What do you think about not doing a third year of Science?

[...................]

My dd is working very hard but struggles with Science.  She has two LD's and although she is overall high IQ, Science in particular poses quite a challenge.  Just typing / making flashcards for words that she cannot spell takes many hours each week....The fact that she couldn't care less about molecules, moles or mitochondria doesn't help (feeling so clever there!)

She has taken two years of Lab Science, and we have all her labs and records to prove them.  She took Physical Science in 9th and is taking Biology this year.  

I was kind of planning on having her take Chemistry next year but in looking at the private colleges she is aiming for, they only seem to strongly recommend two, or even one year of Lab Science in high school.  Her major will probably be English and she will be getting accommodations in college to help with spelling on exams, as well as time and a half and tape recorders and some other accommodations, and her colleges offer Earth and Space Science as well as Chemistry, Physics and Biology for student to choose from.  

...so she won't be rid of Science just yet. But... She will be starting at community college for dual enrollment next year and I'd rather see her take more classes there, and not worry about Chemistry, but at the same time, I wonder if it'll look very strange to have Chemistry missing from a high school transcript.

She is considering taking Astronomy at the community college but we aren't sure how that would go, as she has issues with Visual Memory and we aren't sure yet if that's just with symbols or also with pictorial things.

[City Mouse]

In my state, three science credits are required for graduation (from public school) but only two lab science credits are required. My DS is currently taking environmental science which counts as science credit, but he finds it very easy. He took physical science and biology for his lab credits. Here it is fairly common for non-science kids to not take chemistry. 

[Farrar]

I would personally really push for a third year if that was my student. I would not push for another lab science (unless she was keen on biology and wanted to do a lab of A&P or Botany or something). I wouldn't have her do chemistry. I think she could try astronomy. She might like it.

[teachermom2834]

I would have a third year but I wouldn’t feel at all bad about it being a light credit. 

[J-rap]

We always followed what was required in our district, assuming they did the research and know what most colleges require in our state.  They require 3 years of science with labs.  It sounds like you've looked into this and only two are required at the schools your dd is interested in.  But, I think that's unusual.  I'd be a little nervous about that.  As others have said, you can always do a lighter science with lab.  You can also do a chemistry that doesn't require so much math.

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

My dd is working very hard but struggles with Science.  She has two LD's and although she is overall high IQ, Science in particular poses quite a challenge.  Just typing / making flashcards for words that she cannot spell takes many hours each week.... 

 

This is the type of thing she could potentially get accomodations for. Does she have a formal dx? She needs that plus a record of accommodations (so you will want to accommodate and document at home, plus request accommodations for DE). 

[...................]

Thanks everyone.  Good points.

The thing that scares me about having her plan to take astronomy is that is at the community college and I don't know if she can handle the class and the info. We actually have the book they use, so we will look at it and decide.  But I wouldn't want her to plan on astronomy and then end up dropping it, because by that time, she will miss her place in the co-op and we have a really good co-op teacher for Chemistry, and it's also "Intro to Chemistry" so it's a bit lighter, as it's not A-G approved, which means it probably is a little less in depth.  

katilac- yes she just received her formal dx and is all hooked up with the accessibility office at the community college.  She also will be presenting her paperwork to her co-op teachers so that we can have a paper trail.  We willl have about 6 teachers sign off on accommodations and then file that through our private umbrella school's paperwork, and then we also have hte IEP now at the community college, so thankfully we are creating a paper trail 🙂

I'll encourage her to take one more year of Science, and look into options.

[EKS]

4 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

Just typing / making flashcards for words that she cannot spell takes many hours each week....

Science is not vocabulary.  Yes, you need to learn at least some of the vocabulary of science in order to converse about it, but as a homeschooled high school student, your daughter should not devote hours each week to vocabulary.  

I would have her do a third science course, but I would make it discussion based.  Pick a topic (or two or four) that you think will serve her well going forward.  Read (aloud, if that works well for you and her), watch documentaries, and discuss.  No flashcards.

[Farrar]

25 minutes ago, EKS said:

Science is not vocabulary.  Yes, you need to learn at least some of the vocabulary of science in order to converse about it, but as a homeschooled high school student, your daughter should not devote hours each week to vocabulary.  

I would have her do a third science course, but I would make it discussion based.  Pick a topic (or two or four) that you think will serve her well going forward.  Read (aloud, if that works well for you and her), watch documentaries, and discuss.  No flashcards.

I agree with the gist of this advice, especially the second part. However, if you've never had a student who struggles with vocabulary recall, then it's hard to understand how much it can hold them back. You can't understand a reading, a video, etc. if you don't understand the words they're saying. For people with good memories, then you can get reminded of that vocabulary before diving back in... but for kids with processing issues and so forth, then it'll be in one ear and out the other, even if it's done minutes before watching or reading. And then they'll be lost. Imagine trying to read about genetics when you cannot remember what recessive, dominant, chromosome, trait, DNA, inherit, heredity, RNA, etc. etc. all mean. It's hard. And then you have to talk about the ideas? What ideas? You just swam through nonsense. People who acquire vocabulary with relative ease cannot understand this easily, I think.

[Storygirl]

I think there should be a third year of science, and you can pick one that is not lab based. Since she will be doing a number of outside classes, I think I would choose something that she could do at home that would be lower stress.

I am not homeschooling high school, but I do have kids with LDs who would have trouble with science vocabulary and who would have trouble making flashcards. As their teacher, I would just make the flashcards for them. My children in school are provided study aids by their teachers, so I would consider that an acceptable accommodation that I would provide them as well.

Also, DD17's teachers sometimes have open notebook tests, where students are allowed to use the notes they have taken during the test. Or will allow students to make their own one-page study guide with formulas, definitions, etc, to use during the test. When I was in high school, my teachers did not allow this, so I would not have thought of it as something that is acceptable. I do think it makes for a less rigorous experience, but for some students, less rigorous is the best way for them to learn.

In our state, colleges want three science credits at minimum, and that is the high school graduation standard. On our homeschool notification form, it does require homeschoolers to provide science each year, so that is technically a higher expected standard than what the public schools have to provide.

I would advise checking your state high school requirements, in addition to what the colleges expect. You don't want your student to be applying to colleges with two sciences on her transcript, when all other applicants have three or four. The college may only require two, but if high schools are requiring three or four, that is what the applicants will have had.

[Lori D.]

Definitely would work hard to get a 3rd credit of Science completed, as 3 credits is very frequently required for college admission -- usually only 2 of the 3 credits need to be lab sciences. If you can do it at home, you can spread it out over 1.5 to 2 years to do it at her pace.

Also, see if there is a science topic that would be of more interest to her:
- Botany / Horticulture
- Environmental Science
- Ecology
- Meteorology (Weather)
- Earth Science

You mentioned Astronomy as dual enrollment... Do be aware that the focus of some intro-level Astronomy courses is very math and physics heavy, so NOT necessarily an easier Science. Be sure to look closely at the course syllabus and required texts.

What about doing Astronomy at home, at your own pace, via Teaching Company: Great Course lecture series, NOVA episodes or other documentaries, and some other resources? Do some night viewings with your local Amateur Astronomy organization, make a field trip to an observatory or planetarium, or try out a few of these astronomy activities. More ideas in these past threads, all of which are linked in POST #2 of "High School Motherlode #2", pinned at the top of the high school board:

Astronomy 
Astronomy Recommendations?
High School Astronomy? 
Can you help me design an Astronomy course?

Edited April 6, 2019 by Lori D.

[Lanny]

15 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

<snip>

She is considering taking Astronomy at the community college but we aren't sure how that would go, as she has issues with Visual Memory and we aren't sure yet if that's just with symbols or also with pictorial things.

 

My DD took the Astronomy course from TTU K12 (formerly TTUISD).  The reason I mention this is that textbook is normally used in Colleges, for non-STEM students.  In fact, the Used textbook I bought for her had been a Rental textbook  at a CC in Iowa. At that time, my DD hadn't taken Physics.

[EKS]

12 hours ago, Farrar said:

I agree with the gist of this advice, especially the second part. However, if you've never had a student who struggles with vocabulary recall, then it's hard to understand how much it can hold them back. You can't understand a reading, a video, etc. if you don't understand the words they're saying. For people with good memories, then you can get reminded of that vocabulary before diving back in... but for kids with processing issues and so forth, then it'll be in one ear and out the other, even if it's done minutes before watching or reading. And then they'll be lost. Imagine trying to read about genetics when you cannot remember what recessive, dominant, chromosome, trait, DNA, inherit, heredity, RNA, etc. etc. all mean. It's hard. And then you have to talk about the ideas? What ideas? You just swam through nonsense. People who acquire vocabulary with relative ease cannot understand this easily, I think.

I didn't say that vocabulary was unimportant.  What I said was that you need at least some of the vocabulary in order to converse about science--which seems to be what you are saying here.  My understanding from the OP is that spelling was the biggest problem, not vocabulary recall.  

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

I didn't say that vocabulary was unimportant.  What I said was that you need at least some of the vocabulary in order to converse about science--which seems to be what you are saying here.  My understanding from the OP is that spelling was the biggest problem, not vocabulary recall.  

My impression from this and other things Calming Teas has said is that spelling is what makes it harder for her to make cards and take tests with the words (which is why I would make the cards for her and push for her to have assistive technology and/or not be judged by spelling on tests since she has a documented disability - as someone else pointed out). I just think it's all very well and good to say it's not about vocabulary - but it actually is for a student who doesn't have enough to engage fully with the subject. 

[EKS]

20 minutes ago, Farrar said:

My impression from this and other things Calming Teas has said is that spelling is what makes it harder for her to make cards and take tests with the words (which is why I would make the cards for her and push for her to have assistive technology and/or not be judged by spelling on tests since she has a documented disability - as someone else pointed out). I just think it's all very well and good to say it's not about vocabulary - but it actually is for a student who doesn't have enough to engage fully with the subject. 

Ok, I'll have to defer to you on this, as I can't keep everyone's backstory straight.   

[Hilltopmom]

I’d try to get her through a lite high school Environmental Science course. Relevant to everyone life & important as a citizen, more so than chemistry 🙂

Holt has a textbook for it that’s not too difficult (I’m eyeing it for my LD kiddo next year). AGS also makes one but it’s out of print but is an adapted textbook with a lower reading level than Holt. It’s meaty enough for high school though.

I’ve seen them both used on amazon.

Good luck!

Edited April 6, 2019 by Hilltopmom

[Homemama2]

2 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

I’d try to get her through a lite high school Environmental Science course. Relevant to everyone life & important as a citizen, more so than chemistry 🙂

Holt has a textbook for it that’s not too difficult (I’m eyeing it for my LD kiddo next year). AGS also makes one but it’s out of print but is an adapted textbook with a lower reading level than Holt. It’s meaty enough for high school though.

I’ve seen them both used on amazon.

Good luck!

I agree that Environmental might be a good fit, if you wanted a third science. We are using Holt's Environmental science as our 3rd year of science this year for my oldest (who sounds very similar to your dd, except we haven't done any testing).  It's been a good course.  We bought it new from Rainbow and it had an online code that included worksheets, quizzes, tests, labs if desired (none required), and some interactive things. 

[SanDiegoMom]

38 minutes ago, DiannaKennedy said:

Following along with interest in this thread. 

Would psychology fall under sciences for high school? Or is it considered a humanity? 

Is there a particular field of science that holds her interest? 

Psychology is considered social science, so would not fall into the same category. Now my dd did psychology instead of a fourth science in HS, but it went into the social studies group. 

[Pistachio mom]

I would recommend doing a third high school science. Many college admissions lists include 3 sciences. A few possibilities (on the lighter side) might be:

Nutritional Science (I am using Nutrition 101: Choose Life in conjunction with the Human Anatomy videos from Dr. David Menton (Body of Evidence) (I wrote my own tests). Our labs are cooking, mixing makeup and skin care products, and home remedies related to caring for sick people). It is a mix of health and science.

https://www.amazon.com/Nutrition-101-Choose-Family-Program/dp/0981695426

https://www.christianbook.com/body-of-evidence-8/pd/301370

the 101 series DVDs: I have the Physics and Chemistry. These are more of an introduction to the concepts, you have plenty of time left in the school year to add appropriate research topics that are practical for your student)  It is light, not meant to be used totally alone.

https://the101series.com/

Masters books has a history of science series. I have the World of Mathematics and The World of Physics. The teacher guides are great for structure and quizzes and tests ready to go.

https://www.masterbooks.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=history+of+science

Archaeology or Geology

Also, reading biographies of specific scientists could be pieced into a course.

Any basic foundation you give will help her comprehend college classes better. Good luck as you research!

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Pistachio mom

[elegantlion]

On 4/6/2019 at 1:36 AM, Lori D. said:

You mentioned Astronomy as dual enrollment... Do be aware that the focus of some intro-level Astronomy courses is very math and physics heavy, so NOT necessarily an easier Science. Be sure to look closely at the course syllabus and required texts.

What about doing Astronomy at home, at your own pace, via Teaching Company: Great Course lecture series, NOVA episodes or other documentaries, and some other resources? Do some night viewings with your local Amateur Astronomy organization, make a field trip to an observatory or planetarium, or try out a few of these astronomy activities. More ideas in these past threads, all of which are linked in POST #2 of "High School Motherlode #2", pinned at the top of the high school board:

Astronomy 
Astronomy Recommendations?
High School Astronomy? 
Can you help me design an Astronomy course?

I'm going to second the bolded. Look at the professor who teaches it, are they an astronomer or an astrophysicist? My astronomy course was taught by the latter and while a great guy, it was really math and physics heavy. 

I also agree about doing something at home. Earth Science or Astronomy could be done lighter at home. 

 

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

Psychology is considered social science, so would not fall into the same category. Now my dd did psychology instead of a fourth science in HS, but it went into the social studies group. 

 

3 hours ago, DiannaKennedy said:

Got it. I took a year of psych/soc in High School, but it was in addition to other science classes. 

Yes, the Social Sciences (versus the "Natural Sciences" of Biology, Chemistry, Physics, etc.) are things like:
- History
- Geography
- Government
- Economics
- Political Science
- Psychology
- Philosophy
- Religious Studies
- Sociology
- Anthropology
- Archaeology
- Gender/Ethnic Studies

Edited April 7, 2019 by Lori D.

[Garga]

Here's what I did for an Astronomy elective for my 9th grader if you want to do Astronomy at home and not chance that the CC will be too mathy or difficult.  Scroll down to see the labs/activities.

Videos:
The Great Courses: Understanding the Universe (this was our "spine" with 96 half-hour lectures).  The professor is a well-known person in astronomy and this course is solid.  This one is currently full price at $680, so you'll want to wait for it to go on sale.
The Great Courses:  Our Night Sky.  This was a course about what you see outside at night.  There are 12 half-hour lectures.  This one is on sale right now for $24.95.
Khan academy:  https://www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/cosmology-and-astronomy.  I kept this link, but we ran out of time in our class to use it.  I estimated it has about 8 hours worth of content, but it's really hard to tell with Khan how long something is.  

For output, I would have my son answer questions for the "Understanding the Universe" course.  At the beginning of the year, his answers were simplistic.  By the end, his answers were pretty complex, so he was learning.  I would make my son answer all the questions, but I realize now that I was over-zealous.  If I was running the class now, I wouldn't have him answer *every* question.

For fun, I created a calendar page and he would go outside and draw what the moon looked like for a month until all the phases had been drawn.

Books:

"The Stars" H.A. Rey.  This is the man who wrote the Curious George books, but this isn't necessarily a child's book.  When I was researching this years ago, I saw that it was used at colleges, though it is written very simply and children could learn from it.  We used it for fun to round things out in the class. 
"Death by Black Hole" Neil deGrasse Tyson.  This was a collection of articles, so sometimes there would be repetition from article to article.  
"Rocket Boys" Homer Hickam.  This is an autobiography by a famous guy who works at NASA.  🙂  The book reads like a novel.  Very engrossing.  It was turned into a movie called "October Sky."  We watched the movie after reading the book.

I considered getting the text book written by the author of the "Understanding the Universe" Great Course that we used as a spine, but felt it would be too much for my student.

Meetings:

We joined the local astronomy club and attended monthly meetings.

Labs/Activities:  (Note:  I have just cut and pasted here from my notes.  So, there are a few personal notes interspersed below.  They might be helpful though, so I'm leaving them in.)

1*Phases of the moon (here's a video showing how we could do it.  Another one suggests doing it outside when the moon is visible in the daytime.)
In room with lamp one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz01pTvuMa0
Daytime one: http://astrosociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/DaytimeMoon.pdf
Phases of the moon: how you can see a new moon at night.  https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/nasa/measuringuniverse/spacemath1/p/animate-phases-of-the-moon

2*If the entire hx of the universe was represented as a calendar, then when did certain events occur: http://www.astrosociety.org/edu/astro/act2/H2_Cosmic_Calendar.pdf

3*Remember the egg.  Teaches the eye to look for variations on smooth white surfaces.  http://www.astrosociety.org/education/remember-the-egg/

4*Light pollution (will look at the same constellation at different places to see if they can see more of the stars when it's darker. http://www.astrosociety.org/edu/publications/tnl/44/lightpoll4.html#4

?*Maybe: chart how a star's magnitude gets brighter and dimmer over a month of time. http://www.astrosociety.org/edu/publications/tnl/32/starscience3.html

5*High school level crater demonstrations. Need a bunch of supplies--may be difficult to find.
http://www.astrosociety.org/edu/publications/tnl/23/crater2.html

ENDED UP using flour and hot chocolate mix, marbles, and three other balls (ping pong, rubber, golf) without a slingshot.  Just dropped the balls into the flour filled pan and made the observations.  The supplies in the above link were a headache to find.

6*How high is space?  Calculate and make a drawing to actual scale.
http://www.astrosociety.org/edu/activities/I11_How_High_Space.pdf

7*Show a scale of how big the planets are AND how far the planets are from each other---we found a big parkinglot and drew the planets large in chalk to scale and then we walked the length of our street, stopping at intervals where the planets would be apart from each other to scale.  Pluto was in the field at the opposite end of the street.
*Show a scale of how far the planets are from each other, bigger.  Will take 1.6 miles of length: (LARGE)
http://www.exploratorium.edu/ronh/solar_system/index.html

Amazon link to feet measuring wheel so know how far to walk between planets.  https://www.amazon.com/1000FT-Walking-Counter-Survey-Measuring/dp/B004L181E6/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

FOR THE ABOVE:  we did the Large version.  First we went to an empty parking lot and drew a sun in chalk on the ground that was 10 foot in diameter and then filled in the planets to scale (they were tiny) inside our chalk drawing of the sun.  Next, we started at the top of our street and drew a sun that was only 5 inches across and walked about 1/4 mile, plotting how far the planets would be from the sun, to scale.  This was a favorite.  Especially when we got to the end of our 1/4 mile and I said, "Wanna keep walking to the nearest star?"  The boys said, "Yes!" and I said, "Then we'll be walking to Mom-Mom's house.  The one who lives in Arizona--2500 miles away!"  

If you want to keep the scale smaller, then these are smaller options:
Using 1 meter of paper. (SMALL)
http://astrosociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/PocketSolarSystem.pdf

*Show a scale of how far the planets are from each other using a 200 sheet roll of TP  (MEDIUM)
http://www.astrosociety.org/edu/family/materials/toiletpaper.pdf

8*See sunspots.  Use tracing paper to see how they change over a period of time.
http://astrosociety.org/edu/publications/tnl/05/stars2.html

9*Make a pan cookie using chocolate chips to create constellations from a template of actual constellations.
http://www.astrosociety.org/edu/family/materials/constellationcookies.pdf

10*Build our own spectroscope
http://www.livescience.com/41548-spectroscopy-science-fair-project.html

NOTE:  This one was a flop for us.  Update: No it wasn"t!  When we looked at a premade spectroscope, ours was fine.  !  We just didn't know what we were looking at. It's very subtle.

11*Make another astrolabe (or find in the bin downstairs.)
http://cse.ssl.berkeley.edu/AtHomeAstronomy/activity_07.html

Edited April 8, 2019 by Garga

[birchbark]

We skipped Chemistry. My DS did Biology, Physical (included a touch of Chemistry), Earth/Meteorology at home and then Physics at the CC.

I would look into a more practical science for her: Earth/Environmental, Meteorology, Heath/Nutrition, Astronomy, Animal Husbandry/Genetics, etc.