Venting...and grumpy

[Chris in VA]

That sounds so frustrating! I do have several thoughts--

1. You need to lessen your anger at them being late--so take away their power and shift it to yourself.  Tell them you are going to change their fee structure. "I've noticed you are running late more frequently. In fact, over the last 2 months, you have been late (X times--you have kept track, right?) . It seems you need care until 5:30, not 5pm. So from now on, I will be available until 5:30. If you are coming after 5:30, I am going to take my cue from daycares around here, and I'm going to add an additional $25 charge every day you are not here at 5:30, which will be payable the following day at drop off."  This way, you won't be as angry because they won't be late, you will be compensated for the extra time (because you are going to charge for that extra half hour, you see--build it right into the day so you get paid for it and it is not a late charge anymore), they will not be "running late" anymore, and IF they continue to take advantage by staying out even later, they will be coughing up a good amount that will act as a deterrent. THEN ENFORCE IT THE FIRST TIME--no "grace period." The grace comes in because you have extended the hours you are available. If they say, "We don't need you until 5:30" just smile and say, "I understand but I am going to do this because you are consistently late, and this way you won't have the burden of having to feel you aren't getting your needs met." If they come early, you still charge them. In fact, you can just go to a flat fee instead of hourly if you want (don't know if that is the arrangement already). 

2. It's actually good for kids to have a little risk, and to test some physical boundaries. Perhaps the stairs are not the best place for that, but perhaps they are. I would let it go and let that sweet kid try to go down carefully by himself WITH DAD only. Just tell him that with you, the rule is to hold hands. Daddy has his own rule. There is no reason a typical 3 year old can't handle the difference. Let it go. (And actually, if you can't, just walk him down the stairs and wait there. It's not that hard.) I suspect the issue is the irritation and supressed anger you feel at the other ways they take advantage, not really the stairs, but only you really know that. 

3. Time to review pay. I hope you have looked at comparables to set your fees. With the newborn, it is an excellent time to review that, and they will be expecting that. Don't sell yourself short. I hope you are making at least $300 a week now, and with the extra child, I wouldn't double it, but I'd bump it up by at least 50%. DON'T compare your fees to daycares. You are acting as a nanny. 

4. Let go of your anger at how they spend the time they have childcare. That is their choice. If my kid was in daycare that much, and I was working that much, I might want to go home or run an errand without them from time to time in order to be able to focus on the kiddo when I picked them up--but, of course, not if it made me late. That's the reason you add that half hour--again, take away their ability to irritate you and take control of the situation. 

5. Kids often, I mean OFTEN, fall apart with their own parents. It can mean they are actually more comfortable expressing themselves in a safe place, and they know inside that Mom and Dad will love them even if they have messy emotions. It is developmentally appropriate (I say as a 3s teacher) to have meltdowns with parents, esp at the end of the day. That is not a comment on your care or the safety he feels with you. 

Good luck! 

 

[Katy]

I think everyone's ideas about how to increase to a fair fee structure is good, but at this point I'd demand a two week vacation.  Make SIL take care of her own kid until her maternity leave is over.  They all need to reinforce some relationships, and they aren't going to give that child any boundaries at all until they are responsible for raising him.  It's not uncommon for only children to be in control of the house, but few people with two children let that go on for long.  A two week bootcamp will do them good as a family and go a long way towards making yourself see this situation more clearly.

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Honestly!  I’m all for help and support for new moms but most of us were home solo with a younger toddler and newborn after a week or so.  Unless there’s special needs at play this seems a bit over the top!  Plus I suspect that having to manage both might help them realise they need to set some firmer boundaries with oldest...

or less . . .

if the baby is only a month old, how long has she been back at work?  did she take maternity leave?  pregnancy takes a lot out of most women (dd . . worked three days this week. she's due sunday. but she's an athlete. ), and if she hasn't recovered physically, I'm staring to wonder if she may have some PPD going on.

and yes, - you need boundaries.  state things as "facts" - don't quibble.   this is how much you will charge,  charge late fees  - no quibbling.   quilbbling tells your brother you're open to negotiation - and he seems much better at being a ferengi than you.

3 hours ago, wintermom said:

But these are choices that these parents are voluntarily making for their own benefit. When do they see their child awake when he's at your house 10 hours a day? They value their child and you caring for them so little that it's no wonder they take advantage of you. They do not want to do this job themselves. 

If you need the money, provide day care for a non-family member and set your house rules up clearly and enforce them. Also, reduce the hours you watch the children.

this.

 

and a three year old can easily sleep 12 hours at night.  I doubt he's getting it at their house.

3 hours ago, wintermom said:

But which relationship is the most important; the child's with their own parents, or the child's with an aunt? There is no relationship when you don't see your child for 10 hours a day 5 days a week. 

this.  and why they seem to be afraid of their own children.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

21 minutes ago, Katy said:

I think everyone's ideas about how to increase to a fair fee structure is good, but at this point I'd demand a two week vacation.  Make SIL take care of her own kid until her maternity leave is over....A two week bootcamp will do them good as a family and go a long way towards making yourself see this situation more clearly.

 

I didn't catch that she had some maternity leave left. I think you're right.

[Xahm]

I agree with what others have said about setting clear boundaries and asking for more money and like that you feel comfortable addressing the issue. My only suggestion is that on the step issue, if you feel you need to revisit it with your brother, be explicit about your reasoning that you will soon be watching the baby as well and need the three year old following established routines. From the dad's perspective, he just watched his son jump down the stairs competently (and probably has seen similar feats elsewhere), so it seems silly that you are worried the kid can't walk down the stairs. My two weeks short of two year old is fantastic on stairs and will reliably reach up for my hand if the stairs are unusually steep or wet. If someone told me I had to hold his hand, I'd comply if it was on their property, but there would be lots of eye rolling (inwardly). Also, the child seems littler to you than he does to his dad since he's the oldest in that family, but you have a teenager to compare him to. (I haven't seen your steps of course. They could be death traps and the dad could be crazy! You are with the kid a lot and so are probably a good judge of his abilities. I'm just taking the other position to maybe help you be better able to explain the problem to your brother.)

[Xahm]

Yeah, my husband is in the military and has been gone four months during the last year and will soon be deploying for a year. It is a bit hurtful to think he might be judged as having no relationship with his kids. People who work a lot can be very intentional with the time they do have. It's different, for sure, but not necessarily "no relationship."

[maize]

I also thought the assertion that a parent who is away from their child 10 hours a day 5 days a week can have no relationship with them unreasonable. That is the reality for an awful lot of parents, including most fathers.

I wonder if the poster who made that assertion truly believes that most working parents have no relationship with their children at all.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I thought someone would take offense at the comments about not raising their own kids, not seeing their own kids...I think the critics are responding to the lack of interest, that makes people wonder, "OK, so when do you spend time with him? When do you take care of him?"

They are not a military family, with a deployed parent and a dedicated home parent (with or without use of daycares, sitters, schools, etc.). That would a functioning family, whatever their division of labor and careers. Other families with parents who work long hours, it's still about time with the kids, making plans for quality time, making the arrangements for all aspects of their kids' days and lives. They give zero impression that they are not 100% involved, and as parents, they are definitely in charge.

But the OP's relatives seem to be a married couple who have made no provision for the care of their child other than, "Sis will do it for very cheap." No staggering of schedules so he can have more time with a parent, no proper wages for the carer, no priority to go and pick up their little boy if they're on leave or when they get home, an assumption that it'll go exactly the same with their second child. The plan seems to be for the family to keep their kids for them, as much as possible. 

Apples and oranges.

I'm not convinced that it's "just" laziness. I agree with a pp that it almost sounds like they're afraid to be alone with their children. And the OP thinks they love their kids and could be good parents. I'm not trying to just blame; I think they might need the kind of support that is about mentoring and supporting good parenting, and (lovingly) holding them accountable.

[SKL]

Honestly, I think this is a case of someone getting irrationally angry about a little thing because there is something much bigger brewing beneath the surface.  You are feeling used and disrespected.  I think it's time your brother come to a realization that he needs to show you more respect in the broader sense.

Aside from that, I think a 3yo can walk down stairs, and it is not wrong for his parent to be the boss of him, even while he's leaving your house.

[SKL]

Another point - just very minor, but it makes sense to pick up the baby last when making multiple stops.  That way you don't have to figure out the logistics of NOT leaving the baby in the car when you go inside to help get another passenger or whatever.

[maize]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Honestly, I think this is a case of someone getting irrationally angry about a little thing because there is something much bigger brewing beneath the surface.  You are feeling used and disrespected.  I think it's time your brother come to a realization that he needs to show you more respect in the broader sense.

Aside from that, I think a 3yo can walk down stairs, and it is not wrong for his parent to be the boss of him, even while he's leaving your house.

I think her home her rules.

Certainly her home her liability!

My three year old walks up and down all kinds of stairs and climbs trees and jumps off of beds and...mostly with my encouragement. BUT if I enrolled her in a preschool where the rule was hand holding for stairs I would follow the rule when at the school and reinforce the authority of the teachers to enforce rules.

This is a care giver who has primary responsibility for the child, in her own home, for many hours every week. She deserves to not have her rules undermined by the parents.

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, maize said:

I think her home her rules.

Certainly her home her liability!

My three year old walks up and down all kinds of stairs and climbs trees and jumps off of beds and...mostly with my encouragement. BUT if I enrolled her in a preschool where the rule was hand holding for stairs I would follow the rule when at the school and reinforce the authority of the teachers to enforce rules.

This is a care giver who has primary responsibility for the child, in her own home, for many hours every week. She deserves to not have her rules undermined by the parents.

I think it is a gray area.  They are out the door, going down the stairs.

I have never seen or heard of a rule at any child caring establishments I've been to that required parents to hold a kid's hand on the way out.

I also don't see them watching folks leave, to be able to comment on it one way or the other.

Of course while Auntie is in charge, her rule is THE rule.  Also inside her house.

But right or wrong, I feel like the stairs are not the real issue here.

[maize]

12 minutes ago, SKL said:

Another point - just very minor, but it makes sense to pick up the baby last when making multiple stops.  That way you don't have to figure out the logistics of NOT leaving the baby in the car when you go inside to help get another passenger or whatever.

 

Oh absolutely it is convenient for the parent.

It is exploitative towards a caregiver who is neither informed in advance nor paid additional for the delayed pick up.

[SKL]

Just now, maize said:

 

Oh absolutely it is convenient for the parent.

It is exploitative towards a caregiver who is neither informed in advance nor paid additional for the delayed pick up.

Right, they should have been more straight with her and, since lateness is apparently a pattern, they should pay for it.

[sassenach]

You've got 2 things going on here. the first is that they are taking advantage of you, but they probably don't realize it. You need to SAY SOMETHING. Lots of people assume that everything is fine unless they're told otherwise. When they texted you about getting lunch for the 3yo, you could have responded, "That's fine, but could you make it drive thru so you can come pick up the baby? I need to get on with my day." Or when they said they were going home for a nap: "Would it be helpful for me to bring the baby home or will BIL be coming to pick baby up?"

You need to sit down with them and say, "Love you guys, love your kids, but I need some more predictable boundaries on my time. When we settle on a pick up time, you need to stick with it. If you can't consistently do that, then we need to come up with a different solution for your childcare needs." Nothing will change if you don't have this conversation.

The second issue is the steps. When dad arrives he is on duty, you are off. You cannot and should not try to control his parenting choices. Safety is one of those issues where there is a WIDE range of comfort levels. I am a much more relaxed parent than some. Frankly, unless your nephew has a disability or your stairs are grossly out of code, I'm probably with your brother on this. Even if I wasn't, it's really not your job to step in when he is present. Your nephew is going to push against safety constraints because that's what 3yos do. I don't think dad is impacting it as much as you think. 

[gardenmom5]

I also think those taking offense at the concern when is there relationship with their child when they're away from them for 10  hours comparing apples and oranges.  I'm the one who said the parents seem to be afraid to be alone with their children - which is a big concern. I've known a few moms who were afraid of a single infant and couldn't do any normal activities with infant around.  Normal parents aren't afraid to be alone with their children - even if they spend a lot of time apart.  normal parents - gasp -  can take two children to the dr at once.

I'm wondering if mom has ppd.

but do speak up, enact boundaries, and be firm.

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

I think everyone's ideas about how to increase to a fair fee structure is good, but at this point I'd demand a two week vacation.  Make SIL take care of her own kid until her maternity leave is over.  They all need to reinforce some relationships, and they aren't going to give that child any boundaries at all until they are responsible for raising him.  It's not uncommon for only children to be in control of the house, but few people with two children let that go on for long.  A two week bootcamp will do them good as a family and go a long way towards making yourself see this situation more clearly.

This!  If you are homeschooling, you have a full-time job and you have added childcare on top of that job.  I would use the excuse that I need time for planning for the new school year and to get ready for having an infant added to the care.  And I would draw up a contract with very clear boundaries and a strict fee structure for lateness, due before drop off the next day.  

[jewellsmommy]

After catching up a bit, if I told ya'll what I make a day I think some heads might pop off of some of y'all. So, I will just say there is room for improvement.

I realize that there may be a pattern here. When sil went back to work post first dn, we had a lot of running late and asking me watch him on her days off etc. She seemed to want to maximize every second of childcare. That slowly subsided as he got older and she seemed more comfortable being alone with him. It was going pretty well until she got pregnant. I cut her some slack because ya know pregnancy. She seemed to need a lot of downtime so it was back to old ways. New dn came along, she is still on maternity for another month, and it may be that this is the same pattern repeating. It may take her a while to get back to a comfortable place now that there is two of them. We got into a pretty big issue when 3yr old dn was a baby over her similar behaviors. I don't want to repeat that experience and may be why I have chosen tolerance this time around. I need to find balance.

As far as the stairs. I am trying to determine how much is actually the stairs and how much is everything else. I do think there is some mixing. However, I think some of it is actually what i see in dn. Dd was very physically adept as a toddler and on older. She got her first pair of stilts around 5/6. She was climbing doorways and poles long before that. I was not the type to freak out. Dn runs into a lot of things and doesn't demonstrate as much balance etc. I got him a slide last yr for our living room, and am fine with letting him work out that ability climbing on it, and kicking a ball, using playground equipment, etc (safe ways, because he is already a very bruised child from his own exploits). I do hear y'all though and will evaluate going forward. 

I do know that I will stand firm on the 4 days a week once she goes back to work. Before that, while she is still on leave, I will insist on taking a couple days in the near future. I am thinking really hard on all sides of this.

Lastly, for the record, they are good people and love their dc. Sil just needs a lot reinforcement and time to build confidence, I think. My brother is absent minded and hard headed. He is just used to me being me and while they do take advantage, he probably doesn't realize how much. I am responsible for letting him be used to me and my overly accommodating ways. Some other things that sil has said in the past leads me to believe that her default state is just not one where she sees her impact on others and simultaneously has high expectations of other people. I will need to be more vocal. 

[wintermom]

4 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

My DH would beg to differ.  He leaves the house around 7am each morning and gets home between 6:30 and 7pm each night during the week.  He absolutely does have a relationship with his kids.  

Is his kid 3 years old or younger? Is he seeing them 1 - 2 hours before bedtime day after day? If you saw him this much would you be happy with your "relationship?"

[maize]

5 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Is his kid 3 years old or younger? Is he seeing them 1 - 2 hours before bedtime day after day? If you saw him this much would you be happy with your "relationship?"

If you always had many hours a day with each of your parents and your kids have always had many hours a day with each parent your family is in exceptional circumstances.

An hour or two at night plus weekends is quite normal for working parents and their kids.

Yes they can have a relationship, no quote marks necessary. Yes it may be a somewhat different relationship than that between a child and a parent who is a full time care giver.

[wintermom]

4 minutes ago, maize said:

If you always had many hours a day with each of your parents and your kids have always had many hours a day with each parent your family is in exceptional circumstances.

An hour or two at night plus weekends is quite normal for working parents and their kids.

Yes they can have a relationship, no quote marks necessary. Yes it may be a somewhat different relationship than that between a child and a parent who is a full time care giver.

Interesting ideas to post on a homeschool forum that values time with family.

[wintermom]

20 hours ago, jewellsmommy said:

I'm very unhappy and don't really have irl people for this...

Think about this: if watching this child for 10+ hours a day, 5 days a week is making you grumpy, are you doing your own dh and dc any favours? Are you sacrificing time and energy with your own family so that your brother and his family can do exactly what they want?  Are your dh and dc alright with this? 

[wintermom]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

He has been doing that since before they were born.  And yes, he gets about 2 hrs with them before bed each night during the week.

In fact, when the kids were born, he was gone MORE.

So, you are happy with the situation you've set up? Or is this why you are homeschooling; to ensure that your dc know at least one parent well?

[KungFuPanda]

Wouldn’t you come out ahead financially with a part time job for the extras? Dd could work on her own for a few hours or at grandma’s and your in laws would have to make their own childcare arrangements. If they’re paying you below market value, I’m thinking you could make that with a LOT fewer hours and hassles elsewhere. That would give you a full half day to focus on schooling your daughter without the distraction of babies in the house. 

May the very least, tell them you’re taking a month long break from childcare to get school going and to do things with your daughter that won’t work for little kids. They can manage during maternity leave and you’re enabling their refusal to cope. 

Edited September 1, 2018 by KungFuPanda

[Lang Syne Boardie]

33 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Interesting ideas to post on a homeschool forum that values time with family.

 

This is also a forum that values children having a roof over their head and something to eat! Good grief. Sometimes parents have to go to work, and sometimes they can't get home until shortly before their littlest children go to bed. In other news, the sky is blue.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Tibbie Dunbar

[maize]

29 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Interesting ideas to post on a homeschool forum that values time with family.

I left a career when my oldest child was born and have been home ever since. I see value in children having consistent care from a dedicated parent. I am glad I am able to be home.

And absolutely my children also have a real, if different, relationship with their dad, who they only really interact with for a few hours every week. My friends and relatives who are working mothers also have very real relationships with their children.

The OP's dn is very fortunate in having, in addition to loving parents, a loving aunt and grandmother nearby who he can also have very real relationships with. I don't personally think it is ideal for infants to spend hours away from mom when just weeks old, but having other caregivers does not negate the parental relationship. As less than ideal circumstances go, consistent loving relative is a pretty darn good option.

I like the saying "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good"; none of us is going to live an ideal life.

[LMD]

I do agree that you just need to lay it out straight for them, kindly but straight. Here is your offer, they can take it or leave it. They need you more than you need them.

I will provide care for 2 children from Xam - Ypm, 4 days a week, and the fee is a flat rate of $Z per week (if it's less than $400, you're only making $10 an hour. You need to think about groceries, nappies, utilities, wear and tear on house etc) No, Sorry, the 5th day is already taken and can't negotiate on that. You're allowed to say no, they will adapt if given the opportunity.

[jewellsmommy]

21 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Wouldn’t you come out ahead financially with a part time job for the extras? Dd could work on her own for a few hours or at grandma’s and your in laws would have to make their own childcare arrangements. If they’re paying you below market value, I’m thinking you could make that with a LOT fewer hours and hassles elsewhere. That would give you a full half day to focus on schooling your daughter without the distraction of babies in the house. 

May the very least, tell them you’re taking a month long break from childcare to get school going and to do things with your daughter that won’t work for little kids. They can manage during maternity leave and you’re enabling their refusal to cope. 

 

I absolutely could make more money somewhere, but this isn't all about money. I would rather make this work because I think, if balanced right, it benefits all involved. I am blessed to be able to homeschool. Right now, for whatever their reasons, sil can't stay home full time. The benefits of me being home can be extended to my nephews. I think that they benefit from that. My dd has her space away from them here as she needs it. I don't make her help or allow dn into her space. She spends time with him as she sees fit. If I have a need she steps in. Otherwise I am here for her all the time, and I only have 2 yrs left as her homeschooling mom. Dn doesn't really get in the way of any of that. Granted, 2 nephews in the house will be more to work around and could end up changing that; but this fits our lifestyle right now. As long as I am accomplishing what I need, I like and feel better knowing that dn gets to be with extended family. I just have to get the situation better balanced. If, at some point, it ceases to be a benefit to my immediate family then I will do what has to be done (as I see I need to make changes now). It's a good time to transition to new established boundaries. It definitely needs work, and  thank you ladies for helping me to parse all this out. I know a little better what I want and what I need.

[Ausmumof3]

13 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

My DH would beg to differ.  He leaves the house around 7am each morning and gets home between 6:30 and 7pm each night during the week.  He absolutely does have a relationship with his kids.  

I totally agree as my Dh is away min 50 hours and is a great dad.

however there’s a big difference between a parent who is away for that length of time because they have to be and one who chooses to be away from their child when they don’t need to be for any physical reason.

[school17777]

15 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

May the very least, tell them you’re taking a month long break from childcare to get school going and to do things with your daughter that won’t work for little kids. 

 

This!  Or just part time for the rest of her maternity leave.   I think they would appreciate you more if they experienced having both kids all day.  It would also be a good transition to a more formal arrangement with a raise and no picking up unless they pay a late fee.