Thanks

[fraidycat]

3 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

To me the second person sounds like her.  She is definitely anxious about being unloved or her kids being unloved or her kids not “winning” at the game of life.  

I guess part of my problem is that I don’t understand how believing it to be narcissism vs PPA changes my response.  Does it matter?  I live in her father’s house, so I can’t just disinvite her.  Plus I love her kids.

No, it doesn't change anything for you, I was just answering your question about whether you would have seen it (narc) before now and the answer was, not necessarily. I think either way, you just recognize that neither type of person is healthy, so you can emotionally disengage from SIL and only communicate with her on a surface level, on an as-needed basis. It's basically acceptance that she will probably always blame her stuff on you and others and letting go of letting her opinion affect you.

In this instance, she did intentionally hurt you, so you should feel anger about that. But her then blaming you for trying to "hurt her" by offering the whole family a safer choice for mass is, in my opinion, only worthy of an eyeroll and a "whatever". Disengagement. Recognition that the delusional thoughts have taken over and everyone loses when that happens.

To circle back and answer your original question: "if we were a functional family, would what I did have been out of line?"

No, what you did was not out of line. Not even a little bit, but she has you questioning it anyway with her irrational thoughts and behavior. 🙁

[Faith-manor]

Rosie and Corraleno nailed it! So just read and be relieved. SIL can pound sand, and take it up with her husband.

[JustEm]

I have an in-law who has a lot of anxiety that sounds like how you described you sil's a few posts back. Her and I used to be close. Close enough to go on a vacation with just her, my brother, my dh, and me and I wouldn't do that with any of my other siblings' spouses. 

It seemed like after each child she had her anxiety got worse and her view of fairness amongst the cousins intensified. Our friendship started deteriorating about a year before the pandemic but it is completely non existent now. She has no interest in me and my family. 

I love her and hope one day we'll be able to have a family relationship again but the friendship is likely just gone.

So, for you, I wouldn't necessarily assume your sil is a narcissist. Sounds more the her anxiety has a major hold on her and that her selfish inclinations and insecurities are being fed by anxiety.

[J-rap]

No, you did nothing wrong.

That said, since you know she gets triggered easily and twists interpretations of things, I'd probably not be reaching out to her/her family with suggestions anymore.  

[WildflowerMom]

You don’t need to answer, but is this a familiar mental health issue that is popping up in other family members?   IOW, this may be mental illness and often there’s a strong genetic component.   Are you seeing her issues among other family members who are struggling as well?

[Carol in Cal.]

6 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

To me the second person sounds like her.  She is definitely anxious about being unloved or her kids being unloved or her kids not “winning” at the game of life.  

I guess part of my problem is that I don’t understand how believing it to be narcissism vs PPA changes my response.  Does it matter?  I live in her father’s house, so I can’t just disinvite her.  Plus I love her kids.

I don’t know that it should change your response, but it might change your expectations a bit in that PPA is more likely to be transient than Narcissism.

[ktgrok]

Anxiety can make people behave irrationaly and badly when there is a change in plans of any sort. (my ASD son and myself are like that)

Even good changes are seen as dangerous and a reason to freak out. 

Once, we surprised my son with his favorite dinner and he had a total meltdown and acted like we'd done something horrible, just because it wasn't what was planned. 

Both this and the previous incident you mentioned involved last minute changes to plans - minor ones, but still changes, and still not what she'd planned on. I'd bet that is what the instigating factor is. 

Any chance she's on the spectrum? Not that everyone who has trouble with changes in plans is on the spectrum, but it can go along with it. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by ktgrok

[KungFuPanda]

I think it’s adorable that you feel guilty about presenting your family with a safer mass option. 😄

[Drama Llama]

5 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

You don’t need to answer, but is this a familiar mental health issue that is popping up in other family members?   IOW, this may be mental illness and often there’s a strong genetic component.   Are you seeing her issues among other family members who are struggling as well?

There are definitely other family members who struggle including one who is far less functional, but while there are some similarities there are also a lot of differences in how they are impacted.

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Anxiety can make people behave irrationaly and badly when there is a change in plans of any sort. (my ASD son and myself are like that)

Even good changes are seen as dangerous and a reason to freak out. 

Once, we surprised my son with his favorite dinner and he had a total meltdown and acted like we'd done something horrible, just because it wasn't what was planned. 

Both this and the previous incident you mentioned involved last minute changes to plans - minor ones, but still changes, and still not what she'd planned on. I'd bet that is what the instigating factor is. 

Any chance she's on the spectrum? Not that everyone who has trouble with changes in plans is on the spectrum, but it can go along with it. 

So, ironically one of the things I was annoyed with (not the major thing a little side thing) is that she let me know, indirectly at 10 p.m. on the 23rd that she had changed her mind and was bringing her family of 7 to the dinner I was planning for Christmas Eve.  

I don’t think she is ASD.  I do think that she is overwhelmed by kids and her perfectionism, and that can make change hard too.  However, I do think that if we had a typical relationship, when the plans for dinner changed, it would have been ok for me to say “do you want to come to mass too?  We are doing X”

[Drama Llama]

4 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I don’t know that it should change your response, but it might change your expectations a bit in that PPA is more likely to be transient than Narcissism.

I guess that when I think of it as PPA, I think “she’s sick, she’s overwhelmed, how can I help her, what supports can I offer?”  Just like if she had another medical issue.

i am not sure that response makes sense for narcissism.  Maybe it does?

[Carol in Cal.]

5 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I guess that when I think of it as PPA, I think “she’s sick, she’s overwhelmed, how can I help her, what supports can I offer?”  Just like if she had another medical issue.

i am not sure that response makes sense for narcissism.  Maybe it does?

Narcissism, to me, is a moral issue, fundamentally dishonest and mean, and a chosen set of behaviors to get one’s own way all the time.  So, no, I think that that response does not make sense for narcissism—it just reinforces it.  

Having said that, I would not want to let a narcissist control me to the extent that I’m uncharacteristically unkind, any more than I would want them to control me to be at their beck and call.  So I walk a really careful line with the narc.s I know—I respond quite slowly, I think about what normal is and isn’t rather a lot, and I decide carefully what I am and am not will to do or to put up with.  IME narcissists are great at feeling sorry for themselves when they really shouldn’t, and at making others feel sorry for them, too.  So it’s a difficult line to walk.

[catz]

Ugh, 7 extra for dinner suddenly with 24 hours notice?  That would be a polite version of "no, I'm sorry my shopping is already done unless you're packing enough food for 7" from me.  Wow.  

[Carol in Cal.]

14 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So, ironically one of the things I was annoyed with (not the major thing a little side thing) is that she let me know, indirectly at 10 p.m. on the 23rd that she had changed her mind and was bringing her family of 7 to the dinner I was planning for Christmas Eve.  

I don’t think she is ASD.  I do think that she is overwhelmed by kids and her perfectionism, and that can make change hard too.  However, I do think that if we had a typical relationship, when the plans for dinner changed, it would have been ok for me to say “do you want to come to mass too?  We are doing X”

To me that is not really a little side thing.

7 more people for dinner when I’ve already shopped and started pre-prep would be pretty big in my world.  Just saying.

I probably would roll with it the first time it happened, but after that I’d initiate a talk about needing to know for sure no less than a week in advance who is coming, barring a complete physical illness onset.  And if it became a pattern I would seriously think about what to do.  It’s very difficult because some people are just flaky.  But fewer people than expected are a bit easier to roll with that more people than expected.  I’m not sure how I would handle that, but it might be, future invitations would say, if I don’t hear from you by xx/xx I will assume you are not coming, but also, plan for a few more people than have actually RSVPEd.

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Carol in Cal.

[Katy]

12 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I guess that when I think of it as PPA, I think “she’s sick, she’s overwhelmed, how can I help her, what supports can I offer?”  Just like if she had another medical issue.

i am not sure that response makes sense for narcissism.  Maybe it does?

To me if someone is temporarily mentally ill I try to have more patience and forgiveness than typical, but I'm also going to gently point out the truth.

If someone has a personality disorder it's easier for me to accept that they are likely to permanently be a terrible person.  I think this is likely a combination of personality, genetics, and being raised in a way that didn't work for them when they were really little, and it cannot be changed.  I expect them to behave badly all the time. I draw clear boundaries and don't feel guilty. I'm a bit harsh about not putting up with nonsense, especially with regard to my children. That tends to make those people avoid me, which is good for everyone.  I would much rather they avoid me and be afraid of me calling them on their BS than let them get away with it than continually be a victim.  It took years of dealing with abuse from a few people and drawing firm boundaries to get there though. I used to walk on eggshells a lot.

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

To me that is not really a little side thing.

7 fewer people for dinner when I’ve already shopped and started pre-prep would be pretty big in my world.  Just saying.

It was 7 more people, not 7 fewer.  She had declined my invitation multiple times.  If they'd backed out, due to covid, or due to being overwhelmed, I would understand.

But, I was angry about something else.  That was a predictable annoyance.  I actually had heard that they were probably coming through the family grapevine, so I shopped with them in mind.  

7 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Ugh, 7 extra for dinner suddenly with 24 hours notice?  That would be a polite version of "no, I'm sorry my shopping is already done unless you're packing enough food for 7" from me.  Wow.  

So, this is where the fact that I live in her father's house complicates things.  It's really important to him, and to GFIL, that the family gathers.  I can't tell him he can't invite his own daughter and grandchildren over.  

Plus, like I said, I'd already shopped assuming they were coming.  So, it was just annoying.  

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

She had declined my invitation multiple times. 

That was a predictable annoyance.  I actually had heard that they were probably coming through the family grapevine, so I shopped with them in mind.  

So, this is where the fact that I live in her father's house complicates things.  It's really important to him, and to GFIL, that the family gathers.  I can't tell him he can't invite his own daughter and grandchildren over.  

Plus, like I said, I'd already shopped assuming they were coming.  So, it was just annoying.  

But she couldn't have known that you had already anticipated her last minute coming. This is NOT how normal families behave towards one another. At the very least, that person would volunteer to contribute in a proportionate way to the meal.

Edited December 26, 2021 by regentrude

[Carol in Cal.]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

But she couldn't have known that you had already anticipated her last minute coming. This is NOT how normal families behave towards one another.

Well, some people are flaky like that.  It’s bad but you can’t count on changing them.  You can state your preferences repeatedly but you still have to figure out what to do when they do a flaky thing.  

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Well, some people are flaky like that.  It’s bad but you can’t count on changing them.  You can state your preferences repeatedly but you still have to figure out what to do when they do a flaky thing.  

It's "flaky" not to show up when one said one would. Announcing 7 *additional* people for a dinner on short notice and expect to be fed isn't flaky - it's inconsiderate aka rude.

Edited December 26, 2021 by regentrude

[catz]

17 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

 

So, this is where the fact that I live in her father's house complicates things.  It's really important to him, and to GFIL, that the family gathers.  I can't tell him he can't invite his own daughter and grandchildren over.  

Plus, like I said, I'd already shopped assuming they were coming.  So, it was just annoying.  

Ugh - it's amazing you are anticipating the flakiness and the weirdness ahead of time but I'd still be looking for somewhere to lay out a boundary.  Like "Oh I'm sorry I already did my grocery shopping since you told me you couldn't make it.   Maybe you'd like to swing over to watch the football game after and have dessert."  or whatever.  

ETA - I also wouldn't hesitate to start putting out an RSVP date.  "Can everyone let me know by Monday the 10th about dinner on the 20th?".   It almost sounds like she was holding that info on purpose if she was talking to other family members about coming.  Reeks of intentional button pushing.

Edited December 26, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[KungFuPanda]

The relationship with this SIL is severely dysfunctional.  It's borderline abusive.  She pouts and OP DOES ALL THE WORK ALL THE TIME.  She repeatedly treats the OP like a servant.  Is there EVER any reciprocity?  She's reliant on OP as though they are co-parenting.  It's weird and OP is enabling it because she doesn't want to make anyone feel bad.  The boundaries in this relationship are REALLY messed up.  It's not a good pattern for all of those kids to internalize.  Someone has to demonstrate standing up for yourself to them.  

If my daughter was living out this dynamic with her new in-laws I would be seriously alarmed for her.  It's not OK.  I don't know WHY I feel so protective of BaseballandHockey, but I feel like she's being horribly mistreated and I want to see her push back.

[Carol in Cal.]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

It's "flaky" not to show up when one said one would. Announcing 7 *additional* people for a dinner on short notice and expect to be fed isn't flaky - it's inconsiderate aka rude.

Well, I think that either of these is both flaky and rude—not doing what you said you would do is both.  It’s immensely dramatic and self-centered, too.

And, people should not be that way.  But some of them are.

It sounds like the OP had figured on this, to some extent.  It’s rotten but that’s what one must do.  

[Carol in Cal.]

1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

The relationship with this SIL is severely dysfunctional.  It's borderline abusive.  She pouts and OP DOES ALL THE WORK ALL THE TIME.  She repeatedly treats the OP like a servant.  Is there EVER any reciprocity?  She's reliant on OP as though they are co-parenting.  It's weird and OP is enabling it because she doesn't want to make anyone feel bad.  The boundaries in this relationship are REALLY messed up.  It's not a good pattern for all of those kids to internalize.  Someone has to demonstrate standing up for yourself to them.  

If my daughter was living out this dynamic with her new in-laws I would be seriously alarmed for her.  It's not OK.  I don't know WHY I feel so protective of BaseballandHockey, but I feel like she's being horribly mistreated and I want to see her push back.

It’s tricky since this is her DH’s FOO, not hers, and she is living with some of them as well.  I get why it’s hard.

I agree that the SIL is a nutcase.  Personally I would draw the boundary in helping her out, not in joint hospitality, but it would be good to have a boundary there.

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Ugh - it's amazing you are anticipating the flakiness and the weirdness ahead of time but I'd still be looking for somewhere to lay out a boundary.  Like "Oh I'm sorry I already did my grocery shopping since you told me you couldn't make it.   Maybe you'd like to swing over to watch the football game after and have dessert."  or whatever.  

ETA - I also wouldn't hesitate to start putting out an RSVP date.  "Can everyone let me know by Monday the 10th about dinner on the 20th?".   It almost sounds like she was holding that info on purpose if she was talking to other family members about coming.  Reeks of intentional button pushing.

The way it went down, I have no doubt this is true. 

I'm not looking to debate whether her behavior was appropriate.  I'm not in that much denial!  

I just want to know whether mine was. 

 

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It’s tricky since this is her DH’s FOO, not hers, and she is living with some of them as well.  I get why it’s hard.

I agree that the SIL is a nutcase.  Personally I would draw the boundary in helping her out, not in joint hospitality, but it would be good to have a boundary there.

Yeah, and also right now, DH needs me to keep the peace.  

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

The relationship with this SIL is severely dysfunctional.  It's borderline abusive.  She pouts and OP DOES ALL THE WORK ALL THE TIME.  She repeatedly treats the OP like a servant.  Is there EVER any reciprocity?  She's reliant on OP as though they are co-parenting.  It's weird and OP is enabling it because she doesn't want to make anyone feel bad.  The boundaries in this relationship are REALLY messed up.  It's not a good pattern for all of those kids to internalize.  Someone has to demonstrate standing up for yourself to them.  

If my daughter was living out this dynamic with her new in-laws I would be seriously alarmed for her.  It's not OK.  I don't know WHY I feel so protective of BaseballandHockey, but I feel like she's being horribly mistreated and I want to see her push back.

So, previously, she was kind of the princess and the pea, and there was never reciprocity.  But this weird jealousy/anger/power struggle dynamic is new.  Maybe distance made the heart fonder?  Or maybe it's PPA? 

[EKS]

4 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Or maybe it's PPA? 

What is PPA?

[Drama Llama]

Just now, EKS said:

What is PPA?

Post Partum Anxiety

[SKL]

I missed the thing about 7 people first declining and then "accepting" a dinner invitation at the last moment.

That happened in my family (only with about 12? 15? people), and it sparked a serious family feud.  The head of that household was clueless as to how this was an issue.  When he realized it made people mad, that made him so mad that he wouldn't talk to people for a long time, and he hasn't come over for that holiday since.  How we all wished we could have responded differently, in retrospect.  But it doesn't change the fact of who acted poorly in the first place.

I think that if this sort of thing happens in the future, it's OK to say "don't come [politely]" or to refuse to seat them at the table if they just show up.  "I hope you already ate, because we only have enough food for people who RSVPd.  Maybe there will be leftovers.  I think Restaurant X is open down the street."  Sounds horrible, but really.  Are these adults or not?

[Drama Llama]

51 minutes ago, SKL said:

I missed the thing about 7 people first declining and then "accepting" a dinner invitation at the last moment.

That happened in my family (only with about 12? 15? people), and it sparked a serious family feud.  The head of that household was clueless as to how this was an issue.  When he realized it made people mad, that made him so mad that he wouldn't talk to people for a long time, and he hasn't come over for that holiday since.  How we all wished we could have responded differently, in retrospect.  But it doesn't change the fact of who acted poorly in the first place.

I think that if this sort of thing happens in the future, it's OK to say "don't come [politely]" or to refuse to seat them at the table if they just show up.  "I hope you already ate, because we only have enough food for people who RSVPd.  Maybe there will be leftovers.  I think Restaurant X is open down the street."  Sounds horrible, but really.  Are these adults or not?

I'm just not in a position to do that.  I'm not going to cause that level of drama at a family gathering.  Plus, having her and her kids with us made lots of people in my family very happy.

[regentrude]

27 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I'm just not in a position to do that.  I'm not going to cause that level of drama at a family gathering.  Plus, having her and her kids with us made lots of people in my family very happy.

But can't you at least request that they * contribute *???

[Spryte]

8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But can't you at least request that they * contribute *???

Right, something like, “I’m so glad you changed your mind! It will make everyone so happy to have you all join us! I planned for X dishes to serve Y number of people, so can you pick up [insert a few easy to buy at the deli counter or prepare dishes] and maybe bring [whatever else you might need — paper products? Drinks? A healthy supply of the alcohol or other comfort food/drink you may/may not need to deal with this SIL??].”

OP, I’m so sorry that you are dealing with this kind of behavior from someone for whom you bend over backwards to make feel supported and loved. I admire the way you have shown such live and kindness to her, and would adore having a SIL like you. 

 

[WildflowerMom]

Rambly brain dump ahead, fair warning:     

Is there such thing as 'large family' therapy?   (I'm really asking, because I have no idea.).   If so, I'd look into it.   I know your plate is full, but this seems to be a really big source of discontent for you (and rightly so).      

It's hard to imagine fil not putting his foot down (or older sis) and calling out the BS.   Maybe I'm just so outspoken, but that's what I would do if I saw this behavior continuing (if I were older sis or matriarch/patriarch or whatever).    

I do think PPD or PPA is to blame for the current dysfunction or maybe has exacerbated some previously tamped down behavior and magnified it.       
 

VERY gently, it seems like you have everyone else in your dh's family at the top of the priority list.    That is not sustainable and eventually (probably sooner, rather than later) you are going to crack.    I understand loving them so much.    I was also extremely close to dh's grandmother, as in I considered her my bff.   But I could not have survived putting ds, dh, dgil, parents-in-law, sil, bil, niece, nephew, cousins, aunt & uncle at the top of an imaginary priority list without cracking under the pressure.   If *you* crack, that is what will be hardest on your kids, not not seeing their cousins, aunts & uncles constantly.     Dh is trying to recover from a break.   You do not need to be next up for one.    It is ok to put you and kids first and that's it, everyone else just falls off the list for a bit.   Dh can be next in line, but that's the end of the list.  No more people on the list!    And I'm not sure the reason for staying with in-laws (don't need to know the reason either), but maybe (again, gently) it's time to focus only on you and yours.      

[Carol in Cal.]

My brother lives across the country and a number of years ago several family members (in the narc camp) decided to visit him for Christmas.  They told everyone that they were going to do this except the narc enemies and, ironically, him.  He already had houseguests coming from his wife’s family, and when he finally found out that his own rellies were planning to attend, he told them that he did not have room for them.  Narc enemies gloated, but silently; however this was both clear though unexpressed and intolerable.  Also, the rellies, who had been making a point to visit once or twice a year because they wanted Bro’s kids to grow up knowing them, were embarrassed in front of all of their friends, and ended up getting into a big snit and not visiting for 3 years.  

People are just…so dumb.

[Drama Llama]

48 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But can't you at least request that they * contribute *???

Her MIL is staying with her, and brought some delicious challah that she made with her grandchildren.  So, they did contribute.

My husband has been home for 3 weeks.  He's working really hard to hold on to stability.  My focus needs to be on him, and on rebuilding my relationship with him, and my kids' relationship with him.  This isn't the moment for introducing chaos into my family system.  

I'll also say that the way I treat her, and others treat her, is how others in her family treat me and my kids.  Every time we need something, someone is there for us, and we have needed an enormous amount of support in the past few years, and continue to.  

 

[Meriwether]

While I wouldn't generally impose my family (7 people) on others, I wouldn't even hesitate to make a last minute decision to go to my family's holiday meal. My sister and her family couldn't come like usual this year for Thanksgiving. If they had called as they were getting on the road from 6 hours away, telling me they could make it after all, I would have been so happy. And they have 8 kids, so I would be setting up sleeping arrangements and figuring out food for 3-4 days for 10 extra people. Any extra work is so worth it if we can spend time together.

[Drama Llama]

18 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

While I wouldn't generally impose my family (7 people) on others, I wouldn't even hesitate to make a last minute decision to go to my family's holiday meal. My sister and her family couldn't come like usual this year for Thanksgiving. If they had called as they were getting on the road from 6 hours away, telling me they could make it after all, I would have been so happy. And they have 8 kids, so I would be setting up sleeping arrangements and figuring out food for 3-4 days for 10 extra people. Any extra work is so worth it if we can spend time together.

If you weren't going to visit your sister, and then something changed and you decided to, would you wait till the last minute, or tell her as soon as you knew?  

Her not telling me isn't what I'm angry about, it was a minor annoyance.  I mentioned it because someone brought up last minute changes.

ETA:  Because I said annoyed when I meant angry.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Baseballandhockey

[Dianthus]

Your kids do a lot with cousins and it sounds like you mostly enjoy the inlaws, which is really nice. Wish you could just let the drama roll off your back, but I know that's easier said than done. I agree your own family should take priority. Overall, how did your Christmas go? You asked for prayer. Did you find some peace and joy? I hope so. 

[Drama Llama]

13 minutes ago, Spirea said:

Your kids do a lot with cousins and it sounds like you mostly enjoy the inlaws, which is really nice. Wish you could just let the drama roll off your back, but I know that's easier said than done. I agree your own family should take priority. Overall, how did your Christmas go? You asked for prayer. Did you find some peace and joy? I hope so. 

We got through it.  I think I made a good Christmas for my kids.  I'm not really in a place to find joy, but it was OK.