If you've been watching American Idol...

[SparklyUnicorn]

What were your thoughts when Katy Perry kissed that guy?

 

I thought it was kinda crappy, and I felt uncomfortable when I saw it.  If this had been a male judge and a female contestant, shi* would hit the fan.  From what is circulating on FB (so who knows if true) he was not particularly happy about it.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by SparklyUnicorn

[Bluegoat]

Was it a mushy kiss?

 

I don't have a problem with social kisses, but I think mushy kisses are kind of rude in that setting.  It's one thing to misjudge on a date, but that is not the same as someone you don't know in a social setting.

 

But it's true that women are given more leeway on that then men are.  Madonna did the same to Drake a few years ago IIRC.

[Seasider]

Was it a mushy kiss?

 

I don't have a problem with social kisses, but I think mushy kisses are kind of rude in that setting. It's one thing to misjudge on a date, but that is not the same as someone you don't know in a social setting.

 

But it's true that women are given more leeway on that then men are. Madonna did the same to Drake a few years ago IIRC.

It was an unwanted kiss. Not cute, Katy Perry. I hope she feels significant repercussions from this. IMO, has lost her credibility to make a stand against inappropriate treatment of women in the entertainment industry. She can be a #metoo, but she just put herself on the perpetrator side of the hashtag.

[Bluegoat]

It was an unwanted kiss. Not cute, Katy Perry. I hope she feels significant repercussions from this. IMO, has lost her credibility to make a stand against inappropriate treatment of women in the entertainment industry. She can be a #metoo, but she just put herself on the perpetrator side of the hashtag.

 

Having looked at it, I'd not class it as social, or mushy, but stupid/silly.

 

I think it was very thoughtless of her.  I'd hesitate to conflate that with predatory.

[Seasider]

Having looked at it, I'd not class it as social, or mushy, but stupid/silly.

 

I think it was very thoughtless of her. I'd hesitate to conflate that with predatory.

Wondering how often guys like Matt Lauer thought the same about their actions.

[Bluegoat]

Wondering how often guys like Matt Lauer thought the same about their actions.

 

I'm sure that's true. I don't see anything good coming out of slapping the table predatory on every example of someone doing something stupid, socially thoughtless, or even unkind.

[Seasider]

I'm sure that's true. I don't see anything good coming out of slapping the table predatory on every example of someone doing something stupid, socially thoughtless, or even unkind.

Two key words: power imbalance.

[Matryoshka]

Two key words: power imbalance.

I didn't see that kiss but there was a I saw a clip of another contestant where she was ogling, him asking him out, and basically drooling all over the table at him before he even sang anything. It was completely inappropriate and gross. Really it is about power. It is true that this happens much more with men towards women because men statistically are in more positions of power, but that doesn't make it okay for women in a position of power to do the same thing to men it's still gross and it's still inappropriate, and it makes no sense to for women to call out men on this behavior if they're going to go turn around and do the exact same thing themselves. Gross.

 

I don't know if you saw the woman who's on Shark Tank on Dancing With the Stars? She basically said she was there to be around the hot guys and was ogling and objectifying and feeling up her partner in a really disgusting way. Glad she didn't last more than a couple of weeks. I have never seen any contestant male or female on that show act in that kind manner towards their partner. Being rich and entitled is no excuse for gross behavior from any one.

[Bluegoat]

Two key words: power imbalance.

 

A power imbalance doesn't make something predatory.  That's just not what it means.  

 

Is Katy Perry a predatory person in that way?  It's possible, but I don't know enough about the way she usually behaves to say that seems to be the case.  My impression is she does whatever gets her public attention, but I don't know if she is normally thoughtless about how that affects others.

 

Really, if something is bad or inappropriate or cause problems, there is nothing to be lost from saying why that is without imputing individual motives that aren't accurate.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well she didn't do it behind closed doors no, but it was rather forceful.  I dunno.  It just rubbed me the wrong way.  I would not have been happy about someone doing that to me. 

[Bluegoat]

Well she didn't do it behind closed doors no, but it was rather forceful.  I dunno.  It just rubbed me the wrong way.  I would not have been happy about someone doing that to me. 

 

You could see that he was embarrassed.  Especially when she made him do it again. I think that it was the sense that it was supposed to be sexual was where the line was really crossed for standard social appropriateness.

 

I'm not sure she really noticed though, she seemed pretty caught up in herself.

[SparklyUnicorn]

If she had just stuck to the cheek I woulda thought...eh bit nutters, but not a huge deal either.

 

 

[Seasider]

A power imbalance doesn't make something predatory. That's just not what it means.

 

Is Katy Perry a predatory person in that way? It's possible, but I don't know enough about the way she usually behaves to say that seems to be the case. My impression is she does whatever gets her public attention, but I don't know if she is normally thoughtless about how that affects others.

 

Really, if something is bad or inappropriate or cause problems, there is nothing to be lost from saying why that is without imputing individual motives that aren't accurate.

She did this to the guy immediately before his audition, which she would sit in judgment of. She raised her arms in victory for the stolen kiss. Her sexually aggressive behavior towards contestants has been documented (and flaunted, in additional poor judgment by AI's producers).

 

FWIW, I am not the one who used the term "predatory" so I will not get sidetracked into a discussion of that definition. However, her actions fall into the clearly established parameters of sexual harassment.

 

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf

[SparklyUnicorn]

She did this to the guy immediately before his audition, which she would sit in judgment of. She raised her arms in victory for the stolen kiss. Her sexually aggressive behavior towards contestants has been documented (and flaunted, in additional poor judgment by AI's producers).

 

FWIW, I am not the one who used the term "predatory" so I will not get sidetracked into a discussion of that definition. However, her actions fall into the clearly established parameters of sexual harassment.

 

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf

 

That and she pretty much left him no choice. 

[Peaceseeker]

I read that he was upset because he was waiting to be in a relationship and wanted his first kiss to be special. If this was a male judge and a female contestant there would be an uproar.

 

Not cool Katy Perry. Not cool.

Edited March 15, 2018 by CaliforniaDreaming

[happi duck]

I felt bad for the guy that got kissed.

[1GirlTwinBoys]

What were your thoughts when Katy Perry kissed that guy?

 

I thought it was kinda crappy, and I felt uncomfortable when I saw it.  If this had been a male judge and a female contestant, shi* would hit the fan.  From what is circulating on FB (so who knows if true) he was not particularly happy about it.

I agree with this!  He wanted his first kiss to be special and he comes from a conservative family.  Really unfair that women think it's ok to act like this to a man, but if the roles were reversed it would have been sexual harassment.  

[Bluegoat]

She did this to the guy immediately before his audition, which she would sit in judgment of. She raised her arms in victory for the stolen kiss. Her sexually aggressive behavior towards contestants has been documented (and flaunted, in additional poor judgment by AI's producers).

 

FWIW, I am not the one who used the term "predatory" so I will not get sidetracked into a discussion of that definition. However, her actions fall into the clearly established parameters of sexual harassment.

 

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf

 

If she's doing that crap all the time, it certainly suggests she doesn't care about whether it makes people uncomfortable, rather than not realizing.  I'd say it still looks to me like it's more about creating a certain image of herself as sexually liberated and voracious, rather than actually getting some kind of power trip or sexual satisfaction out of it.

 

I'd say it's pretty much in line with what comes through in her music.

[plansrme]

I don't watch but read about it this morning.  I think it is completely in line with everything else I've seen from Katy Perry:  everything is about Katy Perry.  Certainly a good bit of narcissism is requires to survive and thrive in her line of work, but geez, KP, give it a rest.

[ktgrok]

Yeah, I heard bout this but it was expressed to me as "he couldn't get anyone to kiss him, so she did" and he liked it. Hearing that he was waiting for a relationship and didn't want it paints it in a totally different light. 

[Megbo]

When I saw this happen, I assumed it was orchestrated by the producers. The contestant was not a good singer, so why would they have him sing in front of the judges if it was not to play up his "never been kissed" storyline?

 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/03/15/american-idol-contestant-was-uncomfortable-but-says-katy-perrys-kiss-wasnt-harassment/?utm_term=.3fc47917b408

[SparklyUnicorn]

When I saw this happen, I assumed it was orchestrated by the producers. The contestant was not a good singer, so why would they have him sing in front of the judges if it was not to play up his "never been kissed" storyline?

 

He wasn't that lousy of a singer I don't think.  This year their thing is to not have any terrible singers.

[happi duck]

He wasn't a bad singer he was flustered.

[SparklyUnicorn]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/03/15/american-idol-contestant-was-uncomfortable-but-says-katy-perrys-kiss-wasnt-harassment/?utm_term=.3fc47917b408

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-43415730

 

Which ya know we could go on and on...back and forth in terms of the media.  Some say he was upset.  Some say he was just surprised.  Who knows.

[LucyStoner]

I don’t think that Kato Perry should get a pass for kissing someone without permission, who wasn’t expecting it, didn’t want it, and felt disgusted afterward. It’s as bad as Weinstein, in my opinion.

 

It was sexual harassment, and she’s benefitting from society’s double standard.

I don’t think it’s ok for her to have done this but false equivalencies don’t help. Harvey Weinstein is credibly accused of 100+ incidents, including 18 allegations of rape. So no, I do not think that this is the same or “as bad asâ€. To say so is flatly absurd.

[Seasider]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/03/15/american-idol-contestant-was-uncomfortable-but-says-katy-perrys-kiss-wasnt-harassment/?utm_term=.3fc47917b408

The headline doesn't tell the tale. The end of the article does. This guy is in the classic can't-win position. If he claims harassment, would it hinder his future in the music business? Even if not a great singer, he could have a career as a songwriter, musician, etc. Unless a powerhouse like Perry gets him blacklisted.

 

And is this what we want for our sons, daughters, loved ones? That harassing behavior is defined *only* by the victim? Whose ability to speak plainly without consequences may be compromised?

 

I am honestly not such an outspoken advocate, and roll my eyes at a lot of the ridiculous exhibited by those in the entertainment industry. But, as evident from the last year of media coverage, celebrities, especially women, have taken up the battle cry against such behavior. Perry's behavior here is a black mark against those standing up against harassment and should be called out as such. I sure hope this year's AI viewers are willing to switch channels and let the production company, network, etc know why.

[LucyStoner]

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-43415730

 

Which ya know we could go on and on...back and forth in terms of the media. Some say he was upset. Some say he was just surprised. Who knows.

Both are articles you linked and I linked say more or less the same thing.

[AimeeM]

The kiss scene didn't make me as uncomfortable as her constant drooling and comments towards the nicer-looking male contestants. With one of the young men, it really didn't stop at all -- she was making comments and oogling him for literally the entirety of his audition (and before, and after). 

 

And, yeah -- that never would have been acceptable for the male judges to do. Not only would it likely not have aired had the male judges pulled the same stunts, it's likely they would have been kicked off the panel. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by AimeeM

[Sneezyone]

The headline doesn't tell the tale. The end of the article does. This guy is in the classic can't-win position. If he claims harassment, would it hinder his future in the music business? Even if not a great singer, he could have a career as a songwriter, musician, etc. Unless a powerhouse like Perry gets him blacklisted.

 

And is this what we want for our sons, daughters, loved ones? That harassing behavior is defined *only* by the victim? Whose ability to speak plainly without consequences may be compromised?

 

I am honestly not such an outspoken advocate, and roll my eyes at a lot of the ridiculous exhibited by those in the entertainment industry. But, as evident from the last year of media coverage, celebrities, especially women, have taken up the battle cry against such behavior. Perry's behavior here is a black mark against those standing up against harassment and should be called out as such. I sure hope this year's AI viewers are willing to switch channels and let the production company, network, etc know why.

 

I agree with you that her behavior was completely inappropriate. I don't think she should be a judge engaging in that kind of behavior. I don't condone it when men do it and I don't like it when women do it. Why is it so hard for people to keep their mitts to themselves?!?

 

That said, I don't think that says anything about those who rail against that behavior on the part of powerful men at all. Those advocates didn't kiss the guy or, so far as I know, excuse her behavior. Why would they get a black mark, exactly?

Edited March 15, 2018 by Sneezyone

[LucyStoner]

The headline doesn't tell the tale. The end of the article does. This guy is in the classic can't-win position. If he claims harassment, would it hinder his future in the music business? Even if not a great singer, he could have a career as a songwriter, musician, etc. Unless a powerhouse like Perry gets him blacklisted.

 

And is this what we want for our sons, daughters, loved ones? That harassing behavior is defined *only* by the victim? Whose ability to speak plainly without consequences may be compromised?

 

I am honestly not such an outspoken advocate, and roll my eyes at a lot of the ridiculous exhibited by those in the entertainment industry. But, as evident from the last year of media coverage, celebrities, especially women, have taken up the battle cry against such behavior. Perry's behavior here is a black mark against those standing up against harassment and should be called out as such. I sure hope this year's AI viewers are willing to switch channels and let the production company, network, etc know why.

I didn’t provide the link to make a point or argue that this was ok.

 

To me, his denial that it’s harassment could be tied to the power differential between him and her and/or the show, documents he probably signed to be on the show and/or the false but pervasive cultural narrative that men can’t be sexually harassed or assaulted. Or it could be that he geniunely feels he wasn’t harassed. Him saying that, for whatever reason or likely mix of reasons, doesn’t make what she did ok.

 

I don’t think that Katy Perry’s actions were acceptable.

Edited March 15, 2018 by LucyStoner

[sheryl]

I actually was flipping channels (unusual as I don't watch "a lot" of tv) and stumbled across this scenario.  I'm not a KP fan, at all, but I thought she meant it in jest. But, I don't think he appreciated it, at all.  It was inappropriate imo. 

[Seasider]

I agree with you that her behavior was completely inappropriate. I don't think she should be a judge engaging in that kind of behavior. I don't condone it when men do it and I don't like it when women do it. Why is it so hard for people to keep their mitts to themselves?!?

 

That said, I don't think that says anything about those who rail against that behavior on the part of powerful men at all. Those advocates didn't kiss the guy or, so far as I know, excuse her behavior. Why would they get a black mark, exactly?

Sorry if I confused. I did not mean to say that she put a black mark against the whole movement. I meant to communicate that she was acting in a way that reveals she herself loses credibility if she wants to be in league with those standing against harassment. I'd think one of the strong women standing against harassment would have a hard time endorsing Perry's AI antics. That she is counter to their message.

 

Hope that better communicates my thought.

[Sneezyone]

Sorry if I confused. I did not mean to say that she put a black mark against the whole movement. I meant to communicate that she was acting in a way that reveals she herself loses credibility if she wants to be in league with those standing against harassment. I'd think one of the strong women standing against harassment would have a hard time endorsing Perry's AI antics. That she is counter to their message.

 

Hope that better communicates my thought.

 

Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[SKL]

Anything she has said or will say about sexual harassment or related topics lost whatever credibility it had.

 

Same goes for anyone who gives her a pass because she's just a woman and he's a man.

 

To be taken seriously on an important issue, you have to show you understand it.  Saying it's bad and then doing it proves she does not understand it and should not be listened to.  It also raises the question of how many other people in the movement similarly fail to understand or to actually care about the substantive issue.

 

For those who say it's not comparable because she hasn't done it often etc. - well, most men would never report that, because men aren't supposed to be in that position; they are supposed to like it etc.  In all likelihood this was not her first unsolicited sexual touch.

 

To the comments that she assumed he liked it, or she was just being funny - well I'll bet lots of male sexual harassers could (and do) say the same.

Edited March 15, 2018 by SKL

[SKL]

And the idea that she thought the viewers would like it etc. - this helps illustrate why many people say the entertainment industry has encouraged the cultural ills they are now supposedly fighting against.  All the things they do because it sells.  Cha ching.  Honestly very few of them have any credibility regardless of whether they have had an actual "me too" moment.

[vonfirmath]

And the idea that she thought the viewers would like it etc. - this helps illustrate why many people say the entertainment industry has encouraged the cultural ills they are now supposedly fighting against.  All the things they do because it sells.  Cha ching.  Honestly very few of them have any credibility regardless of whether they have had an actual "me too" moment.

 

I'm imaging that young man wishes he had never mentioned it and created an opportunity for them to use it against him like that. Because however he might rationalize it in his head, there's a part of him that will know this special thing was stolen from him when he finally does meet the young lady he might want to one day marry.  That in front of a national audience, he had a judge steal a kiss on him and he did not have the presence of mind or fortitude, at that moment, to step away, or just say "No. I told you. I'm saving that for marriage."

[SKL]

I'm imaging that young man wishes he had never mentioned it and created an opportunity for them to use it against him like that. Because however he might rationalize it in his head, there's a part of him that will know this special thing was stolen from him when he finally does meet the young lady he might want to one day marry.  That in front of a national audience, he had a judge steal a kiss on him and he did not have the presence of mind or fortitude, at that moment, to step away, or just say "No. I told you. I'm saving that for marriage."

 

Well if he had pushed her away on camera, he would look like the bad guy for sure.

 

[Above The Rowan]

I think she's skeevy. If that were a male judge doing that to a young female contestant, it would be a much different reaction.

 

The fact that many people have said 'she was just being her', or 'I don't think she meant anything by it' - is exactly the problem. It's hard enough to make people understand what sexual harassment means, or how serious it is, without downplaying a blatant example of it because it was just Katy Being Katy. I am so proud of all the people who've spoken up due to the MeToo movement, all the people who feel brave and supported to tell their stories - - this seems like a slap in the face to those people.

 

Like...Is it "MeTooButNotYou" ? I've seen so many (on social media, not here) saying "ah what guy wouldn't want to get kissed by Katy Perry?" Well...this guy didn't want to be.

 

I think it's gross all around.

[happi duck]

I was surprised it made the edit...that no one said "wait a minute" after some time passed.

[IfIOnly]

I was bothered by her treatment of some of the male contestants as well. Seriously gross. Also she behaves like she's super high on the show. It's Paula Abdul as an AI judge all over again. Weeeeird.

[Bluegoat]

And the idea that she thought the viewers would like it etc. - this helps illustrate why many people say the entertainment industry has encouraged the cultural ills they are now supposedly fighting against.  All the things they do because it sells.  Cha ching.  Honestly very few of them have any credibility regardless of whether they have had an actual "me too" moment.

 

One thing I wonder sometimes with reality tv is how much is a set-up to create controversy.  In this case, I can imagine the whole thing being orchestrated, but what I think is more likely is that they told Perry to sex it up and be all over the contestants.

 

Which doesn't make it appropriate, but I think it suggests a somewhat different nature to the problem, in that it becomes as much about money and fame and viewers -  as it is about sexuality.  

 

I think that's been a feature of a lot of the Hollywood scandals, and is why talking about harassment on a personal level is unlikely to be that meaningful in that context.  You can't commoditize sex and at the same time expect people not to treat it like a commodity.

[IfIOnly]

One thing I wonder sometimes with reality tv is how much is a set-up to create controversy. In this case, I can imagine the whole thing being orchestrated, but what I think is more likely is that they told Perry to sex it up and be all over the contestants.

 

Which doesn't make it appropriate, but I think it suggests a somewhat different nature to the problem, in that it becomes as much about money and fame and viewers - as it is about sexuality.

 

I think that's been a feature of a lot of the Hollywood scandals, and is why talking about harassment on a personal level is unlikely to be that meaningful in that context. You can't commoditize sex and at the same time expect people not to treat it like a commodity.

She's a big star but also a train wreck to watch in every interview or whatever I've seen her in since her most recent album dropped. If not orchestrated, I'm sure they picked her to add drama. Edited March 16, 2018 by IfIOnly

[mamaraby]

One thing I wonder sometimes with reality tv is how much is a set-up to create controversy. In this case, I can imagine the whole thing being orchestrated,

I imagine it was orchestrated as is all reality TV even the stuff that might seem “ok.â€

https://www.salon.com/2018/02/17/i-am-a-master-chef-survivor/

[kitten18]

I was surprised it made the edit...that no one said "wait a minute" after some time passed.

I think it was 100% scripted and possibly not even her idea.

I’m not surprised that the producers put in something that they scripted.

[Matryoshka]

I think it was 100% scripted and possibly not even her idea.

I’m not surprised that the producers put in something that they scripted.

You think they scripted her to be lecherous and leering and pretty much proposition the other contestants too? Because that appears to be a thing. Either way they should have her stop. It's creepy.

[IfIOnly]

We've never been fans of AI, but we do like to watch The Voice, which is more family friendly and a classier and better produced show overall. It's been a fun season so far because Kelly Clarkson, who was a winner on AI and on of the few winners of such a show to have a successful career following, is a judge. That girl can sang!

[kitten18]

You think they scripted her to be lecherous and leering and pretty much proposition the other contestants too? Because that appears to be a thing. Either way they should have her stop. It's creepy.

Yes, that is what they want from her. If they didn’t want that they wouldn’t film it or it wouldn’t make the cut. They have dozens of hours of film for every episode. They air what they want the audience to see.

[Matryoshka]

Yes, that is what they want from her. If they didn’t want that they wouldn’t film it or it wouldn’t make the cut. They have dozens of hours of film for every episode. They air what they want the audience to see.

Seems appallingly tone-deaf considering all the #metoo stuff. Creepy aggressively lecherous behavior is just that, regardless of the gender of the person being a creep.

 

"I was just kidding around", "It was just harmless flirting", "I thought she liked/wanted it"... Isn't that the sexual harasser's excuse list - verbatim??

[WoolC]

Seems appallingly tone-deaf considering all the #metoo stuff. Creepy aggressively lecherous behavior is just that, regardless of the gender of the person being a creep.

 

"I was just kidding around", "It was just harmless flirting", "I thought she liked/wanted it"... Isn't that the sexual harasser's excuse list - verbatim??

While this is true, these reality shows only care that people are talking about them. It's making headlines, getting clicks and buzz and some people will tune in just so they can see what the fuss is about and add their condemnation to the pile. The show still wins if the ratings are coming in.

 

I didn't watch the show, but when I started seeing headlines about this situation, my first thought was this is a publicity and ratings stunt. They don't care how they generate views as long as they get them. I think Katy's behavior is inexcusable, but so is AI's and reality tv in general.

 

The bachelor franchise pulled a similar stunt last year with filming being shut down due to accusations from a producer (not a contestant) about lack of consent in a sexual situation, only to resume filming and increase their ratings even further. Bad publicity is good publicity for these shows.