CRT (now rebranded as Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion DEI) and DOJ involvement in school board meetings

[WildflowerMom]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

It was ONE of many random suggestions like…do read on…have an admin do it! 

But it was a suggestion.    A suggestion I never in a million years thought I'd see on this board.   

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

But it was a suggestion.    A suggestion I never in a million years thought I'd see on this board.   

So be it. I never thought I’d see parents telling their kids to betray their values for grades either.

[bibiche]

I wouldn’t go sit in a hs class, because it would change the dynamics anyway, but I would absolutely be meeting with the teacher and administrators if I had a problem with the school. This throwing the hands in the air and going on a screed against everyone who has a Ph.D in Education is odd - I don’t understand the connection - and frankly smacks of anti-intellectualism that I find disturbing, particularly on an education board.

[Roadrunner]

16 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

So be it. I never thought I’d see parents telling their kids to betray their values for grades either.

Nobody likes to be ostracized, especially not a 9th grade boy. 
I am glad you are apparently so above it all. Some of us still need to face classmates and teachers, and maybe care not to be isolated. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Nobody likes to be ostracized, especially not a 9th grade boy. 
I am glad you are apparently so above it all. Some of us still need to face classmates and teachers, and maybe care not to be isolated. 

You have zero evidence that either the teacher or peers would ostracize him and, if you were seriously concerned about that, you have the means to speak to people who can prevent that. You’ve done nothing. Having worked with lots of kids, they do not always accurately report what is happening in class. Asking basic clarifying questions is the right and appropriate role of a parent in this kind of situation. You’re basically suggesting your kid is being bullied for his views and you just sit back and watch it happen?

Edited November 21, 2021 by Sneezyone

[goldberry]

58 minutes ago, Fritz said:

As was pointed out in the original article that started this thread, there was no evidence of any real threats.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/10/07/school-boards-dont-call-fbi/6035611001/

More recently there was this guy threatening parents at a school board meeting. Maybe the DOJ is tracking him? 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10203843/Pro-CRT-parent-ex-member-black-militia-group-threatens-anti-CRT-parents.html

There have been actual threats, posted in this thread and others.  Garland specifically said that "speaking up" is not considered a threat.  You can debate if those threats should go to the FBI or be handled locally, and have a legitimate conversation about that, but denying that there are real threats is anti-factual.

And yes I think any physical threats against school board members should be investigated and tracked. 

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, bibiche said:

I wouldn’t go sit in a hs class, because it would change the dynamics anyway, but I would absolutely be meeting with the teacher and administrators if I had a problem with the school. This throwing the hands in the air and going on a screed against everyone who has a Ph.D in Education is odd - I don’t understand the connection - and frankly smacks of anti-intellectualism that I find disturbing, particularly on an education board.

I would argue that what Ed departments are producing is what is anti intellectual. I have linked somewhere a good talk about it, but I am sure you don’t care to listen. So 🤷‍♀️. 

[bibiche]

5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I would argue that what Ed departments are producing is what is anti intellectual. I have linked somewhere a good talk about it, but I am sure you don’t care to listen. So 🤷‍♀️. 

I don’t know what link you’re referring to or why you are sure I don’t care to listen. 

[goldberry]

Downgrading for having opposing opinions has no place in education.  It's real and it's a problem.  I agree with Sneezy that I would be addressing this with the administration.  And yes, I agree that it might not be very successful, but it's a worthwhile endeavor.  At the college level, the student is the one who would have to decide how far they want to take it.  I understand they don't always have the energy to fight those battles.

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, bibiche said:

I don’t know what link you’re referring to or why you are sure I don’t care to listen. 

https://www.thefire.org/so-to-speak-podcast-transcript-are-education-schools-secretly-driving-campus-censorship/

[goldberry]

I'm going to relate a personal anecdote.  I was a teacher's dream in elementary school.  Straight a's, perfect behavior etc.  I was also raised not saluting the flag in Texas schools.  One year I had a teacher who really didn't like that.  All year long I received off grades that even in elementary school I was able to understand I didn't deserve. She even made me stand in the corner one day for something totally bogus.  This was an aberration that lasted an entire year.  I talked to my mom about it, and she agreed there was nothing wrong with the work I turned in or in my behavior.  She offered to go talk to the teacher, but acknowledged that likely that wouldn't change much.   This lasted a whole year, but there were further incidents throughout.  In high school I was downgraded several times for having what teachers considered to be not-sufficiently-patriotic views.  

The reality is that teachers are humans who sometimes engage in seriously biased behavior.  In addition and far more commonly, they sometimes are less-skilled in implementing directives.  Those that oppose "social justice" being pushed by education departments don't seem to have a problem with "patriotism" and "American exceptionalism" being pushed as priorities.  Do you really think that won't filter down as well?  That less-skilled teachers won't be downgrading, pressuring and demeaning students based on their views?  

Edited November 21, 2021 by goldberry

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Fritz said:

The problem is not saying anything is exactly what they are counting on. This having to play the game will continue for your child all the way through college. No one should have to pretend to believe or to endorse theories or beliefs they do not share just appease some teacher/professor to get a good grade. 

From the article:

 If you want to bring a new world into existence, it seems—a good place to start is with other people’s kids. 

I think that highly depends on the college and professor and it’s not correct to make such a sweeping generalization. My son was in the honors college at a very liberal university. The main honors college requirement were lots of reading, writing, and discussion intensive humanities classes. In my son’s experience, the professors loved, loved, loved students with different viewpoints and actively encouraged students to look at things from different perspectives. Without a doubt, some of the amazing opportunities my son was given were precisely because he did not hide his different views and beliefs.

[Pam in CT]

re fortitude required to take positions contrary to (what students believe to be) what teachers want to hear

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

...My opinions were universally contrary in high school and I learned to defend them with argument, not make assumptions about what people did/didn’t want to hear from me or would or wouldn’t accept for a grade. If you have convictions, you need to learn to advance and defend and persuade based on them. Not cower. What a horrible life lesson. I even wrote one of my college admissions essays  disagreeing with the premise of the prompt. No one batted an eyelash.

Right. My deeply held hope as a parent was/is that my offspring have the fortitude of convictions, the reasoning power, and the expressive skill to articulate and defend their perspectives in long form even in the face of disagreement.

Without resorting either to retrenchment / retreat / avoidance / withdrawal, all of which to me registers as a form of cowardice.  Without hiding behind anonymity / trolling / sniping & running, all of which ALSO register to me as a different form of cowardice.

That said...

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

...10th/11th is when I began saying whatever I wanted to in my writing. I definitely wasn’t comfortable as a brand new high schooler.

I agree with this.

It takes a degree of maturity that I personally did not have in 9th grade, and that 2/3 of my kids did not have in 9th grade.  It takes a competence in writing that one of my kids *still* doesn't, truly, have. And sure, with some less-great teachers (particularly in combination with less-than-great writing) it could take a willingness to deal with a modest markdown in grade. Which then provides another important learning opportunity, how one constructively appeals and rectifies an injustice.

All those capacities -- developing the backbone, developing the communication skills, developing the tools of advocacy in the face of injustice, developing the resiliency to go on to do it all over again... will serve the kid far better in the next phase of life, than retreat into simmering angry "adjustment" to what they believe a less-than-perfect teacher "wants."

(And I will amplify, from my own student experience and even more so from that of my kid whose first Imma blow this stoopid prompt that I hate out of the water paper, in response to a prompt on the Odyssey she felt was simultaneously "trite" and "elitist,"  was to do a double-length scene-by-scene analysis contrasting Odysseus' trials to ET's as they each made their way home, which she submitted with shaking fear and loathing to a teacher she described as "an immovable artifact..."

... teachers Very Often surprise resentment-fueled kids. Extremely often.  A hallmark of adolescence is, they don't read other people all that accurately.)

 

 

10 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Downgrading for having opposing opinions has no place in education.  It's real and it's a problem.  I agree with Sneezy that I would be addressing this with the administration.  And yes, I agree that it might not be very successful, but it's a worthwhile endeavor.  At the college level, the student is the one who would have to decide how far they want to take it.  I understand they don't always have the energy to fight those battles.

I agree with this as well.

But, the same is true with addressing ANY injustice in ANY context. We shouldn't have to, there is very often real cost to the effort, and...

... (witness both the content and the backlash herein, whichever "side" you're on...)

... Kids today, like kids in Sneezy's day before and mine before that and like every generation back to the beginning of time... had best learn to develop the backbone, and the skills, and the perseverance, and the resiliency to try. 

Better than simmering with resentment in a hideyhole.

[Frances]

18 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

ITA. In a conservative community, my approach/recommendation would be leaving breadcrumbs around to show/demonstrate that you're a safe person in the event a student *wants* to talk. Stalking students is bizarre. Teachers can err too far in many directions. That's the entire point of ongoing training.

Have you seen anything in the national news about the controversy in a conservative community here? One school board banned teachers from displaying anything they deemed political, such as BLM or LGBTQ related posters. They also recently fired the superintendent in a surprise last minute move at a board meeting.

https://www.opb.org/article/2021/11/04/newberg-teachers-sue-district-school-board-members-over-political-image-ban-in-schools/

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Fritz said:

So much this! 

Sadly, Bill hasn't woken up to the fact the DNC has left him and many others behind. I love that they continue to believe that college educated WW will continue to vote for them. I know quite a few that are now fully awake and not interested in continuing to vote for the DNC.

Fortunately there are also plenty of lifelong Rs who will never again vote for anyone who anyone who continues to support the attempts of our last president to undermine and overthrow our democratic norms and institutions. And at least right now, that leaves with them very few Rs to vote for, since most have fully embraced the idea that the ends justify any means and there is no moral line that cannot be crossed.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Back in the day (over 30 years ago) I would write down what the teacher taught (proving that I knew the “material “) and then I would write my rebuttal. It was extra work but it was important to me to be true to what I believed. 
 

My teacher hated me but I got excellent grades. 

[WildflowerMom]

17 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re fortitude required to take positions contrary to (what students believe to be) what teachers want to hear

Right. My deeply held hope as a parent was/is that my offspring have the fortitude of convictions, the reasoning power, and the expressive skill to articulate and defend their perspectives in long form even in the face of disagreement.

Without resorting either to retrenchment / retreat / avoidance / withdrawal, all of which to me registers as a form of cowardice.  Without hiding behind anonymity / trolling / sniping & running, all of which ALSO register to me as a different form of cowardice.

That said...

I agree with this.

It takes a degree of maturity that I personally did not have in 9th grade, and that 2/3 of my kids did not have in 9th grade.  It takes a competence in writing that one of my kids *still* doesn't, truly, have. And sure, with some less-great teachers (particularly in combination with less-than-great writing) it could take a willingness to deal with a modest markdown in grade. Which then provides another important learning opportunity, how one constructively appeals and rectifies an injustice.

All those capacities -- developing the backbone, developing the communication skills, developing the tools of advocacy in the face of injustice, developing the resiliency to go on to do it all over again... will serve the kid far better in the next phase of life, than retreat into simmering angry "adjustment" to what they believe a less-than-perfect teacher "wants."

(And I will amplify, from my own student experience and even more so from that of my kid whose first Imma blow this stoopid prompt that I hate out of the water paper, in response to a prompt on the Odyssey she felt was simultaneously "trite" and "elitist,"  was to do a double-length scene-by-scene analysis contrasting Odysseus' trials to ET's as they each made their way home, which she submitted with shaking fear and loathing to a teacher she described as "an immovable artifact..."

... teachers Very Often surprise resentment-fueled kids. Extremely often.  A hallmark of adolescence is, they don't read other people all that accurately.)

 

 

I agree with this as well.

But, the same is true with addressing ANY injustice in ANY context. We shouldn't have to, there is very often real cost to the effort, and...

... (witness both the content and the backlash herein, whichever "side" you're on...)

... Kids today, like kids in Sneezy's day before and mine before that and like every generation back to the beginning of time... had best learn to develop the backbone, and the skills, and the perseverance, and the resiliency to try. 

Better than simmering with resentment in a hideyhole.

I agree with all of this. But I still can't get over the acceptance of the suggestion that mothers go sit in on their kid's highschool classes.    I mean, do people actually think that is an acceptable solution?  How do these 2 things coincide with each other:  I'll go sit in on my kid's class AND I want my kid to stand up for what they believe in.   I feel like that's a Goldberg's episode.   

[Pam in CT]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Back in the day (over 30 years ago) I would write down what the teacher taught (proving that I knew the “material “) and then I would write my rebuttal. It was extra work but it was important to me to be true to what I believed. 
 

My teacher hated me but I got excellent grades. 

I wrote a LOT of these responses throughout high school.

I wasn't really brave enough to forge my own format until mid-college; and it wasn't until my second masters degree as a 40-something yo that I was truly able to stitch together the sort of creative adaptations that enabled ME really to learn and grow despite uninspired / dogmatic / narrowband prompts that one of my kids, and evidently Sneezy, arrived at as a 9th grader. 

*That* kind of backbone melded with capacity for synthesis melded with communication skill is quite unusual.

But the run-of-the-mill "here's what I think you're trying to hear; here's my response to it" is a format that most competent thinkers/writers can and should ba able to get to by 10th or 11th grade.

[Sneezyone]

25 minutes ago, Frances said:

Have you seen anything in the national news about the controversy in a conservative community here? One school board banned teachers from displaying anything they deemed political, such as BLM or LGBTQ related posters. They also recently fired the superintendent in a surprise last minute move at a board meeting.

https://www.opb.org/article/2021/11/04/newberg-teachers-sue-district-school-board-members-over-political-image-ban-in-schools/

I have but only in ed pubs. I'm more familiar with communities like this because I've spent most of my life in the south, more conservative places.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

His writing assignment isn’t about speaking up in class. The only one reading/grading is the teacher, ostensibly using a grading rubric that the students receive in advance. It still sounds like piss poor LIFE advice to me. By not sharing the fact that he has a contrary view, neither the students nor the teacher has a chance to guide the conversation in a way that makes space for that expression.

When my son was in ninth grade, we enrolled him in an online AP US Government class because it was an election year and he was very interested in politics, current events, etc. Going in, we knew the teacher and vast majority of students were very conservative Christians and that he would be in a distinct minority as an atheist Democrat. I was quite surprised, however, that every single one of our friends (but none of the teachers) at our very left leaning homeschool center thought we were making a serious mistake and said they would never enroll their own child in such a class.
 

In the end, the teacher turned out to be far more extreme that I anticipated. Similar to what sometimes happens here, for the first time I learned about certain far right publications. But she was a fair grader and seemed to welcome different viewpoints, although never, ever hiding her own. 
 

While the class was quite eye opening for both of us and resulted in many, many discussions outside of class, I overall thought it was a good experience for my son and would make the same decision again. With one exception, the other students in the minority dropped out in the first week and tried to convince my son and the other to do the same. But ultimately he really connected with some of the other students through online class discussions, despite their very different world views. He thoroughly enjoyed debating with  intellectual equals who shared his passion for politics and thought it really forced him to examine his beliefs and views and strengthen his abilities to articulate and defend them.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Frances said:

When my son was in ninth grade, we enrolled him in an online AP US Government class because it was an election year and he was very interested in politics, current events, etc. Going in, we knew the teacher and vast majority of students were very conservative Christians and that he would be in a distinct minority as an atheist Democrat. I was quite surprised, however, that every single one of our friends (but none of the teachers) at our very left leaning homeschool center thought we were making a serious mistake and said they would never enroll their own child in such a class.
 

In the end, the teacher turned out to be far more extreme that I anticipated. Similar to what sometimes happens here, for the first time I learned about certain far right publications. But she was a fair grader and seemed to welcome different viewpoints, although never, ever hiding her own. 
 

While the class was quite eye opening for both of us and resulted in many, many discussions outside of class, I overall thought it was a good experience for my son and would make the same decision again. With one exception, the other students in the minority dropped out in the first week and tried to convince my son and the other to do the same. But ultimately he really connected with some of the other students through online class discussions, despite their very different world views. He thoroughly enjoyed debating with  intellectual equals who shared his passion for politics and thought it really forced him to examine his beliefs and views and strengthen his abilities to articulate and defend them.

This was ultimately the experience I had at my high school. The teachers hated me, no lie there, but I got on well with the other students. Some have even looked me up in the years since which is weird b/c I never thought we were especially close. Whatever it was I said back then stuck with some of them.

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, goldberry said:

I'm going to relate a personal anecdote.  I was a teacher's dream in elementary school.  Straight a's, perfect behavior etc.  I was also raised not saluting the flag in Texas schools.  One year I had a teacher who really didn't like that.  All year long I received off grades that even in elementary school I was able to understand I didn't deserve. She even made me stand in the corner one day for something totally bogus.  This was an aberration that lasted an entire year.  I talked to my mom about it, and she agreed there was nothing wrong with the work I turned in or in my behavior.  She offered to go talk to the teacher, but acknowledged that likely that wouldn't change much.   This lasted a whole year, but there were further incidents throughout.  In high school I was downgraded several times for having what teachers considered to be not-sufficiently-patriotic views.  

The reality is that teachers are humans who sometimes engage in seriously biased behavior.  In addition and far more commonly, they sometimes are less-skilled in implementing directives.  Those that oppose "social justice" being pushed by education departments don't seem to have a problem with "patriotism" and "American exceptionalism" being pushed as priorities.  Do you really think that won't filter down as well?  That less-skilled teachers won't be downgrading, pressuring and demeaning students based on their views?  

Actually I do. For the same reasons. When my kids went to K and they had to say the pledge, I couldn’t believe it. I was floored. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Roadrunner

[KSera]

3 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

 She's in a mandatory Honors class this semester that has focused on race.  At first I thought this would be a mind-opening class.  I'll just say that it's not having the internal response that the teacher/university was hoping for.  Quite the opposite.   DD considers the class white shaming and racist.  I worry very much that classes like this are breeding more racism than they are erasing.

I keep hearing this lately, and find it distressing that people are becoming increasingly racist as a response to discussing racism. I think that illustrates why this is an issue needing to be addressed head on. The fact that some people are just getting even more racist as a response doesn’t seem to me should be answered by just not talking about it anymore. It’s really depressing honestly. 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I would argue that what Ed departments are producing is what is anti intellectual. I have linked somewhere a good talk about it, but I am sure you don’t care to listen. So 🤷‍♀️. 

I'm in graduate education school. It's very Butler/Friere. I'm 100% politically comfy there and wouldn't describe any of it - even Butler - as anti-intellectual. 

The mistake that's being made, imo, is that graduates are taking theory that is meant to inform their own teaching reflections and instead, doing the theory TO the kids.

Add that to bandwagon jumping admin and you get unskilful instruction at best. 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, KSera said:

I keep hearing this lately, and find it distressing that people are becoming increasingly racist as a response to discussing racism. I think that illustrates why this is an issue needing to be addressed head on. The fact that some people are just getting even more racist as a response doesn’t seem to me should be answered by just not talking about it anymore. It’s really depressing honestly. 

This has always been my worry and it's always been pooh-poohed. Inculcating racial essentialism has such a potential to misfire badly. I really struggle to understand why we are doing it. 

 

 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

This has always been my worry and it's always been pooh-poohed. Inculcating racial essentialism has such a potential to misfire badly. I really struggle to understand why we are doing it. 

 

 

I don’t advocate racial essentialism at all. But in the US, people are fighting back against discussing racism at all. Books on slavery and Ruby Bridges are being banned from schools. I think only racist people are going to be made “more racist” by the kinds of discussions that people want banned. Which is a bad outcome, but honestly, what is the solution to racist people? Accommodating them so they don’t become more racist? Surely there’s something better than that. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

I agree with all of this. But I still can't get over the acceptance of the suggestion that mothers go sit in on their kid's highschool classes.    I mean, do people actually think that is an acceptable solution?  How do these 2 things coincide with each other:  I'll go sit in on my kid's class AND I want my kid to stand up for what they believe in.   I feel like that's a Goldberg's episode.   

Kids shouldn't have to be 'standing up' in their essays.

This is bizarre to me. Writing essays in highschool and undergrad are exercises in learning technical skills + demonstrating understanding of taught concepts, not a chance to be your 'true self' and 'stand up for your beliefs'. About what? Lear?! 

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I don’t advocate racial essentialism at all. But in the US, people are fighting back against discussing racism at all. Books on slavery and Ruby Bridges are being banned from schools. I think only racist people are going to be made “more racist” by the kinds of discussions that people want banned. Which is a bad outcome, but honestly, what is the solution to racist people? Accommodating them so they don’t become more racist? Surely there’s something better than that. 

Of course there is.

Look, I've been left with nowhere to go poltically on the left except to the bloody Communist Party, because they're the only party that don't freak out that women exist in material form. 

I'm going to be biased towards approaches that emphasise policy designed to address material conditions Sanders style.

I'm not super interested in the plight of the upper middle classes, of whatever race. Class based policy brings along poorer whites, regardless of their racism, but improves the material conditions of all poor people, including those who are over-represented in that demographic by virtue of systemic racism. 

This Mackintosh language of privilege comes out of a cohort of wealthy, guilty whites.

It nicely helps them redirect attention away from their socio-economic privilege, by folding in all whites with them. 

I'm sure there are other approaches. In fact, I know there are pre-packaged humanistic DEI orgs out there with resources from a humanistic perspective. 

One thing I notice about US discourse is how religious in nature it is, even when it's secular. The idea that there is one righteous way to justice is a religious idea. As is the idea of blasphemers and heretics. 

There are many approaches to improving the conditions of people's lives, and most of them have everything to do with pragmatic bargaining re policies and nothing to do with these grand narratives of sin and redemption, of which modern language of privilege and oppression as used in the popular culture and often in the academy are just the latest manifestation. 

I've often compared the 'Whites are intrinsically racist among all the races' as church without the redemption. "You're a sinner and you can't be anything but a sinner, so acknowledge your sin because that's the only path to redemption."

Anyway. Just my 2c. 

Ironically, I think greater intersectionality is one possible answer. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[madteaparty]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:38 PM, SanDiegoMom said:

Wow.  That's pretty rude.  And pretty much spot on for why some Democrats are starting to feel like the party has moved on to a weird place and are feeling it is less and less representative to those who might have contrasting opinions about certain issues.

Isn't the whole problem with the two party system as it is is that it polarizes us into two opposite parties when most of us have views that shift or are somewhat in the middle? 

I am a 45 year old lifelong Democrat, non religious, never voted Republican in my life. And I believe the most frustrating "woke" issues are definitely magnified in the media -- how else are they going to sell papers  I guess.  But insulting people for their beliefs isn't really helpful and that is honestly what a lot of liberal news is filled with.

 

Exactly. I’m as far left as you can get, but the current American version of wokeness  has me unable to speak to my fellow “progressive” community members as I’m pretty sure I will be called names. The self censorship that goes on reminds me of communist era “self criticism” and correct dogma.

and then everyone is shocked we end up with the elected officials we end up with. 

[Melissa Louise]

8 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

Exactly. I’m as far left as you can get, but the current American version of wokeness  has me unable to speak to my fellow “progressive” community members as I’m pretty sure I will be called names. The self censorship that goes on reminds me of communist era “self criticism” and correct dogma.

and then everyone is shocked we end up with the elected officials we end up with. 

Yep.

 

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-educational-divide-that-threatens-to-split-the-left-20211118-p59a8k.html

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

I've often compared the 'Whites are intrinsically racist among all the races' as church without the redemption. "You're a sinner and you can't be anything but a sinner, so acknowledge your sin because that's the only path to redemption."

It’s an interesting analogy, except people ARE trying to discuss “redemption”. Some people don’t want to be in that discussion though.

(I am speaking of independent adult people, not minors in educational institutions at the mercy of their random teachers.)

[SanDiegoMom]

5 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

I've never heard anyone in IRL calling anyone else names for "woke" transgressions. OTOH I frequently hear people saying sexist, homophobic, and transphobic things. 

But the US is a pretty big country with all sorts of different communities... so this is a pretty individual experience. 

The idea that progressive communities are full of people afraid to speak their mind is a big myth. It reminds me of the "I'm not politically correct!" brags which basically means that person thinks they're free to be a jerk. 

Remember the Yale Halloween controversy? Evergreen State? There is a growing trend of groupthink in the younger, progressive left.  My daughter, who is center-left, felt it in her poli sci classes at UCLA, though not to an extreme extent.  But there was a greater fear of saying the wrong thing for sure. 

Look it's okay to admit that you're not progressive. The whole "I'm a liberal but..." thing is pretty tired. And it's always "I'm a liberal but [something wanted by a disadvantaged group is going too far] and I'm show you by voting for Republicans!" 

The beauty of democracy is being able to vote your conscience.  When did it become so evil to find fault with one's own political party? 

 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, madteaparty said:

Exactly. I’m as far left as you can get, but the current American version of wokeness  has me unable to speak to my fellow “progressive” community members as I’m pretty sure I will be called names. The self censorship that goes on reminds me of communist era “self criticism” and correct dogma.

and then everyone is shocked we end up with the elected officials we end up with. 

I hope you will eventually feel able to speak to your fellow progressive community members, at least one on one. I’m likely more moderate than you, but I certainly have been open with some of my younger, very liberal coworkers who I feel get carried away to extremes at times. I’ve gently tried to call them in and attempted to get them to see another view.

At the same time, when discussing politics with my son who is to the right of me, I’m always reminding him of the difference between fear of things that might happen or that are happening in a very limited manner, generally unrelated to any government body or elected officials, and things that should deeply concern all of us who care about our country, regardless of political affiliation. So for example, it’s fine to be upset about a private college cancelling a speaker due to student disagreement (and I actually agree with him), but I certainly hope he would be more upset about politicians who actively work for voter disenfranchisement or undermine the legitimacy of free and fair elections by spreading lies and misinformation because it benefits them politically. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Frances

[Melissa Louise]

7 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

It’s an interesting analogy, except people ARE trying to discuss “redemption”. Some people don’t want to be in that discussion though.

(I am speaking of independent adult people, not minors in educational institutions at the mercy of their random teachers.)

Well, personally I'm not religious, so I reject redemption framing altogether.

If I wanted that in my life, I'd go back to church and save myself with works and faith the old fashioned way, where a few Hail Mary's and a night at the homeless kitchen gets me to heaven.

I don't believe in collective guilt. Collective action? Sure. That's the basis of labour organisation. 

To me, humanistic approaches  can promote collective action on issues of injustice without the religious framing. 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

OS you are very rude. 

Some of us have been part of left wing parties for decades, and putting our time in on issues ranging from poverty to racism to environment/climate to disability to health to housing to gay rights to women's rights. 

Who the hell do you think you are to be teaching your (metaphorical) grandmother's to suck eggs?

If we want to say what we see, which is that our parties are losing the opportunity to enact our policies in government because of academy-driven ideologies, we've well and truly earned that right. 

I don't know why you are so arrogant about dismissing people who've been on the left for many decades. 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Melissa Louise

[Melissa Louise]

And seriously, this never happens? Complete wilful blindness. 

 

[madteaparty]

57 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm not afraid to speak to anyone in my community. I recently used the wrong pronoun for someone and it was NBD because I apologized. 

I've never heard anyone in IRL calling anyone else names for "woke" transgressions. OTOH I frequently hear people saying sexist, homophobic, and transphobic things. 

I don't self-censor either. 

But then I'm actually progressive and not someone who concern trolls about liberals. 

The idea that progressive communities are full of people afraid to speak their mind is a big myth. It reminds me of the "I'm not politically correct!" brags which basically means that person thinks they're free to be a jerk. 

Look it's okay to admit that you're not progressive. The whole "I'm a liberal but..." thing is pretty tired. And it's always "I'm a liberal but [something wanted by a disadvantaged group is going too far] and I'm show you by voting for Republicans!" 

BTW, I wasn't shocked when Trump was elected in 2016. Progressives weren't shocked by his election or Rittenhouse's acquittal. 

I don’t think you realize which points, and by quite how much, you’re proving by this post. 

[Melissa Louise]

I just remembered how I literally got kicked out of my local XR for suggesting we stop workshopping the drama about a photo being used on FB  of a white hippy girl with dreads, and resumed workshopping the upcoming action, lol.

 

[SanDiegoMom]

I remember Julie Bogart of Bravewriter speaking on the dangers of ideology, and how it crept into homeschooling circles (you must homeschool a certain way or else you are failing!).  Those are the vibes I am getting from the tone of your posts, @Ordinary Shoes.  I left the church at age 16 because of ideology, I have seen the ideology in the right in the past, and it has been within the last 6-8 years I have seen a strong ideology creep into the left.  That doesn't mean I plan to dump the party.  But if a center-left, secular family like mine is seeing warning signs flashing, that means the party probably needs to recalibrate because they are most likely losing a lot more than us. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I remember Julie Bogart of Bravewriter speaking on the dangers of ideology, and how it crept into homeschooling circles (you must homeschool a certain way or else you are failing!).  Those are the vibes I am getting from the tone of your posts, @Ordinary Shoes.  I left the church at age 16 because of ideology, I have seen the ideology in the right in the past, and it has been within the last 6-8 years I have seen a strong ideology creep into the left.  That doesn't mean I plan to dump the party.  But if a center-left, secular family like mine is seeing warning signs flashing, that means the party probably needs to recalibrate because they are most likely losing a lot more than us. 

 

I think what's being misunderstood, deliberately or not, is that people like you and I are not stepping away because we think our parties are too progressive. 

It's because ( on race and gender particularly, but not only) we think our parties are endorsing a REGRESSIVE pov.

 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Well, personally I'm not religious, so I reject redemption framing altogether.

If I wanted that in my life, I'd go back to church and save myself with works and faith the old fashioned way, where a few Hail Mary's and a night at the homeless kitchen gets me to heaven.

I don't believe in collective guilt. Collective action? Sure. That's the basis of labour organisation. 

To me, humanistic approaches  can promote collective action on issues of injustice without the religious framing. 

 

Personally, neither am I. It was your reference.

 I haven’t ever had anyone tell me or imply that I am “guilty”.  I’ve had conversations about implicit bias, and I will forever be a work in progress, but I’m not plagued with guilt.

The only people I’m personally familiar with who get defensive using the word guilt are people who refuse to discuss the realities of implicit bias. 

[SanDiegoMom]

7 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

It's because ( on race and gender particularly, but not only) we think our parties are endorsing a REGRESSIVE pov.

 

Yes! Thank you for articulating this better than I have. 

[Fritz]

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/my-university-sacrificed-ideas-for

Not written by Bari Weiss but rather Peter Boghossian

Peter Boghossian has taught philosophy at Portland State University for the past decade. In the letter below, sent this morning to the university’s provost, he explains why he is resigning.

Dear Provost Susan Jeffords,

I’m writing to you today to resign as assistant professor of philosophy at Portland State University.

Over the last decade, it has been my privilege to teach at the university. My specialties are critical thinking, ethics and the Socratic method, and I teach classes like Science and Pseudoscience and The Philosophy of Education. But in addition to exploring classic philosophers and traditional texts, I’ve invited a wide range of guest lecturers to address my classes, from Flat-Earthers to Christian apologists to global climate skeptics to Occupy Wall Street advocates. I’m proud of my work.

I invited those speakers not because I agreed with their worldviews, but primarily because I didn’t. From those messy and difficult conversations, I’ve seen the best of what our students can achieve: questioning beliefs while respecting believers; staying even-tempered in challenging circumstances; and even changing their minds. 

I never once believed —  nor do I now —  that the purpose of instruction was to lead my students to a particular conclusion. Rather, I sought to create the conditions for rigorous thought; to help them gain the tools to hunt and furrow for their own conclusions. This is why I became a teacher and why I love teaching.

But brick by brick, the university has made this kind of intellectual exploration impossible. It has transformed a bastion of free inquiry into a Social Justice factory whose only inputs were race, gender, and victimhood and whose only outputs were grievance and division.

Students at Portland State are not being taught to think. Rather, they are being trained to mimic the moral certainty of ideologues. Faculty and administrators have abdicated the university’s truth-seeking mission and instead drive intolerance of divergent beliefs and opinions. This has created a culture of offense where students are now afraid to speak openly and honestly. 

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/we-cant-wait-for-universities-to

Also not written by Bari Weiss but rather Pano Kanelos

So much is broken in America. But higher education might be the most fractured institution of all.

There is a gaping chasm between the promise and the reality of higher education. Yale’s motto is Lux et Veritas, light and truth. Harvard proclaims: Veritas. Young men and women of Stanford are told Die Luft der Freiheit weht: The wind of freedom blows.

These are soaring words. But in these top schools, and in so many others, can we actually claim that the pursuit of truth—once the central purpose of a university—remains the highest virtue? Do we honestly believe that the crucial means to that end—freedom of inquiry and civil discourse—prevail when illiberalism has become a pervasive feature of campus life?

The numbers tell the story as well as any anecdote you’ve read in the headlines or heard within your own circles. Nearly a quarter of American academics in the social sciences or humanities endorse ousting a colleague for having a wrong opinion about hot-button issues such as immigration or gender differences. Over a third of conservative academics and PhD students say they had been threatened with disciplinary action for their views. Four out of five American PhD students are willing to discriminate against right-leaning scholars, according to a report by the Center for the Study of Partisanship and Ideology.

The picture among undergraduates is even bleaker. In Heterodox Academy’s 2020 Campus Expression Survey, 62% of sampled college students agreed that the climate on their campus prevented students from saying things they believe. Nearly 70% of students favor reporting professors if the professor says something students find offensive, according to a Challey Institute for Global Innovation survey. The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education reports at least 491 disinvitation campaigns since 2000. Roughly half were successful. 

[Roadrunner]

Oh, and what happened at Yale is very important, because this sort  of nonsense is happening all over. 
Have you seen what happened at Smith? 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.amp.html

Many are terrified to speak. 
 

and no, progressives/woke/extreme left, doesn’t get to define the word liberal. So Bill Maher is not a liberal? What about John McWhorter? Carville? All irrelevant because they don’t align with your ideology? 

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Personally, neither am I. It was your reference.

 I haven’t ever had anyone tell me or imply that I am “guilty”.  I’ve had conversations about implicit bias, and I will forever be a work in progress, but I’m not plagued with guilt.

The only people I’m personally familiar with who get defensive using the word guilt are people who refuse to discuss the realities of implicit bias. 

Implicit bias is....well, it's neither here nor there. All humans have it. It can't be reliably measured ( the IAT is bunk) and it doesn't correlate to behaviour, let alone demonstrate causative value.  I'm not defensive about it - I have slight preferences for women, Black people, gay people and the young. It's just junk science. It doesn't mean a thing. 

This is what I mean about religious impulses.  Implicit bias is just the new soul. Look within for your 'sin'. 

Whereas humanism is about looking out. The state of your soul or your human biases are irrelevant. "What's not working in the world," is the only relevant question, followed by, "what can I do to help solve it?"

This excessive focus on the state of one's biases seems almost degenerate to me. 

 

 

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

These people who are terrified to speak must be oh so very brave because they certainly seem to speak frequently. 

Is there a shortage of racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia? 

"Terrified" seriously? Seriously? Why are we treating this kind of hyperbole seriously? "Terrified?" 

I'm familiar with what happened at Smith and it's not what you think. 

Bill Maher is an anti-Muslim bigot. 

McWhorter - again he sure seems to get a lot of attention for voicing ideas that are supposed to lead to cancelling? 

Carville? We already discussed how irrelevant he is. 

 

And you just proved my point. Everybody is no good unless they line up with your ideology. 
 

[Frances]

5 minutes ago, Fritz said:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/my-university-sacrificed-ideas-for

Not written by Bari Weiss but rather Peter Boghossian

Peter Boghossian has taught philosophy at Portland State University for the past decade. In the letter below, sent this morning to the university’s provost, he explains why he is resigning.

Dear Provost Susan Jeffords,

I’m writing to you today to resign as assistant professor of philosophy at Portland State University.

Over the last decade, it has been my privilege to teach at the university. My specialties are critical thinking, ethics and the Socratic method, and I teach classes like Science and Pseudoscience and The Philosophy of Education. But in addition to exploring classic philosophers and traditional texts, I’ve invited a wide range of guest lecturers to address my classes, from Flat-Earthers to Christian apologists to global climate skeptics to Occupy Wall Street advocates. I’m proud of my work.

I invited those speakers not because I agreed with their worldviews, but primarily because I didn’t. From those messy and difficult conversations, I’ve seen the best of what our students can achieve: questioning beliefs while respecting believers; staying even-tempered in challenging circumstances; and even changing their minds. 

I never once believed —  nor do I now —  that the purpose of instruction was to lead my students to a particular conclusion. Rather, I sought to create the conditions for rigorous thought; to help them gain the tools to hunt and furrow for their own conclusions. This is why I became a teacher and why I love teaching.

But brick by brick, the university has made this kind of intellectual exploration impossible. It has transformed a bastion of free inquiry into a Social Justice factory whose only inputs were race, gender, and victimhood and whose only outputs were grievance and division.

Students at Portland State are not being taught to think. Rather, they are being trained to mimic the moral certainty of ideologues. Faculty and administrators have abdicated the university’s truth-seeking mission and instead drive intolerance of divergent beliefs and opinions. This has created a culture of offense where students are now afraid to speak openly and honestly. 

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/we-cant-wait-for-universities-to

Also not written by Bari Weiss but rather Pano Kanelos

So much is broken in America. But higher education might be the most fractured institution of all.

There is a gaping chasm between the promise and the reality of higher education. Yale’s motto is Lux et Veritas, light and truth. Harvard proclaims: Veritas. Young men and women of Stanford are told Die Luft der Freiheit weht: The wind of freedom blows.

These are soaring words. But in these top schools, and in so many others, can we actually claim that the pursuit of truth—once the central purpose of a university—remains the highest virtue? Do we honestly believe that the crucial means to that end—freedom of inquiry and civil discourse—prevail when illiberalism has become a pervasive feature of campus life?

The numbers tell the story as well as any anecdote you’ve read in the headlines or heard within your own circles. Nearly a quarter of American academics in the social sciences or humanities endorse ousting a colleague for having a wrong opinion about hot-button issues such as immigration or gender differences. Over a third of conservative academics and PhD students say they had been threatened with disciplinary action for their views. Four out of five American PhD students are willing to discriminate against right-leaning scholars, according to a report by the Center for the Study of Partisanship and Ideology.

The picture among undergraduates is even bleaker. In Heterodox Academy’s 2020 Campus Expression Survey, 62% of sampled college students agreed that the climate on their campus prevented students from saying things they believe. Nearly 70% of students favor reporting professors if the professor says something students find offensive, according to a Challey Institute for Global Innovation survey. The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education reports at least 491 disinvitation campaigns since 2000. Roughly half were successful. 

As someone who lives in Oregon, I do think exposing students to speakers with unpopular viewpoints is generally a good thing. Although I admit haven’t followed the Portland State University issue closely enough to have an informed opinion about the whole situation. But I do know many students who have attended the two major state universities here (OSU and UofO) who experienced exactly the opposite of what the professor describes.

However, even if I take Professor’s Boghoosian’s statements as absolute fact and am then bothered by the situation, it still very much pales in comparison to what I see from the other side, especially among mainstream people and politicians. Widespread support for the lies about a stolen election and subsequent attempts at even greater voter disenfranchisement. Blackface incidents by teachers and school board members in my area. Major bullying issues in schools related to race and sexual orientation. Banning children’s books about Ruby Bridges. Constant calls for violence as a solution to problems. 

I’m curious, Fritz. Do you have any concerns about how issues around race, diversity, etc are handled by people and politicians on the right? 
 

[madteaparty]

14 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I remember your posts on this forum griping about COVID precautions. I remember you mentioning how the French people were opposed opposed their vaccine mandates. 

"I'm a liberal but..." 

 

Are you going to hunt me down and call me a horse paste eating antivaxer? 🤣

And you keep going. Lol. There’s no left-wing people, anywhere in the world, that would not fall in line with often-scientifically-wrong government action such as shutting down schools, etc?  not a one? Everyone falls exactly in your camp? 

 

[Roadrunner]

16 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

No, we just need to call a spade a spade. 

Some people have created a brand of "I'm a liberal but" These people are not liberals. It's nothing but concern trolling. 

Roadroader wasn't a liberal anyway. She was already right of center about race so why are we pretending that she wasn't and that THIS was the final thing to push her over the edge? 

Madteaparty also isn't the progressive she claims to be. I remember her COVID posts. 

Politics is ideology. 

This "woke" hysteria is nothing but BS. Some people are falling for it because they like the persecution complex. Some people are susceptible to it for other reasons. 

I have never voted Republican in my life. And I am not a liberal? I am not center to the right on race. I am with Martin Luther King Jr. on race, not the new woke. 
 

And no, woke isn’t BS. It is an ideology, a sort of an extreme wing of the left. Most of democrats (and I can count my Republican friends on one hand. Pretty much all are Democrats) are aligned with me and think the current extremes will self correct to the middle.  

[SanDiegoMom]

17 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

No, we just need to call a spade a spade. 

Some people have created a brand of "I'm a liberal but" These people are not liberals. It's nothing but concern trolling. 

Roadroader wasn't a liberal anyway. She was already right of center about race so why are we pretending that she wasn't and that THIS was the final thing to push her over the edge? 

Madteaparty also isn't the progressive she claims to be. I remember her COVID posts. 

Politics is ideology. 

This "woke" hysteria is nothing but BS. Some people are falling for it because they like the persecution complex. Some people are susceptible to it for other reasons. 

Uh, political parties have changed over time, and the issues that they embrace are never going to satisfy all.  But in your mind there's one way to be and if you disagree with any of it at all then you aren't a liberal. You will not have a party left at that rate.  No one is pure enough for you.

I listen to a lot of podcasts that do attempt to carve a niche for themselves in the middle.  The opportunity is there because the left has pulled so far left that there are a lot of people looking for something not so extreme.  I listen to Meghan Daum on the Unspeakable Podcast, Jesse Singal and Katie Herzog of Blocked and Reported, for example. The New York Times is subscription based.   They are writing for their audience. How is that any different?