8 top private DC high schools drop APs

[alewife]

28 minutes ago, Lanny said:

 

The night we attended the School Fair in Bogota (May 3, 2018) 4 schools (Duke, Harvard, Georgetown and Penn)   had sent Admission Reps to that presentation.

They explained many things that they look at, when considering an applicant.  Rigor of the school was one thing. Rigor of the courses was another thing.

I got the impression that they look at SAT and ACT scores, but know that a student may have had a bad day when they took the examination and those tests are not their highest priority.

I don't think they had much interest in AP courses or would allow college/university credit for them.

My guess is that DE courses taken in a College or University would be considered much more favorably than AP courses taken in a High School. 

Having gone through the recruiting process with Ivy League schools, in our experience, the SAT and ACT scores are the top priority followed by gpa and transcript rigor.  If the SAT scores are not at a certain level, there are no further discussions and admissions doesn't  even want to see a transcript.  

The admissions officer at our local community college advises students who are planning on applying to highly selective out of state schools to go the AP route rather than the cc route because the quality of cc varies widely across the country, while an adcom has some idea of the level of knowledge acquired if the applicant has a 5 on a AP exam since the AP scores are standardized.

[alewife]

3 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I don't think anyone is arguing for not studying subjects at a high level. I think the issue is whether it is the subject matter or the AP course that is important. For example, back when AoPS cal  was not CB approved, was it more valuable to take an AP approved course or master calculus at a high level? 

I know that it is even possible to teach courses at home at a high level completely disconnected from APs and have kids thrive at college.

The two are not mutually exclusive.  Many students who take the AoPS class also sit for the AP exam so they can prove that the calculus was mastered.  The AP designation itself on the course is not important (unless a student is in a school setting where they have to worry about a weighted gpa).  The exam score is what the adcoms look at.  

[swimmermom3]

6 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I think there is a huge difference between no standardized test scores and no APs.  I don't know of any school where homeschoolers can apply test optional, so SAT/ACT scores are pretty much a given.  I think that those scores carry FAR more weight than most of us recognize.  

FWIW, I don't think it is a **huge risk** to apply without APs.  Is it **a** risk?  Maybe.  It depends on the school.  For the vast majority of schools, I don't think it is a risk as long as the student has SAT/ACT scores in the mid-50% range for the school and the student has a transcript demonstrating all their required courses for admission have been taken.  Having students take 2 subject tests can cover other bases as well.  (Some schools even give college credit for certain subject test scores.)

My kids have taken a grand total of 3 APs. Youngest ds took 2 and oldest dd took 1.  My kids in general have taken a mixture of either none, 1 or 2, or quite a few DE courses, depending on the individual and what they wanted to do.  Most of their courses have not been outsourced.  My older kids had their ACT scores and 1 or 2 outside classes.  My current college kid had 1 subject outsourced, 2 subject test scores, 1 SAT score (she only took it once), no AP courses at all, and 1 DE course spring of sr  yr.  Almost all of her courses were done at home.  She was accepted everywhere, including Rochester. (and no, I do not believe Russian which was taught by an outside teacher somehow erased all doubts about all coursework completed at home.  I think her SAT and subject test scores did.)

 

So you still need standardized scores, right? I don't think anyone was saying that AP scores alone validated a homeschool transcript. Sailor Dude's transcript grades are supported by his ACT, AP, and SAT Subject tests, as well as his university's placement exam for math and Spanish. I doubt they were surprised by the student they received. Just his mother was surprised!

I am not sure the ACT is any better of an indicator regarding preparation to do college work. Ds brought his composite up 5 points by drill and kill. I am still irked to this day about the educational time lost, but am really happy for the scholarship money.

[alewife]

6 hours ago, yvonne said:

Exactly. And because those particular schools have been so successful with the courses they offer, they've established a very strong reputation with the more academically "elite" colleges. I would bet that their curriculum is at a high enough level that their students will still take the AP exams and will still do just as well on those exams.

There's nothing magical about an AP-approved course, as evidenced by the vast numbers of students who receive a 1 or 2 when they take the exam and, on the flip side, by the students who self-study for AP exams, without an officially AP-approved course, and receive a 4 or 5 on the exam.  I'm all for solid, true college-prep level English, foreign language, history, and other courses, regardless of whether they have an "AP-approved" label or not. In fact, I'd prefer a non-AP courses in those subjects because they aren't limited to the College Board's restrictions on what content is included.

People see what they want in these headlines. Some will see schools with such strong academic programs and diligent students that they can drop AP-approved courses and still do well on the AP exams. Others will jump on it as a rationale for why their school/students don't need AP courses, why their school & classes are just as good as any AP course, ignoring (or covering) the fact that their courses are not nearly at the same level as the courses at some of these elite, private schools.

 

In addition to Yvonne's points, another is that many of these elite private schools also have guidance counselors that used to work in the admissions offices at the same highly selective schools that their current students are hoping to gain admittance to.    Outside validation becomes less necessary when the high school guidance counselor and the college admissions officers are former colleagues.  

[8filltheheart]

1 minute ago, alewife said:

The two are not mutually exclusive.  Many students who take the AoPS class also sit for the AP exam so they can prove that the calculus was mastered.  The AP designation itself on the course is not important (unless a student is in a school setting where they have to worry about a weighted gpa).  The exam score is what the adcoms look at.  

Actually, students don't have to report AP scores for admission.  That is one of the huge issues with AP course grades and not passing the AP tests and still getting the "most rigorous" rating.  APs give the GPA boost regardless of AP test score. That is one of the forces driving the AP treadmill in schools....GPA/ranking boost.

But, my point is that the AP course isn't what is important.  It is the subject matter.  AoPS didn't need to be an AP course to be a course focused on high levels of mastery. 

1 minute ago, swimmermom3 said:

So you still need standardized scores, right? I don't think anyone was saying that AP scores alone validated a homeschool transcript. Sailor Dude's transcript grades are supported by his ACT, AP, and SAT Subject tests, as well as his university's placement exam for math and Spanish. I doubt they were surprised by the student they received. Just his mother was surprised!

I am not sure the ACT is any better of an indicator regarding preparation to do college work. Ds brought his composite up 5 points by drill and kill. I am still irked to this day about the educational time lost, but am really happy for the scholarship money.

I am not pro-testing in any format.  But, for the most part there is no way to avoid testing in this country unless you attend a CC and transfer with an associates or attend a school and apply to test optional schools.

I never said anyone says that AP scores alone validate a homeschool transcript.  I am saying a lot of people believe you have to validate a homeschool transcript via outsourced courses or APs.  I don't. 

[alewife]

18 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Actually, students don't have to report AP scores for admission.  That is one of the huge issues with AP course grades and not passing the AP tests and still getting the "most rigorous" rating.  APs give the GPA boost regardless of AP test score. That is one of the forces driving the AP treadmill in schools....GPA/ranking boost.

But, my point is that the AP course isn't what is important.  It is the subject matter.  AoPS didn't need to be an AP course to be a course focused on high levels of mastery. 

I am not pro-testing in any format.  But, for the most part there is no way to avoid testing in this country unless you attend a CC and transfer with an associates or attend a school and apply to test optional schools.

I never said anyone says that AP scores alone validate a homeschool transcript.  I am saying a lot of people believe you have to validate a homeschool transcript via outsourced courses or APs.  I don't. 

I doubt that students who choose not to report their AP scores fare very well in admissions at schools that have holistic admissions.  I don't think that the "most rigorous" rating carries much weight without the AP exams scores to back it up.  A guidance counselor at my public high school once told a friend of mine's child not to waste his (guidance counselor's) time by applying to an Ivy League college since no one in the history of the school has ever been accepted to one.  These kids have the "most rigorous" rating on their transcripts, but have mostly 1's and 2's on their AP exams.

I agree with you that the AP course isn't what is important - that it is the content that matters.  However, as homeschoolers, we have to prove in some manner that the content has been mastered.  AP exams can provide an easy way prove that mastery at the schools where mastery of this material is important.  

[swimmermom3]

43 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Actually, students don't have to report AP scores for admission.  That is one of the huge issues with AP course grades and not passing the AP tests and still getting the "most rigorous" rating.  APs give the GPA boost regardless of AP test score. That is one of the forces driving the AP treadmill in schools....GPA/ranking boost.

But, my point is that the AP course isn't what is important.  It is the subject matter.  AoPS didn't need to be an AP course to be a course focused on high levels of mastery. 

I am not pro-testing in any format.  But, for the most part there is no way to avoid testing in this country unless you attend a CC and transfer with an associates or attend a school and apply to test optional schools.

I never said anyone says that AP scores alone validate a homeschool transcript.  I am saying a lot of people believe you have to validate a homeschool transcript via outsourced courses or APs.  I don't. 

Agreed to the first sentence in bold.

But the second sentence brings us back to my earlier question to you? Wait, never mind. I see that you are very specific with mentioning APs, but somehow ACTs, SATs, SAT Subjects, and CLEP are different, because they don't follow a specific format?

[swimmermom3]

4 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

Many, many colleges aren't giving credit for AP's anyway...

I think this is a great step forward.

I think that statement depends on how you define "giving credit."

Do you get out early? Most, of the time, no? Is there an advantage to taking the course (or nay kind of advanced work), yes! All linked schools offer some kind of advantage for scoring well on the AP exam. CalTech is the only "no AP" school listed.

Princeton

Harvard – 5s only, must activate Advanced Standing with 32 credits

University of Chicago – credit for placement exams or AP at end of first year – if I understand correctly

Columbia

Yale

MIT – credit for a 5 on some exams

Stanford

University of Penn – awards some credit for AP, no credit (placement only) for DE in secondary

Duke

California Institute of Technology – does not accept AP credits. You take placement for math and physics (may earn credit in doing so)

Dartmouth – credit may be awarded but will not count towards the 35 credits for graduation

Johns Hopkins – credit and placement for science, math and macro and micro with diagnostic exam

Northwestern – credits awarded depend on various schools

Brown – will not increase your total credits: however,

 

“AP course equivalency policies are determined by academic departments. Some departments allow automatic transcript notation of AP credit(s) on the sole basis of qualifying AP test scores, while others allow AP credit(s) retroactively, upon successful completion of one of their advanced courses. Still other departments have policies that grant no AP credits whatsoever. Pertinent policies for each department are detailed at the bottom of this page.”

 

Cornell – credit for mostly science, math, and languages – Eng. Lang. and Lit. dependent on college

Rice

Georgetown – yes, dependent upon school

[GoodGrief]

Not going to quote any posts, but just contributing to the ongoing conversation:

I don't personally know of any homeschoolers who received high level (full ride/full tuition) scholarships from colleges without some sort of external validation of their educational path, be it NMF via the PSAT program, high ACT/SAT results, high level awards from state/national/international competitions, excellent grades in dual enrollment, CLEP scores, or excellent SAT subject tests/AP scores. Not saying it never happens, but it's relatively uncommon. IME. Of course, no one absolutely has to take AP exams. But it's one means of assisting schools and scholarship programs in their attempt to compare apples to oranges. Some prefer other means of validation, and that is fine.

One of mine did minimal testing: one SAT and a year of dual enrollment (which was her decision, not mine. I would have preferred avoiding the dual enrollment, though it turned out to benefit her in the end). One of mine started with APs and various tests in 9th grade. The students had vastly different personalities and challenges, and I'm not sure what I would change if I could go back in time. But the second did have many more choices and opportunities at the end of the college app cycle.

I agree that the decision of the schools in the article is likely to have little impact on the reality of education for students in the typical public school that want to stand out from the crowd. Colleges are very familiar with the curricular options at those elite schools. It would be impossible for them to intimately know what goes on in any given high school (or homeschool) across the country.

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I never said anyone says that AP scores alone validate a homeschool transcript.  I am saying a lot of people believe you have to validate a homeschool transcript via outsourced courses or APs.  I don't. 

You don't, but then everything is riding on the SAT/ACT score.

[alewife]

While Cal Tech doesn't grant any AP credit, it does require that its applicants  have taken calculus in high school.  I would be very surprised to find many admitted students without a 5 in BC Calculus on their transcript regardless of whether or not they took an official AP Calc BC class.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 6/19/2018 at 6:16 AM, yvonne said:

We were fortunate, also, in the AP classes we used. I do wish there were solid, college-prep level English courses out there for home schoolers that were not necessarily "AP approved" so that they could have focused on American Lit or Brit Lit or....

 

One if my kids did the Lukeion Muse classes. They were a great example of a class that didn't meet AP scope and sequence, but provided good learning.

He went on to do AP English with me.  He had already learned tons of rhetoric from the Muse and Latin courses. 

He wrote his long essay in The Odyssey.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

10 hours ago, swimmermom3 said:

This really makes me heartsick.

At our local high school, the choice for students isn't what I had thirty years ago: take the academically solid regular class or being ready to be challenged on a crazy-high level in the AP (only English at that time) or Honors classes. When my older kids went to the local high school, the choices past 10th grade were: AP or remedial. This really puts the average student in a tough bind and while I am not positive, I do think this is a result of marketing the status of AP.

While I will defend our use of AP classes because it made living a dream possible, I am all too aware of their shortcomings.

The larger picture of the high stakes standardized tests and the control they have on the education of this country is truly terrifying.

The choice of remedial vs AP is also driven by the educators who say that students learn more by taking AP than another level, even if they score a 1 or 2 on the exam.  

I personally would prefer that students were able to take high school level courses in high school and not feel strong armed into pushing on to college level before they are ready.

[Lilaclady]

I think a lot of valid ideas have been raised and like a lot of homeschooling, the decisions have to be what works for each individual family.

i think most of the schools listed can afford to do away with AP’s but not all homeschoolers can. Some will choose to take 8’s way and others will choose differently. 

For me, from reading the boards over the years, I realized that for most homeschoolers who have gotten into their top highly selective schools, they had taken a considerable number of AP’s and these include Kathy in richmond’s dc, Muttichen’s dc, good grief dd, Hoggirl’s ds and plansrme’s dd to name a few.

AP’s and dual enrollment have also allowed some Students to be able to finish in less time and go on to other things. 

I don’t think Clep can also be rightly compared to AP. Clep is just multiple choice which most AP’s have in addition to essays. The US history Ap really requires more deep thinking and knowledge than one needs to do well on the Clep test.  

[Janeway]

With my nieces, they found a lot of colleges won't take the AP credits anyway. With my nephews, one went to state university and they advised the students to not use the AP credits and if they insisted on using them anyway, there was a big limit on what could be used. With my other nephew, his small (sorry, that wouldn't be a nephew but rather a cousin, he was a cousin's son, so also a cousin) liberal arts school basically did not take AP credit. They got some credits but they did not apply toward specific classes and only allowed the student to start at a higher level if they wanted. But since all students stuck it out two years, they still took a full two years credit. And at my own son's classical school, they have been limiting how many AP classes they offer. They offer none in the area of history. I am unsure if they do in English.

[EKS]

Here is my argument for APs in a traditional school setting.  In many schools, they are the only advanced courses available.  The fact that they must conform to certain standards and a test at the end ensures a certain level of rigor.  I am sure that if there was no test to corroborate learning, in many cases over time the courses would get dumbed down. They are by far the best courses my son has taken at his well regarded public high school in terms of level and pace.

That said, if I had a choice between an AP course and a well done, high level, interdisciplinary course, I'd pick the latter.  I'm not as impressed with what passes for "collaboration" and "inquiry," which seem to me to mostly just serve as time wasters.

[8filltheheart]

33 minutes ago, Lilaclady said:

I think a lot of valid ideas have been raised and like a lot of homeschooling, the decisions have to be what works for each individual family.

i think most of the schools listed can afford to do away with AP’s but not all homeschoolers can. Some will choose to take 8’s way and others will choose differently. 

For me, from reading the boards over the years, I realized that for most homeschoolers who have gotten into their top highly selective schools, they had taken a considerable number of AP’s and these include Kathy in richmond’s dc, Muttichen’s dc, good grief dd, Hoggirl’s ds and plansrme’s dd to name a few.

AP’s and dual enrollment have also allowed some Students to be able to finish in less time and go on to other things. 

I don’t think Clep can also be rightly compared to AP. Clep is just multiple choice which most AP’s have in addition to essays. The US history Ap really requires more deep thinking and knowledge than one needs to do well on the Clep test.  

I agree with your post. Parents need to investigate the schools that match their students' goals. Students don't have to pursue the same path as highly selective school admissions if they aren't applying to top competitive schools. The vast majority of students are not pursuing elite admissions. 

My concern is toward the homeschoolers who believe that no transcript will be accepted without outsourced classes (which is false) or outside testing ( false depending on the schools being applied to. Some will want some subject test scores. Extremely competitive schools will want advanced courses and evidence of pursuit of high levels of something....that something is quite vague in definition.) But, the combination can fall across a wide spectrum of options. 

For example, many state flagships (depending on the state) are going to look at ACT/SAT scores and ensure courses listed on the transcript match admission requirements. That is all they really care about. They don't care about course descriptions, LOR, or ECs. 

Then there are a spectrum of schools where admissions will want those extras and maybe a couple of subject test scores. 

In terms of CLEP vs AP, the comparison isn't about the test bc obviously, yes, the exams are significantly different. It is about the credit. If a school publishes that it awards credit for a certain score on the CLEP exam, then there is zero difference between the credit awarded by the AP exam vs the CLEP exam. My dd received credit for biology, calculus, several histories,  macro/micro, English, etc. There is zero difference on her college transcript between her credits and students at USC who earned cr from IB exams or AP exams. They received cr for the same courses and the transcript simply reflects credit, not how earned.

[alewife]

1 hour ago, Lilaclady said:

I think a lot of valid ideas have been raised and like a lot of homeschooling, the decisions have to be what works for each individual family.

i think most of the schools listed can afford to do away with AP’s but not all homeschoolers can. Some will choose to take 8’s way and others will choose differently. 

For me, from reading the boards over the years, I realized that for most homeschoolers who have gotten into their top highly selective schools, they had taken a considerable number of AP’s and these include Kathy in richmond’s dc, Muttichen’s dc, good grief dd, Hoggirl’s ds and plansrme’s dd to name a few.

AP’s and dual enrollment have also allowed some Students to be able to finish in less time and go on to other things. 

I don’t think Clep can also be rightly compared to AP. Clep is just multiple choice which most AP’s have in addition to essays. The US history Ap really requires more deep thinking and knowledge than one needs to do well on the Clep test.  

I am not sure about the path good grief's homeschooled dd took regarding official AP classes, but Kathy in Richmond's kids and Muttichen's kids did not take official AP classes.  Muttichen's kids took their classes at community college, but still sat for the AP exam, and Kathy's kids had home-brewed classes and sat for the AP exams.  

There is a recent thread over on cc about this topic.  Some posters have said that even at some these private schools that have eliminated the AP classes over the last few years, the students will still sit for the AP exams.  I doubt that these schools would bother administering the AP exams if they didn't believe that AP scores help with admissions at the schools that are holistic in their evaluations.

[alewife]

This article was posted on CC.  Imo, this offers a plausible reason for the real motivation behind why these expensive private schools eliminated APs.

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/noteworthy

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

18 hours ago, Lanny said:

 

The night we attended the School Fair in Bogota (May 3, 2018) 4 schools (Duke, Harvard, Georgetown and Penn)   had sent Admission Reps to that presentation.

They explained many things that they look at, when considering an applicant.  Rigor of the school was one thing. Rigor of the courses was another thing.

I got the impression that they look at SAT and ACT scores, but know that a student may have had a bad day when they took the examination and those tests are not their highest priority.

I don't think they had much interest in AP courses or would allow college/university credit for them.

My guess is that DE courses taken in a College or University would be considered much more favorably than AP courses taken in a High School. 

 

I attended a similar presentation a couple years ago (Stanford, Penn, and 3 more schools of similar rank/status).

I would say they use test scores as a significant screener, especially for homeschool students.  However they look for trends and use the scores in bands.  A 1550 isn't automatically better than a 1500 or 1450.  However a 1250 probably has to have other reasons to say yes in the application. And certainly a 1600 doesn't make the student automatic admit.  

My son attends one if the schools from the presentation. It grants credit for AP sciences (with conditions), calculus, and languages.  If the 8 AP scores he has, he can get credit for 1 (which doesn't meet a major requirement but might help in a minor).  But I didn't get the opinion they looked down on AP or categorically  preferred DE.

My own kids had a number of outside quantified and qualified indicators for admissions to look at.  SAT, ACT, PSAT, Subject Tests, AP courses and scores, dual enrollment grades, National Latin Exam, grades from online providers.  They also had letters of recommendation and a detailed counselor package including transcript, course description, and school profile.  I can't point to what made schools accept them vs what was unnecessary. I wasn't in the room for the decision making and I don't know what the competition looked like.  

It's also worth saying that even with some really great acceptances, they also had rejections.  What made Carnegie Mellon say no when Purdue said yes?  What made Chicago, Michigan, and Washington U say no when Georgetown, Notre Dame and Stanford said yes? I have hunches on some of these but I'm never "in the room where it happens" so I can really only speculate and extrapolate.

I don't think AP courses are sniffed at,  but I don't think they are an only or best path either.  I think it also depends a lot on the kid and his or her goals.  And I have to be real.  I'm better at winging an AP English course than AP Econ and a science or math is beyond my competency. I'm not sure most online AP chemistry courses available to a homeschooled kid is a better choice than DE.  I am completely confident saying my English instruction or a Lukeion Adv Research Writing course is higher level than the English 100 composition course locally required as a first college English course.

I think this is a complicated topic with room for a lot of nuance for different situations.

[8filltheheart]

46 minutes ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

 

I attended a similar presentation a couple years ago (Stanford, Penn, and 3 more schools of similar rank/status).

I would say they use test scores as a significant screener, especially for homeschool students.  However they look for trends and use the scores in bands.  A 1550 isn't automatically better than a 1500 or 1450.  However a 1250 probably has to have other reasons to say yes in the application. And certainly a 1600 doesn't make the student automatic admit.  

My son attends one if the schools from the presentation. It grants credit for AP sciences (with conditions), calculus, and languages.  If the 8 AP scores he has, he can get credit for 1 (which doesn't meet a major requirement but might help in a minor).  But I didn't get the opinion they looked down on AP or categorically  preferred DE.

My own kids had a number of outside quantified and qualified indicators for admissions to look at.  SAT, ACT, PSAT, Subject Tests, AP courses and scores, dual enrollment grades, National Latin Exam, grades from online providers.  They also had letters of recommendation and a detailed counselor package including transcript, course description, and school profile.  I can't point to what made schools accept them vs what was unnecessary. I wasn't in the room for the decision making and I don't know what the competition looked like.  

It's also worth saying that even with some really great acceptances, they also had rejections.  What made Carnegie Mellon say no when Purdue said yes?  What made Chicago, Michigan, and Washington U say no when Georgetown, Notre Dame and Stanford said yes? I have hunches on some of these but I'm never "in the room where it happens" so I can really only speculate and extrapolate.

I don't think AP courses are sniffed at,  but I don't think they are an only or best path either.  I think it also depends a lot on the kid and his or her goals.  And I have to be real.  I'm better at winging an AP English course than AP Econ and a science or math is beyond my competency. I'm not sure most online AP chemistry courses available to a homeschooled kid is a better choice than DE.  I am completely confident saying my English instruction or a Lukeion Adv Research Writing course is higher level than the English 100 composition course locally required as a first college English course.

I think this is a complicated topic with room for a lot of nuance for different situations.

I agree.  

I think the premise that APs are the path to admissions is really more appropriately described as a path.  It is a complicated topic with nuances.

URochester is ranked what? Ok, I just looked, 34. My dd was accepted with no APs, 4 yrs of outsourced Russian (with numerous high level Russian awards), 2 yrs of working with a Francophone (not as a teacher, just someone to read literature and converse with), NLE (4 yrs), NMF, 2 subject test scores (Latin and math 2), and a high SAT score and a transcript of all at home, non-outsourced courses with the exception of Russian and statistics.

She had no real interest in UR bc we knew it would be unaffordable. I asked her to apply to see what would happen out of curiosity.  

That was her path.  What led to her acceptances at every school and being awarded top competitive scholarships?  I don't know positively bc I wasn't in the admissions office.  However, I do know definitively that her at home courses were not a problem.  Only Latin (via NLE and subject test), Russian (via winning competitions), and math (subject test) had any sort of outside validation.  But the acceptance did demonstrate to me that the path to admissions is friendly to homeschoolers who use homeschooling's unique opportunities to pursue unique academic pursuits and that following a typical AP path is not an absolute requirement.

**It does also take a willingness to accept that it may equally mean rejection.  There are no guarantees when it comes to competitive admissions.** Bc we can't afford elite schools anyway, for us it is not a real issue.  This approach, however, did not negatively impact being awarded high merit scholarships, either. 

(If a student doesn't have SAT/ACT scores for competitive admissions, then the entire conversation regarding APs for admissions purposes seems disconnected to me.   Your typical avg U is not going to require APs for admissions.)

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1 hour ago, alewife said:

This article was posted on CC.  Imo, this offers a plausible reason for the real motivation behind why these expensive private schools eliminated APs.

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/noteworthy

 

 

That is a good read and I don't think he's completely wrong on some of what drives their motivation. 

At the same time I think the schools aren't completely wrong that for them the AP course framework is restrictive.  

I find the AP English Language course description dense reading - and I have degrees in both English and Education.  The AP Euro History course guide has over 100 pages of chronological, thematic, and historical thinking skills items outlined, but doesn't include examples of what a successful essay response looms like (it is available elsewhere in limited quantities).

One of our favorite AP experiences was Comparative Government.  We did this during a two month cross country drive via reading packets of articles torn from The Economist and lots of discussions in the car and in restaurants.  My youngest won't have this experience, both because he won't have the same cross country car school and because no school in the state offers the exam.  

But also there is no AP Asian History course that digs into Asia in a way similar to Euro.  There isn't a comparative religion course.  

I also agree with the idea (from a previous poster) that many schools benefit from an outside framework and the test as goal.  Lots of schools would not offer robust college prep coursework for their most capable students without the AP carrot (especially the ability to tout the number of courses offered).  On the other hand my high schools had zero and one AP offerings respectively.  Yet they had very strong honors course offerings in broad content areas.  (In the 1980's)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

11 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I agree.  

I think the premise that APs are the path to admissions is really more appropriately described as a path.  It is a complicated topic with nuances.

URochester is ranked what? Ok, I just looked, 34. My dd was accepted with no APs, 4 yrs of outsourced Russian (with numerous high level Russian awards), 2 yrs of working with a Francophone (not as a teacher, just someone to read literature and converse with), NLE (4 yrs), NMF, 2 subject test scores (Latin and math 2), and a high SAT score and a transcript of all at home, non-outsourced courses with the exception of Russian and statistics.

She had no real interest in UR bc we knew it would be unaffordable. I asked her to apply to see what would happen out of curiosity.  (It was a simple application for her with only requiring a friend to write a LOR and Skype interview. )  

That was her path.  What led to her acceptances at every school and being awarded top competitive scholarships?  I don't know positively bc I wasn't in the admissions office.  However, I do know definitively that her at home courses were not a problem.  Only Latin (via NLE and subject test), Russian (via winning competitions), and math (subject test) had any sort of outside validation.  But the acceptance did demonstrate to me that the path to admissions is friendly to homeschoolers who use homeschooling's unique opportunities to pursue unique academic pursuits and that following a typical AP path is not an absolute requirement.

**It does also take a willingness to accept that it may equally mean rejection.  There are no guarantees when it comes to competitive admissions.** Bc we can't afford elite schools anyway, for us it is not a real issue.  This approach, however, did not negatively impact being awarded high merit scholarships, either. 

 

 

On the outside validation, I think a high SAT score might easily be taken as evidence of ability in English.  

I like your formula of it being A Path.  

I tend to talk up AP among homeschoolers simply because I want folks to know that it is an option, either through online courses, home brewed courses (that may or may not have the CB seal of approval), or through self-study with a test prep book (for example to prep for the Euro or US history test after doing a chronological study of history).

I also think families should be aware of the current state of education with respect to AP coursework.  None of my classmates could have graduated with more than one AP course.  The kids in my neighborhood who are graduating top in their class are often taking a half dozen or more.  (And this is at a school where around half the students don't meet math proficiency standards. Definitely some mixed signals to interpret.)

And to be honest, while this is a topic of concern for some homeschoolers, I know far more who are trying to figure out how  to get their kid through algebra 2 than who are trying to figure out how to take more AP courses.  I know several who are doing great work with DE and several others taking DE courses that are high school level equivalents  (Chemistry in Society or College Algebra) that wouldn't receive transfer credit at a high level university either.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This is another response to the schools' dropping AP.  I think he hits on some of the issues and concerns that people are discussing here.

I'm not as impressed with the 39,000 credit and $59 million in tuition over 10 years figures that College Board put out.  Averaged over 10 years and estimating 3 credits per course, those numbers get much smaller very quickly.  It is quite possible that the average student at these schools is only getting 3-12 credits that is applicable to their graduation/degree requirements.  He does have a point about the possibility that AP credit opens up options for picking courses (one of my kids started freshman year with all but one of his university's distribution requirements met through AP and DE, which is helpful because his military courses are all on top of what is already a challenging academic load for his major).  

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2018/06/20/disadvantages-no-longer-offering-ap-opinion

One direction I'd love to see the College Board head is to having a more open exam process.  Something that was closer in process to taking an SAT or Subject Test.  Through which students who want to use an AP exam to challenge the course could sit for an exam, even if their school didn't offer that course.  Maybe through having multiple exams proctored in the same room at the same time (like Subject Tests).

[SeaConquest]

For me, I am thinking of someone like Quark's son, who did mostly DE with his local CC and UC. (I believe he also did 2 APs -- Chem and Eng Lit). At Cal, the Chem AP through PAH, which we all know to be one of the best APs around, gets you nothing with the College of Letters. 

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/exam-credit/ap-credits/berkeley/index.html 

Had he instead taken the chem class via his [very good] local CC, he would have knocked out the chem requirement because of the articulation agreement in place. So, you spend $800 on an AP class only to not receive credit or $46/unit on a CC DE class that you are assured will count. Yes, perhaps it won't count at MIT or Cal Tech, but counting at Cal is no small thing. And perhaps the AP course with PAH is the better educational experience (depending on the rigor of the DE class), but some don't have the luxury of spending so much money for pure learning experiences. Quark's son was able to knock out a significant portion of his ugrad major and move quickly into grad level coursework because of DE. So, for people who may not qualify for need-based financial aid, or who may not be inclined to chase merit aid all over the country (like 8's kids and others have done), DE seems to me to provide a better bang for my buck -- at least as a Californian with the UC and CC system here.

[SeaConquest]

Also, if you live near a UC or CSU, look into cross-enrollment. You take a minimum number of credits at the CC and you can get a UC or CSU class for free.

http://registrar.ucsd.edu/ver2/info/CrossEnrollment.pdf

I think that most 4-year colleges would have a harder time not granting credit from a UC or CSU class vs a CC.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

Students already take AP exams without taking the course. Its quite common in high schools that won't offer enough seats in the few courses they offer (disparate impact policy) or enough courses & seats to meet demand.  The way its done here is to not offer any more than the minimum required-for-the-diploma high school classes ... for a non-remedial student that is 2.5 classes in 12th grade, which gives the student 5.5 study halls to use as he pleases. AP Econs, AP Chem,  and AP Euro are popular choices here for those who aren't rich enough to pay full freight for DE and buy the vehicle to transport themselves there. Those with a little more money take online courses on their own dime.   Far cheaper is to self study and test out at the college via the placement process. 

 

I realize that some students take AP exam without taking the course.  However I think that is very ad hoc and dependent on particular students, families, or counselors knowing how to work the system.  (It's also not totally new; I did something similar back in the dark ages when Cyndi Lauper was on the Top 40.)  

What I'd like to see changed is the way that students access the exams.  It doesn't do a student any good to use study hall for AP Econ, Chem or Euro if no school in the area offers the exam.  There is only one school in my county (one of the very expensive private schools) that offers the AP Euro exam (possibly only one in the state, possibly one on another island).  None offer Comparative Government.  

Testing out via the placement process is something that students should be aware of, though it might result in placement not credit and can lead to a student getting into harder/deeper classes faster than they are ready for as freshmen.  But that doesn't do anything to affect the application and acceptance process itself, which AP (and other paths to demonstrating interest and ability) can.

[SeaConquest]

8 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

DE is not open in all places; here it was restricted by age until very recently.  Even in 2013, my son wasn't able to take DE College Algebra at his high school due to age..that was resolved by letting underage students take the course for no credit, but it took several months for the appropriate people to work out.  I'm glad it did work out, because AP Calc is not granted credit in his engineering program, while DE Calc and JHU-CTY Calc are. 

As far as bang for the buck...it depends where you are.  DE at the high school is subsidized here, but few seats are open and few courses are offered.

We're at a point in time where people have to pick what state to live in to get appropriate academics without giving up their retirement funds.  CC here isn't much cheaper than U, DE is full pay if at the CC. 

 

 

We also have the issue of students being held back by age restrictions for DE at a lot of schools. Thankfully, CA does have the CHPSE, which lets you get around the restrictions, but my kid can't take the CHPSE early while remaining in his charter school (which he adores). I haven't found a charter school that will let him take the CHPSE in middle school, whereas if we homeschool independently (filing the PSA), we can do what we want. Unfortunately, in our area, the homeschool environment for a teen not enrolled in a charter school is virtually nonexistent at present, so we are kinda screwed. I have to choose between giving him what he needs socially vs what he needs academically.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

16 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

For me, I am thinking of someone like Quark's son, who did mostly DE with his local CC and UC. (I believe he also did 2 APs -- Chem and Eng Lit). At Cal, the Chem AP through PAH, which we all know to be one of the best APs around, gets you nothing with the College of Letters. 

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/exam-credit/ap-credits/berkeley/index.html 

Had he instead taken the chem class via his [very good] local CC, he would have knocked out the chem requirement because of the articulation agreement in place. So, you spend $800 on an AP class only to not receive credit or $46/unit on a CC DE class that you are assured will count. Yes, perhaps it won't count at MIT or Cal Tech, but counting at Cal is no small thing. And perhaps the AP course with PAH is the better educational experience (depending on the rigor of the DE class), but some don't have the luxury of spending so much money for pure learning experiences. Quark's son was able to knock out a significant portion of his ugrad major and move quickly into grad level coursework because of DE. So, for people who may not qualify for need-based financial aid, or who may not be inclined to chase merit aid all over the country (like 8's kids and others have done), DE seems to me to provide a better bang for my buck -- at least as a Californian with the UC and CC system here.

 

I think this is a significant qualifier.  It goes to know your student, know the goals, and realize that different colleges are different.

My kids could have had a similar outcome taking classes at Hawaii state community colleges and then transferring to one of the University of Hawaii campuses.  But at the time they were DE enrolled, there were 3 different Chemistry options (two surveys and a 2 semester college level General Chemistry).  Many of the homeschoolers I know take one of the single semester survey options.  But that may not meet degree requirements for STEM majors.  It would be more than fine for someone doing business or political science or Hawaiian Studies.  However there is also the issue of transfer to an out of state college.  Looking at UC Berkeley's transfer database, very few courses from any college in the UH system are listed (those are mostly in English).  That might simply reflect how few students go to Berkeley with Hawaii credits to evaluate.  

When I look at Purdue (picked simply because it's another public school that accepted one of my kids), several of the chemistry courses do transfer, but the course equivalence varies greatly.  I'm not confident that the DE counselors at the CC would steer high school students appropriately based on their end college goals.  [And having heard some parents talk about their kid taking "college math" when they are enrolled in sub-college level courses at the CC, I wonder if this is an instance where the students and families don't know what they don't know.]

The CC rates here are $130 per credit, so a 4 credit chem course (lecture plus lab) is more like $520 per semester.  So for my oldest we spent over $1000 for the 2 semester sequence (plus books, lab gear, and transportation).  He had a great chemistry experience.  Had some recommendations from his instructor, who is still someone they talk about (chem PhD, science collections diver, reserve Army musician and general solid dude and role model).  His course transferred to his 4 year college, which meant that he didn't have to take Chem as a freshman general engineering student.  That course is a notorious weed out course for engineers.  AP would have also fit the bill for his situation.  It might have cost less, but would have had less hands on lab experience and no person to write letters based on in person interactions. 

On the other hand, when we were still living in San Diego, several of the community colleges were not accepting high school students as DE students at all, because of crowding and being impacted with enrolled college students.  Had we stayed there, an online AP might have been the better choice.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

15 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

Schools aren't restricted on offering AP Exams.  What you have to do is declare intent very early in the academic year, so that all the paperwork and supervision is in place.  Ask too late, or do it where there is not enough funding to provide a person to supervise and you'll be denied.  You may lose out to weather anyway...this year's AP English here was a toughie as the exam place was moved due to tornado the night before and no power during the exam...so if you couldn't log on to the school website and find out where to go by start time, you were ool. 

What I think is the travesty is the lack of opportunity for middle class students. Plenty of schools here break state law and do not offer a full schedule of appropriate classes to compelled students. They are too underfunded to move students out of Regents and into AP, or to DE and there is no funding anyway for AP exams or DE courses for non urms who are on free/red lunch. 

 

 

The high school I can see from my house will not allow home schooled students to take AP exams.  

There is nothing from CB that keeps them from accommodating non-enrolled students, but they will not.

Nothing in  state law or policy prohibits them from accommodating homeschoolers.  But they will not.  

There is not requirement in this state that they offer an exam.  Not declaration of intent or paperwork will force their hand.  Were we still living in Virginia, it would be a very different discussion, both because the law is different and because the schools were more welcoming.

I cannot force a private school to offer an exam.  I might be able to convince one to offer an exam not connected to a course if I offered to pay the exam fee and the cost of proctoring.  So far I've found enough exams offered through the privates that the couple that aren't don't seem worth this effort.  But it is a shame, because I think Comp Gov is such a fun course.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

15 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

We also have the issue of students being held back by age restrictions for DE at a lot of schools. Thankfully, CA does have the CHPSE, which lets you get around the restrictions, but my kid can't take the CHPSE early while remaining in his charter school (which he adores). I haven't found a charter school that will let him take the CHPSE in middle school, whereas if we homeschool independently (filing the PSA), we can do what we want. Unfortunately, in our area, the homeschool environment for a teen not enrolled in a charter school is virtually nonexistent at present, so we are kinda screwed. I have to choose between giving him what he needs socially vs what he needs academically.

 

I definitely saw that when we lived in San Diego.  We would say that we homeschooled and the next question was almost always "What school are you at?"  It confused me for months before I realized it generally referred to which homeschool charter school we might be using.  I'm not sure most people I interacted with even realized that you could homeschool without a charter.  I know I got plenty of questions and funny responses.  (We were also independent.)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

In the same way that AP is not THE path to educational success, but A path that might be chosen; the educational options and decision making tree depend heavily on where you live.  

What might be a "no-brainer" in one area may well be a "non-starter" in another.  

ETA:  I remember one family that moved here from another state and was quite put out that their high school age sons couldn't find a way to continue in their sport, because the main competition leagues for that sport were through public or private schools.  As independent homeschoolers, they were not able to access those leagues.  I'm not sure they would have moved here had they realized that ahead of time.  

[8filltheheart]

1 minute ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

In the same way that AP is not THE path to educational success, but A path that might be chosen; the educational options and decision making depend heavily on where you live.  

What might be a "no-brainer" in one area may well be a "non-starter" in another.  

Agree.

And decisions may be completely different for different children.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

4 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Agree.

And decisions may be completely different for different children.

 

Isn't that the truth.  

I keep thinking that I know what I'm doing and then the youngest comes along and makes me think I don't know anything at all.  

[GoodGrief]

1 hour ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

What I'd like to see changed is the way that students access the exams.  It doesn't do a student any good to use study hall for AP Econ, Chem or Euro if no school in the area offers the exam.  There is only one school in my county (one of the very expensive private schools) that offers the AP Euro exam (possibly only one in the state, possibly one on another island).  None offer Comparative Government.  

Agreed. I've never understood the current system of having the exams tied to the schools. My daughter was actually unable to locate a local AP World History exam one year because the area schools had a system where they only offered it every other year. AP foreign language, music, and comp sci exam locations were exceptionally hard to locate too because of the nature of the setup for those. You would think the College Board would welcome the funds from additional test takers by making access simpler.

 

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

Schools aren't restricted on offering AP Exams.  What you have to do is declare intent very early in the academic year, so that all the paperwork and supervision is in place.  Ask too late, or do it where there is not enough funding to provide a person to supervise and you'll be denied.  You may lose out to weather anyway...this year's AP English here was a toughie as the exam place was moved due to tornado the night before and no power during the exam...so if you couldn't log on to the school website and find out where to go by start time, you were ool. 

Oh, it can be exceptionally difficult in some locations to access exam locations. I would always start asking in spring the year prior, but in the end it came down to the individual school and who at the school coordinated exams. Some were very accommodating, some not so much. Some did not want any notice until March, and were annoyed at early communications. My best luck came from one of the local public programs for homeschoolers. We were not enrolled, but they were often willing to do the exam. The problem there was that they tended to be a little flaky and you were never certain until test day that it would all be done correctly (daughter was supposed to take the PSAT there and arrived to find there were not enough exams, despite multiple previous communications. Luckily someone else did not show up.)

 

 

Someone up higher asked about whether my daughter actually took the AP classes. She did, with one exception. We could not locate an AP Chinese class, so she did the exam without the class. It was the only time she scored lower than a 5 on an exam. I do want to note that the bulk of her AP classes were not math or science, though she ultimately went on to study electrical engineering (and was awarded the Stamps scholarship at Ga Tech.) The only AP science was Biology, and only because we did not have a better local option. She did AP Calc AB with Derek Owens, but only because we liked him and it made sense for her to do that level of the class. She also did AP Comp Sci, which is math or science, depending on which school district you are asking. Her physics and chemistry were Apologia with a co-op lab class, her math through Alg 2 was Teaching Textbooks, and then she did dual enrollment for Calc 2 and 3 after Derek Owens.

My youngest is entering high school now, but not homeschooling. I'm not sure she will do AP classes. Different kid, different situation.

[swimmermom3]

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Schools aren't restricted on offering AP Exams.  What you have to do is declare intent very early in the academic year, so that all the paperwork and supervision is in place.  Ask too late, or do it where there is not enough funding to provide a person to supervise and you'll be denied.  You may lose out to weather anyway...this year's AP English here was a toughie as the exam place was moved due to tornado the night before and no power during the exam...so if you couldn't log on to the school website and find out where to go by start time, you were ool. 

What I think is the travesty is the lack of opportunity for middle class students. Plenty of schools here break state law and do not offer a full schedule of appropriate classes to compelled students. They are too underfunded to move students out of Regents and into AP, or to DE and there is no funding anyway for AP exams or DE courses for non urms who are on free/red lunch. 

 

I just can't "like" your posts on this thread. They are depressing the hell out of me, but as always, I am grateful that you share your experiences because I know I live in bubble when it comes to education in this area and I need to see the reality that many areas are facing.

Are you still teaching? Or is my memory shot?

[swimmermom3]

2 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

 

The high school I can see from my house will not allow home schooled students to take AP exams.  

There is nothing from CB that keeps them from accommodating non-enrolled students, but they will not.

Nothing in  state law or policy prohibits them from accommodating homeschoolers.  But they will not.  

There is not requirement in this state that they offer an exam.  Not declaration of intent or paperwork will force their hand.  Were we still living in Virginia, it would be a very different discussion, both because the law is different and because the schools were more welcoming.

I cannot force a private school to offer an exam.  I might be able to convince one to offer an exam not connected to a course if I offered to pay the exam fee and the cost of proctoring.  So far I've found enough exams offered through the privates that the couple that aren't don't seem worth this effort.  But it is a shame, because I think Comp Gov is such a fun course.

Ds took the AP English Lang. test (PA Homeschoolers) in 10th grade at our local high school. The following year I was informed that the district would no longer seat non-students. For 11th grade, they seated him for AP Biology because he took the class from them, but not for any of his other exams.  The next district over accommodated him for 11th and 12th grade, with the coordinator asking to know where ds decided to go to school. Another district accommodated him for Comparative Government. Sent grateful letters to them and a rather terse letter to my district.

I am still bitter about the experience and think the CB needs to do something about it, especially when they tout wide access.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

Can anyone on post/base/.. help you out ?  Perhaps they could negotiate with one of the Nat'l Math and Science Initiative high schools and ease the path for future military brats?

 

The school liaison was sympathetic and has offered to communicate my concerns to the complex superintendent.  I don't have much optimism there.

This same school took 7 months to return my notice if intent form.  I made repeated calls and was told they would get it right out.

The state tried to require criminal background checks of all adults living in a home before homeschooling would be approved.  It's not a state where the school plays well with homeschoolers.  They are quick to scapegoat based on homeschooling but have plenty of justification for the low academics in the state.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

Can anyone on post/base/.. help you out ?  Perhaps they could negotiate with one of the Nat'l Math and Science Initiative high schools and ease the path for future military brats?

I'm not familiar with the National Math and Science Initiative,  but ironically the school near my house is one of them.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

 

Is the local congressperson sympathetic to military?  That could be your in.

I think their point of view would be that if we want access to public school services we were free to enroll in public school.  This is a one party state  (as in last election there was a single state senator in the legislature from the other party). School choice here means a private school or maybe a charter school.  

[FairProspects]

Has it been mentioned yet that AP classes and number of students enrolled also boosts a high school's ranking for various measures? Whether or not students receive 1s and 2s on the actual exam is irrelevant, percentage of students simply enrolled is one of the criterion for awards. This is why the Bellevue School District in WA aggressively jumped into the AP game. The 8 schools dropping AP do not need to improve their rankings. They already have a lengthy reputation as some of the best schools in the nation. I don't disagree that often teacher or school designed courses are more challenging and valuable than AP classes, but this move is definitely at least partly about the admissions game and the fact that these schools can afford to opt out of that game on many levels.

[Arcadia]

“Does the Upper School offer AP courses?

Nueva's curriculum moves beyond the standard AP program, instead focusing on deeper intensive units, seminars, projects, upper-level Advanced Topics electives, and longer college-level research papers. While Nueva will not "teach to the tests," the curriculum certainly prepares students to take SAT II and AP tests with deep mastery of core concepts and intensive electives, and the expectation is that many students will take the tests. Nueva is already an approved site for AP testing, as many Middle School students take (and excel at) these exams every year.” http://www.nuevaschool.org/academics/upper-school/high-school-faq#does-the-upper-school-offer-ap-courses

So students are still encouraged to take the exams even though this private SF Bay Area K-12th school doesn’t offer AP courses. 

[MamaSprout]

22 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

I post because I know this district is a trend setter; I"ve often had people deride me as an outlier and then five years later they are telling me they have moved, as their district had adopted the same things and they found they could not accept the lowered academics or their child being totally ignored in the classroom.

I've advocated locally for all students for years, I'm not a district employee.  The funny thing is that since most of the middle class moved out, I know have random moms ask me if I am a teacher...kinda makes sense because the teachers are the only educated people left besides the lawyers and bankers.

 I am of course not effective, because I am a minority opinion. People really do not want all students to have an appropriate education, they see that as stealing resources from their child who already has a large remediation team as well as psych, medical and social support.  So far they have been willing to reinstate sports, but only for special needs and varsity/jv..they won't fund intramurals. I doubt academics at the level I had in a rural school or this district had before nclb will be reinstated in my lifetime..the future is dame school and private or homeschool if unwilling to give up the farm.

We live in a rural district with zero advanced or AP courses other than AP calc occasionally. There simply is no funding, even with a voter approved tax increase. Advanced courses are expected to be taken dual credit. 

[Roadrunner]

I do think APs are great as a nationally normed courses. Hopefully this benefits kids in some of the less fortunate districts.  While I am also not fan of College Board taking over schools, if it forces some districts to up the challenge level for interested kids, I am for AP. So private schools snubbing the nose because they can do better? Of course they can. I just hope we don’t end up in a race to now not only graduate kids with 15 APs, but another 10 post APs. What’s the point of college? And how did we get here? We used to value free time. 

[Nart]

47 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I do think APs are great as a nationally normed courses. Hopefully this benefits kids in some of the less fortunate districts.  While I am also not fan of College Board taking over schools, if it forces some districts to up the challenge level for interested kids, I am for AP. So private schools snubbing the nose because they can do better? Of course they can. 

 

Cynically, I wonder if these private schools aren't interested in nationally normed courses. These aren't run of the mill private schools- they are incredibly expensive and elite schools. If their students no longer take AP exams it becomes harder to compare these private school students to students in less fortunate districts who are forced to take 10 AP classes to be competitive. 

Tuition at some of these schools

St. Albans - $45,752 (plus new student non-refundable fee of $1850

Sidwell Friends- $40, 840 (plus $500 to $700 for books)

Potomac - $41,100

Landon -$42,110

 

 

 

[madteaparty]

4 hours ago, Nart said:

 

Cynically, I wonder if these private schools aren't interested in nationally normed courses. 

Of course, they’re private institutions. All my comments at least have to do with public schools that see these headlines and think they’re somehow in the same boat.

[alewife]

Some of the court documents in the lawsuit brought against Harvard have been released to the public.  In browsing through one of the documents while having my morning coffee, I found a section that discussed the academic rating of Asian Americans vs the rest of the applicant pool.  The report listed the following categories in the academic rating:

SAT score (ACT scores were converted to an SAT score)

GPA

Number of AP Exams Taken

Score on AP exams

This may explain why some of the elite private high schools still have their students sit for AP exams even though the schools no longer offer  the AP course.

http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Doc-414-Statement-of-Material-Facts.pdf

 

 

[MamaSprout]

I stumbled across this provider's opinion about APs and grades. His comments about AP are 2/3 of the way down the page. This goes back to 2010, but thought it was relevant because they aren't an expensive private school, just a homeschool course provider (Scholars Online). http://www.scholarsonline.org/Blog/?p=138

I'm not sure we would pursue AP if it were available. Dd has a good idea where she wants to go to college, and they accept a very limited number of APs, anyhow.

The NY Times also had an article on teacher reactions to the World History test change: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/us/ap-world-history-exam.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

[SanDiegoMom]

On 6/19/2018 at 5:18 PM, SeaConquest said:

So few top tier schools are giving AP credit, I'm starting to see the point less and less. I'm more inclined to DE with our local CC or UC because of the articulation agreements in place. For the price, I'm just not sure AP is worth it when there are other options.

 

They are still giving credit - just not assigning it to specific classes. My daughter took 11 Ap's and got credit for all of it - so even though she doesn't even get gen eds out of it, she fulfills the math requirement and I think there was a US history requirement she got... and if she had down AP Latin she would have gotten that requirement. But even with  taking all the other gen eds she can still graduate in three years and save the last year of the GI bill towards law school or grad school. 

[8filltheheart]

3 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

I stumbled across this provider's opinion about APs and grades. His comments about AP are 2/3 of the way down the page. This goes back to 2010, but thought it was relevant because they aren't an expensive private school, just a homeschool course provider (Scholars Online). http://www.scholarsonline.org/Blog/?p=138

I'm not sure we would pursue AP if it were available. Dd has a good idea where she wants to go to college, and they accept a very limited number of APs, anyhow.

The NY Times also had an article on teacher reactions to the World History test change: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/us/ap-world-history-exam.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Thanks for posting both links.  I read both and both give food for thought.