn't read the letter and either gets recruited by letter after she gets kicked out of book club, or undergoes some crisis that makes her understand she should have read it. 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I don't think anyone here is mocking the soldiers.  But, I think there is a difference between understanding that people can be the victim of circumstances, and used as pawns, and praising them for standing up to tyranny.  

I can imagine walking in the graveyard that Quill has described, and shedding a tear at the thought of a young man dying that far from home, in a terrible war.  I can't imagine singing the praises of the cause he was fighting for.  

I live somewhere where singing the praises of a war defeat, where young and working class men were slaughtered by the foolish decisions of British aristocrats and a craven national government, is in the national curriculum! 

Maybe that's why the letter seems meh to me. 

 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

I live somewhere where singing the praises of a war defeat, where young and working class men were slaughtered by the foolish decisions of British aristocrats and a craven national government, is in the national curriculum! 

Maybe that's why the letter seems meh to me. 

 

I don't see the connection between those two.  Are you saying that because you and your fellow Australians disagreed with the winning side in this particular war, you think that the cause of slavery might be just too?  

The letter didn't just praise the soldier.  It praised the cause that he was sent to die for, which was slavery.  It was a letter praising slavery.  I can't see that as meh.  

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

 Are you saying that because you and your fellow Australians disagreed with the winning side in this particular war, you think that the cause of slavery might be just too?  

I'm assuming that's not a serious question. It's also kinda nasty. Wow.

No, I'm saying that a letter by some random seems not urgent to me as propaganda, when compared to the experience of state sanctioned propaganda. Rightly or wrongly. 

PS. I don't 'disagree' with the 'winner' either. Everyone loses in war. 

This question has left a really nasty taste in my mouth. 

 

[Ceilingfan]

Mercy can vouch that I at least am not at all new, fwiw

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

This question has left a really nasty taste in my mouth. 

 

So did your comment.  

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Ceilingfan said:

Mercy can vouch that I at least am not at all new, fwiw

My first ever post here was in a Tiger Mom thread, decrying child abuse, lol. I'm sure ppl raised an eyebrow about that! 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So did your comment.  

You clearly did not understand my comment. It is possible to ask for clarification before jumping to accusations of support for slavery.

We're done. 

[katilac]

3 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So did your comment.  

I think you are completely misunderstanding her comment. She didn't say anything that reasonably leads to the conclusions you're making.

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

You clearly did not understand my comment. It is possible to ask for clarification before jumping to accusations of support for slavery.

We're done. 

No, I didn't.  I still don't understand it.  I think that telling someone that something they are legitimately upset about, such as pro-slavery propaganda being placed in the community where they live is "meh" because you think some lesson plan on an other continent is worse, is incredibly rude.  

But I am fine with being done with you.  

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, katilac said:

I think you are completely misunderstanding her comment. She didn't say anything that reasonably leads to the conclusions you're making.

I've put the poster on ignore. A shame. She has a lot on her plate. It's for the best we just skip over that.

I was saying that to me, I don't have a big response to an individual letter from a private person, because I'm used to objecting to the travesty of war propaganda at a bigger scale, that of national government and curriculum. 

[gardenmom5]

8 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

@Quill I read it as the card was by someone who is a descendent if a soldier, not of this particular soldier.  Did I read it wrong? 

 

8 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

That's what I thought, too.   I wonder why this particular grave?   Is he the only soldier there?

My impression was it was her own ancestor.  People do know their ancestors - I've traced several lines back to 17th century Connecticut.  (and earlier in Europe.) I've cried over my great-grandmother's grave (even though she died long before I was born), I've visited graves of ancestors a couple more generations back.  I have a real desire to go visit a 3ggm's grave.  So - just because it's been 160 years doesn't mean the card placer didn't know if it was her ancestor or not.

[MercyA]

35 minutes ago, Ceilingfan said:

Mercy can vouch that I at least am not at all new, fwiw

Absolutely. Ceilingfan has been here for many years. 

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

My impression was it was her own ancestor.  People do know their ancestors - I've traced several lines back to 17th century Connecticut.  (and earlier in Europe.) I've cried over my great-grandmother's grave (even though she died long before I was born), I've visited graves of ancestors a couple more generations back.  I have a real desire to go visit a 3ggm's grave.  So - just because it's been 160 years doesn't mean the card placer didn't know if it was her ancestor or not.

But do you see that she was relating to the Confederate part of her ancestor? 

[Pam in CT]

re efficiency (or not!) of this kind of graveside adornment at recruitment to modern-day white supremacist cause

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

C'mon. A note on a grave is a way to recruit rather than, say, the internet? ..

 

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

I can totally buy this actually. Both because humans ARE weird, and because a surprising number of people in my area still aren't internet savvy at all. 

Probably not a whole lotta folks following up snail mail with contact info they pick up graveside, I agree.

I guess how I *could* envision it playing as useful to recruitment, is aiming for the Outraged Social Media!! that gets briskly circulated amongst friends and families, or (even better) goes viral.

That instead of posting on a nice semi-insulated somewhat-hard-to-algorithm site like this one, the Quill character who comes upon the letter takes a picture of it, posts it on Facebook along with a little paragraph about her musings. Wherein Aunt Nancy and Cousin Sue "like" her post, and Uncle Sam and Forgotten High School Classmate Andrew post furious responses, and College Friend Anne "shares" it with her 432 "friends" along with another para with her own response.  And every single person who "engages" with it feeds the words "Confederacy" and "Dixie" and "white supremacy" into their respective personal engagement info. And thereafter that behavioral data, thumbs up or thumbs down, fuels what "affinity groups" are offered up as possibly of interest, of what "news" articles are offered up as click-bait, of which grainy memes get thrust forward in line. Who gets offered up as "Possible Friends You May Know" and etc.

Or better yet, Quill tosses her picture into Twitter and it goes Outrage Viral.

Or best of all, Quill *does* post it on NextDoor and the neighbors, pro and con, can *very efficiently* sort one another out into neatly selected affinities.

 

So while I agree that it's unlikely that Confederate Letter Dropper expects an avalanche of snail mail response... I can see a *possibility* that it was dropped in hopes of eliciting some response, somehow. 

I hope that someone gets my message in a bottle, and etc.

[Ceilingfan]

And I get that the intention of the symbols of the cross is the exact opposite of the way I've described it; however, to at least this atheist, the way I interpret it is as a declaration of my eternal condemnation. I am not offended, nor would I ever want to remove the symbol. But the philosophybro article was the first time I'd realized that I have been conditioned to accept one kind of thought (that people like me will suffer eternal torture) as acceptable under the guise of first amendment freedom, and the second thought (racist ideas) as unacceptable, though both are legal, both are equally wrong (to me), and both are just thoughts.

Since when did I learn to believe in such a thing as wrongthink?

[Drama Llama]

18 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

My impression was it was her own ancestor.  People do know their ancestors - I've traced several lines back to 17th century Connecticut.  (and earlier in Europe.) I've cried over my great-grandmother's grave (even though she died long before I was born), I've visited graves of ancestors a couple more generations back.  I have a real desire to go visit a 3ggm's grave.  So - just because it's been 160 years doesn't mean the card placer didn't know if it was her ancestor or not.

I would assume one would mention the connection in the letter if writing to their own ancestor?  
 

[Melissa Louise]

8 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re efficiency (or not!) of this kind of graveside adornment at recruitment to modern-day white supremacist cause

 

Probably not a whole lotta folks following up snail mail with contact info they pick up graveside, I agree.

I guess how I *could* envision it playing as useful to recruitment, is aiming for the Outraged Social Media!! that gets briskly circulated amongst friends and families, or (even better) goes viral.

That instead of posting on a nice semi-insulated somewhat-hard-to-algorithm site like this one, the Quill character who comes upon the letter takes a picture of it, posts it on Facebook along with a little paragraph about her musings. Wherein Aunt Nancy and Cousin Sue "like" her post, and Uncle Sam and Forgotten High School Classmate Andrew post furious responses, and College Friend Anne "shares" it with her 432 "friends" along with another para with her own response.  And every single person who "engages" with it feeds the words "Confederacy" and "Dixie" and "white supremacy" into their respective personal engagement info. And thereafter that behavioral data, thumbs up or thumbs down, fuels what "affinity groups" are offered up as possibly of interest, of what "news" articles are offered up as click-bait, of which grainy memes get thrust forward in line. Who gets offered up as "Possible Friends You May Know" and etc.

Or better yet, Quill tosses her picture into Twitter and it goes Outrage Viral.

Or best of all, Quill *does* post it on NextDoor and the neighbors, pro and con, can *very efficiently* sort one another out into neatly selected affinities.

 

So while I agree that it's unlikely that Confederate Letter Dropper expects an avalanche of snail mail response... I can see a *possibility* that it was dropped in hopes of eliciting some response, somehow. 

I hope that someone gets my message in a bottle, and etc.

Is it wrong I really want to read these books? 

(It's ok, I know it's wrong. But just as an aside, I think fiction is an awesome way to bring people with you. I'm only half joking when I suggest Quill does something fictional with it.)

[Frances]

14 minutes ago, Ceilingfan said:

And I get that the intention of the symbols of the cross is the exact opposite of the way I've described it; however, to at least this atheist, the way I interpret it is as a declaration of my eternal condemnation. I am not offended, nor would I ever want to remove the symbol. But the philosophybro article was the first time I'd realized that I have been conditioned to accept one kind of thought (that people like me will suffer eternal torture) as acceptable under the guise of first amendment freedom, and the second thought (racist ideas) as unacceptable, though both are legal, both are equally wrong (to me), and both are just thoughts.

Since when did I learn to believe in such a thing as wrongthink?

As a former Christian and current agnostic/atheist, I find that interpretation of the cross interesting. While certainly some Christians think all non-believers (and many believers because they are not the right type of Christian) face eternal damnation, others do not. I certainly never thought that when I was a Christian. Most of the Christians I know best now do not think it.

As to whether the thoughts are equal, I don’t agree. People can choose whether or not to be Christians and since you are an atheist, you don’t believe you are eternally damned. People can’t choose their skin color or how people treat them due to their skin color. They also can’t make racism go away or not affect them by not believing in it.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Frances

[Murphy101]

You do know that cemetery caretakers, paid or not, take this stuff and throw it away, right? It’s paper liter. Leaving a paper note is not any less liter than a grocery receipt. It’s an unsightly nasty mess before long if it stays in the elements and a faster unsightly mess if it doesn’t stay because it gets blown away to wherever.   Cemetery caretakers do the same to flowers and such. People bring them wrapped in plastic and leave them. It just becomes liter faster than most people think. Or they bring plastic flowers and it’s the same thing. Bc no matter how much the person swears they made sure the plastic flowers wouldn’t move - they eventually do. And someone else has to deal with the trash. Most cemeteries try to be respectful and wait until the cemetery is closed to deal with it. But what do people really think is going to happen to all that stuff? Can you imagine how cemeteries would look if it all just piled up where it blew against trees, fences and other tombstones? Or the hard scraping to get it off stones after it has soaked and turned to papier-mâché?