CDC mask announcement (a new thread)

[Bootsie]

7 minutes ago, *Jessica* said:

Since Pen first mentioned leaky vaccines I’ve read a bit about them and I don’t see how this is any cause for concern with the coronavirus vaccines available.  
 

“Leaky vaccines work by enhancing host immunity to a particular pathogen, without necessarily blocking or slowing viral replication. The result is that infected but vaccinated individuals have extended survival, allowing highly virulent pathogen that would normally reach an evolutionary dead-end in a dead host, can transmit. The evolutionary consequences of high virulence are thus reduced and these pathogens can be selectively favored as a result of leaky vaccination.” Source

 

“Data from multiple studies in different countries suggest that people vaccinated with Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine who develop COVID-19 have a lower viral load than unvaccinated people.(50-54) This observation may indicate reduced transmissibility, as viral load has been identified as a key driver of transmission(55).” Source

Current vaccines (particularly the mRNA vaccines that Pen seems to think are potentially problematic) are limiting transmissibility.  People who are vaccinated but get infected are less likely to pass the virus on.  Unvaccinated people are much more likely to become infected and much more likely to infect someone else, keeping the chain going with many more opportunities for mutations that are more dangerous.  Leaky vaccine worries really don’t make sense here.   The masses of unvaccinated are putting us at risk of potential mutations, not the very tiny few who are vaccinated and still able to infect others.  
 

And if somehow, hypothetically, all of the scientific community manages to be wrong about this and Pen is right, permanent mask requirements would likely be far less of a big deal to those of us willing to protect our communities by vaccinating than it would to those who keep screaming about their rights and refusing to vaccinate or mask.  Stop trying to make the vaccinated look like the selfish fools here; it’s quite clear to the vast majority of the world who are the selfish ones.  (Not speaking of those who cannot be vaccinated, of course.) 

I did not see Pen (or anyone else) tying to make the vaccinated look like selfish fools.  As someone who IS vaccinated, I would not refer to those who are choosing not to vaccinate at this point as selfish.  Some of the most thoughtful, well-informed people I know are choosing not to vaccinate at this point; I respect the time, thought, and research they have put into making what for many is a tough decision.  I do not necessarily draw the same conclusions or weight the issues the same way they do; but I learn a lot more by entering into a conversation with them than I do by simply talking to people who think vaccinating at this point is a simple question with only one potential answer and that anyone who doesn't agree with that answer is selfish.  I have also found that few people who are not vaccinated find being called selfish a motivating factor for getting vaccinated; instead I find that they are eager for an intellectual discussion as the gather newly available information and as the wrestle with the decision are more likely to respond to having their concerns responded to with respect. 

[KSera]

13 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I have also found that few people who are not vaccinated find being called selfish a motivating factor for getting vaccinated; instead I find that they are eager for an intellectual discussion as the gather newly available information and as the wrestle with the decision are more likely to respond to having their concerns responded to with respect. 

I agree that's not a productive tactic, and that there are many people who are uncertain and looking for info and who are able to have reasonable discussions about it. I know plenty of unvaccinated people in that category. I do find that different from people who repeatedly try to advance false and/or disproven theories to discourage vaccination. That's a different category. And even moreso when they are part of  putting forth anti-semitic tropes along with their anti-vax sentiment. I was frankly pretty surprised how lightly that has been taken here on the board. I found that extremely abhorrent, and a that point, reasonable discussion seemed to have long left the building.

If anyone has been fortunate enough to have not seen all the Covid-related anti-semitism, here's a recent Op-Ed from Medpage Today: COVID-19 Has Unleashed Vile Antisemitism Some of this was seen on this board in the vaccine thread.

Edited June 3, 2021 by KSera

[Jean in Newcastle]

33 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

So, what is the point of this information?  

From a public health standpoint, if 1% of the entire population has a virus, there is a 1 in 100 chance that someone I meet on the street has the virus.  If half of the population is vaccinated, and 1% of the remaining portion of the population has the virus, then there is a 1 in 200 chance that someone I randomly meet on the street has the virus.  If the nature of the disease is that 20% of those who get the disease are hospitalized, then the adjusted rate of hospitalization would remain the same. 

The point as I understand it, is that if you isolate out the unvaccinated population, the rates of infection are just as high as it was in the winter.  I am glad to be part of the vaccinated population for this very reason.  But many unvaccinated people see the lower numbers which include the vaccinated population and think that they are safe when they really aren't.  (This is, as always  when discussing a contagious virus, is dependent on location.) 

[Dmmetler]

34 minutes ago, KSera said:

Well of course, but I meant the thyroid pill my daughter takes each morning. It makes sense that you could absorb transdermal medication through your skin; that's how it works. Same with the radioactive iodine therapy and live vaccines. All of those have a very clear mechanism. We're not talking about any of that, though. This is a vaccine with no virus in it at all that is injected. A better analogy might have been for me to say it doesn't make sense to worry that you are going to get too much insulin by standing close to someone who takes insulin injections each day.

I worry that countering with examples that aren't at all equivalent will further bolster people putting forth dangerous conspiracy theories. It seems they ignore all evidence to the contrary of their conspiracy theories, but take and run with anything that remotely seems to support it (even when it doesn't). I expect to see that now in 3...2...1....

The thing is, there are mechanisms by which medications can affect others nearby. Including some vaccines. This is not the case with the COVID vaccine, which is neither radioactive nor live, but dismissing it off hand with "vaccines don't work that way" isn't fair. Some can. Just not the mRNA ones or attenuated virus ones, which are the only currently approved in the US. 

[Bootsie]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

The point as I understand it, is that if you isolate out the unvaccinated population, the rates of infection are just as high as it was in the winter.  I am glad to be part of the vaccinated population for this very reason.  But many unvaccinated people see the lower numbers which include the vaccinated population and think that they are safe when they really aren't.  (This is, as always  when discussing a contagious virus, is dependent on location.) 

I don't know that this can be concluded. It is difficult to read the exact numbers from the Washington Post, but it looks as if the adjusted rate in the US is about 15 per 100,000 (or .015%)--It was closer to 80 per 100,000 at the peak of the pandemic--so the risk was about 5 times higher earlier this year than before. 

Someone may be willing to accept a 0.015% risk--not that they are somehow being fooled into thinking it is safe.  Safe is a relative term.  The rate at which one person feels safe is not the rate at which another person feels safe.  

The hospitalization rate is even more difficult to draw conclusions from.  From what I can gather, these numbers are based on the number hospitalized, not the rate of new hospitalization.  So someone who contracted COVID in February (before vaccine was widely available) was hospitalized in March, and is unfortunately still hospitalized would be in those statistics.  There is a time delay between when vaccination rates will fully show up in hospitalization rate statistics, especially when it is the number hospitalized that is being used and not the number of new hospitalization rates.  

A state such as Washington can be cherry-picked to show that the rate of COVID among the unvaccinated today appears to be about the same as it was among the total population in Washington at the end of January--but that was because the rate in Washington in January was only about 1/4 of the rate at the national level.  Washington did not have a large wave then; in an area in which the risk was relatively low in January it is going to be statistically difficult for the rate among unvaccinated to become much lower than that.   In fact, the hospitalization rate in Washington for the entire population (not just unvaccinated adjusted numbers) is the same as it was in January--I don't think we would want to conclude that means that the vaccination is not helping.  So, these numbers must be put into context.  We can't think of the peak in January in the US and then talk about Washington numbers now compared to a strong January peak. 

[Dmmetler]

56 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right, but in those, we have some mechanism by which exposure could do something. You may as well say that you can catch my cold sores by standing next time when I don't have a cold sore -- the virus is somewhere inside my body, right? 

Again, though, I think it's important to acknowledge that the idea that someone can be affected by someone else's medical treatment is not far fetched, and address WHY the COVID vaccine cannot work that way. 

 

The fact is, the analogy used was thyroid meds. There are at least two forms of thyroid treatment that I know of that can affect others, and others that cannot. There are, similarly, some vaccines that can affect others. Just not the ones currently approved for COVID in the USA. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Again, though, I think it's important to acknowledge that the idea that someone can be affected by someone else's medical treatment is not far fetched, and address WHY the COVID vaccine cannot work that way. 

The fact is, the analogy used was thyroid meds. There are at least two forms of thyroid treatment that I know of that can affect others, and others that cannot. There are, similarly, some vaccines that can affect others. Just not the ones currently approved for COVID in the USA. 

That sounds like a fine approach if you assume people are arguing this rationally and in good faith. That's not my current take, though. 

[Catwoman]

25 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

The thing is, there are mechanisms by which medications can affect others nearby. Including some vaccines. This is not the case with the COVID vaccine, which is neither radioactive nor live, but dismissing it off hand with "vaccines don't work that way" isn't fair. Some can. Just not the mRNA ones or attenuated virus ones, which are the only currently approved in the US. 

I think people were saying “vaccines don’t work that way,” as a response to the types of ideas that suggest that if an unvaccinated person is merely in a room with vaccinated people — or even walks past them in a store or something — their fertility will be affected or they will suffer a miscarriage, or they will get some hideous new mystery disease that is not Covid, but is somehow much worse.

And vaccines truly don’t work that way. They just don’t.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Catwoman
Typos!

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

The thing is, there are mechanisms by which medications can affect others nearby. Including some vaccines. This is not the case with the COVID vaccine, which is neither radioactive nor live, but dismissing it off hand with "vaccines don't work that way" isn't fair. Some can. Just not the mRNA ones or attenuated virus ones, which are the only currently approved in the US. 

 

22 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

The fact is, the analogy used was thyroid meds. There are at least two forms of thyroid treatment that I know of that can affect others, and others that cannot. There are, similarly, some vaccines that can affect others. Just not the ones currently approved for COVID in the USA. 

Again, I apparently made a mistake in using the thyroid example, as I pulled it out of the air quickly, thinking of my kid who takes a pill. I will endeavor to more carefully choose my examples in the future, looking for any related caveats someone might think of. In the context of this discussion, I'm not sure how it's helpful to muddy things by coming up with things that are totally not like a Covid vaccine (transdermal medication, live vaccines, radioactive treatments) as examples of ways that someone could be affected by someone else's treatment. It seems to be making the opposite of the point that is true, which is that Covid vaccines aren't in that category and vaccinated people are not causing infertility unvaccinated people. Like not_a_number said, I think it wouldn't bother me at all in a good faith discussion, but since this part of the discussion has not been that, it's more concerning to me.

[SKL]

33 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Again, though, I think it's important to acknowledge that the idea that someone can be affected by someone else's medical treatment is not far fetched, and address WHY the COVID vaccine cannot work that way. 

 

The fact is, the analogy used was thyroid meds. There are at least two forms of thyroid treatment that I know of that can affect others, and others that cannot. There are, similarly, some vaccines that can affect others. Just not the ones currently approved for COVID in the USA. 

Thanks.  I was also thinking of hormones which can affect others in the vicinity.

I don't think that's the case with the Covid vaxes, but when people respond to questions/musings with arbitrary / simplistic answers, it leaves the real questions unanswered and the skeptics still skeptical.

[TCB]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

Again, though, I think it's important to acknowledge that the idea that someone can be affected by someone else's medical treatment is not far fetched, and address WHY the COVID vaccine cannot work that way. 

 

The fact is, the analogy used was thyroid meds. There are at least two forms of thyroid treatment that I know of that can affect others, and others that cannot. There are, similarly, some vaccines that can affect others. Just not the ones currently approved for COVID in the USA. 

I haven’t come across a thyroid medication, used by humans, that can affect other humans and would really like to know which these are.

[Dmmetler]

36 minutes ago, TCB said:

I haven’t come across a thyroid medication, used by humans, that can affect other humans and would really like to know which these are.

Radioactive iodine. As mentioned, the other was a transdermal compounding for veterinary use, but it's the same medication used for hyperthyroid in humans. 

 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

I agree that's not a productive tactic, and that there are many people who are uncertain and looking for info and who are able to have reasonable discussions about it. I know plenty of unvaccinated people in that category. I do find that different from people who repeatedly try to advance false and/or disproven theories to discourage vaccination. That's a different category.

Yes. Some questions were understandable, valid concerns months ago, but once we have info to show those concerns are unfounded, to continue to promote them as valid questions with no answer is not helpful. 

[*Jessica*]

4 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I did not see Pen (or anyone else) tying to make the vaccinated look like selfish fools.  

You’re right, and I apologize. She didn’t use that phrase.  

[TCB]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

Radioactive iodine. As mentioned, the other was a transdermal compounding for veterinary use, but it's the same medication used for hyperthyroid in humans. 

 

Ahh yes! And the mechanism for those to affect others  is very clear, as is the possibility of a live vaccine affecting those around. To me, the mRNA vaccine shedding theory, feels like grasping at straws to discredit the vaccine. Not sure why it’s necessary. I would say solid, fact based questioning is quite welcome, but seeming to set out to discredit or destroy something on very flimsy pretexts seems strange. 

[Corraleno]

7 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I’m wondering how the people who worry about that are thinking the vaccinated people are actually “putting out something potentially harmful.”

I have seen that theory posted here and there, but there never seems to be an explanation of how a person could get a vaccination and then — as an example — somehow be able to make other women infertile.

It makes no sense to me, and I can’t figure out how anyone could believe this, as this isn’t something that happens with vaccines. 

There are a couple of separate "theories" being pushed by anti-vaxxers as part of the claim that vaccinated people are causing much greater risks than the unvaccinated, neither of which have any scientific basis.

(1) The belief that vaccinated people can somehow "infect" others and cause infertility has two components. The first is the false claim that part of the spike protein in the vaccines is identical to a protein in the human placenta, and therefore the vaccines will cause miscarriages and infertility because the immune system will be trained to attack the placenta. This has been thoroughly debunked. 

The idea that vaccines can cause infertility was then expanded to include the claim that vaccinated people not only "shed" spike proteins, these protein fragments are just as infectious and dangerous as live virus — and I've even seen claims that protein fragments are even more dangerous than the actual virus (which has killed more than 3 million people), despite the fact that they have no way of replicating. According to this "theory," spike protein fragments that magically drift through the air and are inhaled or touched by innocent unvaccinated people will then infect them and cause infertility as well as a whole slew of other medical problems.

(2) The theory that dangerous variants are more likely to develop in vaccinated people than in unvaccinated people, was promoted by a Belgian veterinarian named Geert Vanden Bossche, who claims that the vaccines only prevent symptoms, while allowing the virus to replicate unchecked, while catching actual covid provides much better immunity (unless of course you end up dead instead of immune).

*Coincidentally* Vanden Bossche also claims to be working on a brand new type of vaccine that will solve this problem and he wants the world to stop using vaccines like Pfizer & Moderna, which he claims will cause a massive global catastrophe down the road, and wait for his amazing new vaccine (which he is apparently developing in his garage, since he does not seem to be currently employed). His claims have been thoroughly refuted by many reputable scientists.

Here is a through refutation of Vanden Bossche's bogus theories from McGill University:
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-pseudoscience/doomsday-prophecy-dr-geert-vanden-bossche

 

[TravelingChris]

20 hours ago, Pen said:

@ktgrok you probably don’t want to consider this, but let’s say, hypothetically, in the event it does turn out that people who chose to get the jabs are actually putting out something potentially  harmful to others (I realize you don’t believe it could be so, but just as a hypothetical) , how do you want the people who chose to get the jabs to be treated?  Locked down?  Locked out of businesses, colleges, schools, jobs, air flights? etc? Permanent mask requirement?  

I am someone who does have to stay away from vaccinated people-MMR vaccinated people because that is a live vaccine and those can shed the virus and I am immunosuppressant/   The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have no way of shedding- they do no include live virus or any virus.  

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, ktgrok said:

The benefit of potentially not killing someone vs the con of....non hazardous slightly increased CO2? That's not clear cut?

And since I can't trust people to know if they are sick, having every unvaccinated person wear a mask in public is the only way to keep those who have symptoms masked. That's not because they are evil, but they may feel they just "have a headache from the weather" or "are allergic to pollen".

 

I developed a bad wound that landed me in a hospital.  I had my O2 checked all the time.  It was a bit lower when I was sick with the MSSA.  I left the hospital in third week of March and have had home nurses and weekly wound doctor visits to check my O2,  My O2 is the same whether masked or not.

[HeartString]

12 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I am someone who does have to stay away from vaccinated people-MMR vaccinated people because that is a live vaccine and those can shed the virus and I am immunosuppressant/   The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have no way of shedding- they do no include live virus or any virus.  

How long does the MMR have a risk of shedding? 

[TravelingChris]

5 minutes ago, HeartString said:

How long does the MMR have a risk of shedding? 

7 days.

My last child had to wait until I was off steroids to get her second MMR shot.  And the shedding of the live virus shots is basically only dangerous to people with lowered immunity, either due to medication or genetics or disease or maybe very old age. 

[Spy Car]

Monica Gandhi seems confused on the reasoning for Cal/OSHA's rules which recognize that unmasked/unvaxed people remain disease vectors. And this will also put social pressure on the unvaxed to get off the dime.

Viva California!

Bill

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, Plum said:

And then there's CA.....

UCSF expert: Gavin Newsom should overrule new 'unfathomable' workplace mask rules

 

Even though California is set to align with CDC guidance that individuals fully vaccinated against the coronavirus no longer need to wear masks in most instances on June 15, the state’s workplace safety agency may force employees at businesses across the state — even vaccinated employees — to wear masks for the foreseeable future.

On Thursday, the California Occupational Safety and Health Standards Board (Cal/OSHA) approved controversial guidelines that require all employees to wear masks unless everyone in a given room is fully vaccinated. The rules are expected to take effect June 15, the same day the state is scrapping its mask mandate.

Regulators said they may consider loosening guidelines at a later date, and Gov. Gavin Newsom has the power to overrule the agency with an executive order. Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease expert at UCSF, said Newsom should waste no time in overruling the stringent guidelines.

"The problem with Cal/OSHA's decision is that they’ve failed to embrace the effectiveness of vaccines," she said. "The CDC is an extremely cautious organization, but their recommendation that immunity from a vaccine is far more powerful than protection from a mask is sound. California's continued interest in adhering to masks in the face of high vaccination rates, low case rates and the CDC guidance is unfathomable."

Gandhi, who authored seven papers on the benefits of universal masking, does not believe there is any science that justifies Cal/OSHA's decision, especially since there is nothing stopping employees who wish to continue wearing masks from doing so. She stated that the only possible explanation behind the rules is that masking has become a political issue and that lifting mask mandates is seen as a right-wing position.

"The immunity we get from vaccines is a force field," she said. "Masks, social distancing, ventilation, contact tracing, those were all tools, but we now have a force field of protection. The big thing that California has done right is successfully roll out the vaccine, and that success is reflected in our high vaccination rates, our low case rates, and our low hospitalization rates. Those who are unvaccinated are protected by the immunity of those around them, which is the definition of herd immunity. When we open on June 15 and people are not going to be masking, I'm not concerned at all that cases or hospitalizations will go up because of the high population immunity we have in the state."

In addition to being a nuisance for fully vaccinated workers, Cal/OSHA's rules could have other negative effects, Gandhi warned.

"If Cal/OSHA imposes different requirements for businesses in our state that are not based on science, it may make our businesses less desirable for people," she said. "I'm thinking about tourists thinking about coming to visit our hotels, restaurants and other venues. If every other state follows the CDC guidance, we'll be seen as a less desirable place to visit because these rules are arbitrary and not following the science."

 

Are CA businesses allowed to ask workers for proof of vaccination and to verify the claims? Without that, businesses have no way of knowing who is and isn't vaxxed and who can safely take off their masks and who needs to keep them on. If people think vaxxed workers should be able to go maskless, then they should support the right of businesses to accurately make that distinction.

[AmandaVT]

On 6/2/2021 at 11:14 PM, Pen said:

@ktgrok you probably don’t want to consider this, but let’s say, hypothetically, in the event it does turn out that people who chose to get the jabs are actually putting out something potentially  harmful to others (I realize you don’t believe it could be so, but just as a hypothetical) , how do you want the people who chose to get the jabs to be treated?  Locked down?  Locked out of businesses, colleges, schools, jobs, air flights? etc? Permanent mask requirement?  

Vermont is, last I checked, leading the country in vaccination rates. And our rates of infection have dropped dramatically. We currently have 1 person hospitalized and zero deaths in more than 2 weeks. If, vaccines were causing harm by way of more harmful variants, we would have had an uptick in infection, not down to single digits-10 ish cases across the state. 

 

[SKL]

42 minutes ago, Plum said:

There you go CA! The Newsom appointed Cal/Osha Standards Board appears to have come to their senses. They cut it close since they have to announce changes 5 days in advance. 

What will California look like after June 15?

For fully vaccinated Californians, face masks will be a thing of the past as they will no longer be required in most situations starting next week when the state fully reopens.

Unvaccinated individuals, however, will still be required to mask up in public indoor settings – including restaurants when not eating or drinking, retail stores, and movie theaters.

At this time, 53% of the state is fully vaccinated, and 65% have at least one dose statewide, California’s top health official Dr. Ghaly announced in a phone conference with media Wednesday.

Here’s a breakdown of the face mask guidance effective June 15:

Guidance for individuals

Masks are not required for fully vaccinated individuals, except in the following settings where masks are required for everyone, regardless of vaccination status:

• On public transit[1] (examples: airplanes, ships, ferries, trains, subways, buses, taxis, and ride-shares) and in transportation hubs (examples: airport, bus terminal, marina, train station, seaport or other port, subway station, or any other area that provides transportation)
• Indoors in K-12 schools[2], childcare[3] and other youth settings.
  • Note: This may change as updated K-12 schools guidance is forthcoming, pending updates for K-12 operational guidance from the CDC.
• Healthcare settings[4] (including long term care facilities[5]) 
• State and local correctional facilities and detention centers[6]
• Homeless shelters[7], emergency shelters[8] and cooling centers[9] 

Additionally, masks are required** for unvaccinated individuals in indoor public settings and businesses (examples: retail, restaurants, theaters, family entertainment centers, meetings, state and local government offices serving the public).

**Guidance for businesses, venue operators or hosts 

In settings where masks are required only for unvaccinated individuals, businesses, venue operators or hosts may choose to:

• Provide information to all patrons, guests and attendees regarding vaccination requirements and allow vaccinated individuals to self-attest that they are in compliance prior to entry.
• Implement vaccine verification to determine whether individuals are required to wear a mask. 
• Require all patrons to wear masks.

No person can be prevented from wearing a mask as a condition of participation in an activity or entry into a business.

https://www.kron4.com/news/california/california-will-update-face-mask-guidelines-to-align-with-cdc-dr-ghaly/

 

Now they need to add that people who have had confirmed Covid (and are past the contagious period) also don't need to mask.  I wonder when that will happen in all the states.