Needy elderly parents after decades of a bad relationship

[Kassia]

Maybe there is a thread on this already, but I don't know where to look.

DH's parents have been awful to him, me, and our kids for as long as we've been together (35+ years).  They are both very selfish and my MIL is a liar, backstabber, and manipulator.  We live ten minutes from them and they have never been there for us and never done anything to have a relationship with our kids.  They have made my daughter cry and they have done hurtful things to all of us.  One of my sons is the most easygoing person I've ever met, and they even make him mad.  Another son (my sons are adults) doesn't want anything to do with them.

Anyway, a big fear of ours has always been what will happen as they age and need help - especially since we live so close.  We wanted to move to avoid that issue, but needed to wait until our youngest graduated from high school because of her DE opportunities where we live.  She just graduated.  DH had a sister (the favorite child who had the favorite grandchild - they didn't make any effort to hide this) who died from breast cancer so DH is the only child.

Over the years, we have distanced ourselves so we only talk on the phone for birthdays/anniversaries and only see them once a year for Christmas.  This has been wonderful.  

Well, now my FIL is having health issues and has been in and out of the hospital/nursing home.  He and my MIL call DH constantly (during work hours, early Saturday morning, whenever they "need" him).  They demand help and that DH return their calls immediately.  Before this, we NEVER heard from them (unless they needed something, of course).  DH has still been distant with them, but he does help and talk to them regularly now.  The constant phone calls and demands are getting to him, though.  Yesterday, he helped my MIL get gas.  Today, she called crying because she got a letter from Medicare she didn't understand and she wanted him to drop everything and come over.  It's like this all the time.  Yet, when we needed help over the years, we never contacted them - we just didn't have that kind of relationship with them.  

I'm wondering if anyone has been in this situation and how they handled it.  

 

[prairiewindmomma]

We had a conversation in our immediate family about what we were and weren’t willing to do. Eventually we had to set those boundaries verbally with them directly.  We screen phone calls and return them at our convenience unless there is a legitimate emergency. We helped set up some outside resources.

I recommend clearly articulating in your mind what you are and aren’t willing to do. I recommend not getting drawn into the drama loop. I recommend not doing anything they can do for themselves, learn to do for themselves, or pay to have done for them. I also recommend that if health and safety allow, putting boundaries around bad behavior....if they threaten/lie/manipulate, etc., the help ends for a time. For us, that means the behavior towards us directly. We have not included the trash talking they did about us to other family members, shared friends, neighbors, etc. 
 

The hardest part in our experience is working on our own heads and hearts. For us, sometimes the most loving thing we can do is to not allow them to abuse us. You can do that while still helping them receive the care they need.

[Slache]

Kindness matters but I will not allow myself to be abused. I moved away to avoid what you're going through.

I like Prarie's advice about a meeting and laying down boundaries. I believe some of the boundaries should include returning phone calls once a week and meeting at their house once a month if necessary. They are not his responsibility. If they wanted a relationship of mutual respect they would have formed one years ago. They don't get to demand one now.

[prairiewindmomma]

I forgot to add....setting a specific time for helping can be a boundary. “Add it to the list for x day” can be a way to limit on the frequency of calls. Likewise, texting a photo of a letter is way to minimize time spent away. You can explain it without having to make a trip over and getting looped into a bazillion other things.

I also want to clarify, I have a healthy relationship with other older family members. The dynamics are completely different. Completely. If you haven’t seen real dysfunction you may not understand why there needs to be such explicit boundaries.

[Tap]

IF (and that is a big IF) he wants to help, then I would set aside 1/2 day, once a week (or two) to go over and do what needs to be done during that time. Have them write down what needs to be done and he can help with it. I work in pharmacy and deal with people who go from vibrant adults to needing help all day long. It is usually a slow progression, but not always. I see lots of families who do the half day of labor, and it seems to help both parties. The patient knows when help is coming, and the help knows when to put on an emotional shield and power through the half day of labor. People who are bored, often perseverate on little things (like a Medicare letter). It is very, very hard for them to let it go, but that doesn't mean it has to drive you nuts in the meanwhile. The families who get burnt out and are full of the upmost level of resentment, are those who let the whims of others, rule their lives. If they call, either ignore the ring or don't engage the conversation and tell them 'dh will be over at 9am on Sunday, talk to him about it then". If he does do this, I would start planting the seed of looking at care homes or in-home nursing. 

 

IF he  doesn't want to help (understandably), then he should tell them to find other help, and not go bail them out all the time. Boundaries are hard to enforce in the beginning, but easier over time. Suggest they ask their friends for recommendations for in-home help. Senior Services is a good place to start. 

((((Huggs)))). It is especially hard to have to start taking care of people, who don't understand the emotional damage they created in the first place. 

[Slache]

5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I also want to clarify, I have a healthy relationship with other older family members. The dynamics are completely different. Completely. 

Very this!

[Slache]

Christian talk. In the book Boundaries (highly recommend by the way) it talks about how we are responsible for ourselves and to others. We are responsible for our daily load, but when someone is faced with a boulder they need our help. Do net them make their daily loads into boulders.

[gardenmom5]

38 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Maybe there is a thread on this already, but I don't know where to look.

DH's parents have been awful to him, me, and our kids for as long as we've been together (35+ years).  They are both very selfish and my MIL is a liar, backstabber, and manipulator.  We live ten minutes from them and they have never been there for us and never done anything to have a relationship with our kids.  They have made my daughter cry and they have done hurtful things to all of us.  One of my sons is the most easygoing person I've ever met, and they even make him mad.  Another son (my sons are adults) doesn't want anything to do with them.

Anyway, a big fear of ours has always been what will happen as they age and need help - especially since we live so close.  We wanted to move to avoid that issue, but needed to wait until our youngest graduated from high school because of her DE opportunities where we live.  She just graduated.  DH had a sister (the favorite child who had the favorite grandchild - they didn't make any effort to hide this) who died from breast cancer so DH is the only child.  IRONY ALERT

Over the years, we have distanced ourselves so we only talk on the phone for birthdays/anniversaries and only see them once a year for Christmas.  This has been wonderful.  

Well, now my FIL is having health issues and has been in and out of the hospital/nursing home.  He and my MIL call DH constantly (during work hours, early Saturday morning, whenever they "need" him).  They demand help and that DH return their calls immediately.  Before this, we NEVER heard from them (unless they needed something, of course).  DH has still been distant with them, but he does help and talk to them regularly now.  The constant phone calls and demands are getting to him, though.  Yesterday, he helped my MIL get gas.  Today, she called crying because she got a letter from Medicare she didn't understand and she wanted him to drop everything and come over.  It's like this all the time.  Yet, when we needed help over the years, we never contacted them - we just didn't have that kind of relationship with them.  

I'm wondering if anyone has been in this situation and how they handled it.  

 

Have you followed any of the threads on narcissistic parents?  there are some good youtube channels - Dr.Ramani, Dr. Les Carter/ surviving narcissism, / Joanna Kujath.  Dr. Ramani, and dr. Carter both have some excellent tips on how to deal with the narcissist.

then - 

While the bible tells us to honor our parents (not sure if you're religious or not.  that can make for a more difficult figuring things out.) - it doesn't tell us to allow ourselves to be abused by our parents.  (not allowing them to abuse us is honoring them.)  So. BOUNDARIES.

1.  meals on wheels.  does your area have that?

2. a handy-man.   many senior agencies/services have some of these for lower cost.

3. MAKE A CALENDAR of what days and times your dh is available to help.  Make a list of what he is able to do.  STICK TO IT.   if there is an emergency that can't wait, that's fine.  A stroke requires immediate medical care.  Going to the grocery store doesn't.

4. senior centers for regular activities.  if they are doing something - they will be "occupied", and less likely to bother you.

5. visiting health nurse if they have medical problems.

are they in a sr. living facility?  they would provide most of these types of services.  Is it possible to move them into one?  (on the guise of their lives would be much easier.)

when mil was alive, she lived at 2sil's house.  She had the calendar on the wall of her 'apartment".   1sil was supposed to run her around.  She would turn off the volume on her phone.  If they only call you on a cell phone - you can choose the ring so you know it's them.  you can screen their calls and only deal with them at a certain time.

They're going to complain.  that's what they do.  Don't delude yourself being nice to them will change that.  It won't. 

 

and it does sound like your fil needs to be in a nursing home - there are ones that are less than a nursing home - assisted living - but more than living on their own with help.

 

dh is an insurance agent. he will only ever help medicare clients in person.  never over the phone because he considers it to be that confusing for his clients.  Most he's able to explain so they can understand it.  Even my brother who is an EE, was trying to help his father in law who got a "I don't understand this" letter.  My brother finally decided it was "fake", and threw it away.  But he'd sent it to me, I sent it to dh who said IT"S REAL!  DON'T IGNORE IT! Then explained to him what needed to be done.

[Arcadia]

29 minutes ago, Kassia said:

They demand help and that DH return their calls immediately... 

The constant phone calls and demands are getting to him, though.  

My husband isn’t an only child but he is the one that gets “harassed” by his parents because his siblings are the favorites. My husband is unintentionally oblivious to his cellphone ringing when he is charging his cellphone at home. That reduced the number of “nuisance calls”.
 

My in-laws can be rather self centered at times and they have never accepted boundaries so even after moving to another country we still have to not be so quick to pick up the phone or return a call. My in-laws would hint for us to buy things for them or pay for their wants. So moving far far away just prevent them from dropping by whenever it suits them to ask my husband to do their errands. Their favorites also moved as far away as possible. 
 

My husband had to mute his cellphone at work because his parents would call whenever they are bored and assumed my husband won’t get looks from his boss and colleagues. My husband realized the frequency of the phone calls would harm his performance appraisal as his parents are healthy and just want to chitchat (he doesn’t get “penalized“ for medical related calls). My husband would call back thinking it’s an emergency and then his parents won’t hang up despite him telling them he had to work. 

My dad can be needy at times but he accepts a “No, I’m busy right now”. My late grandma was rather self centered; it taught us grandchildren self preservation. I am glad my grandma died before my brother was born. My dad didn’t “protect” me from his mom, his brothers did. I was also rather bossy as a kid so grandma looked for easier targets.

[mathnerd]

11 minutes ago, Slache said:

 If they wanted a relationship of mutual respect they would have formed one years ago. They don't get to demand one now.

I have a similar situation as well. I moved away and it does not help as they get old and desperate. Without going into too many details, NPD is an issue and abuse and manipulation was the norm for decades. I am looking for ideas for keeping myself upbeat despite someone dumping their life's garbage on me. So, I am following this thread along to see if I can get some ideas as well.

[Slache]

4 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

I have a similar situation as well. I moved away and it does not help as they get old and desperate. Without going into too many details, NPD is an issue and abuse and manipulation was the norm for decades. I am looking for ideas for keeping myself upbeat despite someone dumping their life's garbage on me. So, I am following this thread along to see if I can get some ideas as well.

I don't answer the phone or respond to texts. DH calls them once a week with a time limit to avoid his (entirely unintentional) horrendous attitude after too long of a conversation. When something happens that involves more phone calls we all pay the price.

[almondbutterandjelly]

Well, at the moment, I do drive my narcissist dm to her doctor appointments.  I mostly stay quiet so as not to feed her.  I bring a book to read which I open at the earliest opportunity.  I do not go into the exam room.

However, I have looked into Care.com and did you know they have senior caregivers and drivers and companions?  I am keeping that info in my back pocket.  Also, Uber and Lyft and taxis exist.  If she doesn't behave, I will put them on her phone, show her once how to use them, and bow out.  

I would have moved if we could.  (I am very lucky though in that my db lives with my parents and gets the brunt of things.)

Boundaries.  Yep.  

 

[Slache]

8 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

I have a similar situation as well. I moved away and it does not help as they get old and desperate. Without going into too many details, NPD is an issue and abuse and manipulation was the norm for decades. I am looking for ideas for keeping myself upbeat despite someone dumping their life's garbage on me. So, I am following this thread along to see if I can get some ideas as well.

Read boundaries!

[Slache]

And everyone read this, too.

https://narcissisticmil.wordpress.com/

[Slache]

If you want to avoid drama learn the grey rock method.

[gardenmom5]

19 minutes ago, Slache said:

Christian talk. In the book Boundaries (highly recommend by the way) it talks about how we are responsible for ourselves and to others. We are responsible for our daily load, but when someone is faced with a boulder they need our help. Do net them make their daily loads into boulders.

This.  Just because they call their "daily load" a boulder doens't make it a boulder, or does it mean you have to help them with it.  

11 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

My husband isn’t an only child but he is the one that gets “harassed” by his parents because his siblings are the favorites. My husband is unintentionally oblivious to his cellphone ringing when he is charging his cellphone at home. That reduced the number of “nuisance calls”.
 

My in-laws can be rather self centered at times and they have never accepted boundaries so even after moving to another country we still have to not be so quick to pick up the phone or return a call. My in-laws would hint for us to buy things for them or pay for their wants. So moving far far away just prevent them from dropping by whenever it suits them to ask my husband to do their errands. Their favorites also moved as far away as possible. 
 

My husband had to mute his cellphone at work because his parents would call whenever they are bored and assumed my husband won’t get looks from his boss and colleagues. My husband realized the frequency of the phone calls would harm his performance appraisal as his parents are healthy and just want to chitchat (he doesn’t get “penalized“ for medical related calls). My husband would call back thinking it’s an emergency and then his parents won’t hang up despite him telling them he had to work. 

My dad can be needy at times but he accepts a “No, I’m busy right now”. My late grandma was rather self centered; it taught us grandchildren self preservation. I am glad my grandma died before my brother was born. My dad didn’t “protect” me from his mom, his brothers did. I was also rather bossy as a kid so grandma looked for easier targets.

snicker.  My brother was the golden child. He moved away for 20 years when he was 20 years old, but he didn't realize the mess he was leaving.

when they won't hang up - you're on a phone.  "goodbye, I'll talk to you later". click.  doesn't matter if they keep talking and wont' say goodbye - hang up anyway.  boundaries.  You're not being rude - they are for refusing to respect that you don't have time to talk right now.  

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, Slache said:

I don't answer the phone or respond to texts. DH calls them once a week with a time limit to avoid his (entirely unintentional) horrendous attitude after too long of a conversation. When something happens that involves more phone calls we all pay the price.

I had a 15 minute time limit, once a week, with my grandmother.  as long as she was polite.  if she was rude, I said goodbye and hung up until the next week.  One phone call was about three minutes.

when something happens, I would advise to "keep it business".  no chitchat, etc.  if the conversation is more focused it should be more productive - and shorter.

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

  But nothing like abuse or anything like that.  . 

don't underestimate the damaging effects of psychological abuse.  (I say this only because so many people who aren't familiar with it do.)  gaslighting is abuse, and is often not recognized as such.  the term originated with the movie "Gaslight" with Charles Boyer and Ingrid Bergman.

I am also one who espouses a religious teaching of "honor our parents, be our brother's keeper" . .  as you know, sometimes extreme boundaries are required.  often, things taken in isolation might seem trivial - but pennies add up.  death by a 1000 cuts, is still death, even if none of them are particularly damaging by themselves.

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Hmm..my reply was also heavily influenced by culture. We had grandparents living with us and who helped raise us.

Sometimes parents are so toxic that the only way to comply with filial piety is with paying for their medical needs but staying a safe distance away. There is a Chinese saying “give an inch and they will take a yard”. 

[Slache]

6 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Hmm..my reply was also heavily influenced by culture. We had grandparents living with us and who helped raise us. Currently my brother lives right next door to my parents and he and my sis in law help them in day to day and they help by looking after my brother's kids. But my husband and I go constantly, even creating a lifestyle where one of us takes over house and kids while we go there if needed. We cannot do much really, just 21 days at a time, but we do it because we believe helping parents is part of our responsibility. One of the reasons I stopped working FT is because as parents and inlaws grew older and needed us more, I went instead of my husband even for inlaws. 

My mom and grandmother had issues. Grandma was a true matriarch and resented giving control. Even now I have issues with control with both mom and mil even as they come and help us. Misunderstandings. But nothing like abuse or anything like that. I always think though we must help parents because without them we would not exist. Very much cultural. I don't even know why I am saying or what I am trying to say exactly except say help. Firm boundaries, but help. Pay for help if you cannot do it yourself. I am not saying any of it is easy, but every single time I had a difference with my inlaws especially mil I remember a large part of who my husband is because they raised him. 

I have cut off relatives, often ruthlessly because they said some stupid thing. But I have looser boundaries for my parents and inlaws. I guess it comes under duty for me. I am not articulating well and I am rambling, but my sincere advice is help. I would not say that about everybody or even extended family, but parents and inlaws I have different standards because I think we would not the people we were if not for them. So even if their terrible behavior made you stronger, help them. With firm boundaries. 

Not arguing, but I disagree. My mother had me for selfish reasons and the most parenting she did was to keep me alive and she didn't put too much effort in at that. Our life is our responsibility and if OPs in laws did not meet that responsibility it does not fall to OP. Like I said, if they wanted a relationship of mutual respect (and care), they would have initiated one. They can't choose to spend their lives neglecting OPs needs and then expect theirs to be met in turn.

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Slache said:

Not arguing, but I disagree. My mother had me for selfish reasons and the most parenting she did was to keep me alive and she didn't put too much effort in at that. Our life is our responsibility and if OPs in laws did not meet that responsibility it does not fall to OP. Like I said, if they wanted a relationship of mutual respect (and care), they would have initiated one. They can't choose to spend their lives neglecting OPs needs and then expect theirs to be met in turn.

mil could see into 2sil's kitchen from her apartment.  I was standing in there one day, chatting with niece.  (mil was watching us.)  I commented "you couldn't pay me to take care of her". (she lived in my house for a year.)  Dn replied "not for $1M."  (both sils were receiving money to care for her.)  Later this came up with dh.  He said "yes you would.  You'd take the $1M, and pay someone else to take care of her."

Sometimes we care for them   because we are trying to be a better human being.    paying someone else to do it, is still making sure they're cared for, but not having to put ourselves in their midst.  I was never willing to risk my sanity. (and I don't think we have to.)

[Slache]

I dropped everything and put my life on hold to care for my dying grandmother who could not care for herself. It was gross and exhausting and stressful, and I cherished every minute of it. I am not anti-elder care, I am anti-abuse.

[Slache]

10 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I don't know your history so pardon if I say something out of turn. You are a homeschooling mother I assume so you probably put a higher value on mothering your children than many people. So do I on mothering my children Not everyone's life or mother is like that and I get that. However and this is very much christian and the value of life to me, she did choose to give you life. So that matters to me. That is where the idea of duty comes from for me towards parents and a standard I would not apply to anyone else in my life. I also believe in compassion and kindness to those who do not deserve us and boundaries. So trying to figure out what is healthy. But those are my standards and the caveat is I am lucky I had good parents and grandparents. 

OP, I apologize if I come across like guilting you. Please do whatever it is that is mentally healthy for all of you. 

She had me so she would have someone to abuse and it sounds like OP's in laws did the same. I would not consider life a gift from someone like that. If a dog is rescued just to be beaten should it be grateful it was rescued?

Edited June 3, 2020 by Slache

[Moonhawk]

I wrote a whole long thing about my DH and his family. But the details are irrelevant, just know that I am coming from a similar situation.

On the idea of "they gave him life so he owes them", life is supposedly a gift, and the best use of it he can make of it is to be happy. If limiting contact helps that, then so be it.

I think he could help them find other people to step in (Uber, meals on wheels, social services), but never take on jobs himself. They will use that inch to insist on more:

If he rakes the leaves, he should have cleaned the gutters at the same time and put everything into the trash...

       If he put stuff into the trash, he should have sorted the mail and shredded the junk for the trash first...

            If he sorted the mail, he should have opened the letters and made sure the bills were put to the side...

                 If he put the bills to the side, he should have helped them figure out when they were due...

They will get angry about it, but they were going to be angry about something anyway. At least this limits your husband's burden of having to deal with it. 

I would still look into moving.

Good luck with this {{{{hugs}}}} It is a very very difficult position to be in. 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

 

I don't know your history so pardon if I say something out of turn. You are a homeschooling mother I assume so you probably put a higher value on mothering your children than many people.

 

 

Wow, that's a really offensive assumption. I don't know why you'd say that, even on a board where most posters homeschool some or all of their kids for some or all of their education.

OP, the first thing to do is talk openly and honestly with your husband about what sort of expectations are reasonable and what expectations aren't. How much time are you willing to spend on your inlaws' problems every day/week/month? How much energy and effort and money? Can any of this be outsourced to other people?

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

 

OP, the first thing to do is talk openly and honestly with your husband about what sort of expectations are reasonable and what expectations aren't. How much time are you willing to spend on your inlaws' problems every day/week/month? How much energy and effort and money? Can any of this be outsourced to other people?

This:

just an addition - when figuring out how much time/etc. you're willing to spend, please consider the mental engery - and sanity - required to do all these things.

it's not helping, if you're making yourself crazy at the same time.  plus, you still need to care for your children, and yourself.

[Moonhawk]

Just now, gardenmom5 said:

This:

just an addition - when figuring out how much time/etc. you're willing to spend, please consider the mental engery - and sanity - required to do all these things.

it's not helping, if you're making yourself crazy at the same time.  plus, you still need to care for your children, and yourself.

Yes! Writing a card to his mom can derail my DH for a day. It isn't just 15 minutes and a stamp. It's not just the time and money you are protecting, it's the entire person. 

[Slache]

4 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

For context, It comes from a place of a PS mother who is struggling just to cyber school her with resources, has heavily after schooled and is terrified of doing homeschooling potentially in the fall. People misspeak, often clumsily but why should it always be assumed to come from a place of wanting to offend. Before you get offended perhaps that is something to consider ?

 OP, sorry for derailing the thread. 

Oh, honey don't be scared. What happened to most people with this pandemic does not resemble what the rest of us go through. Homeschooling is much more relaxed and simple than that.

I know I can't make you not stress, but if you asked 1,000 homeschoolers if this was something to stress about you would have 1,000 people telling you no.

[Arcadia]

55 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I get the filial piety among Asian cultures. But you do pay for their medical needs right ? And that is what I meant by help. 

My in-laws are in a much better financial position than all their children as they were working during a time period when employment was stable and plentiful. They still guilt trip their children for vacation and shopping money. Their daughter is unemployed for years and couldn't get a job, drove for Uber but due to COVID there is no demand. Her adult children are retrenched (1 child) and likely to be retrenched (1 child). Their other son has been unemployed a few times and may be retrenched again as his employer (Dell) was retrenching in phases pre-COVID. My husband was unemployed years ago. My parents are financially better off than us. So my generation is kind of in a weird financial position. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Arcadia
typo

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

For context, It comes from a place of a PS mother who is struggling just to cyber school her with resources, has heavily after schooled and is terrified of doing homeschooling potentially in the fall. People misspeak, often clumsily but why should it always be assumed to come from a place of wanting to offend. Before you get offended perhaps that is something to consider ?

 OP, sorry for derailing the thread. 

(please don't take this the wrong way)

Never assume malice when attributing foot-in-mouth disease works just as well.

Life is gentler when we are more willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

And this is something for all of us to remember and think about. - sorry for getting derailed.  It's been stressful lately.

I was recently listening to a woman who has learned that lesson.  The compassion that comes from being more willing to give grace because we don't know peoples stories..  She shared the story of being on an airplane with a screaming child who would not settle.  They had left the gate, but not taken-off.  The parents finally said we can't do this and need to get off.  The pilot went back to the gate.  People were glad the child was gone, but grumpy at their disruption to their flight schedule. She realizing she wasn't going to make her connection - asked to get off.

she spoke with the parents in the lounge area (as they were still trying to calm the child.)  She had previously learned about giving the benefit of the doubt - and what she learned that day shows why.

It was a foster child who had been rescued from being trafficked in eastern Europe.  every time he was moved to a new location - he was put on an airplane.  If the people on that plane knew his story - not a single one of them would have condemned him for screaming, or the foster parents for not being able to quiet a screaming child.

That is an extreme example - but everyone has their background.

sometimes it's easier to show grace/benefit than others - but the world is a better place when we do.

Edited June 3, 2020 by gardenmom5

[Tanaqui]

23 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

For context, It comes from a place of a PS mother who is struggling just to cyber school her with resources, has heavily after schooled and is terrified of doing homeschooling potentially in the fall. People misspeak, often clumsily but why should it always be assumed to come from a place of wanting to offend. Before you get offended perhaps that is something to consider ?

 OP, sorry for derailing the thread. 

 

Wow. Just, wow. Maybe *you* should consider thinking a little before you post, because this comment, too, is pretty darn offensive.

Incidentally, when I say that you said something offensive - twice now! - I don't start off assuming you wanted to offend, just like if I say that you stepped on my foot i don't start off assuming that you wanted to step on my foot and break my toes.

Whatever place you come from, I think we can all agree that most parents love their kids and value parenting them. And if you check the news I think we can also all agree that some parents don't take very good care of their kids and that this is equally true whether those parents choose to homeschool or not. Whether you intend to offend or not, there is no need to suggest that people in one group can be generalized as valuing mothering their children more than people in some other group, unless the groups we delineated are "abusive parents vs. nonabusive parents". (And even then, plenty of abusive parents believe they love their kids and value parenting them an awful lot.)

Edited June 3, 2020 by Tanaqui

[Slache]

7 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

(please don't take this the wrong way)

Never assume malice when attributing foot-in-mouth disease works just as well.

Life is gentler when we are more willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

And this is something for all of us to remember and think about. - sorry for getting derailed.  It's been stressful lately.

I was recently listening to a woman who has learned that lesson.  The compassion that comes from being more willing to give grace because we don't know peoples stories..  She shared the story of being on an airplane with a screaming child who would not settle.  They had left the gate, but not taken-off.  The parents finally said we can't do this and need to get off.  The pilot went back to the gate.  People were glad the child was gone, but grumpy at their disruption to their flight schedule. She realizing she wasn't going to make her connection - asked to get off.

she spoke with the parents in the lounge area (as they were still trying to calm the child.)  She had previously learned about giving the benefit of the doubt - and what she learned that day shows why.

It was a foster child who had been rescued from being trafficked in eastern Europe.  every time he was moved to a new location - he was put on an airplane.  If the people on that plane knew his story - not a single one of them would have condemned him for screaming, or the foster parents for not being able to quiet a screaming child.

That is an extreme example - but everyone has their background.

sometimes it's easier to show grace/benefit than others - but the world is a better place when we do.

Do you know what happened to the kid?

2 minutes ago, mms said:

Learning about boundaries and narcissism helped, but only so much because all those other things: duty, honor, piety are still there. It makes me rather schizophrenic at times. It would make for a good Russian novel, but not when I’m living it.

Yep, yep, yep!

[SereneHome]

For full disclosure - I am not a Christian and those type of parents are completely foreign to me bc I don't know anyone with such toxic parents.

But I wanted to say this - whatever help they will get from your husband, I think it has to be his decision alone. Yes, I understand that your husband's decisions effect you and your family, but i think when it comes to parents, we all have different ways we relate to them and feel about them. And so for your husband not to have any regrets, I think he should be the one driving this.

Oh and as far as setting example for the kids - while of course, kindness is important, I also think it's important to teach our kids (whatever ages they are) that being used and abused in ANY relationships is not healthy

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, Slache said:

Do you know what happened to the kid?

Yep, yep, yep!

I dont' know anything after this encounter that she shared. He was in foster care here in the US - presumably, he was out of the trafficking world and getting therapy.

I believe there is a special place in hell for people who do this to children.

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 if you do listen or run right over, it has little effect other than making them happy that they can control the target.    Just like when supervising a four year old, don't take anything personally.  They will attack when displeased....protect yourself. Expect that they will be manipulative when they feel the focus is off them and onto the immediate family.

I am a broken record when I take a call  "sorry to hear that.  Did the doctor's suggestion work? Oh, you didn't try it. Well, we'll talk when you do.  Have a good day".  

 

also be aware - happiness is transitory.  what they're really after is "narcissistic supply".  happiness is dependent upon what is happening in the 'now'.  and they chase it like a drug.

dh was invariably cheerful with my grandmother.  she hated his guts for it.  He answered one day and in her misery was told she had just been to her oncologist.  she was cancer free after five years. "That's wonderful, you should be so happy."  the woman couldn't get off the phone with him fast enough.  No - it wasn't' wonderful that she was declared cancer free after five years, what was she supposed to moan and groan about now?

 

3 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

For full disclosure - I am not a Christian and those type of parents are completely foreign to me bc I don't know anyone with such toxic parents.

 

I'm confused by this statement. what does one have to do with the other?

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

I always try, the imperative word is try to give grace because not everyone comes with the same experiences. But I am also tired of everything seen from being an offensive place you know. I have spoken clumsily on this thread, I get it and I come from a whole another culture with it's own thinking and values. So perhaps I have no business even replying on this thread. But I am tired of everything being seen as offensive or different views being seen as offensive. I am trying to give grace but in this situation not sure how as apparently I have offended not once but twice if a further post down thread is any indication. Oh well.

I have ASD.  I've put my foot in my mouth more times than I can count. (on this, and other forums over the years.)  I learned a lot in the process.  There are times I still see things very much from an ASD perspective, and am lost by NTs (neurotypical) perspective.  My dysfunctional family just threw gasoline on that fire . . . . 

Communication is important - and I think we all need to be willing to talk.  I'm glad your here.  I started out trying to home school my ASD son.  He was more than I could handle.  The school had an entire team leaving me free to deal with his medical stuff.  It actually made me feel better when I chatted with Susan Wise Bauer one day when she was here - and she said one of her regrets was not putting a particular child in public school.  She thinks in retrospect - it would have been a better fit for him.  My son is now 15, and we're still struggling to come up with something that works for him educationally.

[SereneHome]

19 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

also be aware - happiness is transitory.  what they're really after is "narcissistic supply".  happiness is dependent upon what is happening in the 'now'.  and they chase it like a drug.

dh was invariably cheerful with my grandmother.  she hated his guts for it.  He answered one day and in her misery was told she had just been to her oncologist.  she was cancer free after five years. "That's wonderful, you should be so happy."  the woman couldn't get off the phone with him fast enough.  No - it wasn't' wonderful that she was declared cancer free after five years, what was she supposed to moan and groan about now?

 

I'm confused by this statement. what does one have to do with the other?

I was just saying that I can't offer perspective from either Christian point of view or from the perspective of having to deal with those type of relationships.

[Jean in Newcastle]

20 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I always try, the imperative word is try to give grace because not everyone comes with the same experiences. But I am also tired of everything seen from being an offensive place you know. I have spoken clumsily on this thread, I get it and I come from a whole another culture with it's own thinking and values. So perhaps I should not have replied on this thread. But I am tired of everything being seen as offensive or different views being seen as offensive. I am trying to give grace but in this situation not sure how as apparently I have offended not once but twice if a further post down thread by the poster I offended originally  is any indication. Oh well.

OP, I do not want to derail this thread so I am going to reply to certain posts and step away. I wish you all the best as you try to figure it out. 

The problem is that this has zero to do with American vs. Asian culture.  Or Christian vs. non-Christian culture.  It has to do with the dynamics of actual abuse.  And if you don't understand those dynamics then you don't understand those dynamics.  And of course coming into a thread which is clearly about that is a bit presumptuous. 

My husband was the golden child (aka only boy) in an narcissistic Asian family.  Or rather his mother was narcissistic.  Everyone else bowed to her screaming fits / tantrums.  Until dh got married to an evil wife who took him away and drew strong boundaries.  The strong boundaries were drawn with a smile and respectful Asian cultural norms but they were still strong boundaries.  Loving and respecting others has nothing to do with allowing them to abuse you.  In fact, I would say that it is not loving to allow someone to continue to sin in such a way.

It was so much easier once MIL got dementia.  But then I was the one who was fighting for her to get actual care instead of medical neglect.  Everyone was so used to taking her abuse that they were bowing to the wishes of a woman who no longer knew how to care for herself. 

[MercyA]

@Dreamergal, I just told my husband, and now I'm telling you: I am *so* glad you are on this board. I have really enjoyed hearing your perspective on a myriad of topics. (This is no judgment on anyone else who has posted in this thread.)

BTW, you can totally homeschool. It doesn't have to be complicated. For an open-and-go curriculum, I love Christian Light Education. They are a non-profit organization, so their curriculum is inexpensive, but still very high quality. 

I absolutely hope you stick around! You are a gift to the forum.

[Kassia]

Thank you so much everyone!  Lots of good information here.  

I am fully (well, mostly) supportive of whatever DH chooses to do (so far) because I absolutely don't want him to have regrets later.  He has been pretty good so far about setting boundaries with them, having them use other resources when possible, etc.  They are fortunate to be well off financially and can hire out, but they don't want to spend the money.  Not his problem.  He doesn't jump to return calls and will tell them when they are interrupting his workday with matters that aren't urgent.  But, he is getting stressed that it's becoming a daily routine now with phone calls, things to help with in person, etc.  This is something we both wanted to avoid and it's really getting to him.  If it were temporary, he'd be ok, but he's worried this is going to be long lasting.

My mother was a narcissist.  A friend of mine advised me to "be the bigger person" and I took her advice and regretted it because it came back to haunt me.  She was a dangerous woman, though.  My MIL isn't as bad and my FIL is just self-centered and thoughtless.  

Thank you again for the advice and support!  It is always very much appreciated.  ❤️

[fairfarmhand]

38 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Thank you so much everyone!  Lots of good information here.  

I am fully (well, mostly) supportive of whatever DH chooses to do (so far) because I absolutely don't want him to have regrets later.  He has been pretty good so far about setting boundaries with them, having them use other resources when possible, etc.  They are fortunate to be well off financially and can hire out, but they don't want to spend the money.  Not his problem.  He doesn't jump to return calls and will tell them when they are interrupting his workday with matters that aren't urgent.  But, he is getting stressed that it's becoming a daily routine now with phone calls, things to help with in person, etc.  This is something we both wanted to avoid and it's really getting to him.  If it were temporary, he'd be ok, but he's worried this is going to be long lasting.

My mother was a narcissist.  A friend of mine advised me to "be the bigger person" and I took her advice and regretted it because it came back to haunt me.  She was a dangerous woman, though.  My MIL isn't as bad and my FIL is just self-centered and thoughtless.  

Thank you again for the advice and support!  It is always very much appreciated.  ❤️

This stuff irritates the crap out of me. I hate it for you guys.

I think that if your dh says out loud to his parents. "Because you do not respect my work hours, I will no longer answer calls between the hours of X and X because I'm working. If you have an emergency, I guess you'll need to call 911. I will return calls at 7 p.m. on Tuesday evenings. I will come by every other Saturday morning for 4 hours."

When you spell out the boundaries, it feels pretty good to send a call to voice mail or ignore something because they've been told already. It's like you can block off the mental energy needed to decide, "Should I take this call? Ugh, I'm going to have to go over there and fix the toilet." The decision is already made so it doesn't stress you out as much.

 

@Dreamergal Stick around. Everyone;s a little edgy these days. Many many people have no experience with these kinds of relationships. I think that you did a great job of trying to explain yourself and I read your stuff and thought, "Yep, she hasn't been around very many of these kinds of unhealthy folks." You tried to be respectful and I could see where you were coming from. It's just a totally different world and you should be SOOO thankful that you don't "get" what some of us are talking about! I don't resent that at all. I wish nobody existed who treats their loved ones with such scorn. 

[KungFuPanda]

Your DH has to choose between having a tough conversation and being run ragged. So far he’s choosing constant harassment. He needs to be willing to be “mean”and tell them exactly what he will do. He has to be very clear and not overestimate his own energy and patience level. “I will call you on the weekend to check up and stop by twice monthly for x minutes.”  Send every call you voice mail. Tell them to call an ambulance for medical emergencies. 
 

It might help if he explains to them that you’ve been planning a move for years and they need to get systems in place, even if it’s assisted living,  for when you leave. It doesn’t matter if you actually move or not. If he’s putting in the time with them, it might as well be to direct them to services. He can’t let them form habits. 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

 We are in a weird financial position too. Just because we are in America does not mean we are rich. Middle class and one salary is the same everywhere pretty much but try explaining it to people. 

Middle class is kind of transient depending on job security and debt level. When I mean weird financial position, I meant something like this 

e.g. (numbers all not real of course)

in-laws: > $500k in CDs, “social security”, health insurance, very low property tax and utilities, no income tax

their children: various amounts of debts >$100k, health insurance, higher property tax and utilities, high income tax, children to feed and shelter, negligible savings of any kind

In-laws have said that having children is money for old age. Using filial piety as emotional blackmail, they ask for regular gifts of money and of expensive branded items. 

So it’s kind of like the emperor demanding money from his/her subjects. 

[Arcadia]

55 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

It might help if he explains to them that you’ve been planning a move for years and they need to get systems in place, even if it’s assisted living,  for when you leave. It doesn’t matter if you actually move or not. 

That might lead to emotional blackmail. My BIL has to plan his move on the sly. He moved from being 5mins walk away to about 30mins by door to door public transit. My in-laws would still drop in uninvited but at least not daily.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The problem is that this has zero to do with American vs. Asian culture.  Or Christian vs. non-Christian culture.  It has to do with the dynamics of actual abuse.  And if you don't understand those dynamics then you don't understand those dynamics.  And of course coming into a thread which is clearly about that is a bit presumptuous. 

My husband was the golden child (aka only boy) in an narcissistic Asian family.  Or rather his mother was narcissistic.  Everyone else bowed to her screaming fits / tantrums.  Until dh got married to an evil wife who took him away and drew strong boundaries.  The strong boundaries were drawn with a smile and respectful Asian cultural norms but they were still strong boundaries.  Loving and respecting others has nothing to do with allowing them to abuse you.  In fact, I would say that it is not loving to allow someone to continue to sin in such a way.

It was so much easier once MIL got dementia.  But then I was the one who was fighting for her to get actual care instead of medical neglect.  Everyone was so used to taking her abuse that they were bowing to the wishes of a woman who no longer knew how to care for herself. 

this.  

My sister kept saying something was wrong with her fil, but everyone was so used to ignoring him and her dh has no power in that family.  her mil and both sils are fairly narcissistic.  He died from cancer a few months later.  (shocker of shocker - our father and her fil were in the same high school graduating class in a city with four high schools.)

2 hours ago, Kassia said:

  I absolutely don't want him to have regrets later.  He has been pretty good so far about setting boundaries with them, having them use other resources when possible, etc.  They are fortunate to be well off financially and can hire out, but they don't want to spend the money.  Not his problem. 1 He doesn't jump to return calls and will tell them when they are interrupting his workday with matters that aren't urgent.  But, he is getting stressed that it's becoming a daily routine now with phone calls, things to help with in person, etc.  This is something we both wanted to avoid and it's really getting to him.  If it were temporary, he'd be ok, but he's worried this is going to be long lasting.

My mother was a narcissist.  A friend of mine advised me to "be the bigger person" and I took her advice and regretted it because it came back to haunt me.  She was a dangerous woman, though.  My MIL isn't as bad and my FIL is just self-centered and thoughtless.  

Thank you again for the advice and support!  It is always very much appreciated.  ❤️

1 Too bad, so sad.

It sounds like he's going to need to be even harder with the phone boundaries.

there are so many people who "don't get it".  And they can be quite sanctimonious of "you have to take care of your parents, and that's selfish, etc."  You'll regret it if you don't. - they don't have to live with it - you do.

you've learned what a crock that is. I heard it a lot in regards to my grandmother.  25 years later, the only thing I regret is I didn't ask her more questions about family history while she was alive.  She treated me poorly, and I didn't have to sit there and take it.

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

I've thought about duty in this context a lot. And at the end of the day, my duties to a narcissistic parent who did not take care of me emotionally are not emotional ones. That means that if I could get away with it, I would help by paying, but I would not help with my presence. My mom helped raised me, and that counts for something, materially. But I cannot give back what I already paid back in more than full. 

My mom is a narcissist. She's been divorced 3 times now, because she cannot get along with people she lives with. She's not aware of other people's internal states. She lies in order to get her way. When I started dating DH, she flirted with him and "sympathized" with him about having to deal with such a difficult person as me. When DD7 was a toddler, she pouted and sulked when DD preferred a guest she had over to her and made a serious issue of it. This is just a random list, trying to illustrate the issues. 

The best thing I ever did for our relationship was stop talking to her entirely for a year. It's amazing how much more respectful she got after she realized I had power in the relationship. 

I don't know what I'm going to do when she needs my help -- she had me young, as was standard in the former USSR, so she's not old yet. But I imagine helping out financially, but setting extremely firm boundaries. I can't imagine making myself fully available emotionally. For one thing, the stress would be awful for my other relationships. 

I always like this essay about this issue: 

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/02/abusive-parents-what-do-grown-children-owe-the-mothers-and-fathers-who-made-their-childhood-a-living-hell.html

in most cases (if they are dangerous to your physical safety, all bets are off.) - I think making sure they are in a safe living situation is "being dutiful".  you don't have to be the one personally taking care of them, and you certainly don't have to be an emotional support.  she can get a cat, or a dog.  maybe. or a rat.   

my grandmother liked to "if you don't treat me better, I'll cut you out of my will." this was a frequent manipulative threat.  One day I'd had enough (I wasn't going to hand her a knife so she could stab me in the back with it.), and said "fine, cut me out of your will."   she was speechless.  sometime later, she made the threat again.  I was surprised "I thought you already did".  she was even more quiet.  just one more offense against her and when she started banning me from family events at her house, or on her dime when she'd take them out to a restaurant.  Initially I didn't think much of it, but when she was super uncomfortable when I mentioned it - it became clear it was a deliberate slight and I wasn't supposed to know about it.

 

 

[Harriet Vane]

5 hours ago, Kassia said:

Maybe there is a thread on this already, but I don't know where to look.

DH's parents have been awful to him, me, and our kids for as long as we've been together (35+ years).  They are both very selfish and my MIL is a liar, backstabber, and manipulator.  We live ten minutes from them and they have never been there for us and never done anything to have a relationship with our kids.  They have made my daughter cry and they have done hurtful things to all of us.  One of my sons is the most easygoing person I've ever met, and they even make him mad.  Another son (my sons are adults) doesn't want anything to do with them.

Anyway, a big fear of ours has always been what will happen as they age and need help - especially since we live so close.  We wanted to move to avoid that issue, but needed to wait until our youngest graduated from high school because of her DE opportunities where we live.  She just graduated.  DH had a sister (the favorite child who had the favorite grandchild - they didn't make any effort to hide this) who died from breast cancer so DH is the only child.

Over the years, we have distanced ourselves so we only talk on the phone for birthdays/anniversaries and only see them once a year for Christmas.  This has been wonderful.  

Well, now my FIL is having health issues and has been in and out of the hospital/nursing home.  He and my MIL call DH constantly (during work hours, early Saturday morning, whenever they "need" him).  They demand help and that DH return their calls immediately.  Before this, we NEVER heard from them (unless they needed something, of course).  DH has still been distant with them, but he does help and talk to them regularly now.  The constant phone calls and demands are getting to him, though.  Yesterday, he helped my MIL get gas.  Today, she called crying because she got a letter from Medicare she didn't understand and she wanted him to drop everything and come over.  It's like this all the time.  Yet, when we needed help over the years, we never contacted them - we just didn't have that kind of relationship with them.  

I'm wondering if anyone has been in this situation and how they handled it.  

 

Hi Kassia,

I won't go into great detail. Suffice it to say that I have had to cope with similar dynamics. I can pm with you if you want to chat more about it.

Unhealthy, boundary-less people live on a slippery slope. They don't know any other way to be. They are infinitely needy, and they will take a mile for every inch given. It can be exhausting, especially when you feel you must stay engaged with them to some extent (as we do with the aging or with the mentally ill, etc.).

First, if you planned to move, then move. Follow your dreams. Staying in one place will not make them any happier. Really it won't. Even if you moved in together and waited on them hand and foot, they would not be one iota happier. So move with no guilt at all.

Moving is not abandonment. You can make provisions for their care as needed.

As long as you are in town together (as I assume you will be for the foreseeable future), you will find it helpful to draw up a list of rules just for yourselves on when and how much to help. I loved what Tap said about the half day--giving an evening or a Saturday morning at regular intervals will help. They will have help and they will not take over your entire life.

Make plans for self-care after that half day of help. Be intentional with this--it will save your sanity. In my case, that meant that after interacting with the person or situation, I would listen to certain kinds of music while driving home. Once home, my blessed husband kept the kids and I disappeared to sip tea and read books or mindlessly read blogs on the internet. I just needed to be still and alone and do something brainless. I often cried as I drove home from a specific situation, and then could use the time at home to nourish and recover.

Decide together what circumstances would be an acceptable deviation from the schedule you impose for help. Those circumstances should be genuine emergencies only. The type of thing that would warrant a 911 call.

Don't answer their calls. Call them back on a schedule you and your dh agree upon. It's not blowing them off. It is responding to them on a schedule that allows you peace of mind and sanity. Most times they genuinely do not actually need to talk to you daily.

Look NOW into senior housing arrangements so that you are ready when they fall off a cliff. Too many people try to do this under terrible pressure when the situation becomes dire. Do it now, before it gets dire. Research is your friend. Then when it is time, you have a nice, fat file full of resources.

And most importantly, practice what to do, what to say when they call or when they say what you know they will say. Your dh should seriously practice. Keep the statements down to just a line or two:

"Hi Mom, I got your call the other day. I'll stop by on Saturday to help you."

When she attempts to draw him down into the vortex, he should repeat: "I understand. I'll stop by on Saturday to help you."

And keep repeating.

When the conversation prolongs itself, as it certainly will when they are not getting the immediate action they want or the emotional strokes they are craving, he must cut off the call: "Yep, I understand and I will be there on Saturday. I've got to go now. Bye."

Be oblivious to the subtext and oblivious to the various panicky manipulations and machinations, etc. Stick to the script. Say it with a smile and with a kindly tone--you are firm with the boundary, and your sweetness helps disarm and de-escalate.

It's hard while establishing the routine, but even difficult people can be trained. They will never, ever stop asking or complaining, so there is constant drawing of boundaries. Resist the urge to go into any depth. Just stick to the script--in the long run, it will be less drama.

I hope that's helpful to you. Please do feel free to pm if you want to talk more specifically.

 

[Harriet Vane]

6 hours ago, Kassia said:

 

 

Sorry--not sure why this posted so many times.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Harriet Vane

[Harriet Vane]

6 hours ago, Kassia said:

 

Sorry--not sure why this posted so many times.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Harriet Vane

[Harriet Vane]

Thought of one more important thing:

No big, huge declarations of The New Rules. Just start doing it. Maintain that smile and kindly tone. Soooooo much less drama to simply implement the new system.

[Slache]

10 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

Thought of one more important thing:

No big, huge declarations of The New Rules. Just start doing it. Maintain that smile and kindly tone. Soooooo much less drama to simply implement the new system.

I would take this on case by case basis. If DH calls them every evening I think they deserve to know he won't be calling them until Saturday. A text after her next phone call of "Mom, these weekend calls and trips are taking to much of my time, I'll call you Saturday around 10" would cover it. And end the call "Talk to you next Saturday."