s/o What do you consider child abuse?

[SW in IL]

I don't mean so much your personal beliefs, or maybe rather I do. I'm not quite sure myself. Also let me say that I'm not talking about special needs kids here.

 

For example, if I spank my son when he's 4 years old and do not leave any marks other than maybe a temporary red mark on his backside (one that fades within minutes), I do not think that's abuse and I don't think it's legally reportable if I see someone else doing it.

 

I assume that at some age, though, even a spanking is no longer considered disciplnary. At what age would that be? Once the child is larger than the parent? Once the child is 18? Or could a swat on the backside still be considered discipline if a 25 year old is still living at home under mom and/or dad's rule?

 

What about a smack across the face for mouthing off? Or even holding the wrist tightly enough to leave a temporary mark while restraining a child?

 

Thanks,

Sue

 

ETA: I know there are different types of abuse. I forgot to specify that I'm asking about physical abuse right now. Thanks!

Edited November 15, 2008 by SW in IL
Forgot to add something

[E_Edgerton]

As a child who experienced abuse, I think anything that would not be an appropriate consequence in real life (example...the work place or any other adult life situation) is not appropriate to do to a child. It does nothing to promote a true understanding of the world and how it functions. Unless you get spanked at work, school, or by your spouse I see absolutely no reason or purpose to put it upon a child. As in it is never okay to me.

[Lovedtodeath]

As a product of abuse... I would have to say that I think spanking done properly is okay. When I was spanked, I don't look back and consider it abusive. Picking up whatever is available and striking a child without notice is not. Hitting any part of the body other than the bottom is not. Screaming at the child while hitting them is not. Hitting them for being whiny is not okay. Allowing a sibling to hit or spank is not okay.

 

Basically, I feel like spanking needs to have a set limit and a familiar structure every time it is carried out. 1-5 swats on the bottom in the same way every time. Otherwise, it can too easily be abuse.

 

My dd marks really easy. She gets red marks from scratching herself, crossing her legs etc. Red marks don't really mean anything, because some people get them from the slightest touch and others don't.

 

I think that individual children need different approaches. My dd has sensory integration disorder and I figured out real quick that spanking is not something that is a good idea with her. I also think that if a child has grown up with spanking they handle it better than a child who reaches 5 or 6 and all of the sudden the parents decide to start spanking.

 

I think anything that is unjustified or makes a child feel unloved on a regular basis is abusive. I think that everyone has been abusive to their children at some point, (if not physical then emotional). The important thing is that your child feel loved.

[Frankie]

I do NOT believe in any form of spanking.

 

There are so many better and more effective ways to discipline a child now, I honestly do not understand why parents spank anymore.

 

Anything that leaves a mark, however long the mark stays there, is, in my opinion, abusive. And my years sitting in a courtroom would back that up.

 

In my opinion, it is NEVER acceptable to smack a child across the face.

[bumbledeb]

I'm not sure about where you are but I believe that the kind of spanking you describe could be considered reportable abuse here.

 

I certainly would consider it abuse.

 

As was said above, anything that would be inappropriate in the adult world is, or should be, inappropriate for children.

 

Clearly, with normal spanking, we are not looking at the possibility of physical harm, so in what way is it abuse? I believe it would come under mental and emotional abuse.

 

There is really no necessity to spank, so why take the risk?

[percytruffle]

I will refer you to this Mandated Reporter's Guide from NY State. Everyone's views will be different on this subject, but here is what the law says in my state.

 

"Abuse" is usually reserved for unusual, ongoing, unprovoked, or extreme cases and not for an occasional spanking where red marks fade quickly unless it is a component of neglect or emotional abuse. While some will disagree about the spanking issue, if you really want definitive answers to this question from a legal standpoint you need to search for Child Protective Services in your state and see what they have to say. Opinions will be all over the map, not that they aren't valid, but they may not provide you with the answers you seek.

 

I will add, when in doubt, report. CPS is not looking to break up families unnecessarily. Their ultimate goal is to keep families together, with the needed help, as much as possible.

 

Here is the actual definition from the site:

 

Physical abuse is non-accidental physical injury of a child inflicted by a parent or caretaker which ranges from superficial bruises and welts to broken bones, burns, serious internal injuries and in some cases, death. The definition of physical abuse includes actions that create a substantial risk of physical injury to the child.

Edited November 15, 2008 by percytruffle

[RoughCollie]

Re the 25 year old in your question, here's what I think. Any adult who allows another adult to hit him has already been abused into submission. It is a crime to hit an adult, unless it is done in self-defense or defense of others.

 

I do not agree with inflicting pain upon children as a means of discipline. Marks on the body may fade, or may not appear at all, but the potential damage to the child's psyche and to the relationship the child has with his parent(s) may be devastating.

 

IMO, there is a big difference between a swat on a clothed behind and a spanking. From what I can tell, a child is spanked when the parent is angry and/or does not understand child development and/or does not know how to more effectively handle a situation.

 

It is never okay to slap or hit someone's face.

 

All that said, I don't know anyone who has punished a child using pain as their method of enforcement -- except for criminal defendants as part of my job.

Edited November 15, 2008 by RoughCollie

[Peela]

I am not sure- most of us feel there is some sort of line..and sometimes we feel it because we know we have crossed it at some stage. I have at times, in smacking a child in rage, even though it left no physical traces- I know I stepped over a line in myself, and I am not against occasional smacking.

The smacking thing seems to fade out as they get older- perhaps its because they naturally respond to other consequences better and simply mature. I cant remember when I last smacked my 14yodd, although I think I hit my 13yods this week when he was being really rude to me- it was a rough week for us with each other.

I don't think arbitary rules and ages are really the issue here and smacking at all for many people is child abuse- even raising the voice, some people feel is abusive- others are OK with rods and belts. Whether the kid feels abused or not can be quite subjective and dependent on many other factors.

My dad told me once that his dad hit him hard when he was 12- for the last time- when he was rude- I cant remember if he was physical, but somehow he was somehow disrespectful to his mother. It made a great impact on him- positive, he feels.

I am not sure what I actually believe around physical punishment- in an ideal world it just wouldn't happen- but I am not sure its so damaging, either, as some people make out. I kind of fall in the middle, but try to keep an open mind for better, more appropriate, healthier solutions.

I dont think smacking anywhere other than the hand or butt- or perhaps thigh- is appropriate. Never on the mouth or face or head - but I cant tell you why, it's just a gut feeling that that is not ok. I am not ok with using tools either- belts etc. And I personally never wait till i am cool to smack- I always smack in the heat of the moment. If I wait till I cool down, I would never do it. I see smacking as far less hurtful than long term punishments, and its over with quite quickly. I cant stand seeing mothers of small children trying to lecture with and reason with their misbehaving children- its torture and its not effective.

One of my issues is...my kids get the occasional smack, or have had- they see their parents lose their temper, and they are allowed to express anger too, although we try to train them to be respectful and they generally are. But these kids are comfortable around a certian level of volatility, if you know what I mean, without living in an environment that is always like that, or unpredictably so (as in say an alcoholic family). They wouldn't be intimidated easily because they can stand in the face of someone being angry with them. Even though *ideally* a 100% peaceful loving environment where no one raises their voices seems great, I am not sure I would want it anyway. To learn to deal with anger and strong feelings is important,and seeing adults struggle with it is a normal part of life, I feel. I grew up in a household where no one was ever angry in front of the kids but man oh man, you could cut the air with a knife at times and there was so much repression. It took me years to even know what I felt, because only certain feelings were appropriate in my home and I lost contact with my feelings. To me that is just as bad as the other extreme of too many out of control emotions.

So I just do my best to let things flow and help everyone express what they feel respectfully, and apologise when we don't. Its not perfect by any means, but I dont pretend I have itall together, either.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I simply go based off the legal definitions in order to make "the call." Here that is a lasting mark on head/face or torso.

 

So that is ABUSE but I think most people here (in my state) are abusive with their kids. Abusive would mean mistreating the child, doing something inappropriate or unnecessary. Spanking, yelling, etc would fall under that as would continuing to punish in ineffective or harmful or severe ways or regularly. Almost EVERYONE does those things. If they do it more than once in an extremely blue moon and then apologize, I think there is a parenting problem and I think it's very sad; however, it's rarely legally abuse.

 

And the good news is that almost all kids grow up okay despite a bit of abusiveness.

[Parrothead]

I see nothing wrong with the occasional pop on the diaper if it is called for - that is more of an attention getter than a spanking. And the pop I'm talking about should never be something that you have to hold the child up for, i.e., grabbing an arm with one hand and holding the child upright so it doesn't have it's legs knocked out from under it when hit. The popper's hand shouldn't sting after the poppee has been popped.

 

And the child who isn't walking has no reason to be spanked. It isn't going to put its finger in an electrical outlet, run into the street or do anything dangerous.

 

After a child outgrows the diaper stage, consequences/discipline/punishment, what ever you want to call it, should move beyond the spanking (for want of a better word) stage. Various forms of time out when a child can associate the misbehavior with the consequences/discipline/punishment should be enough to keep the child in line.

 

Then, once, grounding (which is really just a stricter time out) is age appropriate it should be used. It is a longer form of consequences/discipline/punishment. A spanking is over with in a matter of seconds, a grounding for a week is a constant reminder of what happened - at least until the grounding is over.

 

I'd mentally question anyone who spanks often, who uses an instrument (belt, spoon) to spank or is spanking a child over 5.

[Pamela H in Texas]

IMO, there is a big difference between a swat on a clothed behind and a spanking.

 

Interesting.

 

I kinda wish that spanking is legal that it would be better defined. The good part about that would be that people wouldn't be wondering if what they are seeing is legally abuse or not. Parents will know where the line truly is.

[Free Indeed]

I think out of control spankings or yelling or anything else "out of control" is abusive. I do think spankings by loving parents is fine, I also believe that it is taught in the Bible though some people disagree with me. I will not get in that debate though. :D So in short doing anything out of control is abusive.

[Mel in K-zoo]

I don't post very often, but I am going to jump in here. I do spank. The older my girls get the less I spank. I try not to spank when I am angry. That being said, I had an interesting spanking experience this week. My 8 yo who I rarely spank was in trouble. I told her that she had to write lines. She started throwing a fit. I said fine, would you rather have a spanking. She said yes. For her, a spanking is done and over with and not a long drawn out punishment. Lines are a much worse form of punishment for her. Just an interesting observance. By the way, my spankings hurt, but are not more than 2 and I use my hand.

[pqr]

I would like to offer a public thanks to my parents for every single time they spanked me. My father believes in the belt and you can be sure it left a mark.

 

I was spanked for:

lying; rudeness; poor grades; violating the rules of the household; hurting my younger siblings; doing anything that was dishonorable and laziness.

 

I learned many of life's lessons through this and no matter how much it hurt I never felt that it was done unfairly. Following the punishment I was always given a hug and reminded that I was loved.

 

My father never told me "this is going to hurt me more than you," but even at a young age I could tell that it hurt him to spank.

 

It seems to me that a lot of today's children could do with a spanking once in a while.

 

One poster stated,

 

 

I think anything that would not be an appropriate consequence in real life (example...the work place or any other adult life situation) is not appropriate to do to a child. It does nothing to promote a true understanding of the world and how it functions. Unless you get spanked at work, school, or by your spouse I see absolutely no reason or purpose to put it upon a child. As in it is never okay to me.

 

I do not see how this works. I can not fire my child, make him homeless, send him to prison or any of the other consequences of misbehavior in "real life." Obviously I would never want to, but these are real life consequences.

 

Spanking DOES "promote a true understanding of the world. " It demonstrates that there are consequences for actions and that they can be painful.

 

I only think back to my childhood, once we moved to the States. In PS I ran into many boys whose parents would never spank them. Indeed I heard the snide comment about "I would sue them."

 

I was a little younger than the other boys in my class and subject to bullying. My main tormentor was one of these boys. Despite being talked to about his behavior (by his parents) he continued. Had his parents spanked him for his behavior, it might have stopped as the application of pain is a great behavioral modifier. Eventually, in a fight, I broke his nose and it was this application of pain that led him to leave me alone. I blame his parents and their "enlightened" view for the tyrant that their child became.

 

I know far far more children who were ruined by refusal of their parents to spank than were ever hurt by excessive punishment.

[Tree House Academy]

Anything done in severe haste or anger that leaves a mark. I try, before disciplining my kids, to sit down and get calm first. My dad was abusive. He would rip his belt off and hit me around in a circle while holding one of my arms in the air. He didn't really care whether he used the buckle end or the belt end as long as he was hitting me. Spit would fly out of his mouth as he screamed at me. Bruises would appear almost immediately. This was abuse.

 

I have held my son's wrist. If he struggles against it to the point of where if I had to hold any tighter, I would leave a mark, then I let go and seek an alternate route of discipline.

 

That said, we do spank and we spank with a paddle most of the time. The kids RARELY need spanked. However, the paddle is used just like in an old time country school. We sit down and calmly talk about what happened and WHY a spanking is the punishment (sometimes it is other things - losing privileges, etc. a spanking happens when all else has failed and the behavior continues) and then they get their licks. It does not leave a mark and I find it much less personal than hitting with my hand (which I do find inappropriate). I would NEVER use a belt on my kids. EVER.

 

ETA: And I would never spank a child unclothed. Just to be clear on that - kids have all clothes on when paddled. Again, just like they did it in school when I was a kid.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Tree House Academy

[5kidsforME]

I would like to offer a public thanks to my parents for every single time they spanked me. My father believes in the belt and you can be sure it left a mark.

 

I was spanked for:

lying; rudeness; poor grades; violating the rules of the household; hurting my younger siblings; doing anything that was dishonorable and laziness.

 

I learned many of life's lessons through this and no matter how much it hurt I never felt that it was done unfairly. Following the punishment I was always given a hug and reminded that I was loved.

 

My father never told me "this is going to hurt me more than you," but even at a young age I could tell that it hurt him to spank.

 

It seems to me that a lot of today's children could do with a spanking once in a while.

 

One poster stated,

 

 

 

 

I do not see how this works. I can not fire my child, make him homeless, send him to prison or any of the other consequences of misbehavior in "real life." Obviously I would never want to, but these are real life consequences.

 

Spanking DOES "promote a true understanding of the world. " It demonstrates that there are consequences for actions and that they can be painful.

 

I only think back to my childhood, once we moved to the States. In PS I ran into many boys whose parents would never spank them. Indeed I heard the snide comment about "I would sue them."

 

I was a little younger than the other boys in my class and subject to bullying. My main tormentor was one of these boys. Despite being talked to about his behavior (by his parents) he continued. Had his parents spanked him for his behavior, it might have stopped as the application of pain is a great behavioral modifier. Eventually, in a fight, I broke his nose and it was this application of pain that led him to leave me alone. I blame his parents and their "enlightened" view for the tyrant that their child became.

 

I know far far more children who were ruined by refusal of their parents to spank than were ever hurt by excessive punishment.

 

Hear hear!! :001_smile:

[Joanne]

I'm against spanking, but I don't believe that it qualifies as reportable abuse.

 

I'm *more* against the parenting approaches that consider spanking training and suggest spanking as primary (and usually frequent) discipline.

 

I am wholeheartedly against thinking punishment and discipline and training are synomymous.

 

While I don't believe "a spanking" is reportable, I do believe that frequent spanking creates a hostile, angry awful environment for a child.

 

I do believe that spanking infants is *always and without question* abuse.

 

I do believe that spanking older children is *always and without question* abuse.

 

I believe the above 2 are *always and without question* poor parenting.

 

I like in a state where spanking is assumed, where a school district nearby still spanks, where "spanking" with a belt is expected. I believe it compromises quality parenting. In general, I think our children are over punished and under disciplined.

[Tracey in TX]

Interesting.

 

I kinda wish that spanking is legal that it would be better defined. The good part about that would be that people wouldn't be wondering if what they are seeing is legally abuse or not. Parents will know where the line truly is.

It would have to be up to individual states. I once called CPS to ask if spanking was allowable in TX, and was told spanking a child and leaving no lasting mark is acceptable. As we've seen from this forum only about half of parents agree with spanking as an option. So much of parenting depends on the respective child. What works wonders for DC#1 can be a joke for DC#2. (Any time my parents chastised me and attempted guilt I thought, "good, got away with it..." BFF would burst into tears if she ever disappointed a parent, teacher, etc.) Even within a family results are different for identical discipline style.

 

Regarding the initial question: what constitutes abuse? I believe that neglect, and overindulgence are just as harmful as physical and verbal abuse. Screaming and berating a child on a consistent basis is abusive. Leaving marks for more than several minutes for an intentional hit, spanking a child older than a certain age is also abusive. (I have spanked my kids and typically swatted them with less force than the 'love pat' on the bottom to shoo them out of the way--done in a joking manner. Kids clearly know difference between the spanking and the jovial pat on bottom. It's about the attitude.)

 

Hopefully your state has written rules which you can determine what constitutes abuse.

[clarkacademy]

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Enough said

 

 

 

 

I would like to offer a public thanks to my parents for every single time they spanked me. My father believes in the belt and you can be sure it left a mark.

 

I was spanked for:

lying; rudeness; poor grades; violating the rules of the household; hurting my younger siblings; doing anything that was dishonorable and laziness.

 

I learned many of life's lessons through this and no matter how much it hurt I never felt that it was done unfairly. Following the punishment I was always given a hug and reminded that I was loved.

 

My father never told me "this is going to hurt me more than you," but even at a young age I could tell that it hurt him to spank.

 

It seems to me that a lot of today's children could do with a spanking once in a while.

 

One poster stated,

 

 

 

 

I do not see how this works. I can not fire my child, make him homeless, send him to prison or any of the other consequences of misbehavior in "real life." Obviously I would never want to, but these are real life consequences.

 

Spanking DOES "promote a true understanding of the world. " It demonstrates that there are consequences for actions and that they can be painful.

 

I only think back to my childhood, once we moved to the States. In PS I ran into many boys whose parents would never spank them. Indeed I heard the snide comment about "I would sue them."

 

I was a little younger than the other boys in my class and subject to bullying. My main tormentor was one of these boys. Despite being talked to about his behavior (by his parents) he continued. Had his parents spanked him for his behavior, it might have stopped as the application of pain is a great behavioral modifier. Eventually, in a fight, I broke his nose and it was this application of pain that led him to leave me alone. I blame his parents and their "enlightened" view for the tyrant that their child became.

 

I know far far more children who were ruined by refusal of their parents to spank than were ever hurt by excessive punishment.

[bumbledeb]

I used to be pro-spanking and indeed used to spank my own children, back in my unenlightened days before discovering there was any other way of doing things.

 

Now, I am vehemently anti-spanking. The arguments for spanking seem to me to be nonsense.

 

In many places spanking is illegal and there is not an upsurge of delinquency as a result.

 

I know the die-hard spankers may not be able to understand this, but it is absurdly possible to raise well-behaved, polite, kind, caring, non-violent children not only without spanking but without any kind of punishment whatsoever.

 

That being the case, why spank? There is no good reason to do so. Perhaps the only reason left is that the spanker wants to use this means of child-control. Maybe all the spankings inflicted upon him/her in childhood didn't 'do no harm' after all.

[Pamela H in Texas]

In many places spanking is illegal and there is not an upsurge of delinquency as a result.

 

Well, and the places it's most often used have higher delinquency rates, higher social problem rates, lower education rates, etc.

 

I am anti-spanking though not as vehemently as I was in the past. Even if there weren't issues with it, it's just plain unnecessary. If you have a choice, why NOT use better discipline?

[Harriet Vane]

I think it's important to make a distinction between bad parenting and abuse. I truly hate it when people throw around volatile language for behaviors that, while harmful or unwise, do not constitute reportable abuse. Doing so really does minimize the suffering of those who have experienced true abuse.

 

Forced or coerced sexual activity is always abusive, as is any sexual behavior with/towards a minor.

 

Routine physical violence is abusive, as is excessive physical violence. By violence, I do mean more than a spanking.

 

Depriving a child of food or water routinely to the point of malnourishment or starvation. This is different from depriving a child of one meal as a form of discipline.

 

It is a hard thing to define because there is such a range and variety of behaviors that can be defined as abusive. A control freak can actually make life completely miserable for his/her family, in a way that I would consider abusive, but not cross the line into reportable abuse. Those are such hard cases, as everyone knows the situation is not right, but it's not wrong enough for the government to intervene.

[st_claire]

My feelings are that if you are permanently injuring the child, I will report it. If you hurt the child, but not permanently, the child should be able to seek legal action against you when they are mentally capable if they feel it was excessive.

 

For my own children, I would not use physical discipline on them at all. I consider it the same as a husband hitting his wife.

 

The line I like to say when asked why I wouldn't spank a child is: "spankings are for consenting adults only." :lol:

[pqr]

For my own children, I would not use physical discipline on them at all. I consider it the same as a husband hitting his wife.

 

 

...and if my wife spanks the children is it the same as her hitting me?????

 

Loving parents spank their children. To accuse us of abuse is outrageous. Were I to hit my wife that would be abuse and illegal, when I spank my children it is because I love them more than life itself. I will do anything necessary to help them grow into honorable adults who; become valued members of their sociery, learn morality, serve their nation, become good and loving parents, learn that there are consequences for their actions and become men and women of repute.

 

You may raise your children in any manner you see fit, but please do not compare spanking a child with beating one's wife. It is a poor argument and really does not make much sense.

[PrairieAir]

:iagree:

I would like to offer a public thanks to my parents for every single time they spanked me. My father believes in the belt and you can be sure it left a mark.

 

I was spanked for:

lying; rudeness; poor grades; violating the rules of the household; hurting my younger siblings; doing anything that was dishonorable and laziness.

 

I learned many of life's lessons through this and no matter how much it hurt I never felt that it was done unfairly. Following the punishment I was always given a hug and reminded that I was loved.

 

My father never told me "this is going to hurt me more than you," but even at a young age I could tell that it hurt him to spank.

 

It seems to me that a lot of today's children could do with a spanking once in a while.

 

One poster stated,

 

 

 

 

I do not see how this works. I can not fire my child, make him homeless, send him to prison or any of the other consequences of misbehavior in "real life." Obviously I would never want to, but these are real life consequences.

 

Spanking DOES "promote a true understanding of the world. " It demonstrates that there are consequences for actions and that they can be painful.

 

I only think back to my childhood, once we moved to the States. In PS I ran into many boys whose parents would never spank them. Indeed I heard the snide comment about "I would sue them."

 

I was a little younger than the other boys in my class and subject to bullying. My main tormentor was one of these boys. Despite being talked to about his behavior (by his parents) he continued. Had his parents spanked him for his behavior, it might have stopped as the application of pain is a great behavioral modifier. Eventually, in a fight, I broke his nose and it was this application of pain that led him to leave me alone. I blame his parents and their "enlightened" view for the tyrant that their child became.

 

I know far far more children who were ruined by refusal of their parents to spank than were ever hurt by excessive punishment.

 

This is a good post. I was spanked as a child (hand, wooden spoon, hair brush, ping pong paddle) and I have never thought of it as abuse. I have very clear childhood memories from as early as three of all sorts of things, including being spanked a few times. I don't remember ever thinking as a child that a spanking was cruel or unfair or abusive. I understood clearly the reason for each spanking, that I was loved, and that my mom truly hated to have to spank me. I also understood that the purpose of the spanking was to enforce a lesson I had failed to learn by hearing only. My mom has said a few times that a wooden spoon (used most often for spankings) works very well as a Q-tip for cleaning out those ears.

 

I only once had a mark from a spanking. (The wooden spoon had a burned out spot on the back which left a small welt.) It was an accident. My mom had not spanked me any harder and she was very sorry it happened. I understood. And I do also mark easily.

 

I also agree with what others have said about never spanking out of anger or in haste. It is the parent's job to make sure they have taught the child in the first place. A child shouldn't be spanked for something they had no way of knowing was wrong. Spankings are for deliberate and continued disobedience in order to reinforce something which has already been taught.

 

I think giving adult consequences such as pqr (I keep wanting to say PDQ:D) has mentioned would be abusive. Firing a child from their job as your son or daughter or making them homeless? Um, no. Talk about damaging their psyche. What's left? Pay cut? My children don't receive an allowance. Any money they receive from us for extra work around the house is a wage they've earned. Why tie punishment for something unrelated to work they've completed satisfactorily? (Paying for something they broke with money they've earned is different.) I suppose they could be sent to their rooms, but that with my oldest that only allowed him to stew and think up more trouble to get into. What adult consequence is that supposed to approximate anyway? Jail? Hmmm, I don't know if I want to equate any spot in my home with prison.

 

Spanking is not always the appropriate punishment for an offense, either. It depends on the situation. And it depends on what works for the individual child.

 

I haven't spanked any of my kids in several years, btw. The last would have been the youngest when she was about 9 or 10. It's no longer an appropriate punishment for my children at their ages and level of maturity. They're ready for adult consequences now, though I still won't be docking their pay, firing them as my children, or kicking them out. They also don't need it any more. I think there is a very brief window of time where spanking is useful. Much past 10 doesn't seem to work well because by that age they should understand expectations for behavior, understand possible natural consequences (which the spankings often are to help them avoid), and hopefully because by that age they've been taught well enough that they want to do what is right of their own accord.

[st_claire]

...and if my wife spanks the children is it the same as her hitting me?????

 

In my opinion, yes. The reason I phrased it the other way was because on average, most husband are physically stronger than their wives. The men could stop the attack easily. Children are usually weaker than their parents, and so they also cannot stop the act.

 

Loving parents spank their children. To accuse us of abuse is outrageous. Were I to hit my wife that would be abuse and illegal, when I spank my children it is because I love them more than life itself. I will do anything necessary to help them grow into honorable adults who; become valued members of their sociery, learn morality, serve their nation, become good and loving parents, learn that there are consequences for their actions and become men and women of repute.

 

You may raise your children in any manner you see fit, but please do not compare spanking a child with beating one's wife. It is a poor argument and really does not make much sense.

 

I did not accuse anyone of abuse. Please don't put words in my mouth. While you make arguments about hitting your children to teach them, those same arguments have been made about hitting women to "teach them". I think the argument of comparing the two is very valid and accurate. Both situations are a stronger person physically harming a weaker one who does not consent.

[PrairieAir]

That being the case, why spank? There is no good reason to do so. Perhaps the only reason left is that the spanker wants to use this means of child-control. Maybe all the spankings inflicted upon him/her in childhood didn't 'do no harm' after all.

 

That's pretty ballsy to assume that any of us who have spanked or do spank our children want to use spanking as a means of "control" because we have been twisted by our own upbringings and now want...what? Revenge? To pass our own misery onto our children? Do you realize what you're describing here?

 

I have no problem with your opinion on spanking. You are free to raise your children as you like and think of those who do spank as you like. However, the last paragraph is pretty nasty. I am not some poor, tortured and abused soul who has turned my unfortunate past on my children so that I can now be the punisher and have victims of my own to inflict pain upon and bend to my will. That's pretty sick. I hope you didn't mean it the way it sounds, but I can't think of any other way to take it.

[pixelroper]

Spanking DOES "promote a true understanding of the world. " It demonstrates that there are consequences for actions and that they can be painful.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Abuse is abuse, whether physical or mental, direct or indirect, concrete or abstract it is entirely different and unrelated to a punishment given for knowingly breaking the rules.

[bumbledeb]

That's pretty ballsy to assume that any of us who have spanked or do spank our children want to use spanking as a means of "control" because we have been twisted by our own upbringings and now want...what? Revenge? To pass our own misery onto our children? Do you realize what you're describing here?

 

I have no problem with your opinion on spanking. You are free to raise your children as you like and think of those who do spank as you like. However, the last paragraph is pretty nasty. I am not some poor, tortured and abused soul who has turned my unfortunate past on my children so that I can now be the punisher and have victims of my own to inflict pain upon and bend to my will. That's pretty sick. I hope you didn't mean it the way it sounds, but I can't think of any other way to take it.

 

Truly I didn't mean any of what I said to sound nasty, and I am sorry if that is the way it came across.

 

I believe what I said to be true, but not in the sick way it may have come across to you.

 

I was spanked, not in any way that would be considered abuse, even nowadays in most places.

 

I spanked as a new mother, I thought the anti-spankers were ridiculous. I had three children under 3 when I first even heard that there were people who didn't believe in spanking - I heard an interview on the radio and was aghast at the very idea.

 

It took me a couple of years and some quite intensive research and thought on the matter before I came to view I have now. I don't consider that before this I was the person you describe (or believed I was describing) and I certainly don't think of most spanking parents in that way.

[Peek a Boo]

a stronger person physically harming a weaker one who does not consent.

 

 

i think the ability to consent is a big issue in the discussion.

 

Children aren't treated like adults because, well, they AREN't. Not emotionally, physically, or legally.

 

We expect certain requirements/ abilities from coworkers and spouses. Those same requirements and abilities may prove impossible for children.

 

I'm pretty much w/ pqr on this. My grandmother smacked me across the face once when i was....12? It made quite a valid impression on me. and yeah, i deserved it.

 

but I'm also kinda agreeing w/ Joanne -- *I* try to find effective ways to accomplish the desired effect w/o resorting to spanking, but I'd rather spank or flick an ear that let the wrong behavior continue.

 

and pixelroper hit the nail on the head: i do believe there is a difference between real ABUSE and disagreeing w/ parental practices.

 

in short, I make my decision on 'abuse' as to whether i think the child/person would be better off in foster care/ out of that family.

[st_claire]

i think the ability to consent is a big issue in the discussion.

 

I think most kids who are being spanked are able to say loud and clear "no, I don't want to be spanked." Thus I feel they have the ability to consent or not consent. I also think children should have the same rights as adults, including the right not to be harmed against their will.

[Firefly]

Re: consequences... there can be other consequences besides physically hitting a child. That's the problem-- a lot of spankers assume all anti-spankers are also anti-discipline (and I'm sure some are). But that's not always the case. I run a tight ship here, and have children that are well behaved. I've been able to achieve this through consequences... withdrawl of priveledges for example. I've never had a need to resort to hitting/spanking my child. I was spanked and though I turned out alright (no comments from the peanut gallery ;)), I do feel like it destroyed my self-esteem. There IS a better way, IMHO.

[PrairieAir]

Truly I didn't mean any of what I said to sound nasty, and I am sorry if that is the way it came across.

 

I believe what I said to be true, but not in the sick way it may have come across to you.

 

I was spanked, not in any way that would be considered abuse, even nowadays in most places.

 

I spanked as a new mother, I thought the anti-spankers were ridiculous. I had three children under 3 when I first even heard that there were people who didn't believe in spanking - I heard an interview on the radio and was aghast at the very idea.

 

It took me a couple of years and some quite intensive research and thought on the matter before I came to view I have now. I don't consider that before this I was the person you describe (or believed I was describing) and I certainly don't think of most spanking parents in that way.

 

Glad to hear it. I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. I certainly don't think all anti-spankers are ridiculous, either. Only some:D But that could be said of any group.

[Joanne]

Let's post some reality. Spanking is not abuse. Not panking is not permissive. The presence or absence of spanking in a child's life says absolutely nothing about the quality of family life or discipline. Terrific and awful parents are found on both sides of that issue.

 

Children need loving, engaged pareents who understand developmental behavior. They need lots of discipline and punishment should not be frequent. Unrelated punishment, which is spanking in most cases, should be avoided or minimized.

 

If you know a family who doesn't spank and the children are out of control, it's not lack of SPANKING, it's lack of discipline.

 

The emphasis on spanking - or not - has concerned me for years. Spanking - or not - should not carry that level and intensity of importance in parenting. If it's used, it should be minimal. If it's not used, discipline and family should be well past "not spanking" as a family value.

 

Some of the defense of over punishment in this thread has made me sad and frustrated that our parenting tool boxes are so limited.

[Pamela H in Texas]

That's the problem-- a lot of spankers assume all anti-spankers are also anti-discipline (and I'm sure some are). But that's not always the case. I run a tight ship here, and have children that are well behaved.

 

I've been accused of being TOO strict though we use no punishments. LOL We DO have high expectations and standards. We just don't feel we need to punish our kids to control them, but believe in teaching, guiding (ie, DISCIPLINING) in order to help them learn our rules, values, etc.

 

ETA: Of course, I would hope that everyone would agree that my kids are way too old to hit even if you did believe in hitting hands, faces, butts, etc at some points in life.

Edited November 15, 2008 by 2J5M9K

[bumbledeb]

I've been accused of being TOO strict though we use no punishments. LOL We DO have high expectations and standards. We just don't feel we need to punish our kids to control them, but believe in teaching, guiding (ie, DISCIPLINING) in order to help them learn our rules, values, etc.

:iagree:

That is exactly how we do things here. And the kids are wonderful!:001_smile:

[Pamela H in Texas]

and pixelroper hit the nail on the head: i do believe there is a difference between real ABUSE and disagreeing w/ parental practices.

 

in short, I make my decision on 'abuse' as to whether i think the child/person would be better off in foster care/ out of that family.

 

And really, that is a HEFTY consideration. It is EXTREMELY detrimental for a child, even an abused one, to be removed from his family. Those few people that DO call for moderate spankings could really wreak havok on a child which would be much more problematic than what is going on at home.

 

I would NEVER call for things I just don't like. I see it almost DAILY! But I don't like A LOT of what people do, but I'd NEVER put a CHILD through what it would do if that child got an over-anxious social worker!

 

I've called CPS a handful of times. They were for serious issues that EVERYONE would agree were HUGE problems. And btw, in only one of the situations were the children EVENTUALLY taken away (after 2.5 years and what could have been a deadly incident).

[sunshine]

I used to be pro-spanking and indeed used to spank my own children, back in my unenlightened days before discovering there was any other way of doing things.

 

Now, I am vehemently anti-spanking. The arguments for spanking seem to me to be nonsense.

 

In many places spanking is illegal and there is not an upsurge of delinquency as a result.

 

I know the die-hard spankers may not be able to understand this, but it is absurdly possible to raise well-behaved, polite, kind, caring, non-violent children not only without spanking but without any kind of punishment whatsoever.

 

That being the case, why spank? There is no good reason to do so. Perhaps the only reason left is that the spanker wants to use this means of child-control. Maybe all the spankings inflicted upon him/her in childhood didn't 'do no harm' after all.

 

 

I spank. However, I would like to know exactly how your approach works because I would like to be anti-spanking. For myself. I hate spanking my chidlren. We are very disciplined about it> Stand still put your hands on something (to counteract the normal response of covering your butt with your hand and when you hit a hand with a wooden spoon it hurts) and do not arch your back as this causes the spank to hit your back. Only your butt is cushioned enough to take a spank. It is only for 5 times max mainly 2 to 3 and must sting not hurt. It is not a blow it is a pop, like you do with a rolled up towel, with a flick of the wrist not a follow through swing. They have small backs and you must not make a child's body move with a spank. It is a hit if you are making their body move.

Now, to get to this point of them standing still for a spank takes effort of the parent. You must discuss spankings and what constitutes one versus going to your room, sitting on the hearth or standing by my hip and walking side by side with me before you spank them. And that starts when they can understand you. At around 18months to 2 yr old. I do not believe in spanking a child under 18mon because you can pick them up and remove them from what ever they are doing, and they want you to talk to them so you talk. you point you explain why it is a no no. If they are of a rebellious bent then maybe a little pop on the back of the hand, enough to sting and break their concentration.

And always follow any correction with encouragement to do better, how much you love them and that you understand about making mistakes. This should come within 10 minutes of all discipline. Hugs, kisses all around.

 

Spanking are for deliberate defiance, anything that would put the child in danger or the deliberate hurting of someone else. Because I can't charge them with assault like real life. Nor can I throw them out because they don't obey and I can't lock them up in a cage to keep them safe.

I also take the time to train my children. I have practice obedience training sessions of about 10 to 15 minutes occasionally. I have special sentence or command. Mine is "Come to Me" Just those three words. But they immediately respond because I have trained them. We practice by standing accross the room and I tell them to play with something and then say "come to me" and they are to drop what they are doing and run to me. I pick them up smother them in kisses and say how great that was. And we do it about 15 more times varying what activity they are doing, TV, reading riding their bike etc.... But if they do not come immediately, I spank them right then. One time on the butt. To demonsatrate which behavior is rewarding with all the love and which one gets the spank. When I first heard of this I was amazed at how it worked. And in public places when they may run ahead or get out of my site, all I have to do is call out my signal sentence and here they come, calm and wondering what I need. they are ready to listen to instruction because of the training has taught them I am happy with them to come straight to me. This stops most problems in public.

 

But like I said. If you can give better step by step alternatives and situations to use them, let me know. I want to know.

Edited November 15, 2008 by sunshine

[LisaNY]

:iagree:

 

Abuse is abuse, whether physical or mental, direct or indirect, concrete or abstract it is entirely different and unrelated to a punishment given for knowingly breaking the rules.

 

Exactly!

[Pamela H in Texas]

Spanking are for deliberate defiance, anything that would put the child in danger or the deliberate hurting of someone else.

 

Can you give situations? I'll try my best to give generalities in the meantime:

 

When they were very young, we just "helped" them comply so they knew they just had to either on their own or with help but regardless they were minding. As they got older, they could petition not to mind (such as "may I finish this chapter first?"). If they "forget" something, they go back and do it, giving up whatever they are doing. They must do their chores, schoolwork, whatever told before doing anything else (computer, games, outside, etc).

 

As for danger. I consider keeping kids safe a parent's job. I feel it's unfair to spank a child for running out into the street when they just shouldn't have been allowed to get there in the first place, for example. If anyone should be spanked it's the parent that let a 2yo near the street. Of course, we did things, like set boundaries and such to make things easier. I also didn't worry about things that had "okay" natural consequences (obviously you wouldn't allow a kid to get run over by a car but I wouldn't try to head off every scrape or bruise).

 

I am WAY against spanking for hurting someone else. To me it's ridiculous to hit a child for hitting, for example. It makes no sense to act like an undisciplined toddler yourself, imo. Instead, you teach the kiddo how TO handle the situation better for next time. Also, it is always nice to have them apologize and possibly do something else extra nice (esp in the case of siblings).

[sunshine]

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Enough said

 

Can you give situations? I'll try my best to give generalities in the meantime:

 

When they were very young, we just "helped" them comply so they knew they just had to either on their own or with help but regardless they were minding. As they got older, they could petition not to mind (such as "may I finish this chapter first?"). If they "forget" something, they go back and do it, giving up whatever they are doing. They must do their chores, schoolwork, whatever told before doing anything else (computer, games, outside, etc).

 

As for danger. I consider keeping kids safe a parent's job. I feel it's unfair to spank a child for running out into the street when they just shouldn't have been allowed to get there in the first place, for example. If anyone should be spanked it's the parent that let a 2yo near the street. Of course, we did things, like set boundaries and such to make things easier. I also didn't worry about things that had "okay" natural consequences (obviously you wouldn't allow a kid to get run over by a car but I wouldn't try to head off every scrape or bruise).

 

I am WAY against spanking for hurting someone else. To me it's ridiculous to hit a child for hitting, for example. It makes no sense to act like an undisciplined toddler yourself, imo. Instead, you teach the kiddo how TO handle the situation better for next time. Also, it is always nice to have them apologize and possibly do something else extra nice (esp in the case of siblings).

 

 

I do not spank a 2 yr old for running int he street. Ideally that would not happen, but as in every situation you have exceptions. And most parents don't ALLOW their children to run out into the road. It is ususally a tragic accident and I would never blame the parent unless it was shown it was deliberate neglect. We are all humans and capable of failing at some small point with huge ramifications.

 

Dangerous activities resulting from deliberate defiance. Example: Do not put the scissors in the socket. If you do not have a child like this you will not understand, I didn't until the Lord said here you go Ms. Perfect parent, you say that you would never do that because you don't have a child who looks at you and staring you in the eyes continues to do the exact thing that you just patiently explained with all the love and sternness you can put in one face why that will make your hand turn black, and after you put him time out, in her room for 5 minutes (according to age) and show her on the internet pictures of hurt hands with electrical burns. Yes, she gets a big fat pop. And then with this child the light goes on. Because I will pop her but before I take her to the hospital and explain that I was just letting natural consequences happen because of continued defiance. No, a spank is better than the burn unit. And yes there are scissors available in our home because six is old enough and she can remove the safety caps. Don't climb up on the roof. POP. don't hang on the garage door as it goes up, POP. on the butt. This particular child has gotten more pops in her short life than all my other kids, biological and not put together. Reasoning works with one where a rebellious spirit is deeply ingrained in another. And I deserve her because I was anti-spanking for the first 5 years of my son's life. I worked for a child pysciatrist for many years and thought that I knew better ways. and I do. and I use them alot. BUT, sometimes you get POPPED in this house. Because I was put here to teach them, not them to show me why it is okay to do the exact opposite of what I say.

 

Read above for indications of why the spank for hurting someone else applies. If you hurt someone, you cannot expect to not feel a little pain too. If you know all you are going to get is a talking to and made to say I am sorry, then there is not a whole lotta motivation to quit. and you can't have them arrested for assault which is what would happen in real life.

Kids don't really have compassion automatically, it is something that in most cases must be taught. If pain is a result of hurting someone then you have a pretty good motivation to stop. Most people will not repeat an action that causes them pain. basic psychology. So it usually only has to be taught once or twice. Not repeatedly, like the talking to or time out.

And I assure you that the parents I know who follow the To Train Up A Child mode of thinking, they do not act like a toddler when disciplining their children, they do it with deliberate kindness and love, with a smile or slight face of disappointment. Not the out of control lashing out of a toddler. I would be against that also. And I find it ridiculous to use the word ridiculous when exchanging ideas with each other.

Edited November 15, 2008 by sunshine
my spelling is atrocious

[DB in NJ]

I would like to offer a public thanks to my parents for every single time they spanked me. My father believes in the belt and you can be sure it left a mark.

 

I was spanked for:

lying; rudeness; poor grades; violating the rules of the household; hurting my younger siblings; doing anything that was dishonorable and laziness.

 

I learned many of life's lessons through this and no matter how much it hurt I never felt that it was done unfairly. Following the punishment I was always given a hug and reminded that I was loved.

 

My father never told me "this is going to hurt me more than you," but even at a young age I could tell that it hurt him to spank.

 

It seems to me that a lot of today's children could do with a spanking once in a while.

 

One poster stated,

 

 

 

 

I do not see how this works. I can not fire my child, make him homeless, send him to prison or any of the other consequences of misbehavior in "real life." Obviously I would never want to, but these are real life consequences.

 

Spanking DOES "promote a true understanding of the world. " It demonstrates that there are consequences for actions and that they can be painful.

 

I only think back to my childhood, once we moved to the States. In PS I ran into many boys whose parents would never spank them. Indeed I heard the snide comment about "I would sue them."

 

I was a little younger than the other boys in my class and subject to bullying. My main tormentor was one of these boys. Despite being talked to about his behavior (by his parents) he continued. Had his parents spanked him for his behavior, it might have stopped as the application of pain is a great behavioral modifier. Eventually, in a fight, I broke his nose and it was this application of pain that led him to leave me alone. I blame his parents and their "enlightened" view for the tyrant that their child became.

 

I know far far more children who were ruined by refusal of their parents to spank than were ever hurt by excessive punishment.

 

:iagree: Gah, where is that dern rep button anyway??? :glare:

[DB in NJ]

I'm against spanking, but I don't believe that it qualifies as reportable abuse.

 

I'm *more* against the parenting approaches that consider spanking training and suggest spanking as primary (and usually frequent) discipline.

 

I am wholeheartedly against thinking punishment and discipline and training are synomymous.

 

While I don't believe "a spanking" is reportable, I do believe that frequent spanking creates a hostile, angry awful environment for a child.

 

I do believe that spanking infants is *always and without question* abuse.

 

I do believe that spanking older children is *always and without question* abuse.

 

I believe the above 2 are *always and without question* poor parenting.

 

I like in a state where spanking is assumed, where a school district nearby still spanks, where "spanking" with a belt is expected. I believe it compromises quality parenting. In general, I think our children are over punished and under disciplined.

 

Wow. Aren't you the one who always chides others for making such broad, sweeping, insulting comments?

[bumbledeb]

I do not spank a 2 yr old for running int he street. Ideally that would not happen, but as in every situation you have exceptions. And most parents don't ALLOW their children to run out into the road. It is ususally a tragic accident and I would never blame the parent unless it was shown it was deliberate neglect. We are all humans and capable of failing at some small point with huge ramifications.

 

Dangerous activities resulting from deliberate defiance. Example: Do not put the scissors in the socket. If you do not have a child like this you will not understand, I didn't until the Lord said here you go Ms. Perfect parent, you say that you would never do that because you don't have a child who looks at you and staring you in the eyes continues to do the exact thing that you just patiently explained with all the love and sternness you can put in one face why that will make your hand turn black, and after you put him time out, in her room for 5 minutes (according to age) and show her on the internet pictures of hurt hands with electrical burns. Yes, she gets a big fat pop. And then with this child the light goes on. Because I will pop her but before I take her to the hospital and explain that I was just letting natural consequences happen because of continued defiance. No, a spank is better than the burn unit. And yes there are scissors available in our home because six is old enough and she can remove the safety caps. Don't climb up on the roof. POP. don't hang on the garage door as it goes up, POP. on the butt. This particular child has gotten more pops in her short life than all my other kids, biological and not put together. Reasoning works with one where a rebellious spirit is deeply ingrained in another. And I deserve her because I was anti-spanking for the first 5 years of my son's life. I worked for a child pysciatrist for many years and thought that I knew better ways. and I do. and I use them alot. BUT, sometimes you get POPPED in this house. Because I was put here to teach them, not them to show me why it is okay to do the exact opposite of what I say.

 

Read above for indications of why the spank for hurting someone else applies. If you hurt someone, you cannot expect to not feel a little pain too. If you know all you are going to get is a talking to and made to say I am sorry, then there is not a whole lotta motivation to quit. and you can't have them arrested for assault which is what would happen in real life.

Kids don't really have compassion automatically, it is something that in most cases must be taught. If pain is a result of hurting someone then you have a pretty good motivation to stop. Most people will not repeat an action that causes them pain. basic psychology. So it usually only has to be taught once or twice. Not repeatedly, like the talking to or time out.

And I assure you that the parents I know who follow the To Train Up A Child mode of thinking, they do not act like a toddler when disciplining their children, they do it with deliberate kindness and love, with a smile or slight face of disappointment. Not the out of control lashing out of a toddler. I would be against that also. And I find it ridiculous to use the word ridiculous when exchanging ideas with each other.

 

Can you clarify something here? Are you saying you have a six-year-old who would put scissors in an electrical outlet unless you spanked her?

[Pamela H in Texas]

I didn't until the Lord said here you go Ms. Perfect parent

 

I learned how to parent better because I got a tougher kiddo where spanking and punishment not only didn't work but caused more problems. I had to learn better discipline because I still only had the same 16-21 years with this kiddo that everyone else has but had a lot more obstacles to overcome. This child NEEDED better discipline. So many people assume that those of us that learn better must have easy kids. If we had easy kids, we never would have spent SO much time and effort into learning better. We wouldn't have had a reason to because the ways everyone use would work. Instead, we learned better because we had to in order to help this kiddo make it to adulthood and then to end up being a happy, healthy, contributing member of the family, society, and congregation.

 

ETA: This is not to say I believed in doing "whatever" before. I wanted to be a better parent than my father so I had tried to learn ways so as not to be angry, punish in harsh ways, etc. And I believe in parents aiming to become better and better, but mostly I was happy enough with what I had learned and only did SIGNIFICANTLY better because my kid required me to learn to do so.

 

Surely you understand that I had to use generalities and overused examples as you didn't give any specifics. I just had to pull SOMETHING out of thin air :) I addressed some of what you said in my original post (such as allowing certain natural consequences but not others for obvious reasons). Your post suggests you are happy enough with your choices and not really interested in learning differently, possibly not believing there is better. That, of course, is your right.

 

One thing though? From childcare, fostering, and parent coaching, I have noticed that people tend to teach their kids to up the anty. They inadvertantly teach their kids to listen only once they get to 3, a certain decible level, a spank. They also accidentally teach their kids that milder forms of discipline are a joke. You can back up and unteach those things though.

Edited November 15, 2008 by 2J5M9K

[Joanne]

I do not spank a 2 yr old for running int he street

 

Dangerous activities resulting from deliberate defiance. Read above for indications of why the spank for hurting someone else applies.

 

If you hurt someone, you cannot expect to not feel a little pain too. If you know all you are going to get is a talking to and made to say I am sorry, then there is not a whole lotta motivation to quit. and you can't have them arrested for assault which is what would happen in real life.

Kids don't really have compassion automatically, it is something that in most cases must be taught. If pain is a result of hurting someone then you have a pretty good motivation to stop. Most people will not repeat an action that causes them pain. basic psychology. So it usually only has to be taught once or twice. Not repeatedly, like the talking to or time out.

And I assure you that the parents I know who follow the To Train Up A Child mode of thinking, they do not act like a toddler when disciplining their children, they do it with deliberate kindness and love, with a smile or slight face of disappointment. Not the out of control lashing out of a toddler. I would be against that also. And I find it ridiculous to use the word ridiculous when exchanging ideas with each other.

 

This is an example of a parenting perspective that is the polar opposite of what I believe. I am not talking about spanking or not. I am talking about the adversarial assumptions and the inaacurate assumptions that a child who hits peers will grow into a adult or older child who assaults. This is completely against my experience and observation. most kids hit at some point;most never assault as adults. Whether they were spanked, timed out or even passively parented (not that I recommend that).

 

As far as spanking for safety, the truth is that you can't punish a child enough to make them responsible for their own safety. If you,ve got kids young enough that streets and scissors are an issue,vigilence, prayer and quick parental feet are the best parenting.

[momtoboys]

Okay, I will come right out and say I think that *some* spanking can be abuse.

 

This would include (to me)

 

1. Spanking for unreasonable offenses (you spilled a glass of milk).

2. Spankings that are more like beatings (and leave significant marks/bruises)

3. Spankings done in anger.

4. Spankings w/ pants down at an older age.

 

Not all spanking is abuse. The above (imo) is.

 

Spanking as abuse is usually combined w/ other forms of abuse such as emotional and verbal abuse.

 

If you live in a household that combines the types of "spanking" mentioned above w/ other forms of abuse, you might be better off in foster care. That's all I'll say on the subject for now.

[Pamela H in Texas]

streets and scissors are an issue,vigilence, prayer and quick parental feet are the best parenting.

 

Well, and if you're disabled as *I* was with 5 young children (2 special needs), you put in place a lot of prevention. You can't prevent EVERYTHING but you can prevent a whole lot more than most able-bodied parents do. Like Joanne said, you just can't punish a child enough to make them safe and by doing so means you dropped the ball in the first place. It only takes ONCE for a child to be seriously injured or killed. You really don't want to take that risk with a safety issue.

 

So I guess I was blessed with a tough kiddo AND disability in order to learn different :)

[Kim in Appalachia]

I think it's important to make a distinction between bad parenting and abuse. I truly hate it when people throw around volatile language for behaviors that, while harmful or unwise, do not constitute reportable abuse. Doing so really does minimize the suffering of those who have experienced true abuse.

 

Forced or coerced sexual activity is always abusive, as is any sexual behavior with/towards a minor.

 

Routine physical violence is abusive, as is excessive physical violence. By violence, I do mean more than a spanking.

 

Depriving a child of food or water routinely to the point of malnourishment or starvation. This is different from depriving a child of one meal as a form of discipline.

 

It is a hard thing to define because there is such a range and variety of behaviors that can be defined as abusive. A control freak can actually make life completely miserable for his/her family, in a way that I would consider abusive, but not cross the line into reportable abuse. Those are such hard cases, as everyone knows the situation is not right, but it's not wrong enough for the government to intervene.

 

:iagree:

 

True abuse is awful, and needs intervention. It is unfair to equate spanking, or any other discipline as abuse (I've heard people say time outs are abusive). It is better to focus resources on true abuse and neglect.

[Joanne]

Wow. Aren't you the one who always chides others for making such broad, sweeping, insulting comments?

 

I believe spanking infants is always abuse.I think that is a reasonable perspective.

 

The OP talked about "spanking" much older children, even adult! That is not only abuse but sick and unhealthy.

 

I do not understand how that is unsulting.

 

If you read the rest of my post, you'll see that I do NOT support generalizations about parents who spank or not.I don't consider the extremes in the OP spanking.And I do not believe spanking equals abuse.