how do you.... npd ?

[gardenmom5]

how do you overcome the gaslighting that your perception of reality is warped and distorted?   how do you overcome the reluctance to believe "it really was that bad".  Part of me knows it was - but my mind is fighting.

I can go down the list, I can say what went on.  but part of my mind wants to fight me, and say "you're making a mt. out of a molehill."  (also typical of those who survived narcissistic abuse.)

I need a sanity check - and how do I accept self-validation of my perception of reality?

 

and one of the psychs I've been listening too, commented - they know what they're doing is wrong.  that's why they gaslight and project.

 

I didn't get to see my therapist last week because I am sick. I seriously doubt it will happen this week due to the snow.  and next week I'm supposed to be in texas (so sea-tac had better be open!!!)

Edited February 11, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Carrie12345]

(((Hugs)))

Are you required to be in any situations that necessitate protecting yourself between now and then? Is there a reason you feel you need to reach acceptance before getting back to your therapist? If not, perhaps trying to force that breakthrough doesn’t need to be your goal right now.  

We had an NPD event leak into our lives in the most unexpected way last night. The content was deeply disturbing, but there was little more for us to do than acknowledge it was disturbing and do our best to “shut the door”, so to speak. Dwelling on the content would absolutely distract us from the fact that the action itself was as NPD as one can get, and losing sight of that would draw us back into the game that 3 NPDs are playing with each other and trying to play with us.

It’s very hard not to play “But...” And that’s what they count on.

(((More hugs)))

[Rosie_0801]

7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

how do you overcome the gaslighting that your perception of reality is warped and distorted?   how do you overcome the reluctance to believe "it really was that bad".  Part of me knows it was - but my mind is fighting.

 

To some extent, you don't. 
Not that I've done a scientific study or anything, but I'm inclined to think you'll swing back and forth between those two points like a pendulum for a very long time. Maybe forever? I don't know. I haven't got to forever yet. 🙂

I think it's a coping mechanism. Sometimes, to cope, we need to validate how bad it was. Sometimes, to cope, we need to minimise. You can learn to use it, to induce the one you need.

[EMS83]

::hugs::

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

(((Hugs)))

Are you required to be in any situations that necessitate protecting yourself between now and then? Is there a reason you feel you need to reach acceptance before getting back to your therapist? If not, perhaps trying to force that breakthrough doesn’t need to be your goal right now.   

no.  it's the "normal".. everyday situations can trigger the not knowing what is normal.  where I dont' know what is up or down.  those have led to panic attacks in the past.

3 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

To some extent, you don't. 
Not that I've done a scientific study or anything, but I'm inclined to think you'll swing back and forth between those two points like a pendulum for a very long time. Maybe forever? I don't know. I haven't got to forever yet. 🙂

I think it's a coping mechanism. Sometimes, to cope, we need to validate how bad it was. Sometimes, to cope, we need to minimise. You can learn to use it, to induce the one you need.

yes.  there is the need to validate how bad it was.  and everyone else in the family telling you it wasn't.  (though after repeatedly telling my mother for 25 years to wake up and see reality, she started too.  she had started to share her own experiences.)

2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Always 'consider the source'.  The NPD is mentally ill, you aren't. Whatever they are trying to get you to beleive is a con job, and you must reject the con.

Don't put any energy into deciding if its a mountain or a molehill...its mental illness and you only have a glimpse. No need to spend any more time on it. You have better things to do with your life than whac-a-mole and deciding how high up the mole managed to get.  So, do not engage. Distract, divert, do what you really want to do with your life.  Your time is valuable. 

my covert narcissist (that's what fits her.) has been dead for 25 years.

I've been listening to youtube videos by psychologists, looking for - how to heal.

Joanna Kujath (very good) - said "stop researching narcissism 24/7".  made me laugh.

dr. les carter (surviving narcissism) is also very good.

18 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

That's the million dollar question.

When I first realized what NPD was and the possibility that all the "stuff" I endured was actually a form of abuse, I sat down one day and made a list. It was very late in life for me, and I felt sloooooooow (and therefore, stupid) in coming to my senses. It was just a short description that would jog my memory of that particular situation. As I kept remembering things, I soon had a few pages. Then I just skimmed over it all, letting it sink in that "these are the types of things she did/does to me and others". Having things there visually on a page and being able to see these all collectively made it really powerful and easier for me to see clearly. Without this list, things could go smoothly for awhile and I would start to forget, let my guard down, and get hurt. Sometimes I would feel so guilty for making a list like this with things that had been done to hurt me. I would get ready to throw it in the trash, but then I'd read it again and I'd get back to the reality that, yes, it was that bad. So I need this list to keep reminding me but not to make me stay angry, hate, or resent. It just helps me to know that all the time I spent crying and feeling in such despair wasn't because I was an overly sensitive baby who overreacted to everything, but instead I was crying and feeling in despair because I hadn't been imagining these things and they were truly awful and hurtful. And any sane person would feel the same way.

Some may say it's unhealthy to dwell like that, but when you've been a daughter of someone and had these things done to you, you absolutely need to make sense of it. The list doesn't give validation from the outside, but it makes it easier to see how crazy it all is/was. I guess it's self-validation. It is a powerful way to see that your perception of reality isn't warped or distorted. It takes away my feeling of guilt when I need to build mental boundaries and let the dynamics of our relationship be a little different and more under my control, even if it's unbeknownst to the other person. It's a constant reminder of why I feel the way I do, and why I SHOULD feel the way I do. And the only way to get by it is to go straight through.

But it's great that you are getting outside validation from therapy. I know your grandmother is no longer with you, but I think these things all still apply.

I've had a hard weekend because of disturbing (and triggering) things that were said in conversation. Not hurtful to ME (well, part of it was), but just ....some upsetting comments. It's my fault for starting a conversation that went a little deeper than it should have. I need to shake this, but these feelings seem to have a mind of their own and will go away when they've ran their course. It's just time to ride them like a wave and be strong until they pass. 

This may not be helpful to you, but it really worked for me.

 

as I have been doing research on the effects of narcissistic abuse - things I have struggled with, that I thought were "just me"... I learned are typical of those who survive narcissistic abuse.  and emotional neglect. (my mother was emotionally absent.)

the therapy is great because it's emdr - which helps to pull the emotion out of the primitive brain/amygdala.   the theory is that we process emotions during rem sleep.  I almost only ever had nightmares growing up.  but the emdr uses eye movement (the "EM").  it's really weird the way it calms.  I've had two areas it has pulled out all negative emotion.

many of them do give techniques on how to deal with them if you must have contact.  so, I can - again - see why things I was doing was pissing her off. and she punished me for it.  I was stepping out of her orbit, without even realizing it at the time.

 

 

thank you everyone.  I appreciate the hugs. as I was going through, and writing things out -  I remembered three experiences. I need to focus on them whenever I question my perception of reality.  yeah.. it was that bad.  I believe God is the one who first used the word "enemy" to describe her with a scripture flying off the page at me while prayerfully trying to figure out what to do during her lifetime.  then simple instructions on specific boundaries to enact with her - when I didn't even know boundaries existed. (narcissists dont' allow boundaries. they prevent them from doing what they want.) and one more, that was even stronger.

so thank you.

[gardenmom5]

my last emdr session really got into some very strong emotion.  it was a very rough session, and there is a point of "plan on being unproductive" for a period after a session.

I was screaming and sobbing in my car as I drove home.  I know that is an area that will take at least another session - and here I've had things outside my/my therapist control, delaying it.  (ok, it's my choice to go play with my grandson) one week due to me being sick is one thing, but it's going to be another two weeks (missing three total) before we can get back to it.

I had already "processed" two areas to where there was no negative emotion left (including my father's death) - so I know it works for me.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

When you start getting to thinking ‘consider the source’ without anger, just with detachment, you know you have arrived.

That is a really good feeling.

Some folks need a period of cut off ness to get there.

Some need more of a distance but not a complete cut off.

Some tools that are helpful during a distance are asking yourself, what would a normal person do in this circumstance?  And then doing that even if it doesn’t fit ‘the pattern’.  It is fruitless and indeed counterproductive to try to get the other person to act like a normal human being, and not worth your energy.

Another good tool is lifting your mind off the subject of that person onto something nice, like a gorgeous view you saw once or someone that you love.  This situation does not deserve the inordinate amount of mental energy that you are undoubtedly putting into it.  

Another tool is delayed reacting.  It is valid to call back instead of answering the phone, if you are not sure how you are going to react in the moment.  

Another tool is a strong moral/courteous stance, so that you always can take satisfaction in being polite and good even if the other person is not.

Hugs to you.  It’s really hard.  I found the ‘dance’ books pretty helpful—they are not geared toward NPD specifically, but are geared toward gentle countermoves that fit my ‘best self’ better than fury or a complete cut off do.  “The Dance of Anger” is a good one to start with.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Always 'consider the source'.  The NPD is mentally ill, you aren't.  

 

20 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

All I can say is that there a came a time when I realized the NPD people were mentally ill.   

 

this attitude has always really really bothered me.  now I know why.

while recently listening to several different therapists talking about gaslighting - and pointing out:  these people KNOW what they are doing is WRONG.  otherwise, they wouldn't gaslight you to convince you your perceptions are wrong.

[gardenmom5]

22 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

A bunch of us were together in a line ordering food one at a time in a place where you go down the line and tell the employee what you want as you move down. As I was telling the server what I wanted at the beginning of the line, mom interrupted him to talk to try to carry on a conversation with me. I answered and went back to my order. As I was going down the line, I was making a mental observation that she often did this, and I was beginning to wonder if it was somehow on purpose. As she finished her order at the end and moved away, I began talking to the server to say what I wanted to finish my order. She turned and walked back to me as I was right in the middle of talking to the server and interrupted again. Because of my mental note-taking just seconds before, I had the presence of mind to not even look toward her. I just put my hand up (it wasn't mean...just a "wait a sec" kind of thing). I kept eye contact with the server and continued. She stopped mid-sentence and kind of looked a little shocked. At this point I was inwardly a little annoyed by this, but I didn't let it show. As I walked away, she finished saying whatever she had been saying.

This wasn't an example of the hurtful behavior she is capable of, but it made me wonder.....is this on purpose? I had to ask myself. It's like she wanted to break the connection of a conversation I was having with another person, and it (as I said) wasn't the first time, but I just then had a light bulb moment that this often happened.

But then what about the other more hurtful things? On purpose? Is she aware? It's so strange because she can "see" and point out what other people do to hurt others in the family. I've always thought that she couldn't "see" what she is doing to me. But she has to know. There is just no way this can't be. If you look at my list, you'd see there is just no way a person can do these things and not know they are doing them. Is she trying to be in control of me? Does she want control of my mind or does she want to distort my perceptions? I really don't know. All I know is that there is a really dark part of her and she directs a lot of that toward me in a very subtle way. 

 

I really liked Joanna kujath's "how to talk to a narcissist".  what you describe is TYPICAL.   it is about control.  so yes, it is on purpose. you sent her the message you were conducting your business and then you would talk to her.  you made her wait.  so yeah, she'd be shocked.

people think of narcissism as grandiose - but covert narcissists aren't.  they are also known as the "shy" narcissist, and they can be incredibly subtle.

I pointed out to my brother to think back to how our grandfather was never allowed to speak if our grandmother was in the room.  if he ever started speaking - she would immediately cut him off.  every time.  he would then clench his jaw, and turn his head.

 

eta: there are some others I found very helpful as well.

Edited February 11, 2019 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

Just now, HeighHo said:

I don't know about yours IndigoBlue, but mine are aware. They are watching for reaction and hoping I'll react in response as intended. 

I 

and that smirk when they get the response they were trying to get....  they want the reaction, they have to know what they're doing.  

I got rid of my grandparents 50th anniversary picture - because it was THAT smile...

[Ravin]

42 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

A bunch of us were together in a line ordering food one at a time in a place where you go down the line and tell the employee what you want as you move down. As I was telling the server what I wanted at the beginning of the line, mom interrupted him to talk to try to carry on a conversation with me. I answered and went back to my order. As I was going down the line, I was making a mental observation that she often did this, and I was beginning to wonder if it was somehow on purpose. As she finished her order at the end and moved away, I began talking to the server to say what I wanted to finish my order. She turned and walked back to me as I was right in the middle of talking to the server and interrupted again. Because of my mental note-taking just seconds before, I had the presence of mind to not even look toward her. I just put my hand up (it wasn't mean...just a "wait a sec" kind of thing). I kept eye contact with the server and continued. She stopped mid-sentence and kind of looked a little shocked. At this point I was inwardly a little annoyed by this, but I didn't let it show. As I walked away, she finished saying whatever she had been saying.

This wasn't an example of the hurtful behavior she is capable of, but it made me wonder.....is this on purpose? I had to ask myself. It's like she wanted to break the connection of a conversation I was having with another person, and it (as I said) wasn't the first time, but I just then had a light bulb moment that this often happened.

But then what about the other more hurtful things? On purpose? Is she aware? It's so strange because she can "see" and point out what other people do to hurt others in the family. I've always thought that she couldn't "see" what she is doing to me. But she has to know. There is just no way this can't be. If you look at my list, you'd see there is just no way a person can do these things and not know they are doing them. Is she trying to be in control of me? Does she want control of my mind or does she want to distort my perceptions? I really don't know. All I know is that there is a really dark part of her and she directs a lot of that toward me in a very subtle way. 

 

My understanding of how NPD works is that there is a lack of self-awareness of why they are doing what they are doing. That is, they try and manipulate people into the place they have assigned in their orbit, but often are not conscious that that is what they are doing. 

[gardenmom5]

31 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Example of that "look/smirk". Recently, mom fibbed to me about the price she'd paid for something. I didn't ask how much it cost.  (No reason for this! I've never made her feel she can't do what she wants with her money.) She also purposefully didn't tell me my niece was with her when she bought it. (She has been doing things lately to entice me to be envious of my niece. I'm not. I never have been. I love my niece and am proud of her impressive accomplishments. However, since I'm getting a weird vibe from mom, I just ignore it. Mom probably perceives my ignoring her attempts as jealousy on my part. It's weird, but it's true. So with her perception of my envy and my "ignoring" this whole thing and being distant about it, she has backed off and has even gone out of her way to "hide" it from me that they had gone shopping together or something. ) Niece was there when I was visiting one day and they were bickering about the amount of money she'd paid for the object. Niece blurted out that she'd paid x amount of money for that thing, not the amount mom had said she'd paid. Then niece said actually, you spent $$$$$ that day on everything! So, mom now knew that 1) I know knew she'd paid a lot of money for the thing and spent lots of money that day which, for some reason, niece can know and I can't and 2) That I knew she'd been with niece that day. In her mind, her cover was blown. She walked out of the room with that "smirk" on her face.

In reality, I didn't care about any of this.

yeah. sorry to their "defenders" - they know what the heck they're doing.  if you don't respond the way they want, they'll keep bringing it up until you do.  and the satisfaction when they know they hurt you...

my grandmother used the promise of inheritance to control (one typical tactic).  my sister fell for it.  (i like my self-respect thank you very much).  so my mother appeased her by giving her a very large sum of money.  but my mother had to constantly tell me until she got a reaction from me.  It felt very demeaning, and I nearly severed the relationship as a final straw.  it's her money - but the shoving it in my face over and over and over - that's just malicious.   but fits into the history of how my foo relates to money.  it's a tool for manipulation.

[caedmyn]

15 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

how do you overcome the gaslighting that your perception of reality is warped and distorted?   how do you overcome the reluctance to believe "it really was that bad".  Part of me knows it was - but my mind is fighting.

I can go down the list, I can say what went on.  but part of my mind wants to fight me, and say "you're making a mt. out of a molehill."  (also typical of those who survived narcissistic abuse.)

I need a sanity check - and how do I accept self-validation of my perception of reality?

Sometimes it can be helpful to think about what you would tell someone else if they were telling you those things happened to them.  Sometimes it's easier to think about things objectively if you're looking at them as if on the outside looking in, instead of from the perspective of being in the middle of it.  I hope that makes sense.

[J-rap]

I wonder if it would be helpful to try and look at it as though "you" are actually a different person.  For example, pretend it's your adult child who experienced it.  Or a good friend.  Or for that matter, even a stranger.  I think it's easier to look at things more objectively when I try and look at things from a third person point of view.

[Rosie_0801]

6 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I was screaming and sobbing in my car as I drove home.  

 

Eh. Don't do that! Go and park somewhere!

[LMD]

I honestly don't know. The 'it wasn't so bad' is a very strong beast.

Coincidentally, I mentioned something about my childhood to dh yesterday (a child lashing out symptom of the crazy) and his reaction to it - what I thought was a funny story - was fairly extreme. I'm reminded again how far outside of normal it all was... 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, caedmyn said:

Sometimes it can be helpful to think about what you would tell someone else if they were telling you those things happened to them.  Sometimes it's easier to think about things objectively if you're looking at them as if on the outside looking in, instead of from the perspective of being in the middle of it.  I hope that makes sense.

dsil and his brother did that one day.  I don't remember the exact details, but it was medical.  dsil told his brother - what would you do if someone came to you with those symptoms?  'give them an antibiotic".  -ok, so go get one.

45 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Eh. Don't do that! Go and park somewhere!

i was looking, I managed to pull it together so I could drive.

11 minutes ago, LMD said:

I honestly don't know. The 'it wasn't so bad' is a very strong beast.

Coincidentally, I mentioned something about my childhood to dh yesterday (a child lashing out symptom of the crazy) and his reaction to it - what I thought was a funny story - was fairly extreme. I'm reminded again how far outside of normal it all was... 

one day I shared a fairly minor eye-roll worthy anecdote of my grandmother (might have been one of her mottos.  e.g. what ever you say will be used against you.)  with a friend who is also a marriage and family therapist.  he started sputtering "but that's abuse....." well, uh, yeah.

[gardenmom5]

43 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

yes, unfortunately 'punish with silence' doesn't last long enough.  they turn on the charm and approach again when they want something.  the very best thing for me was to go vacation on another continent..so freeing. The NPD relatives can't pull up in the driveway, they can't insert themselves into the marriage, and the phone won't be ringing to interrupt.

 

that was my thought.  they must have their audience.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

17 hours ago, LMD said:

I honestly don't know. The 'it wasn't so bad' is a very strong beast.

Coincidentally, I mentioned something about my childhood to dh yesterday (a child lashing out symptom of the crazy) and his reaction to it - what I thought was a funny story - was fairly extreme. I'm reminded again how far outside of normal it all was... 

I have similar experiences with my DH.

[Shoeless]

How do I overcome the gaslighting? 

a) I have a list of what I call "wtf moments".  These are moments I have described to other people who invariably stare at me with wide eyes and say things like "WHY do you still talk to this person!?"

b) I think about what my reaction would be if any of these things happened to my child.  That usually brings things into sharp focus for me.  

[Shoeless]

On 2/11/2019 at 12:28 PM, Ravin said:

 

My understanding of how NPD works is that there is a lack of self-awareness of why they are doing what they are doing. That is, they try and manipulate people into the place they have assigned in their orbit, but often are not conscious that that is what they are doing. 

 

This is how it is with one of my narcissistic relatives.  I can't say if they actually have NPD, (it is beyond my paygrade to diagnose!).  They are profoundly self-absorbed to the point where I can't honestly tell if they recognize that I am a full, separate person.  I sort of exist as a doll or a concept in their world. 

My narcissistic parent lacks self-awareness.  All of their actions are with the goal of stopping themselves from feeling bad, insecure, lonely, worried.  I do not have any evidence of them thinking "How would this action impact those around me?" or "I can see why so-and-so felt insulted or hurt when I said/did XYZ".  They are extremely focused on how others perceive them and need boatloads of external validation to feel ok enough to get through the week.  If someone feels upset as a result of my dad's actions or words, he will either insist it's not a big deal or claims he has no recollection of the event.  To my dad, words are meaningless.  You can say whatever you want, whenever you want if your feelings justify the words.  So when my former step-mother threatened me and my kid?  Dad didn't see it as a big deal, because "She didn't mean it.  You can't take her words seriously.  She was just mad".  Well, what *did* she mean by it, dad? Why say that if you don't mean it? You would have thought I'd asked him why water was wet.  The question baffled him because in his mind it's a given that words are meaningless mouth-noises and that if I was upset by what his wife did (and what he did by defending her), then I was consciously choosing to be disagreeable and make life hard for him. 

It took me a shamefully long time to understand that you can't say snotty things about someone just because you feel mad at them, and still expect the other person to stay in your life.  Thanks, dad, for that life lesson!         

My dad absolutely has assigned everyone a role and gets really frustrated when one of us goes off script.  He'll spend a lot of energy trying to wheedle and cajole his kids back into our assigned roles and gets upset when one of us (usually me) refuses to cooperate. 

However, if you told him this is what he's doing, he'd be genuinely baffled and confused.  He has no self-awareness.  If you told him that manipulating his kids into doing what he wanted was not normal, he'd argue that he's not manipulating you at all because this is how normal people relate to each other, and manipulation is an abnormal thing.  He thinks it's normal and that I'm consciously choosing to be disagreeable and difficult when I enforce boundaries. Since he believes he's normal and understands that manipulation is abnormal, he can't possibly be manipulative, because you see, he's normal which means none of this is happening.  He never stops to think "Is there any truth to what is being said? Could my words and actions be perceived as manipulative?".  That would require self-awareness and the willingness to admit he's flawed.  He can't admit that, because it would destroy the little self-worth he has.  In his mind, a character flaw is like death. 

I do believe there are narcissistic people that enjoy causing strife and anguish for others.  They likely have a sociopathic streak in addition to their narcissistic tendencies.  But for my dad, his motivation isn't to watch someone struggle and be uncomfortable.  It's just that his self-esteem is so very low that he can't see any way of building it up without taking part of someone else's joy for himself.     

 

Also, thank you for letting me brain-dump on your threads, @gardenmom5 .  I feel like I jabber on too much sometimes!  You inspire a lot of introspection in me and it's helped put some things in order in my mind.    

Edited February 12, 2019 by MissLemon

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, MissLemon said:

 

 To my dad, words are meaningless.  You can say whatever you want, whenever you want if your feelings justify the words.  So when my former step-mother threatened me and my kid?  Dad didn't see it as a big deal, because "She didn't mean it.  You can't take her words seriously.  She was just mad".  Well, what *did* she mean by it, dad? Why say that if you don't mean it? You would have thought I'd asked him why water was wet.  The question baffled him because in his mind it's a given that words are meaningless mouth-noises and that if I was upset by what his wife did (and what he did by defending her), then I was consciously choosing to be disagreeable and make life hard for him. 

 

that's also what the narcissists victim will say.  pavlov's dog. 

my mother would always say my grandmother loved me.  I was a teen when I started to push back - this. is. not. love. it was decades before I broke through my mother's training and she could start to say something as disloyal as "she felt relief when grandmother died."

[Shoeless]

25 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

that's also what the narcissists victim will say.  pavlov's dog. 

my mother would always say my grandmother loved me.  I was a teen when I started to push back - this. is. not. love. it was decades before I broke through my mother's training and she could start to say something as disloyal as "she felt relief when grandmother died."

 

I absolutely felt relief when my 1st step-mother died. And I will feel relief when my mother dies. My dad likes narcissistic women. When I was a teen and asking "Why do these women act terrible towards me?", Dad kept saying "They love you in their own way".  Well, no, I don't think they do.  In the case of my 1st stepmother, she even said so in her journal to be read after she died! I can laugh about that now, but it wasn't funny at the time.  Who does that?!  As your final act toward someone, instead of responding with generosity or kindness, you say "Actually, I don't love you, but that's perfectly normal and I'm sure you understand why".  Like, you could just...say nothing instead.  Or if you felt compelled to say something, you could say "Our relationship was difficult, but I wish you well in life".  But instead you choose "I didn't love you".  Ok, you mean old cow!  Who does that?! lol!

Edited February 12, 2019 by MissLemon

[YaelAldrich]

3 hours ago, MissLemon said:

 

This is how it is with one of my narcissistic relatives.  I can't say if they actually have NPD, (it is beyond my paygrade to diagnose!).  They are profoundly self-absorbed to the point where I can't honestly tell if they recognize that I am a full, separate person.  I sort of exist as a doll or a concept in their world. 

My narcissistic parent lacks self-awareness.  All of their actions are with the goal of stopping themselves from feeling bad, insecure, lonely, worried.  I do not have any evidence of them thinking "How would this action impact those around me?" or "I can see why so-and-so felt insulted or hurt when I said/did XYZ".  They are extremely focused on how others perceive them and need boatloads of external validation to feel ok enough to get through the week.  If someone feels upset as a result of my dad's actions or words, he will either insist it's not a big deal or claims he has no recollection of the event.  To my dad, words are meaningless.  You can say whatever you want, whenever you want if your feelings justify the words.  So when my former step-mother threatened me and my kid?  Dad didn't see it as a big deal, because "She didn't mean it.  You can't take her words seriously.  She was just mad".  Well, what *did* she mean by it, dad? Why say that if you don't mean it? You would have thought I'd asked him why water was wet.  The question baffled him because in his mind it's a given that words are meaningless mouth-noises and that if I was upset by what his wife did (and what he did by defending her), then I was consciously choosing to be disagreeable and make life hard for him. 

It took me a shamefully long time to understand that you can't say snotty things about someone just because you feel mad at them, and still expect the other person to stay in your life.  Thanks, dad, for that life lesson!         

My dad absolutely has assigned everyone a role and gets really frustrated when one of us goes off script.  He'll spend a lot of energy trying to wheedle and cajole his kids back into our assigned roles and gets upset when one of us (usually me) refuses to cooperate. 

However, if you told him this is what he's doing, he'd be genuinely baffled and confused.  He has no self-awareness.  If you told him that manipulating his kids into doing what he wanted was not normal, he'd argue that he's not manipulating you at all because this is how normal people relate to each other, and manipulation is an abnormal thing.  He thinks it's normal and that I'm consciously choosing to be disagreeable and difficult when I enforce boundaries. Since he believes he's normal and understands that manipulation is abnormal, he can't possibly be manipulative, because you see, he's normal which means none of this is happening.  He never stops to think "Is there any truth to what is being said? Could my words and actions be perceived as manipulative?".  That would require self-awareness and the willingness to admit he's flawed.  He can't admit that, because it would destroy the little self-worth he has.  In his mind, a character flaw is like death. 

I do believe there are narcissistic people that enjoy causing strife and anguish for others.  They likely have a sociopathic streak in addition to their narcissistic tendencies.  But for my dad, his motivation isn't to watch someone struggle and be uncomfortable.  It's just that his self-esteem is so very low that he can't see any way of building it up without taking part of someone else's joy for himself.     

 

Also, thank you for letting me brain-dump on your threads, @gardenmom5 .  I feel like I jabber on too much sometimes!  You inspire a lot of introspection in me and it's helped put some things in order in my mind.    

This actually might be Borderline Personality Disorder, NPD's cousin disorder.  It's similar but when I hear "All of their actions are with the goal of stopping themselves from feeling bad, insecure, lonely, worried", this seems more like BPD.

[Shoeless]

There is definitely some overlap between NPD and BPD, but my dad doesn't have the emotional volatility that seems to go with BPD. In either case, I don't think my dad's issues are significant enough to be declared a bona fide personality disorder. He definitely checks more boxes in the NPD column than he does in any other. 

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

 

Thanks for letting me do that, too. I feel I jabber too much and hope I'm not hijacking the threads. But, MissLemon, I enjoy your posts!

Thank you!  I enjoy your posts very much, too! 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, MissLemon said:

There is definitely some overlap between NPD and BPD, but my dad doesn't have the emotional volatility that seems to go with BPD. In either case, I don't think my dad's issues are significant enough to be declared a bona fide personality disorder. He definitely checks more boxes in the NPD column than he does in any other. 

there are three types of narcissism.  

overt - the one most people think of as being a narcissist

covert  - aka: "shy" narcissist.  extremely subtle (my grandmother fit this best.)

malignant - the one people think of as a sociopathic narcissist

 

[Shoeless]

My dad definitely leans into "covert" territory.  He is definitely not malignant.  While he has had some "overt" moments that leave you saying "What did he just say?  What just happened here?", he is mostly covert.  Unless you are hypervigilant, you don't realize until half-way through that he's just blasted past a boundary you never thought you had to articulate. Sometimes it's not until days or weeks later that you realize you've been had. 

[*****]

 

I am sorry so many of us are going through similar circumstances.  I think realizing all of those things that happened are part of your healing.  That, along with all the other things you are seeing are important, even if seemingly trivial. Collectively, they are showing you what you are dealing with and you have to keep some kind of list as proof to yourself (and maybe others some day). If this has gone on for many, many years, you will begin to see more examples of the traits of this person and the npd. 

Years ago, I would bring up seemingly small things that my covert would do, to which he would gaslight.  These happened when we visited his out of town family once a year or every 2 years. But they happened every. single. time. and every time, he would trivialize it.  I learned to quit saying anything because it never got me anywhere, but I know what he was doing and I wasn't making it up.  I didn't know what it was called (gaslighting), but now I do. Those were the beginning of his gaslighting. So even though it may seem like a small thing to you, it isn't.  The thing about it...he never cared enough to say, "Gee, this really bothers you, I will do better honey."  He has gaslighted me so much, that I am just now realizing that the response should be an unequivocal, "I am sorry, I hear you and I will do better...for our sake."  

My question is, how does one find a good therapist? I am finding that we don't 'trust' very well because of what we have been dealing with for so long, that we have issues with trust. I have recently learned that from reading on the internet.  I thought it was just me and what I inherited from a family member. So now, I have to learn to trust that a counselor can be helpful, if I find the right one...

I am finding that listening to Lauren Daigle's "Look up Child" is helping with the healing part...😊

[skywards]

20 hours ago, MissLemon said:

My dad definitely leans into "covert" territory.  He is definitely not malignant.  While he has had some "overt" moments that leave you saying "What did he just say?  What just happened here?", he is mostly covert.  Unless you are hypervigilant, you don't realize until half-way through that he's just blasted past a boundary you never thought you had to articulate. Sometimes it's not until days or weeks later that you realize you've been had. 

 

This is the best description of my mother I've ever seen. I never knew there was a word for it! All these years I've thought I must be crazy or imagining it but I've been right all along...

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, skywards said:

 

This is the best description of my mother I've ever seen. I never knew there was a word for it! All these years I've thought I must be crazy or imagining it but I've been right all along...

that feeling when you realize you're not crazy (it's them).....  priceless.

[gardenmom5]

19 hours ago, ***** said:

 

I am sorry so many of us are going through similar circumstances.  I think realizing all of those things that happened are part of your healing.  That, along with all the other things you are seeing are important, even if seemingly trivial. Collectively, they are showing you what you are dealing with and you have to keep some kind of list as proof to yourself (and maybe others some day). If this has gone on for many, many years, you will begin to see more examples of the traits of this person and the npd. 

Years ago, I would bring up seemingly small things that my covert would do, to which he would gaslight.  These happened when we visited his out of town family once a year or every 2 years. But they happened every. single. time. and every time, he would trivialize it.  I learned to quit saying anything because it never got me anywhere, but I know what he was doing and I wasn't making it up.  I didn't know what it was called (gaslighting), but now I do. Those were the beginning of his gaslighting. So even though it may seem like a small thing to you, it isn't.  The thing about it...he never cared enough to say, "Gee, this really bothers you, I will do better honey."  He has gaslighted me so much, that I am just now realizing that the response should be an unequivocal, "I am sorry, I hear you and I will do better...for our sake."  

My question is, how does one find a good therapist? I am finding that we don't 'trust' very well because of what we have been dealing with for so long, that we have issues with trust. I have recently learned that from reading on the internet.  I thought it was just me and what I inherited from a family member. So now, I have to learn to trust that a counselor can be helpful, if I find the right one...

I am finding that listening to Lauren Daigle's "Look up Child" is helping with the healing part...😊

good question!

is this ongoing?  or in the past?  think of narcissistic abuse as death by 1000 cuts.   no single cut will do serious damage, but cumulatively.....they're soul destroying.

a couple youtube channels I'm appreciating are surviving narcissism (dr. les carter) and Joanna kujath.  they both have many short videos on many of the ins and outs and realities of narcissism.  and how to help yourself.

look for one who is familiar with narcissistic abuse, and offers emdr.  I had no clue what I was looking for.   it can also be hard to find one with an opening.   the one I was assigned does emdr.  I had no clue, but she was able to cut to the chase, so to speak.

she offers emdr, and it has been incredibly helpful.  It helps to process the emotion out of the primitive brain.

[skywards]

32 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

that feeling when you realize you're not crazy (it's them).....  priceless.

Oh gosh yes! 

[EMS83]

Is it possible for narcissistic generation A to abuse their offspring (generation B) and essentially turn them into narcissists who then abuse generation C?  And if so, how is C not also turned into a narcissist?  

 

edited for grammar

Edited February 14, 2019 by CES2005

[EMS83]

7 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

The research Erik Kandel has some thoughts on that in his book The Disordered Mind.

It seems there is trauma, which is reinforced to the point that there is a physical change that can't be recovered from.  Or the person was born that way, physically.  

For ex., my NPD seems to have had trauma and does not want any help dealing with it, preferring the drama and attention that narcissism brings; the offspring that is NPD is also a sociopath, and one of that person's offspring is a sociopath but not NPD.  So a mix.    The problem with the first two is that they live in a very small world, so they don't have to acknowledge that their behavior is abnormal.  The third person has a large world, and learned the norms towards other humans in school and from extended fam as it wasn't available in the home.  The offspring that were abused but don't have any mental health issues found most physical abuse stopped at age 7, the typical, as that's when the public school officials take note.  Also as usual, they realized other people weren't in that situation and what the norms were. 

Thank you.  And just to clarify in general, it's not an aspersion on anyone here or meant to undermine; I'm thinking of people I know and myself in particular.  And I think of specific things like gaslighting, and am trying to square that with things like faulty human memory, different perspectives/perceptions, etc.  e.g.: Do I just think I have a bad memory and am really gaslighting?  Am I narcissistic toward my children?  etc.

[Ravin]

A person (especially a highly anxious one) can, in my experience, feel like they are being gaslighted when they are simply encountering some combination of their own faulty memory, the faulty memory of the person they think is gaslighting them, and miscommunication. This happens a lot with my teenager.

Me: You were supposed to do XYZ and I told you if you didn't then the consequence would be ABC, so now ABC is happening."

Her: "You never said that!"

Me: I told you on Day 1 and texted you a reminder on Day 4 that you you had until today to do XYZ. Go back and look.

Her: I never got that text!

Review of phones may reveal that either I thought I sent the text but it didn't transmit, in which case I roll back the consequence and give her another chance because of the miscommunication, or that the text is there, in which case her likely reaction is:

Her: "But I forgot! That's not fair!"

And we go through with the consequence. And probably I try and give more reminders the next time.🙄

If I was gaslighting her, I would continue to insist that I'd told her and follow through with what to her is a very capricious consequence, even when my extraneous proof that I told her proved I was mistaken--a gaslighter would just say they also told her out loud and she shouldn't have needed the reminder anyway, it's all her fault. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

With gaslighting - would the gaslighter actually admit to wrongdoing or potential weakness that would have lead to abusive behavior? In my experience, purely anecdotal, my NPD would never and has never admitted to personal weakness. She has blamed others for almost everything but has never once admitted that anything remotely personal could have been the cause of her behavior. It was either her first stepmom, her second stepmom, my dad, me. It was never menopause, a bad mood, low blood sugar, etc. Every mean or bad thing she did had a root cause in someone else's behavior, attitude, or personality. Or it's simply been ignored or forgotten.

For example, when I was young one winter a cat had been hit by our house and its carcass lay on the median all winter until it was a mummified piece of leather and bones. For some reason, it really creeped me out and I would cross the road to avoid it. One day, it was gone. I was blissfully happy. That evening, when I went to climb on my bed, there was something crunchy underneath the covers. I pulled them back and discovered a plastic bag with what I thought were bones and leather. I screamed in fright and cried. My mother came upstairs, laughing at her joke. When I didn't calm down immediately, I was told to look in the bag. It was sticks and leaves. That did nothing to ease my mind and hurt feelings. Whose mother does crap like that? I struggled all evening with thinking my mom had put mummified cat remains in my bed and didn't want to sleep in my room. I was disciplined for being unreasonable. To this day, she has never apologized. She has never admitted it was a bad idea. She has never said that it was a cruel joke. Instead, I have misremembered the event. I am making up a story. If it did happen, it was bad only because I don't have a sense of humor and need to relax. After all, she is a good mom and would never have done anything so heinous. Just ask my brother and sister- she never did anything like that to them so how could she possibly have done it to me? In the meantime, I am left questioning my reality and wondering why she would have done it then and why she refuses to acknowledge it now.

This is what I think gaslighting is all about.

Edited February 14, 2019 by The Accidental Coach

[sweet2ndchance]

I'll let you know when I figure it out.

My parents gaslighted me; my ex-husband gaslighted me. I really thought I was the crazy one for a long time. But something in the back of my mind nagged at me, I knew I wasn't remembering things wrong or inventing my own history like they said I was, they were just projecting their guilt on me  Then, even once I broke free of all of them, I had the same problem as you are, thinking it must not have been as bad as I remembered and that I was making mountains out of molehills and maybe I really was the bad guy in everything like they said.

It has been eight years since I cut ties and five years of weekly therapy sessions and I still struggle with it frequently. I'm getting better, slowly, but there is still a long road of recovery ahead of me. One thing that has helped me is my current husband who remembers clearly the stories I have told him and some of the things he witnessed. He is able to give me a reality check some times and help me have confidence in my own perceptions and memories. Also, I journaled A LOT during my divorce about both the divorce and my childhood. If I really need a hard reality check, I go back and read those journals. Even when my memory plays tricks on me, seeing my own words about what happened and how it made me feel at the time is reassuring when I'm doubting my sanity.

I'm not sure one can completely recover from narcissistic abuse especially when it occurred over the course of a very very long relationship (15 years with my ex-husband and until my early 30's with my parents). Narcissistic abuse may not always leave scars but it does leave a stain on your mental health that will always need maintenance to keep it in check.

It's always rough when I have to miss a therapy session for whatever reason. And it compounds when one week becomes two and two becomes three... I hope your therapist might be able to squeeze you in somewhere so you don't have to miss so many in a row.

:hugs:

[EMS83]

Holy wow.  Ok.  Thank you for sharing your stories.  ::hugs::  

[fairfarmhand]

My eyes were opened through the magic of texting. My npd ish person began texting me. After a few Terrible weeks, I figured out that no it really wasn’t just me. 

Those screenshots are saved. I need them to reaffirm when I begin to doubt myself.

[LMD]

3 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

One thing that has helped me is my current husband who remembers clearly the stories I have told him and some of the things he witnessed. He is able to give me a reality check some times and help me have confidence in my own perceptions and memories

 

Yes! There have been times when dh has looked at me, puzzled, and said 'uh, no, that's not what happened! Remember x, y, z...'

It is an automatic instinct to just accept her truth as the truth. Though, I don't think my npd person intentionally lies. I think, to them, truth is whatever their current emotions tell you it is. 

An example, she loves to tell the story of me moving out of home. In her version, I was 16, it came out of nowhere, and dh's family brainwashed me into moving in with them. The reality is that I was 17.5 and graduated, dh's family were not at all happy about it (they were 'get married first' people) but I had nowhere else to go because she was moving across town into her latest boyfriend's house!

[gardenmom5]

 

 I like Dr. Les Carter.  here's his explanation of what gaslighting is.

 

[Rosie_0801]

8 hours ago, CES2005 said:

Is it possible for narcissistic generation A to abuse their offspring (generation B) and essentially turn them into narcissists who then abuse generation C?  And if so, how is C not also turned into a narcissist?  

 

C is an individual who may or may not choose to make other decisions.
An abused person who does not in turn become an abuser is almost certainly going to continue being a victim though, until they figure out how it works. 

[Shoeless]

It's the cycle of abuse, like with physical abuse.  You grow up in a setting where abusive action is the norm, so it gets perpetuated in further generations.  I don't think many abusive people consciously choose to hurt others, but the behavior has been taught as a valid way of relating to others and getting their needs met.  So it continues on and on. 

Sometimes there is a break in the chain of abuse, where the abused starts questioning what's going on.  Maybe they have friends with "normal" families and they start to wonder why their family is different.  

From what I can tell, the emotional abuse goes back at least 2 generations in my mom's family and 3 generations in my dad's family.  I can trace through the family tree who was the scapegoat and who was the golden child in each family branch for a few generations.  I have no idea what originally started this, but have some theories in my dad's family (parental abandonment by the great-grandparents due to death of one great-grandparent and mental illness causing divorce with the other set of great-grandparents). 

With my mom's family, the bizarre behavior goes back MUCH further.  I have been in contact with a distant cousin in Germany who describes similar antics in the relatives that stayed in Germany compared to the relatives that came to the US.  It's remarkable how similar they acted and makes me wonder if there is some sort of genetic predisposition in my family to all this "Me me me! It's all about me!" nonsense. 

 

[Shoeless]

10 hours ago, HeighHo said:

The researcher Erik Kandel has some thoughts on that in his book The Disordered Mind.

It seems there is trauma, which is reinforced to the point that there is a physical change that can't be recovered from.  

 

 

This is definitely the case with my 2nd step-mother.  Her mother died when 2nd step-mother was 4 years old.  At age 67, she was screaming at me into the phone about how she didn't need to listen to anything I was saying because her mother died when she was 4, therefore she was entitled to anything she wanted and blah blah blah...

I thought "My god, this woman is permanently broken. She will never heal".  It's just so sad, really.  I feel so sad for the 4-year-old version of her that never got what she needed to heal from her mother dying.  How absolutely awful to be stuck in this horror for over 60 years and have no idea how to break free and feel safe in the world, so you lash out first before someone becomes strong enough to lash out at you.

Part of me feels so badly for her, but part of me also hates her because she knows  what it is like to lose someone so important to you, she knows what that feels like and she chose to take that feeling, weaponize it, and threaten to "make it like he (my child) never even existed". She's angry that other people got the love she never received and feels she's justified and entitled to say anything she wants or make other people feel frightened and hurt, because hey, what makes YOU so special that you shouldn't have to deal with those feelings?  She felt them, so you should have to feel them, too!  

After that ugly, ugly scene my father blew the whole thing off and said "Well, she can't help it" and cried and yelled about how all of this was so hard for him, and now Christmas would be ruined and won't I please just talk with her on the phone so he can have a nice Christmas?  Then a few extended family members huffed and sighed about how *she didn't really mean it* and *stop making a big deal out of nothing* and *it's not like she was going to actually hurt your child* and how *not everything is all about YOU, MissLemon.  Stop taking things so personally and think of others for once*. 

That's where gaslighting starts, with the "It's no big deal! Stop being so sensitive!" type talk, which I finally shut down by responding "Then I guess we won't talk anymore because this is how I am!  I am *sensitive* when people threaten me and my kid, so if you can't deal with it and insist that I need to be ok with being threatened so you can have a nice life?  Then we simply won't talk. Ever. Again."       

After this horrible experience with dad's wife, I just knew that I *had* to do better than this.  I cannot allow this terrible pattern to continue in me and again in my son.  How in the world could I ever look him in the eye if I didn't try to do better?  I have to learn how to be a whole person with healthy boundaries.  He is entitled to a mother like that.  I've seen first hand what happens to people that don't get that type of mother, and that's why I absolutely have to do better.  

Don't' quote any of that, please.  I may delete it later (I'm still working on that boundary of 'oversharing vs appropriate level of sharing', and I'm not sure if I've crossed into oversharing territory). 

[gardenmom5]

33 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

This is definitely the case with my 2nd step-mother.  Her mother died when 2nd step-mother was 4 years old.  At age 67, she was screaming at me into the phone about how she didn't need to listen to anything I was saying because her mother died when she was 4, therefore she was entitled to anything she wanted and blah blah blah...

I 

makes me think of the old lady in cold comfort farm.  "I saw something nasty in the woodshed".

 

 

[homemommy83]

On 2/11/2019 at 6:33 AM, Carrie12345 said:

(((Hugs)))

Are you required to be in any situations that necessitate protecting yourself between now and then? Is there a reason you feel you need to reach acceptance before getting back to your therapist? If not, perhaps trying to force that breakthrough doesn’t need to be your goal right now.  

We had an NPD event leak into our lives in the most unexpected way last night. The content was deeply disturbing, but there was little more for us to do than acknowledge it was disturbing and do our best to “shut the door”, so to speak. Dwelling on the content would absolutely distract us from the fact that the action itself was as NPD as one can get, and losing sight of that would draw us back into the game that 3 NPDs are playing with each other and trying to play with us.

It’s very hard not to play “But...” And that’s what they count on.

(((More hugs)))

We recently dealt with this...and totally cut said family members out of our lives because as much as they hated one another the first time we decided to do something to protect our family-have CMAS at home- they attacked us with false allegations to cps.  I would be very careful and never play their game...just recognize it and distance yourself....permanentlybif any of them are also sociopathic.

[homemommy83]

On 2/11/2019 at 12:43 PM, Indigo Blue said:

A bunch of us were together in a line ordering food one at a time in a place where you go down the line and tell the employee what you want as you move down. As I was telling the server what I wanted at the beginning of the line, mom interrupted him to talk to try to carry on a conversation with me. I answered and went back to my order. As I was going down the line, I was making a mental observation that she often did this, and I was beginning to wonder if it was somehow on purpose. As she finished her order at the end and moved away, I began talking to the server to say what I wanted to finish my order. She turned and walked back to me as I was right in the middle of talking to the server and interrupted again. Because of my mental note-taking just seconds before, I had the presence of mind to not even look toward her. I just put my hand up (it wasn't mean...just a "wait a sec" kind of thing). I kept eye contact with the server and continued. She stopped mid-sentence and kind of looked a little shocked. At this point I was inwardly a little annoyed by this, but I didn't let it show. As I walked away, she finished saying whatever she had been saying.

This wasn't an example of the hurtful behavior she is capable of, but it made me wonder.....is this on purpose? I had to ask myself. It's like she wanted to break the connection of a conversation I was having with another person, and it (as I said) wasn't the first time, but I just then had a light bulb moment that this often happened.

But then what about the other more hurtful things? On purpose? Is she aware? It's so strange because she can "see" and point out what other people do to hurt others in the family. I've always thought that she couldn't "see" what she is doing to me. But she has to know. There is just no way this can't be. If you look at my list, you'd see there is just no way a person can do these things and not know they are doing them. Is she trying to be in control of me? Does she want control of my mind or does she want to distort my perceptions? I really don't know. All I know is that there is a really dark part of her and she directs a lot of that toward me in a very subtle way. 

They like subtle...itbmakes it easier to act like they are notbunderstanding what you are upset about.  The serpent was more subtle than any creature😉..in the garden.  I would distance myself and make solid boundaries...it will show you very quickly her intentions😉.  Npds don't take boundaries very well.

[homemommy83]

3 hours ago, MissLemon said:

 

This is definitely the case with my 2nd step-mother.  Her mother died when 2nd step-mother was 4 years old.  At age 67, she was screaming at me into the phone about how she didn't need to listen to anything I was saying because her mother died when she was 4, therefore she was entitled to anything she wanted and blah blah blah...

I thought "My god, this woman is permanently broken. She will never heal".  It's just so sad, really.  I feel so sad for the 4-year-old version of her that never got what she needed to heal from her mother dying.  How absolutely awful to be stuck in this horror for over 60 years and have no idea how to break free and feel safe in the world, so you lash out first before someone becomes strong enough to lash out at you.

Part of me feels so badly for her, but part of me also hates her because she knows  what it is like to lose someone so important to you, she knows what that feels like and she chose to take that feeling, weaponize it, and threaten to "make it like he (my child) never even existed". She's angry that other people got the love she never received and feels she's justified and entitled to say anything she wants or make other people feel frightened and hurt, because hey, what makes YOU so special that you shouldn't have to deal with those feelings?  She felt them, so you should have to feel them, too!  

After that ugly, ugly scene my father blew the whole thing off and said "Well, she can't help it" and cried and yelled about how all of this was so hard for him, and now Christmas would be ruined and won't I please just talk with her on the phone so he can have a nice Christmas?  Then a few extended family members huffed and sighed about how *she didn't really mean it* and *stop making a big deal out of nothing* and *it's not like she was going to actually hurt your child* and how *not everything is all about YOU, MissLemon.  Stop taking things so personally and think of others for once*. 

That's where gaslighting starts, with the "It's no big deal! Stop being so sensitive!" type talk, which I finally shut down by responding "Then I guess we won't talk anymore because this is how I am!  I am *sensitive* when people threaten me and my kid, so if you can't deal with it and insist that I need to be ok with being threatened so you can have a nice life?  Then we simply won't talk. Ever. Again."       

After this horrible experience with dad's wife, I just knew that I *had* to do better than this.  I cannot allow this terrible pattern to continue in me and again in my son.  How in the world could I ever look him in the eye if I didn't try to do better?  I have to learn how to be a whole person with healthy boundaries.  He is entitled to a mother like that.  I've seen first hand what happens to people that don't get that type of mother, and that's why I absolutely have to do better.  

Don't' quote any of that, please.  I may delete it later (I'm still working on that boundary of 'oversharing vs appropriate level of sharing', and I'm not sure if I've crossed into oversharing territory). 

Sounds like she has an Ahab husband who is weak willed and wants to make her happy and a ton of flying monkeys to help fight her battles for her.

I would respond simply that this an issue between the two of us and I understood her intention clearly.  

[Carrie12345]

21 hours ago, CES2005 said:

Is it possible for narcissistic generation A to abuse their offspring (generation B) and essentially turn them into narcissists who then abuse generation C?  And if so, how is C not also turned into a narcissist?  

 

edited for grammar

In our case, it’s hard to pinpoint where generation A is. The NPD has a sibling who absolutely has NPD traits. Their mother never seemed NPD to me, though their father (who I never met) sounds insane.  But I’ll call the NPD generation A.

Generation B is 2 people. One has very obvious traits. NPD or the trauma of NPD? I don’t know, but her kids suffer for it... to a legal interventions degree.
The other absolutely does have issues/traits, professionally assessed to be ramifications of Gen A’s parenting. (As a cause to be overcome, not a sentence to be accepted.) His children are absolutely impacted, but nothing resembling abuse.

Honestly? I panic a little whenever I see any sort of extreme behavior from generation C.  Which really stinks when they’re teens!!! Teens are going to have irrational moments. But I live with alarm bells ready to go off at any moment.